
This essay below from Ralph Ellis was posted in comments a couple of days ago, and I decided to promote it to a full post.
For the record, let me say that I support some of the renewable energy ideas, even putting money where my mouth is, putting solar on my own home and a local school. However, neither project would have been possible without state subsidies. For renewable energy to work in our economy, it must move past the government subsidy stage and become more efficient. It took over a hundred years t create our current energy infrastructure, anyone who believes we can completely rebuild it with the current crop of renewable energy technologies is not realistic. – Anthony
Renewable energy – our downfall? By Ralph Ellis
The government, under pressure from a disparate confederation of environmentalists and greens, have agreed to press ahead with a host of renewable energy sources, including wind, tidal and wave power. Yet, despite the vast sums of public money that will be allocated to these projects and the fundamental enormity of the decisions that have been made, there has been very little in the way of open debate on the subject. Like many aspects of today’s governmental system, the powers that be appear to have made a decision about future energy production based upon image, spin and the number of votes the policy will capture, while ignoring the basic truths and science that should be the foundation-stone of any policy. Nobody has even debated the absolutely fundamental question of whether any of these energy generation systems actually work. The media’s reaction to this steamrollered, image-based decision-making process has been muted to the point of being inaudible, and I can only assume that either very few in the media have any grasp of the calamitous implications of the government’s policy, or they are cowering behind their desks for fear of losing their jobs.
So why, then, do I consider renewable energy to be a danger to the entire nation, both economically and socially? This is, after all, ‘free energy’, and what can be the problem with a free resource? Well, as readers will probably be fully aware, no resource is free even if it appears to be so, and this is the first of the many lies about renewable energy that have been peddled by industry spokesmen and government ministers. Oil is not free, despite it just sitting in the ground; water is not free, despite it falling from the sky; nuclear power is not free, despite the raw materials being ridiculously cheap, and neither is any renewable energy resource ‘free’. In fact, the conversion process from ‘free’ renewable energy to usable grid electricity is remarkably expensive and its enormous costs are being subsidised by the consumer. In the UK, this subsidy is achieved through Renewables Obligation Certificates, the cost of which are eventually passed onto the consumer. In 2006 the cost to consumers was £600 million, and this is predicted to rise to £3 billion in 2020. 1 That is about £200 per household per annum, on top of current energy bills, for the privilege of using of ‘free’ energy.
Now one might argue that that is not very much money to demand from the public, given the advertised prospect of clean, renewable energy that will fuel our homes and our economy for the next few generations. Power at the press of a button, and not a drop of noxious emissions of any nature in sight – just an array of perfectly silent, gently rotating wind-turbines stretching towards the horizon – it is dream-world picture direct from the cover issue of an environmentalist magazine, and the answer to a politician’s prayers. In one master-stroke the environment is magically healed, and votes are captured by the million – roll on the next election.
However, it is my belief that this sublime day-dream actually holds the seeds for our economic decline and for social disorder on an unprecedented scale. Why? Because no technical and industrial society can maintain itself on unreliable and intermittent power supplies. In 2003 there were six major electrical blackouts across the world, and the American Northeast blackout of August 14th was typical of these. The outage started in Ohio, when some power lines touched some trees and took out the Eastlake power station, but the subsequent cascade failure took out 256 power stations within one hour.
The entire Northeast was down onto emergency electrical supplies, and the result was social and economic chaos. Nothing, in our integrated and automated world, works without electricity. Transport came to a grinding halt. Aircraft were grounded, trains halted and road traffic was at a standstill, due to a lack of traffic lights and fuel. Water supplies were severely disrupted, as were telecommunications, while buildings had to be evacuated due to a lack of fire detection and suppression systems. Without any available transport, many commuters were forced to sleep in offices or in Central Park, and while the summer temperatures made this an office-adventure to remember, had this been winter the results of this electrical failure could have been catastrophic.
This is what happens to a major technical civilisation when its life-blood, its electrical supply, is turned off. Chaos looms, people die, production ceases, life is put on hold. Yet this was just a once-in-a-decade event, a memorable occasion to laugh about over dinner-parties for many years to come, but just imagine what would happen to a society where this happened every week, or if the power was cut for a whole fortnight or more. Now things are getting serious. Without transport, refrigeration, computers and key workers, food production and distribution would cease. Sleeping in Central Park on a balmy summer’s night is a memorable inconvenience, whereas fifty million empty bellies is getting very serious indeed. In fact, it is a recipe for violence and civil unrest.
But what has all this doom and gloom got to do with the government’s drive for renewable energy, you might ask? Well, the entire problem with renewables – almost all renewables – is that they are dangerously intermittent power sources.
Perhaps the first renewable source we should discuss is tidal power. Unfortunately, while tidal power initially looks like a dream power source of cheap, renewable energy, it suffers from massive variability in supply. The energy that it produces is tidal, and the tides are, of course, linked to the orbit of the Moon, with there being about two tides every day. This sinusoidal tidal pattern produces four slack periods during each day when the tide is turning, either at high tide or at low tide, and during these slack periods the tidal power system will not generate any electricity at all. Unfortunately, the energy that is produced is therefore delivered at set periods of the day which are connected to the orbit of the Moon, rather than our daily lives, and so the electricity produced is in no way synchronised with the electrical demand cycle. If these slack periods coincide with the 7-am and 7-pm peak demands for electricity, as they will several times a month, then the whole generating system is next to useless.
Since the energy produced earlier in the day cannot be stored, as will be explained later, extra generating capacity will have to be brought on-line to cover the deficiency. This means that for every tidal system installed, a conventional power station will have to be either built or retained to ensure continuity of energy supply. But this power station will have to be up and running all the time, what is known in the industry as ’spinning-reserve’, as it takes up to 12 hours to bring a power station on-line from a cold start-up. Thus if we are to maintain continuity of supply, this wonderful ‘free-energy’ tidal source actually results in twice the cost and saves very little in the way of hydrocarbon fuels. So, unless we are prepared to accept rolling power cuts across the country, which would result in the same chaos as the Northeast blackout, it is unlikely that we could ever successfully integrate large tidal power systems into the National Grid.
While tidal power may be predictably intermittent, wind power is even more problematical. Recent EU directives have stipulated that some 40% of electricity should be powered from renewable resources by 2020. If this were to be predominantly produced from wind turbines, as is likely, then we would need some 30 gigawatts (gw) of wind generating capacity. To put that figure in perspective, the UK currently has about 0.5 gw of wind capacity. However, that is not the full story, for UK wind turbines are only currently delivering about 25% of installed capacity, due to wind fluctuations and maintenance issues. That means we actually need some 120 gw of installed wind generation capacity to cover just 40% of total UK electrical demand. If the turbines being constructed average 2 mw rated capacity, then we shall need some 60,000 wind turbines to be installed over the next twelve years. And where shall we erect all those? – Certainly Not In My Back Yard.
But building thousands of wind turbines still does not resolve the fundamental problem, for the real problem here is the enormous scale of wind variability. I saw a wind-power spokesman the other week on the flagship BBC Hardtalk series, who claimed that the number of days without wind power in the UK were as rare as hen’s teeth – a comment that went totally unchallenged. Well all I can say, is that the hens in the UK must look like a Tyrannosaurus Rex.
The truth of the matter is that there are numerous days without significant winds across the UK, and when those conditions occur it doesn’t matter how much installed generating capacity we have, for it all goes off-line. A report from Denmark 2 indicates that the Danish ‘wind carpet’, which is the largest array of wind turbines in Europe, generated less than 1% of installed power on 54 days during 2002. That is more than one day every week of the year without electrical power. However, if we broaden the definition of ‘without power’ slightly, the same Danish ‘wind carpet’ generated less than 10% of installed capacity for some 16 weeks during 2003. Yet Denmark has the same kind of northerly, maritime weather systems as does the UK. Thus the wind-generation industry is lying to us, once more, for a ‘wind carpet’ that generates less than 10% of installed capacity it next to useless, for the national electrical grid will never cope with such a massive reduction in power supply. In fact, wind generation is so useless, that Denmark, Europe’s largest wind generating nation by far, has never used any of its wind-generated electricity – because it is too variable. It is almost impossible to integrate wind power into a normal generating grid, and so Denmark has merely exported its variable wind supplies to Norway and Sweden. 3 These nations can cope with these electrical fluctuations because of their abundance of hydro-electric power, which can be turned on and off quite rapidly, unlike most other generating systems.
This revelation, that wind power is totally unusable, brings us onto the other great lie of renewable energy proponents – the lie that renewable power can somehow be stored to cope with power outages. The first of these miraculous energy storage facilities, that is said to come to the aid of the thousands of wind-turbines that lie motionless across the entire nation, is the pumped water storage system. However, this claim is utter nonsense, and for the following reasons:
a. Our present pumped storage systems are already fully utilized in overcoming variability in electrical DEMAND, and so they have absolutely no extra capacity for overcoming variability in SUPPLY due to the unreliable wind and tidal generation systems.
b. Pumped storage systems currently only supply a very small percentage of the grid (about 5%) for just a few hours, while wind generation systems can go off-line for days or weeks at a time, as the Danish generation report clearly demonstrates. To put this argument into figures, the Dinorwig power storage system, the largest in the UK, can provide 5% of the UK’s power generation requirements (2.9 gw) for up to 5 hours before it runs out of water. (Thus the total capacity of Dinorwig is 14.5 gwh). If the UK was entirely dependent on wind power, a wind outage lasting just two days would require 140 storage stations with the same generating capacity as Dinorwig to maintain normal power supplies (assuming average UK demand of 1,000 gwh/day). As the Danish report confirms, power outages lasting a week or more are the norm, rather than the exception, and so if the UK generated a significant proportion of our electrical capacity from wind-turbines, as the EU has argued, the lights and heating systems would be going out, the computers going down and transport systems failing all over the country.
c. Pumped storage systems are not only hugely expensive to construct, the topography of Britain ensures that very few sites are available, and so we will never be able to store significant amounts of our energy requirements. These storage systems also tend to be situated in areas of outstanding natural beauty, and so – you have guessed it – the Greens oppose the very storage system they are promoting.
The same kind of argument can be sustained for flywheel energy storage, compressed air storage, battery storage and hydrogen storage – for each and every one of these systems is highly complex, very expensive, hugely inefficient and limited in capacity. The much hyped ‘Hydrogen Economy’ is one of these technological cul-de-sacs. It should be stated from the outset that hydrogen is not an energy source, but an energy storage system – a ‘battery’. The hydrogen has to be created before it is used, and it merely stores the energy that is flowing through the normal electrical grid. Unfortunately for the proponents of this clean ‘energy system’, hydrogen powered vehicles and generators are only about 5% efficient. A huge amount of energy is wasted in the production, liquification and storage of the hydrogen, and so hydrogen will not be propelling our cars, nor will it be storing energy for when the wind stops blowing. In addition, hydrogen storage vessels are highly flammable and potentially explosive, and I for one would rather have a nuclear power station on my doorstep than a hydrogen facility. However, the final unsayable truth about hydrogen powered vehicles (and electric vehicles) is that we would have to double or treble the number of power stations to cope with this electrical demand. The fact that many cars would recharge overnight would be useful in evening out electrical demand, but the number of power stations in the UK would at least double. Now what would the Greens have to say about that?
In short, it would appear that some of the proponents of these storage systems simply have no concept of the huge amounts of energy that a nation like Britain uses within a normal week. There is no energy system available that can remotely be expected to replace renewable energy resources, while they lie dormant for weeks on end. These and other delusions that are being being peddled by renewables proponents are downright dangerous, as they give ignorant ministers in government the impression that we can maintain this nation on renewable energy supplies. But nothing could be further from the truth, and the 2003 blackouts demonstrate the seriousness of the consequences if we do run out of electrical power.
Nuclear
But if the large-scale use of renewable energy systems is utterly impractical, there has to be a solution to our energy supply problems; because even in the short term our dependance on foreign oil and gas places us at the mercy of oil and gas owning despots, who will seek to gain every leverage possible over us. Look at the current situation in the Middle East and Russia and multiply that by ten, and you have some idea of our future political situation if we become solely dependent on foreign energy supplies.
In addition to this – for every year we delay in getting reliable and internally sourced energy supplies, millions of tonnes of a valuable mineral resources are literally going up in smoke. Nearly everything we need in our modern world needs oil as a raw material to make it – no oil supplies not only means no energy, but also no raw materials too. When the last barrel of oil comes out of the ground – and if alternate energy provisions are not already in place – human civilization as we know it will cease to exist. That is neither an exaggeration nor a joke, for absolutely nothing in our modern world will work without adequate energy supplies and petrochemical raw materials to make the things we so often take for granted.
What ever you may think about the technology, the ONLY reliable answer to our energy supply and global warming problems for the foreseeable future is going to be nuclear power (either fission or fusion). Ok, so nuclear power has got a bad name through Chernobyl and a few other incidents, but the Chernobyl plant in particular should never have been allowed in the first place. The RBMK design was (and still is) a rudimentary graphite moderated steam cooled plant with no containment vessel – indeed, it was no better that the original ‘graphite pile’ in the Manhattan Project (circa 1943). Remember that graphite and steam are an explosive combination if they get hot enough, and that’s exactly what happened at Chernobyl (this was NOT a ‘nuclear’ explosion). This arrangement should never have been allowed at the design stage, which is why the British AGRs (Advanced Gas Reactors) used an inert gas coolant. In addition, both the AGR and the the USAs PWRs (Pressurized Water Reactors) are naturally fission-stable, and their very nature will resist and counter a runaway thermic event like that which occurred at Chernobyl.
While the early designs of nuclear power stations have highlighted the problems that poor design or construction can pose, our design and technological capability has moved on in great strides. The Russian RBMKs are the equivalent of a model T Ford, the British AGRs represent Morris Minor technology from the ’60s, but we are now capable of producing Bugattis and Ferraris – which provide a quantum leap in terms of safety and efficiency. The point is that there are methods of reducing nuclear risks if we put our minds to it, and the latest design from Westinghouse – the AP1000 – will be able to deliver ten times the efficiency of the reactors in current use. (Which makes it odd that the UK government have just sold Westinghouse to Toshiba of Japan, just as orders for new power stations are about to be signed.)
Therefore, we could supply Britain’s entire current and future energy requirements with nuclear power, while only using the same amount of nuclear material that is in circulation today (and which produces just 20% of our needs). Remember also that nuclear power is non-polluting in terms of greenhouse gasses, acid rain and other noxious emissions, and thus all of the reductions that we aspire to make in these pollutants could be achieved in a stroke if we turned to nuclear power.
And when it comes to nuclear safety issues, let us not forget that thousands of people in ships and submarines live in close proximity to nuclear plants with no ill-effects. Also remember that while nuclear power has acquired a bad name, courtesy of some sections of the media, far more ecological damage has been done and many more people have died though oil and coal extraction, over the past decades, than in nuclear power incidents. Remember Piper Alpha, Aberfan, Torry Canyon, Exxon Valdes, etc: etc:? The list is almost endless, especially if one includes all the coal-pit disasters in Russia and China, from which much of our energy, in terms of finished products, is now sourced. If a nuclear power station had killed a whole school full of children the environmentalists would never let us forget it, but because it was the result of the coal industry they let the memory fade. If 6,000 workers were killed every year in the nuclear industry Greenpeace would go ballistic, but because these are coal mining deaths in China they are ignored. Why do some people exhibit these double standards? What is it about technical progress that they so despise? In some respects, some of these anti-nuclear demonstrators appear to be portraying themselves as the world’s very own technological Taliban, and in this guise they must be vigorously opposed.
However, it should be borne in mind that fission power is only a temporary stop-gap that will maintain our economy and civilisation over the next century until something better comes along. Nuclear fusion may well be that brighter future, but for all the reasons already given we need a solution now, not in 30 year’s time. Nuclear fission will provide a stop-gap for that vital century, but fission power on its own is a non-renewable energy resource. The way forward has to be fast-breeder fission, where the nuclear core creates its own fuel supply, a technique that has already been demonstrated and perfected. This energy source would provide the world with 1,000 years of energy, a large enough stop-gap to allow all kinds of new exotic energy sources to be discovered and exploited.
We have about 30 or so years before the shortage of oil becomes acute and our economies and societies begin to falter, and that is not very much time in which to alter our entire energy production industry. It is like relying on the Victorians to plan ahead and ensure that we still had a viable civilisation in the 1930s. And while the Victorians were both successful and resourceful, history demonstrates that new sources of raw materials were never actively planned until the old sources were in desperately short supply or worked-out completely. However, the introduction of a new, nationwide power generating system is an extremely long-term investment, and if we are to make this change without a dramatic interruption to our energy supplies (and our society) we need foresight, vision and a quick decision. What we need is a tough, educated, talented, rational leader to take a difficult but responsible decision to dramatically increase our nuclear energy production capability. However, what we have in the UK is Gordon Brown!
Ralph Ellis
June 2004
1. David Derbyshire, Daily Mail 5th Feb 2008.
2 & 3 Hugh Sharman, Why wind power works in Denmark.
Well there’s avery simple way to look at any “alternative energy” system.
You tell me what your favorite energy plant is; lets say coal for example. How many gigaWatt’s operating power do you want lets say 1gW.
So I’ll build you your 1gW coal plant, and give it to you for free; so please don’t anybody mention economics; I just solved that problem for you. What if I also give you a mountain of coal, say enough for 100 TWatt-hrs of energy production.
Now after we get the preliminary paperwork taken care of, you can sell your power for whatever the market will give you and make yourself a fortune; how cool is that ?
Oh the paperwork ! I’m not really as altruistic as I may have seemed at first; I too would like to get filthy rich; so here’s what I want you to do for me; a sort of thank you gift for the nifty coal plant I gave you and the mountain of coal.
Before you can sell some power to get rich, I want you to build me a duplicate of the plant I just gave you; and replace my mountain of coal that I gave you.
What you have to work with; and ALL that you have to work with, is the energy that is coming out of your plant; plus all the raw materials in the universe in their natural state.
So you are going to need steel and concrete and other construction materials; those aren’t available anywhere but in the ground, so you will have toi mine them and refine them. Aren’t any tractors or bulldozers available for you to do that; you are going to have to build those too, since all the existing ones are in use by other people. You are going to need people to do all this work. Everybody is busy doing some other job; you’ll have to get someother people from somewhere else and train them and house them and their kids, and feed and clothe them; educate the kids.
Well you get the idea; your energy source that I gave you has to do everything required to replicate the system, and then if you have any energy or coal left over, you can sell that at market prices. I realize that you are only going to need the bulldozers etc and some of the people for how long it takes to duplicate the system; so you only have to cover the energy capital and expenses during that period.
Most so-called alternative energy “sources” fail this test; they cannot duplicate themselves; so they actually are energy wasting schemes, not energy producing schemes; and they need to be nipped in the bud before precious resources are wasted on a pig in a poke.
One final comment. Wind/biomass/hydroelectric etc are all “Solar”, just like PEV or solar thermal steam turbine systems. They are all limited by the 168 W/m^2 global average solar energy insolation.
One thing is for sure; starting from the fig trees and the gathering monkeys; we somehow pulled oursleves up by our own bootlaces to where we are today; and mostly it was done with stored chemical or nuclear energy. We don’t have any evidence that we could get here without the stored energy; which means we don’t have any evidence that where we are is even sustainable by renewable green energy.
So those who want to eradicate fossil and nuclear stored energy sources; and rely solely on renewables at 168 w/m^2, are living in a fantasy land.
George
ralph ellis (14:01:25) :
I understood that it was the Atlantic Conveyor that took Gulf Stream heat to the far north and flowed back down south at lower levels in the oceans. Do you really want to stop that flow, and possibly prevent peta-watts of energy from reaching the UK from the tropics?
You play with Mother Nature at your peril.
Yet when I mentioned thr japanese idea for getting uranium from seawater using a polymer you said no problem!
To satisfy the French [current nuclear requirement] will require 2.1*10^6 tonnes of polymer.
sea water has 3*10^-3 gms uranium in 1 cu metre so the polymer will need to see 4*10^12 cu metresof fresh sea water over the year.
The polymer will therfore have to be sunk into a deep water current and all 2 million tonnes dragged up from many meters down.
Expanding this to the world:
World electrical requirement 16,830,000,000MWh
France electrical requirements 451,500,000MWh
of which nuclear = 78% ==352,170,000MWh
this requires 2.1Mtonnes of polymer
The world requirement is therefore for 48Mtonnes of polymer to extract uranium from sea water. This would need to be placed in a/many strong natural currents. As you said Mr. Ellis “You play with Mother Nature at your peril”
ralph ellis (00:50:05) : Anyone who has lived in the UK for a few years would not dream of using solar power here. You could try, but it is a great way to make a small fortune (but only if you start with a large fortune).
Reminds me of when my mom took a trip “home” in July. Upon return (having lived in California for 18 years I guess memory fades…) she announced annoyance at the rain on the 4th of July but did say “We were there for Summer this time, July 18th it was.” … 😉
There are some places where solar is just incredibly stupid. Places that are overcast and raining any / all days of the year are among them. My red-head transparent skin gene is an adaptation to get Vitamin D from almost no sunlight. Think about it…
Solar is great anywhere that folks naturally had brown or black skin. It is not so usable where the folks are white skinned historically. It is darned near useless anywhere redheads were the dominant phenotype… (This rule does not hold for places like Australia, Texas and California where a whole herd of us have moved in despite the skin cancer “issue”… we’re talking pre-modern age population distributions…)
Now if you can ever develop cloud and fog power … 8-}
Pofarmer (22:11:16) : Better buy your backup generators now.
Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately…) I already have TWO of them from the last time the “Government decided to help” with my energy choices.
At that time they demanded that the energy companies have NO generating capacity, NO long term contracts, and buy ALL electricity on the spot market from moment to moment… Yeah, mini-bar prices and buying a banquet for 20 million off the appetizer menu. Worked about as well as it sounds…
Now they are “helping” by demanding that we not use the major base load low cost reliable sources of energy. Yeah, that’s the ticket…
Any wonder I’m not so keen on the government running businesses?
So yeah, I’m prepared. I did take out all the mini-UPSs, but I can put them back (had one in each room for the electronics, clocks, and one light – gave me time to start the generator and swap over to it without resetting clocks or interrupting the TV show… Yes, we had blackouts that often. Pretty much any day the temps were high and any time somebody didn’t make a spot buy Just In Time…) I probably ought to buy a couple of more cans of gas and make sure the Big Boy still starts.
We have a small one (Honda 1 kw – just love it. Size of an overnight bag, weight is near nothing. 56 db when running (quieter than people talking who run about 75 db). Runs forever on a quart or 2 of fuel (8 hours?) and my spouse can start it with a gentle pull. Enough to run the fridge (modest sized, efficient), entertainment cluster, and lights in each room of the house (compact fluorescent) along with the misc stuff like laptops, printers, etc. with some left over.
and…
We have a large one, the Big Boy. 4 kW continuous, 5+ kW surge. Briggs & Stratton. Noisy as all get out, but can run on darned near anything close to gasoline. Used for running the washer / dryer set and HV/AC plus any major power tools if needed – like the electric lawn mower. My spouse can not start it (and it’s a bit of work for me…) but it was darned cheap (I paid about $300 for it on clearance prior to the power “issues”…)
If I were doing it over again, I’d get the Honda 3 kw multifuel (gas propane natural gas) job with electric start and plumb it into the natural gas line. Then, if we had enough “issues” I’d install the battery box and inverter that I bought (but didn’t use since we changed governors…) and just run the house off storage and let the generator cope automagically with what charges the battery box; grid or it. (Need to buy an automatic power controller… no big, or just float charge the batteries from a grid charger and let the generator kick in if the power fails…)
Welcome to a day in the life in California…
(And they had to send a delegation to Nevada to find out why folks moved there… Can you say STABLE POWER from Hoover Dam?… and those nice nuke plants just outside Phoenix … and the coal slurry line that feeds the coal plant near Laughlin Nv. straight from the mine in another state, and…)
So yeah, I’m “prepared”. Need to make sure the Big Boy starts (haven’t run it in a year or two, but stored it dry.) and need to find where I put the (empty) battery box and inverter kit; but ready enough.
BTW, on one occasion I was involved with putting in computer rooms around here. On the large new Sun campus, whole buildings were being put on standby and cogen generators (about the size of 18 wheel truck boxes) sited next to the parking lots… so that the company could keep running even with the (frequent) rolling blackouts. It doesn’t take long for companies to figure out that relocating is cheaper than duplicating all the infrastructure that they can expect to be stable elsewhere…
I’d hoped all that was behind us now, but no…
ralph ellis (01:10:30) : So we come back to the same old problem. Renewables cannot provide base-load electrical supply, and so will only ever be the froth on the cappuccino. (All presentation, and no taste or substance.)
While I agree with much of your point vis the UK; your statement is just not true for the rest of the planet. And that’s a big place (so the less we use, the more fuel is available for you 😉
For example, the solar plant in the Mojave desert is almost exactly matched to the peak demand in California (both daily and seasonally) since that is from AC demand. We (California) can add a boat load of solar before there is any storage problem and in fact it reduces the storage problem we already have (freeing the pumped storage we have for use with wind, for example).
For the UK, your abundant WAVE (not tidal) power is available substantially year round and is, IIRC, stronger in winter when the large storms hundreds of miles away make the waves (even if you are under still air). Great for you, useless for Arizona 😎
That the UK is going for wind or solar makes no sense to me at all. Wave and geothermal ought to be good, though. I would also expect there to be somewhere with strong currents off shore where ocean current generators could provide base load year round (a system like this is proposed for the Gulf Stream off Florida). The UK ought to be able to put in a trash to Diesel facility (such as made by RTK Rentech) since I suspect you do have trash to dispose of..
Renewables are very usable, if custom choices are made for each location. They are incredibly dumb if used in a one-size-fits-all way. I also would not think of powering a country off of them without a decent chunk of nuke and coal for at least the next 2 or 3 decades as the markets sort it out.
Hey! why don’t we build a satellite that will follow the sun around the globe gathering energy 24/7. Then of course, we would need ships and trucks to follow it around on the earth transferring the energy to power plants. They, of course would use electricity to move themselves as they follow the satellite around. Oops! they would probably use up all the energy they collected! So, back to the drawing board. Hmmmmm!
ralph ellis (00:50:05) : Regards geothermal, yes we could get some residual heat here in the UK, but we have no obvious hot-spots that could be really useful.
There are two major kinds of geothermal. Large steam electric plants that need near volcanic heat; and ‘ground source heat pumps’ where you put the pipe in the dirt near the home and use the 56 F or so (15? C) as the heat source for a heat pump to warm the home (rather than below 0C air…)
The ground source heat pump ought to be a ‘feature’ (though they are ever more of a feature the further below 0C the air goes …)
Just as a heat pump is a more efficient home heater than burning the fuel directly, a ground source heat pump is even better. Using a cogenerator device to make heat and the electricity to then run a ground source heat pump is even better, but by that time you’re talking a lot of hardware…
Well, actually we do have one hot-spot, as the whole of the geological pillar that was left under Coventry is on fire and burning merrily (300m down). However, that is a coal fire so it hardly counts, and the result of years of mining around there. No matter how many shafts they block off, the fire still gets enough air to sustain itself.
I’ve wondered from time to time if anyone has ever tried a halon flood. You can make very dense halons that ought to stay below ground even if heated. The other thing I’ve thought about is borated water. (Plain water can undergo ‘water gas’ reactions in coal fires, making CO +H2 … not good. I suspect that a slurry of borate would prevent this.) It sure looks to me like a couple of hours with an extinguisher chemical engineer ought to find something interesting…
OK here’s the deal: If anyone wants to do this, I’m up for working in a new start-up dedicated to extinguishing coal fires for the CO2 credits. We get R&D funding from the AGW movement for a varieties of proposals to investigate {every known and a few unknown extinguisher formulas} and apply for patents on any that work in coal fires (process patents, if needed due to prior art). We then package the CO2 credits based on the projected CO2 output from the next 200 years of fire and sell them as each site is extinguished.
There’s a LOT of coal fires and a LOT of CO2 credits to be harvested…
I wonder if there is a Halon equivalent of a silicone oil… silicon backbone with oxidation inhibitor functional groups on it…
When looking at houses back in late 2001 we were pleasantly surprised to find the one we wanted had a 10kw propane generator (4 cyl) attached to the house. It’s in a small, insulated shed with it’s own exhaust pipe and vent for the radiator. It’s a small industrial model. I was told by one of the guys who services it that the City of Tacoma (WA) has the identical generator and relay panel as a backup foir their water treatment plant.
Apparently the elderly previous owners had some medical equipment that needed power 24/7. Out here on Whidbey Island wind storms can take out power for a day or two at a time. So the large propane tank (I think it’s 120 gallon, not sure) will last for weeks at constant usage. So if things really went to hell, we could save it and turn it on only for a short time every couple days as needed, probably last for months.
If anyone’s interested, here are pics of the generator.
http://whatcatastrophe.com/drupal/image/tid/22
bill (16:50:43) :
ralph ellis (14:01:25) :
Yet when I mentioned thr japanese idea for getting uranium from seawater using a polymer you said no problem!
Wasn’t him. It was me. I still say No Problem! (I’d say “Hell No” but that would probably get snipped…) 😎
[tedious pointless math with big numbers deleted]
The world requirement is therefore for 48Mtonnes of polymer to extract uranium from sea water.
Yup. No big. Look, you seem over impressed by big numbers. The world is a very big place. That’s 2% of present world polymer production for 24 years. (You are not thinking of building this out all at once are you? That would be silly. Not enough nuke plants yet and too much land sourced U to justify that. Heck, even 24 years is pushing it…) So polymer source is not an issue.
This would need to be placed in a/many strong natural currents. As you said Mr. Ellis “You play with Mother Nature at your peril”
Well, it actually can be placed in many slow natural currents or even modest tidal areas. It takes a year to soak out the U so you don’t exactly need a swift river here..
Now coast lines are fractal so this means they are theoretically infinite in length. The U.S. Coastline, for example, is estimated as being anywhere from about 9000 miles to 90,000 miles. Kind of unhelpful. Lets assume that we will simply take a straight line from one pole to the other next to the major continents. That’s about 12,000 miles one way one coast. I know it’s a way under estimate, but hey, that’s good, right?
Americas East, Americas West, Asia / Australia, Europe / Africa west, Africa east / India. I make that about 5 x 12,000 or 60,000 miles. Now again we’re way underestimating. No islands. No wiggling back and forth. Ignoring Antarctica. Ignoring all that open water with deep currents in all that 70% of water we’re ignoring. Probably a factor of 10. But hey, I’ll spot you an order of magnitude…
Divide your tons by those miles and you get 800 tons / mile or about 7 ft per ton. Given their demo device was, IIRC, about 350 kg, and was 8 m wide, we need to make it about 3 times that size, call it 24 m to get a ton. Now this 24 m wide blanket needs to fit in that 7 ft, but was also 8 m thick, so we need about 3 x as much per foot. Lets call it 75 m. The other dimension was 30 m again IIRC, so were talking about a 75 m wide, 30 m tall band.
Now last time I looked, a 75 m wide stripe off shore was not very big.
Last time I was in the ocean, 30 m (about 100 ft) of depth was barely getting your scuba gear wet.
So this is not exactly going to bring the ocean to a halt…
(Oh, and remember that the ‘blanket’ had lots of open space in it to let the water through relatively unhindered… most of that blanket is empty space…)
Now I have no expectation that we would actually do this. It’s a “thought experiment”. There will undoubtedly be better engineering solutions than actually putting a bow on the whole planet. (Personally, I’d expect OTEC to be used to provide free pumped water – Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion) and I’d expect that a longer ribbon run deeper would be used. A continuous belt so the lift energy on one side is offset by the submergence on the other. And finally, I don’t think we’ll actually power the whole planet this way for about 100,000 years or more due to all the U and Th available on land and the use of advanced reactors that have a 300% to 400% better fuel efficiency (but hey, I’ll spot you a 4x for that too…). I’m just showing that its possible in a worst case. And it is.
The purpose of this thought experiment is just to show how puny the impact would be on the ocean currents. Miles wide and thousands of feet deep ocean flows will not be upset by a few dozen feet wide and deep ribbon that is mostly empty space.
Even if the numbers are big.
E.M.Smith (20:08:28) :That’s 2% of present world polymer production for 24 years.
Opps. My bad. That ought to be 1% of production. But heck, I’ll spot you a double on the polymer too…
To put things in perspective on the size of the polymer and it’s impact on the ocean in an ocean uranium system, consider oil. Oil and plastic are nearly the same density. Close enough for one or two digits of precision. So what if all that polymer were put in oil tankers?
A typical ULCC class tanker carries 500,000 Dead Weight Tons. So 2 of them make a million tons. That means we’re talking about 100 tankers worth of ‘product’. ( 48 x 2 = 96, but I’ll spot you a couple..)
How does this 48 m DWT stack up to oil?
We presently have 960 million DWT of tankers (per wiki ) so we’re talking about roughly 1/20 th the size of the present oil tanker fleet. Each year we shove, roughly, 2.4 BILLION tons of oil through the ocean in tankers (multiple trips) using large engines and giant screws to stir up the water.
The ocean doesn’t notice.
So no, bill, putting a plastic blankey in the water is not going to be a problem. Especially not if we can then stop shoving 2 BILLION tons of oil through it at 10 times the speed of the current while burning oil to do so.
Heck, this little thought experiment leads me to think we could probably make uranium harvesting ships with nuclear power plants that would cruise the oceans (slowly) picking out the good stuff…
Say we wanted a 1/2 void filter bed. That would make it 250,000 DWT of filter in a ship. Given the yield they got (IIRC it was 1 kg / 350kg of filter / year) that ought to give about 714,000 kg of U per year. At $150 / lb (high for now, but we’re talking when the land stuff is scarce) that’s $107,000,000 per year or about $293,000 / day. Day rates on a tanker are often in the $50,000 scale, so we’re in big profit land. I’m also pretty sure we will not be using a significant part of that 714,000 kg of U to power the nuclear engine for a year.
Golly! I think I’ve just invented another category of ship:
The Uranium Miner
Or in this case, the Ultra Large Uranium Miner, or ULUM
It looks to me like it could be very profitable. IFF uranium ever gets out of the basement of depressed prices…
(Who do I talk to about patenting the ULUM ? )
For those curious about the impacts of Geothermal Energy production, here are some of the results of Public Scoping for an Environmental Report done about twenty five years ago. The project was to be on the southern end of the Mendocino National Forest located in northwestern California north of Clear Lake and was proposed to be similar to the existing Geothermal development at the Geysers on the south side of Clear Lake. Bear in mind that many NIMBY’s respond to this type of scoping as well as dyslexics that cannot tell the difference between a National Forest and Natural Forest and people that associate Mendocino with booming surf and giant redwoods. The proposed project is located some fifty miles from the coast in a semi-arid area supporting mainly brush and scrub pine trees. The geothermal areas are along faulted serpentinite zones that sometime grow rare magnesium tolerant flowers and the area has the remnants of several old hot spring resorts dating from the late 1800’s. These two areas of possible impact were not addressed by the scopees.
Objections fell into four main groups;
Visual: In addition to power lines, cooling towers and turbo-generating buildings, the surprising main visual objection were the clouds of steam that would rise hundreds of feet into the air as it does at the Geyser Project.
Noise: The sound of the steam turbans is not unlike that of a jet plane and can be heard for miles. There were also complaints about the huge drilling rigs used with their roaring diesel engines and large bits grinding through hard rock for months on end.
Pollution: The steam distillate often contains heavy metals that can pollute streams, lakes, wetlands and groundwater and must be hauled to a disposal site.
Intrusion: The project would intrude on the “Natural” Forest with large roads needed for access by the gigantic drill rigs and the large work and building pads which are often located low in the canyons near streams and would destroy the pristine nature of the forest..
The project never came to fruition.
I’ll admit up front that I have not actually read the entire thread of comments, so mine might have already been covered. However, a loyal reader at Atomic Insights told me there was an interesting conversation here and suggested I might want to offer a few thoughts on atomic energy.
While skimming through the comments, I noted that there are some people, like Steve Goddard, with some serious misconceptions about the potential benefits of atomic fission compared to coal combustion. They claim to be concerned about nuclear weapons proliferation and/or the long term hazards of accidents like Chernobyl. I think Steve even claims family effects from the accident, though he is not very specific about what they were.
My personal witness is that I once spent about 700-800 days (total, broken up into 11 different periods) sealed up underwater with an atomic power plant that provided all of the power needed for heating, cooling, computing, lighting, entertainment, cooking, and propelling for a 9,000 ton submarine with a crew of 150 people. That power plant was a steam engine heated by a tiny volume of fuel that could fit under my office desk. That fuel lasted for about 14 years under rather heavy service – the ship had two crews and spent most of its time at sea. For about 400 of those underwater days, I was the Chief Engineer, so I had a pretty comprehensive view of the technology, training and people required for safe operation in some very challenging environments.
Having had that experience, it is impossible for me to accept the negative comments that people make about nuclear power. That has been reinforced by a lifetime of up-close and personal experiences plus formal academic and technical training with coal, oil, gas, storage batteries, solar and wind power.
Atomic fission produces TINY amounts of waste that can be readily isolated from people and stored indefinitely. No one has ever been killed or even injured by accidental exposure to stored used fuel from a power plant, even though we have been handling it for more than 50 years. It can be dangerous if not properly handled; that is why we train operators to make sure they understand the simple principles of time, distance and shielding. I am confident that we will be able to keep teaching people how to responsibly handle the material as long as humans have the ability to speak. If we lose that ability, all bets are off anyway.
I am not reflexively opposed to fossil fuels, but having seen what I have seen with fairly primitive nuclear technology, I cannot help knowing that fission has a hell of a lot more growth potential than fire. (Note: That amazing power plant I described above was designed in the 1950s, less than two decades after the basic physical phenomenon of self sustaining fission was first proven in a lab experiment.)
Humans have been using controlled fire for at least 10,000 years and we have been living off of the earth’s stored capital of concentrated hydrocarbons for nearly 200 years. In many places around the world, we are starting to scrape the bottom of the stored fossil fuel reservoirs. In others we are choking on the waste that is naturally produced and released to our shared atmosphere and waterways. However, we do have a very rich, powerful and entrenched industry that extracts, transports, refines and markets fossil fuel. That industry HATES effective competition and has worked for at least 50 years to tie fission down.
In my mind’s eye, I see the fission power industry as being like Gulliver in the land of the Lilliputs – it is tied down with a bunch of easily broken threads by a bunch of self-important but ultimately powerless people. There is a good reason that the organized opposition to fission power has been able to exist for so long – there is a natural alignment in goals with some very rich pro-fossil fuel interest groups. They both like high priced power, both want to restrict new sources of energy, and both are “afraid” of nuclear technology.
The amount of stored fission fuel capital is thousands of times larger than the hydrocarbon capital and it provides a higher quality output with a much smaller volume of waste that can be readily isolated. One incredible source of stored fission fuel capital is what many people call “spent fuel”. Another one is what is often called “depleted” uranium, a third one is a completely different metal called thorium, and another one is the world’s current inventory of atomic weapons. Of course, there is also an incredibly energy rich inventory of uranium left in the earth’s crust and dissolved in ocean water.
One more comment before I leave the stage – nuclear weapons and the technology needed to make them already exist. There is no way to pull the knowledge out of the heads of the people who have it and no way to control all of the needed materials. Their existence and even their ownership is less of a subject worth worrying about than efforts to ensure that the weapons will NEVER be used against people by ANYONE. MAD (mutually assured destruction) may seem like a terrible strategy, but it has worked so far to make sure that even the most aggressive people recognize that a decision to launch will probably be self-defeating and even suicidal.
Rod Adams
Publisher, Atomic Insights
Host and producer, The Atomic Show Podcast
E.M.Smith (20:49:28) :
Have you checked whether this polymer is reusable? Last time I read it was an ion exchange resin that could be flushed clean of accumulated U and used again.
OZYMANDIAS
I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shatter’d visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamp’d on these lifeless things,
The hand that mock’d them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
“My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
-Mary Shelley
In Egypt’s sandy silence, all alone,
Stands a gigantic Leg, which far off throws
The only shadow that the Desert knows:
“I am great OZYMANDIAS,” saith the stone,
“The King of Kings; this mighty City shows
“The wonders of my hand.” The City’s gone,
Nought but the Leg remaining to disclose
The site of this forgotten Babylon.
We wonder, and some Hunter may express
Wonder like ours, when thro’ the wilderness
Where London stood, holding the Wolf in chace,
He meets some fragments huge, and stops to guess
What powerful but unrecorded race
Once dwelt in that annihilated place.
—Horace Smith.
I am a newbie here, but it was quite clear from the moment I started reading this blog that Roger Sowell is no troll, and is in fact a font of information on matters pertaining to energy engineering and matters legal.
I don’t agree with all of Roger’s conclusions regarding the costs and benefits of nuclear power vs. renewables, but his analyses have to be considered, and they provide a valuable perspective. The subject is a complex one, especially when you consider the variations in economics and technology all over the world.
As to whether France ‘subsidizes’ its government-owned nuclear-power industry, that’s an empirical question that depends on (a) the meaning of ‘subsidize’ and (b) whether, all things considered (e.g. building and decommissioning) the power plants actually earn a profit. Maybe the question is worth a separate thread here, if someone wants to do the research.
In any event, the calls for Roger Sowell to be ‘somewhat censored’ (whatever this may mean) seem to me to be entirely inappropriate, and requiring an apology.
/Mr Lynn
I agree that Roger is no troll. There are no two people who agree on everything. If we must have unanimity here, there will only be one commenter. I wonder who it will be?
Mike
I never said Roger was a troll, just a very slick lawyer. The only censoring I think is appropriate is to stay reasonably close to OT. Characterising nuclear as subsidized is pretty far from the truth considering all the taxes, fees, and permitting required, especially compared to the renewables.
And the whole energy storage argument was very misleading. I would be happy to hear the cost of the Catalina energy storage per kwh and it’s efficiency. I’m sure he knows this well, and I’d guess it’s at least 10 times the cost of Bath County Virginia, which was built to better use the baseload nukes before additional units were cancelled. That project was built for about $300/KW I think and returns 80% of the pumped energy when needed. It runs whenever the power value is 10% more than the predicted average and recharges by pumping whenever the price falls below 10% less. And the lakes don’t need to be replaced after a certain number of cycles.
I wonder how long it will be before the Catalina project joins the long list of failed, dismantled “demonstration” projects.
Rod Adams (23:15:59),
Great post. Hope to see you here often.
Fuelmaker above – please could you comment on the rough sum I did above for the payback on nuclear?
And I second the views re: no censoring. If people state opinions that others disagree with then let each side present evidence we can all learn from.
Nuclear Subsidies, in the United States:
An excerpt: “Congress created a $20 billion loan guarantee program for constructing new nuclear power plants; a $2 billion subsidy for developing uranium enrichment facilities in the United States; $2 billion in risk insurance for nuclear power plants facing delays due to regulations or public opposition; a $1.3 billion subsidy for decommissioning older nuclear power plants; $1.2 billion in reactor research; a $0.018 per kilowatt hour subsidy for electricity produced by new nuclear power plants; and liability protections worth billions of dollars.” [bold emphasis mine — RES]
http://www.greatfallstribune.com/article/20090527/DC5/905270356
Well, then, if true, that 1.8 cent per kwh subsidy should provide zero cost power…no wait, since it only costs 1.7 cents, the nuclear power plants will be paying me 1 penny for every kwh I consume.
[tongue-in-cheek off now…]
David Porter (11:53:03) : Having come into this debate late I notice that Roger Sowell has again been promoting his non ending agenda of anti nuclear bias, once again calling the French nuclear industry subsidised [based entirely on the fact that it is nationalised]
Well, nationalization is the ultimate form of government subsidy. Once you’ve pumped so much money into something that you own it, it’s kind of hard to argue that it’s not the recipient of your money…
Look, I like nuclear. Not a whole lot, but more than a lot of the junk out there. It works. It’s manageable. It makes nasty crap at the end, but the stuff is not nearly as bad as the anti-nuke folks make it out to be.
NONE of that changes the fact that the French have a very long history of subsidy for many of their large industries in order to achieve social goals (like employment) and strategic goals (like maintaining nuclear expertise even though they are a relatively small country… they do have a nuclear bomb program to support…)
So if you want to throw rocks at the question of French subsidy, do that and don’t throw rocks at the messenger. I’m quite certain you will find a large pot of French Government Money flowing into their nuclear program to subsidize it. That will rise as a fact. Then we can move on to the question of was the subsidy good or bad…
(I can argue both sides of the subsidy is good / bad case. Required of Economists since when you graduate 1/2 will work for the side saying subsidy is needed and 1/2 will work for the other… My school dutifully prepared us for whichever side gave a job offer. 😎
My personal opinion is that in the case of France, the subsidy was a great idea. Bomb program gets good supply of trained staff and materials due to larger economies of scale. France rises to the top of a profitable global industry. Rakes in buckets of money from places like Iraq. Establishes a secure energy foundation for the country. Provides a strong economic advantage to every OTHER French industry via low power costs. Keeps all the voters warm and in well lit homes. Keeps coal smoke out of the French provinces … and noses…
Consider the alternative: France with little or no oil, coal, etc. Firmly dependent on OPEC and related for every drop of fuel they use. Massive coal imports and burning making lots of pollution (including heavy metals getting on those wine grapes…) Economic competitiveness bouncing up and down with the oil price (YIKES!) as billions of Euros flow from their hands to OPEC. A terribly expensive bomb program to support with little supply of staff and materials from a large scale industry – the whole thing would need to be on a small scale inefficient basis. Prices for electricity to homeowners and businesses rising rapidly. Unemployment and economic depression leading to social unrest. Gee, they would be just like the U.S.A., but without the domestic coal powered electricity providing stability… Oh, and the French air would have a distinct odor of coal and oil fumes…
I can only agree with Fuelmaker that his future comments should be “somewhat censored” on the grounds that he his prolific in arguing until the cows come home.
If that’s the criterion, then 90%+ of the contributions here need to also be “somewhat censored” (which is sort of like being “somewhat pregnant”…)
In fact his constant theme is getting on my nerves and ruining many of the threads on this site.
Look, I find the nay saying about nuclear a bit tedious too. I *want* nuclear in America. But his contributions are a valid part of the debate. If you don’t like his point of view, then develop a counter argument. Save it in a text file and every time he posts “Foo”, you post “Bar”. Quick and easy. Both sides will be aired and folks can decide.
The bottom line for me is that in California a large part of what Roger says is exactly “spot on”. It is an Alice in Wonderland place with insanity in the electrical system as the norm. Nuclear is (even if it were allowed by law) not economically possible here. Just think of the fact that the “nuclear-approved” by the NRC materials are often forbidden here by the CARB and other state agencies. Degreasers and solvents normally used to clean parts (prior to, for example, welding – a critical step…) are ILLEGAL here. So you think that might raise costs a bit?
So I’ve tried to find grounds to say Roger is wrong, and I have not been able to do so. The closest I can come is a weak argument (so I’ve not put it forward) that in some other theoretical place where governments didn’t interfere with national agendas and regulations someone theoretically could make a cheap efficient reactor. Oh, and the corollary that maybe some new magic reactor design will do the trick “This Time For Sure!”. All hypothetical hand waving.
So I’m waiting for an existence proof. So far all we have are national systems with hugh government money flowing into the pot largely contaminating the economic picture for political agenda reasons (broader economic support or bomb programs. National energy security.)
Russia: USSR built system 100% subsidized in construction. Bombs too.
France: Social services and bomb program justified subsidy. Fuel security. Strategic support for world economic competitive posture in other industries. Fuel cycle supported by the government.
England: Bomb program. Mixed economics due to this. Confused at present. Not much new to base a cost analysis upon. Most reactors fairly old and built under different regulatory schemes. Some decommissioning cost data coming out, and it supports Roger…
USA: Heavily subsidized R&D for bomb program. Some non-subsidized commercial nukes; mostly in a far gone past with vastly lower regulatory hurdles. Nothing recent to base any evaluation upon. Fuel cycle subsidized by government (mandatory disposal by government). Decommissioning costs still speculative so no life cycle costing possible.
Japan: Heavily promoted by government for reasons of strategic energy security (similar to France. Not much else to use – no oil, coal, etc.) You don’t see a lot of Japanese reactors popping up outside Japan, so I have to guess that the product doesn’t sell well outside the Japanese economy. We must wait and see. Since they bought Westinghouse, with a nifty new small efficient reactor design, we may get an answer to the hand wave about new reactor designs…
China: System build with bombs in mind as a government product 100% paid for by the communist government. Slight movement into market based system. Too early to tell where it ends up. Fairly loose regulations, though, so it may turn into an existence proof of fast economical construction of new plants – if they don’t blow up or melt down…
India: Heavily government supported industry. Same reasons as France. Not much choice, given the very low levels of any other energy source in the country. (They have something like 1/3 the world’s Thorium though… thus their being the leader in Th reactors and U233 bombs at the moment). Bomb program and fuel cycle involvement by the government too. No life cycle costing due to young life of industry (decommissioning costs show up 50 to 100 years later…)
The rest of the nuclear programs in the world similarly are government run often for bomb making with electric power as a cover. Israel. Iran. The Old Iraq. etc.
The only one that I find interesting and NOT in this mould is Canada.
Not a bomb making country. Lots of other energy available. Yet they designed, built, and sell the CANDU reactor. Yet a lot of the early design and R&D stage was government subsidized. So that is where I hang my hopes. Unfortunately, recent sales have dropped.
CANDU reactors are cheaper and more efficient than many others. They run on natural (i.e. not enriched) Uranium. You can put a Th blanket in them (that’s part of how India did “things”…) and they are sold in a global market.
Yet these folks: http://www.ccnr.org/exports_1.html
and several other sites, say that it’s been at the expense of $13 Billion to $16 Billion of subsidy… and that isn’t even counting the overpaying that might be going on from the buyers side in places that want one for the indirect purpose of following an India / Pakistani style path to nukes.
The CANDU allows online refueling and breeds more Pu than most, so it’s “better” for a backdoor bomb program than most other “power” reactors. you need to do a lot of “refueling” to get a short fast cook of the fuel rods, but hey, what’s an aspiring global dictator nuclear wanna-be gonna do? It’s just a little money… So there is the unanswerable taint of clandestine bomb program subsidy potential in those “free market sales”. We have the existence proof of India too…
At the end of all this, I’m left with no good “counter” to Roger’s position that nuclear is simply not economical sans the ever present hand of government promotion. That it is a bad choice when based only on issues of energy economics. If you have a better argument, please make it as I desperately want one!
Until that time, saying you want the messenger silenced because you don’t like the message and it “gets on your nerves” is a bit much. Getting old gets on my nerves, but that doesn’t mean it will stop happening to me and aging is a lie.
Roger Sowell
Did you read the article, this is over 20 years! So lets add it up shall we, 20 Billion loan Guarantee – FREE as far as I know there were no defaults.
2B for enrichment Research and Development = Science – you do not think the Government should fund science?
2B Risk insurance due to “facing delays due to regulations or public opposition” which would not be required in environmental activists did not have such an anti-nuclear bias that reaches into REGULATORY DOMAIN.
1.3B Decommissioning is because the Government promised to create a national nuclear waste storage facilty and are required to pay this as part of not meeting its legal obligations in finding a suitable location. Again the blocking of the Yucca Mountain site by environmentalists.
1.2B in Reactor Research – Again funding science is bad?
The PTC is nothing compared to the current one for renewables and as far as I can find out ran out years ago and was implemented to off-set a taxation burden on the Nuclear Industry.
All Governments provide maximum liabiltiy protections that are FREE unless a disaster occurs, all it does is limit the liability of the operator to a set amount. No disasters no payments.
We are Talking about 150B over 10 years DIRECT INVESTMENT in renewables on top of the 10 Billion spent in the Bush Years, not even close to them same amount of money and we ended up with 20% market penetration with nuclear and we maybe can get to 5% renewables.
Geoff Sherrington (03:58:26) : Have you checked whether this polymer is reusable? Last time I read it was an ion exchange resin that could be flushed clean of accumulated U and used again.
Yes, it can be reused. Don’t know the total process (flush and re-dunk; or flush, melt, reform and dunk; or flush chemically reprocess…) so I just left it as unstated. But most likely you would have a few of years lifespan out of it. I’d guess 5 to 8 years based on other plastics. Even at the end of that, though, the majority of the material is still suitable for making into new plastic.
The idea that the quantity of resin needed is somehow too big is just out of touch with how large the global economy really is. As I showed up thread, we could fit it in a small percentage of the worlds present oil tanker fleet.
I really like the idea of the ULUM class of ships 😎 using 1/10 the the present fleet size of the oil tankers to power the entire worlds electric needs has a certain charm to it… and it would take about 1/20 the the volume of hydrocarbon that is presently sitting in that crude carrier fleet transformed into plastics rather than burned up.
A nuclear powered ship doing, oh, 3 knots? would take darned near no power at all to run. Having the polymer in standard bins would allow easy automated processing (I’d probably go for beads rather than blankets so it could be moved via pumping, but that’s an engineering choice.) The whole thing just cruising slowly around and every so often a ‘tender’ comes out to pick up the ‘yellowcake’ it’s harvested and swap in some new processing chemicals.
That you might need to reform or replace that resin every few years is just not very significant compared to everything else. It’s down in the fractional pennies on the dollar…