There’s plenty of stories about how Arctic sea ice is now “rotten”. There’s darn few that talk about yearly comparisons or what other scientific outlets are saying about the claim.
As many WUWT readers know, 2007 was the minimum year of summer extent in sea ice, a year that is routinely held up as a cause for alarm. Another cause for alarm has been the “decline of multi-year sea ice”. Most recently we’ve gotten claims of “rotten ice” in the news media. That “rotten” ice is “duping the satellites” they say. This all from one fellow, Dr. David Barber on a ship that took a short expedition in the Arctic and observed what he called “rotten ice”. Here’s Dr. Barber using the poster child for sea ice loss in a presentation.
Seems that his “rotten” message resonated, even the media in Alaska (who can observe sea ice on their own) are saying it: New study: Arctic ice is rotten (Anchorage Daily News)
Over at the Greenbang Blog, they say that: ‘Rotten’ sea ice creates false impression of Arctic recovery
They cite:
Satellite data in 2008 and 2009 appeared to indicate that Arctic sea ice cover had started to grow again after reaching a record low, leading some to claim that global warming was reversing. However, University of Manitoba researcher David Barber found that wasn’t the case after he viewed the ice firsthand this September from an ice breaker travelling through the southern Beaufort Sea.
What the satellites had identified as thick, multiyear ice, it turned out, was in fact thin, “rotten” ice, Barber and his colleagues discovered.
This apparently was the conclusion from watching Dr. Barber’s YouTube video:
You can read Barber’s study here (Word DOC file)
So if the satellites are “duped” into seeing more ice than actually exists, then 2007 ice must have been really, really, rotten:
Compare for yourself, here.
Looks like it has firmed up since then. So no matter how you spin it, there has indeed been improvement in sea ice in 2007. Going from “really, really rotten” in 2007 to simply “rotten” Arctic sea ice in 2009 is definitely an improvement.
One other note, if this “rotten ice” problem and satellite duping proposed by Dr. Barber is in fact real, I’d fully expect that the National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC) would make some sort of announcement or post a caveat about it on the “Arctic Sea Ice News and analysis” web page where they present the satellite data. I couldn’t find anything on that page about “rotten ice” or satellite data being inaccurate.
Looking further, I used a Google search for “rotten” within NSIDC’s web site (available from their search tool in the upper right of their web page) reveals no recent documents or web pages using that word. Odd.
OK maybe Cryosphere Today? Nope nothing there either.
JAXA‘s sea ice page? Their News page? Not a peep.
Nansen’s Arctic ROOS sea ice page? Or their news page? All quiet on the Arctic front.
Maybe the Danish Meteorological Institute (in Copenhagen no less) sea ice page? Surely, something must be “rotten” in Denmark, no? Alas, they don’t mention it either.
Gosh, the Arctic ice is rotten, the satellites are duped, and none of the major scientific organzations that track sea ice have anything to say about it?
It seems Dr. Barber’s conclusions are being left out in the cold by his peers.
If there was much rotten ice, this summer’s Northwest Passage ships should have gotten across in a few days without trouble. Nope, they had trouble. Also the Catlin wanderers should have reported a lot of crumbling ice (not wet feet because they traveled during the end of winter), but they didn’t.
Ice rotting? They make it sound like some new bacillus or fungus has been spawned.
Okay, ‘fess up. Which one of you has been messing around in the lab? 😮
http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110002693763/en
I have a couple business ideas for young people with sufficient go-ahead sprit.
1. Make a most wanted ClimateGate deck of cards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most-wanted_Iraqi_playing_cards
2. Setup a server that downloads and presents raw and processed ARGO data real-time.
http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/argo/latest_data.html#compressed
Should be sufficient of $ here I guess…
[self_snip]
Hummhh, whatsrottenwiththat, rotten science or rotten scientists.
[/self_snip]
@operator, if my expression is too strong, do as the tags advise.
Jeez, somehow this times I’m remebering the 2nd Doors LP, and it’s lead
song, ‘Strange People’, ‘People are strange’.
Really, you can’t made this up. Simply too strange.
If I follow the scenario, as it developed over the last fifteen years,
next possibly will be, NxOx and SxOx and for shure SxHxOx will be
the next targets. Train not to fart, or you will be catalysatored, by law.
Which possibly means, you have a pipe, connected to your poor backa$$,
equipped with an remotely readen fartometer (measure is up to you,
fart/mile, fart/hour, fart/x/smell).
Somehow, now I understand the phrase ‘ You have to become really mad,
to still stay sane’. Never, never liked that one. But hey, I still can learn.
KlausB
Purakanui (11:28:11) :
… Al Gore has just said that there will be no Arctic ice in five years
It is painful to know how many there are of us deniers willing to take him up on that bet.
You see they will claim that it’s all rotten ice and there is no actual “real ice” in the arctic anymore, so you will lose in an international court where the UN is in charge of the proceedings.
From Dr. Barber’s Report –
“In September 2009 we observed a much different sea icescape in the Southern Beaufort Sea than anticipated, based on remotely sensed products. Radarsat derived ice charts predicted 7 to 9 tenths multi-year (MY) or thick first-year (FY) sea ice throughout most of the Southern Beaufort Sea in the deep water of the Canada Basin.”
So, at the end of the summer melt (September) in the Southern Beaufort Sea (home of the Beaufort Gyre, which breaks up pack ice), Dr. Barber did not find Multi-year ice or thick First year ice. I wonder why? Maybe because he went to an area that would not have much multi-year ice at the time of the year before new ice really begins to form.
But they did find first year ice that was starting to form around fragments of multi-year ice, which is about what I would expect to find in the South Beaufort Sea around September.
Roy Spencer (13:02:09) :
“never” observing that kind of ice before is either complete BS, or he is very susceptible to self-delusion.”
Deluded to the extent that he can’t recall ever seeing rotten ice indicates something closer to a psychosis. He may be “seeing” all kinds of things.
Just look at how childish Omaba’s Youth are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDubnFU3BXE , as reply to Lord Monckton’s comments yesterday!
Richard
There was a very similar Arctic report for the period around 1820.
Tonyb
Re chainpin (13:07:15) :
Glaciers melted faster in 1940’s says new study:
Thanks for the link chainpin. I am in communication with Swiss center for glaciers, asking now for temperature and precipitation data over the 20th century. I have made a chart of ratio between advancing/retreating glaciers in Switzerland versus Atlantic multidecadal oscillation:
http://www.letka13.sk/~jurinko/swiss_glaciers_vs_AMO.gif
Conclusions from the study a re a bit funny. First, they admit that glaciers were melting faster in 40ties than today, but they must add that “the pace at which the Alpine glaciers are currently melting is unusual, plus the fact that this sharp decline has been unabated for 25 years now”. But the even sharper decline in 40ties was longer – from 30ties to 60ties – and it has not been not years of decline now, but 22. So, nothing unusual.
Imagine the panic, when glaciers start inevitably to grow in near future. I will update the chart after New Year, when the 2009 data will be available.
Polar Scientists are sounding the alarm
So, we have the “dernier cri” on rotten ice from bush pilots and Eskimo nomenclature. If any of the pilots were old pilots and the Eskimo word is well documented, what else do we need to know?
The scientific gentleman saw rotten ice. He just “forgot” to mention the dates.
What a load! Did he tour the entire Arctic circle? How many measurements did he make?
Of course, when ice extant is low, that’s the sign of the ‘pocolype. When it comes back, ice thickness is important. Doesn’t the MSM notice that the goalposts keep moving around? Don’t they compare past statements with new statements?
A bit off topic but what caused this, would it be climate change, no wonder the warmers don`t like the company of archaeologists.
In 2000, a major archaeological discovery made by a team led by paleontologist Paul Sereno opened a window onto the “Green Sahara,” a moment of time that spanned 10,000 to 5,000 years ago.
Called Gobero after the local Tuareg name for the area, the discovery revealed a suite of closely-spaced archaeological sites preserved in two kinds of settings—paleodune and paleolake deposits. These sites document a 5,000-year-long drama of changing climate and changing cultures.
http://www.projectexploration.org/greensahara/AboutGobero_GoberoStory.aspx
http://climate4you.com/ClimateAndLandscapes.htm
This is science not the rubbish we are being spoon fed.
Another norwegian boffin professor here:
“Thinks that land and sea will rise about as much”
I think that his predictions are as accurate as anyone elses…
helvio (15:01:33) :
Just look at how childish Omaba’s Youth are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDubnFU3BXE , as reply to Lord Monckton’s comments yesterday!”
Excellent. Monckton says the “oceans are sitting on something called rock”, perhaps playing to the level of the crowd, and one of the kids rolls her eyes and whispers “bull****” at the camera. Maybe she was taken out of context, or just got took for a ride. Remember, these kids are the scientists of tomorrow.
Good Old Veggie Pachauri has said that there is NO definitive proof that man-made Carbon Dioxide emissions are causing global warming/climate change, in a CNN inteerview, so why do the wackos persist in their fraudulent efforts to spread the wealth of the poor to the rich through taxation?.
COP 15 is just a stop along the way to serfdom based on – as has been said – rotten science.
The AGW saga in polluted with Mann-made pseudo-science.
I have the same problem. Whenever I’m looking down at the ground the bottom lens of my glasses makes everything “mushy”. It’s terrible!
To paraphrase Frank Zappa:
The ice isn’t dead. It just smells funny.
That newspaper report AdderW (15:08:30) refers to is a real load of b-t:
“Apparently, the process in recent years has been speeded up dramatically. Only the emission of ice from the famous glacier in Ilulissat in Greenland drain six to eight percent of the ice sheet annually, says Associate Professor Jorgen Peter Steffensen of the Niels Bohr Institute.”
(and yes, I have checked the danish version, the translation is correct)
Now if that was true, the sea level would be rising about 2 feet per year, from that glacier alone!
Actually what the Illulissat glacier does is to drain the ice from about 6 to 8 percent of the total area of the ice-sheet, as it has been doing ever since the last ice-age. Either the journalist or the professor must be a complete idiot.
I remember something of the opposite earlier this year when one of the northwest passage boats had satellite data showing clear sailing, then proceeding to sail into ice they had to be pulled out of by icebreaker.
a slightly better translation of the norwegian paper than the Google one:
For some reason JAXA has taken down the arctic ice extent data for the 11th, 12th, and 13th. I logged in to see the change from yesterday, and discovered that three days had gone missing, and there is no update showing today’s data. Odd. I’ve followed the JAXA site for a couple of years and can’t recall them ever taking down data before.
Now guys if you really want to have a chuckle, read this:
Clayton H. Riddell
Faculty of Environment, Earth, and Resources
At University of Manitoba…
So who is Clayton Riddell?
Check Wikipedia!
Clayton (Clay) H. Riddell is the founder, president and CEO of Calgary, Alberta based Paramount Resources. He graduated with a Bachelor of Science (Honours) in Geology from the University of Manitoba. He also is part owner of the Calgary Flames and high-end Calgary restaurant Catch.
According to the Canadian Business Magazine’s 2006 Rich 100 list, Clay Riddell is the 13th wealthiest person in Canada.
Riddell was a president of the Canadian Society of Petroleum Geologists and Chair of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers.
The Clayton H. Riddell Faculty of Environment, Earth, and Resources at the University of Manitoba is named in Riddell’s honour. It was the university that suggested the name for the new faculty, not Riddell. Riddell donated $10-million in order to create an endowment fund for the faculty. The faculty combines the Department of Environment and Geography, the Department of Geological Sciences and the Natural Resources Institute.
In 2008, he was made an Officer of the Order of Canada.[1]
Also owns Paramount Energy Trust, Trilogy Energy Trust, and MGM energy.
So BIG OIL Money is OK: As for Calgary oilmen’s retired or not, it seems the guilt ridden crowd among the richest of them is already buying indulgences either by supporting the prima Donna Dr Keith here at U of C and the “journalists” and other “environmentalists” that discuss their treks in the arctic, or by inviting the very IPCC scientist who cannot explain the lack of warming -courtesy of CLIMATEGATE emails- or by having environmental campus buildings named after them: Big Oil is not that bad for some of the most rabid AGW researchers in the country… perhaps they should also mention this indirect funding in their peer reviewed papers!
Richard111 (14:37:13) : The BBC weather report tonight is for rotten snow this Wednesday and maybe Friday.
The weather man seemed to cringe when he mentioned there might be snow !?!
Wouldnt you if had always argued with your elder brother that santa claus existed and then had to narrate to him how you caught your dad laying out the presents under the tree.