Lord Monckton wins global warming debate at Oxford Union

I’m waiting for actual photos of the event from the official photographer, but for now I’ll make do with what can be found on the Internet. For those who don’t know, the Oxford Union is the top of the food chain for scholarly debate. This is a significant win.

File:OxfordUnionTwo20040228CopyrightKaihsuTai.png
The Oxford Union Debate Chamber - image from Wikimedia

Founded in 1823 at the University of Oxford, but maintaining a separate charter from the University, The Oxford Union is host to some of the most skillful debates in the world. Many eminent scholars and personalities have come and either debated or delivered speeches in the chamber. Monckton was invited as part of the formal Thursday debate.

It is described as follows:

The Union is the world’s most prestigious debating society, with an unparalleled reputation for bringing international guests and speakers to Oxford. It has been established for 182 years, aiming to promote debate and discussion not just in Oxford University, but across the globe.

Here is a view inside from a previous debate:

http://mba.sbsblogs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/06-the-oxford-union-debating-chamber-pic-courtesy-rajiv-dabas-2.jpg
The Debate Chamber - Photo by: Rajiv Dabas

From the SPPI Blog, an account of the debate:

Oxford Union Debate on Climate Catastrophe

Source:  SPPI

Army of Light and Truth 135, Forces of Darkness 110

For what is believed to be the first time ever in England, an audience of university undergraduates has decisively rejected the notion that “global warming” is or could become a global crisis. The only previous defeat for climate extremism among an undergraduate audience was at St. Andrew’s University, Scotland, in the spring of 2009, when the climate extremists were defeated by three votes.

Last week, members of the historic Oxford Union Society, the world’s premier debating society, carried the motion “That this House would put economic growth before combating climate change” by 135 votes to 110. The debate was sponsored by the Science and Public Policy Institute, Washington DC.

Serious observers are interpreting this shock result as a sign that students are now impatiently rejecting the relentless extremist propaganda taught under the guise of compulsory environmental-studies classes in British schools, confirming opinion-poll findings that the voters are no longer frightened by “global warming” scare stories, if they ever were.

When the Union’s president, Laura Winwood, announced the result in the Victorian-Gothich Gladstone Room, three peers cheered with the undergraduates, and one peer drowned his sorrows in beer.

Lord Lawson of Blaby, Margaret Thatcher’s former finance minister, opened the case for the proposition by saying that the economic proposals put forward by the UN’s climate panel and its supporters did not add up. It would be better to wait and see whether the scientists had gotten it right. It was not sensible to make expensive spending commitments, particularly at a time of great economic hardship, when the effectiveness of the spending was gravely in doubt and when it might do more harm than good.

At one point, Lord Lawson was interrupted by a US student, who demanded to know what was his connection with the Science and Public Policy Institute, and what were the Institute’s sources of funding. Lord Lawson was cheered when he said he neither knew nor cared who funded the Institute.

Ms. Zara McGlone, Secretary of the Oxford Union, opposed the motion, saying that greenhouse gases had an effect [they do, but it is very small]; that the precautionary principle required immediate action, just in case and regardless of expense [but one must also bear in mind the cost of the precautions themselves, which can and often do easily exceed the cost of inaction]; that Bangladesh was sinking beneath the waves [a recent study by Prof. Niklas Moerner shows that sea level in Bangladesh has actually fallen]; that the majority of scientists believed “global warming” was a problem [she offered no evidence for this]; and that “irreversible natural destruction” would occur if we did nothing [but she did not offer any evidence].

Mr. James Delingpole, a blogger for the leading British conservative national newspaper The Daily Telegraph, seconded the proposition, saying that – politically speaking – the climate extremists had long since lost the argument. The general public simply did not buy the scare stories any more. The endless tales of Biblical disasters peddled by the alarmist faction were an unwelcome and now fortunately failed recrudescence of dull, gray Puritanism. Instead of hand-wringing and bed-wetting, we should celebrate the considerable achievements of the human race and start having fun.

Lord Whitty, a Labor peer from the trades union movement and, until recently, Labor’s Environment Minister in the Upper House, said that the world’s oil supplies were rapidly running out [in fact, record new finds have been made in the past five years]; that we needed to change our definition of economic growth to take into account the value lost when we damaged the environment [it is artificial accounting of this kind that has left Britain as bankrupt as Greece after 13 years of Labor government]; that green jobs created by governments would help to end unemployment [but Milton Friedman won his Nobel Prize for economics by demonstrating that every artificial job created at taxpayers’ expense destroys two real jobs in the wealth-producing private sector]; that humans were the cause of most of the past century’s warming [there is no evidence for that: the case is built on speculation by programmers of computer models]; that temperature today was at its highest in at least 40 million years [in fact, it was higher than today by at least 12.5 F° for most of the past 550 million years]; and that 95% of scientists believed our influence on the climate was catastrophic [no one has asked them].

Lord Monckton repeatedly interrupted Lord Whitty to ask him to give a reference in the scientific literature for his suggestion that 95% of scientists believed our influence on the climate was catastrophic. Lord Whitty was unable to provide the source for his figure, but said that everyone knew it was true. Under further pressure from Lord Monckton, Lord Whitty conceded that the figure should perhaps be 92%. Lord Monckton asked: “And your reference is?” Lord Whitty was unable to reply. Hon. Members began to join in, jeering “Your reference? Your reference?” Lord Whitty sat down looking baffled.

Lord Leach of Fairford, whom Margaret Thatcher appointed a Life Peer for his educational work, spoke third for the proposition. He said that we no longer knew whether or not there had been much “global warming” over the 20th century, because the Climategate emails had exposed the terrestrial temperature records as defective. In any event, he said, throwing good money after bad on various alternative-energy boondoggles was unlikely to prove profitable in the long term and would ultimately do harm.

Mr. Rajesh Makwana, executive director of “Share The World’s Resources”, speaking third for the opposition, said that climate change was manmade [but he did not produce any evidence for that assertion]; that CO2 emissions were growing at 3% a year [but it is concentrations, not emissions, that may in theory affect climate, and concentrations are rising at a harmless 0.5% a year]; that the UN’s climate panel had forecast a 7 F° “global warming” for the 21st century [it’s gotten off to a bad start, with a cooling of 0.2 F° so far]; and that the consequences of “global warming” would be dire [yet, in the audience, sat Mr. Klaus-Martin Schulte, whose landmark paper of 2008 had established that not one of 539 scientific papers on “global climate change” provided any evidence whatsoever that “global warming” would be catastrophic].

Lord Monckton, a former science advisor to Margaret Thatcher during her years as Prime Minister of the UK, concluded the case for the proposition. He drew immediate laughter and cheers when he described himself as “Christopher Walter, Third Viscount Monckton of Brenchley, scholar, philanthropist, wit, man about town, and former chairman of the Wines and Spirits Committee of this honourable Society”. At that point his cummerbund came undone. He held it up to the audience and said, “If I asked this House how long this cummerbund is, you might telephone around all the manufacturers and ask them how many cummerbunds they made, and how long each type of cummerbund was, and put the data into a computer model run by a zitty teenager eating too many doughnuts, and the computer would make an expensive guess. Or you could take a tape-measure and” – glaring at the opposition across the despatch-box – “measure it!” [cheers].

Lord Monckton said that real-world measurements, as opposed to models, showed that the warming effect of CO2 was a tiny fraction of the estimates peddled by the UN’s climate panel. He said that he would take his lead from Lord Lawson, however, in concentrating on the economics rather than the science. He glared at the opposition again and demanded whether, since they had declared themselves to be so worried about “global warming”, they would care to tell him – to two places of decimals and one standard deviation – the UN’s central estimate of the “global warming” that might result from a doubling of atmospheric CO2 concentration. The opposition were unable to reply. Lord Monckton told them the answer was 3.26 plus or minus 0.69 Kelvin or Celsius degrees. An Hon. Member interrupted: “And your reference is?” Lord Monckton replied: “IPCC, 2007, chapter 10, box 10.2.” [cheers]. He concluded that shutting down the entire global economy for a whole year, with all the death, destruction, disaster, disease and distress that that would cause, would forestall just 4.7 ln(390/388) = 0.024 Kelvin or Celsius degrees of “global warming”, so that total economic shutdown for 41 years would prevent just 1 K of warming. Adaptation as and if necessary would be orders of magnitude cheaper and more cost-effective.

Mr. Mike Mason, founder and managing director of “Climate Care”, concluded for the opposition. He said that the proposition were peculiar people, and that Lord Monckton was more peculiar than most, in that he was not a real Lord. Lord Monckton, on a point of order, told Mr. Mason that the proposition had avoided personalities and that if Mr. Mason were unable to argue other than ad hominem he should “get out”. [cheers] Mr. Mason then said that we had to prepare for climate risks [yes, in both directions, towards cooler as well as warmer]; and that there was a “scientific consensus” [but he offered no evidence for the existence of any such consensus, still less for the notion that science is done by consensus].

The President thanked the speakers and expressed the Society’s gratitude to the Science and Public Policy Institute for sponsoring the debate. Hon. Members filed out of the Debating Chamber, built to resemble the interior of the House of Commons, and passed either side of the brass division-pole at the main door – Ayes to the right 135, Noes to the left 110. Motion carried.


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anna v
May 25, 2010 3:01 am

Mike says:
May 24, 2010 at 9:43 pm
However, if the cost of reducing GHG turns out to be very high, we can back off and try something else. We are not jumping off a cliff. I will add that this is an area I do not know a great deal about, but I am trying to learn more. As of now I support cap-and-trade, but I may change my mind as I learn more.
Let me illustrate very simply the cost of cap and trade, or carbon tax, or restriction of coal and oil energy.
Let us hypothesize that the AGW crowd is correct and that CO2 is the grand culprit of the 0.7C warming we have seen the past fifty years. CO2 went from 280 in the end of the 19th century to 380ppm now.
Saying humanity has to go back to 280ppm CO2 by reducing energy coming from burning fuels to that level, means that the 6 billion or so people on earth will now have to make do with the energy used by the 1billion people 150 years ago.
Even ignoring that the consumption per capita was smaller in the 19th century, would you be willing to cut your energy needs by 1/6th?
Willing to kill off 5/6ths of the human population in order to keep your energy level?
That is what it will take to go back to 280ppm.
So even if the Chicken Littles are correct and the sky is falling, adaptation is the only humane and rational option.
The numbers are simple.
While humans experienced major climate changes in the past these occurred gradually. Furthermore, human civilization has not experienced the rate of change in climate conditions that we are very likely to experience. Do keep that in mind.
Humans adjust within the year to temperature changes of 20 and 30C.
Within a month to tide changes of 2meters.
What do you mean by rapid? 2C per century is slow, as well as 60cm sea change per century. You easily walk away from it.

Beth Cooper
May 25, 2010 3:32 am

Jim Cripwell, good debate requires more than eloquence. The AGW team couldn’t back up their open ended claims with evidence when challenged. The other side could.

Reference
May 25, 2010 3:37 am

No one has projected that Earth will end up like Venus…
Really?
Stephen Hawking warns about warming
Celebrity cosmologist says Earth could end up as hot as Venus
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13485170

Mike Ozanne
May 25, 2010 3:44 am

“crosspatch says:
May 24, 2010 at 4:56 pm
Sincere congratulations to Mr. Monckton (his lordship apparently brought into question and I have no specific knowledge one way or the other).”
There was a reform made to the House of Lords by that nice Mr Blair (House of Lords Act 1999) which reduced the number of hereditary peers sitting in the legislature to 92 who are selected by ballot by the other hereditary peers. Lord Monckton is a hereditary peer who does not sit in the legislature . So yes he is a “real live lord” with letters patent and grant of arms etc etc but he is not a member of the House of Lords.
This may have been the point that the tosser in question was trying to make….:-)

Grumbler
May 25, 2010 4:06 am

“chris1958 says:
May 24, 2010 at 5:50 pm
The Oxford Union has an interesting record. Possibly O/T but here goes:
From Wikipedia: ‘The King and Country debate was a discussion at the Oxford Union debating society on 9 February, 1933 of the resolution: “That this House will in no circumstances fight for its King and Country”. It was passed by 275 votes to 153, and became one of the most well-known and notorious debates conducted in the Union.’”
I think we have to consider the previous generation of students had been wiped out in the first world war [tiddlywinks 11 only had one survior if I recall – and I think he bought it eventually] so to vote for war at that time would have been like turkeys voting for Xmas. Place things in context.
cheers David

Grumbler
May 25, 2010 4:14 am

“Mike Mason – Managing Director – Climate Care
could only resort to abusing Lord Monckton personally:
he said “that Lord Monckton was more peculiar than most”
Sad. He gets a few of these attacks. We need to remind ourselves that Lord MoNckton suffers from Graves disease which gives him that peculiar stare but other symptoms include irritability and sensitivity to heat etc. Give the guy a break.
cheers David

Ralph
May 25, 2010 4:29 am

Lord Monckton a real lord??
I am not an expert in this, but the contention is that he is not a ‘real’ Lord because he cannot sit in the House of Lords (Britain’s upper house).
However, he is a Viscount, and as such his formal address is “My Lord”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscount
I think the challenge is somewhat technical, as his aristocratic credentials are far higher than some garbage cleaner who has been raised to the House of Lords by our previous woeful government. Perhaps he should call himself Viscount Monckton, to which you reply “Good afternoon, my Lord”.

REPLY:
That’s exactly how I’ve seen his title “The Viscount Monckton of Brenchley”. Not that it matters. It’s like asking Al Gore if he’s a real politician -A
.

May 25, 2010 4:34 am


There have been comments made regarding Mr. Monckton’s title of nobility, and to offer my own perspective on the matter, permit me to observe that since I first began to review his work – which began about a year prior to the Climategate de-pantsing of the CRU correspondents – I’ve been referring to him as “Mr. Monckton.”
For a conscientious American, hereditary titles are problematic. Unless one is breeding beef cattle or show dogs, the persistent and perpetual appreciation of an entity’s genetic complement (or alleged genetic heritage; remember, there’s a whole lot of sexual promiscuity in both human history and the human character) detracts from attention which should be paid to the individual himself.
Besides, I cannot escape cognizance of Tom Paine’s characterization of the United Kingdom’s Second Estate as having descended from A French bastard landing with an armed Banditti and establishing himself king of England against the consent of the natives….

Mark K
May 25, 2010 4:41 am

netdr says:
May 24, 2010 at 5:13 pm
… Lysenkoism was a scientific concept that acquired traits could be passed from parent to child. We now know this cannot be true but all scientific societies in Russia at one time endorsed this flawed concept.
Actually, epigenetics has now shown that it is true and Lysenko was only mostly wrong. Unfortunate that he didn’t do actual quality research, while not disproving genetics, he could have added a lot to man’s knowledge of it. Today’s climate scientists could take a lesson from history.

Bull
May 25, 2010 4:53 am

“Serious observers are interpreting this shock result as a sign that students are now impatiently rejecting the relentless extremist propaganda taught under the guise of compulsory environmental-studies classes in British schools, confirming opinion-poll findings that the voters are no longer frightened by “global warming” scare stories, if they ever were.”
Probably more to do with UK being crushed economically by a green EU than any systematic rejection of climate change. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

morgo
May 25, 2010 5:07 am

HE HAS MORE BRAINS AND WIT THAN ANY SCIENTISTS THAT WE KNOW

Area Man
May 25, 2010 5:24 am

Nice. Very nice. Although judging from the play-by-play, the opposition was so inept it is discouraging they garnered 110 votes. Not surprising, though, as religion is very effective at resisting logic.

Peter B
May 25, 2010 5:33 am

As an hereditary peer, Monckton is a “real” Lord, in fact, he’s of the “original kind” of Lord. However, since the reform of the House of Lords some 10 years ago, only a very small number of hereditary peers can actually sit and vote in the House of Lords. As far as I know, Lord Monckton may eventually be elected to be one of those (if the House of Lords isn’t reformed further), but at the moment, he’s not one of them. So he’s perfectly in his right to refer to himself as Lord Monckton and to call himself a “real” Lord. He’s in far muddier ground when he calls himself “a member of the House of Lords” or “of the upper house of Parliament”, and I think he should avoid the issue.

Jimbo
May 25, 2010 5:47 am

Mike says:
May 24, 2010 at 9:43 pm
While humans experienced major climate changes in the past these occurred gradually. Furthermore, human civilization has not experienced the rate of change in climate conditions that we are very likely to experience.

What does gradually mean?

“these abrupt climate changes were associated in the NW Alps with Mont Blanc glacier advances…” source

“Greenland ice-core records provide an exceptionally clear picture of many aspects of abrupt climate changes, and particularly of those associated with the Younger Dryas event, as reviewed here.

….the Earth experienced abrupt climate changes synchronous with Greenland within thirty years or less. Post-Younger Dryas changes have not duplicated the size, extent and rapidity of these paleoclimatic changes.”source

Imagine if the following were to happen today:

“A stalagmite in a West Virginia cave has yielded the most detailed geological record to date on climate cycles in eastern North America over the past 7,000 years. The new study confirms that during periods when Earth received less solar radiation, the Atlantic Ocean cooled, icebergs increased and precipitation fell, creating a series of century-long droughts.”

Yet they spoil it all and guarantee more funding with:

““Global warming will leave things like this in the dust. The natural oscillations here are nothing like what we would expect to see with global warming,” he said.”source

Curiousgeorge
May 25, 2010 6:02 am

While this was interesting and the outcome from the skeptical and rational side was pleasing, the real problem going forward is that a loss such as this merely pushes the “True Believers” towards more radical actions. We’ve seen this before and the path is well worn.
We are not dealing with rational people in this. At some point in the not too distant future, I expect there will be those who will “martyr themselves for the cause”. We already have experience with “eco-terrorism”, and it’s a small step from where they are now to strapping on an explosive vest, or car bombing a refinery. It’s been said that: “In this game, the most committed wins”.

Tim Clark
May 25, 2010 6:17 am

Mike says: May 24, 2010 at 4:53 pm
To bad there were no scientists or economists in the debate. See: http://www.oxford-union.org/term_events/economic_growth_debate
Were the debaters allowed to use Google? Here is one survey on what scientists think:
http://stats.org/stories/2008/global_warming_survey_apr23_08.html
Scientists agree that humans cause global warming
Ninety-seven percent of the climate scientists surveyed believe “global average temperatures have increased” during the past century.
Eighty-four percent say they personally believe human-induced warming is occurring, and 74% agree that “currently available scientific evidence” substantiates its occurrence. Only 5% believe that that human activity does not contribute to greenhouse warming; the rest are unsure.

94.31428% of people who read this blog agree with all your points. We base our viewpoints on observable data, like land use change, cooking fires, pollution, temperature change since the last ice-age, deforestation, etc. We see no evidence for CO2 induced warming, and plentiful evidence that warming is good.

May 25, 2010 6:25 am

If we look back through history, it is so clear to see that Cold is our greatest problem, and that warmer times have been times of prosperity and security. Did this get overlooked? forgotten? not by me, not by Lord Lawson either. It will become urgent that we get our priorities right in the next few years.

Jimbo
May 25, 2010 6:37 am

Mike says:
May 24, 2010 at 9:43 pm
While humans experienced major climate changes in the past these occurred gradually. Furthermore, human civilization has not experienced the rate of change in climate conditions that we are very likely to experience.

Here is more abrupt stuff contrary to your statement. [Also larded towards the end with AGW’s main ingredient “might”.]

“Recent scientific evidence shows that major and widespread climate changes have occurred with startling speed. For example, roughly half the north Atlantic warming since the last ice age was achieved in only a decade, and it was accompanied by significant climatic changes across most of the globe. Similar events, including local warmings as large as 16°C, occurred repeatedly during the slide into and climb out of the last ice age. Human civilizations arose after those extreme, global ice-age climate jumps. Severe droughts and other regional climate events during the current warm period have shown similar tendencies of abrupt onset and great persistence, often with adverse effects on societies.
…..
Abrupt climate changes were especially common when the climate system was being forced to change most rapidly. Thus, greenhouse warming and other human alterations of the earth system may increase the possibility of large, abrupt, and unwelcome regional or global climatic events.”National Academies Press

So Mike, do you still stand by your statement:

While humans experienced major climate changes in the past these occurred gradually.

“Climate shifts up to half as large as the entire difference between ice age and modern conditions occurred over hemispheric or broader regions in mere years to decades. Such abrupt changes have been absent during the few key millennia when agriculture and industry have arisen. The speed, size, and extent of these abrupt changes required a reappraisal of climate stability.”PNAS

GeoFlynx
May 25, 2010 6:42 am

The questionable lord may have served as an advisor to Margaret Thatcher’s policy unit some thirty years ago, but with all his debating skills was unable to sway the Prime Minister’s view on climate change. Margaret Thatcher remains an active supporter of anthropogenic global warming causes.

Tom T
May 25, 2010 7:20 am

I is scary how easy it has become to beat these people, all they have is ad hominem attacks and “everyone just knows”. Everyone just know the earth is flat and is in the center of the universe. Everyone knows that continents are way too big to move. Everyone know a lot that is not true.

cba
May 25, 2010 7:29 am

George E. Smith,
May 24, 2010 at 5:31 pm
I can’t let you get away with that one. While reasonable for a BB, it is reasonable for even an isothermal simplistic model of the Earth. It should be obvious from venus that it is possible to have a very high surface temperature under some conditions. Earth has an albedo that rids us of around 30% of that incoming solar which is around 1360 w/m^2 average value for Earth’s orbit and blankets a spheroid even though the Earth forms an apparent disk for the solar radiation to hit – leading to an average of 1/4 of that 1360 w/m^2. That means actually, we’ve got around 238w/m^2 coming in and for balance, it means we’ve got 238 w/m^2 leaving, despite our 390 w/m^2 of surface emission. That means about 39% of the surface emission must be absorbed or blocked by the atmosphere. Actually, it’s a lot more than that as cloud tops also emit continuum radiation at colder temperatures and we can’t be losing more than that 238 w/m^2 total from Earth.
From this you should be able to infer that on Earth and on Venus, there is more than just incoming top of atmosphere and outgoing surface radiation at work in determining the numbers. Even though Venus has more TOA incoming solar, most of it doesn’t get into the atmosphere and heat the planet and even though the surface is over 400 C, most of the emissions from the surface don’t make it out as it has a balance point that is less than that of Earth’s. Of course by climate definitions, it would seem Venus doesn’t actually have a greenhouse effect going on as there’s practically no incoming solar power hitting the surface.

Bart Nielsen
May 25, 2010 7:45 am

Three cheers for Lord Monckton! Folks like him give me hope for my children’s future.

Neil McEvoy
May 25, 2010 8:00 am

“What kind of “undergrad” goes to a debate? Shouldn’t they be out drinking beer, someplace?”
Believe me, there’s plenty of beer in the Oxford Union.

Bob Kutz
May 25, 2010 8:09 am

Grumbler says:
May 25, 2010 at 4:06 am
chris1958 says:
yada yada;
In addition to the points made by Grumbler, I would add the following;
WWI was fought by Great Britain “for King and Country”. There really was no valid strategic reason for Great Britain to enter that war, other than that every one else was in the war, and if England waited too long, their strategic interests might suffer. Truly fought for no other reason than Kind and Country.
WWII was far from a war of choice by GB; if they didn’t defend themselves, they would cease to exist. Not for King and Country, but for continued right to exist as a people with self determination and a modicum of freedom. Nevil Chamberlain never understood the difference either.
So do not compare the notorious K&C debate (and it’s seeming errant nature of the discourse) to this one; Monckton had the relevant references and made logically valid points from those references. Pro-AGW pundits would do well to study his efforts. In the mean time; real science continues to be subverted by a corrupt peer review process, and stymied by real world data; more snow, recovering ice caps and snow packs, and satellite data that continues to diverge from the interpolated and manipulated surface data of GISS and NOAA. If climate science continued to be science, we would have many more such debates, not fewer.
Fascism is not science, and science is never decided by consensus, and is almost never settled at all.

Wren
May 25, 2010 8:10 am

Mark says:
May 25, 2010 at 12:28 am
I’m sorry to say that the Oxford Union debate is an irrelevancy. Nobody cares about it any more. It is less significant than the boat race.
====
Which may be why the debates get so little coverage in the main stream media.

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