NOAA: behind the curve

Sol and NOAA predictions have a gap.

Here are some other graphs. The Ap magnetic index is up at least, but radio flux lags just like the spot count.

Source: http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/SolarCycle/

Since NOAA uses this on every press release, I suppose I should put it here.

NOAA understands and predicts changes in the Earth’s environment, from the depths of the oceans to surface of the sun, and conserves and manages our coastal and marine resources.

h/t to WUWT reader Stephan who says in comments:

OT but D Archibald right on track for SSN 40. The rest as usual way off.

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Ed Murphy
July 17, 2010 2:55 am

. . It now becomes obvious that the floods were not caused by Pacific sea surface temperatures (La Niña), but that the floods and La Niña were both caused by regular, and therefore predictable, changes in solar magnetic activity.
Whoa ! What the heck is wrong with me ?
We are perched on a crust separated from a big metal ball by a thin outer mantle area next to the crust that is the only thing that resembles the expanding magma that we see at eruptions.
So magnetics likely cause the eruptions. The big ball contracts after solar max, but the outer most outer mantle expands… Poof !
Then re-poof ! when the ball begins to expand again. All this is ever so slight but a big result in earthquakes and volcanism.

Mr. Alex
July 17, 2010 3:03 am

“stephan says:
July 16, 2010 at 1:38 pm
Thanks for H/T…Looks like D Archibald will be right on the temps prediction too! (-2C over next few years would seem to me to be spot on). I reckon it has begun…”
2 years ago I would have agreed with you, but now I tend to agree with the opinion that DA is not really credible.
Interesting new article here:
A PUZZLING COLLAPSE OF THE EARTH’S UPPER ATMOSPHERE
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2010/15jul_thermosphere/
IMO SC 24 will have sunspot maximum in the 70s with the tiny tims counted (universally accepted count), which would likely translate to a max in the 50s with the layman’s count.
Flux is very interesting to watch right now, especially this graph http://www.leif.org/research/F107%20at%20Minima%201954%20and%202008.png
It can be seen that F10.7 has fallen back to near minimum levels!

John Finn
July 17, 2010 3:10 am

tallbloke says:
July 17, 2010 at 2:19 am

As the last couple of solar threads showed, the solar influence turns up in temp records decade later, …
Really. Some of the more recent solar threads included David Archibald’s ‘correlations’ between solar cycle length and temperature. The conclusion from these being that temperature responds to cycle length over the period of the following cycle. Admittedly it isn’t altogether clear that this is the conclusion because David keeps showing the Butler & Johnson Armagh plot which plots the 11 year means centred on the solar cycle max and min. However, either way, a temperature response is expected well within a decade.
Isn’t it also claimed that the cold during the Dalton and Maunder minimum periods was due to the weak solar cycles at that time.
so if we look at the trend of the sunspot number 1940-1990 compared to the long term average of ~40:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/sidc-ssn/from:1940/to:1990/trend
There’s your global warming.

Are you saying that the warming which began in ~1975 was caused by a series of solar cycles which began in ~1940, i.e. there is ~35 year lag. Why didn’t the warming which was ongoing in 1940 continue?
I can certainly see the attraction of all these solar cycle theories. They can be – well – recycled. If the predicted temperature response fails in one theory – you can just pick another one with a longer lag time. Obviously you need to ignore that the whole basis for the orignal prediction was wrong but – not to worry – we simply move on.

Patrick
July 17, 2010 3:55 am

David wrote:
“I truly don’t understand your apparent determination to tear down scientific literacy in the U.S. Do you want China, Japan, etc., to leave us in the dust?”
If the US (and other western countries) continue to use bad science (cherry picking data, manipulating the data they can’t cherry pick to their way, relying on model predictions that contradict real life observations, discarding past science just because it doesn’t fit their views and whitewashed investigations into [mal] practise) to furthurtheir political agendes then the above countries and Russia will be doing just that, all on it own!!
Patrick.

kim
July 17, 2010 4:13 am

Eddy Minimum
And the grinning Cheshire Sun
Both went out to play.
===========

July 17, 2010 4:56 am

Geoff Sharp says:
July 16, 2010 at 10:18 pm

Proxy records suggest at least one non reversing pole during past grand minima, its not a huge leap to make this prediction


Geoff,
As Leif suggested, can you please indicate what is the record that you suggest shows the non-reversing (solar) pole? Also, if you know of any papers on non-reversing (solar) pole studies can you cite them. Thank you. You threw something new into the comment stream, so naturally I am curious and skeptical at the same time.
John

July 17, 2010 5:07 am

Casper says:
July 17, 2010 at 12:29 am
I suppose that this change in the relationship has something to do with that phenomena which was reported by Livinston and Penn.
We think so, yes.

July 17, 2010 5:16 am

I am surprised that someone has not already tossed in a suggestion of an earth magnetic pole reversal now that the solar pole reversal is on the table.
I am back in my Adirondack chair in the Adirondack mtns again on my blackberry 🙂
John

Pascvaks
July 17, 2010 5:52 am

Ref – David says:
July 16, 2010 at 9:58 am
“You folks really like to ridicule science in general, don’t you? What exactly is there to be gained by mocking the entire scientific enterprise? Do you really want the U.S. to be dominated by the illiterate? I truly don’t understand your apparent determination to tear down scientific literacy in the U.S. Do you want China, Japan, etc., to leave us in the dust?”
_____________________
I, for one, (and I doubt I’m alone) feel the ridicule of science -in general- is justified. The first defenders of science should be the scientists themselves, but where are they, the masses of PhD’s clamoring to defend their trade from Fat Albert & Co.; from the socialists who want to redistribute the world’s wealth so as to ‘level the playing field’; from the anarchists who want to ‘Stop Everything’ and ‘start all over again’, and maybe get it right after the chaos dies down in a few hundred years; from the Madoff’s who want to make a killing off ‘CO2 Credits’ (whatever they are); from the politicians who just want to stay in power and ‘help’ us all into poverty and chaos and to ‘burn baby burn’ this huge house of cards we call civilization into a pile of beautiful dust? No! I think they deserve everything we’re throwing at them; and so much more.
For some strange scarey reason I get the impression that –thanks to the AFL-CIO and the NEA, et al– we are the ‘GM’ of the world in primary education and already breathing mega-tons of dust. Our Soviet-style education is a cancer. It breeds failure and ignorance. It needs to go private. Close all the public K-12 schools. Give the parents the money and let them pick the school. ASAP!!
PS: I tend to boil on so called “American Un-Education” and “Fear in Science”. Let me count to ten, 1, 2, 3,….

mitchel44
July 17, 2010 7:27 am

Just curious, but why is it that the peak of cycle 24 appears to be much lower is this graph, http://www.solarcycle24.com/index2.htm , than in the one used at the start of this blog entry?
Is there a series of quiet updates to the cycle max prediction taking place by Dr Hathaway/NASA that is not getting the front page treatment?

July 17, 2010 8:23 am

Leif Svalgaard says: July 16, 2010 at 7:33 pm
Speculation can be false without invalidating your theory.
This time I agree.
Here I make a speculative prediction that during the next 100 years month of June’s CETs will not rise more than 0.02 degree C, whatever the sunspots do in the meantime.
Q. Why?
A: http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/CET-Jun.htm
Because we’re dealing with so many unknowns, forecasting is an absolute mug’s game at present.

July 17, 2010 9:15 am

John Whitman says: July 17, 2010 at 5:16 am
I am surprised that someone has not already tossed in a suggestion of an earth magnetic pole reversal now that the solar pole reversal is on the table.
Hi John
The Earth’s field is still too strong for an imminent reversal.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/VADM.htm

rbateman
July 17, 2010 9:57 am

Ed Murphy says:
July 17, 2010 at 2:32 am
Robert Bateman, please explain the eruptions part of your excellent looking graph to us, bud.

Why, certainly.
By going to the site http://www.volcano.si.edu/world/largeeruptions.cfm
and plotting the volcanoes per year, the 1st one being a black dot, and any subsequent being blue dots, red triangles or a yellow dot. Each dot is raised or lowered according to intensity (VEI index).
It needs updating, and revising, as I did it about a year ago.
It does show that volcanoes can occur at any time, and do at the cat 4 VEI level, but there is an unmistakable tendency to have more volcanoes at (or near) solar minimum. There are also mutiple volcanoes at/near solar max.
There is room for further investigation & clarification.

July 17, 2010 10:29 am

John Whitman says:
July 17, 2010 at 4:56 am
Geoff,
As Leif suggested, can you please indicate what is the record that you suggest shows the non-reversing (solar) pole? Also, if you know of any papers on non-reversing (solar) pole studies can you cite them. Thank you. You threw something new into the comment stream, so naturally I am curious and skeptical at the same time.

Here is a few to look at, I know there is more, perhaps Leif has some on file.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2007AdSpR..40.1917C
http://www.landscheidt.info/images/usoskin_maunder_nos.pdf
http://www.landscheidt.info/images/Miyahara_AG06.pdf
http://www.landscheidt.info/images/maunder_c14.pdf

Editor
July 17, 2010 11:00 am

Leif Svalgaard says: July 17, 2010 at 12:16 am
“As sure as everybody else is when they claim there is a correlation between A and B. I can re-phrase my statement: “I expect on simple theoretical grounds that there should be about a 0.1K effect [actually a little bit less, but I don’t deal in hundredth of degrees], and 0.1K is widely claimed to the order of magnitude of the solar cycle effect, so I’ll happily go along with that”.”
I like the addition of qualifiers, i.e. “I expect” “theoretical grounds” and “should”, as it is important that we do not overstate our degree of certainty. TSI aside, it is within the realm of possibility that the sun has other influences on Earth’s climate. For example, the interaction of the magnetic fields of the Sun and Earth, and the potential that this interaction influences volcanic activity, seems to merit further investigation.

July 17, 2010 11:09 am

Geoff Sharp says:
July 17, 2010 at 10:29 am
Here is a few to look at, I know there is more, perhaps Leif has some on file.
Those do not claim there were no reversals and show no data in support. One speculates that there were no reversal in one hemisphere and the last one explicitly says: “the Sun had retained the polarity reversal through the prolonged sunspot minimum period.”
So it looks like your references were based on wishful thinking.

rbateman
July 17, 2010 11:11 am

Leif:
Do you have a latest L&P update?

PJP
July 17, 2010 11:16 am

Someone mentioned how this graph has changed over time.
I went to the wayback machine, and found that there was very little archived there.
This is usually because someone asks for the archive to be removed … wonder if that is the case here.
Anyway, there was enough there to be interesting:
http://vogon.net/graph.jpg
This graph uses one from 30/6/08 as the base and I overlayed it with the current graph (6/2010). I changed the color of the current graph to green to separate it from the older graph.
The graphs are drawn differently, so getting an overlay is not easy without more work that I wanted to do, but its good enough for government work 🙂
The original graph seems to show the original prediction, along with the (then) current prediction. As mentioned elsewhere above, they do seem to be sliding the lower prediction along, hoping that it will eventually fit.

July 17, 2010 11:18 am

Just The Facts says:
July 17, 2010 at 11:00 am
I like the addition of qualifiers, i.e. “I expect” “theoretical grounds” and “should”,
“should” should perhaps better have been “must”, as the 0.1K change must happen given the change in input, unless it is drowned in the noise.
For example, the interaction of the magnetic fields of the Sun and Earth, and the potential that this interaction influences volcanic activity, seems to merit further investigation.
Since the energy in the magnetic fields is many orders of magnitude smaller, it seems highly unlikely that there is any effect from that interaction. If anything, one could entertain an effect in the opposite direction, at least as far as the Earth’s magnetic field is concerned.

July 17, 2010 11:19 am

rbateman says:
July 17, 2010 at 11:11 am
Leif: Do you have a latest L&P update?
The latest is always plotted on my website at http://www.leif.org/research/Livingston%20and%20Penn.png

July 17, 2010 11:28 am

PJP says:
July 17, 2010 at 11:16 am
they do seem to be sliding the lower prediction along
I think this is ordinary [and correct] practice. The weather service also [as they should] updates the weekly forecast every day taking into account the latest data.

rbateman
July 17, 2010 11:52 am

Leif Svalgaard says:
July 17, 2010 at 11:19 am
What I was thinking of doing was calculating the SSN for June by using L&P to reverse the loss.
i.e.- what would the SSN for June, 2010 be if the L&P had not been in effect, and does that account for the observed discrepancies?

Editor
July 17, 2010 12:22 pm

Leif Svalgaard says: July 17, 2010 at 11:19 am
“The latest is always plotted on my website at http://www.leif.org/research/Livingston%20and%20Penn.png
FYI, this version appears to be out of date:
http://www.leif.org/research/Livingston%20and%20Penn%20B.png

Invariant
July 17, 2010 12:26 pm

Hi Leif,
Please take a look at this curve: http://i26.tinypic.com/33n97rq.jpg. Now, imagine that this square wave is the 100 000 – year temperature pattern of ice ages which is caused by the Milankovitch cycles.
Questions:
* Is it likely that the temperature should be completely constant in between two ice ages as given is this curve? (This is the AGW version…)
* Or would it be more reasonable to expect considerable temperature variations at many frequencies? (Years, decades, centuries and millennia…)
Please consider the frequency spectrum of the many Milankovitch cycles, ocean cycles and the time it takes to increase the temperature of the oceans (from bottom to top) a couple of degrees.
Invariant

July 17, 2010 12:32 pm

rbateman says:
July 17, 2010 at 11:52 am
Leif Svalgaard says:
What I was thinking of doing was calculating the SSN for June by using L&P to reverse the loss.
i.e.- what would the SSN for June, 2010 be if the L&P had not been in effect, and does that account for the observed discrepancies?

One way would be to use F10.7.
This is what I get (year, month, Rz obs, Rz from F10.7):
2008 1 3.3 12.1
2008 2 2.1 8.7
2008 3 9.3 12.4
2008 4 2.9 10.2
2008 5 3.2 8.4
2008 6 3.4 6.8
2008 7 0.8 6.4
2008 8 0.5 6.6
2008 9 1.1 7.3
2008 10 2.9 8.1
2008 11 4.1 7.5
2008 12 0.8 8.0
2009 1 1.3 7.3
2009 2 1.4 7.7
2009 3 0.7 8.0
2009 4 0.8 9.9
2009 5 2.9 13.2
2009 6 2.9 13.3
2009 7 3.2 11.4
2009 8 0 8.9
2009 9 4.3 12.7
2009 10 4.8 14.6
2009 11 4.1 15.7
2009 12 10.8 20.1
2010 1 13.1 25.9
2010 2 18.6 30.4
2010 3 15.4 24.7
2010 4 7.9 21.7
2010 5 8.8 20.2
2010 6 13.5 18.9
2010 7 11.9 24.5