Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
In response to my recent post about whether we could feed more people if everyone were vegetarians (I say no), a poster named Marissa wrote a heartfelt paean to Veganism.
Figure 1. Perhaps the world’s best-known adherent of a strict Vegan diet.
Vegans are a kind of fundamentalist sect of born-again vegetarians who eat exclusively vegetables, no eggs, no fish, no milk, no cheese, no insects. Merissa’s post starts off as follows:
Ok, I don’t think I have read one comment from a true vegan on this thread. Well I am Vegan and let me share with you the benefits that I have experienced …
Merissa follows with a list of the things s/he has gotten from following a Vegan diet. This stirred me to write again about why people eat meat.
Merissa, I think that it is great that you have found a way of eating that works for you. The problem is not that some people find that vegetarianism or Veganism works for them. That’s a good thing. I say more power to you. You should eat exactly what feels best for your life and your body. I ate vegetarian for three years myself.
Now perhaps it’s something in the vegetables that causes the problem, I don’t know. But all too often, recent initiates into the mysteries of some branch of Vegetableism then feel compelled to tell me how much better the world would be if every single person ate, not what works for them, but what works for the Vegetableist in question. And this is all too often accompanied by the claim that we could feed more people if humans only ate vegetables.
For the host of reasons I listed in the previous post, people around the planet have found it advantageous to domesticate and keep (and eat) animals. Perhaps some random Vegan knows more about how to scratch out a living in a hostile world than do all of the billions of poor farmers and householders around the planet, maybe they’re all wrong to keep chickens and pigs and such, maybe we might be able to feed more people if we were all vegetarians … but I doubt it very much. The farmers and the poor around the planet aren’t that stupid.
It has occasionally been my good fortune to work and spend time with very poor people, the dollar a day people, the people at the very opposite end of the economic spectrum from me, or you, or anyone rich enough to own a computer or a pair of nice shoes. There’s a lot to learn at that end of the economy, including about people’s diets. To understand the position of meat in the global diet, you need to remember that most people don’t eat the same as you and me and the folks who own computers and nice shoes. Most people on the planet are already vegetarians most of the time … only not by choice. For most people, meat is a delicacy. It is not on the menu very often.
Once when I was working in Liberia, in West Africa, they were burning a local sugar cane field. The whole village came out with clubs. They surrounded the fire in a long line. When the fire chased the cane rats out of the burning cane, they clubbed the rats and took them home and ate them. I found out that cane rat fried up in slightly over-the-hill orange colored oil palm oil (no refrigeration) tastes pretty good, although for a couple days afterwards I belched more rancid palm oil fumes than an out-of-tune biodiesel Volkwagen …
And of course cane rat is considered a good thing, meat for the family.
Here’s the reason why cane rat is a delicacy, why kids lined up to get some of the meat. The villagers that eat that meat are stronger and healthier and more resistant to disease and quicker to heal and faster growing than the villagers who don’t eat that meat. Simple as that. The chance to eat meat doesn’t come up often. When that chance comes up, those people that eat the meat improve their chances of living compared to those who don’t eat meat.
Our bodies know that and have known it since forever. You could see it in the kids’ eyes, they could smell it, they wanted it, their bodies responded without conscious thought. Meat makes you stronger, it provides a host of vitamins and minerals, it is powerful food. Which is why people eat meat, in Africa and around the planet. It increases their odds of survival in a harsh and unforgiving environment. So they ate cane rats.
Here’s another story from another time and place, with the same subject. One late afternoon, through a series of misunderstandings and coincidences, I found myself sitting in the welcome shade of some trees in a railroad yard in Mexico, waiting to hop a freight train. Two young boys came by, brothers the older one said, perhaps four and seven years old. Built on the usual blueprint of the poor, undersized and skinny. I struck up a conversation in Spanish with the seven year old. The younger boy never said a word. He just trailed a few feet behind his older brother, and watched everything with black shiny eyes.
The older boy had a slingshot made of a tree branch “Y” fork, with a dozen or more ordinary rubber bands of all sizes and colors attached to each fork of the “Y” and to the leather pouch.
I asked what they were doing. The boy said they came to the railroad lines because there were perfectly round stones for his slingshot in the railroad bed. He showed me how hard it was to pull his slingshot. Oh, I suppose you are the grán cazador, the mighty hunter, I jested.
Si, Señor, yo soy, he explained very soberly in Spanish, yes, Sir, I am.
My skepticism must have shown in my eyes. Mira, he said, watch.
He searched around, picked up and discarded a few stones, finally settling on exactly the right one. He put it in the pouch of the slingshot, and started walking around and gazing intently up into the tree branches above us. He stopped, pulled back and let fly.
There was a “poof” sound up in the tree, and a bird the size of a small robin, that I didn’t even know was in the tree, tumbled down at my feet. He and his tiny brother both jumped on it, and he twisted its neck in an economical, practised fashion.
With my mouth hanging open, I hastened to assure him that I was wrong to doubt his word. I said he was indeed a skilled hunter. I asked what he would do with the bird. Oh, para comer, señor, it’s for food, sir, he said. I said are you going to take it home to your mamá to cook it? Oh, no, Señor, somos siete, he said … oh no, Sir … there’s seven of us kids … I nodded my understanding.
He and his short confederate scurried off. They returned with some grass and twigs. He pulled out a tattered matchbook and lit a fire. In no time he had plucked that bird, gutted it, skewered it, and had it cooking over the fire. I watched in astonishment.
I walked to the corner where an old lady was frying tacos on a dished-top tin can stove. I bought a few potato tacos the size of silver dollars. She didn’t sell meat tacos, poor people don’t buy meat tacos. She made tacos with potatoes and tacos with beans. I brought them back, and gave most of them to the midget hunter and his mini-amigo. And God damn it, he wanted me to take half the bird, but I could see their eyes caressing it.
So I told them I could only eat a small bite on account of my liver. That being the common explanation there for any physical infirmity, the older boy nodded sagely. He agreed that a man has to take care of his liver, you can’t be too careful. He said his liver was fine, thanks, and they happily polished off that bird. I bought another round of potato tacos to celebrate, which had similarly short lifetimes.
And you know, as the two of them sat there content under the tree, sucking on the bird bones and watching the sun set, somehow I just didn’t have the heart to tell that small man and his smaller brother-in-arms just how much better off he and his little bitty buddy and the rest of the world would be if only they and everyone else became vegans …
My best to all,
w.
[UPDATE] Twelve years after I wrote this, science is finally catching up with what every kid on a cattle ranch knows … see “Going Vegan Isn’t the Most Sustainable Option for Humanity“.
Thanks for the article Willis, you really have talent for packing your razor sharp anaysis, personal experience in an entertaining read. Love it.
Most of us are lucky to be able to pick and choose our diets, so can follow dietary fads or fashions if we want. Others aren’t so fortunate and have to subsist on whatever they can find. I’m not fussed whether someone’s chosen to be vegan or vegetarian, providing they’re following a sensible balanced diet. Personally, I like a bit of meat, preferably meat I’ve caught myself. The Western modern hunter gatherer’s now evolved to prowl the aisle for food often processed and packaged for supermarket’s convenience rather than ours, and the only hazard is avoiding the occasional cougar. We’re spoilt, and much of the world doesn’t have the same luxury. Especially if it’s growing food for us to throw away or turn into biofuels. Converting everyone to vegetarian or vegan isn’t practical, sustainable or beneficial. Educating developing countries about more sustainable farming and irrigation is.
I also get the sense that Willis has lead a very interesting and varied life 🙂
If we had no use for cows or chickens they would have been hunted to extinction by predators hundreds of years ago. Human meat consumption, and animal domestication in general in a market economy, has allowed dozens of species a chance to keep existing.
“Meat eaters (like the majority reading this) are hypocrites because they’ll eat a chicken, but can’t bear to eat anything fluffy, cute or domesticated.”
Au contraire, the fluffy, cute, domesticated animals are the most tender. Lamb and veal are rather tasty, and I’ve tried dog in Asia. It’s the vegans here in California that would rather see a horse turned to glue than to have it eaten in a fine restaurant.
Why is it that other people are always wanting to tell us what to do? What to eat, what to think…..
When the waiter comes to my table tonight and asks me what I’d like to have, I’ll tell him: I think I’ll have the Rib-eye, “walked slowly through a warm kitchen” :).
@willis
Your own anecdote has a lesson in it that you entirely missed. A lesson which falsifies your thesis of vegetarian diet not being more efficient. I refer to the the free market price of food: “She didn’t sell meat tacos, poor people don’t buy meat tacos.”
If everything else was equal in cost of production, storage, and distribution then poor people would eat as much meat in their diet as they wanted as there would be no cost difference between it and other foods. QED.
The reason all those ancient farmers kept a few livestock is because while the animal is still alive it represents food that is self-storing until time of need and in the meantime there are eggs and milk to be harvested which is why chickens, goats, and cows are popular. Moreover, while the animal is still alive it can move itself from one place to another for nomadic and semi-nomadic lifestyles so it’s self-transporting as well. You can’t very well pick up and move when need be if you’ve got a tons of grains, tubers, and legumes in storage.
I swear if there’s any question that people are not animals just try taking their meat away from them and they’ll fight for it like dogs. Few mammals are obligate carnivores and humans aren’t among those few. Meat is definitely a good source of nutrition as it contains all essential amino acids in one source but then again, when you say “Our bodies know that and have known it since forever” here’s something else our bodies have known since forever “our bodies have known, since forever, they only have about 35 years to mature and raise a child before they die”. That isn’t enough time for things like colon cancer to become much of a problem from a lack of roughage in the diet, or for coronary arteries to clog up from a diet rich in saturated fats and cholesterol, or for many other kinds of cancers to develop from a lack of anti-oxidants.
In other words, Willis, this isn’t the same world our cave-man ancestors were living in. In the developed world we have far longer lifespans, we don’t relocate often, we have huge agricultural industries which derive great benefit from division of labor and economy of scale, refrigerators, and all sorts of other technological game changers. The need for humans to consume meat in the modern world is, as near as I can determine, almost solely driven by hedonistic desire. I have no real problem with hedonism but I do have a problem with people who try to pretend eating meat is for reasons other than the pleasure given us by our ancient taste buds.
Dave from the “Hot” North East of Scotland says:
October 20, 2010 at 5:43 am
“1 Corinthians 10 verses 23 – 31
……………………………………….. do all to the glory of God.
So do what you do, don’t impose on your views on others and be grateful you’ve got the means to do what you do.”
=======================================================
Wonderfully appropriate text from the word! One doesn’t have to be a believer to see the wisdom of the word. And that they are indeed, words to live by!
When I’m dining with a person that turns down the meat offered, my response, and I believe an appropriate one, is a shrug and the words, “More for me.”
A heartfelt and cogent post, Willis. Thanks a bunch, from climax omnivore that had brushes with poverty as a child! The fundamental lessons many of us were taught as children hold true today. ‘All things in moderation’ is a truism honed by a million years of successful survival and evolution. Our ancestors survived and propagated because they used all of the resources they had available to enhance their health, master their environment, and pass these traits on to their progeny. Thank you, Honored Ancestors!
“There’s room for all God’s creatures… right next to the carrots and potatoes!”
It’s good to see vegetarians and vegans being wholeheartedly accepted with no attempt to give them lots of stick and convert them to omnivorous diets. As a health professional though I must point out that the only proven way of extending life is to eat a diet which verges on starvation and is low meat and dairy products. It’s not just that it seems longer, it does have measurable results in longevity and health. As an smallholder I also know that if I did not keep food animals I would have to buy in artificial fertilisers to ensure my veg crops grow well. If you want to live a self sufficient lifestyle, your food source has to reflect the whole of the environment, not just plants. I’ve also always liked Dr.Bellamy’s point that anyone who has studied botany and seen the wondrous complexity of plant life could could ever be a vegetarian. Lets not be speciesist in our food sources!
Several of your posts have hinted at “ethical” or religious reasons for vegetarianism. This does not account for all vegans, but certainly a sizeable percentage feel that an animal has just as much “rights” as we do, therefore don’t eat it.
I just wanted to add that from a Christian perspective, we seem to have started off vegetarian, but were given specific right to eat meat if we wanted to (Genesis 9). The point is that you won’t get anywhere with some vegans (who can eat whatever they want, it doesn’t matter to me) since these vegetarians believe our SOUL is no different or any more valuable than that of other animals. It is this difference in belief that lies at the root of the argument with PETA and other groups.
What I have always found so strange about those who are “evangelical” or “religious” vegans, is that most all of them are probably staunch Darwinists and therefore shouldn’t have a problem with one soulless hunk of more-evolved meat eating another soulless hunk of less-evolved meat. What is it to them? I survived, the cow didn’t, and I’m more fit for it!
A few years ago a local professional football player went vegan–in the summer off season. When practice started back up, he was unpleasantly surprised at how much he had lost in muscle and condition. He had to start eating meat again just to keep playing. Doctor’s orders.
Willis, great stories.
My diet advice? Whatever WORKS for you. For some people a vegan diet might be best; for others something else might be best. Every “body” is different.
In my case, I have had severe congestive heart failure (with a 15% ejection rate). I followed very good dietary rules and kept my weight down (BMI < 22). But I continued to decline, and did not expect to finish out the year. My cardiologist said that it would be virtually impossible for me to improve and wanted me to get a heart transplant.
Then my wife got me to start taking certain nutrients that have worked for lots of other people (co-Q-10, D-ribose, L-arginine, magnesium, niacin, and lots of others–about 50-60 doses per day). The result? Almost immediate improvement. Now after 3 months my heart ejection rate increased to 40%. Now I only have moderate congestive heart failure, my energy level is good, and I am biking every day. Plus, so many other "unrelated" problems have suddenly disappeared. And now for the first time in my life my blood test (for total cholesterol, HDL, LDL, and triglycerides) came out excellent and ideal, rather than horrid. I expect that by next June I will have a normal ejection rate.
My point: the phenomenal results that I have achieved are not the result of a vegan diet, or an Adkins diet, or Pritikin diet. I'd call it a nutritional supplement diet. Some of the nutrients cannot be obtained from any foods (like D-ribose). If your body stops making enough of it, you either supplement with the synthesized form or you get sick and die. The issue is not, “Which diet fits your philosophy?” but, “Which diet gets the job done.” I challenge any diet or medical procedure to get the miraculous results that I have gotten. Drop the philosophy and paradigm commitment and just do what works. I wish all the heart doctors I have gone to would have done that. If they had, they would have recognized what a tiny minority of doctors have come to see: that in many cases congestive heart failure is caused by a nutritional deficiency, and in many such cases the damage can be reversed by supplements.
Very insightful—I live in Panama where many people live largely from rice and beans and yucca and plantains. The addition of just small amounts of animal protein and fat makes a huge difference in the health, particularly of indigenous people. For the rest of us, I think occasional periods of a vegan diet are not bad–many cultures have periods of abstinence from meat for religious reasons throughout the year–the eastern orthodox ‘fast’ with a vegan diet almost 25% of the year, if one totals all of the Wednesdays, Fridays, Lent and other fast days. The big anti meat lobby is strengthened by our western culture of excess. When meat is enjoyed as the old fashioned Sunday Roast, I think we are healthier and we can feed more people on the planet.
Willis great post thanks.
Donald (S.Australia) says:
October 20, 2010 at 2:44 am
Wasn’t Hitler the world’s best known vegan? ( Or was he some some variant of the quackery?)
Not only Hitler but also Ghandi. Go figure.
From my experience living in a poor, third world tropical country I can attest to this. Most very poor will try and buy a cheap hightly bony fish instead of beef or chicken which they can’t afford every day. They also turn to oysters. Yes oysters, in the country I live in they are in abundance and are called the “poor man’s food.” As a result, many poor people living inland don’t have access to good levels of protein and suffer malnutrition.
Just my 2 cents worth!
My wife and I went high protein, low carb and it saved out lives. She was borderline
diabetic, as was I. I lost 65 lbs she 45 lbs. We are now NOT Diabetic. A1C normal,
colesterol-normal BP normal. Turns out, we both had Native American Grandmothers,both from the deep south, and did not talk about it. We eat like our native ancestors. BTW-if you’ve been told Granma or Granpa is “Black Irish”, or “Black Dutch”-that is a code word..
(Highland Scots diets weren’t a lot different-and that’s another story-so I got a double
dose of High Protein using genes,-I won’t go into the Viking part,either.)
My Point-genetics play a huge role in which way you can get away with a Vegan diet
or not. Wife tried a Vegan diet and it almost killed her. she was seeing this Naturopath
who was Chinese, and from Macao, originally. He could, due to the centuries of living
on beansprouts and tofu,could get away with it. But not my Wife or for that matter,I.
what was the clincher-was the various infections that she got, and couldn’t shake them. He immune system was compromised,she put on weight, and she contracted lyme. which sent her into a spiral. Now thanks to a modified Atkins/South Beach type
diet. We are healthy. Vegan diets are fine if you have a level of civilization, but,I won’t give up my Bison, Grass fed Beef,Elk or Venison for anything.
Good points, Willis.
Ron House says:
October 20, 2010 at 3:46 am
I think you’ll find that this perception of yours is point-of-view bias. My story: When I chose to become a vegetarian, I made the following resolution: (1) that although I believed meat eating to be morally wrong, it was each person’s choice and I would never, not ever, make comment on anyone else’s eating habits, but (2) equally, I would never help anyone else do anything I believed was wrong.
____________
You have removed your own point of view bias by decree? Good job. Based on your rant, it’s not working too well for you. How could it? You have to live and eat among all those immoral meat eaters. That you find them judgmental and boorish is pretty predictable, after all they are making daily immoral choices.
Have not read the other comments, yet, but just wanted to express my thanks, Willis, for your sheer humanity and compassion, which are expressed in every shining word you write.
Hey Willis, nicely written – you have it in your blood. Tell us another one…..
“A great deal of meat is reared in factory type conditions and suffer
considerable stress.”
Remember a few years ago, Wholefoods stopped selling live lobsters because of the “inhumane” practice of dropping them into a boiling pot of water.
But don’t worry, they sell “fresh” lobster tails…which I presume were grown in a laboratory.
gcb says: October 20, 2010 at 5:03 am
“I don’t think anyone’s mentioned it here yet, but I strongly recommend reading the book “Good Calories, Bad Calories” by Gary Taubes.”
I’d second this recommendation. As a long time veggie and re-evaluating my diet for health reasons (mild diabetes). This book makes so much sense and highlights that the long held consensus on a healthy diet is almost undoubtedly wrong. I’m not sure what the US has but the UK has this eat 80% starchy carbs food pyramid kind of view which is insane as the vast majority of your food then has very little nutrition that the body actually needs (protein/fats/minerals etc..).
20 years ago or so my daughter became “vegetarian” as many 16ish year-old girls do. At the end of her first year at unversity she was knocked-down by a hit and run driver. In hospital the doctors reset her leg and when the Doc came round for his first post-op visit he said to my daughter. “Are you vegetarian?” “Yes” said daughter. “Well, you are very aneamic” said doctor “To recover from your injuries you need to be as strong as possible. Better start eating a proper diet today.” End of vegatarianism!
The case for humans being Omnivores:
Adapted from a talk by John McArdle, Ph.D.
http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm
Thank goodness for those animals that are able to convert rough forage – grass and herbaceous plants, into that high energy protein meat. Least some of us Northern Hemisphere aboriginals would not be here today. Vegans perhaps only apply to warmer than warm wet climates.
There is a state created museum in New Mexico that has a full auto/regulated dairy, that has one milk cow. Nice complex for one cow, but the intent and purpose (field trips) is today many children do not fully understand where and how milk comes from the cow. I asked the docent – retired Oklahoma cowboy, do the kids get to hand milk? Nope they say too dangerous’ was his answer. Electricity may have more to do with eating style-preference than another single factor.
Willis,
Gut wrenching stories…. but sadly, all too true. I had much the same experience some years ago while visiting a relief project for very poor kids that I help sponsor in the Northeast of Brazil. The families there were not dollar a day poor, but most were not much better off than $4 per day. The project coordinator (a priest) insisted that my wife, my daughter (14 at the time) and I join them for a project sponsored lunch. They pulled out all the stops, and served us rice, beans, and the most scrawny, bony roasted chicken I have ever seen…. no doubt grabbed from among the chickens I saw foraging around the project. I felt terrible about this, since I knew the kids at the project needed that chicken a lot more than we did. And doubly terrible when it became clear that while the honored American guests were eating chicken, the desperately poor kids were eating the usual… rice and beans. When I tried to eat just a little piece of the chicken, the people from the project insisted: “Não, você tem que comer a galinha!” No, you have to eat the chicken! I was not sure if they took offense, if they thought I was just crazy, or maybe a bit of both. So I told then I was not feeling well (O meu estômago esta’ ruim hoje.) and they finally let it go.
People who are vegetarians often insist everyone should only eat only plants due to the immorality of eating animals. This point of view is absolute rubbish… and absurdly, grotesquely immoral.