Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Following up on the excellent initiative of Dr. Judith Curry (see Judith’s post and my response ), I would like to see what I can do to rebuild the justifiably lost trust in climate science. I want to bring some clarity to terms which are used all the time but which don’t seem to have an agreed upon meaning. In the process, I want to detail my own beliefs about the climate and how it works.
Figure 1. Dr Judith Curry tries to warn the greenhouse warming scientists … from Cartoons By Josh.
I don’t know about you, but I’m weary of the vague statements that characterise many of the discussions about climate change. These range from the subtle to the ridiculous. An example would be “I believe in climate change”. Given that the climate has been changing since there has been climate, what does that mean?
We also hear that there is a “consensus” … but when you ask for the actual content of the consensus, what exactly are the shared beliefs, a great silence ensues.
Often we see people being called unpleasant terms like “deniers”, with the ugly overtones of “Holocaust deniers”. I’ve been called that myself many times … but what is it that I am being accused of denying?
In an attempt to cut through the mashed potatoes and get to the meat, let me explain in question and answer format what I believe, and provide some citations for my claims. (These are only indicative citations from among many I could provide on each topic.) I will also indicate how much scientific agreement I think there is on the questions. First, some introductory questions.
Preface Question 1. Do you consider yourself an environmentalist?
I bring this up to get rid of the canard that people who don’t believe the “consensus science” on global warming are evil people who don’t care about the planet. I am a passionate environmentalist, and I have been so since 1962 when I first read Silent Spring upon its publication. I believe that we have an obligation to respect the natural ecosystems that we live among. My reasons are simple. First, we have a responsibility to be good guests and good stewards here on this amazing planet. Second, I worked extensively in my life as a commercial fisherman, and I would like for my grandchildren to have the same opportunity. The only way to do this is to monitor and be careful with our effects on the earth and the biosphere.
Preface Question 2. What single word would you choose to describe your position on climate science?
Heretic. I am neither an anthopogenic global warming (AGW) supporter nor a skeptic, I believe the entire current climate paradigm is incorrect.
Question 1. Does the earth have a preferred temperature which is actively maintained by the climate system?
To me this is the question that we should answer first. I believe that the answer is yes. Despite millennia-long volcanic eruptions, despite being struck by monstrous asteroids, despite changes in the position of the continents, as near as we can tell the average temperature of the earth has only varied by about plus or minus three percent in the last half-billion years. Over the last ten thousand years, the temperature has only varied by plus or minus one percent. Over the last 150 years, the average temperature has only varied by plus or minus 0.3%. For a system as complex and ever-changing as the climate, this is nothing short of astounding.
Before asking any other questions about the climate, we must ask why the climate has been so stable. Until we answer that question, trying to calculate the climate sensitivity is an exercise in futility.
I have explained in “The Thermostat Hypothesis” what I think is the mechanism responsible for this unexplained stability. My explanation may be wrong, but there must be some mechanism which has kept the global temperature within plus or minus 1% for ten thousand years.
I am, however, definitely in the minority with this opinion.
Question 2. Regarding human effects on climate, what is the null hypothesis?
If we are trying to see if humans have affected the climate, the null hypothesis has to be that any changes in the climate (e.g. changes in temperature, rainfall, snow extent, sea ice coverage, drought occurrence and severity) are due to natural variations.
Question 3. What observations tend to support or reject the null hypothesis?
As I show in “Congenital Climate Abnormalities”, not only are there no “fingerprints” of human effects in the records, but I find nothing that is in any way unusual or anomalous. Yes, the earth’s temperature is changing slightly … but that has been true since the earth has had a temperature.
There is no indication that the recent warming is any different from past warmings. There is more and more evidence that the Medieval Warm period was widespread, and that it was warmer than the present. The Greenland ice cores show that we are at the cold end of the Holocene (the current inter-glacial period). There have been no significant changes in rainfall, floods, sea level rise, Arctic temperatures, or other indicators.
In short, I find no climate metrics that show anything which is anomalous or outside of historical natural variations. In the absence of such evidence, we cannot reject the null hypothesis.
Question 4. Is the globe warming?
This is a trick question. It is a perfect example of a frequently asked question which is totally meaningless. It shows up all the time on public opinion polls, but it is devoid of meaning. To make it meaningful, it needs to have a time period attached to it. Here are some examples of my views on the question:
1 During the last century, the earth warmed slightly (less than 1°C).
2 The earth has generally cooled over the last 12,000 years. We are currently at the cold end of the Holocene (the period since the end of the last Ice Age. See the Greenland and Vostok ice records.
3 The earth has generally warmed since the depths of the Little Ice Age around 1650, at a rate somewhere around a half a degree Celsius per century. See Akasufo, the Central England Temperature (CET), and the Armagh records.
4 The largest warming in any instrumental record occurred around 1680 – 1730. See the CET and Armagh records.
5 The earth was either stable or cooled slightly from about 1945 to 1975.
6 The earth warmed slightly from about 1975 to 1998.
7 There has been no significant warming from 1995 to the present (Feb. 2010). See The Reference Frame, Phil Jones.
I would say that there is widespread scientific agreement on the existence of these general trends. The amount of the warming, however, is far less certain. There is current controversy about both the accuracy of the adjustments to the temperature measurements and the strength of local effects (UHI, poor station siting, warmth from irrigation, etc.). See e.g. McKitrick, Spencer, Christy and Norris, Ladochy et al.., Watts, SurfaceStations, and Jones on these questions.
Question 5. Are humans responsible for global warming?
This is another trick question that often shows up on polls. The question suffers from two problems. First is the lack of a time period discussed above. The second is the question of the amount of responsibility. Generally, the period under discussion is the post-1900 warming. So let me rephrase the question as “Are humans responsible for some part of the late 20th century warming?”
To this question I would say “Yes”. Again, there is widespread scientific agreement on that simplistic question, but as usual, the devil is in the details discussed in Question 4.
Question 6. If the answer to Question 5 is “Yes”, how are humans affecting the climate?
I think that humans affect the climate in two main ways. The first is changes in land use/land cover, or what is called “LU/LC”. I believe that when you cut down a forest, you cut down the clouds. This mechanism has been implicated in e.g. the decline in the Kilimanjaro Glacier. When you introduce widespread irrigation, the additional water vapor both warms and moderates the climate. When you pave a parking lot, local temperatures rise. See e.g. Christie and Norris, Fall et al., Kilimanjaro.
The second main way humans affect climate is through soot, which I will broadly define as black and brown carbon. Black carbon comes mostly from burning of fossil fuels, while brown carbon comes mostly from the burning of biofuels. This affects the climate in two ways. In the air, the soot absorbs incoming solar radiation, and prevents it from striking the ground. This reduces the local temperature. In addition, when soot settles out on ice and snow, it accelerates the melting of the ice and snow. This increases the local temperature by reducing the surface albedo. See e.g. Jacobson.
There is little scientific agreement on this question. A number of scientists implicate greenhouse gases as the largest contributor. Other scientists say that LU/LC is the major mover. The IPCC places values on these and other so-called “forcings”, but it admits that our scientific understanding of many of forcings is “low”.
Question 7. How much of the post 1980 temperature change is due to human activities?
Here we get into very murky waters. Is the overall balance of the warming and cooling effects of soot a warming or a cooling? I don’t know, and there is little scientific agreement on the effect of soot. In addition, as shown above there is no indication that the post 1980 temperature rise is in any way unusual. It is not statistically different from earlier periods of warming. As a result, I believe that humans have had little effect on the climate, other than locally. There is little scientific agreement on this question.
Next, some more general and theoretical questions.
Question 8. Does the evidence from the climate models show that humans are responsible for changes in the climate?
This is another trick question. Climate models do not produce evidence. Evidence is observable and measurable data about the real world. Climate model results are nothing more than the beliefs and prejudices of the programmers made tangible. While the results of climate models can be interesting and informative, they are not evidence.
Question 9. Are the models capable of projecting climate changes for 100 years?
My answer to this is a resounding “no”. The claim is often made that it is easier to project long-term climate changes than short-term weather changes. I see no reason to believe that is true. The IPCC says:
“Projecting changes in climate due to changes in greenhouse gases 50 years from now is a very different and much more easily solved problem than forecasting weather patterns just weeks from now. To put it another way, long-term variations brought about by changes in the composition of the atmosphere are much more predictable than individual weather events.” [from page 105, 2007 IPCC WG1, FAQ 1.2]
To me, that seems very doubtful. The problem with that theory is that climate models have to deal with many more variables than weather models. They have to model all of the variables that weather models contain, plus:
• Land biology
• Sea biology
• Ocean currents
• Ground freezing and thawing
• Changes in sea ice extent and area
• Aerosol changes
• Changes in solar intensity
• Average volcanic effects
• Snow accumulation, area, melt, and sublimation
• Effect of melt water pooling on ice
• Freezing and thawing of lakes
• Changes in oceanic salinity
• Changes in ice cap and glacier thickness and extent
• Changes in atmospheric trace gases
• Variations in soil moisture
• Alterations in land use/land cover
• Interactions between all of the above
• Mechanisms which tend to maximise the sum of work and entropy according to the Constructal Law.
How can a more complex situation be modeled more easily and accurately than a simpler situation? That makes no sense at all.
Next, the problem with weather models has been clearly identified as the fact that weather is chaotic. This means that no matter how well the model starts out, within a short time it will go off the rails. But the same is true for climate, it is also chaotic. Thus, there is no reason to assume that we can predict it any better than we can predict the weather. See Mandelbrot on the chaotic nature of climate.
Finally, climate models have done very poorly in the short-term. There has been no statistically significant warming in the last fifteen years. This was not predicted by a single climate model. People keep saying that the models do well in the long-term … but no one has ever identified when the changeover occurs. Are they unreliable up to twenty-five years and reliable thereafter? Fifty years?
Question 10. Are current climate theories capable of explaining the observations?
Again I say no. For example, the prevailing theory is that forcing is linearly related to climate, such that a change of X in forcing results in a change of Y in temperature. The size of this temperature change resulting from a given forcing is called the “climate sensitivity”. In 1980, based on early simple computer climate models, the temperature resulting from a change in forcing of 3.7 watts per square meter (W/m2) was estimated to result in a temperature change of between 1.5 and 4.5 degrees Celsius. See e.g. Green and Armstrong 2007.
Since 1980, there has been a huge increase in computing power. Since 1980, there has also been a huge increase in the size and complexity of computer models. Since 1980, thousands of man hours and billions of dollars have been thrown at this question. Despite these advances, the modern estimate of the climate sensitivity is almost unchanged from its 1980 value.
To me, this lack of any advance in accuracy indicates that we have an incorrect understanding of the forces governing the climate. Otherwise, our bigger, faster and better models would have narrowed the uncertainty of the climate sensitivity. But they have not.
Question 11. Is the science settled?
To this one I would answer no, no, a thousand times no. We are just a the beginning of the study of climate. New information and new theories and new forcings are put forward on a regular basis. See e.g. Lu. The data is poor, short, and full of holes. The signal is tiny and buried in a huge amount of noise. We don’t know if the earth has a thermostat. In short, the study of climate is an infant science which is still poorly understood.
Question 12. Is climate science a physical science?
Well, sort of. It is a very strange science, in that to my knowledge it is the only physical science whose object of study is not a thing, not a physical object or phenomenon, but an average. This is because climate is defined as the average of weather over a suitably long period of time (usually taken to be 30 years.) The implications of this are not widely appreciated. Inter alia, it means that statistics is one of the most important parts of climate science.
Unfortunately, a number of what I might call the “leading blights” of climate science, like Michael Mann with his HockeySchtick, have only the most rudimentary understanding of statistics. This initially got him into trouble in his foray into the area of paleoclimate statistics, trouble which he has only compounded by his later statistical errors.
Question 13. Is the current peer-review system inadequate, and if so, how can it be improved?
There are a number of problems with the current peer-review system, some of which are highlighted in the abuses of that system revealed in the CRU emails.
There are several easy changes we could make in peer review that would help things immensely:
1. Publish the names of the reviewers and their reviews along with the paper. The reviews are just as important as the paper, as they reveal the views of other scientists on the issues covered. This will stop the “stab in the back in the dark” kind of reviewing highlighted in the CRU emails.
2. Do not reveal the names of the authors to the reviewers. While some may be able to guess the names from various clues in the paper, the reviews should be “double-blind” (neither side knows the names of the others) until publication.
3. Do the reviewing online, in a password protected area. This will allow each reviewer to read, learn from, and discuss the reviews of others in real time. The process often takes way too long, and consists of monologues rather than a round-table discussion of the problems with the paper.
4. Include more reviewers. The CRU emails show that peer review is often just an “old-boys club”, with the reviewing done by two or three friends of the author. Each journal should allow a wide variety of scientists to comment on pending papers. This should include scientists from other disciplines. For example, climate science has suffered greatly from a lack of statisticians reviewing papers. As noted above, much of climate science is statistical analysis, yet on many papers either none or only the most cursory statistical review has been done. Also, engineers should be invited to review papers as well. Many theories would benefit from practical experience. Finally, “citizen scientists” such as myself should not be excluded from the process. The journals should solicit as wide a range of views on the subject as they can. This can only help the peer review process.
5. The journals must insist on the publication of data and computer codes. A verbal description of what mathematics has been done is totally inadequate. As we saw in the “HockeyStick”, what someone thinks or says they have done may not be what they actually did. Only an examination of the code can reveal that. Like my high science teacher used to say, “Show your work.”
Question 14. Regarding climate, what action (if any) should we take at this point?
I disagree with those who say that the “precautionary principle” means that we should act now. I detail my reasons for this assertion at “Climate Caution and Precaution”. At that page I also list the type of actions that we should be taking, which are “no regrets” actions. These are actions which will have beneficial results whether or not the earth is warming.
So that is where I stand on the climate questions. I think that the earth actively maintains a preferred temperature. I think that man is having an effect on local climate in various places, but that globally man’s effect is swamped by the regulating action of clouds and thunderstorms. I think that the local effect is mainly through LU/LC changes and soot. I think that the climate regulating mechanism is much stronger than either of these forcings and is stronger than CO2 forcing. I think that at this point the actions we should take are “no regrets” actions.
Does that make me a “denier”? And if so, what am I denying?
Finally, I would like to invite Dr. Judith Curry in particular, and any other interested scientists, to publicly answer these same questions here on Watts Up With That. There has been far too much misunderstanding of everyone’s position on these important issues. A clear statement of what each of us thinks about the climate and the science will go a long way towards making the discussion both more focused and more pleasant, and perhaps it will tend to heal the well-earned distrust that many have of climate science.
Oops! I meant to write: fishermen are now participating in scientific data gathering.
Shub Niggurath (12:40:58) :
Husbanding resources and “taking care” of the environment is precisely what causes global warming according to the proponents of anthropogenic warming. We are just buying into the cult if think about this non-issue in the same terms.
REPLY:
I understand exactly what you are talking about, creeping Agenda 21. The group behind CAGW for fun and profit are trying to sell their snake oil by taking reasonable concepts and twisting them into something designed to place the human race in slave shackles. Animal welfare vs Animal rights is a good clear example of the twisting of a good concept into a hammer to beat people with. Unfortunately Agenda 21 type “environmentalism” has stolen the terms used by reasonable people and turned them into something else entirely the words “Stewardship” and “Sustainable” now have very different meanings compared to 50 years ago.
Agenda 21 implementation through the President’s Council on Sustainable Development (PCSD)
“In America, the Constitution requires that consensus on public policy be hammered out in public by elected officials, not by 28 appointed individuals, carefully selected because of their known support of the principles expressed in Agenda 21. This UN description of the PCSD is found in a section of the report entitled “Integrated Decision-making,” also known as the “consensus” process. All federal agencies have now adopted this “consensus” process to by-pass Congress and other elected bodies, to build consensus on Agenda 21 activities at the local, state, and national levels. The UN report describes America’s progress in each of the activity areas in glowing terms.”
The Agenda 21 – Sustainable – Stewardship – Environment connection is a major trigger for anyone who values their freedom.
In reply to Willis Eschenbach (01:27:15)
“You might start by getting the name right.”
Apologies, Energy & Environment. The syntax may have been wrong, but you got the drift.
“I know that climate “scientists” like Phil Jones and the boys hate the journal, and malign it at every turn.”
Willis I notice you didnt disagree with my statement:
“A low tier journal & hardly considered anything serious in the climate science world”. Do you agree or disagree?
Because here is a list of journals the scientific & climate science world consider reputable in this area & Energy & Environment is not on the list.
http://sciencewatch.com/ana/fea/09novdecFea/
http://sciencewatch.com/dr/sci/10/jan31-10_1/
The reason Phil Jones & others denigrate it, is because it is used by skeptics to say they have “peer reviewed” papers. The general public dont understand the weighting of the various journals, so they assume 1 peer reviewed paper is as good as another…which its not. Energy & Developments is, as I say a low tier journal in the world of climate science & for skeptics to point to it as some sort of authority or leverage means everything in the world of pr & propaganda & nothing in the climate science world.
“The quality of the peer review I received there was more stringent and asked harder questions than the peer review I received for my “Communications Arising” that was published in Nature Magazine … go figure.”
You replied to a paper from O’Reilly et al, who subsequently posted a rebuttall to your questions. Did you have anything further to add there?
“A lot of us are doing science. Science is not what is done by a certain class of people. It is a process, not a thing. Since you seem unclear on how that works, here’s the short version of the scientific process”
It appears as though I know science is done through the peer review process & not blogs, but you fail to realise this. Sure blogs serve a purpose in discussing these things & playing out ideas, but the only purpose “doing science” on a blog serves is to undermine others work without ever having to go through the correct scientific channels.
Science might not have to be “done” by any sort of class of people, but it is assumed that to discuss it & critically assess it, you have some training in the relevant field to converse equally with others. Otherwise it is considered a waste of time.
“I post here because thousands and thousands of folks read my work here, and I get a lot of traction. I like making a difference, and I like bringing science to folks who may not be scientists but are very interested in science, and to scientists from other disciplines.”
Obviously I have different views on that statement, but due to censorship on this board am not able to express them. You have the freedom to say what you will on this blog, as it supports your ideology, I dont have that freedom.
“I don’t post on the blogs that oppose my views, like RealClimate or Tamino’s laughably named “Open Mind”, because they censor scientific opposition”
Great, so you can understand my frustration at not be able to speak freely here because the mods believe it touches a raw nerve.
“Also, few people read them compared to WUWT, and I like having my ideas get wide circulation.”
So its about ego & exposure, not so much following the correct scientific channels?
“In addition, Jim Hansen, the head of NASA GISS, called for people who hold my beliefs to be put on trial as criminals for not agreeing with him … you may call that science, but I don’t”
Must have missed that. Can you give me a link which states that exact phrase?
” I submitted my FOI request because I wanted to see if Jones’s data was any good.”
Jones had seen what happened with Hansen & Mann with FOI attempts at holding up science & delaying action & saw the writing on the wall when CA trained their sites on Phil Jones. 60 FOI requests from all over the globe in one month? When the data they were after was freely available on the net & through other sources? Cmon. Its obvious that if they went down that path of complying with your FOI spam, that you could simply keep spamming indefinately & prevent them from engaging in any scientific work for years. The ruling vindicated him & you dont have a leg to stand on except here in WUWT.
“As I said before, you are welcome to ask scientific questions or to falsify my claims or to make your own scientific claims, but to date, you are batting zero. Nada. Nil. Niente”
Great! So we are even, seeing you didnt have much luck against BOM, Phil Jones, O’Reilly et al, Hansen , Eli Rabett or Tim Lambert.
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2006/08/climate_fraudit.php
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2009/12/willis_eschenbach_caught_lying.php?utm_source=sbhomepage&utm_medium=link&utm_content=channellink
http://rabett.blogspot.com/2006/10/rtfwr-or.html
For the record Willis, what is your scientific qualifications? I’m happy to say mine are none. I’m guessing we have something in common there.
Hmmm, seems there is a very strict butt kissing rule here to be able to post legitimate questions, as another post was deleted.
Willis, looks like your a protected species here. 😉
Pragmatic, i think you some it up in one sentence:
“While the law should not be used to harass or impede “.
What is 60 FOI attempts in one month called? If Jones went down that road , him & his staff would spend the rest of their days just responding to FOI’s. While Im sure thats the outcome skeptics wanted, I doubt whether thats what the law intended. Which is why he was exonerated.
Phil M (19:45:14)
)
Dude, I was there, don’t try to lecture me on what happened. I wrote the first FOIA to CRU, which was (according to the UK police) illegally evaded. If Jones had answered my FOIA, that would have been the end of it. At that point there was one and only one FOIA to answer. So the “too many to answer” excuse you raise doesn’t apply.
But he didn’t answer. He dodged it with a variety of bogus excuses. In an effort to get to the bottom of those excuses, further FOIA requests were filed. These were also evaded. So more were filed. Why? BECAUSE HE WASN’T ANSWERING WHAT HE WAS LEGALLY REQUIRED TO ANSWER.
So yes, he got a lot of FOIA requests at the end, people were very upset with him for not following the law. Cry me a river. He could have answered mine and been done with it.
Of course, to honestly answer my request for the data, he would have had to admit that he had lost the data I requested … his unwillingness to tell the truth about his incompetence is what brought him all the FOI requests. He was the one who was impeding the law by impeding them. I thought you were following this story.
Regarding what you say is a missing post, I haven’t a clue what you are talking about. Unlike RealClimate, which censors posts so they never appear, as far as I know any post snipped here is clearly marked as such. As I see no such post from you which has been snipped, I have to assume it may not have been moderated, or has been caught by the spam filter. You immediate assumption of bad motives on our part doesn’t improve your reputation.
Regarding all the rest, you still are stuck on my qualifications and on levels and gradations of journals and of peer review and on whether I had “anything to add” to Nature Magazine (Nature obviously thought I did) and other trivial side issues. When you actually have a scientific contribution to make or raise a scientific question about what we’re discussing here, rather than a complaint, I’ll definitely answer.
In the meantime, you might consider answering the questions that are the subject of this thread, so we can see where you stand on the issues.
Or not, up to you …
For those interested in more of the chicanery, lying, cheating, and scientific malfeasance revealed in the CRU case, see “Keith Should Say”.
Re: Phil M (Apr 2 19:27),
The general public dont understand the weighting of the various journals, so they assume 1 peer reviewed paper is as good as another…which its not. Energy & Developments is, as I say a low tier journal in the world of climate science
It is true that the general public does not understand that “peer review” is a scam in climate science of an exclusive back slapping crowd that is feeding at the public trough at the tune of billions over the years. After climate gate, “peer” review has become a four letter word.
And I see that you still are going strong on context without any scientific content in your questions.
While I take issue with some of the points in the above post, I would like to focus on just two.
4 The largest warming in any instrumental record occurred around 1680 – 1730. See the CET and Armagh records.
Regional/local climate shifts are much more variable than global. This says nothing about the global record. It amounts to a spatial cherry-pick. That’s almost understandable considering the paucity of instrumental data from that period.
7 There has been no significant warming from 1995 to the present (Feb. 2010). See The Reference Frame, Phil Jones.
It’s disappointing this skewed headline is repeated here. Jones did not say there has been no warming, just that the period in question is not quite long enough for statistical significance (you’d need to add a couple more years to get statistical confidence >95%). If you add a couple of years – say from 1993- the globe is warming (statistically ‘significantly’).
A common meme is that the global climate has been flat-lining/cooling from 1998/2002. This has even less statistical significance than the longer period put to Jones.
There is a way to test these assertions using periods of statistical significance WRT climate.
I plot linear trends using UAH satellite data.
1) Plot 1979 – 1998
2) Plot 1979 – present
If the trend for the entire record is less than the trend for 1979 – 1998, there may be cause to think the globe is cooling.
The plot<a href=http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/uah/from:1978/trend/plot/uah/from:1978/plot/uah/from:1978/to:1999/plot/uah/from:1978/to:1999/trend shows that the rate of warming has actually increased.
Repeat for 2002:
Same conclusion<a href=http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/uah/from:1978/trend/plot/uah/from:1978/plot/uah/from:1978/to:2003/plot/uah/from:1978/to:2003/trend
Claims of global cooling are premised on excising most of the available data (cherry-picking), using even less data than Jones says is statistically significant. Either Jones is right about statistical significance and claims of recent global cooling are statistically invalid, or he is wrong, and warming since 1995 (and cooling from 2002) is statistically valid WRT to climate. Both cannot be true.
Dang – the hyperlinks were messed up. Here they are in full.
1998 – http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/uah/from:1978/trend/plot/uah/from:1978/plot/uah/from:1978/to:1999/plot/uah/from:1978/to:1999/trend
2002 – http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/uah/from:1978/trend/plot/uah/from:1978/plot/uah/from:1978/to:2003/plot/uah/from:1978/to:2003/trend
In case the point got lost in the format mess, the rate of global warming has actually increased since 1998/2002.
Is there any problem with my methodology?
Phil M (19:45:14) :
“What is 60 FOI attempts in one month called? ”
Evasion and deception.
Bruce Cobb (07:40:53): Cutting down the cloud forests of Monteverde, Costa Rica also affected climate in that area, reducing cloud-cover and decreasing soil moisture. The climatic differences between those areas and the surrounding still-forested ones were clear. This in turn affected both the local flora and fauna, resulting in extinction of a species of toad. This does not in any way put a value judgment on what happened. It is, however important that we know the consequences of our actions. It also helps shut the traps of the Alarmists, who latch onto anything they think will capture the publics’ imagination, such as a disappearing glacier, or species extinction to try to bolster their bogus arguments.
Bruce, your bogus argument is no different from the Alarmists’ bogus arguments. You propose a history that did not happen, and ignore the history that did, and conclude a cause-and-effect relationship where neither the cause nor the effects have validity.
That’s not how science works, unless you are talking about New Age post-normal science.
Back in the 60’s we had a cultural revolution. Some scientific disciplines came through it okay, such as microbiology, and material physics. But other disciplines became undisciplined, especially the environmental sciences. Today in climatology, ecology, and other environmental sciences we see “beliefs” supplanting the true skepticism of real science.
Read the post. Read the comments. This is a very strange thread in what is otherwise a skeptical, hard science blog. Everybody is rushing to proclaim their New Age faith and throwing skepticism to the wind. Why? It seems to me to be some sort of apologia for jumping all over Judith Curry in previous posts, and to make some sort of attempt to find “shared beliefs” with the Alarmist pseudoscientists.
But science is not about shared beliefs, or New Age mysticism, or whether you are or are not an “environmentalist”.
I took exception to Willis’ bizarre New Age statement, and I quote, “I believe that when you cut down a forest, you cut down the clouds.” But that was not the only wild-eyed statement. He also said, ” I am a passionate environmentalist, and I have been so since 1962 when I first read Silent Spring upon its publication.” Sorry, but Rachel Carson was full of manure. Nothing she wrote was valid in the true, scientific sense.
This one by Willis is really telling, “I bring this up to get rid of the canard that people who don’t believe the ‘consensus science’ on global warming are evil people who don’t care about the planet.”
Who cares? I’d rather maintain my integrity than knuckle under to slander. I feel no need to defend myself against Green Peace creeps who spew venomous lies. I am not going to genuflect at the altar of New Age pseudoscience because my ethics have been questioned. I am not a coward, nor a victim.
I’m sticking to my skeptical, scientific guns. If you want to claim some environmental hypothesis is true, whether it’s about AGW or toad extinction, you better be able to prove it, or at least provide a logical test of that hypothesis. Otherwise I don’t accept it, and I don’t feel guilty about not accepting it, either. You all should feel guilty about proclaiming untested, untestable hypotheses as truth, and about professing your “beliefs” in nutty post-normal New Age stuff on a skeptical science blog.
PQ1: No, conservationist.
PQ2: Auditor
Q1: Yes- somewhere between 255 units Kelvin and our core temperature.
Q2: I agree with Willis.
Q3: Lack of data- can not answer.
Q4: On what time scale?
Q5: Yes
Q6: Locally
Q7: Lack of data- can not answer.
Q8: Some models do, and some do not.
Q9: Yes, the models can do whatever you want them to do.
Q10: Unsure- have not read and audited all current climate theories.
Q11: Science has not, nor will it ever be settled.
Q12: It should be: chemistry, physics, fluid dynamics, SA, QA- everything fun!
Q13: Yes- but can be improved. Increasing the number of reviewers (online?) would help.
Q14: At this point, do nothing- or rather ‘do no harm’. Adapt where neccesary.
anna v (21:28:30)
“It is true that the general public does not understand that “peer review” is a scam in climate science of an exclusive back slapping crowd ”
Funny how it just became a scam, when it didnt agree with a certain politicial ideology eh? Funny how there was never such derision poured on it before until it threatened so many profits & so many votes eh? Thats really what its about.
” After climate gate, “peer” review has become a four letter word”.
To certain political ideologies & certain industries yes, I agree. The only word i can think of is “cool”.
“And I see that you still are going strong on context without any scientific content in your questions”
Like I say, this is a commentary blog & not a science blog. I am making comments. Am I bound to some special posting rules that skeptics here are not?
Besides speaking my mind?
[Phil M.
Willis is mistaken. Not all deletions or snips are visible. This is not Willis’s blog and he does not moderate here. Things happen while he is not here of which he is likely to be unaware. I have deleted posts of yours in their entirety and will continue to do so should you continue on your current course of attacking Willis’s qualifications or your mistaken belief that trying to obtain information in order to verify and replicate scientific studies is somehow a form of harassment. You are on notice. Hitting the trash link is far less work than writing these replies. Wear your censored status proudly. Go running to your friends elsewhere and complain about how you were oppressed and victimized here. ~ charles the moderator]
beng (05:48:22) :
While the comment on the facts is correct. The interpretation is off.
When forests are felled the albedo of the region increases markedly. More energy is reflected and less absorbed. This is an overall cooling effect.
Soaring summer temps will be a coincidence, not a result. However, rainfall may be affected by the transpiration of trees. With trees there is more evpaotranspiration so more water to add energy to the atmosphere. This may result in higher summer rainfall from thunderstorms. It is unlikely to affect winter rainfall.
My observation is that the Appalachians rainfall is mostly winter with some orographic effects.
Phil M,
“[In addition, Jim Hansen, the head of NASA GISS, called for people who hold my beliefs to be put on trial as criminals for not agreeing with him]
Must have missed that. Can you give me a link which states that exact phrase”
———————
Happy to oblige Phil M:
“James Hansen, one of the world’s leading climate scientists, will today call for the chief executives of large fossil fuel companies to be put on trial for high crimes against humanity and nature, accusing them of actively spreading doubt about global warming in the same way that tobacco companies blurred the links between smoking and cancer.” (The Guardian, 23rd June 2008).
Took me 27 seconds to google that.
barry (21:49:45) :
You demonstrate that either you failed to read the responses to a previous post you made or that you failed to understand them. This demonstration is in your again making the same mistaken assertion: viz.
You quote:
“7 There has been no significant warming from 1995 to the present (Feb. 2010). See The Reference Frame, Phil Jones.”
And you again reject this by mistakenly asserting:
“It’s disappointing this skewed headline is repeated here. Jones did not say there has been no warming, just that the period in question is not quite long enough for statistical significance (you’d need to add a couple more years to get statistical confidence >95%). If you add a couple of years – say from 1993- the globe is warming (statistically ’significantly’).
A common meme is that the global climate has been flat-lining/cooling from 1998/2002. This has even less statistical significance than the longer period put to Jones.”
No! You are plain wrong when you say
” the period in question is not quite long enough for statistical significance”.
The fact is that the errors of the data are such that it is not possible to assert that there has been warming or cooling in the most recent 15 year period. The magnitude of the inherent errors is the pertinent issue and not the length of the assessed period.
You assert that a different period – i.e “say from 1993” – does show warming at 95% confidence. So what? The fact is that there has been no discernible warming at 95% significance for the ast 15 years.
But, importantly, the 15 year period from 1980 to 1995 does show global warming at 95% confidence while the most recent 15 year perios does not. So, it is a certain fact that the data sets of global temperature show global warming (a) has significantly reduced or (b) has stopped or (c) has reversed to become global cooling since 1995.
Perhaps you have a crystal ball that tells you what will happen to global temperature in future years. OK, but nobody else has one, so the rest of us must wait to see if in future the global temperature will continue to show no significant change, or will rise in future, or will fall (at 95% confidence).
Richard
******
jerry (02:34:20) :
beng (05:48:22) :
While the comment on the facts is correct. The interpretation is off.
When forests are felled the albedo of the region increases markedly. More energy is reflected and less absorbed. This is an overall cooling effect.
Soaring summer temps will be a coincidence, not a result. However, rainfall may be affected by the transpiration of trees. With trees there is more evpaotranspiration so more water to add energy to the atmosphere. This may result in higher summer rainfall from thunderstorms. It is unlikely to affect winter rainfall.
******
Nope. Pielke Sr has done quite a few studies on this. The evapotranspiration effect in temperate/tropical forests dominates albedo effect. The only forests where this isn’t the case are boreal forests where snow-cover is present for much of the year, and removing the forest exposes the snow cover. Search Pielke’s site:
http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/
I agree it could have been a coincidence, but there are plenty of physical reasons to support the temp increase. I didn’t say the heat energy increased, but the temperature (humidity would decrease).
According to James Hansen, the late 1990’s thru 2000’s have been warmer than the 1930’s, yet summer temps here during this period haven’t even approached the 1930’s.
Corporatists who stand to gain from implementation of cap-and-trade and carbon trading watch from the sidelines while the skeptics and the environmentalists go at each other.
The skeptics and the environmentalists are long overdue in realizing they have to fight a common enemy (and not each other) and that they are both being set up.
“Phil M (00:26:49):”
Phil, unless you are getting paid as a “troll”, why don’t you just make a personal great leap forward by realizing that “Climate Science” is simply not doing real Science, that is, not according to the Scientific Method? And that the ipcc’s “Climate Science” is actually quite understandable simply as a gigantic Propaganda Operation, also known to some as “Post Normal Science”.
You’ll feel much bettter if you start to at least look at this AGW issue from that perspective, and you’ll start to understand the way the world works politically, which should help you along in the rest of your life.
Of course, if you are instead getting paid to put forth what are at best very far “behind the curve” statements and claims, then you’ll have the loss of income to factor in to your decision.
Phil M (19:45:14)
Willis, looks like your [sic] a protected species here.
Pragmatic, i think you some [sic] it up in one sentence:
“While the law should not be used to harass or impede “.
At the risk of grammar fascism Phil, note your misuse of the language in three successive instances. This suggests you are unfamiliar with common usage which may be why your opinions read so foreign. Had Mr. Jones met his FOI obligation and not spent hours avoiding it, chances are the paper flurry would not have followed. “You can run but you cannot hide.” At least not for long. Jones’ behavior was unlawful, thereby corrupting his reputation.
Shub Niggurath (10:55:36) :
Corporatists who stand to gain from implementation of cap-and-trade and carbon trading watch from the sidelines while the skeptics and the environmentalists go at each other.
No. The environmental alarmists who demand cap n’ trade are the main problem. Corporations are encumbered by permit requirements to emit a trace gas that amounts to 3% of .0387% of the atmosphere. The carbon trading scheme is an undisguised money grab to finance the social agenda of alarmists.
Bruce Cobb (07:40:53) :
Mike D. (13:48:37) :
eliminating forestry is not the solution.
Methinks you doth protest too much. No one wants to “eliminate forestry”. No one has even implied that. You are ranting and raging against a straw man of your own making.
REPLY:
I beg to differ. His concern is based on reality. The eco extremists have shut down much of the west coast lumbering in the USA with some very bad side effects as he stated.
“Two decades ago, more than 120 sawmills peppered California from Yreka to east of Los Angeles. But a steep drop in national forest logging has forced many to shut down. Now only 38 remain….
“….For by June, the Sierra Forest Products mill here may be out of business, stilled by years of dogged environmental opposition that have throttled the flow of national forest timber from the southern Sierra Nevada.
If that happens, something more may disappear than the last sawmill south of the Tuolumne River. With it could go the best hope of managing the forest by thinning the dense stands of smaller trees sapping the health from the Sierra Nevada and fueling massive wildfires…..”
As Willis points out BEWARE unintended consequences, although I think the destruction of jobs, lives and property is the actual objective of some of these people.
Thanks for the explanation, charles. IANAM, I am not a moderator. I thought all snips were visible. I was wrong.
I appreciate the work of the moderators. I know you always pass scientific questions through regardless. I agree with tossing personal attacks in the trash. I am aware that there’s lots of messages to deal with.
I like it that most of the time, when you do snip something, you note it in the thread, something like
[joe smith (00:27:22) snip, no personal attacks]
That way everyone can see what’s happening. My preference would be if you could do that in all cases, to avoid misunderstanding. That way we could see why you have trashed the message. It also gives us readers information about which people send messages that are all attack and no science. I have no problem with you doing it, that’s great, I’d just like you to note it in the thread.
But like I said, IANAM. My great thanks for your work in making it all work. Day after day WUWT is in the top hundred WordPress blogs. The moderators tireless efforts are part of that.
Regards,
w.
Reply: Sometimes after sorting through a comment that you considered modifying and letting through, you just throw up your hands and delete it. Other moderators had already been selectively editing Phil M’s post and yet he escalated his attacks on you. What Phil M doesn’t realize is that all commenters here enjoy protected status including him. Personal attacks of one commenter at another are 100% deletable. No flames wars allowed here. I know we have a reputation for transparency and you are correct that perhaps we should work to maintain it better, but you also have to understand that we get the [blank] has big [snip] comments as well, and those go straight to the trash without comment. Commenting is additional work. Sometimes one just doesn’t feel like it, but we probably should strive to do it anyway. Sigh, STOP BEING MY CONSCIENCE! (The conscience is what hurts when all the other parts feel so good., Steven Wright) ~ ctm
Phil M (01:31:19) :
[Phil M.
Willis is mistaken. Not all deletions or snips are visible
Like my last reply to him that was wiped also? [Reply: Maybe. I don’t remember. ~ ctm]
” I have deleted posts of yours in their entirety and will continue to do so should you continue on your current course of attacking Willis’s qualifications or your mistaken belief that trying to obtain information in order to verify and replicate scientific studies is somehow a form of harassment”
I think the content of my last deleted post was entirely relevant. The public should not be given the impression of authority, when there is none. I dont have a problem so much with Willis being an amateur scientist, on the contrary, I think its admirable. My problem lies with the label that conservative media have given him. It took a few years to finaly pin Christopher Monckton down to make him admit on camera he was not a nobel prize winner. By then, he was one of the most foremost authorities on climate change in the conservative media.
Vincent (03:33:25
“Happy to oblige Phil M:
“James Hansen, one of the world’s leading climate scientists, will today call for the chief executives of large fossil fuel companies to be put on trial for high crimes against humanity and nature, accusing them of actively spreading doubt about global warming in the same way that tobacco companies blurred the links between smoking and cancer.” (The Guardian, 23rd June 2008). Took me 27 seconds to google that”
Thanks Vincent. I also know how to use google & have that link in my collection. Can you see the difference between what you stated above & what Willis wrote below?
“In addition, Jim Hansen, the head of NASA GISS, called for people who hold my beliefs to be put on trial as criminals for not agreeing with him … you may call that science, but I don’t”
Where does hansen say “beliefs”? Is Willis a chief exec of a large fossil fuel company? At least under Hansen, they would get a trial. Under Bob Carter the IPCC would be outright killed:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2764827.htm
Now thats silencing your critics.
Pragmatic (13:45:16)
When people have lost their argument or having nothing left to say, they begin to take the moral high ground & attack grammar, punctuation & syntax. Are you also the grammar cop with people that support your view in here?
“At least not for long. Jones’ behavior was unlawful, thereby corrupting his reputation”
Sure, he didnt do the right thing by the law, but hey thats why we have panels, judges, juries etc. Because the law isnt so black & white. Sometimes there is grounds for exceptions or leniency, which was the case with Jones. It was clear that he wasnt operating within the law, but it was also clear that the FOI requests were spurious in nature. Most were knocked back & he actually approved 10.
Richard,
So, it is a certain fact that the data sets of global temperature show global warming (a) has significantly reduced or (b) has stopped or (c) has reversed to become global cooling since 1995.
You cannot attach certainty where statistical validation fails. Because the period fails the significance test (by a very small amount), all that can be said is that the warming trend of 0.12C derived from the data might be a statistical fluke. Lubos Motl provides some context.
1995 is selected purely because it fails significance tests. It’s nothing to do with whether the global is actually warming or not. It’s a trick question, which Jones answered honestly, a period carefully selected to confuse the ignorant. And it worked a treat. The correct response is that nothing definite can be said about the trend for that period – however, this immediately morphed into definitive headlines that there has been “no warming since 1995.” And you propagate this error by insisting “it is a certain fact…..” You fundamentally miscomprehend the meaning of statistical validity. And statistical validity is what the question is about, but it is worded to help sow confusion. Consider an alternative way of putting it:
“Is the period from 1995 to present statistically valid WRT to linear trends?”
“No.”
“Has there been warming in that time?”
“It appears so, but there is a small chance that the trend is a statistical fluke.”
The irony of this is that the same people who in one breath say there has been no warming since 1995, and in the next that it has been cooling from 2002, are contradicting themselves. They are, possibly unawares, relying on a statistical reason for the first claim that obviates the second. If they are conversant with the concept of statistical validity, however, then this is a glaring instance of either extreme cognitive dissonance, or simple mendacity.
However, you do help me make my second point. I trust you agree that if 1995 to present fails the significance test, 2002 to present fails even worse. I trust you will confirm that for the record, and correct people wherever it is propagated.
Finally, do you see a problem with my methodology – using as much data as possible to determine trend changes since 1998/2002?