UPDATE2: The question has been resolved, please see this new WUWT story on the issue. – Anthony
UPDATE: There is a debate raging in comments about the validity of the statement “That is four degrees below the freezing point of CO2 and would cause dry (CO2) ice to freeze directly out of the air.”
On one hand we have an argument from several commenters that says that the temperatures, pressures, and phase diagrams only apply to a pure state of CO2, such as in the manufacture of dry ice.
“Certainly, at least some of the CO2 in the atmosphere at the poles does freeze out (of the air) during the winter.”
So there appears to be a debate. If it turns out the statement is wrong, and some empirical proof can be presented, I’ll retract and/or amend the article. There appears to be a wide interest in this question, so I’m not opposed to find the true answer, even if it means the statement is entirely wrong.
Feel free to post in comments, but leave the snark and ad hom out of it. I’m more interested in settling the question.
I’ve also changed the title to be more reflective of the question before us now. – Anthony
By Steven Goddard
The south pole of Mars (seen below) similarly has an eight metre thick layer of dry (CO2) ice on top of the H2O ice.
Mars, too, appears to be enjoying more mild and balmy temperatures. In 2005 data from NASA’s Mars Global Surveyor and Odyssey missions revealed that the carbon dioxide “ice caps” near Mars’s south pole had been diminishing for three summers in a row. Habibullo Abdussamatov, head of space research at St. Petersburg’s Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory in Russia, says the Mars data is evidence that the current global warming on Earth is being caused by changes in the sun. “The long-term increase in solar irradiance is heating both Earth and Mars,” he said.
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Are there clouds on Mars?
Mike (02:35:19) :
Re Squidly (23:25:51) :
“According to data in my books CO2 sumlimes at -78.5°C at 1atmosphere pressure. The liquid phase is only possible at a minimum pressure of 5 atmospheres, where the solid melts at -56.7°C.
Given that the partial pressure of CO2 in the atmosphere is about 0.0004 atmospheres, at -80°C (~-113°F) freezing it out of the atmosphere would not be possible – or am I missing something?”
Not sure, but no one has shown Steven to be wrong. At first blush it would appear that everything in the atmosphere is under a certain pressure under certain conditions, including CO2, regardless of it’s concentration. Your figure if correct would be the atmospheric pressure of a pure CO2 atmosphere, which of course it is not.
The global warming issue has done much to set back climate science. In particular, the notion that climate is one-dimensional — which is to say, that it is totally described by some fictitious global mean temperature and some single gross forcing a la increased CO2 — is grotesque in its oversimplification. I must reluctantly add that this error is perpetuated by those attempting to ‘explain’ climate with solar variability. Unlike greenhouse forcing, solar forcing is so vague that one can’t reject it. However, acting as though this is the alternative to greenhouse forcing is asking for trouble.
Dr Richard Lindzen, Heartland Conference, March.
http://www.heartland.org/full/24841/Climate_Alarm_What_We_Are_Up_Against_and_What_to_Do.html
MIT has one of the world’s preeminent climatologists Dr. Richard Lindzen
in their Department of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences.
Steve Goddard, May.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/05/25/global-warming-of-7c-could-kill-billions-this-century/
Habibullo Abdussamatov, head of space research at St. Petersburg’s Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory in Russia, says the Mars data is evidence that the current global warming on Earth is being caused by changes in the sun. ”The long-term increase in solar irradiance is heating both Earth and Mars,” he said.
as quoted by Steve Goddard. June.
As for Abdussamatov’s claim that solar fluctuations are causing Earth’s current global warming, Charles Long, a climate physicist at Pacific Northwest National Laboratories in Washington, says the idea is nonsense.
“That’s nuts,” Long said in a telephone interview. “It doesn’t make physical sense that that’s the case.”
http://www.livescience.com/environment/070312_solarsys_warming.html
Is Lindzen correct? Is Abdussamatov in error and ‘asking for trouble’? Is his theory ‘nuts’? I think we should be told.
TonyS (03:11:13) :
“Are there clouds on Mars?”
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/MPF/science/clouds.html
“BBC beginning to blow cold on global warming?”
Here’s another article from Auntie along similar lines (from March)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7929174.stm
Beer is a basic human, if not civil, statutory and constitutional right. If it’s not protected, explicitly, it should be.
Glen, when you find air at 100C dropping dew, then you can believe that rubbish about CO2 condensing at the South Pole. That is science so bad that it’s worthy of the Global Warmmongers.
Two short remarks:
– the opposite of sublimation is deposition, not freezing (which is associated with melting)
– deposition will only take place (as was mentioned) if the partial pressure of CO2 in the atmosphere becomes higher than the solid-gas vapor pressure of CO2 at the temperature of interest. I really doubt it is the case, given the low pCO2 we have here.
Please Goddard can we have no more of this scientific illiteracy, look at the phase diagram of CO2!
Thank you Phil. for being awake through high school chemistry. Henry’s Law was covered then as well, why the attitude?
If you want to hold the conference in Vostok next week, I’d advise all male attendees to visit a sperm bank before going……..you never know what might happen to you down there…….
On the Martian surface atmospheric pressure is about 0.01 Atm where CO2 makes up about 95%.
Andrew P (00:51:06)
Andrew,
Your question “why the Subsurface 10m temperature is always slightly lower than the temperature at -3m? ”
There is no mistake here, what you’re seeing is the seasonal effect of thermal lag.
I have a screenshots of the temperature profile for the eight days of 9th Dec til 17 Dec 2008 (nearly mid-summer) which shows a temperature of -60C at 3m and a “warmer” temperature of -59C at 10 metres.
A screenshot for 9th -16th May 2008 (early winter) has the 3m sensor at -56C, the 1m & 10m both at -58C and the near surface 0.1m down at -63C with air temperatures touching -75C.
The warmth of summer takes 6 months to reach 10 metres into the ice in a top down heating process, likewise the cold of winter withdraws heat from the ice in a similar top down manner.
See http://www.aad.gov.au/default.asp?casid=20368 for details of this process.
“Glen, when you find air at 100C dropping dew,”
What’s the stuff you see coming off a boiling kettle ?
” Does anyone have any information about this? ”
I have asked this question before in previous threads. There must be information tracking the temperatures of other nearby planets. Surely the correlation of these planetary temperatures with that of the earth (warming spells followed by cooling spells), although tempered by many factors on each of the planets (clouds, %land mass, atmospheric makeup, etc) would suggest that the big glowing thing in the sky (i.e., our sun) is primarily responsible for the ups and downs of temperatures on the earth and other nearby planets. To me, this is crucial information, but I have yet to find it anywhere.
So if you precisely weighed a block of CO2 and put it outside at this temp:
a) It still sublimates and loses weight
b) Too cold to lose but partial pressure to low for condensifreezing (?) so no weight difference
c) Condensifreezing occurs so block gains weight
Kitchen science for you!
If you’re in Antarctica of course.
Boy, the arctic ice extent is dropping fast the last few weeks… Wonder why?
“Sandy (05:03:05) :
“Glen, when you find air at 100C dropping dew,”
What’s the stuff you see coming off a boiling kettle ?”
Steam. The stuff you *can’t* see, is vapour.
Maybe the great Ray Bradbury will, as he approaches the age of 90, add a chapter to __The Martian Chronicles__around the theme of playing hockey on the ice caps of the fourth rock from the Sun.
I’m sorry; I’m just being puckish.
“Beer is a basic human, if not civil, statutory and constitutional right. If it’s not protected, explicitly, it should be.”
Oh, the horror if the world is exposed to the abomination that is Oklahoma Near Beer.
If any freezes out, it will likely be trace amounts.
It would be interesting to test in a lab condition with sensitive instruments.
Is that a photo of Mars’ southern ice cap or a photo of the surface of an indoor swimming pool with the lights turned off and a hole in the roof?
I was thinking about dry ice last week and thought if carbon taxes or carbon trading took effect, how damaging would it be to dry ice manufacturers and ice cream makers (they use dry ice)? Or would they be seen as part of the solution?
“What’s the stuff you see coming off a boiling kettle ?”
Aaaargh, it’s the mist of water droplets you get when pure steam is injected into air that’s much cooler than 100C.
We have a number of posters here boldly proving that according to their misinterpretation of how phase diagrams work, polar ice caps can’t exist on earth. Look at the phase diagram for water.
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html
Water vapor partial pressure near the poles is close to zero during the winter. Using the brilliant interpretation of Phil et al, the freezing point of water in Antarctica and the Arctic would be close to -70C, and there could be no ice.
The reason why water freezes at 273C is because of the atmospheric pressure of 1KPa, not because of the partial pressure of water – which is much lower, and varies hugely from the poles to the tropics.
The freezing point of water (and CO2) is fixed by the atmospheric pressure – not the partial pressure. Likewise, the boiling point of water is fixed by the atmospheric pressure and is independent of the humidity or partial pressure of water in the air.
Does Phil also believe that water boils at room temperature on earth, due to the low partial pressure of water?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Water_vapor_pressure_graph.jpg
As usual, Phil got distracted and missed the point of the article – which is wondering whether the Martian ice caps have stopped shrinking.
Carbon free beer is called “water.”