Vegans are not from Vegas

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

In response to my recent post about whether we could feed more people if everyone were vegetarians (I say no), a poster named Marissa wrote a heartfelt paean  to Veganism.

Figure 1. Perhaps the world’s best-known adherent of a strict Vegan diet.

Vegans are a kind of fundamentalist sect of born-again vegetarians who eat exclusively vegetables, no eggs, no fish, no milk, no cheese, no insects. Merissa’s post starts off as follows:

Ok, I don’t think I have read one comment from a true vegan on this thread. Well I am Vegan and let me share with you the benefits that I have experienced …

Merissa follows with a list of the things s/he has gotten from following a Vegan diet. This stirred me to write again about why people eat meat.

Merissa, I think that it is great that you have found a way of eating that works for you. The problem is not that some people find that vegetarianism or Veganism works for them. That’s a good thing. I say more power to you. You should eat exactly what feels best for your life and your body. I ate vegetarian for three years myself.

Now perhaps it’s something in the vegetables that causes the problem, I don’t know. But all too often, recent initiates into the mysteries of some branch of Vegetableism then feel compelled to tell me how much better the world would be if every single person ate, not what works for them, but what works for the Vegetableist in question. And this is all too often accompanied by the claim that we could feed more people if humans only ate vegetables.

For the host of reasons I listed in the previous post, people around the planet have found it advantageous to domesticate and keep (and eat) animals. Perhaps some random Vegan knows more about how to scratch out a living in a hostile world than do all of the billions of poor farmers and householders around the planet, maybe they’re all wrong to keep chickens and pigs and such, maybe we might be able to feed more people if we were all vegetarians … but I doubt it very much. The farmers and the poor around the planet aren’t that stupid.

It has occasionally been my good fortune to work and spend time with very poor people, the dollar a day people, the people at the very opposite end of the economic spectrum from me, or you, or anyone rich enough to own a computer or a pair of nice shoes. There’s a lot to learn at that end of the economy, including about people’s diets. To understand the position of meat in the global diet, you need to remember that most people don’t eat the same as you and me and the folks who own computers and nice shoes. Most people on the planet are already vegetarians most of the time … only not by choice. For most people, meat is a delicacy. It is not on the menu very often.

Once when I was working in Liberia, in West Africa, they were burning a local sugar cane field. The whole village came out with clubs. They surrounded the fire in a long line. When the fire chased the cane rats out of the burning cane, they clubbed the rats and took them home and ate them. I found out that cane rat fried up in slightly over-the-hill orange colored oil palm oil (no refrigeration) tastes pretty good, although for a couple days afterwards I belched more rancid palm oil fumes than an out-of-tune biodiesel Volkwagen …

And of course cane rat is considered a good thing, meat for the family.

Here’s the reason why cane rat is a delicacy, why kids lined up to get some of the meat. The villagers that eat that meat are stronger and healthier and more resistant to disease and quicker to heal and faster growing than the villagers who don’t eat that meat. Simple as that. The chance to eat meat doesn’t come up often. When that chance comes up, those people that eat the meat improve their chances of living compared to those who don’t eat meat.

Our bodies know that and have known it since forever. You could see it in the kids’ eyes, they could smell it, they wanted it, their bodies responded without conscious thought. Meat makes you stronger, it provides a host of vitamins and minerals, it is powerful food. Which is why people eat meat, in Africa and around the planet. It increases their odds of survival in a harsh and unforgiving environment. So they ate cane rats.

Here’s another story from another time and place, with the same subject. One late afternoon, through a series of misunderstandings and coincidences, I found myself sitting in the welcome shade of some trees in a railroad yard in Mexico, waiting to hop a freight train. Two young boys came by, brothers the older one said, perhaps four and seven years old. Built on the usual blueprint of the poor, undersized and skinny. I struck up a conversation in Spanish with the seven year old. The younger boy never said a word. He just trailed a few feet behind his older brother, and watched everything with black shiny eyes.

The older boy had a slingshot made of a tree branch “Y” fork, with a dozen or more ordinary rubber bands of all sizes and colors attached to each fork of the “Y” and to the leather pouch.

I asked what they were doing. The boy said they came to the railroad lines because there were perfectly round stones for his slingshot in the railroad bed. He showed me how hard it was to pull his slingshot. Oh, I suppose you are the grán cazador, the mighty hunter, I jested.

Si, Señor, yo soy, he explained very soberly in Spanish, yes, Sir, I am.

My skepticism must have shown in my eyes. Mira, he said, watch.

He searched around, picked up and discarded a few stones, finally settling on exactly the right one. He put it in the pouch of the slingshot, and started walking around and gazing intently up into the tree branches above us. He stopped, pulled back and let fly.

There was a “poof” sound up in the tree, and a bird the size of a small robin, that I didn’t even know was in the tree, tumbled down at my feet. He and his tiny brother both jumped on it, and he twisted its neck in an economical, practised fashion.

With my mouth hanging open, I hastened to assure him that I was wrong to doubt his word. I said he was indeed a skilled hunter. I asked what he would do with the bird. Oh, para comer, señor, it’s for food, sir, he said. I said are you going to take it home to your mamá to cook it? Oh, no, Señor, somos siete, he said … oh no, Sir … there’s seven of us kids … I nodded my understanding.

He and his short confederate scurried off. They returned with some grass and twigs. He pulled out a tattered matchbook and lit a fire. In no time he had plucked that bird, gutted it, skewered it, and had it cooking over the fire. I watched in astonishment.

I walked to the corner where an old lady was frying tacos on a dished-top tin can stove. I bought a few potato tacos the size of silver dollars. She didn’t sell meat tacos, poor people don’t buy meat tacos. She made tacos with potatoes and tacos with beans. I brought them back, and gave most of them to the midget hunter and his mini-amigo. And God damn it, he wanted me to take half the bird, but I could see their eyes caressing it.

So I told them I could only eat a small bite on account of my liver. That being the common explanation there for any physical infirmity, the older boy nodded sagely. He agreed that a man has to take care of his liver, you can’t be too careful. He said his liver was fine, thanks, and they happily polished off that bird. I bought another round of potato tacos to celebrate, which had similarly short lifetimes.

And you know, as the two of them sat there content under the tree, sucking on the bird bones and watching the sun set, somehow I just didn’t have the heart to tell that small man and his smaller brother-in-arms just how much better off he and his little bitty buddy and the rest of the world would be if only they and everyone else became vegans …

My best to all,

w.

[UPDATE] Twelve years after I wrote this, science is finally catching up with what every kid on a cattle ranch knows … see “Going Vegan Isn’t the Most Sustainable Option for Humanity“.

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Alexander Vissers
October 20, 2010 9:22 am

Reminds me of Graham Green’s “The Commedians”, his novel set on Haïti featuring the US American vegetarian presidential candidate the ultimate cynicism on vegetarians.
Yes, we could feed a lot more people if we ate considerably less meat. But currently starvation und hunger are still more defined by political circumstances and less by economical and agricultural limitations, so there is not a strong incentive nor logical rationale to reduce the production of meat.
And the swampy grasslands in the Netherlands will not grow anthing but grass for cattle, spoiling us with milk cheese and steak, the same goes for the rocky mountain prairies in the Alps. What would you grow in Lapland? What in Alaska? Mongolia?
Animal ethics are never tenable when conflicting with human wellbeing and prosperity.

Douglas DC
October 20, 2010 9:31 am

Speaking of A.Hitler-a number of years ago there was a controversy in Flagstaff Az .
about a plaque with the engraving of FDR and his famous cigarette holder. There was an effort to have that sucker ground off , in the local paper, a fellow wrote in:
“I have the perfect replacement for FDR. ” “A contemporary, he was concerned about the environment, small animals and loved dogs and children.” ” He was particularly
concerned about population control…”
Take it away Mel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGp0hCxSg98

David Bailey
October 20, 2010 9:35 am

I do hope you will not let your excellent blog degenerate into an a rant against all alternative viewpoints!
Meat production in the West has become so intensive that it clearly causes enormous suffering to the creatures involved. Visit an intensive chicken rearing facility, and look at the conditions in which these animals live, and compare it with the more traditional hens in a farmyard.
A rat clubbed as it tries to escape from a sugar cane field will have lead a far better life than many a creature locked up in a high tech food manufacturing plant.
The real problem is that most people eat far too much meat, and even end up wasting a fair proportion – so we have to produce a vast excess.
I am not vegan or even (quite) vegetarian, but I eat very little meat. I think the problems of feeding an ever-growing human population are very real and obvious – the exact opposite of global warming – and I am frustrated that the environmental organisations have been seduced into obsessing about a problem that barely exists, while real problems get ignored!

Alan the Brit
October 20, 2010 9:37 am

The issue I personally have with many (but not all) vegetarians is that they have this irresistable urge to lecture others on the ethics about eating meat, the “holyer than thou syndrome” I call it. I feel I am always being judged by them, having said that they may well fell likewise. I am sure I have never in the past, now, or in the future, lectured anyone on what they should eat, whether they’re omniverous, vegetarian, or vegan (or as one great British comedy show tagged, when asked if a character of dubious intellectual capacity was asked if they knew what a vegan was they replied, “of course I do, I never missed an episode of Star Trek!”.) To paraphrase some American Colonial dude, “I may not agree with what this man eats, but I defend to the death his right to eat it!”

October 20, 2010 9:38 am

I’m a “carni-vegetarian”.
I only eat animals, that eat vegetables. 😉

Ted Wagner
October 20, 2010 9:44 am

Be nice to the vegetablearians please, we need more of them!
More meat for me 🙂

kuhnkat
October 20, 2010 9:44 am

I too am impressed by anecdotal evidence.
Just a gentle reminder that anecdotal evidence may have numerous problems so we should not depend too greatly upon it without more solid empirical investigation into the underpinnings.

Tannim111
October 20, 2010 9:45 am
Janice
October 20, 2010 9:45 am

“A great deal of meat is reared in factory type conditions and suffer
considerable stress.”
“Whereas in the wild, zebra get followed around by lions…”
“Plenty of stress there, the lion has to run fast to get a meal. The zebra..he just has to run faster..for longer!”
My little granddaughter was asked what she would do, if she and a friend went into the woods and saw a bear. She said she and her friend would run away. I said that a bear could probably run faster than her. She thought for a moment, then said that she just needed to run faster than her friend. So, for the above story, a zebra doesn’t have to run faster than the lion, just faster than another zebra.
We are not herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores. We are factorvores. We manufacture our food. Even a vegan eating a raw carrot has, probably, washed it off. The roots of our factorvorism go so far back as to be lost in time. Nobody knows how or why we started taking inedible foods and manufacturing them into edible foods. Acorns and olives are toxic to humans in their natural state, and must go through some very unnatural processes to become food.
Small birds killed by small boys are cleaned, and then roasted over a fire, because they understand that food must be processed. Most ethnic cultures have some food item which is considered a delicacy only to them: Haggis and Lutefisk are the first to come to mind. Who in their right mind would preserve a codfish in lye, which then requires about three days of boiling to remove the lye? I don’t want to even discuss Haggis. Some of the Indian tribes of North America would separate lean meats and fats, drying the meats and rendering the fats, and then combine them back together into something called pemmican, which has a shelf life of decades. Kimchi is a fermented cabbage mixture. Cooking food releases certain nutrients, just a fermentation does.
And alcohol is not just putting grains or fruits into a vat, and allowing it to ferment. The sugars in grains and fruits cannot be used by yeast directly, and the yeast would starve before they could produce alcohol. An enzyme must be introduced, which helps to convert the fructose to glucose, which can then be consumed by the yeast. It appears that barley, when allowed to sprout, produces that enzyme (malted barley). Sake is produced from rice that has had a mold grown on it, which does the same thing as an enzyme. We have no record of why or when people came up with this incredible breakthrough in organic chemistry, which now allows us to calmly purchase a six-pack to drink while watching the Sunday game.
I have some severe problems with many “normal” foods, which limits my diet to an extreme degree. It has been my own research into the chemistry of foods, and their constituent parts, which has led me to realize how much we owe to these unknowns of milleniums past, who obviously conducted deliberate scientific effort into creating the modern foods that we take for granted. Let us rejoice in our manufactured foods, and our anciently genetically modified livestock, grains, vegetables, and fruits. Let us each eat what goes well with our bodies.

crosspatch
October 20, 2010 9:50 am

““Fundamentalist” is a word with a clear definition that does not describe vegans. ”
ANYONE can be a fundamentalist on practically any subject. The basic definition is “a belief in a strict adherence to a set of basic principles”.
When one’s faith in whatever belief they hold becomes stronger than any argument of logic, and when any attempt to question that believe is greeted with a response what tends to isolate, suppress, banish or otherwise make the questioner “shut up” then I would say they are fundamentalists.
For example, Real Climate is a fundamentalist site, in my opinion. They will block, ridicule, bully, whatever it takes to shut an opposition view up.
Believe me, I have seen it with the more radical vegans, too. With my apologies to “Batfink”, when it comes to fundies all sorts, it becomes “Your logic cannot harm me, my faith is like a shield of steel.”.

fafhard
October 20, 2010 10:00 am

While I drink a lot of milk (and prefer whole milk – oreos are just not the same with reduced fat milk), there does exist abuse of the cow (and other animals) that might lead some to stop drinking milk and eating meat. The following link came up with a quick search on the matter.
http://theanimalvoice.blogspot.com/2007/12/milk-veal-dairy-cows.html
I’d prefer to get milk from my own cow and fresh meat from my own livestock, but that’s too much work, my garden isn’t large enough and the neighbours would complain. So I do the next best thing and order a non-veggie Curry and have milk and cookies afterwards (I’m a culturally confused American in London :- )

Honest ABE
October 20, 2010 10:00 am

Excellent story Willis.
Also, another reason we cook meat is to make it much easier to rip, chew and swallow.

John Whitman
October 20, 2010 10:01 am

Willis,
Thanks for the article. But I must say the subject matter is low hanging fruit (pun slightly intended). There is bigger game a foot (pun slightly intended) to be hunted, raise your sights man! Seriously.
Actually, as a carnivorous leaning omnivore, I find that I do have, surprisingly, a lot of vegetarian friends. They span the whole range of vegetarian variants. They are not motivated about saving the planet. Their motivation is more a statement about their psychological wellbeing or about elevating their level of consciousness related to some spirituality they maintain. They are nice people even if I differ with them fundamentally on the spirituality thing. They are not against what I eat and I am not against what they eat. They respect my personal choices and I respect theirs. We are friends.
I actually haven’t met anyone in person who said they were an environmentally motivated vegetarian . . . yet. I am aware of them and their social causes. I am aware they advocate limiting my personal freedom, therefore they are my intellectual adversaries . . . and consequently likely my political adversaries as well. Constant vigilance!
John

Ray
October 20, 2010 10:05 am

Talking of B12 and other meat nutrients, I read a story about a Vegan Indian (because some do eat meat and beef there) that was in good health while living in India. He then moved to England but kept his vegan diet. After some time he started to develop deficiencies and had to be take supplements. What was found is that back in India those vitamins and minerals that are usually provided from animal foods were coming from all those little insects that he was eating along with his vegetables. In England those insects were not present in his foods because they were very clean and treated (100% vegetarian).

DaveF
October 20, 2010 10:11 am

I’m confused. I thought Vegans were those people with pointy ears, like Mr. Spock.

R. Craigen
October 20, 2010 10:15 am

The comment above about our canine teeth led me to chuckle about what I once heard from a vegan concerning drinking milk: When you drink milk, your stomach says: “what are you doing putting that down here? I’m not a baby cow, I’m a human stomach, I’m not designed to digest cow’s milk!!” Yeah, right, and when you put rice and oats into your mouth your canines complain that they aren’t cow’s teeth so how can you expect them to eat ruminant-food — they are canines, designed for ripping and tearing meat!
Arguments “from nature” are silly, because we aren’t slaves to our animal nature (that’s practically a definition of what it means to be “human”). But if ecology nuts and vegetarians are going to make such arguments they should also have to answer them.

jorgekafkazar
October 20, 2010 10:17 am

Dave says: “Hitler wasn’t vegan or vegetarian, though, in reality. Go figure ;)”
Source?

chip
October 20, 2010 10:18 am

My favorite quote remains that “if God didn’t want us to eat animals he wouldn’t have made them taste so good.”

jorgekafkazar
October 20, 2010 10:23 am

Vegan couple sentenced to life over baby’s death
ATLANTA — “A vegan couple were sentenced Wednesday to life in prison for the death of their malnourished 6-week-old baby boy, who was fed a diet largely consisting of soy milk and apple juice.
“Superior Court Judge L.A. McConnell imposed the mandatory sentences on Jade Sanders, 27, and Lamont Thomas, 31. Their son, Crown Shakur, weighed just 3 1/2 pounds when he died of starvation on April 25, 2004.
“The couple were found guilty May 2 of malice murder, felony murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty to children. A jury deliberated about seven hours before returning the guilty verdicts.
“Defense lawyers said the first-time parents did the best they could while adhering to the lifestyle of vegans, who typically use no animal products. They said Sanders and Thomas did not realize the baby, who was born at home, was in danger until minutes before he died.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18574603/?GT1=9951
There is a wealth of pro-Vegan literature showing that the Vegan diet is nutritious and healthy. Unfortunately, as in climate science, the pro-Vegan literature is largely pseudoscience.

Jake
October 20, 2010 10:24 am

Thank you Willis, this was one of the best articles (and discussions) that I’ve read here (quite a departure from some of the more,….combative discussions).
Like PRD, I’ve probably eaten about any meat animal that could be eaten. Growing up in rural Midwest, I learned to hunt with my father, grandfather, uncles, and cousins when I was very young. I remember some Thanksgiving dinners (about 50 of us) featuring deer, raccoon, rabbit, squirrel, and duck in addition to the standard “storebought” items. Additionally there’d be corn, squash, green beans, etc form our own gardens. The thing that always struck me about these items was that they always seemed to have more “taste” than anything that was storebought (that went for meat AND vegetables). I don’t do a lot of hunting these days and my “garden” this year consisted of just 2 tomato plants, but I do recall fondly those days from my childhood, and the great tastes associated with them.

Figaro
October 20, 2010 10:28 am

In pure nutrition terms, the key question is balance between the immediate principles that make any person or animal a living organism. To meet your requirements for maintenance or growth, you need to consume the right amount of protein, energy, fibre, minerals and vitamins. The ways you go to get them is a personal choice, but keep in mind that man, although being omnivorous by evolution, has a clear bias to meat. Man’s intestine is not designed to digest high-fibre foodstuffs, nor its enzymatic equipment is able to decompose efficiently the complex carbohydrates found in beans, soya or other vegetable sources, while cows or beef cattle (ruminating animals) do.
Another problem is the nutrient density of foodstuffs eaten and this has to do with the different stages a person goes through during his life. An active young would require more that 3,000 calories a day to keep going, with the proper amount of digestible protein to replace the protein which is lost daily. And limiting nutrient density or quality though a diet does not looks like a good advice. It is rather complicated getting a high density diet with the proper nutrient balance for all stages of life from purely vegetable sources without any input from animal derivatives like milk or cheese, and marginal nutrient deficiency may take a long time to show but it happens quite frequently.
Summarising, it is not important the kind of dietary regime a person follows, he/she has to make sure it is balanced for his/her activity level and age. However, it is not difficult to justify from nutrition and metabolism that animal protein has a superior biological value for man than vegetable protein does, especially if it is sourced from raw feedstuffs.

Enneagram
October 20, 2010 10:39 am

Don’t think aloud!…..What if some ideologists out there reads these lines and is suddenly illuminated with the idea of ENFORCED vegetarianism!
No crée? …..They just began by obliging kids with their parents to forcefully eat vegs at California……Didn’t you know that eating meat is carcinogenic?….only Kool Aid cures Cancer!

Tenuc
October 20, 2010 10:46 am

The ethics of diet are an issue for many people, whether from personal choice or religious stricture. As a member of the human race, which has evolved over many years to eat a wide and varied omnivorous diet, I have no ethical issues about killing and eating animals.
Everyone has the right to eat whatever they want and I think it is completely wrong to try and impose ones own illusion of reality on another. Freedom to choose and tolerance of other peoples views are the important issues.

r
October 20, 2010 10:49 am

Are you repulsed by the thought of fermented foods? Think about chocolate for a minute. It comes in such nice neat little geometric shapes. It seems so artificial and modern and far removed from any animal or vegetable…
Chocolate is really the fermented bacterial mush that grows on cocoa beans. Think of that next time you dip your pretzel into the melted brown goo! Yum!

Shub Niggurath
October 20, 2010 10:54 am

I’ll eat anything that moves – it has to taste good though, and you can avoid telling me what I am eating if you think I might freak out.
All this quite unlike some of the morons who belong to the religion I was born into.

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