Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
In response to my recent post about whether we could feed more people if everyone were vegetarians (I say no), a poster named Marissa wrote a heartfelt paean to Veganism.
Figure 1. Perhaps the world’s best-known adherent of a strict Vegan diet.
Vegans are a kind of fundamentalist sect of born-again vegetarians who eat exclusively vegetables, no eggs, no fish, no milk, no cheese, no insects. Merissa’s post starts off as follows:
Ok, I don’t think I have read one comment from a true vegan on this thread. Well I am Vegan and let me share with you the benefits that I have experienced …
Merissa follows with a list of the things s/he has gotten from following a Vegan diet. This stirred me to write again about why people eat meat.
Merissa, I think that it is great that you have found a way of eating that works for you. The problem is not that some people find that vegetarianism or Veganism works for them. That’s a good thing. I say more power to you. You should eat exactly what feels best for your life and your body. I ate vegetarian for three years myself.
Now perhaps it’s something in the vegetables that causes the problem, I don’t know. But all too often, recent initiates into the mysteries of some branch of Vegetableism then feel compelled to tell me how much better the world would be if every single person ate, not what works for them, but what works for the Vegetableist in question. And this is all too often accompanied by the claim that we could feed more people if humans only ate vegetables.
For the host of reasons I listed in the previous post, people around the planet have found it advantageous to domesticate and keep (and eat) animals. Perhaps some random Vegan knows more about how to scratch out a living in a hostile world than do all of the billions of poor farmers and householders around the planet, maybe they’re all wrong to keep chickens and pigs and such, maybe we might be able to feed more people if we were all vegetarians … but I doubt it very much. The farmers and the poor around the planet aren’t that stupid.
It has occasionally been my good fortune to work and spend time with very poor people, the dollar a day people, the people at the very opposite end of the economic spectrum from me, or you, or anyone rich enough to own a computer or a pair of nice shoes. There’s a lot to learn at that end of the economy, including about people’s diets. To understand the position of meat in the global diet, you need to remember that most people don’t eat the same as you and me and the folks who own computers and nice shoes. Most people on the planet are already vegetarians most of the time … only not by choice. For most people, meat is a delicacy. It is not on the menu very often.
Once when I was working in Liberia, in West Africa, they were burning a local sugar cane field. The whole village came out with clubs. They surrounded the fire in a long line. When the fire chased the cane rats out of the burning cane, they clubbed the rats and took them home and ate them. I found out that cane rat fried up in slightly over-the-hill orange colored oil palm oil (no refrigeration) tastes pretty good, although for a couple days afterwards I belched more rancid palm oil fumes than an out-of-tune biodiesel Volkwagen …
And of course cane rat is considered a good thing, meat for the family.
Here’s the reason why cane rat is a delicacy, why kids lined up to get some of the meat. The villagers that eat that meat are stronger and healthier and more resistant to disease and quicker to heal and faster growing than the villagers who don’t eat that meat. Simple as that. The chance to eat meat doesn’t come up often. When that chance comes up, those people that eat the meat improve their chances of living compared to those who don’t eat meat.
Our bodies know that and have known it since forever. You could see it in the kids’ eyes, they could smell it, they wanted it, their bodies responded without conscious thought. Meat makes you stronger, it provides a host of vitamins and minerals, it is powerful food. Which is why people eat meat, in Africa and around the planet. It increases their odds of survival in a harsh and unforgiving environment. So they ate cane rats.
Here’s another story from another time and place, with the same subject. One late afternoon, through a series of misunderstandings and coincidences, I found myself sitting in the welcome shade of some trees in a railroad yard in Mexico, waiting to hop a freight train. Two young boys came by, brothers the older one said, perhaps four and seven years old. Built on the usual blueprint of the poor, undersized and skinny. I struck up a conversation in Spanish with the seven year old. The younger boy never said a word. He just trailed a few feet behind his older brother, and watched everything with black shiny eyes.
The older boy had a slingshot made of a tree branch “Y” fork, with a dozen or more ordinary rubber bands of all sizes and colors attached to each fork of the “Y” and to the leather pouch.
I asked what they were doing. The boy said they came to the railroad lines because there were perfectly round stones for his slingshot in the railroad bed. He showed me how hard it was to pull his slingshot. Oh, I suppose you are the grán cazador, the mighty hunter, I jested.
Si, Señor, yo soy, he explained very soberly in Spanish, yes, Sir, I am.
My skepticism must have shown in my eyes. Mira, he said, watch.
He searched around, picked up and discarded a few stones, finally settling on exactly the right one. He put it in the pouch of the slingshot, and started walking around and gazing intently up into the tree branches above us. He stopped, pulled back and let fly.
There was a “poof” sound up in the tree, and a bird the size of a small robin, that I didn’t even know was in the tree, tumbled down at my feet. He and his tiny brother both jumped on it, and he twisted its neck in an economical, practised fashion.
With my mouth hanging open, I hastened to assure him that I was wrong to doubt his word. I said he was indeed a skilled hunter. I asked what he would do with the bird. Oh, para comer, señor, it’s for food, sir, he said. I said are you going to take it home to your mamá to cook it? Oh, no, Señor, somos siete, he said … oh no, Sir … there’s seven of us kids … I nodded my understanding.
He and his short confederate scurried off. They returned with some grass and twigs. He pulled out a tattered matchbook and lit a fire. In no time he had plucked that bird, gutted it, skewered it, and had it cooking over the fire. I watched in astonishment.
I walked to the corner where an old lady was frying tacos on a dished-top tin can stove. I bought a few potato tacos the size of silver dollars. She didn’t sell meat tacos, poor people don’t buy meat tacos. She made tacos with potatoes and tacos with beans. I brought them back, and gave most of them to the midget hunter and his mini-amigo. And God damn it, he wanted me to take half the bird, but I could see their eyes caressing it.
So I told them I could only eat a small bite on account of my liver. That being the common explanation there for any physical infirmity, the older boy nodded sagely. He agreed that a man has to take care of his liver, you can’t be too careful. He said his liver was fine, thanks, and they happily polished off that bird. I bought another round of potato tacos to celebrate, which had similarly short lifetimes.
And you know, as the two of them sat there content under the tree, sucking on the bird bones and watching the sun set, somehow I just didn’t have the heart to tell that small man and his smaller brother-in-arms just how much better off he and his little bitty buddy and the rest of the world would be if only they and everyone else became vegans …
My best to all,
w.
[UPDATE] Twelve years after I wrote this, science is finally catching up with what every kid on a cattle ranch knows … see “Going Vegan Isn’t the Most Sustainable Option for Humanity“.
Willis Eschenbach says:
October 20, 2010 at 11:50 am
My suggestion would be to try the balut, other than the crunch it’s quite tasty …
w.
—————
Willis and George,
In my travels in Asia i’ve done the fresh snakes blood (extracted from live snake in front of your eyes to prove freshness), monkey, dog, cat, balut, uni, etc. Generally no problem.
Hey, I got used the fresh raw (sushi) sea-cucumber intestines that are not purged of their contents of undigested material and feces.
But there were two things that I just couldn’t handle. Shudder. Chinese Cho dofu and Japanese natto. In the former it is the god awful decomposing body smell I couldn’t handle. In the latter it is the lumpy texture of snot that induces a little nausea that I couldn’t handle.
: )
John
@Willis
re; making a joke calling vegans fundamentalist and born-again.
Then I suppose you should take it in good humor if someone calls you a blood thirsty savage removed from cannabilism only by virtue of cultural taboo. But hey, at least in your culture you draw the line at primates which is modestly more enlightened than some human cultures. Ha ha. Don’t forget to laugh. It’s just a joke.
Just my 2 pennyworth. I have been a vegan for 2 years after having surgery for a bowel disorder where it was suggested I cut down on meat and dairy products. As I didn’t eat very much anyway, it was a nobrainer. In those 2 years, I have got to know a number of other vegans and without exception (other than me) they all think the rest of the world should be (vegans) and all believe in catastrophic AGW. I dunno why the these things go hand in hand, but for my part it is just a diet that suits my system and not a complete way of life. So we’re not all of the radical hair-shirt brigade but I wish I could find others who aren’t!! And yes I do have to take 1 supplement a day to make sure I get enough iodine, and also to make sure I don’t look as pasty and unwell as the rest of them! Incidently, I have never felt fitter and I am 51, so it aint doing me too much harm!
“All flesh is grass, is not onely metaphorically, but literally true, for all those creatures we behold, are but the herbs of the field, digested into flesh in them, or more remotely carnified in our selves. Nay further, we are what we all abhor, Antropophagi and Cannibals, devourers not onely of men, but of our selves; and that not in an allegory, but a positive truth; for all this mass of flesh which we behold, came in at our mouths: this frame we look upon, has been upon our trenches; In brief, we have devoured our selves.”
Sir Thomas Browne, Religio Medici (1643), I, 37.
I think I can shed some insight onto this subject. Firstly, try living in the bush doing hard graft all day and then eat only vegies for diner, or living in an extremely cold environment and eating only veggies – it doesnt work. Meat packs a punch that veggies dont supply. If your doing physical work in a harsh environment like most of the third world, meat is essential. Being vegan is a luxury we can only afford in the developed world, as we have warm houses, warm clothes, and we dont have physically demanding lifestyles. Veganism is fine in the developed world as a life style choice, but dont try and force it onto the lives of others who live in environments where it would endanger their lives. If you were an eskimo, how would you even grow veges? Heated greenhouses??? (think of the co2 emissions!) – They eat meat out of neccesity!
I grow my own veggies, and I can tell you they need a whole lot more care and time than the chickens do!
Rabbits are easy to grow as well as they dont need much land. When I used to live in the alps, they were essential durting the coldest months of winter (kept in cages in a shed during winter), as was salami, pickled veggies from summer / autumn, berry preverves and of course Kirsch! They were easier to grow than veggies in my view. Some days the only thing that would keep me going in the cold of winter was the thought of the rabbit pipe waiting at home! A plate of cous cous didnt cut it
Essentially what I am saying is that not all meat needs huge resources, just a patch of grass or some bugs in the ground to feed off. Sometimes meat can be easier to grow than veggies and use no more land, and some times you have no choice – meat is essential for survival in some cases. If you can live without it, feel gratefull that you can afford the luxury, as many can not.
jorgekafkazar says – October 20, 2010 at 10:17 am: “Source?”
Hard to prove a negative – it’s one of those well-known myths that still get endlessly repeated.
Robert Payne: The Life and Death of Adolph Hitler (1973):
“Hitler’s asceticism played an important part in the image he projected over Germany. According to the widely believed legend he neither smoked nor drank, nor did he eat meat or have anything to do with women. Only the first was true. He drank beer and diluted wine frequently, had a special fondness for Bavarian sausages and kept a mistress….His asceticism was a fiction invented by Goebbels to emphasize his total dedication, his self control, the distance that separated him from other men….In fact, he was remarkably self indulgent and possessed none of the instincts of the ascetic. His cook, an enormously fat man named Willy Kannenberg, produced exquisite meals and acted as court jester. Although Hitler had no fondness for meat except in the form of sausages and never ate fish, he enjoyed caviar….” (p. 346)
Hey, if I only eat herbivores doesn’t that make me a vegetarian?
Yup . . . .
John
Figaro says:
October 20, 2010 at 10:28 am
Neither was his colon and heart designed to operate for more than the 30 years it takes to reach sexual maturity and raise a few children to that point. After that the job your body was designed to do is done.
You might also want to read Andy Revkin’s column today. ” New Weapon Against Invading Fish: The Pan”, http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/20/new-weapon-against-invading-fish-the-pan/
This is about people who are dealing with the invasions of Lionfish and Asian Carp by coming up with recipes to eat them.
B12 only from meat is a fallacy
B12, unless you have some underlying disorder that prevents normal uptake, is required in such small quantity that sufficient dietary amount is supplied by healthy gut biota. NO plants or animals produce B12. Bacteria are the ONLY synthesizers of B12. Of course in the antibiotic age, particularly in developed countries where they are frequently prescribed for no more than prophylactic reasons, and people are afraid to get dirt on their hands to say nothing of eating food that has any soil clinging to it, gut biota are not usually what could be termed healthy.
Figaro:
What I wrote was observational, and hardly contentious.
I said that dogs were omnivorous and cats natural carnivores (at least mostly), some will eat other things spontaneously, I do not know if this is common.
FWIW there are definitely cat foods that contain little animal produce. Search for vegetarian and vegan(!) cat foods, they do exist!
A reputable brand may be something like “chicken and rice” and have chicken and rice as the primary ingredients so I guess starch may be involved. Another reputable brand lists the carbohydrates used in its cat foods as maize, sorghum, rice and wheat so carbohydrates are definitely involved.
Best Wishes
Alex
“How does the stomach feel after eating a steak?”
Ready for a nap along with the rest of me. Try eating a 72 ounce steak in a single meal and see if you care to repeat what it feels like to be a lion gorging on a fresh kill. I did, one time, but I don’t want to spoil the surprise by telling you why I only did it once. I’m much more energetic on an empty stomach which seems evolutionarily reasonable. Hunger drives the hunt for food and satiation ends it.
Dave Springer says:
October 20, 2010 at 12:07 pm
Dave, in my view, humans are all blood thirsty savages with a thin veneer of culture and belief, as you can verify any Saturday night in any inner city Emergency Room around the planet. Why should I take any offense at that?
You seem to misunderstand the concept of “humor”. I find it funny that both fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist vegivores share many of the same viewpoints. Including, obviously, a misperception of how humor works, and a willingness to indict people who think that their extreme views are funny …
Bro’, here’s the truth. Your views are funny. My views are funny. Fundies’ views are funny, particularly when they overlap with other fundies’ views. Loosen up a little and laugh at yourself, it’s good for the soul.
Dave Springer says:
October 20, 2010 at 12:53 pm
Well, that’s not what the Vegetarian Society says. Remember, these are the claims of vegetarians:
Just sayin’ …
w.
Re: C.W. Schoneveld
One could wait many a year for a quotation from Religio Medici, then two come along together.
“A plant or vegetable consumed to ashes, to a contemplative and schoole Philosopher seemes utterly destroyed, and the forme to have taken his leave for ever: But to a sensible Artist the formes are not perished, but withdrawne into their incombustible part, where they lie secure from the action of that devouring element. This is made good by experience, which can from the ashes of a plant revive the plant, and from its cinders recall it into its stalk and leaves againe.”
Have you read it all? I have barely read more than half, but hopefully I will correct this before I die.
Alex
It is certainly one thing if vegans are eating what they do, and what they don’t, out of reasons of conscience. I have had many experiences with vegans, and I find that at the end of many of the disagreements (to be charitable to their manner of discussion) you could say, ‘These are the sayings of Lee’.
There’s no real logic in veganism … its simply the modern form of self flagellation.
Alexander Harvey says:
October 20, 2010 at 11:52 am
As for toxicity, both may well be toxic to some extent, (and some varieties much more than others), but so is rhubarb.
Only the leaves, which contain oxalic acid.
The real problem with meat it’s that it do not make enough money !
If you can sale soy industrially processed at 6$/kg wou nee just a fully automatised factory and you make a maximum of profit!
Of couse the share older of the factory will eat meat in the french restaurants !
As far as humans being the only animals to cook their food (meat), many scavengers and even a few predators eat corpses that have been “cooking” out in the hot sun, more like beef jerky than tender roast brisket mind you, but still. The net result is your average wild pig/dog/vulture out on the serengeti will wind up eating a lot of cooked meat.
I see a strong link between Christian fundamentalism and vegetarianism which feeds through into the whole green scene. Pre-religion, man was simply another animal eating whatever he could find to survive. In Christiano-Judeo-Islamo religions, man elevated himself to a self-important, separate creation from animals and becomes God’s representative on earth. Darwin came along and shot that down in fire and man lost his pre-eminent place. Being just another boring animal is intolerable to a sentient self-important animal so they have to invent themselves an important role. Belief in God has drifted but now we take on the sacred duty of carers of the planet, savers of species from extinction, preventers of climate change, (and perhaps we should stop continental drift while we are at it.) As carers of the animals, it is unthinkable that we should eat them. As not-animals we should be able to rise above that. The source of all this is the Garden of Eden myth. The myth of the perfect garden pre-human intervention, the guilt of the Expulsion and destruction of the garden, and the attempt to re-create the perfection of the garden. It’s the quest for personal redemption and to create a purpose to life in a post-God world.
One of my favourite poems is about meat:
The War-Song of Dinas Vawr
Thomas Love Peacock (1785–1866)
The mountain sheep are sweeter,
But the valley sheep are fatter;
We therefore deem’d it meeter
To carry off the latter.
We made an expedition; 5
We met an host and quell’d it;
We forced a strong position
And kill’d the men who held it.
On Dyfed’s richest valley,
Where herds of kine were browsing, 10
We made a mighty sally,
To furnish our carousing.
Fierce warriors rush’d to meet us;
We met them, and o’erthrew them:
They struggled hard to beat us, 15
But we conquer’d them, and slew them.
As we drove our prize at leisure,
The king march’d forth to catch us:
His rage surpass’d all measure,
But his people could not match us. 20
He fled to his hall-pillars;
And, ere our force we led off,
Some sack’d his house and cellars,
While others cut his head off.
We there, in strife bewildering, 25
Spilt blood enough to swim in:
We orphan’d many children
And widow’d many women.
The eagles and the ravens
We glutted with our foemen: 30
The heroes and the cravens,
The spearmen and the bowmen.
We brought away from battle,
And much their land bemoan’d them,
Two thousand head of cattle 35
And the head of him who own’d them:
Ednyfed, King of Dyfed,
His head was borne before us;
His wine and beasts supplied our feasts,
And his overthrow, our chorus. 40
The vegans are falsely telling our children that it is safe and healthy to eat a vegan diet. They are also using “holier than thou” peer-pressure to achieve conformity particularly aimed at teen-aged girls. Meanwhile, after a prolonged period on a vegan diet our daughters become anemic, have poor muscle tone, fatigue, rashes, allergies, anorexia and other dietary deficiencies so much so that it may become impossible for them to have a healthy pregnancy, a time when the nutritional demands on the body sky rocket. Infants and toddlers that are growing rapidly also require excellent nutrition for maximum brain growth. Worse vegans say that it is OK to give soy formula to infant boys. The high amount of estrogen in soy distorts their male anatomy and they won’t likely have children either. What does the increase in estrogen do to girls? We don’t know. The western world already has a low birth rate. It seems that the vegan agenda is genocide.
regeya says, October 20, 2010 at 9:20 am:
That comment is belied by the life expectancy numbers of 1st-world countries.
I had an incident while traveling in a remote part of the Bolivian Altiplano with an Indian driver. We saw a flock of flamingos, and he shot one. I asked him if you can eat it. He answered: “Pues, todo lo que vuela va a la olla” – Anything that flies goes into the pot. The people we met that evening were quite happy with this addition to their meager dinner.