This report is from Europe via The Times Online. Meanwhile back here in the USA, the Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX) is going through a record period of low price (ten cents a metric ton) and extended lull in trading:
“Dead” is a word that might describe trading on this exchange.
Maybe it has something to do with the members of the advisory board? On it we find Ed Begley Jr., Joe Kennedy II, and Dr. Rajenda Pachauri. With a team like that, how could it fail? The real problem with carbon credits is that there’s nothing tangible to trade. It’s all spun from thin air, literally. At least if you trade pork bellies, corn, wheat, or even orange juice, there’s something tangible that will eventually be delivered somewhere – Anthony
Europe’s emissions trading system was in uproar yesterday amid a mounting scandal over “recycled” carbon permits.
Two carbon exchanges were forced to suspend trading as panic hit investors fearful that they had bought invalid permits.
BlueNext and Nord Pool, the French and Nordic exchanges, suspended trading in certificates of emission reduction (CERs) when it emerged that some had been illegally reused.
Concern that used and worthless permits were circulating caused the spot price of the certificates to collapse, from €12 per tonne of carbon to less than €1 .
The scare erupted after Hungary said last week that it had sold 2 million CERs submitted by Hungarian companies to satisfy their carbon emission allowances under the EU’s emission trading system (ETS).
Carbon permits submitted by companies every year to the national register are usually cancelled. However, Hungary exploited a loophole that allows CERs — which are issued not by European Union governments but by the United Nations under its Clean Development Mechanism — to be traded.
Investors in the carbon market took fright as it emerged that some of the Hungarian CERs had found their way back into the market, despite having been used to meet the carbon targets of Hungarian companies.
The double counting is threatening confidence in the ETS, according to staff at one energy consultancy. Icis Heren said: “For companies obliged by law to buy carbon credits … government-led carbon credit recycling means they risk buying a worthless asset.”
The Hungarian Government said that the used CERs were sold to non-European investors, but BlueNext said that it had found some of the suspect CERs trading on its system.
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wws
March 19, 2010 5:39 am
Fred, that’s way too whiny, too amateurish. No, you need to study the Hellfire Preachers to get this art form down.
First put on your deep voice, then stretch both hands out, and sonorously intone: “WOE unto you ye evildoers! Your wickedness will be punished unto the 7th generation! Floods!!! FIres! Famines! THIS shall be the wages or your unbelief and your great wickedness! REPENT ye, REPENT! Or ye shall be struck down from above with HELLFIRE AND EVERLASTING DAMNATION!!!!”
there, that’s a quick example, see how it’s done? With some practice on a local street corner I’m sure you could get really good at it – put a hat out and some people may even toss you some quarters. See, in your post you were coming off like a peeved 12 year old, that won’t get you anywhere. Study the masters, they know what works.
Jim Stegman
March 19, 2010 5:44 am
A few folks talk about shorting carbon credits to go even lower than 10 cents. (on the Chicago Climate Exchange) I hope you are joking, please do not do this! Ten cents per ton (or $10 per contract of 100 tons) is already the logical “zero” price for this commodity. The reason is that according to the contract specification, the price may change only in increments of 5 cents (or $5 per contract). The transaction fee for a trade is $5.
So no one is going to sell their contract at $5, because they will pay a fee of $5 and get nothing in return. Why bother? So ten cents is the lowest logical price, unless the exchange changes either the contract specification or their fee structure.
Umbongo
March 19, 2010 5:53 am
As Kate ((02:48:14) writes, the Conservative section of the UK’s single political party fully subscribes to this lunacy. As has become customary, the taxpayer will be expected to underwrite not only the construction of uneconomic generators of energy (although the Conservatives throw the UK voting dogs a bone by mentioning nuclear power) but also this market in imaginary assets (or is it liabilities?). Incredibly, the Conservatives wonder why their “me-too” policies (not restricted to their religious adherence to AGW and expensive devotion to wind-power) are not translating into an election-winning lead in the polls.
Gosport Mike.
March 19, 2010 5:57 am
All this seems to have been caused by three pseudo scientists engaged in what appears to be largely a pseudo science based in a Mickey Mouse university.
Is this really the best that our wonderful Western Capitalist civilization can achieve?
May the Force be with us!
Fred (22:19:37):
I’m sure that your rant was ironic and witty. The problem with writing tongue-in-cheek mimickry of the Gore Brigade is that it’s indistinguishable from the real thing.
I was winding up a bunch of warmists over on the Deltoid site, and wrote a scenario describing the last pockets of humanity in 2110 separated by the Great Cancer Desert and the Great Capricorn Desert. Nary a person replied that maybe it’s a projection too far.
I related a BBC Radio 4 play called “Getting to Four Degrees” (not, I hasten to add, a comedy) with this scene:
Telephone voice: Hello, I’d like to make an appointment to see the Doctor please. Doctors Receptionist: I can offer you next Monday at 4am. Voice: What, four in the morning? Are you mad? Receptionist: It’s now so hot since global warming kicked in that we only open at night. Is 4am possible for you? Voice: I’m an old lady. I can’t do that. Can I have a home visit instead? Receptionist: Mrs. Jones, the Doctor can’t make house calls in the day. The roads are melting.
Not a titter. Wise nods of approval on Deltoid. These crazies are true believers.
There’s fun for all at: http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/03/the_empirical_evidence_for_man.php
STEPHEN PARKER (23:18:17) : i wonder what the third world thinks of carbon trading?
Not much — they burn carbon (in the form of charcoal) for cooking and heating, but they trade tangibles for it because they get something tangible in return.
Third World folks are poor, but they’re not *stupid*.
Mike M
March 19, 2010 6:47 am
And it’s all my fault! I accidently flooded the market when I sold 10% of the carbon credits I got for all those trees I planted in Yellowstone National Park, (ok, I had some help … my team of trained squirrels). Whew! I’m sure glad I held on to the other 90%. I’ll have to wait until the price comes back up a little or find a private buyer. Does anyone have Al Gore’s phone number?
mike sphar
March 19, 2010 6:50 am
Another way to look at it, fees have risen to 50% of the contract price. Sweet, if you are the broker. Or as Soros might say, “buy low, sell high”.
As I wrote in my Carbon Credit Article back in 2008:
Quote:
Meanwhile, back at the financial dealing desks for Carbon Credits, another commodity is about to crash. But perhaps I should not use the term ‘commodity’, for Carbon Credits (CCs) are an abstract construct that have even less contact with the real world than our over-inflated monetary systems. If there was ever an emperor with no clothes, it is a carbon trader declaring that a CC is worth £30 or £20 or £10, or any other figure that he or she may invent. CCs are a new pyramid selling scheme, that only survives as long as someone is promoting it and as long as there are more gullible customers pilling into this new market. But there are not. A small element of science is beginning to doubt the Global Warming trends, fraud has destabilised the Carbon Trading market, and a global recession will flood this already unsteady market with millions of unwanted CCs. The price of a CC is about to fall through the floor, and I expect that the whole concept of a Carbon Trading market will fall over the cliff with it.
Endquote
It was all too easy to see – even before the present financial crash.
The article is here somewhere on WUWT.
.
wws (05:39:43) : Fred, that’s way too whiny, too amateurish. No, you need to study the Hellfire Preachers to get this art form down.
His expostulation that all the animals in the rain forest would dry up and die paints too bland a picture — it would have been more effective if he’d said, “…will dry up and then explode like week-old kittens in a microwave with a tactical nuclear chili setting!”
Now *that’s* an apocalyptic vision.
Henry chance
March 19, 2010 6:52 am
Psychological deception. In American Thinker they write:
The clean-energy revolution was gaining momentum. The election in 2008 would be the critical moment. The ethics-based green revolution could be passed into law, and Obama was their guy. Roos raised much money and opened many doors for Obama that evening. In May 2009, despite initial criticism from Japan, Roos was given the plum appointment of U.S. Ambassador.
So the left wanted to push green on the back of ethics. Chicago Way ethics? Kickbacks and trading fraud? http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/03/breaking_the_obama_code_the_gr.html
If Obama can charge for healthcare 4 years before providing healthcare and tax energy at many levels, it is about bringing in money to decide who to spend it on.
Their is zero doubt in my mind, an eco extremist in his small mind thinks he operates at a superior ethical level in the name of the planet.
OceanTwo
March 19, 2010 6:55 am
I think ‘fred’ was being sarcastic. No one can be that idiotic, can they?
(oh how naive I am…)
Maybe the ocean is out there. Plotting. Waiting. Ready to rise when we decide to not whip ourselves because of our inconsideration for mother earth. Yes, it’s plotting. You can see it – every day.
It’s saying “See this? I’m coming in! I’m coming to get you and I’m not stopping this time, like I did yesterday! That House? gone! that beach? What beach? I’m moving it over ‘there’! Ha! What will you do then. eh? Don’t be building that hotel there! only *I* can tell you where dry land will be!…uh, maybe not today, you see me leave now, but I’m watching you! I’ll be back! maybe not tomorrow…well, actually, yes, tomorrow I *will* be back, but you don’t know where I’ll stop…well, actually, you will, but I’m out here, see, and there’s nothing you can do!”
>>It’s official: the greenies are a religion, and they’re selling indulgences.
Time to nail a document to Wittenberg church, I feel. Time for a Reformation – a complete political Reformation.
.
r
March 19, 2010 6:58 am
I just saw your post!
>>>>Mike Haseler (02:34:11) :
Copner: “Is this story being planted?”
I’ve just worked out a wonderful scenario. If you were part of the anti-capitalist movement, how would you seek to destroy capitalism? Obviously the direct assault was a complete disaster, but what if you were to create a market so potentially lucrative that no capitalist could resist?
What then if you were to make that market so destructive to capitalism (like the steel works that were shut down due to carbon trading) that it would literally rot the capitalist infrastructure from inside forcing billions to be traded from the rich to the poor.
And what if, all along you knew the whole thing was a scam, and that sooner or later it would all fall apart bringing the whole capitalist system crashing to the ground?<<<>>r (04:28:23) :
Some empires are brought down by attack from the outside.
The other way that empires fall is from internal corruption.
Perhaps, sometimes, it is a good thing to be on the inside and help it along.<<<
I MEANT THE COLLAPSE OF CAP AND TRADE, NOT CAPITALISM!!! YIKES!
Henry chance
March 19, 2010 7:02 am
Gosport Mike. (05:57:40) :
All this seems to have been caused by three pseudo scientists engaged in what appears to be largely a pseudo science based in a Mickey Mouse university.
Is this really the best that our wonderful Western Capitalist civilization can achieve?
May the Force be with us!
May the FARCE be with us!!!
Bill Parsons
March 19, 2010 7:38 am
Cassandra King (23:13:10) :
Fred is a prime example of the fear mongering and fraud perpetrated on humanity by those wishing to decieve others for their own gain be it political and/or fiscal.
Merriam Webster’s Dictionary
Definition of irony:
Made of or consisting of iron
…Wait a minute…
Bill Parsons
March 19, 2010 7:45 am
Commenters on Fred: Fred was being ironic.
Definition of irony: “Made or consisting of iron.”
Hope this helps.
LarryD
March 19, 2010 8:40 am
LightRain“For a $100 I’d get 1000 metric tonne exemption for my CO2 footprint. How long would that last me? A year, a decade, my life?”
Supposedly, the average carbon burden of us Westerners is 20 t/year, so the answer is: 50 years.
From what I’ve read, ’twas Enron who came up with this scheme. They expected to make a killing from being the clearing agent.
Vincent
March 19, 2010 10:51 am
” At least if you trade pork bellies, corn, wheat, or even orange juice, there’s something tangible that will eventually be delivered somewhere – Anthony.”
And I could add that even the most insolvent banks that overlent on subprime trailer parks have at least got the trailer parks to show for their stupidity. Compared to those buying emissions certificates, these banks are the very model of prudent financial management.
kwik
March 19, 2010 11:25 am
Nothing would give me more pleasure than seeing this trade going down the drain.
Nothing.
r
March 19, 2010 11:41 am
>>>>kwik (11:25:40) :
Nothing would give me more pleasure than seeing this trade going down the drain.
Nothing.<<<<
How about all the bank fraudsters going to jail?
r
What a stupid people
March 19, 2010 11:45 am
Men, you people are so sad…
“rbateman (20:18:12) :
For a market that is based on thin air (trace C02) and Piltdown-Man trickery this is hardly surprising as the end result.
Double cross: The con artists were conned.”
Yes, because money has intrinsic value…Sooooo sad…
“From what I’ve read, ’twas Enron who came up with this scheme. They expected to make a killing from being the clearing agent.”
You do know that the carbon market is in Europe right? Do you think Europe is like the US? Companies in Europe aren’t people (What country can put that in the law…that’s insane…) and they don’t own the people or the politicians…
You people are like children…can´t have an idea of your one, and because of that, you just repeat what other people say…sad…
kwik
March 19, 2010 1:08 pm
r (11:41:27) :
Well we cannot start a big discussion on that here, can we?
Because that too, is a very complicated picture, where cause and effect is difficult to identify.
Pascvaks
March 19, 2010 1:27 pm
Ref – Vincent (10:51:22) :
” At least if you trade pork bellies, corn, wheat, or even orange juice, there’s something tangible that will eventually be delivered somewhere – Anthony.”
“And I could add that even the most insolvent banks that overlent on subprime trailer parks have at least got the trailer parks to show for their stupidity. Compared to those buying emissions certificates, these banks are the very model of prudent financial management.”
__________________________
Don’t be surprised if we start getting inundated with phone sales pitches from the ‘Save The World From Change Coalition’ (aka -the ‘STWFCC’). I believe they claim to be a non-profit religious charity.
PS: Someone’s going to make a bundle off the gray haired Miami and Los Angeles retiree populations selling Billion Share Certificates with Fat Albert’s signature and a nice gold seal and pretty green ribbon on it. Wonder if the UN has already put in a copyright on something like that; sure would pay off the General Secretary’s “Entertainment Expenses” for a week or two.
Fred, that’s way too whiny, too amateurish. No, you need to study the Hellfire Preachers to get this art form down.
First put on your deep voice, then stretch both hands out, and sonorously intone: “WOE unto you ye evildoers! Your wickedness will be punished unto the 7th generation! Floods!!! FIres! Famines! THIS shall be the wages or your unbelief and your great wickedness! REPENT ye, REPENT! Or ye shall be struck down from above with HELLFIRE AND EVERLASTING DAMNATION!!!!”
there, that’s a quick example, see how it’s done? With some practice on a local street corner I’m sure you could get really good at it – put a hat out and some people may even toss you some quarters. See, in your post you were coming off like a peeved 12 year old, that won’t get you anywhere. Study the masters, they know what works.
A few folks talk about shorting carbon credits to go even lower than 10 cents. (on the Chicago Climate Exchange) I hope you are joking, please do not do this! Ten cents per ton (or $10 per contract of 100 tons) is already the logical “zero” price for this commodity. The reason is that according to the contract specification, the price may change only in increments of 5 cents (or $5 per contract). The transaction fee for a trade is $5.
So no one is going to sell their contract at $5, because they will pay a fee of $5 and get nothing in return. Why bother? So ten cents is the lowest logical price, unless the exchange changes either the contract specification or their fee structure.
As Kate ((02:48:14) writes, the Conservative section of the UK’s single political party fully subscribes to this lunacy. As has become customary, the taxpayer will be expected to underwrite not only the construction of uneconomic generators of energy (although the Conservatives throw the UK voting dogs a bone by mentioning nuclear power) but also this market in imaginary assets (or is it liabilities?). Incredibly, the Conservatives wonder why their “me-too” policies (not restricted to their religious adherence to AGW and expensive devotion to wind-power) are not translating into an election-winning lead in the polls.
All this seems to have been caused by three pseudo scientists engaged in what appears to be largely a pseudo science based in a Mickey Mouse university.
Is this really the best that our wonderful Western Capitalist civilization can achieve?
May the Force be with us!
Fred (22:19:37):
I’m sure that your rant was ironic and witty. The problem with writing tongue-in-cheek mimickry of the Gore Brigade is that it’s indistinguishable from the real thing.
I was winding up a bunch of warmists over on the Deltoid site, and wrote a scenario describing the last pockets of humanity in 2110 separated by the Great Cancer Desert and the Great Capricorn Desert. Nary a person replied that maybe it’s a projection too far.
I related a BBC Radio 4 play called “Getting to Four Degrees” (not, I hasten to add, a comedy) with this scene:
Telephone voice: Hello, I’d like to make an appointment to see the Doctor please. Doctors Receptionist: I can offer you next Monday at 4am. Voice: What, four in the morning? Are you mad? Receptionist: It’s now so hot since global warming kicked in that we only open at night. Is 4am possible for you? Voice: I’m an old lady. I can’t do that. Can I have a home visit instead? Receptionist: Mrs. Jones, the Doctor can’t make house calls in the day. The roads are melting.
Not a titter. Wise nods of approval on Deltoid. These crazies are true believers.
There’s fun for all at: http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/03/the_empirical_evidence_for_man.php
Fred (22:19:37) : great joke.
STEPHEN PARKER (23:18:17) :
i wonder what the third world thinks of carbon trading?
Not much — they burn carbon (in the form of charcoal) for cooking and heating, but they trade tangibles for it because they get something tangible in return.
Third World folks are poor, but they’re not *stupid*.
And it’s all my fault! I accidently flooded the market when I sold 10% of the carbon credits I got for all those trees I planted in Yellowstone National Park, (ok, I had some help … my team of trained squirrels). Whew! I’m sure glad I held on to the other 90%. I’ll have to wait until the price comes back up a little or find a private buyer. Does anyone have Al Gore’s phone number?
Another way to look at it, fees have risen to 50% of the contract price. Sweet, if you are the broker. Or as Soros might say, “buy low, sell high”.
As I wrote in my Carbon Credit Article back in 2008:
Quote:
Meanwhile, back at the financial dealing desks for Carbon Credits, another commodity is about to crash. But perhaps I should not use the term ‘commodity’, for Carbon Credits (CCs) are an abstract construct that have even less contact with the real world than our over-inflated monetary systems. If there was ever an emperor with no clothes, it is a carbon trader declaring that a CC is worth £30 or £20 or £10, or any other figure that he or she may invent. CCs are a new pyramid selling scheme, that only survives as long as someone is promoting it and as long as there are more gullible customers pilling into this new market. But there are not. A small element of science is beginning to doubt the Global Warming trends, fraud has destabilised the Carbon Trading market, and a global recession will flood this already unsteady market with millions of unwanted CCs. The price of a CC is about to fall through the floor, and I expect that the whole concept of a Carbon Trading market will fall over the cliff with it.
Endquote
It was all too easy to see – even before the present financial crash.
The article is here somewhere on WUWT.
.
wws (05:39:43) :
Fred, that’s way too whiny, too amateurish. No, you need to study the Hellfire Preachers to get this art form down.
His expostulation that all the animals in the rain forest would dry up and die paints too bland a picture — it would have been more effective if he’d said, “…will dry up and then explode like week-old kittens in a microwave with a tactical nuclear chili setting!”
Now *that’s* an apocalyptic vision.
Psychological deception. In American Thinker they write:
The clean-energy revolution was gaining momentum. The election in 2008 would be the critical moment. The ethics-based green revolution could be passed into law, and Obama was their guy. Roos raised much money and opened many doors for Obama that evening. In May 2009, despite initial criticism from Japan, Roos was given the plum appointment of U.S. Ambassador.
So the left wanted to push green on the back of ethics. Chicago Way ethics? Kickbacks and trading fraud?
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/03/breaking_the_obama_code_the_gr.html
If Obama can charge for healthcare 4 years before providing healthcare and tax energy at many levels, it is about bringing in money to decide who to spend it on.
Their is zero doubt in my mind, an eco extremist in his small mind thinks he operates at a superior ethical level in the name of the planet.
I think ‘fred’ was being sarcastic. No one can be that idiotic, can they?
(oh how naive I am…)
Maybe the ocean is out there. Plotting. Waiting. Ready to rise when we decide to not whip ourselves because of our inconsideration for mother earth. Yes, it’s plotting. You can see it – every day.
It’s saying “See this? I’m coming in! I’m coming to get you and I’m not stopping this time, like I did yesterday! That House? gone! that beach? What beach? I’m moving it over ‘there’! Ha! What will you do then. eh? Don’t be building that hotel there! only *I* can tell you where dry land will be!…uh, maybe not today, you see me leave now, but I’m watching you! I’ll be back! maybe not tomorrow…well, actually, yes, tomorrow I *will* be back, but you don’t know where I’ll stop…well, actually, you will, but I’m out here, see, and there’s nothing you can do!”
>>It’s official: the greenies are a religion, and they’re selling indulgences.
Time to nail a document to Wittenberg church, I feel. Time for a Reformation – a complete political Reformation.
.
I just saw your post!
>>>>Mike Haseler (02:34:11) :
Copner: “Is this story being planted?”
I’ve just worked out a wonderful scenario. If you were part of the anti-capitalist movement, how would you seek to destroy capitalism? Obviously the direct assault was a complete disaster, but what if you were to create a market so potentially lucrative that no capitalist could resist?
What then if you were to make that market so destructive to capitalism (like the steel works that were shut down due to carbon trading) that it would literally rot the capitalist infrastructure from inside forcing billions to be traded from the rich to the poor.
And what if, all along you knew the whole thing was a scam, and that sooner or later it would all fall apart bringing the whole capitalist system crashing to the ground?<<<>>r (04:28:23) :
Some empires are brought down by attack from the outside.
The other way that empires fall is from internal corruption.
Perhaps, sometimes, it is a good thing to be on the inside and help it along.<<<
I MEANT THE COLLAPSE OF CAP AND TRADE, NOT CAPITALISM!!! YIKES!
May the FARCE be with us!!!
Merriam Webster’s Dictionary
Definition of irony:
…Wait a minute…
Commenters on Fred: Fred was being ironic.
Definition of irony: “Made or consisting of iron.”
Hope this helps.
LightRain“For a $100 I’d get 1000 metric tonne exemption for my CO2 footprint. How long would that last me? A year, a decade, my life?”
Supposedly, the average carbon burden of us Westerners is 20 t/year, so the answer is: 50 years.
From what I’ve read, ’twas Enron who came up with this scheme. They expected to make a killing from being the clearing agent.
” At least if you trade pork bellies, corn, wheat, or even orange juice, there’s something tangible that will eventually be delivered somewhere – Anthony.”
And I could add that even the most insolvent banks that overlent on subprime trailer parks have at least got the trailer parks to show for their stupidity. Compared to those buying emissions certificates, these banks are the very model of prudent financial management.
Nothing would give me more pleasure than seeing this trade going down the drain.
Nothing.
>>>>kwik (11:25:40) :
Nothing would give me more pleasure than seeing this trade going down the drain.
Nothing.<<<<
How about all the bank fraudsters going to jail?
r
Men, you people are so sad…
“rbateman (20:18:12) :
For a market that is based on thin air (trace C02) and Piltdown-Man trickery this is hardly surprising as the end result.
Double cross: The con artists were conned.”
Yes, because money has intrinsic value…Sooooo sad…
“From what I’ve read, ’twas Enron who came up with this scheme. They expected to make a killing from being the clearing agent.”
You do know that the carbon market is in Europe right? Do you think Europe is like the US? Companies in Europe aren’t people (What country can put that in the law…that’s insane…) and they don’t own the people or the politicians…
You people are like children…can´t have an idea of your one, and because of that, you just repeat what other people say…sad…
r (11:41:27) :
Well we cannot start a big discussion on that here, can we?
Because that too, is a very complicated picture, where cause and effect is difficult to identify.
Ref – Vincent (10:51:22) :
” At least if you trade pork bellies, corn, wheat, or even orange juice, there’s something tangible that will eventually be delivered somewhere – Anthony.”
“And I could add that even the most insolvent banks that overlent on subprime trailer parks have at least got the trailer parks to show for their stupidity. Compared to those buying emissions certificates, these banks are the very model of prudent financial management.”
__________________________
Don’t be surprised if we start getting inundated with phone sales pitches from the ‘Save The World From Change Coalition’ (aka -the ‘STWFCC’). I believe they claim to be a non-profit religious charity.
PS: Someone’s going to make a bundle off the gray haired Miami and Los Angeles retiree populations selling Billion Share Certificates with Fat Albert’s signature and a nice gold seal and pretty green ribbon on it. Wonder if the UN has already put in a copyright on something like that; sure would pay off the General Secretary’s “Entertainment Expenses” for a week or two.