Hadley CRU isn’t the only government agency that deletes web content related to climate. NOAA/NWS Southern Region Headquarters has gotten into the act. An interesting thing happened today. NOAA deleted an educational web page about an experiment you can do with CO2.
Ordinarily such a thing would go unnoticed, especially since it doesn’t impact anything particularly important like policy, or climate data. It’s just an experiment for kids in the classroom.
Fortunately, I still had the web page open in my browser. I had been looking at it yesterday, and I had been thinking I might try the experiment myself with a datalogging thermometer, just for fun.
Here’s the web page as it was open in my browser:
And here is what the same URL looks like now:
You can try it out for yourself:
http://www.srh.noaa.gov/srh/jetstream/atmos/ll_gas.htm
What could cause NOAA to pull a web page like this on a moment’s notice?
Two things.
1 It was featured on Climate Depot yesterday.
2 It had this passage that must not have agreed with somebody higher up in the NOAA food chain:
It has been thought that an increase in carbon dioxide will lead to global warming. While carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has been increasing over the past 100 years, there is no evidence that it is causing an increase in global temperatures.
Or maybe it was this one:
The behavior of the atmosphere is extremely complex. Therefore, discovering the validity of global warming is complex as well. How much effect will the increase in carbon dioxide will have is unclear or even if we recognize the effects of any increase.
So rather than corrupt young minds with a simple science experiment with some inconvenient language attached to it, NOAA simply deleted it. Of course nothing is really deleted on the Internet anymore. NOAA looks pretty silly thinking it would go away with a simple delete.
The Wayback machine has the missing web page for posterity:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060129154229/http://www.srh.noaa.gov/srh/jetstream/atmos/ll_gas.htm
Now it looks like I’ll have to run their simple experiment. Stay tuned.
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So that’s what passes for entertainment in Oregon these days? 😉
Here someone tried a similar experiment
http://www.espere.net/Unitedkingdom/water/uk_watexpgreenhouse.htm
Speaking of this experiment, I’ve always wanted to know what would happen to air temperature if a bunch of equal sized rooms (or bottles or whatever) were filled with air and different amounts CO2 and placed in an area where the get equal amounts of solar radiation. I’d also like to see this done with different amounts of water vapor, from 0 to 100% humidity.
Does anybody know if this has ever been tried?
I think we have a mole! Maybe someone at NOAA is reading this site daily. Yesterday I put the following comments in the tips section and today it’s gone…
Anthony, I would suggest that you do the experiment with and without the cap on the bottle and also with and without the lamp…. just to prove the point that the pressure is responsible for the temperature rise.
From yesterday:
Ray (12:13:18) :
Looks like the guys at NOAA put up their definitive proof experiment up on their site: http://www.srh.noaa.gov/srh/jetstream/atmos/ll_gas.htm
The funny thing about the reaction (i.e. citric acid + baking soda) is that it is endothermic (absorbs heat). Yet, they claim that the temperature increases due to the presence of CO2 in the bottle and the light that shines on it. At the end they again tell how complicated climate science is and bring back the idea that the Venus atmosphere is hot because it is 96% CO2. They don’t say anything about the effect of gas pressure on the temperature of the gas. In their little experiment that “proves” global warming is due to CO2, I suspect that the increase of the pressure in the bottle makes the temperature increase to such extend that it also provides heat to the endothermic reaction. This is a so pathetic experiment that high school chemistry teachers will show that demo to their students and conclude that CO2 = Anthropogenic Global Warming.
2
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2009
Ray (12:16:14) :
Just to add to my post… maybe you should take a sceenshot of that page at NOAA… they might remove it once the bad science is exposed… I bet that doing this in the dark will also have the temperature increase in the bottle containg the Alka-Seltzer since it is a pressure effect that is suspected.
The page still exists on the NOAA website at http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/yos/resource/JetStream/atmos/ll_gas.htm
OT but what’s up with the current lack of “weather”? Current North American cloud cover and storm systems are practically nil. Record daily high temps for the first three days of November in Phoenix. Nothing on the horizon coming down from the Great White North….
So it seems that someone in NOAA knows that the hypothesis of CAGW has been falsified!
Perhaps they should point this out to the IPCC ?
PV=kT
Back2Bat (21:15:29) wanted to know “what the difference between a government scientist and a prostitute is.”
Easy. The pension plan.
SteveBrooklineMA (22:15:40) :
So many things are wrong with that experiment.
1. Pure CO2 compared to an atmosphere containing 350 ppm. How real is this for the Earth?
2. A black sheet of carboard at the bottom of the tanks that represents the surface of the Earth… I did not know we lived on a black body!
3. Since it contains pure CO2, the water vapour pressure is near zero, thus only CO2 will absorb the infrared radiation.
4. Removing the water vapour from the tank containg pure CO2 will permit more radiation to reach the black carboard, thus it will get warmer in the dry tank.
5. I would expect the same results if the tank was filled with dry nitrogen.
Boy are you getting a dose of what Oregon is ALL about.
Of course that was taken down for it’s blasphemous content.
It’s a little surprising it was there in the first place. But my point about Oregon is there is not a single government entity where anything remotely contradictory or outside the agenda is tolerated. For a long time.
Not at any level. Not the municipal, county, regional or state level.
Now that former Oregon State University Professor Jane Lubchenco heads NOAA she’s cleaning things up the Oregon way.
Next you’ll see a new and broadening campaign by NOAA to better educate the public. The Oregon way.
It’s so bad here that our former yet sitting Secretary of State traveled the state giving Al Gore power point presentations.
It may be that someone actually read this “experiment” and thought it was a bunch of hooey – thus, then removing it. If what it claims to show isn’t true, that would be embarrassing. Posters here at WUWT seem to think it isn’t true – thus it should not have been put up, or, having been put up, should be removed as soon as its low science coefficient was realized.
So, what’s up with the “table top lamp” that is used as “a source of heat”? How close is it supposed to be to the bottles? Is it supposed to heat with the shortwave light? Or what? An oven heated brick or cement block would be a better representation of Earth than a light bulb.
Anyway, the whole thing is odd – from the experiment, its Venus sidebar, and its removal. But maybe I don’t understand this as well as NOAA; they, in case you have missed it, are a:
“. . . society that uses a comprehensive understanding of the role of the oceans, coasts, and atmosphere in the global ecosystem . . .” and “. . . understand and predict changes in Earth’s environment. . . ”
gtrip, we are getting weather alerts for a cold front heading our way from the northern Pacific. This is a big one with major ocean swells. NE Oregon temps have been below normal.
Boffin (22:45:09) :
The page still exists on the NOAA website at http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/yos/resource/JetStream/atmos/ll_gas.htm
That one has gone too now.
gtrip (22:46:19) “weather”?
Watch your language! A large moisture laden storm is due Thursday on the PNW coast. I’ll go out and do a dance and see if I can’t redirect it your way if that will make you happy.
More on my previous comment…
If you look at this plot of the emission spectrum of a tungsten lamp, you will notice that the maximum emission is around 1 micron. Now, if you superimpose this emission spectrum to that of the absorption of water and also CO2 ( http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/atmospheric_spectral_absorption.png ) you can see that the water vapours will absorb more radiation than CO2 will. Absorption of infrared radiation does not necessarily mean increase of temperature… so this could support that removing the water vapours from the tank (by displacement) will have the black body absorb more radiations and as it is a black body, the gas above it will heat up more if the tank is dry.
Old man winter is about to bite us in the arse. And you thought nothing is going on with the weather. Who washed their car? That’s what I want to know.
SPECIAL WEATHER STATEMENT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE PORTLAND OR
407 PM PST TUE NOV 3 2009
ORZ001>014-WAZ019>023-039-040-040815-
NORTH OREGON COAST-CENTRAL OREGON COAST-
COAST RANGE OF NORTHWEST OREGON-
CENTRAL COAST RANGE OF WESTERN OREGON-LOWER COLUMBIA-
GREATER PORTLAND METRO AREA-CENTRAL WILLAMETTE VALLEY-
SOUTH WILLAMETTE VALLEY-WESTERN COLUMBIA RIVER GORGE-
NORTHERN OREGON CASCADE FOOTHILLS-NORTHERN OREGON CASCADES-
CASCADE FOOTHILLS IN LANE COUNTY-CASCADES IN LANE COUNTY-
UPPER HOOD RIVER VALLEY-SOUTH WASHINGTON CASCADES-WILLAPA HILLS-
SOUTH WASHINGTON COAST-I-5 CORRIDOR IN COWLITZ COUNTY-
GREATER VANCOUVER AREA-SOUTH WASHINGTON CASCADE FOOTHILLS-
INCLUDING THE CITIES OF…ASTORIA…CANNON BEACH…TILLAMOOK…
LINCOLN CITY…NEWPORT…FLORENCE…VERNONIA…JEWELL…TRASK…
GRANDE RONDE…TIDEWATER…SWISSHOME…ST. HELENS…CLATSKANIE…
HILLSBORO…PORTLAND…OREGON CITY…GRESHAM…SALEM…
MCMINNVILLE…DALLAS…EUGENE…CORVALLIS…ALBANY…HOOD RIVER…
CASCADE LOCKS…MULTNOMAH FALLS…SANDY…
SILVER FALLS STATE PARK…SWEET HOME…GOVERNMENT CAMP…
DETROIT…SANTIAM PASS…VIDA…LOWELL…COTTAGE GROVE…
MCKENZIE BRIDGE…OAKRIDGE…WILLAMETTE PASS…PARKDALE…ODELL…
COLDWATER RIDGE VISITORS CENTER…MOUNT ST. HELENS…FRANCES…
RYDERWOOD…RAYMOND…LONG BEACH…CATHLAMET…LONGVIEW…KELSO…
CASTLE ROCK…STEVENSON…SKAMANIA…VANCOUVER…BATTLE GROUND…
WASHOUGAL…TOUTLE…ARIEL…COUGAR
407 PM PST TUE NOV 3 2009
…STRONG COLD FRONT TO IMPACT REGION WITH RAIN…WIND…AND HEAVY
SWELLS ALONG THE BEACHES LATE THIS WEEK…
A STRONG LOW PRESSURE SYSTEM IS BEGINNING TO GET ORGANIZED IN THE
GULF OF ALASKA TODAY…AND WILL RAPIDLY STRENGTHEN INTO A POWERFUL
STORM TONIGHT AND WEDNESDAY. WHILE THE CENTER OF THIS LOW PRESSURE
SYSTEM IS EXPECTED TO REMAIN IN THE GULF OF ALASKA…IT WILL PUSH
A STRONG COLD FRONT ONSHORE INTO THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST THURSDAY.
WINDS ASSOCIATED WITH THE FRONT MAY GUST AS HIGH AS 50 TO 60 MPH
NEAR THE BEACHES AND COASTAL HEADLANDS THURSDAY…AS WELL AS
ACROSS THE HIGHER TERRAIN OF THE COAST RANGE AND CASCADES. THE
FRONT WILL LIKELY BE ACCOMPANIED BY A PERIOD OF HEAVY RAIN…
ESPECIALLY IN THE COAST RANGE WHERE UP TO 2 TO 3 INCHES OF RAIN
ARE POSSIBLE THURSDAY THROUGH THURSDAY NIGHT.
SNOW LEVELS WILL START OFF WELL ABOVE THE CASCADE PASSES EARLY
THURSDAY…BUT ARE EXPECTED TO FALL QUICKLY AS THE FRONT MOVES
ACROSS THE CASCADES THURSDAY AFTERNOON AND EVENING. BY FRIDAY
MORNING…ACCUMULATING SNOW IS POSSIBLE AS LOW AS SOME OF THE
CASCADE PASSES. WITH COOL UNSETTLED WEATHER EXPECTED TO CONTINUE
FOR SEVERAL DAYS BEHIND THE FRONT…SNOW SHOWERS MAY CONTINUE
THROUGH THE WEEKEND AS LOW AS 3000 TO 4000 FEET IN ELEVATION.
ANOTHER SIGNIFICANT ASPECT OF THE GULF OF ALASKA STORM SYSTEM WILL
BE THE VERY LARGE OCEAN SWELL EXPECTED TO DEVELOP AS THE STORM
STRENGTHENS WEDNESDAY. THIS SWELL MAY BEGIN IMPACTING THE SOUTH
WASHINGTON AND NORTH OREGON COAST WITH HIGH SURF AS EARLY AS
THURSDAY MORNING…WITH THE STRONGEST WAVES IMPACTING THE BEACHES
THURSDAY NIGHT THROUGH SATURDAY. THE HEAVY SURF MAY PROVIDE THE
POSSIBILITY FOR MINOR COASTAL FLOODING DURING HIGH TIDE…AND THE
LARGE BREAKERS MAY PRODUCE HAZARDOUS CONDITIONS ALONG THE
BEACHES.
the emission spectrum of a tungsten lamp:
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intdept/i42/Planckspect.gif
I fancy one of those data logger thingies. How do I get one in the UK?
Tried an experiment some months ago. Suspended a one foot diameter quarter inch thick piece of boiler plate one inch above a container of water. The steel plate plate was heated until a drop of water sizzled, (somewhere around 100C). Was unable to read any change on a mecury thermometer. Oh, and the water container is insulated on sides and bottom. The object was to see if infrared radiation would heat water. Fun anyway.
I am guessing the chemical reaction that causes the fizz fizz of the seltzer tablets builds up quite a head of heat. I use a similar experiment to shoot the lids off old plastic film canisters with a legoman sitting on top.
So that’s what passes for entertainment in Oregon these days? 😉
With the very Progressive government in Oregon, and thus one of the highest unemployment rates in the country, they’ve got to come up with something to pass the time.
I wonder if they have sacked the person responsible for this site.
One thing is for sure, the Green establishment is watching WUWT and Climate Depot like a hawk and the moment one of their “domains” is walking out of pace, be sure they get an angry phone call.
“how much effect will the increase in carbon dioxide will have is unclear or even if we recognize the effects of any increase.”
Sorry. Has the English teacher in cadet school gone missing??
“Who washed their car?” Pam who am in Oregon.
Pam,
I prayed for cold weather but only on the AGW crowd and their accomplishes. Oregon should be safe shouldn’t it?
Important questions:
Will Congress cap and tax seltzer?
Will the EPA declare seltzer to be a dangerous pollutant?
Will there eventually a black market for seltzer?
I plan to stock up and secretly hoard the stuff starting tomorrow.
http://swenglishrantings.com/swenglishrantings/Docs/ll_gas.htm