Much has been written about the Insight, Honda’s new low-priced hybrid. We’ve been told how much carbon dioxide it produces, how its dashboard encourages frugal driving by glowing green when you’re easy on the throttle and how it is the dawn of all things. The beginning of days.So far, though, you have not been told what it’s like as a car; as a tool for moving you, your friends and your things from place to place.
So here goes. It’s terrible. Biblically terrible. Possibly the worst new car money can buy. It’s the first car I’ve ever considered crashing into a tree, on purpose, so I didn’t have to drive it any more.
The biggest problem, and it’s taken me a while to work this out, because all the other problems are so vast and so cancerous, is the gearbox. For reasons known only to itself, Honda has fitted the Insight with something called constantly variable transmission (CVT).
It doesn’t work. Put your foot down in a normal car and the revs climb in tandem with the speed. In a CVT car, the revs spool up quickly and then the speed rises to match them. It feels like the clutch is slipping. It feels horrid.
And the sound is worse. The Honda’s petrol engine is a much-shaved, built-for-economy, low-friction 1.3 that, at full chat, makes a noise worse than someone else’s crying baby on an airliner. It’s worse than the sound of your parachute failing to open. Really, to get an idea of how awful it is, you’d have to sit a dog on a ham slicer.
So you’re sitting there with the engine screaming its head off, and your ears bleeding, and you’re doing only 23mph because that’s about the top speed, and you’re thinking things can’t get any worse, and then they do because you run over a small piece of grit.
Because the Honda has two motors, one that runs on petrol and one that runs on batteries, it is more expensive to make than a car that has one. But since the whole point of this car is that it could be sold for less than Toyota’s Smugmobile, the engineers have plainly peeled the suspension components to the bone. The result is a ride that beggars belief.
There’s more. Normally, Hondas feel as though they have been screwed together by eye surgeons. This one, however, feels as if it’s been made from steel so thin, you could read through it. And the seats, finished in pleblon, are designed specifically, it seems, to ruin your skeleton. This is hairy-shirted eco-ism at its very worst.
Please click to read the rest of the article at the Times Online
Don’t get me wrong, I like new technology, and improved fuel economy too, but I just had to show this auto review excerpt from the Sunday Times because, well, it’s just so darn funny.
RobP (09:32:02) :
A hybrid allows recovery of energy while braking and installation of an engine which would be efficient but would not otherwise have the safety margin and “confidence” factor of reserve acceleration of a larger (and thus more lossy) engine. It’s as simple as that. If you do a lot of city driving, the tradeoffs of buying an electric motor and carrying batteries pay off. If not, then maybe not.
zivilprozess (10:10:48) :
You mean supporting “Japanese” companies who operate factories and employ workers in the U.S. as opposed to “American” manufacturers who make their product in Mexico and lay off American workers?
An overgeneralization, but I’m sure you see the point.
Clarkson is a joker, and his reviews should be taken with a pinch of salt – as an example, his pop at CVTs isn’t really a fair criticism.
On CO2 emissions, comparing MPG (as people have noted) is a bit of a minefield, as different fuels produce different amounts of CO2 and different countries have different sized gallons (!!!???!!!) which causes no end of confusion. In the EU, we rate new cars with a grams of CO2 per kilometre rating, which is a nice direct measure, no need to try to account for all the differences.
Checking the figures, the Insight hybrid does pretty well at 101 g/km. But there are better; the Ford Fiesta Econetic diesel manages 98 g/km. Of course, to achieve this the Fiesta must get much better mileage per gallon (as diesel produces more CO2 per gallon), so fuel costs for the Fiesta are around 10% less, the car costs £2000 less in the first place (although you need to spend a few hundred pounds on options to get the same spec), the Fiesta’s simple drivetrain will most likely last longer and cost less to service. So the CO2 emissions are similar but the Fiesta is a whole lot cheaper. (The Fiesta manages nearly 90 mpg cruising FWIW)
The Fiesta is a slightly smaller car though, which may be important to some, and some people will pay more for the Honda badge over the Ford badge. But the bottom line is that hybrids are not a big step up on CO2 emissions over a good diesel engine; they are about the same, perhaps at best a few percent better in town, thanks to regenerative braking, a few percent worse on the open road, thanks to the extra weight.
For some reason the alarmists have latched on to the hybrid as the future due to CO2 emissions. Watching them try to justify this position is quite entertaining.
Incidentally, you can see Jeremy’s review of the Fiesta at the link below on youtube. I wonder how a hybrid would cope with being driven through sea water? I hope those big current battery terminals are well insulated…
“Jeff Alberts (11:40:00) :
DaveE (17:01:35) :
“Jeff Alberts (08:27:50) :
Clarkson doesn’t like any car that won’t do at least 200 mph.”
He actually thinks the Mundano is a good car so that’s not true! (He likes it too).
Lol, is that a real car? Seriously? Someone named their car the “Mundano”? As in “mundane”??”
It’s a nickname for the Ford Mondeo, excellent car but definitely mundane.
DaveE
My experience is a bit contrary to some comments here.
The Prius and this car are good medium sized sedans with a 60/40 split back seat and hatch back that is good for this 6 footer with bikes and other crap to haul around … what is the point of a crossover or sedan again ? … oh you need a seat and a half to sit in 😉
I have the last good pick up truck sold in North America, a Duramax 3/4 tonne crew cab (with upgraded Allison Transmission programming that can now withstand global cooling). It pulls around the RV like you’d expect and does a short commute for the wife. Why anybody would buy a new gas pickup is beyond me. Buy a piece of junk with holes in the fenders if you need to haul big stuff once in a while … and get a car to drive around!
The next vehicle I buy will be an AWD Pontiac Vibe, the only car I like from GM and a better deal than a Matrix (same car) and with global cooling taking hold I have to prepare to drive on ice for a couple more months a year. The snow tires on the Prius helped and I’m not ever selling it … easy to drive starter car for kids … but it is almost time to move on although I think the Vibe will survive Pontiac’s demise from the looks of it.
The next truck … with the diesel dead (thanks to ass backward regs) you can only hope hybrid trucks with their RV utility (on board power plant) and potentially better starting torque get better and cheaper. Otherwise its baby the aging diesel into an acreage junker and another car for the better half.
So like Anthony said, its what you need and if you need more room than a compact hatch back, one of these hybrid’s like the Prius or this Honda will work great … and I was driving my Prius in -40 while VW TDI’s were stranded and standard gas cars were towed and thawed out.
jorgekafkazar says:
The Prius warranty in the U.S. on the battery and all the hybrid-related components is 8 years / 100,000 miles but in states that have adopted the California emissions standards (which includes California and NY amongst others, and thus a significant fraction of the Priuses sold), this is extended to 10 years / 150,000 miles. (See e.g. here: http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-main-forum/26588-2007-prius-10-year-150-000-mile-hybrid-battery-warranty-whichever-comes-first.html )
Toyota claimed that bench testing had shown the battery would last at least 150,000 miles and I am under the impression (although I don’t have hard data on it) that experiences thus far have shown this estimate to be reasonable or in fact too conservative.
Ah…This is analysis of the program is based on what exactly? (And, if you are claiming that there is going to be a general inflation at that rate, then it makes little sense to compare battery costs at that inflated value since everything would cost more.)
My own prediction is that the price of the batteries will fall due to economies-of-scale. (The only fly in the ointment would be if the demand for hybrid batteries is so large that scarcity forces the price up.)
DaveE (17:44:29) :
It’s built in France. It clearly isn’t a proper German car.. apart from the old Beetle, the German’s haven’t built an underpowered rear-motor rear-driven car since the BMW 700. It’s a light shopping cart- very French, very fine, as long as it stays off the motorways.
Joel Shore (14:04:53) : “jorgekafkazar says: ‘The battery life is harder to determine, since it depends on the use cycle of the vehicle, but they’re probably good for 80,000 to 160,000 miles. If the manufacturer doesn’t warantee the battery, then figure 50,000 miles. That adds anywhere from 2 to 8 cents per mile.’
“The Prius warranty in the U.S. on the battery and all the hybrid-related components is 8 years [to 10 years]
Right. As I stated, if there is no warranty, assume 50,000 miles. If there is a warranty, use the term of the warranty. Duh. Toyota’s warranty periods and estimated bench life all fall within my prediction of 80,000 to 160,000 miles.
“Toyota claimed that bench testing had shown the battery would last at least 150,000 miles…”
Right. That’s what they claim. Somehow, though, I doubt if most people drive their car like a bench. Plan on 80 to 160 Kmiles, as I said.
“…and I am under the impression (although I don’t have hard data on it) that experiences thus far have shown this estimate to be reasonable or in fact too conservative.”
Right, that’s your impression.
‘Remember, though, Obamarama’s energy program has built-in inflation of about 10 to 20% per year once coal is locked out, so battery costs will probably inflate rapidly as we get further into the cycle. Better allow $8,000 to $10,000 for replacements in ten years.
“Ah…This is analysis of the program is based on what exactly?”
Oh, golly, Joel, I am just under the impression (although I don’t have hard data on it) that experiences thus far have shown this estimate to be reasonable or in fact too conservative. Maybe it should be 25%. Diminished energy supply (no coal) and relatively inflexible demand for energy always result in rising prices for energy. And energy is a component in every item you buy; all costs will rise along with energy prices. Remember the early 70’s? Maybe you don’t…
“(And, if you are claiming that there is going to be a general inflation at that rate, then it makes little sense to compare battery costs at that inflated value since everything would cost more.)”
Right, except that if you’ve already bought one of these turkeys, in x years you must either put out for a new battery or drive zero miles. If you bought a Mini, you could drive fewer miles to offset the inflated cost of gasoline.
“My own prediction is that the price of the batteries will fall due to economies-of-scale.”
Your own prediction is wrong. Economy of scale applies to manufactured goods in which the cost of tooling and design are written off over longer and longer runs. Batteries, sad to say, are material cost intensive, and will only rise in price with inflation, unless…
“(The only fly in the ointment would be if the demand for hybrid batteries is so large that scarcity forces the price up.)”
Right!
jorgekafkazar says:
Well, you can plan on that if you watn, but since, as I noted (but you conveniently left off of your quotes of me) all of the Priuses sold in New York, California, or any other state that adopted the California air pollution standard is 150 Kmiles, you would have Toyota paying a lot of warranty claims. Looks to me like their bench testing just might be realistic.
By the way, it doesn’t really matter how you drive…The Prius makes up its own mind about when to use electric or gas power and it is designed so that the battery is rarely drained very much. This is why the battery life is so long.
Well, you might think that they are turkeys, which is your right, but the owners of the Prius give it the highest marks for customer satisfaction of any car that Consumer Reports has sufficient data for (measured by the percentage who answer affirmatively to the question of whether, if they had it to do over, they would buy the car again).
Well, to paraphrase Niels Bohr(?), prediction is hard, especially about the future. So, maybe we should check back in a few years and see who turns out to be right. However, things aren’t looking too good for you so far as the replacement costs you quoted of $3200 to $4000 are already out-of-date. Here’s a piece of news from last September:
And, the article goes on to give some data about how the battery packs have been faring so far and to talk about their plans for the futre and how this might affect battery costs:
So, it looks like your pessimism about hybrids and their batteries may be a bit off the mark!
Sorry, I accidently left out the link for the article that I quoted above. Here it is: http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2008/09/toyota-lowers-price-on-prius-replacement-batteries-says-business-slow—for-now.html
Joel:
Look–hybrids are garbage.
Maybe one day they will live up to their greenwashed promises, but the technology and infrastructure are simply not there. Your claims to the contrary are a lesson in logical fallacies and false stats sampling. Inherently, the more complicated you make any machine, the shorter its lifespan. Any mechanic worth his or her salt can spot a disposable piece of driveway junk a mile away—for the most part, the production model since the seventies and early eighties has been to build cars with 100K- expiration dates.
A compact, conventional, easily-maintained, high-efficiency conventional car is still the way to go, and both the domestic and import makers could be doing far better. Better parts availability, easier maintenance, fewer integrated systems to deal with, less weight, abundant part lines, no specialized repair training, cheaper parts and better interchangeability… these always have and always will result in a better car. Period. Anyone who argues the contrary has never even looked under their hood, let alone worked on their own cars before.
A 1983 Honda Civic HF hatchback gets 50-60mpg. That’s a quarter of a century ago. With a friggin carburetor. And yet you still see these things zippin around, some of them rebuilt three times over. Know why? Simplicity; not smugness and hypocritical technophilia. But if the model is buy-break/sell-buy, the Hybrid-owners’ claim to environmental “insight” is absurd at best, negligent at worse.
Want to cut your emissions and save gas?
Drive less, and mix in some bicycling and public transit.
I really liked this post. Can I copy it to my site? Thank you in advance.
Good Morning ladies, I am late to the dance, just ran into the website. Ham slicer indeed! I drive a 2002 Saturn SL manual, manual windows, but Ihave a splendid sunroof. I currently have 238,000 miles on this queen and she consistantly get 45 mpg. I one time and one time only got 50mpg, and if I concentrate and draft, and coast, and turn off the car at red lights, 46-48 1/2 all day. NowI bought this car for 11,500, it was called the “springtime special” Can you imagine were these suits would be if “everyone” bought one of these SL’s for $11,500, and drove it over 200,000 miles? They don’t want you to save the planet, they want to save their cushy jobs. The 1985-1995 civic’s with the 1.6 and manual got 50mpg al day. Where are those cars now? Get smart kids.
“Late to the dance” is an understatement! I wouldn’t have seen your comment, dj, except this was back in the day when I subscribed to threads—very quickly thereafter my email inbox got overloaded, and I stopped that practice.
In any event, rest assured that at least someone saw your comment. I am glad you’re happy with your 2002 Saturn. Myself, I hanker after a new Mustang GT, and one of these days I promise myself I’ll get one. I don’t reckon it makes a whit of difference to “the planet” whether I drive a nice big V-8 or a tinker-toy 4. But “tweak ‘is own,” as my old friend Sinc used to say.
/Mr Lynn