Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Figure 1. The Experimental Setup
I keep reading statements in various places about how it is indisputable “simple physics” that if we increase the amount of atmospheric CO2, it will inevitably warm the planet. Here’s a typical example:
In the hyperbolic language that has infested the debate, researchers have been accused of everything from ditching the scientific method to participating in a vast conspiracy. But the basic concepts of the greenhouse effect is a matter of simple physics and chemistry, and have been part of the scientific dialog for roughly a century.
Here’s another:
The important thing is that we know how greenhouse gases affect climate. It has even been predicted hundred years ago by Arrhenius. It is simple physics.
Unfortunately, while the physics is simple, the climate is far from simple. It is one of the more complex systems that we have ever studied. The climate is a tera-watt scale planetary sized heat engine. It is driven by both terrestrial and extra-terrestrial forcings, a number of which are unknown, and many of which are poorly understood and/or difficult to measure. It is inherently chaotic and turbulent, two conditions for which we have few mathematical tools.
The climate is composed of six major subsystems — atmosphere, ocean, cryosphere, lithosphere, biosphere, and electrosphere. All of these subsystems are imperfectly understood. Each of these subsystems has its own known and unknown internal and external forcings, feedbacks, resonances, and cyclical variations. In addition, each subsystem affects all of the other subsystems through a variety of known and unknown forcings and feedbacks.
Then there is the problem of scale. Climate has crucially important processes at physical scales from the molecular to the planetary and at temporal scales from milliseconds to millennia.
As a result of this almost unimaginable complexity, simple physics is simply inadequate to predict the effect of a change in one of the hundreds and hundreds of things that affect the climate. I will give two examples of why “simple physics” doesn’t work with the climate — a river, and a block of steel. I’ll start with a thought experiment with the block of steel.
Suppose that I want to find out about how temperature affects solids. I take a 75 kg block of steel, and I put the bottom end of it in a bucket of hot water. I duct tape a thermometer to the top end in the best experimental fashion, and I start recording how the temperature changes with time. At first, nothing happens. So I wait. And soon, the temperature of the other end of the block of steel starts rising. Hey, simple physics, right?
To verify my results, I try the experiment with a block of copper. I get the same result, the end of the block that’s not in the hot water soon begins to warm up. I try it with a block of glass, same thing. My tentative conclusion is that simple physics says that if you heat one end of a solid, the other end will eventually heat up as well.
So I look around for a final test. Not seeing anything obvious, I have a flash of insight. I weigh about 75 kg. So I sit with my feet in the bucket of hot water, put the thermometer in my mouth, and wait for my head to heat up. This experimental setup is shown in Figure 1 above.
After all, simple physics is my guideline, I know what’s going to happen, I just have to wait.
And wait … and wait …
As our thought experiment shows, simple physics may simply not work when applied to a complex system. The problem is that there are feedback mechanisms that negate the effect of the hot water on my cold toes. My body has a preferential temperature which is not set by the external forcings.
For a more nuanced view of what is happening, let’s consider the second example, a river. Again, a thought experiment.
I take a sheet of plywood, and I cover it with some earth. I tilt it up so it slopes from one edge to the other. For our thought experiment, we’ll imagine that this is a hill that goes down to the ocean.
I place a steel ball at the top edge of the earth-covered plywood, and I watch what happens. It rolls, as simple physics predicts, straight down to the lower edge. I try it with a wooden ball, and get the same result. I figure maybe it’s because of the shape of the object.
So I make a small wooden sled, and put it on the plywood. Again, it slides straight down to the ocean. I try it with a miniature steel shed, same result. It goes directly downhill to the ocean as well. Simple physics, understood by Isaac Newton.
As a final test, I take a hose and I start running some water down from the top edge of my hill to make a model river. To my surprise, although the model river starts straight down the hill, it soon starts to wander. Before long, it has formed a meandering stream, which changes its course with time. Sections of the river form long loops, the channel changes, loops are cut off, new channels form, and after while we get something like this:
Figure 2. Meanders, oxbow bends, and oxbow lakes in a river system. Note the old channels where the river used to run.
The most amazing part is that the process never stops. No matter how long we run the river experiment, the channel continues to change. What’s going on here?
Well, the first thing that we can conclude is that, just as in our experiment with the steel block, simple physics simply doesn’t work in this situation. Simple physics says that things roll straight downhill, and clearly, that ain’t happening here … it is obvious we need better tools to analyze the flow of the river.
Are there mathematical tools that we can use to understand this system? Yes, but they are not simple. The breakthrough came in the 1990’s, with the discovery by Adrian Bejan of the Constructal Law. The Constructal Law applies to all flow systems which are far from equilibrium, like a river or the climate.
It turns out that these types of flow systems are not passive systems which can take up any configuration. Instead, they actively strive to maximize some aspect of the system. For the river, as for the climate, the system strives to maximize the sum of the energy moved and the energy lost through turbulence. See the discussion of these principles here, here, here, and here. There is also a website devoted to various applications of the Constructal Law here.
There are several conclusions that we can make from the application of the Constructal Law to flow systems:
1. Any flow system far from equilibrium is not free to take up any form as the climate models assume. Instead, it has a preferential state which it works actively to approach.
2. This preferential state, however, is never achieved. Instead, the system constantly overshoots and undershoots that state, and does not settle down to one final form. The system never stops modifying its internal aspects to move towards the preferential state.
3. The results of changes in such a flow system are often counterintuitive. For example, suppose we want to shorten the river. Simple physics says it should be easy. So we cut through an oxbow bend, and it makes the river shorter … but only for a little while. Soon the river readjusts, and some other part of the river becomes longer. The length of the river is actively maintained by the system. Contrary to our simplistic assumptions, the length of the river is not changed by our actions.
So that’s the problem with “simple physics” and the climate. For example, simple physics predicts a simple linear relationship between the climate forcings and the temperature. People seriously believe that a change of X in the forcings will lead inevitably to a chance of A * X in the temperature. This is called the “climate sensitivity”, and is a fundamental assumption in the climate models. The IPCC says that if CO2 doubles, we will get a rise of around 3C in the global temperature. However, there is absolutely no evidence to support that claim, only computer models. But the models assume this relationship, so they cannot be used to establish the relationship.
However, as rivers clearly show, there is no such simple relationship in a flow system far from equilibrium. We can’t cut through an oxbow to shorten the river, it just lengthens elsewhere to maintain the same total length. Instead of being affected by a change in the forcings, the system sets its own preferential operating conditions (e.g. length, temperature, etc.) based on the natural constraints and flow possibilities and other parameters of the system.
Final conclusion? Because climate is a flow system far from equilibrium, it is ruled by the Constructal Law. As a result, there is no physics-based reason to assume that increasing CO2 will make a large difference to the global temperature, and the Constructal Law gives us reason to think that it may make no difference at all. In any case, regardless of Arrhenius, the “simple physics” relationship between CO2 and global temperature is something that we cannot simply assume to be true.
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An excellent article Mr Eschenbach, one that even I could easily grasp
Oooh .. a wee bit edgy today are we TB? Good heavens.
Time for some popcorn and sit back and watch the show. ☺
This is gonna be good.
Par5: “Arrhenius also concluded that the sun was made of coal, and that the earth was less than ten thousand years old.”
Can Par5 or anyone else provide a reference for this? Does anyone here doubt or dispute the claim?
ThinkingBeing (10:02:11) :
So you’re saying these “models” of yours can forecast anything when they can’t even backcast anything?
Amazing. Now THAT’s magic!
Whatever happened to Gaia?
Can it be she’s not?
Or did she leave the kitchen
when it got too hot?
I never believed in Gaia
but she kept the pagans quiet.
Now, a little heat or cold
and they start to riot.
The device you seek to accomplish this is an electrometer; a device capable of measuring a static (non-changing) electric field at a distance.
An exposition of the method and some studies:
Measurement of Atmospheric Electricity During
Different Meteorological Conditions
Build one: RIDICULOUSLY SENSITIVE ELECTRIC CHARGE DETECTOR
.
.
leftymartin (22:55:00): at the state of Maximum Entropy Production
Exactly! The Principles of Maximum Entropy Production is equivalent to the Principle of Minimum Energy Dissipation¹ and is frequently seen in physics, chemistry and biology:
http://www.rsbs.anu.edu.au/ResearchGroups/EBG/profiles/Roderick_Dewar/Martyushev%20and%20Seleznev%202006%20Phys%20Rep.pdf
¹1968 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, Lars Onsager (1931) http://www.csee.wvu.edu/~xinl/library/papers/physics/Onsager1931.pdf
“”” Phil. (07:21:49) :
[Reply: You are welcome to submit your own article explaining how well computer climate models work. ~dbstealey, mod.]
My friend’s computer model was used to design all the wings of Boeing aircraft since the 767 in the 70’s, which is as relevant as Willis’s analogies! Water flowing downhill tries to get there as fast as possible which would mean following a brachistochrone and this is supposed to tell us something about the response of the climate to CO2? (By the way Willis a response of 3º to a doubling of [CO2] is not a “simple linear relationship”, it’s logarithmic). “””
Well it seems to me that geologic history suggests that Total range of CO2 concentration in earth’s atmosphere is about 26:1 from about 7000 ppm down to about 270, which is less than five doublings; so if the temperature goes as the logarithm of the CO2, then that would be less than a 15 deg C change in temperature over all geological time.
I’m not aware of any change in earth’s mean temperature since the Cambrian
amounting to anything like 15 degrees C; nor of any parallel plots showing them tracking logarithmically; nor of any physical cause and effect process, that would relate them logarithmically. The records of human history would not seem to cover even a single octave of such a logarithmic relationship; not even a half of an octave.
On the other hand for the very small changes in CO2 that are closely monitored these days, at places like Mauna Loa, the logarithm of the CO2 change would seem to be very little different from unity; and given that Ln(1+x) is approximately x, that would seem to make the relationship at least as close to linear, as it is to logarithmic.
May I suggest Phil, that the presumed logarithmic connection between CO2 abundance in the atmosphere, and global mean temperature, is more a figment of the presumption of the reality of the concept of “climate sensitivity”, than it is of any operating physics.
The relationship is evidently logarithmic, because the inventor of “Climate sensitivity” (izzat Steven Schneider of Stanford?) said so; and given that the “radiative forcing” (hate that word) due to CO2 trapping of surface emitted LWIR radiation, must vary by over an order of magnitude simply due to the temperature change from place to place on the earth’s surface; it would seem to me that the “Climate Sensitivity” is hardly deserving of the same Fundamental Physical Constant status, of say the Fine Structure Constant.
IF it weren’t for the repeated deposition/movement of sediments, the blocking of normal ‘flow’ by ice jams leading to the opening of new ‘bends’ in the river … a cinch!
.
.
That sulphur smell!
Maxwells Demon flitting about?
I would say that Bastardi is a more fun read than Masters over at Weather Underground who seems to bang the AGW drum at every opportunity.
Phil. (07:21:49) So what if you can model the air flow past a wing on a Boeing 767. Still doesn’t apply to a computer model for the climate system does it? And Willis’ point on the downhill flow of the stream is that it’s ever changing and difficult to study with a simple “model”.
Roger Sowell: You didn’t dispute anything I said. You simply attempted to change narrow the definition of flow. But even then you’re wrong. All molecules “move” when heat is transferred by any method. Does an entire block of metal move? No, but the surface molecules move a bit and so do each successive layer of molecules as the heat is transferred through it. And regarding the Earth. The oceans move, the air moves, the ground moves, the earth rotates, revolves, and wobbles but that isn’t flow to you because the earth itself doesn’t really change size and shape like a liquid? Then you further attempt to say that because plate tectonics have a long time scale that they don’t count? Seriously? That’s your defense?
ThinkingBeing (10:02:11) :
The analogies aren’t perfect, but they are sufficient to show that shining some lights on two bottles, one containing air, and another mostly CO2 doesn’t prove global warming is caused by CO2. The “deniers” are just trying to get the “zealots” off their soap boxes and back to real scientific discussion.
(21:25:35)
REPLY: “weather” is known to be chaotic. Climate is a long term collection of weather events, so it stands to reason that it is also chaotic, but on a longer, slower time scale. – Anthony
Or perhaps:
Take weather as a white noise input to an amplitude limiter , followed by a band-pass filter (the global atmosphere), low-pass filter (oceans), these two in parallel of course, fed into an op-amp with a variable long delay feedback loop (global ocean conveyor belt as in here:
http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/Frontiers/2003/images/d8ee2.jpg)
add one year seasons’ sine-wave modulator, inject a bit of DC (90 minus latitude), and hay presto you may get something that looks like climate, whatever that might be.
Kacser and Burns, in 1973, examined the control of fluxes in their formalized Metabolic control Analysis. A similar mathematical approach can be applied to heat fluxes in the oceans and atmosphere. Before this time many biochemists had believed that they could take rate constants, measured at or near equilibrium, and apply them to systems that had thermodynamics of an irreversible nature. Needless to say, no kineticist would every attempt to model an irreversible thermodynamic pathways using equilibrium thermodynamic models, unlike Climate Scientists, we have learned to describe quasi-steady states as quasi-steady states and not as stanp-shots of an equilibrium. The classical energy flux diagrams used by the Climate people:-
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Greenhouse_Effect.svg/750px-Greenhouse_Effect.svg.png
are similar to the late 60’s and early 70’s descriptions of metabolic fluxes, with ‘KEY’ rate liming steps and saturating concentrations of substrates. That world has gone, and was gone when undergraduates were taught in the early 80’s.
ThinkingBeing (10:02:11) :
Ok, if what you just said is correct, why hasn’t water vapor alone already done the same thing? Why does CO2 do what water vapor couldn’t do? If water vapor alone couldn’t do what CO2 does, why would water vapor help CO2?
Oversimplifying the subject makes it easier to spoon-feed to the MSM and schoolchildren: “CO2 is a greenhouse gas. Greenhouse gases trap heat. The more CO2 there is in the atmosphere, the hotter the planet will get.” There you have it. The entire planet’s climate system neatly summed up in three sentences, and ready for an elementary school lesson plan on global warming. No need to muddle it up with variables like ocean currents, solar cycles, water vapor, and other things that are hard to explain. It’s a simple system, explained by elementary physics, and omnipotent Man controls the whole thing. And the whole theory is backed up by something as infallible as computer software, so there’s no sense questioning it.
Meanwhile, back at the JAXA ice coverage plot, we finally made it to 12E6 squ km about on Christmas Day I think; and right now it looks like we are ahead of both 2008 and 2007, so 14E6 by spring equinox seems likely. We might even have some multiyear ice left too.
Galen Haugh (09:40:25) :
“I’ve said knowledge is like a circle: As the diameter of your knowledge increases, the circumference of your ignorance enlarges that much more.”
I like that. I’ve always said that the more you learn, the more you realise how little you know.
But then again I’m not as smart as your average climate scientist – they had the science settled long ago.
I find it hard to believe that people don’t see something is happening.
Sorry! Link got corrupted by the bracket at the end. Here it is again:
http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/Frontiers/2003/d8ee2.html
George Smith,
You did a nice pithy summary of CO2 as a climate forcing agent; however, you did leave out one thing. That one of the signatures of CO2 induced AGW is a mid-tropespheric tropical hot spot. The lack of one even bothers Gavin Schmidt.
****
ThinkingBeing (10:02:11) :
****
I get the “being” part. But I’m not seeing much thinking.
Quote from Willis, the author:
“I take a sheet of plywood, and I cover it with some earth. I tilt it up so it slopes from one edge to the other. For our thought experiment, we’ll imagine that this is a hill that goes down to the ocean.
I place a steel ball at the top edge of the earth-covered plywood, and I watch what happens. It rolls, as simple physics predicts, straight down to the lower edge. I try it with a wooden ball, and get the same result. I figure maybe it’s because of the shape of the object.
So I make a small wooden sled, and put it on the plywood. Again, it slides straight down to the ocean. I try it with a miniature steel shed, same result. It goes directly downhill to the ocean as well. Simple physics, understood by Isaac Newton.
As a final test, I take a hose and I start running some water down from the top edge of my hill to make a model river. To my surprise, although the model river starts straight down the hill, it soon starts to wander. Before long, it has formed a meandering stream, which changes its course with time.”
End of quote.
Would that it were so.
Is it so? I doubt it.
The behaviour of balls, sledges, etc. on a rough but displaceable terrain is erractic, as is the initial behaviour of a stream of water on such a terrain. My guess is that in reality it will only be the stream of water that finds the shortest path from top to bottom, and it does so once it has displaced the soil. The meandering effect requires not water but an unstable suspension of material in water. The meandering effect would occur if one was to flow such a suspension over a clean board providing the flow was slow enough, but a flow of water alone would tend to clean a path with the steepest gradient.
Perhaps it would be better, and clearer, to leave the soil off the board to begin with, and compare balls, etc., with the flow of a suspension of silt in water. Then the balls would behaviour in a simple fashion and the suspension in the desired complex fashion.
Please take this in the friendly way it is intended.
Alex
ThinkingBeing (10:02:11) :
How do you know that climate models are useful when they only reproduce the observations they are based on? Most commercial simulators need to show that they can do accurate predictions before they are taken seriously. For example nuclear engineering simulators cannot be used before they demonstrate over and over again that they are able to reproduce unknown or future observations.