
This essay below from Ralph Ellis was posted in comments a couple of days ago, and I decided to promote it to a full post.
For the record, let me say that I support some of the renewable energy ideas, even putting money where my mouth is, putting solar on my own home and a local school. However, neither project would have been possible without state subsidies. For renewable energy to work in our economy, it must move past the government subsidy stage and become more efficient. It took over a hundred years t create our current energy infrastructure, anyone who believes we can completely rebuild it with the current crop of renewable energy technologies is not realistic. – Anthony
Renewable energy – our downfall? By Ralph Ellis
The government, under pressure from a disparate confederation of environmentalists and greens, have agreed to press ahead with a host of renewable energy sources, including wind, tidal and wave power. Yet, despite the vast sums of public money that will be allocated to these projects and the fundamental enormity of the decisions that have been made, there has been very little in the way of open debate on the subject. Like many aspects of today’s governmental system, the powers that be appear to have made a decision about future energy production based upon image, spin and the number of votes the policy will capture, while ignoring the basic truths and science that should be the foundation-stone of any policy. Nobody has even debated the absolutely fundamental question of whether any of these energy generation systems actually work. The media’s reaction to this steamrollered, image-based decision-making process has been muted to the point of being inaudible, and I can only assume that either very few in the media have any grasp of the calamitous implications of the government’s policy, or they are cowering behind their desks for fear of losing their jobs.
So why, then, do I consider renewable energy to be a danger to the entire nation, both economically and socially? This is, after all, ‘free energy’, and what can be the problem with a free resource? Well, as readers will probably be fully aware, no resource is free even if it appears to be so, and this is the first of the many lies about renewable energy that have been peddled by industry spokesmen and government ministers. Oil is not free, despite it just sitting in the ground; water is not free, despite it falling from the sky; nuclear power is not free, despite the raw materials being ridiculously cheap, and neither is any renewable energy resource ‘free’. In fact, the conversion process from ‘free’ renewable energy to usable grid electricity is remarkably expensive and its enormous costs are being subsidised by the consumer. In the UK, this subsidy is achieved through Renewables Obligation Certificates, the cost of which are eventually passed onto the consumer. In 2006 the cost to consumers was £600 million, and this is predicted to rise to £3 billion in 2020. 1 That is about £200 per household per annum, on top of current energy bills, for the privilege of using of ‘free’ energy.
Now one might argue that that is not very much money to demand from the public, given the advertised prospect of clean, renewable energy that will fuel our homes and our economy for the next few generations. Power at the press of a button, and not a drop of noxious emissions of any nature in sight – just an array of perfectly silent, gently rotating wind-turbines stretching towards the horizon – it is dream-world picture direct from the cover issue of an environmentalist magazine, and the answer to a politician’s prayers. In one master-stroke the environment is magically healed, and votes are captured by the million – roll on the next election.
However, it is my belief that this sublime day-dream actually holds the seeds for our economic decline and for social disorder on an unprecedented scale. Why? Because no technical and industrial society can maintain itself on unreliable and intermittent power supplies. In 2003 there were six major electrical blackouts across the world, and the American Northeast blackout of August 14th was typical of these. The outage started in Ohio, when some power lines touched some trees and took out the Eastlake power station, but the subsequent cascade failure took out 256 power stations within one hour.
The entire Northeast was down onto emergency electrical supplies, and the result was social and economic chaos. Nothing, in our integrated and automated world, works without electricity. Transport came to a grinding halt. Aircraft were grounded, trains halted and road traffic was at a standstill, due to a lack of traffic lights and fuel. Water supplies were severely disrupted, as were telecommunications, while buildings had to be evacuated due to a lack of fire detection and suppression systems. Without any available transport, many commuters were forced to sleep in offices or in Central Park, and while the summer temperatures made this an office-adventure to remember, had this been winter the results of this electrical failure could have been catastrophic.
This is what happens to a major technical civilisation when its life-blood, its electrical supply, is turned off. Chaos looms, people die, production ceases, life is put on hold. Yet this was just a once-in-a-decade event, a memorable occasion to laugh about over dinner-parties for many years to come, but just imagine what would happen to a society where this happened every week, or if the power was cut for a whole fortnight or more. Now things are getting serious. Without transport, refrigeration, computers and key workers, food production and distribution would cease. Sleeping in Central Park on a balmy summer’s night is a memorable inconvenience, whereas fifty million empty bellies is getting very serious indeed. In fact, it is a recipe for violence and civil unrest.
But what has all this doom and gloom got to do with the government’s drive for renewable energy, you might ask? Well, the entire problem with renewables – almost all renewables – is that they are dangerously intermittent power sources.
Perhaps the first renewable source we should discuss is tidal power. Unfortunately, while tidal power initially looks like a dream power source of cheap, renewable energy, it suffers from massive variability in supply. The energy that it produces is tidal, and the tides are, of course, linked to the orbit of the Moon, with there being about two tides every day. This sinusoidal tidal pattern produces four slack periods during each day when the tide is turning, either at high tide or at low tide, and during these slack periods the tidal power system will not generate any electricity at all. Unfortunately, the energy that is produced is therefore delivered at set periods of the day which are connected to the orbit of the Moon, rather than our daily lives, and so the electricity produced is in no way synchronised with the electrical demand cycle. If these slack periods coincide with the 7-am and 7-pm peak demands for electricity, as they will several times a month, then the whole generating system is next to useless.
Since the energy produced earlier in the day cannot be stored, as will be explained later, extra generating capacity will have to be brought on-line to cover the deficiency. This means that for every tidal system installed, a conventional power station will have to be either built or retained to ensure continuity of energy supply. But this power station will have to be up and running all the time, what is known in the industry as ’spinning-reserve’, as it takes up to 12 hours to bring a power station on-line from a cold start-up. Thus if we are to maintain continuity of supply, this wonderful ‘free-energy’ tidal source actually results in twice the cost and saves very little in the way of hydrocarbon fuels. So, unless we are prepared to accept rolling power cuts across the country, which would result in the same chaos as the Northeast blackout, it is unlikely that we could ever successfully integrate large tidal power systems into the National Grid.
While tidal power may be predictably intermittent, wind power is even more problematical. Recent EU directives have stipulated that some 40% of electricity should be powered from renewable resources by 2020. If this were to be predominantly produced from wind turbines, as is likely, then we would need some 30 gigawatts (gw) of wind generating capacity. To put that figure in perspective, the UK currently has about 0.5 gw of wind capacity. However, that is not the full story, for UK wind turbines are only currently delivering about 25% of installed capacity, due to wind fluctuations and maintenance issues. That means we actually need some 120 gw of installed wind generation capacity to cover just 40% of total UK electrical demand. If the turbines being constructed average 2 mw rated capacity, then we shall need some 60,000 wind turbines to be installed over the next twelve years. And where shall we erect all those? – Certainly Not In My Back Yard.
But building thousands of wind turbines still does not resolve the fundamental problem, for the real problem here is the enormous scale of wind variability. I saw a wind-power spokesman the other week on the flagship BBC Hardtalk series, who claimed that the number of days without wind power in the UK were as rare as hen’s teeth – a comment that went totally unchallenged. Well all I can say, is that the hens in the UK must look like a Tyrannosaurus Rex.
The truth of the matter is that there are numerous days without significant winds across the UK, and when those conditions occur it doesn’t matter how much installed generating capacity we have, for it all goes off-line. A report from Denmark 2 indicates that the Danish ‘wind carpet’, which is the largest array of wind turbines in Europe, generated less than 1% of installed power on 54 days during 2002. That is more than one day every week of the year without electrical power. However, if we broaden the definition of ‘without power’ slightly, the same Danish ‘wind carpet’ generated less than 10% of installed capacity for some 16 weeks during 2003. Yet Denmark has the same kind of northerly, maritime weather systems as does the UK. Thus the wind-generation industry is lying to us, once more, for a ‘wind carpet’ that generates less than 10% of installed capacity it next to useless, for the national electrical grid will never cope with such a massive reduction in power supply. In fact, wind generation is so useless, that Denmark, Europe’s largest wind generating nation by far, has never used any of its wind-generated electricity – because it is too variable. It is almost impossible to integrate wind power into a normal generating grid, and so Denmark has merely exported its variable wind supplies to Norway and Sweden. 3 These nations can cope with these electrical fluctuations because of their abundance of hydro-electric power, which can be turned on and off quite rapidly, unlike most other generating systems.
This revelation, that wind power is totally unusable, brings us onto the other great lie of renewable energy proponents – the lie that renewable power can somehow be stored to cope with power outages. The first of these miraculous energy storage facilities, that is said to come to the aid of the thousands of wind-turbines that lie motionless across the entire nation, is the pumped water storage system. However, this claim is utter nonsense, and for the following reasons:
a. Our present pumped storage systems are already fully utilized in overcoming variability in electrical DEMAND, and so they have absolutely no extra capacity for overcoming variability in SUPPLY due to the unreliable wind and tidal generation systems.
b. Pumped storage systems currently only supply a very small percentage of the grid (about 5%) for just a few hours, while wind generation systems can go off-line for days or weeks at a time, as the Danish generation report clearly demonstrates. To put this argument into figures, the Dinorwig power storage system, the largest in the UK, can provide 5% of the UK’s power generation requirements (2.9 gw) for up to 5 hours before it runs out of water. (Thus the total capacity of Dinorwig is 14.5 gwh). If the UK was entirely dependent on wind power, a wind outage lasting just two days would require 140 storage stations with the same generating capacity as Dinorwig to maintain normal power supplies (assuming average UK demand of 1,000 gwh/day). As the Danish report confirms, power outages lasting a week or more are the norm, rather than the exception, and so if the UK generated a significant proportion of our electrical capacity from wind-turbines, as the EU has argued, the lights and heating systems would be going out, the computers going down and transport systems failing all over the country.
c. Pumped storage systems are not only hugely expensive to construct, the topography of Britain ensures that very few sites are available, and so we will never be able to store significant amounts of our energy requirements. These storage systems also tend to be situated in areas of outstanding natural beauty, and so – you have guessed it – the Greens oppose the very storage system they are promoting.
The same kind of argument can be sustained for flywheel energy storage, compressed air storage, battery storage and hydrogen storage – for each and every one of these systems is highly complex, very expensive, hugely inefficient and limited in capacity. The much hyped ‘Hydrogen Economy’ is one of these technological cul-de-sacs. It should be stated from the outset that hydrogen is not an energy source, but an energy storage system – a ‘battery’. The hydrogen has to be created before it is used, and it merely stores the energy that is flowing through the normal electrical grid. Unfortunately for the proponents of this clean ‘energy system’, hydrogen powered vehicles and generators are only about 5% efficient. A huge amount of energy is wasted in the production, liquification and storage of the hydrogen, and so hydrogen will not be propelling our cars, nor will it be storing energy for when the wind stops blowing. In addition, hydrogen storage vessels are highly flammable and potentially explosive, and I for one would rather have a nuclear power station on my doorstep than a hydrogen facility. However, the final unsayable truth about hydrogen powered vehicles (and electric vehicles) is that we would have to double or treble the number of power stations to cope with this electrical demand. The fact that many cars would recharge overnight would be useful in evening out electrical demand, but the number of power stations in the UK would at least double. Now what would the Greens have to say about that?
In short, it would appear that some of the proponents of these storage systems simply have no concept of the huge amounts of energy that a nation like Britain uses within a normal week. There is no energy system available that can remotely be expected to replace renewable energy resources, while they lie dormant for weeks on end. These and other delusions that are being being peddled by renewables proponents are downright dangerous, as they give ignorant ministers in government the impression that we can maintain this nation on renewable energy supplies. But nothing could be further from the truth, and the 2003 blackouts demonstrate the seriousness of the consequences if we do run out of electrical power.
Nuclear
But if the large-scale use of renewable energy systems is utterly impractical, there has to be a solution to our energy supply problems; because even in the short term our dependance on foreign oil and gas places us at the mercy of oil and gas owning despots, who will seek to gain every leverage possible over us. Look at the current situation in the Middle East and Russia and multiply that by ten, and you have some idea of our future political situation if we become solely dependent on foreign energy supplies.
In addition to this – for every year we delay in getting reliable and internally sourced energy supplies, millions of tonnes of a valuable mineral resources are literally going up in smoke. Nearly everything we need in our modern world needs oil as a raw material to make it – no oil supplies not only means no energy, but also no raw materials too. When the last barrel of oil comes out of the ground – and if alternate energy provisions are not already in place – human civilization as we know it will cease to exist. That is neither an exaggeration nor a joke, for absolutely nothing in our modern world will work without adequate energy supplies and petrochemical raw materials to make the things we so often take for granted.
What ever you may think about the technology, the ONLY reliable answer to our energy supply and global warming problems for the foreseeable future is going to be nuclear power (either fission or fusion). Ok, so nuclear power has got a bad name through Chernobyl and a few other incidents, but the Chernobyl plant in particular should never have been allowed in the first place. The RBMK design was (and still is) a rudimentary graphite moderated steam cooled plant with no containment vessel – indeed, it was no better that the original ‘graphite pile’ in the Manhattan Project (circa 1943). Remember that graphite and steam are an explosive combination if they get hot enough, and that’s exactly what happened at Chernobyl (this was NOT a ‘nuclear’ explosion). This arrangement should never have been allowed at the design stage, which is why the British AGRs (Advanced Gas Reactors) used an inert gas coolant. In addition, both the AGR and the the USAs PWRs (Pressurized Water Reactors) are naturally fission-stable, and their very nature will resist and counter a runaway thermic event like that which occurred at Chernobyl.
While the early designs of nuclear power stations have highlighted the problems that poor design or construction can pose, our design and technological capability has moved on in great strides. The Russian RBMKs are the equivalent of a model T Ford, the British AGRs represent Morris Minor technology from the ’60s, but we are now capable of producing Bugattis and Ferraris – which provide a quantum leap in terms of safety and efficiency. The point is that there are methods of reducing nuclear risks if we put our minds to it, and the latest design from Westinghouse – the AP1000 – will be able to deliver ten times the efficiency of the reactors in current use. (Which makes it odd that the UK government have just sold Westinghouse to Toshiba of Japan, just as orders for new power stations are about to be signed.)
Therefore, we could supply Britain’s entire current and future energy requirements with nuclear power, while only using the same amount of nuclear material that is in circulation today (and which produces just 20% of our needs). Remember also that nuclear power is non-polluting in terms of greenhouse gasses, acid rain and other noxious emissions, and thus all of the reductions that we aspire to make in these pollutants could be achieved in a stroke if we turned to nuclear power.
And when it comes to nuclear safety issues, let us not forget that thousands of people in ships and submarines live in close proximity to nuclear plants with no ill-effects. Also remember that while nuclear power has acquired a bad name, courtesy of some sections of the media, far more ecological damage has been done and many more people have died though oil and coal extraction, over the past decades, than in nuclear power incidents. Remember Piper Alpha, Aberfan, Torry Canyon, Exxon Valdes, etc: etc:? The list is almost endless, especially if one includes all the coal-pit disasters in Russia and China, from which much of our energy, in terms of finished products, is now sourced. If a nuclear power station had killed a whole school full of children the environmentalists would never let us forget it, but because it was the result of the coal industry they let the memory fade. If 6,000 workers were killed every year in the nuclear industry Greenpeace would go ballistic, but because these are coal mining deaths in China they are ignored. Why do some people exhibit these double standards? What is it about technical progress that they so despise? In some respects, some of these anti-nuclear demonstrators appear to be portraying themselves as the world’s very own technological Taliban, and in this guise they must be vigorously opposed.
However, it should be borne in mind that fission power is only a temporary stop-gap that will maintain our economy and civilisation over the next century until something better comes along. Nuclear fusion may well be that brighter future, but for all the reasons already given we need a solution now, not in 30 year’s time. Nuclear fission will provide a stop-gap for that vital century, but fission power on its own is a non-renewable energy resource. The way forward has to be fast-breeder fission, where the nuclear core creates its own fuel supply, a technique that has already been demonstrated and perfected. This energy source would provide the world with 1,000 years of energy, a large enough stop-gap to allow all kinds of new exotic energy sources to be discovered and exploited.
We have about 30 or so years before the shortage of oil becomes acute and our economies and societies begin to falter, and that is not very much time in which to alter our entire energy production industry. It is like relying on the Victorians to plan ahead and ensure that we still had a viable civilisation in the 1930s. And while the Victorians were both successful and resourceful, history demonstrates that new sources of raw materials were never actively planned until the old sources were in desperately short supply or worked-out completely. However, the introduction of a new, nationwide power generating system is an extremely long-term investment, and if we are to make this change without a dramatic interruption to our energy supplies (and our society) we need foresight, vision and a quick decision. What we need is a tough, educated, talented, rational leader to take a difficult but responsible decision to dramatically increase our nuclear energy production capability. However, what we have in the UK is Gordon Brown!
Ralph Ellis
June 2004
1. David Derbyshire, Daily Mail 5th Feb 2008.
2 & 3 Hugh Sharman, Why wind power works in Denmark.
Roger Sowell,
Well, large and small hydro are killing off the fish, so we’ll wait until the regulators side with the fish and start tearing those down. You are certainly aware of the internecine warfare going on regarding water.
As far as I know, the Altamont wind farm is not tied to any storage. It is a disaster. Calfornia’s Energy Commission website published its last Wind Performance Summary Report (required by law, by the way) for the 2000-2001 period. I cannot get the data to write my representatives on this lunacy. By the way, the Altamont wind farm did kill a member of the public. And those raptor kills are really causing heartburn.
Not sure how rates are calculated, but my 131%-200% of baseline is 24.7 cents/KwH. 201%-300 is 35.4 cents/KwH. I hit these routinely in a relatively new house all tweaked up to Title 24. As an electrical engineer, these are embarrassing figures.
And as you mention, the colonial power known as California is trying to dictate the fuel mix for electricity generated outside the state. Wait until the ratepayers experience the full magnitude of that nonsense. That, together with the budget fiasco, should leave no doubt that Sacramento is inhabited by fruits and nuts very much disconnected from reality.
Roger,
The PTC for new nukes is for 8 years. The life of a new nuclear plant is probably 80 years.
http://www.ne.doe.gov/np2010/neScorecard/neScorecard.html
Arthur
E.M. Smith:
It is great delight to read your well-informed and level-headed posts and web site (including stock trading part; gilty of same passion too).
I would like to add, that 2005-2008 renaissance in uranium exploration (it is mostly busted right now) yielded tremendous discoveries of high-grade uranium reserves virtually everywhere where exploration was allowed (up to 20% of yellowcake) . We are, effectively, centuries or even millenniums from even thinking about ocean uranium extraction. But it is nice to know that we have huge explorable uranium reserve in oceans.
Second, as I am aware of, every singly country which acquired nuclear weapons did it on dedicated “research” reactors, not commercial electricity generating units.
Third, previously built nuclear power stations were life line for survival for numerous E.European and post-soviet countries, when their economies collapsed after disintegration of Soviet Union, when these countries did not have single dollar in their coffers to buy NG, coal, and electricity from abroad. Some examples: Ukraine – 47% electricity nuclear, Czech – 30%, Bulgaria – 32%, Slovakia – 54%, Hungary – 37%, Lithuania – 65%, Slovenia – 42%, etc.
And one interesting news: “Canada is poised to sign a deal with India to sell nuclear technology and materials…The pact will open up the lucrative Indian market to Canadian nuclear exports for the first time in more than three decades…Under the deal Canadian nuclear exports cannot be used for military purposes…The estimation is over the next 20 years, something like anywhere from CA$50 ($44) to CA$150 billion ($133 billion) worth of civil nuclear energy needs are what we’re looking at…AECL signed a deal earlier this year with a leading Indian engineering firm to start costing out the ACR 1000s — the prelude to a possible sale…Cameco Corp., is also poised to sell uranium to India.”
adoucette,
Very interesting site, thank you for sharing that.
PTC (production tax credit for nuclear plants) is described here:
http://www.nei.org/keyissues/newnuclearplants/factsheets/policiessupportnewplantdevelopmentpage3
You may be right about 80 years life on a new nuclear plant. We typically designed oil refineries for a 30 year life, and many of them are still running after 60 years. They had/have extensive inspection and replacement of various portions when those portions no longer met specifications. In the case of nuclear plants, ultimate lifetime is determined by the NRC, who either grants or denies extensions of an operating license.
arcs_n_sparks,
I “feel your pain” at the electric meter. I suspect that the electric rate structure in California is designed to encourage solar PV systems. I have an associate in the Los Angeles region who also pays in the 25 cents/kwh range at his home for incremental power, and is installing PV to eliminate that charge. He hopes to bring his power usage down to the base level. The economics look much better when the power saved is at 35 or even 25 cents, compared to 14 cents.
We have a similar rate structure as you described, here in Southern California Edison territory.
I don’t know how close the nearest pumped storage hydro plant is to Altamont, but down here we have a couple of them along I-5 near Santa Clarita. Our nearest wind-farm is at Tehachapi, about 40 miles away.
In general, I agree with your assessment of the geniuses in Sacramento. But, they are moving in the right direction on one point, SB 696. We had a state judge rule that our AQMD issued invalid pollution permits, and that ruling affects not only businesses but power plants. SB 696 will overturn that ruling, and allow the utilities and IOU’s to build again.
It is not yet law, but the current version of the bill may be found here:
http://leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/sen/sb_0651-0700/sb_696_bill_20090505_amended_sen_v97.html
Climate Heretic (12:31:34) :
My broader point is directed at those who steadfastly maintain that nuclear power plants do not receive subsidies in the U.S.
To one of your specific points, “2B for enrichment Research and Development = Science – you do not think the Government should fund science?”
Government is so good and efficient at what it does, one can only wonder if any research should be funded with tax dollars. Perhaps private funding through universities would produce better results.
An example of tax-supported science research is the Hanford site in Washington state. Hanford has cost the taxpayer $30 billion over the past 20 years, and consumes more tax dollars at the rate of $2 billion per year for cleanup of radioactive wastes. That government-sponsored science research produced plutonium for the first atomic bombs.
The article linked below states: “The federal government now spends about $2 billion each year at Hanford, or roughly one-third of the total nuclear cleanup budget, to rid the site of radioactive and toxic waste.”
That would indicate that $6 billion per year of taxpayer dollars is spent on cleaning up nuclear wastes.
http://news.lp.findlaw.com/ap/a/w/1155/05-28-2009/20090528002010_12.html
E.M.Smith (11:59:10) :
Well-said, sir, well-said.
See this link from the Wall Street Journal for a few reasons why a government cannot run a business efficiently. I believe this is not behind a pay-wall.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124277530070436823.html
A nuclear powered ship doing, oh, 3 knots? would take darned near no power at all to run.
I’d like one that could do 20 knots or better top speed. Handy for staying out of the way of storms or navigating in one.
BTW I call the enviro plans The Great Leap Backwards
Roger wrote:
My broader point is directed at those who steadfastly maintain that nuclear power plants do not receive subsidies in the U.S.
Roger,
The US has a long vested interest in nuclear research for Military purposes, both from a weapons and as a source of power for propulsion of its subs and carriers. Of course a lot of that research has been used to help develop the Nuclear Power industry, but its not the same as a subsidy.
Hanford was all about ending WW2, so its cleanup shouldn’t be tied to the Nuclear Power industry either.
Arthur
adoucette,
How about this, then? Is this close enough to government subsidy, and is the $18.5 billion sufficient? Government money, propping up the nuclear power industry that would otherwise wither away and fail…yup, sounds like a subsidy.
“Last October, the department [DOE] received 19 applications from 17 electric power companies seeking a total of $122 billion in loan guarantees to build new reactors, far more than the $18.5 billion Congress has provided in loan guarantee authority for nuclear power plants. . .
With the cost of a new nuclear power plant now at more than $9 billion and credit markets reluctant to commit to such projects in the current economic climate, utilities have virtually ruled out construction of a new plant without government loan guarantees.
On Friday, John Rowe, chairman of Exelon Corp., which operates 17 nuclear reactors, told reporters after a speech at the National Press Club that he had no intention of proceeding with the construction of two new reactors near Victoria, Texas, without government loan guarantees.” [bold emphasis added – RES] [ Victoria is the site of the infamous South Texas Nuclear Plant]
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jPKRdG1M4Dbw2iuD7_4Io9zEE5oQD9870SH80
This is just one such article, as they appear almost daily. It is quite amusing that new nuclear power plants so obviously require government funding, yet there are those who insist that that industry is self-sufficient. If this does not provide adequate proof, then I don’t know what will.
To EM Smith @ur momisugly 11:59
Some reasonable statements about CANDU but some inaccuracies as well. CANDU is not necessarily a lower cost reactor than LWRs. Because it uses natural uranium fuel, it is a physically larger reactor with a much lower neutron flux density. It tends to be more stable than LWRs because a much larger proportion of the total core is required for a self-sustaining reaction. However, its greater capital cost is offset by its lower fuel costs; no enrichment of fuel and no conversions steps to and from UF6.
Its void coefficient tends to be at least one to two orders of magnitude smaller than any LWR, meaning that its behaviour is highly predictable under operating conditions.
Using heavy water moderator means that CANDU has slower neutrons and more efficient use of them. The fuel result is that CANDU gets about 30% more energy out of a ton of uranium fuel than any LWR. So, you have higher construction costs, and lower fuel costs.
With respect to performance under accident conditions, the CANDU is limited by the water inventory, which is many times larger than LWRs proportional to power rating, particularly when the shield tank inventory is included. It is also worth noting that the calandria itself is at STP, typically about 70 C. In short, there’s an enormous amount of cold water that a reactor has to boil off under accident conditions for any escape of radiation out of the fuel. What is agreed generally by the safety experts in the industry is that CANDU has about an order of magnitude less probability of radiation release to the environment than any other reactor type. It’s overkill in a sense, because the prospect of significant radiation release from modern reactors of any kind is trivial, as the Kashiwazaki-Kariwa earthquake two years ago demonstrated.
With respect to plutonium, yes CANDU produces lots of it. However, this is somewhat misleading. Because of its neutron efficiency, most of it is consumed by the reactor during normal operation. What remains is mostly higher 240, 241 and 242. Pu239 composes much less than half of the residual plutonium in the spent fuel, making it useless for weapons purposes. Also remember, reactor fuel is uranium and plutonium oxide, not pure uranium and plutonium.
Roger, surely even you can tell the difference between a loan guarantee and a subsidy. What you’re dodging around is the fact that all energy industries receive some form of government support, either direct subsidy, tax incentives or things like financing instruments. What matters is what is the return on the investment. In the case of nuclear, like tax incentives for oil and gas drilling, the energy production return is huge. In the case of renewables, the return is dismal.
Roger,
A loan guarantee does not cost a thing unless the loan is defaulted on. Given that the reason that nuclear power plants cost so much in the ’70s was a combination of high interest rates and environmentalist activism which greatly increased the amount of time that it took to get a nuclear plant up and running forcing the power company to take out more debt to finance the interest expense on their construction project long before they are able to produce any product to sell.
Shoreham is the most infamous example of perfectly good nuclear power generators being run out of business because of construction delays caused directly by activists.
By offering loan guarantees it lowers the interest rate that the nuclear companies have to pay, which lowers the expense of construction a nuclear powered generator. The construction cost is the biggest expense in building a nuclear power plant, so by lowering the expense of construction, the savings are passed on to ratepayers.
Difference between nuclear and wind or solar is that nuclear power could exist alone without the aid of wind or solar, but wind and solar could not exist without coal, nuclear or some huge hydro-electric dam. People do not like coal powered generators for various reasons but coal is not going to be replaced by any wind farm, only nuclear energy has the potential to replace coal.
Assuming that CO2 does cause Global Warming, which the politicians and fruitcakes are constantly telling us, the only option for a future energy needs is nuclear power. There are no “Alternatives” to a base load generator unless we want to go back to the 19th century.
Personally, I do not care. We have a coal plant here and I have never noticed the thing. The lights stay on and the system seems to work. If it ain’t broke, why fix it?
Johnnyb,
Moreover, the government often charges for offering loan guarantees. This is typical in the case of export credit agencies which provide either loans or loan guarantees for exporters developing power plants offshore in other countries. In fact, in the case of reactor sales, the revenues to government from the loan interest and loan guarantees have often exceeded the government net revenues from the sale of the reactor itself.
Fact is, most government owned export credit agencies (EximBank being something of an exception) are in business to generate a profit.
Fact is, nuclear power is necessary even without phony global warming excuses. 200 plus reactors in China and India in planning stages testifies to this. Why? Coal transport costs are prohibitive at the volumes required, and they don’t have the California option – namely foisting your power production requirements on someone else. For all of Roger’s hand-waving, it’s always interesting to note that the world doesn’t agree with him at all. Nations such as China and India who need lots of electricity aren’t wasting any significant effort on any of his remedies; they’re building coal and nuclear. What do you suppose they know that Roger doesn’t? After all, it’s their money, effort and time.
Oh yeah, a little thing called facts and reality, not green fantasies.
Colin (08:53:36) “What matters is what is the return on the investment.”
Please could you comment on this note to Roger?:
“Roger; I make a 1GW set capable of generating an income stream of $440m pa at 5c/kWh. Say on your numbers $10bn build (sounds high cf europe no.s which I think were about £3bn for 1.6GW?) gives 23years simple case payback? Without build time inc! How long do they run for? 46 years for 100% ROCE? 1.5% compound? What’s inflation at? (ahem) I know its amicky mouse example but it seems there must be some state money coming in here to make it worthwhile? Please check the figures – could have missed some 10^3!!”
also re:CANDU –
“However, its greater capital cost is offset by its lower fuel costs; no enrichment of fuel and no conversions steps to and from UF6.”
– please do you have any details on annual fuel costs for a CANDU assumed to be runing at 100% capacity? Thanks in advance.
Roger Sowell (08:07:26) :
Loan guarantees are one thing. The direct subsidies for wind and solar are much worse. Much, much, worse.
It is all part of The Great Leap Backwards
Roger,
Victoria is NOT the site of the South Texas Nuclear Plant. That plant is in Wadsworth which is about eighty miles from Victoria, Texas.
I’m not sure why you’re calling it “infamous” since it has operated for many years flawlessly. I do know that there were terrible construction delays because of a critical shortage of engineers before and during it’s construction. The construction should never have begun with less than half of the construction documents completed and no interference studies done.
I AM hoping that the nuclear plants will be built here in Victoria but I’m not holding my breath. I believe this administration will not approve anything that makes this much sense.
Mike Bryant, (13:34:29) :
You are so right that the STNP is not actually in Victoria, but I was following the wording from the article I cited. It may be that not everybody is up on the small towns in Texas, like you (and me). I lived there for my first 35 years.
My “infamous” reference is to the design/construction fiasco, not the subsequent operation. It does operate pretty well, actually. So far. 😉
The fiasco included design blunders and construction screwups that resulted in Brown and Root (predecessor to KBR) being kicked off the job, then Bechtel and Ebasco brought in to correct things and finish the plant. The delays caused quite a bit of heartburn for the city of Austin, which had their money sunk into the project, but no power when they needed it due to the seemingly interminable delays. They were scrambling to keep the lights on. It will be a cold day in a very hot place before Austin goes down that road again.
There were lawsuits filed all around, and rightfully so. What a mess.
As to new nuclear plants, very recently (maybe yesterday?) a Republican is now calling for 100 new reactors in the next 20 years in the U.S., with government guarantees to make it happen. Probably just grandstanding for his constituents and to make a headline, given the relatively few Republicans in both houses of Congress at the moment, and the Administration’s views on the matter.
@slowtofollow (11:57:19) :
You might be interested in the Finnish experience (read, fiasco) with their French-designed plant, also the Flamanville (FR) site is having troubles, see:
http://energyguysmusings.blogspot.com/2009/02/nuclear-plant-delayed-finland.html
In Finland, both the contractor and owner are reportedly filing arbitration claims against each other. That does not appear to be a happy job-site.
Yes, I agree that nuclear is needed in the future with or without phony global warming. I do wonder if Roger understands that it is an either/or proposition. Either we build coal plants or we build nuclear plants OR we learn to live without electricity, there are no “alternatives.”
Johnnyb (14:35:47):
You say there are no alternatives. Are we to dismiss, then, all those natural-gas fired power plants that presently produce around 20 percent of all power in the U.S. as phantoms, as mere hand-waving?
Also, all those hydroelectric plants with huge lakes behind them are also phantoms, more hand-waving? (Bonneville, Hoover Dam, Glen Canyon Dam, TVA dams, Three Gorges Dam in China, and many others around the world)
How about all those geothermal plants that reliably produce 5 percent of the power in California; are these just a gleam in an engineer’s eye? I am presently holding in my hands a report from Geothermal Bulletin, published by Geothermal Resources Council, May/June 2006, pg 90, that shows 24 countries having geothermal power plants in 2005, with an aggregate capacity of 8,933 MWe, from which they generated 56,786 GWh/y. That is certainly a very small percentage of all the power produced in the world, (less than 1 percent), yet it is there.
Are you certain that our only choices are coal or nuclear, and nothing more?
> There’s even LESS extractable uranium than oil.
> You may have overlooked the spike in yellowcake prices before the bust. Part was
> due to speculation, but another part was due to the limited amount of uranium that
> is easily mined. Seawater extraction talk is like fusion talk – hype and hope, but not
> much reality. And nuclear darlings like France hide the true costs of nuclear deep in
> secret government financing while shipping waste to places like Kazakhstan.
Spoken like a true person who doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about. The reason that Uranium prices are so easily manipulated is because there is so little of it – but even with the manipulation, the cents/kilowatt hour that was added to the cost of electricity was minimal. Uranium is approximately 1/10th the price of coal – it would have to be 400 dollars/kg to be the same as 20 dollars/ton of coal.
At this price, there are millions of tons of uranium available for mining. Combined with thorium or breeder reactors, we could go for thousands of years on nuclear alone, not even counting the possibility of alternative fusion sources (like the IEC engine, or helion, or focus fusion, or general fusion)
Although I have worked in the nuclear industry on and off all my life I am not convinced that it makes economic sense, at least in the UK at the moment.
Coal is cheap and abundant and if you don’t care about CO2, and I don’t, you have a well proven system albeit coal fired plant is expensive.
Natural gas plant is much cheaper to build than coal and the fuel even cheaper but the cost of shipping the fuel as LNG expensive in capital investment. In the USA which has huge gas reserves and can build pipelines, also expensive, I would think this was the cheapest way to go for the next thirty years anyway.
And of course if you have the gas distribution infrastructure, which the Uk has, you can move to small scale CHP systems and adapt them to supply the grid as well. Again the UK has a very sophisticated grid.
So for the UK this is an ideal solution which is cheap to build, makes the best of the fuel and ofers the flexibility with modern control systems to meet variation in demand. And supply can be met with LNG.
Nuclear fission maybe in the long term but IMHO you do not rush to use a well proven but aged technology when a cheaper, newer and better one is at hand and is well proven too. You use that and invest modest sums to see whether the new nuclear tehnology can be turned into a commercially practical solution: and if it can then decisions can be made.
Kindest Regards
Good post, a jones. I think nuclear would be very inexpensive if there were not so much opposition. When you’re talking about tying up several $billion, while every possible step is litigated by people with nothing to lose, it’s no wonder that nuke plants are expensive.
But if 20 – 30 nuke plants per year were built on a standard design, costs would plummet due to economies of scale. Nuclear energy isn’t magic. It’s just another way to extract energy. Pretty much unlimited energy, at that.
But the eco-terrorists will fight nuclear energy every step of the way, making energy much more expensive for the consumer.
It’s risky making predictions. I almost never do it because of Niels Bohr’s and Yogi Berra’s dictum: “Prediction is hard, especially about the future.”
But I’ll risk it here: electricity brownouts and blackouts will become more common. And it will be 100% the fault of the frightened eco-Luddites and their enablers, who will blame everyone but themselves.
“”” Colin (08:47:16) :
To EM Smith @ur momisugly 11:59
Some reasonable statements about CANDU but some inaccuracies as well. CANDU is not necessarily a lower cost reactor than LWRs. Because it uses natural uranium fuel, it is a physically larger reactor with a much lower neutron flux density. It tends to be more stable than LWRs because a much larger proportion of the total core is required for a self-sustaining reaction. However, its greater capital cost is offset by its lower fuel costs; no enrichment of fuel and no conversions steps to and from UF6.
Its void coefficient tends to be at least one to two orders of magnitude smaller than any LWR, meaning that its behaviour is highly predictable under operating conditions.
Using heavy water moderator means that CANDU has slower neutrons and more efficient use of them. The fuel result is that CANDU gets about 30% more energy out of a ton of uranium fuel than any LWR. So, you have higher construction costs, and lower fuel costs. “””
Colin,
Can you steer us to a definitive treatise on CANDU ? When I was in School, CANDU was a gleam in somebody’s eye; but I do remember that it was supposed to have a number of good features; and from what you have said here; it sounds like it does.
I think the natural Uranium usage is a rather valuable feature, eliminating all manner of expensive, and somewhat potentially hazardous paraphernalia like centrifuges.
I nearly went the nuke direction career wise; and it would be nice to get back up to date on where the technology has gone.
George
a jones and smokey above – yes, good points. I’d like to flag up the paper the UK National Grid have done on the possibilites for gas supply from waste:
http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonlyres/9122AEBA-5E50-43CA-81E5-8FD98C2CA4EC/32182/renewablegasWPfinal1.pdf
Heat is a big energy req. (approx 50% of UK energy OTTOMH) and there is a lot to be done on this esp. re: reducing waste.
Re: nuclear – report from Poyry highlighted approx 13GWe potential from industrial CHP:
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/files/pdfs/climate/securingpower0708.pdf
About 8 nuclear euro spec installations worth of elec at a fraction of the cost seems like a good deal to me. Ironically at Pembroke there is a scheme on the stocks for 2GWe of CCGT!
And what about coal? Ratcliffe on Soar still going strong according to EON with a refurb and flue treatment retrofit….:
http://www.eon-uk.com/generation/ratcliffe.aspx
At the moment I don’t see how the case for nuclear stacks up. Maybe if it could be built for 25% it would make some sense (?) but IMO at the moment it needs hidden subsidy to make it “viable”.