Where I live on the outskirts of Chico, I have an almost constant supply of wind. I’ve considered a wind turbine as a way of getting closer to being “off-grid” so that I don’t have to pay PG&E the exorbitant rates. After reading this ChicoER story, I think I’ll pass on a wind turbine and focus on more solar. – Anthony
From the Chico Enterprise-Record: Disturbing the silence: Wind turbine not sustaining to neighbors’ sleep
By HEATHER HACKING – ChicoER Staff Writer
CHICO — A year and a half ago when Don Steinsiek installed a wind turbine at the top of Stilson Canyon Road, he was excited to harness the wind.He had been interested in the technology for a while, and when tax credits and rebates became available, he went for it.
The wind will vary, but he figured with the incentives, he could pay off his $82,000 investment in six or seven years.
When energy generation is greater than his use, he can sell electricity to the grid for 5 cents a kilowatt. But overall, he said the turbine provides energy for about two-thirds of his energy use.
It sounded like a good plan, and fit with the trend toward renewable energy sources. But neighbors say the wind turbine ruins the quiet nature of the neighborhood, lowers their property values and deprives them of sleep.
At Tuesday’s Board of Supervisors meeting there was a lengthy discussion of Steinsiek’s turbine.
The state is passing new rules that will make it easier to install small wind structures, explained Tim Snellings, county development services director. Unless Butte County passes its own rules before Dec. 31, the new state rules will apply, he continued.
Neighbors took the opportunity to talk about the wind turbine.
O.J. Sutherland lives at the bottom of the hill from the turbine. He described the sound as similar to a “hovering helicopter to a whining or moaning sound.”
He told the supervisors some neighbors have changed the rooms in which they sleep, others wear earplugs and some just can’t sleep.”We no longer have a quiet neighborhood. There is only one acceptable relief — to remove it,” Sutherland said.
Farther down the road is Gary Marquis, who said for 20 years he has heard frogs and crickets. “Now I listen to a wind turbine,” he said.
Read the full story here at the ChicoER
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
The issue of sound is a classic case of an economic externality; that is, an instance in which one party is engaging in an activity some of the costs of which are borne by an unrelated party. (For instance, consider a paper mill situated on a river that is polluting the water upstream from a fishing resort. The resort suffers an externality of the mill’s operation.)
The two remedies are abatement or compensation. The owner of the windmill must alter the device such that it produces a reasonably low level of noise, or he must compensate the affected parties directly, or pay for soundproofing, etc.
It is an all too common tactic for those in favor of these types of programs to ignore the externalities associated with the favored project. (They’re green after all, and green is doubleplusgood!) For instance, in the case of rail transit, the supposed carbon savings of operating the system as compared to automobile traffic always ignores the carbon emitted during construction of the system. When that is taken into account, the timeline to recoup the added emissions is often on the order of 70 or 80 years, during which time the system would have to be rebuilt several times anyway.
Gail Combs says:
July 15, 2010 at 7:08 pm
Towns in the People’s Republic of Taxachusetts have you beat. They come onto your PRIVATE property and place a meter on the well you have drilled and paid for!
Oh and do not forget that towns are now selling off their Municipal Water Authorities to foreign investors. So you could drill a well and have to pay a Saudi for your water…..
Amazing: The place in which the ‘shot heard ’round the world’ was fired, has finally sunk into the miasma of rank apathy.
Will they next sell their children into slavery? That can’t be far away …
@feettothefire: This way of life is not for everyone, although I wouldn’t go as far as saying it would be an impossibility. However, it is a personal choice, not a moral proclamation. I would argue that running a full-time solar system like ours has no benefit to the environment, due to GG emissions involved in the manufacture of the panels as well as disposal of batteries in the long term. We were paying among the highest for property taxes + ultilities in Canada, with no end to future increases in sight. Added to this, the political agenda to monetize carbon was the impetus for us to get off the grid and live self-sufficiently. (Incidentally, most people do not consider this lifestyle to be even remotely elitist, particularly when they learn you have to give up the crock pot and dishwasher, just to name a few electricity-draining luxuries.)
@899: Sadly, I do not doubt your account, but I would argue our Alberta government would have more of a fight on their hands if they attempted to pass such ludicrous laws here as they have done in your “green” state. In fact, we are entitled to a reduction in property taxes because we are not tied into the electric grid or natural gas.
Lots of negative features to consider about wind and a few are mentioned on this page. There are a lot more and here is one….a serious one because it hits everyone in the wallet. It’s called metal fatigue and it will hit every thermal power plant out there on every grid that is also trying to accommodate wind as part of the mix of power supply options.
It works like this…..One upon a time, we lived in a predictable world where every day, power requirements would ramp up starting first thing in the morning corresonding to about when folks jumped in the shower, put on the coffee maker and made some toast. Within a few hours, the grid load would hit its peak and with some variations, it would stay there all day. Then in the latter part of the afternoon, load would start to drop off and from the dinner hour on to say 11 pm, it would continue to drop at a fairly regular rate. From 11 pm to the next morning while most people were in bed, the overall load stayed at its lowest point and then the next morning, the cycle started all over again.
The grid itself is of course supplied by various generation sources…nuclear, hydro-electric, thermal power plants etc. The important thing is that some of these can adjust to load quite easily and some do not. For example, nuclear doesn’t adjust much at all and therefore, it is normal for a grid operator to consider this to be part of what is referred to as the base load. If hydro-electric is available, this is also consider to be suitable for the base load since the same amount of water goes over the falls regardless if it is day or night. Thermal has historically been the generating capacity that is used for what what would be termed the fluctuating load… put more gas or coal in a boiler, get more power out. Oh…..power demand is going down, start slowing down the rate for burning coal or gas. What this has meant for thermal power plants is that once a day, load would go through a complete cycle from low to high demand.
Against the above backdrop, now add wind into the mix. Nuclear and hydro-electric will still handle the base load since they can’t fluctuate. Wind can fluctuate but not predictably…. thus the onus will be on the gas and coal fired plants to pick up the slack. This presents endless problems…. the first is simply that if we assume that there is a very high capacity of wind installed, the thermal plants will be in idle mode most of the time and this is their least efficient operating point. The real problem though is load fluctation…. whereas the plants used to go through once cycle of load variations a day, now they will be asked to go through a much larger number as wind comes and goes all day long. Ask any power engineer what she/he thinks it will do to the power plant to ‘load follow’ in this way and I guarantee that the answer you will get is that it will create a maintenance and reliability nightmare for them. Fluctuating loads cause much reduced equipment life due to fatigue.
The ASME Power Conference is on in Chicago this week and this is the hot botton topic at this conference… http://www.asmeconferences.org/power2010/ I know because my chief engineer is there presenting a paper and this is his firsthand observation.
Gail Combs says:
July 15, 2010 at 7:08 pm
“Towns in the People’s Republic of Taxachusetts have you beat. They come onto your PRIVATE property and place a meter on the well you have drilled and paid for!
Oh and do not forget that towns are now selling off their Municipal Water Authorities to foreign investors. So you could drill a well and have to pay a Saudi for your water…..”
_____________________
Again, maybe things are different in Alberta, but I cannot imagine our government thinking they could attempt this and not face a coup d’etat by a bunch of redneck, gun-toting, libertarian Albertans. lol
How do we know that pulling all of this energy out of the atmosphere is not changing circulation patterns and aiding and abetting “global warming?” The whole idea of using these things to do more than pump water picked up in the ’70s when we were in the midst of “global cooling” and look where we are now!
899 says:
July 15, 2010 at 7:36 pm
Amazing: The place in which the ‘shot heard ’round the world’ was fired, has finally sunk into the miasma of rank apathy.
Will they next sell their children into slavery? That can’t be far away …
______________________________________________________
It is worse than that, in 1991 I was at a dance in the Concord Scout House (a revolutionary war building) and actually had someone scream in my face “we will kill people like you when we take over” because I was wearing a T-shirt that said:
WELCOME TO MASSACHUSETTS
Check your guns!
Put your helmets on!
Fasten your seatbelts!
Leave all personal liberties and rights at the border
YOUR FREEDOM ENDS HERE!
I guess the T-shirt was correct and the guy was upset I had figured it out.
Sound propagates in unexpected ways.
Several years ago a new oil well was being drillled at a nearby farm. For at least 2 weeks we heard the drone of the drilling (but weren’t exactly sure where the sound come from). My husband and I both had rig experience, but we could not figure out the location of source. I called around (including local law enforcement), and nobody else heard, complained, or could explain the ever-present (slightly irritating to me) noise.
I had to know the source. I got in the car and drove around. Turning off the engine, I sat and listened at several places in between our house and where we thought the sound originated. Nothing was to be heard…..
A few days later, frustrated by the drone, I drove off again. I found the rig at a high spot only a mile from our house (off a private drive) located on the vector I had thought the sound originated from. Days earlier, I sat and listened at the halfway point but didn’t hear a thing (that spot was in a valley between the rig and our house.) Eventually, the drilling stopped, and the sound “intrusion” did as well.
I don’t think they hit oil, (too bad), but I’m glad we no longer have to put up with the noise.
My point is, while I haven’t had to deal with problems from a wind mill, I would not be surprised if the vibrations and sound are felt or heard where conscientious planners don’t expect.
@vern says (July 15, 2010 at 7:53 pm), I agree with everything you said and the same also applies to individual, part-time solar systems. A family member who is working in for a US company involved in the grid restructuring project shares your opinion. He said the N. American grid can’t handle more than 10% of individual homeowners acquiring pt, tied-in systems because of the consequent unpredictable fluctuations. It would wreak havoc on the entire system.
Soon, in my opinion, the same government who is now pushing green technology on the american consumer, will be enacting laws to prevent consumers from setting up solar systems (or wind, etc) unless they are 100% off grid systems. Production and distribution of these larger systems, in lieu of the smaller, more affordable tied-in systems, will be a benefit to the industry, no doubt. Not the consumer so much.
The economics of these machines are not even remotely plausible.
A flat out lie.
The town of Palmerston North in New Zealand has a wind plant above it. The plant was, and is, not subsidised. Yet it makes money, albeit not very much.
This in a country where electricity is cheap, since it is blessed with hydroelectric power plus a bit of geothermal. We don’t burn coal, except in peak times, because it isn’t economic, despite having quite a lot of it. Nuclear isn’t even close to economic, even if Kiwis would put up with one.
I know many of you hate wind turbines, but at least stick to the truth. Wind power can be economic, in ideal circumstances.
The economics of wind turbines depends on many factors – wind reliability, location of nearby users, the cost of the land etc. In most places at most times it is not yet economic. But to say that it can never be economic is just your hate talking.
899 says:
July 15, 2010 at 7:36 pm
“Amazing: The place in which the ‘shot heard ’round the world’ was fired, has finally sunk into the miasma of rank apathy.
Will they next sell their children into slavery? That can’t be far away …”
===========================
Some, it seems, prefer slavery over freedom.
Who can calculate the tip speed of one of these turbines? In the movie Dog of Flanders the villain is killed when he absentmindedly walks into the path of an oncoming windmill vane. The same thing happened in real life to a reconstructed windmill in Fulton Illinois – except the guy was only seriously injured. I have to think that the same happens to birds and bats from time to time.
Here is a video that I saw from Wisconsin that had me really questioning wind for suburban use.
Mamikon Spinner design for wind turbines
A safe addendum to many scientific conclusions is this: Further research is needed. It may be possible to improve the overall performance of wind rotors by tweaking their design. I’d like to see more research on the Mamikon Spinner.
“Hi-Q Products has been awarded a grant from the California Energy Commission to develop “cutting-edge‿ advanced wind rotor system. The Mamikon Spinner, based on single strip geometry, is stronger and more stable than 3 blade designs. Able to spin in the slightest breeze, it is designed for sites with a high percentage of low wind days.”
Read the patent description here. http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6524073/description.html
You can make your own small-scale version of the Mamikon Spinner with tin snips, a used soda pop can, super-glue, and a few other household items.
Mamikon has shown me toy versions of his Spinner; they really do respond to faint breezes. A small advantage is that Mamikon Spinners are more visible to birds than conventional wind rotors. And if the small-scale Spinners are any indication, commercial-size ones may be quieter than the 3-blade turbines.
Last year, Mamikon was involved in litigation with Hi-Q, but I don’t know the outcome. Mamikon Mnatsakanian is a physicist and mathematician from Armenia.
plenty of oil in Alaska. we could have gas at $1.00 a gallon if we wanted. Saudi Arabia has that.
plenty of coal in West Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Ohio, etc. We could probably cut electricity bills 66%, or even more, if we wanted.
lots of options in life 🙂
Anthony,
You might want to reconsider Solar as well.
After spending 10 million on a solar panel array on his Nashville mansion, Gore’s public energy use was another 10,000 KW more than the 250,000 that caused him grief the year before.
If you want to get off the grid I can tell you some nice mountain sites in Washington or Alaska that you would enjoy much more than all that headache. 🙂
If you want, our families could share neighboring caves and I could be your assistant and pedal the bike so you could have energy to run your laptop and we could go halves on a satelite wireless system for internet access. 🙂 I’m a good fisherman if you’re a good hunter.
Mooloo says:
July 15, 2010 at 8:54 pm
The economics of these machines are not even remotely plausible.
A flat out lie.
“A flat out lie.”
You don’t know the poster, yet you crassly accuse him of prevarication.
Mooloo says:
July 15, 2010 at 8:54 pm
The town of Palmerston North in New Zealand has a wind plant above it. The plant was, and is, not subsidised. Yet it makes money, albeit not very much.
And you’re an ‘authority’ on this matter?
Mooloo says:
July 15, 2010 at 8:54 pm
This in a country where electricity is cheap, since it is blessed with hydroelectric power plus a bit of geothermal. We don’t burn coal, except in peak times, because it isn’t economic, despite having quite a lot of it. Nuclear isn’t even close to economic, even if Kiwis would put up with one.
I know many of you hate wind turbines, but at least stick to the truth. Wind power can be economic, in ideal circumstances.
And where you reside happens to be the most IDEAL place in the universe, right?
At this point, should we consider that you’re either a prevaricator, or someone prone to exaggeration?
Mooloo says:
July 15, 2010 at 8:54 pm
The economics of wind turbines depends on many factors – wind reliability, location of nearby users, the cost of the land etc. In most places at most times it is not yet economic. But to say that it can never be economic is just your hate talking.
Yeah, and we –the rest of us– can see you own as it ~blows~ across the Internet …
This guy is spending in the neighborhood of ten figures annually for electricity for a house?
Is he growing weed in the basement or something? I pay the highest electricity rates in the country, use energy-hogging appliances and I can barely drive my monthly bill to $250. I don’t need air conditioning, but even if I did, I could hardly double the bill.
Larry Fields says:
July 15, 2010 at 10:50 pm
Mamikon Spinner design for wind turbines
My goodness, man, it’s a Möbius strip!
Amino Acids in Meteorites says:
July 15, 2010 at 10:53 pm
plenty of oil in Alaska. we could have gas at $1.00 a gallon if we wanted. Saudi Arabia has that.
plenty of coal in West Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Ohio, etc. We could probably cut electricity bills 66%, or even more, if we wanted.
lots of options in life 🙂
You are MOST correct!
Funny thing: If it came right down to it, and the BIG PRESS was on, the PEOPLE –you and I– would go for drilling and digging for all necessities, whilst the green weenies would be screaming and pulling their hair out.
They would be doing that for only as long as there was food on the table, clothes on their backs, and a roof over their respective heads.
BUT, as soon as that ended, they would drop all pretenses in less than a heartbeat, and embrace the ‘NEW’ way of living, which would be the OLDER way of living.
As my grandfather once said to me: “Kid, some people bitch every chance they get, but when reality hits home, they become speechless!”
HankHenry says:
July 15, 2010 at 10:05 pm
Who can calculate the tip speed of one of these turbines? In the movie Dog of Flanders the villain is killed when he absentmindedly walks into the path of an oncoming windmill vane. The same thing happened in real life to a reconstructed windmill in Fulton Illinois – except the guy was only seriously injured. I have to think that the same happens to birds and bats from time to time.
See this: http://www.algebralab.org/lessons/lesson.aspx?file=Trigonometry_TrigAngLinVelocity.xml
Go down to the second example: Angular Velocity.
I hope that helps!
@RACookPE1978 says: July 15, 2010 at 1:56 pm
“A strongly recommended book:
The Wind Farm Scam by John Etherington.”
This book is a fine source of information on Big Wind. Strongly endorse RA Cook’s recommendation.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wind-Farm-Scam-Independent-Minds/dp/1905299834/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279262164&sr=1-1
We have around 3000 turbines in the UK. During the first 6 months of the year they actually produced 0.8% of our electricity (and zero percent of our non-electricity energy use). Over the coming decade, the Government energy Regulator OFGEM predicts an average domestic electricity bill will rise to £5,000 per year.
The maximum state pension for old people is (from 6 April 2010): Single person – £97.65 per week; Married Couple – £156.15 per week. The reason for this predicted rise in electricity bills is almost entirely the projected cost of moving to “low carbon” energy.
Readers are advised to speculate on how much “carbon” we are saving with our 3,000 turbines and the reduction in the alarmists’ prediction of global temperature rise that will be achieved. (clue:- the square root of bugger all). You may also care to guess whether the Government’s planned expenditure of £100 Billion in the next decade in building a further 6,000 turbines will (a) reduce the global temperature even more (clue:- 2x the square root of bugger all) and (b) represents a sensible investment at a time when all Government expenditure is due to be slashed by 25% or more and unemployment stands at two and a half million. (and before you pipe up, it has been estimated that 90% of Big Wind jobs generated will be overseas.)
Brad aka 1personofdifference says:
July 15, 2010 at 11:00 pm
Anthony,
You might want to reconsider Solar as well.
After spending 10 million on a solar panel array on his Nashville mansion, Gore’s public energy use was another 10,000 KW more than the 250,000 that caused him grief the year before.
If you want to get off the grid I can tell you some nice mountain sites in Washington or Alaska that you would enjoy much more than all that headache. 🙂
If you want, our families could share neighboring caves and I could be your assistant and pedal the bike so you could have energy to run your laptop and we could go halves on a satelite wireless system for internet access. 🙂 I’m a good fisherman if you’re a good hunter.
So, Brad, do you ‘chew’ your laundry, or pass it off to the old lady? 😉
When I was I kid, for a while I had to hand-launder my own clothes because my parents couldn’t afford the electrical bill. It was fun: I got to know my own clothes in ways I would never have otherwise!
My old man related to me a story about some forty-niners’ who –lacking local water– decided to chew their clothes clean, because the effort of carrying water up a steep incline was seen as too much of a waste of effort for clean clothes.
I always figured he was putting me on … 🙂
899 says:
July 15, 2010 at 11:17 pm
Larry Fields says:
July 15, 2010 at 10:50 pm
Mamikon Spinner design for wind turbines
“My goodness, man, it’s a Möbius strip!”
Close! A Möbius has one half-twist. In contrast, the Spinners that I’ve seen have three. And the viewed from the top, this version of the Spinner is the famous recycling symbol!
Larry Fields says:
July 16, 2010 at 1:50 am
*
*
Larry,
I’m wont to declare that if one were to take that design to the ‘nth degree, why they’d wind up with a conventional small wind mill, or something not unlike the compressor in and axial flow jet engine.
The only difference is that the center of mass would be closer to the periphery of the device instead of at the hub/spindle.
At high-speed, the hummer could be deadly!!