Guest Posting by Ira Glickstein
Santa brought us a new Sunspot prediction to be added to NASA’s incredibly high series of at least five ill-fated predictions starting in 2006. NASA’s latest peak Sunspot Number for Solar Cycle #24 (SC24) is down 60% from their original, but it still seems a bit too high, judging by David Archibald’s recent WUWT posting that analogizes SC24 and SC25 to SC5 and SC6 which peaked around 50, during the cold period (Dalton minimum) of the early 1800’s.
According to Yogi Berra “It’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future.” Team leader Dr. Mausumi Dikpati of NASA’s National Center for Atmospheric Research and Solar physicist Dr. David Hathaway of the National Space Science & Technology Center have most likely learned that lesson well, having predicted, back in March 2006, that SC24 would start by the end of 2006 or early 2007 and would peak 30% to 50% higher than SC23, which would yield counts of 156 to 180. The latest prediction is 64 (I love their precision :^) but I predict it will have to be reduced further, kind of like an after-Christmas sale :^)
[NOTE added 28 Dec 9:45PM. See clarification comment by: John from CA, December 28, 2010 at 1:44 pm. I was mistaken in conflating NASA with NOAA in the graphic and discussion, wrongly assuming they coordinated their Sunspot predictions. The base chart, as labeled, is from NOAA but the predictions are from Dikpati and/or Hathaway at NASA, but later ones, on a NASA website, may be personal, not official. Thanks John from CA and sorry for my ignorance of government organization. Ira]
My graphic traces the downward progression of NASA Sunspot predictions, superimposed over NASA’s NOAA’s latest chart of actual Sunspot Numbers. SC23 is shown from its peak in 2000 to its demise in 2009, along with the rise of SC24 up to the latest November 2010 data. The red hoop, peaking at 90, is left over from their previous prediction and should be replaced by their new prediction in January. [Click graphic for larger version].
As indicated, SC23 peaked at a count of 120 around January 2000. It is instructive to read NASA’s March 2006 predictions (and somewhat humorous until you realize we paid for it). Some direct quotes [emphasis added]:
“The next sunspot cycle will be 30% to 50% stronger than the previous one,” [Dikpati] says… Dikpati’s prediction is unprecedented. In nearly-two centuries since the 11-year sunspot cycle was discovered, scientists have struggled to predict the size of future maxima—and failed. Solar maxima can be intense, as in 1958, or barely detectable, as in 1805, obeying no obvious pattern.
The key to the mystery, Dikpati realized years ago, is a conveyor belt on the sun…
Hathaway … explains: “First, remember what sunspots are–tangled knots of magnetism generated by the sun’s inner dynamo. A typical sunspot exists for just a few weeks. Then it decays, leaving behind a ‘corpse’ of weak magnetic fields.”…
“The top of the conveyor belt skims the surface of the sun, sweeping up the magnetic fields of old, dead sunspots. The ‘corpses’ are dragged down at the poles to a depth of 200,000 km where the sun’s magnetic dynamo can amplify them. Once the corpses (magnetic knots) are reincarnated (amplified), they become buoyant and float back to the surface.” Presto—new sunspots!
All this happens with massive slowness. “It takes about 40 years for the belt to complete one loop,” says Hathaway. The speed varies “anywhere from a 50-year pace (slow) to a 30-year pace (fast).”
When the belt is turning “fast,” it means that lots of magnetic fields are being swept up, and that a future sunspot cycle is going to be intense. This is a basis for forecasting: “The belt was turning fast in 1986-1996,” says Hathaway. “Old magnetic fields swept up then should re-appear as big sunspots in 2010-2011.”
Like most experts in the field, Hathaway has confidence in the conveyor belt model and agrees with Dikpati that the next solar maximum should be a doozy. But he disagrees with one point. Dikpati’s forecast puts Solar Max at 2012. Hathaway believes it will arrive sooner, in 2010 or 2011.
“History shows that big sunspot cycles ‘ramp up’ faster than small ones,” he says. “I expect to see the first sunspots of the next cycle appear in late 2006 or 2007—and Solar Max to be underway by 2010 or 2011.”
Who’s right? Time will tell. Either way, a storm is coming.
Did Dikpati and Hathaway honestly believed they had cracked the Sunspot code that had eluded science for two centuries? In hindsight, we all know they were wrong in their heady predictions of a “doozy”. (A doozy, according to Webster is “an extraordinary one of its kind”. NASA expected SC24 to be extraordinarily intense. But it is shaping up to be extraordinarily weak, so they at least get credit for using the correct word :^)
But, were they being honest? Well, Hathaway had long been aware of the relationship between Sunspot counts and climate, writing:
Early records of sunspots indicate that the Sun went through a period of inactivity in the late 17th century. Very few sunspots were seen on the Sun from about 1645 to 1715. … This period of solar inactivity also corresponds to a climatic period called the ‘Little Ice Age’ when rivers that are normally ice-free froze and snow fields remained year-round at lower altitudes. There is evidence that the Sun has had similar periods of inactivity in the more distant past. The connection between solar activity and terrestrial climate is an area of on-going research.
Is it possible that their prediction was skewed to the high side by the prevalent opinion, in the Inconvenient Truth year of 2006, that Global Warming was “settled science”. Could it be that they felt pressured to please their colleagues and superiors by predicting a Sunspot doozy that would presage a doozy of a warm spell?
It seems to me that NASA has a long history of delayed Sunspot predictions, particularly when the trend was downward. They seem to have waited until the actual counts forced them to do so.
Have a look at the graphic. SC23 SC24 [thanks Steeptown December 27, 2010 at 11:37 pm] was supposed to start by early 2007, but it did not. Yet, it took them until October 2008 to revise their prediction of a later start and lower peak (137) and then they dropped it further in January 2009 (predicting a peak of 104 to occur in early 2012).
I am not any kind of expert on Sunspots, yet it was clear to me, nearly two years ago, that 104 was way too high so I predicted a peak of 80 and moved the date of that peak to mid-2013. NASA eventually reduced their peak to 90, and just this month down to 64, and they moved the peak date to mid-2013. My latest prediction is 60, to occur in early 2014, but I believe I may still be a bit too high.
With apologies to Pete Seeger:
Where have all the sunspots gone? NA-SA search-ing,
Where have all the sunspots go-ne? NASA don’t know.
Where have all the sunspots gone? Global Cooling, anyone?
Will NASA ever learn? Will NA-SA ev-er learn?
Where has all the carbon gone? Green-house gas-es,
Where has all the carbon go-ne? Come down as snow!
Where has all the carbon gone? Heating houses, everyone,
Will NASA ever learn? Will NA-SA ev-er learn?
Where has Global Warming gone? Point not tip-ping,
Where has Global Warming go-ne? Its gonna slow.
Where has Global Warming gone? Normal seasons of the Sun,
Will NASA ever learn? Will NA-SA ev-er learn?
Werner Brozek says:
December 28, 2010 at 1:45 pm
~
whoa whoa whoa, the 7 theories?
Try again, some astrophysicists are leaning in the direction of the interstellar material we are embedded (at any given epoch) as a cause-effect relationship to solar cycle variations. So.. you forgot one here.
If the interstellar material can magnetically distort the heliosphere and if speed, temp and density can push the heliospheres termination shock in past those super jovian planets you refer to .. then show me your planetary theory at work here. As for that trefoil thingy, looks more like gyration too me and makes perfect sense too as all stars must have some sort of gyration to orbit within a galaxy warped by gratitational waves. So the planets are mimicing ..
Man o man sure hope you guys got the telescope thingy done and over geeeeeesh..hmm starting to sound like one of those unhapply women.
Leif Svalgaard says:
December 28, 2010 at 3:35 pm
John from CA says:
December 28, 2010 at 1:44 pm
Are Dikpati and Hathaway on NOAA’s Solar Cycle 24 Prediction Panel?
Yes they were.
===========
It would be pretty funny if the consensus opinion of the Solar Cycle 24 Prediction Panel was Dikpati and Hathaway which would make the panel 3 people but I highly doubt its the case.
“Note, this is a consensus opinion, not a unanimous decision. A supermajority of the panel did agree to this prediction.”
Ira’s statement about the red “hoop” is still inaccurate. Is it April 1st Ira?
[Reply] Leif was the 3rd member of the panel. RT-mod
Enneagram says:
December 28, 2010 at 11:52 am
…That would mean to send our friend Vukcevic to the tribunal of “Holy Inquisition”, with all its consequences. And that would be no joke.
related to:
John from CA says:
December 28, 2010 at 9:45 am
=========
He has some very interesting observations. The geomagnetic equator showing symmetrical atmospheric patterns jumped out at me as a very odd occurrence.
“Holy Inquisition”, with all its consequences — maybe a scratches here and there but hardly consequential unless he rolls it into AGW dogma.
[Reply] Leif was the 3rd member of the panel. RT-mod
LOL, how can you have a “supermajority” consensus of opinion with three people on the panel? If its the case, they have a great sense of humor : )
John from CA says:
December 28, 2010 at 4:50 pm
“Note, this is a consensus opinion, not a unanimous decision. A supermajority of the panel did agree to this prediction.”
[Reply] Leif was the 3rd member of the panel. RT-mod
There were ~12 members on the panel. One member did not agree to the low prediction.
Dr. Svalgaard, would i be correct in understanding, that just because we cannot see a sunspot, that it still may exist?
Leif Svalgaard says:
December 28, 2010 at 5:31 pm
[Reply] Leif was the 3rd member of the panel. RT-mod
There were ~12 members on the panel. One member did not agree to the low prediction.
=======
I’m guessing Ira and now RT-mod are playing one of Anthony’s How many things can you find wrong with this post games.
DeNihilist says:
December 28, 2010 at 5:37 pm
Dr. Svalgaard, would i be correct in understanding, that just because we cannot see a sunspot, that it still may exist?
One can be a bit more precise. Once the magnetic field falls below 1500 Gauss the active region is so warm [stronger magnetic fields divert the heat flow from below away from the region] that there is no difference in temperature between the region and the surrounding photosphere and thus no contrast, making the region difficult to observe [‘invisible’] so we don’t see a sunspot in the region. But the region is still there.
I’m please to hear from Leif who was there that the panel was not bent by external interests. That is very good news and I accept it as true.
You have indicated they thought they had had a breakthrough in understanding the Sun’s magnetic conveyor belt system and honestly thought we were in for a spectacularly intense cycle on that totally scientific basis. Great!
However, Leif, was there any influence from the 2006 inconvenient truth movie and the accompanying zeitgeist? At the time, there was great excitement that climate models had been perfected and “the science was settled” that we were in for some potentially “tipping point” serious runaway warming. Could that have affected the prediction to drift to the high side?
Ira Glickstein says:
December 28, 2010 at 6:30 pm
However, Leif, was there any influence from the 2006 zeitgeist and the excitement that climate models had been perfected and “the science was settled” that we were in for some potentially “tipping point” serous runaway warming. Could that have affected the prediction to drift to the high side?
There was great excitement about the new dynamo model, but it had nothing to do with climate science, tipping points, and other assorted nonsense. BTW, I think that warmists would not like a strong cycle which could strengthen the argument for natural causes, so such ‘influence’ would go the other way. To my knowledge there was no explicit influence of any kind outside of solar physics. It may be of interest that the first vote was 9 high, 2 low, so strong was the hope that perhaps the models finally had the problem licked. As time wore on and we examined the evidence [and the assumptions in the models] more closely, the pendulum swung inexorably the other way. A strong argument against a large cycle was actually given by Hathaway, namely that a strong cycle would be expected to come early and since cycle 24 was slow in coming it would not be strong…
“The base chart, as labeled is from NOAA but the predictions are from Dikpati and/or Hathaway at NASA, but later ones are personal, not official. Thanks John from CA and sorry for my ignorance of government organization. Ira]”
======
Hi Ira,
As Anthony is inclined to do, I thought you were intentionally posting some “assumptions” for us to unravel. Lots of flaws but the tone of the post is great fun.
A couple of points so NASA, NOAA, NCAR, NSSTC, and especially NOAA/Space Weather Prediction Center (SWPC) aren’t offended.
NCAR is not a US Government Agency and Dr. Mausumi Dikpati’s predictions and involvement on the SWPC Solar Cycle 24 Prediction Panel may been his own and not NCAR approved respectively.
Dr. David Hathaway’s solar predictions website (on a NASA server with NASA logos associated with all content) is his personal website and NOT NASA authorized content nor authorized NASA predictions.
As Dr. Svalgaard points out:
“We don’t have two ‘official’ groups. There is no NASA prediction. What people refer to as the NASA prediction is Hathaway’s own private prediction. His work on this is not even funded any more. For actual operational use, NASA relies on ‘our’ prediction [by ‘our’ I mean the one issued by Ken Schatten using the method we [Schatten, Scherrer, Svalgaard, Wilcox] suggested back in 1978.]”
NOAA/Space Weather Prediction Center (SWPC) was a panel of approximately 12 distinguished members. Dr. Dikpati and Dr. Hathaway were but 2 of the distinguished panel.
The post leans, in my opinion, too heavily on Dr. Dikpati and Dr. Hathaway predictions and makes assumes in the face of Dr. Svalgaard’s last statement:
“There were ~12 members on the panel. One member did not agree to the low prediction.”
The time frames you’re presenting don’t do the Agencies, Organizations, the distinguished members of the SWPC panel, nor the topic true justice.
John from CA says:
December 28, 2010 at 7:39 pm
Dr. Mausumi Dikpati’s predictions and involvement on the SWPC Solar Cycle 24 Prediction Panel may been his own and not NCAR approved respectively.
Her own
“The important element is the distance: move Jupiter in to an orbit one tenth its present size, and its [tidal] effect will go up a thousand times,”
Heh. As I noted, that would put Jupiter inside the orbit of Venus (which probably wouldn’t last very long!), and actually reverse the sign (direction) of the gravitational/tidal influence. I rather expect it would also induce Earth to do a flyby of Jupiter on its way into the Sun.
😉
Brian H says:
December 28, 2010 at 8:04 pm
Heh. As I noted, that would put Jupiter inside the orbit of Venus
Amazing what one can get away with in a thought experiment.
Dr. Svalgaard says – {One can be a bit more precise. Once the magnetic field falls below 1500 Gauss the active region is so warm [stronger magnetic fields divert the heat flow from below away from the region] that there is no difference in temperature between the region and the surrounding photosphere and thus no contrast, making the region difficult to observe [‘invisible’] so we don’t see a sunspot in the region. But the region is still there.}
So then my next question would be, during a minimum like the Dalton, then the actual phenomena could still be happening, but just unobservable?
Again, thanx for taking the time to answer our questions, I really appreciate it.
Leif Svalgaard says:
December 28, 2010 at 8:13 am
“For actual operational use, NASA relies on ‘our’ prediction”
What does “operational use” mean?
Glenn says:
December 28, 2010 at 9:10 pm
What does “operational use” mean?
As I explained earlier:
NASA (Goddard) uses our model, to undertake the calculations for its orbital planning — for example, they decided to refurbish the Hubble Space Telescope, rather than design a special multi-multi-million dollar mission to bring it down, since the Goddard Flight dynamics analysis branch figured out, that Hubble would “fly over” solar cycle 24 — Our prediction said that the cycle would be weak, and thus the drag too small to bring it down in the next decade) so, Hubble now has a lot more life to it, because NASA believed in our prediction and kept Hubble up.
DeNihilist says:
December 28, 2010 at 9:01 pm
So then my next question would be, during a minimum like the Dalton, then the actual phenomena could still be happening, but just unobservable?
Since IMHO the Dalton was not a true Grand Minimum, the L&P effect probably did not happen then [as sunspots were observed]. During the Maunder Minimum I speculate that L&P effect must have been present. Now all this is very speculative. We don’t know if L&P will continue the next 50 years [to make for a Grand Minimum – the Eddy Minimum] or is it will fizzle and things will revert to ‘normal’, making the coming cycle(s) weak, but not exceptionally so.
If this whole thread is about the SC24 Max, then let’s talk about where that lies.
I’m not too thrilled about the chances of it breaking 50.
42 is fine, as Carsten said, but even that may be optimistic.
The Sun is not doing so well, 2 years into the cycle, and what’s the matter with SDO?
DeNihilist says:
December 28, 2010 at 9:01 pm
The EUV footpring of such failing/failed sunspots is also very subdued.
Those AR’s (as seen in the SDO composites) are probably the last thing we will be able to see when the L&P kicks in full.
btw… what the devil is taking SDO so long to get their images back online?
Leif Svalgaard says:
December 28, 2010 at 7:57 pm
John from CA says:
December 28, 2010 at 7:39 pm
Dr. Mausumi Dikpati’s predictions and involvement on the SWPC Solar Cycle 24 Prediction Panel may been his own and not NCAR approved respectively.
Her own
Dr S is exactly right. Would you mind watching those gender benders please.
Leif Svalgaard says:
December 28, 2010 at 7:57 pm
John from CA says:
December 28, 2010 at 7:39 pm
Dr. Mausumi Dikpati’s predictions and involvement on the SWPC Solar Cycle 24 Prediction Panel may been his own and not NCAR approved respectively.
Her own
=======
Dr. Svalgaard,
I should have done proper research.
Respectfully,
John from CA
rbateman says:
December 28, 2010 at 10:15 pm
btw… what the devil is taking SDO so long to get their images back online?
Still having disk problems. Lesson: if you scale up a complex system, you also scale up its errors.
If L&P are correct, the sunspot number is meaningless, so we need to predict and watch F10.7.
Jcarels says:
December 28, 2010 at 6:45 am
The layman sunspot people want to count sunspots like in the 1700 that’s why they use today’s SOHO and SDO images…
Besides that they never observed the sun with a telescope of that time for a long period of time. How do they that their comparison holds up? They even never looked at the sun through an telescope of that time!
An recent telescope has different glass types and coatings than the old ones. If they want to do it properly they have to use an original telescope of that time.
That is why a threshold is in place, it reduces the SOHO and SDO views closer to what Wolf would have seen as well as removing the Waldmeier step.
Leif Svalgaard says:
December 28, 2010 at 7:55 am
It amazes me the length Leif will go to to spread his propaganda. When cornered he spurts out wads of information and data that is a smokescreen designed to cover reality.
Leif’s own paper states very clearly that the modern count is 22% higher than the Wolfer values. So he cannot say we are comparing apples. There are 3 points that he cannot argue against.
1. Waldmeier introduced a large step in the counting process in 1945 that has not been accounted for.
2. The modern 150mm telescope picks up smaller specks than the Wolf 80mm telescope.
3. Wolfer when applying his .6 factor did not compare cycles that were part of a grand minimum. The extra speck ratio that Leif attributes to L&P (whatever that is?) is not allowed for in the factor.
Wolf reconstructed SC5/6 from older records and then matched against proxy records. The sunspot group count and all proxy records agree with the outcome. Also Sc6 had plenty of observers. We have no way of knowing Wolf’s exact threshold size but I think the LSC is very close.
No reproduction can be perfect but the LSC is definitely closer to the Wolf method than the modern mess that we have today.
Some advice for readers. Don’t believe everything Leif says….he has an agenda.
Thanks leif, for putting up with us!