Disproving The Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) Problem

Reposted from The Air Vent

Disproving The Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) Problem

Leonard Weinstein, ScD

April 25, 2009

A theory has been proposed that human activity over about the last 150 years has caused a significant rise in Earth’s average temperature. The mechanism claimed is based on an increased greenhouse effect caused by anthropogenic increases in CO2 from burning of fossil fuels, deforestation, cement manufacture, and also from increases in CH4 from farm animals and other causes. The present versions of the theory also include a positive feedback effect due to the increased temperature causing an increase in water vapor, which amplifies the effect. The combined result are used to claim that unless the anthropogenic increases of CO2 are slowed down or even made to decrease, there will be a continuing rapid increase in global temperature, massive melting of ice caps, flooding, pestilence, etc.

In order to support a theory, specific predictions need to be made that are based on the claims of the theory, and the predictions then need to happen. While the occurrence of the predicted events is not proof positive of a theory, they increase the believability of the claims. However, if the predictions are not observed, this tends to indicate the theory is flawed or even wrong. Some predictions are absolute in nature. Einstein’s prediction of the bending of light by the Sun is such a case. It either would or would not bend, and this was considered a critical test of the validity of his theory of general relativity. It did bend the predicted amount, and supported his theory.

Many predictions however are less easily supported. For example weather forecasting often does a good job in the very short term but over increasing time does a poor job. This is due to the complexity of the numerous nonlinear components. This complexity has been described in chaos theory by what is called the butterfly effect. Any effect that depends on numerous factors, some of which are nonlinear in effect, is nearly impossible to use to make long-range predictions. However, for some reason, the present predictions of “Climate Change” are considered by the AGW supporters to be more reliable than even short-term weather forecasting. While some overall trends can be reasonably made based on looking at past historical trends, and some computational models can suggest some suggested trends due to specific forcing factors, nevertheless, the long term predicted result has not been shown to be valid. Like any respectable theory, specific predictions need to be made, and then shown to happen, before the AGW models can have any claim to reasonable validity.

The AGW computational models do make several specific predictions. Since the time scale for checking the result of the predictions is small, and since local weather can vary enough on the short time scale to confuse the longer time scale prediction, allowances for these shorter lasting events have to be made when examining predictions. Nevertheless, if the actual data results do not significantly support the theory, it must be reconsidered or even rejected as it stands.

The main predictions from the AGW models are:

  1. The average Earth’s temperature will increase at a rate of 0.20C to 0.60C per decade at least to 2100, and will continue to climb after that if the CO2 continues to be produced by human activity at current predicted rates.

  2. The increasing temperature will cause increased water evaporation, which is the cause for the positive feedback needed to reach the high temperatures.

  3. The temperature at lower latitudes (especially tropical regions) will increase more in the lower Troposphere at moderate altitudes than near the surface.

  4. The greatest near surface temperature increases will occur at the higher latitudes.

  5. The increasing temperature at higher latitudes will cause significant Antarctic and Greenland ice melt. These combined with ocean expansion due to warming will cause significant ocean rise and flooding.

  6. A temperature drop in the lower Stratosphere will accompany the temperature increase near the surface. The shape of the trend down in the Stratosphere should be close to a mirror reflection of the near surface trend up.

The present CO2 level is high and increasing (http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/). It should be fairly easy to show the consequences of AGW predictions if they are valid.

Figure 1. Global average temperature from 1850 through 2008. Annual series smoothed with a 21-point binomial filter by the Met Office. (http://hadobs.metoffice.com/hadcrut3/diagnostics/global/nh+sh/)

It should be noted that the largest part of the last 150 year increase in CO2, which is blamed on human activity, did not occur until after 1940, so the largest temperature rise effects should have occurred in that time. The proponents of AGW have generally used the time period from 1970 to 2000 as the base line for an indicator of the rapid warming. In that base line period, the average temperature rose about 0.50C, which averages to 0.160C per decade. The claim was then made that this would accelerate due to continuing increases in CO2 level. However if we look at the temperature change from 1940 through 2008, the net increase is only 0.30C. This is due to a drop from 1940 to 1970 and a slight drop from 2000 through 2008. Now the average rise for that period is only 0.040C per decade. If the time period from 1850 through 2008 is used as a base, the net increase is just under 0.70C and the average rise is also 0.040C per decade! It is clear that choosing a short selected period of rising temperature gives a misleading result. It is also true that the present trend is down and expected to continue downward for several more years before reversing again. This certainly makes claim 1 questionable.

The drop in temperature from 1940 to 1970 was claimed to have been caused by “global dimming” caused by aerosols made by human activity. This was stated as dominating the AGW effects at that time. This was supposed to have been overcome by activity initiated by the clean air act. In fact, the “global dimming” continued into the mid 1990’s and then only reduced slightly before increasing more (probably due to China and other countries increased activity). If the global dimming was not significantly reduced, why did the temperature increase from 1970 to just past 2000?

A consequence of global dimming is reduced pan-evaporation level. This also implies that ocean evaporation is decreased, since the main cause of ocean evaporation is Solar insolation, not air temperature. The decreased evaporation contradicts claim 2.

Claim 3 has been contradicted by a combination of satellite and air born sensor measurements. While the average lower Troposphere average temperature has risen along with near ground air temperature, and in some cases is slightly warmer, nevertheless the models predicted that the lower Troposphere would be significantly warmer than near ground at the lower latitudes, especially in the tropics. This has not occurred! The following is a statement from:

Synthesis and Assessment Product 1.1

Report by the U.S. Climate Change Science Program

and the Subcommittee on Global Change Research

April 2006

While these data are consistent with the results from climate models at the global scale, discrepancies in the tropics remain to be resolved”.

Claim 4 implies that the higher latitudes should heat up more than lower latitudes. This is supposed to be especially important for melting of glaciers and permafrost. In fact, the higher latitudes have warmed, but at a rate close to the rest of the world. In fact, Antarctica has overall cooled in the last 50 years except for the small tail that sticks out. See:

http://ff.org/centers/csspp/library/co2weekly/20061013/20061013_02.html

Greenland and the arctic region are presently no warmer than they were in the late 1930’s, and are presently cooling! See:

http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2006/11/17/cooling-the-debate-a-longer-record-of-greenland-air-temperature/

The overall effect of Antarctic and Greenland are now resulting in net gain (or at least near zero change) of ice, not loss. While some small areas have recently lost and are some are still losing some ice, this is mostly sea ice and thus do not contribute to sea level rise. Glaciers in other locations such as Alaska have lost a significant amount of ice in the last 150 years, but much of the loss is from glaciers that formed or increased during the little ice age, or from local variations, not global. Most of this little ice age ice is gone and some glaciers are actually starting to increase as the temperature is presently dropping. For more discussions on the sea level issue look at the following two sites:

http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dnc49xz_19cm8×67fj&hl=en

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/5067351/Rise-of-sea-levels-is-the-greatest-lie-ever-told.html

This indicates that claim 5 is clearly wrong. While sea level will rise a small amount, and has so since the start of the Holocene period, the rise is now only 10 to 15 cm per century, and is not significantly related to the recent recovery from the little ice age, including the present period of warming.

The claims in 6 are particularly interesting. Figure 2 below shows the Global Brightness Temperature Anomaly (0C) in the lower Troposphere and lower Stratosphere made from space.

a) Channel TLT is the lower Troposphere from ground to about 5 km

b) Channel TLS is the lower Stratosphere from about 12 to 25 km

Figure 2. Global satellite data from RSS/MSU and AMSU data. Monthly time series of brightness temperature anomaly for channels TLT, and TLS. Data from: http://www.ssmi.com/msu/msu_data_description.html

The anomaly time series is dominated by ENSO events and slow troposphere warming for Channel TLT (Lower Troposphere). The three primary El Niños during the past 20 years are clearly evident as peaks in the time series occurring during 1982-83, 1987-88, and 1997-98, with the 1997-98 being the largest. It also appears there is an aditional one at 2007. Channel TLS (Lower Stratosphere) is dominated by stratospheric cooling, punctuated by dramatic warming events caused by the eruptions of El Chichon (1982) and Mt Pinatubo (1991). In these, and other volcanic eruption cases, the increased absorption and reflectivity of the dust and aerosols at high altitudes lowered the surface Solar insolation, but since they absorbed more energy, they increased the high altitude temperature. After the large spikes dropped back down, the new levels were lower and nearly flat between large volcanic eruptions. It is also likely that the reflection or absorption due to particulates also dropped, so the surface Solar insolation went back up. It appears that a secondary effect of the volcanic eruptions is present that is unknown in nature (but not CO2)! One possible explanation is a modest but long-term drop in Ozone. It is also clear that the linear fit to the data shown is meaningless. In fact the level drop events seem additive if they overlap soon enough for at least the two cases shown. That is, after El Chicon dropped the level, then Pinatubo occurred and dropped the level even more. Two months after Pinatubo, another strong volcano, Cerro Hudson, also erupted, possibly amplifying the effect. It appears that the recovery time from whatever causes the very slow changing level shift has a recovery time constant of at least several decades.

The computational models that show that the increasing CO2 and CH4 cause most of the present global warming all require that the temperature of the Stratosphere drops while the lower atmosphere and ground heat up. It appears from the above figures that the volcanic activity clearly caused the temperature to spike up in the Stratosphere, and that these spikes were immediately followed by a drop to a new nearly constant level in the temperature. It is clear from the Mauna Loa CO2 data (http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/) that the input of CO2 (or CH4) from the volcanoes, did not significantly increase the background level of this gas, and thus, this cannot be the cause of the drop in the Stratosphere temperature. The ramp up of atmospheric CO2 also cannot explain the step down then level changes in high altitude temperature. Since the surface temperature rise is supposed to be related to the Stratosphere temperature drop, and since a significant surface rise above the 1940 temperature level did not occur until the early 1980’s, it may be that the combination of the two (or more) volcanoes, along with Solar variability and variations in ocean currents (i.e., PDO) may explain the major causes of recent surface temperature rises to about 2002. In fact, the average Earth temperature stopped rising after 2002, and has been dropping for the last few years!

The final question that arises is what prediction has the AGW made that has been demonstrated, and that strongly supports the theory. It appears that there is NO real supporting evidence and much disagreeing evidence for the AGW theory as proposed. That is not to say there is no effect from Human activity. Clearly human pollution (not greenhouse gases) is a problem. There is also almost surely some contribution to the present temperature from the increase in CO2 and CH4, but it seems to be small and not a driver of future climate. Any reasonable scientific analysis must conclude the basic theory wrong!!


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Dave Middleton
May 25, 2009 1:46 pm

@Just Want Truth… (13:21:43) :
If it was all about “people” and finding cost effective ways to reduce CO2 emissions…The focus would be on replacing coal and oil with natural gas to the fullest extent possible.
The technology and infrastructure already exist…The cost per unit of energy is far less expensive than wind and solar…And gas burns far cleaner than oil and far, far, far cleaner than coal.
If the burning of fossil fuels was actually altering the climate and if the bureaucrats & liberal politicians were actually interested in a solution, that is the path they would choose to follow. But, they aren’t interested in solutions; they need to perpetuate crises so that they can amass power and control.
Fortunately, apart from general circulation models that consistently fail to accurately predict climate change, there is no evidence to support AGW…So my solution would be “all of the above.” Promote “green energy” technology; promote cleaner coal technology; promote nuclear…And “drill baby, drill”…”drill here, drill now” and produce as much oil and natural gas as we possibly can.
The technological innovations the ultimately move us away from a “carbon economy” will get here a lot faster in an expanding economy fueled my more and cheaper energy…Not in an environment of less and more expensive energy.

Just Want Truth...
May 25, 2009 1:49 pm

“”Pierre Gosselin (05:22:28) :
Alan G,
In Part 3 they interview – guess who?
Steven Schneider!!””
It is him! Watch from 5:30 to 6:33 of video :

May 25, 2009 1:57 pm

vivekchandran (12:05:40),
This thread questions the CO2=AGW hypothesis. Although the other emissions you mention are worth discussing in the proper forum, the question here is: what empirical evidence is there that the CO2=AGW hypothesis is valid?

Pamela Gray
May 25, 2009 2:01 pm

Just want truth: I loudly disagree with your statement, or question rather, “You would also agree that mankind as always been active in reducing pollution? And that there is no reason to think he will stop being active?” I think humanity knows now bottom line in polluting the Earth, not intently, but simply as a non-considered consequence of their collective activity.
That said, it is shameful that thinking environmentalists have jumped on the bandwagon of targeting an essential trace gas as being a pollutant and needing control. It will now and in the future prevent reasonable and necessary pollution control efforts due to its unsustainable, and eventually debunked, CO2 causes AGW theory.

Just Want Truth...
May 25, 2009 2:14 pm

Pamela Gray (14:01:10) :
I still think humans have tried to reduce pollution. There are cases where management in some factories have disposed of toxins in an illegal ways. But that’s not what I’m talking about. That is always wrong. Humankind does make the effort to reduce pollution.
I think what I’m driving at is that pollution is not destroying the earth. It does do damage to the local area where it is produced—mainly to the people living in that area—I know because of how the brown tint in the air here in the San Francisco Area on hot summer days makes me feel. But just drive a few miles away and there is clean air. By far most of the world is completely unaffected by the pollution of big cities.
But I don’t have any reason to believe that humankind will take leave of its senses and stop reducing pollution. I think it is unfair to treat people as if they don’t care about how clean the air is. I am sure most people, including those who run factories, do.
That’s all I’m saying Pamela.

Just Want Truth...
May 25, 2009 2:35 pm

“vivekchandran (12:05:40) : What I meant was that the air quality in the City is degraded.”
This is a problem for big cities, not the entire world.
IMO I don’t mind a small tax to help reduce pollution in big cities. But you have to stop trying to make people believe there is a serious problem for all mankind. It is a very small problem. You can even drive far enough away from a big city so that you can still see it in the distance and there won’t be pollution where you are standing. If all the billions that have already been put in to Manmade Global Warming had been put in to solving this local pollution problem it would be satisfactorily resolved.
I think you have to reaccess what you think the pollution of big cities is doing to the world.

Just Want Truth...
May 25, 2009 2:53 pm

“vivekchandran (12:05:40) : What I meant was that the air quality in the City is degraded.”
Picture it this way : no city can be seen from space. That’s how small they are in comparison to the world. Now imagine how much pollution those cities make in comparison to the entire world.

May 25, 2009 2:56 pm

Dave Middleton (13:13:40) :
@Nasif Nahle (12:07:57) :
Nasif…I have been debated climate change in 4-5 Internet forums for the last 5 years or so. Most of those forums allow the members to include personal profiles…In every instance, I clearly put the fact that I an an oil industry geophysicist in my profile.

And debating climate change has been a hard task, I suppose. I say this because your and my fundaments rely on strict scientific assessments. One gets surprised when some posters manipulate theories and laws, and knowledge in general, as if they were malleable at their wish. You and I were taught that observational and experimental data were intrinsic to the theory of truth. Now those people think that models are reality and reality is an illusion. That’s why they are busy on trying to erase all preceding periods of warming, icehouses, high concentrations of CO2, etc. They are offering a static-unwavering Earth, a Sun that doesn’t warm the Earth, an Earth that is an “almost”-closed system, a toxic carbon dioxide, a toxic water, etc.
It never fails that at some point in every one of those climate change debates, someone will type something like this, “I see by your profile that you are an oil industry scientist. So nothing you have to say on this subject can be believed.”
Yes, it’s common to bump on those ad hominem attacks which obey to a complete ignorance on what factual sciences are and what is the scope of a scientist of any discipline. For example, I know about the preponderant role of oceans on driving climate on Earth for its thermal capacities; if someone says that oceans have nothing to do with climate, my responsibility as a scientist will be to show him/her on what his/her error consists or, at least, to let others know why his/her interpretation of a given process or phenomenon is wrong, or how he/she has misinterpreted data. Instead accepting his/her mistake, they resort to dogmatism, ad hominem attacks, etc.
The funny thing is that almost all of the “science” that I rely on in these debates comes from my college education at a very obscure state university in New England back in the 1970’s. Back then I knew that the “imminent ice age scare” was baloney just as well as I know that the current global warming scare is baloney.
At those times, I knew also that catastrophes due to imminent ice age were nonsense. However, I must to accept that I was deceived through many years by another catastrophist idea on a scorching climate change. Nevertheless, when I put myself on meticulously assessing the AGW idea, making use of what I have been taught during my career, I found it is also gibberish.
The only difference between now and the late ’70’s ice age scare is the political reaction to the Chicken Littling.
Hah! You’re right. Someone said, I don’t remember who did it, “follow the money”…

Carol S
May 25, 2009 3:30 pm

The CO2 theory is just a theory. Mindgame. Don`t believe a theory is reality. The CO2 theory is like a hardcore religion. With its own priests.

May 25, 2009 3:53 pm

Good article, except for the title:
Disproving The Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) Problem
The AGW promoters and the media constantly beats everyone over the head with this kind of message: that AGW must be disproved. We might as well try to prove that the entire universe didn’t pop into existence ten seconds ago in its current form.
The right way to respond would be:
Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) Hypothesis Falsified Once Again
Skeptics have nothing to prove. It is the promoters of the AGW hypothesis who must make a convincing case. They have failed time after time, but the debate is kept alive because they turn the scientific method on its head by demanding that everyone else must prove that their pet hypothesis is false.

gacooke
May 25, 2009 3:58 pm

vivekchandran (12:05:40) :
Philip B.
OK. Just relax about the “CO2 being pollution” in my previous comment. Yes its wrong. What I meant was that the air quality in the City is degraded. Everybody knows there are plenty of [u][i][b]other[/b][/i][/u] pollutants being emitted along with CO2.
You still seem to be classifying CO2 as a pollutant.
Like others here, I am a geologist, (BS ’73 CWRU, MS ’77 Ga. Tech.). It seems like a lot of us hang out here for some straight talk on climate science. This is only my third post in over a year of lurking here.
I currently work characterizing highly radioactive waste and stabilized waste forms at the Hanford Reservation in Eastern Washington State. But I have also studied climate change throughout geologic time, and have published on the archaeologic impacts of Holocene sea level change.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/114052257/abstract
I have been a “Climate Crisis Denier” for a decade. What we are witnessing is, IMO, a demonstration of hubris and ignorance.
I commend the Global Warming Petition Project to any scientists of like mind:
http://www.petitionproject.org/
I hope to submit a response to the EPA proposed endangerment rule
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/endangerment.html
before the June 23rd deadline. I think I’ll take the tack that supression of atmospheric CO2 violates the Endangered Species Act, because of the threat to endangered plants and animals.
Keep up the good work Anthony and you WUWT posters!

Keith Minto
May 25, 2009 4:09 pm

Lindsay H.(03:47:48)
Thanks for that link to the thoughtful comments by Dr Willem de Lange. He is certainly well qualified to comment on oceanography. I recommend this site (it is not long) for a well written, clear description of his involvement in the IPCC process and his understanding if the oceans role in all of this. A quote…….
“The inconvenient truth that is generally ignored, is that the atmosphere is not capable of warming the oceans to any significant degree – 99.9 percent of ocean heat is derived from sunlight at wavelengths less than 3 microns. The balance is mostly from heat leaking from the interior of the Earth. ”
Now heat leaking from the the interior of the earth is not a factor,however small,that I have heard mentioned before.
I commend the article.

RoyFOMR
May 25, 2009 4:11 pm

Thank you, Dr Weinstein, for an excellently-presented, persuasive and easily understandable essay.
The way you ticked off and discounted the counter-arguments to your findings was superb.
For some reason, I kept getting the image of ‘Columbo’ and ‘Quincy’ in my mind, jumbled up with Mr Climate Audit himself.
Maybe, one day, forensic-climatology may become a core Earth-Science. If so, your despatch of the irrelevant, exposure of the misleading and promotion of the important will become required reading.
I hope that your passion for the subject, demonstrated by the use of exclamations, is also heritable!!!!!

RW
May 25, 2009 4:25 pm

Dave Middleton:
“By just visually looking at the HadCRUT3 data it should be “intuitively obvious to the casual observer” that the temperature anomaly has oscillated with a wave length of about 60 years and an average amplitude of about 0.34 C since 1850.”
I find that statement bizarre. By just visually looking at the HadCRUT3 data, I can see nothing that remotely resembles your claims about it.
“If you download the HadCRUT3 data (CO2 Science has a nice interface) and plot the temperature anomaly from 1908-1942 and 1978-2006…Linear trend-lines for both periods have almost identical slopes.”
And?
“As far as the Stratosphere goes…”Greenhouse” warming of the Troposphere would by definition result in simultaneous Stratospheric cooling. This is something that has never been clearly demonstrated in the satellite observations.”
What is not clear about this?
Tony B:
“I had not posted the May 2000’s figures as we had not reached the end of the time period-the figure was of the 1990’s to 2000 which was 11.73, so below two of the decades quoted.”
Let me remind you what you said: “the decadal mean average for May during the 2000’s is running well below what it was in 1670’s, 1710’s, 1800’s, 1910’s,“. Even if you actually meant to say ‘May during the 1990s’, the data still directly and inescapably contradicts you.
“So your figures for the Aprils of the 2000’s will be around 0.2C warmer than the 1910’s and a simlar amount to the 1800’s . So a rise in temperature from the LIA of .01 c per decade.”
It would be silly to calculate a ‘trend’ from temperatures in one single month, from just three decades. Much more sensible is taking all the data from all months and all decades. The trend since 1800, doing it that way, is +0.04°C/decade.
“As regards May, the 2000’s will be some .35C cooler than the 1940’s and some .33 warmer than the 1730’s. This represents a rise of .01 per decade from the depths of the LIA, but a fall in the values of 60 years ago.”
Again, that’s not the way trends are calculated, and really has very little relevance. The overall trend, using all the data from all the months and years, is +0.04°C/decade since 1800.
“winters have become distinctly milder-not surprising as much of CET covers the LIA. although our three warmest winters are all prior to 1the 900’s”
Firstly, you appear to be saying that warming has caused warming. Second, once again you appear to be inventing things. Here are the seasonal CET measurements in order. 1989 comes third. 1989 is not ‘prior to the 1900s’.
“There is very little difference on an annual or decadil basis of the summers-plenty of warm summers back to 1660, plenty now. The mean average is depressed by the exceptionally cold winters but the mean average is still within a narrow band of mostly between 9 and 10c.”
There are 350 summers in the CET record. Let’s look at the top 35. I’ll tell you the percentage of the years in each century which appear in that top 35. 1600s: 5%. 1700s: 11%. 1800s: 9%. 1900s: 12%. 2000s: 22%. Comparing that last number to the ones before it, does anything strike you?
“It is very difficult to se any evidence of catastrophic and rapid warming”
It’s rather easy to see evidence of rapid warming. To decide whether that is catastrophic, you’d need to come up with some clear and objective definition of catastrophe.
“indeed the very weak recovery from the depths of the LIA is rather concerning”
Again, to meaningfully assess this statement, you need to define your terms. What do you mean by ‘very weak’? What do you mean by ‘concerning’?
“and lays open the question-are we to all intents and purposes still in the LIA?”
Define ‘LIA’.
I find it disturbing, Tony B, how frequently you are making simple factual claims that are trivially shown to be untrue. I also find it irritating that you make many, many statements which are not meaningful because they contain undefined vague statements. I would urge you to try to avoid these two tendencies.

Francis
May 25, 2009 4:53 pm

Dave Middleton (07:08:04)
“…and plot the temperature anomaly from 1908-1942 and 1978-2006…Linear trend-lines for both periods have almost identical shapes.”
A look at a graph of Total Solar Irradiance (TSI) and temperature (against time) would suggest that the above results may be coincidental.
Temperature increases with TSI over the first period. Then they both roughly level off.
But in 1978 the TSI goes into a decline. While the temperature continues to increase.
AGW begins in 1978. Computer models can hindcast the climate up until then using natural causes. After that, the CO2 effect must be added.
I’m not a geologist. But I did take enough of those courses that I could have gotten a degree in it.
And I don’t remember anything that I learned in those classrooms that would set me against recognizing something new. In fact, I learned all those reasons to expect continental drift, long before it was “found”.
As I see it, in the absence of a natural causes explanation for the post 1978 temperature increase; some consideration should be given to what’s left standing: CO2 AGW.
Gilbert (10:51:32)
GISS assumes that the Arctic Ocean’s temperature is that of the nearest shore station.
If you object to that approximation, you can use HadCRUT, which simply omits the Arctic Ocean entirely.

juan
May 25, 2009 5:11 pm

Nasif Nahle
“Uh! Oh! Would you be so kind as to brief me also on how to avoid ad hominem attacks and not getting anger before ad homs? :)”
My late father would recommend the example of the Missouri farmer who was kicked by his mule. He considered the source and went on with his work….l

May 25, 2009 5:17 pm

Francis (16:53:44)

“As I see it, in the absence of a natural causes explanation for the post 1978 temperature increase; some consideration should be given to what’s left standing: CO2 AGW.”

Sorry, Francis, that conclusion isn’t remotely logical.
You’ve made an argumentum ad ignorantiam: the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn’t been proven false.
You’re saying that global warming is occurring due to CO2 simply because because nobody has demonstrated conclusively that it is not. You could just as “logically” argue that the decline in pirates is the reason the planet has warmed a few tenths of a degree: click
When you find some solid, real world evidence demonstrating that CO2 is causing the planet to heat up, post it here. You’ll be the first ever to prove CO2=AGW, and you’ll get bragging rights.

Reply to  dbstealey
May 25, 2009 5:20 pm

You know Smokey that graph really should be updated since the number of pirates has been seriously on the increase for the last decade and also temperatures have been dropping.

May 25, 2009 5:27 pm

jeez,
Notice that the chart ends at 17 pirates total. And they just killed four of those a couple of weeks ago. At this rate, we’d better keep our long johns handy.

lweinstein
May 25, 2009 6:04 pm

I would ask what is the difference between using an exclamation mark when you exclaim something, and using a question mark when you ask a question? Neither is good form in a formal paper, but these are less formal blogs for discussion. I do agree with Paul Coppin that the issue is not about a theory, but a bunch of hypotheses and computer models with the common name Anthropogenic Global Warming. However, the common use of the term on the blogs has been theory, so I tried to stay in character. Sloppy use of terms is bad, but if all users are aware of the difference, it becomes a kind if local lingo. If a formal paper were being prepared, I would be much more careful (I hope). This is also true of the back and forth on disproving vs. falsification of points. I will try to do better in the future. I do want to make two corrections to my writeup. The first relates to my use of lower Troposphere. This should be upper Troposphere. My bad. The second refers to my use of evaporation. It should be atmospheric vapor content. However at the site
http://www.greenworldtrust.org.uk/Science/Curious.htm (Skeptical AGW scientist)
the section on atmospheric vapor content connects to a site that states the absolute vapor content has been flat to dropping during the run up of temperature and CO2. This kills positive feedback.

Francis
May 25, 2009 6:40 pm

Smokey (16:53:44)
I feel a little handicapped discussing the natural causes explanations for this post 1978 temperature increase. What are theyj? What’s still in play? I don’t see’em mentioned any more.
Sunspot effects? Cosmic rays? Any other cycles? Still recovering from the Little Ice Age?
I’ve mentioned before that another greenhouse gas; also acting on water vapor, would best fit some of the characteristics (cooling stratosphere,
warming Arctic).
There has been a lot of money and attention spent on climate science in recent decades. It just seems unlikely that the real explanation could remain a total mystery.
So, I guess I’m asking……..are there any natural causes explanations still in play?
Or, is the situation reduced to arguing for the mystery?

old construction worker
May 25, 2009 6:52 pm

Francis (16:53:44)
‘AGW begins in 1978. Computer models can hindcast the climate up until then using natural causes. After that, the CO2 effect must be added…………..As I see it, in the absence of a natural causes explanation for the post 1978 temperature increase; some consideration should be given to what’s left standing: CO2 AGW.
Wow. How did computer models missed a natural caused cooling trend that started serveral years ago as CO2 continued to increase? Have you found the “heat in the pipeline” in our cooling oceans or the “hot spot” in the troposphere? And, where are those “heat trapping clouds”?
Please let me know when GE starts selling CO2 climate control sustem for my home.

Evan Jones
Editor
May 25, 2009 7:03 pm

So, I guess I’m asking……..are there any natural causes explanations still in play?
Well there’s PDO, SO, IPO, NAO, AO, and AAO
All of that flips from cold to warm (on schedule), and it adds up. That’s a lot of Os.
Then in 2007, the PDO goes back to cold, and we have a killer La Nina (just like the last time PDO went cold). Others to follow. Expect a mild cooling for some time to come. (Leaving out the Silent Sun.)
That’s not geology, of course, but one must give oceanography its due.
You can’t do the Sherlock Holmes exclusion thingie for climate. You can’t exclude “all other possibilities” because there are too many of them and there are probably as many unknown factors ans known factors.

Evan Jones
Editor
May 25, 2009 7:18 pm

BTW. I want to emphasize that this is a liberal blog. That is to say, all points of view are tolerated here, we encourage coolheaded examination of all points of view and we discourage argumentum ad hominem. (Well, better make that “19th-century liberal”.)

Paul
May 25, 2009 7:20 pm

Francis: “A look at a graph of Total Solar Irradiance (TSI) and temperature (against time) would suggest that the above results may be coincidental.
Temperature increases with TSI over the first period. Then they both roughly level off.
But in 1978 the TSI goes into a decline. While the temperature continues to increase.”
I would strongly recommend you have a look at the papers published (2005 and afterwards) by Scafetta & West and by Nir Shaviv. I would also recommend that you read the rebuttal of the Scafetta work by Lockwood & Froelich and the two (separate) rebuttals to the Lockwood & Froelich work by Nir Shaviv and by Svensmark.
The Scafetta & West paper makes the very important point that just considering the radiative forcing effect of TSI ignores
“…the feedback mechanisms and alternative solar effects on
climate (for example, UV energy changes are involved in
production and loss of ozone, variations in the solar wind
affect the size and intensity of the heliosphere and modulate
the cosmic rays that may affect formation of clouds affect-
ing Earth’s albedo)…”. I will come back to this point.
Both the S&W paper and Shaviv’s work show correlation of TSI with temperature over varying timescales, something which cannot be done with CO2). The Shaviv work also shows the statistically significant inclusion of cosmic ray intensity as a controlling variable, albeit not fully independent of TSI.
The Lockwood & Froelich rebuttal puts forward the argument that recent TSI variation cannot explain the recent rapid increase in temperature (your argument, I believe). The rebuttals explain why it is still possible to explain much of the variation by solar and solar-related activity.
Your argument appears to be that if there are no other obvious natural causes for the temperature rise in the 80’s and 90’s, then we should be suspicious that it may be CO2. I don’t have the same philosophical objections that Smokey has to this reasoning. It seems like Sherlock Holmes – type reasoning. I merely point out that there still exist other possible natural causes which have not yet been eliminated. As Soon said in a bad paraphrase: “It’s the sun, stupid.”
It seems to me that all supporters of AGW are compelled by their own logic to believe that the only contribution of the sun is by direct radiative forcing (TSI). If they were to accept any amplification factor of TSI on climate sensitivity, then they would have to accept a diminished climate sensitivity to CO2 in the relatively short-term match of models to history. This leads to a paradox, and one which I would certainly have included if I had attempted to write Dr Weinstein’s paper, namely that the climate sensitivity attributed to Sol is not sufficient to explain temperature variation before we humans started to destroy the planet with CO2.
My thanks to the original author for a thought-provoking article and thanks for Westside Story.

Jared
May 25, 2009 7:26 pm

Flanagan-
You can’t compare previous CT ice images with current ones. They are using a totally different imaging program now.

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