NASA’s Dr. James Hansen once again goes over the top. See his most recent article in the UK Guardian. Some excerpts:
“The trains carrying coal to power plants are death trains. Coal-fired power plants are factories of death.”
And this:
Clearly, if we burn all fossil fuels, we will destroy the planet we know. Carbon dioxide would increase to 500 ppm or more.
Only one problem there Jimbo, CO2 has been a lot higher in the past. Like 10 times higher.
From JS on June 21, 2005:
One point apparently causing confusion among our readers is the relative abundance of CO2 in the atmosphere today as compared with Earth’s historical levels. Most people seem surprised when we say current levels are relatively low, at least from a long-term perspective – understandable considering the constant media/activist bleat about current levels being allegedly “catastrophically high.” Even more express surprise that Earth is currently suffering one of its chilliest episodes in about six hundred million (600,000,000) years.
Given that the late Ordovician suffered an ice age (with associated mass extinction) while atmospheric CO2 levels were more than 4,000ppm higher than those of today (yes, that’s a full order of magnitude higher), levels at which current ‘guesstimations’ of climate sensitivity to atmospheric CO2 suggest every last skerrick of ice should have been melted off the planet, we admit significant scepticism over simplistic claims of small increment in atmospheric CO2 equating to toasted planet. Granted, continental configuration now is nothing like it was then, Sol’s irradiance differs, as do orbits, obliquity, etc., etc. but there is no obvious correlation between atmospheric CO2 and planetary temperature over the last 600 million years, so why would such relatively tiny amounts suddenly become a critical factor now?
Adjacent graphic ‘Global Temperature and Atmospheric CO2 over Geologic Time’ from Climate and the Carboniferous Period (Monte Hieb, with paleomaps by Christopher R. Scotese). Why not drop by and have a look around?
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Doesn’t Hanson commute ~ 90 mi. each way to work? WUWT? This guy should set an example by at least retiring to his compound and minimizing his breathing.
REPLY: He has a small apartment in NYC near Columbia, where he lives during the week, commuting on weekends. – Anthony
Shouldn’t a CO2 alarmist sum all of the CO2 emissions associated with all of his abodes and work areas to determine if he is consuming above the norm given that we are experiencing a CO2/climate emergency?
TomT (13:37:37) :
One more thought on this. If he is truly this concerned about CO2 from burning coal why isn’t he making the case to fight coal fires.
When I think of all the coal burning underground going to waste….
hey, we are going to need that stuff. It’s getting colder, don’tcha know.
The mighty Sun has thrown a rod.
Rachel, if you feel that is far too long ago to compare, then pick an age that is ok to compare. Which age do you take as a normal level, and why?
“It’s called a CO2 Draeger tube”
I’ve used Draeger tubes in real life Industrial hygiene situations in the past. They are awesome and cost effective and quick as an initial trouble shooting tool.
It’s worth pointing out (again) that as Rachel has mentioned above, the graph in the top post is fallacious as a representation of the relationship between atmospheric CO2 levels and global temperature in the deep past.
Perhaps those that present this graph might address the following:
(i) There is zero paleoCO2 data in the graph. The CO2 representation is a calculation of the broad evolution of CO2 modelled according to the evolving positions of the continents, weathering rates and so on. Although a scientist would wish to see the data points, there aren’t any. The model output is calculated every 10 million years, interpolated every million years and the points joined up. It’s a very nice model. But paleoCO2 data it ain’t!
(ii) where has the temperature data come from? Anyone care to hazard a guess or enlighten us? It’s from Scotese’s website, but where’s the primary data? Does anyone care that it bears little relationship to the known paleotemp data?
(iii) It’s stated in the top post:
However that’s a statement unsupported by evidence. The late Ordivician glaciation is dataed to 445.6-443.7 MYA (million years ago). It would be nice if we knew what the atmospheric CO2 levels were at that time. Unfortunately we don’t. There is no contemporaneous proxyCO2 data for this period. What one assuredly cannot do is to take proxy records preceding and following the period and just join them up with a straight line! It can’t be emphasised more strongly that one can only assess the relationship between greenhouse gas levels and global temperature in the deep past, under the specific circumstance that one has contemporaneous paleoCO2 and paleotemp proxies. Likewise one can’t use the CO2 value predicted from a model!
(iv) Notice that since the solar constant was well below the value existing today (by around 4%), the greenhouse gas concentration threshold for glaciation ws much higher then, than now. CO2 concentrations likely need to be less than around 500 pm for significant glaciations on Earth at present and at equilibrium. During the late Ordovician nearly ½ a billion years ago, simple analysis of radiative forcings indicate that greenhouse gas levels 2200-3900 were required to maintain the Earth in an ice-free state[***]. Things were very different then, and one can’t compare then with now, without considering the very large changes in the properties of the sun amongst other things.
(v) This assertion is also in contradiction to the scientific evidence:
In fact a fairly dispassionate perusal of the science indicates a rather strong relationship between the Earth’s global temperature and CO2 concentrations right throughout the Phanerozoic (last ~600 million years):
D. L. Royer (2006) CO2-forced climate thresholds during the Phanerozoic Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 70, 5665-5675.
[***]e.g. A.D. Herrmann, M.E. Patzkowsky and D. Pollard (2004) The impact of paleogeography, pCO2, poleward ocean heat transport and sea level change on global cooling during the Late Ordovician Palaeogeogr. Palaeoclimatol. Palaeoecol. 206, 59–74.
Rachel, the following is a quote from the site you just referred us to. What is your point?
The Antarctic temperature records indicate that the present interglacial is relatively cool compared to previous interglacials, at least at these sites. It is believed that the interglacials themselves are triggered by changes in Earth’s orbit known as Milankovitch cycles and that the variations in individual interglacials can be partially explained by differences within this process.
This post has got me thinking …
Jim appears to have joined Gore on the long road to Fanaticism. This comment about death trains is akin to the worst mass murdering regime in history is not a sign of good mental health. Gore too has showed a lot of signs of poor mental health from the yo-yo weight issues, crazier statements, unkempt look, etc. At some point our human compassion needs to override our righteous attitudes we need to hope and pray that good friends of these two will be able to offer them the advice and get them some help.
I’ve never doubted the sincerity of Jim H or Albert G. And so it must be crushing to see your reputation and complete body of work slowly get dismantled as each new month of temperature data comes out. Well — sort of like a slow death train wreak.
As an American taxpayer I too am sick and tired of my employee James Hansen. America will be a better place after he retires, or just gets too old to write or give talks.
Probably by now he has injured GISS beyond repair, and in an ideal world that organization would be considered for D&D (defund and disband).
Rachel (13:28:14) :
“Mike D – “Warmer is Better” is just banal nonsense. Tell that to the families of the 35,000 who died in the European heatwave of 2003. And please look at this graph:
http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/Image:Ice_Age_Temperature_Rev_png
and point out which periods with temperatures 5° higher than today saw human civilisation flourish”.
Rachel,
1. The European Heatwave was a natural phenominan which had nothing to do with CO2
2. Most of the people did not die from the heat but because they did not drink enough.
The current response of the social institutions during warm periods now is to check on the elderly if they drink enough.
The casualties in Australia were caused because of power failure that shut off the air conditioners.
3. The subject of warm versus cold conditions has been a topic at WUWT and the fact is that cold conditions result in a higher mortality rate.
4. There were higher temperatures during the Roman Empire.
The empire collapsed when the climate turned cold.
The French Revolution was also caused by cold conditions as was the defeat of Napoleon in Russia.
Anyhow, cheap energy is of the essence for any modern civilization to survive and prosper if weather conditions get cold or warm.
I am fed up with hearing about this guy Hansen…if he has a point to prove then DEBATE it with you peers…and not your sychphants.
Rachel
Wikipedia is extravagantly unreliable on anything to do with climate change.
In Europe where I live it was about 3-4 degrees warmer during the “climate optimum” (that was the standard term when I studied Quaternary Geology, it’s taboo now). That was 5-10,000 years ago, when human civilization evolved. Historically warm times have always been good times for humanity.
What’s the usual retirement age at NASA? Jim Hansen was born March 29th 1941, which means he’s now pushing 68. How much longer can he go on? Maybe that’s why he’s screaming blue murder? He knows he can’t go on much longer.
Or can he?
Rachel:
You have no idea what you’re talking about.
20,000 people die of the cold in Britain alone every winter.
I would like to know where all the individuals live who are against coal? Do they have a family that they provide for or are they on the government dime? I’m assuming these are the same people that want population control, or are they ignorant in the fact that heat and electricity provides life to individuals who live in the Northern climates and without it life could not exist! I would also say it’s a safe bet that cold weather kills more people every year then does heat!
Indeed Rachel, it’s all about rates.
I am sure you are just an “enviro-whacko” like me.
Can people really imagine co2 being good for plants and not being good for people. It would be some clash between two interdependant parts of the same system. “That mango looks so juicy and huge but I feel so ill?” If co2 got really high we would just hold in less. Our lungs build up our levels and most people don’t breathe well. It is co2 that releases the oxygen from our red blood cells. This is why we have that warm feeling after exercise its partly the co2 produced from burning the fuel helping us oxygenate. So sure co2 is good for us and good for life, within reason.
Rachel (11:57:02) : Apart from that graph being pure fiction,
Um, the testimony of plants confirms the chart (in broad terms) from the paleozoic until now. Most plants degree days testify to a desire for 20 C range temperatures and CO2 enrichment testifies in the 1000 to 2000 ppm.
Unless evolution selects for unadapted species, the graph is not fiction.
Human beings have never experienced an atmosphere with CO2 levels significantly above what they are today.
Given that they have to go 3000 miles into the middle of the Pacific to get the CO2 levels down from the urban impacts, I think that statement is demonstrably wrong. The historic measurements show great variability to the upside on a location specific bases.
Now, I never measured it, but I grew up in a home with an open fire natural gas stove and an oven that vented into the kitchen. I have to think that when we spent a couple of hours running it all full on there was an elevation of CO2 in the house. And when I held my breath for 2 1/2 minutes (training for deep surface dives) I’m quite certain I experienced more than 400 ppm CO2.
I think I smell hyperbole…
foinavon (13:53:58) :
It’s worth pointing out (again) that as Rachel has mentioned above, the graph in the top post is fallacious as a representation of the relationship between atmospheric CO2 levels and global temperature in the deep past.
Care to post up a graph with what you believe is the real levels of CO2 throughout geological history? I’m sure it would be appreciated.
Surely burning coal & oil is returning CO2 to the atmosphere that the fossilised plants removed many years ago. The carbon did not come from anywhere else.
foinavon (13:53:58) :
I suppose all the Carbon locked up in the coal, oil, natural gas, and oil shales came from C02 asteroids. It couldn’t have been in an atmosphere anywhere within 5% of CO2 levels that are currently found on the 2 planets nearest us, now could it?
Venus & Mars?
You can rewrite all the geologic and evolutionary science while you are at it, and confiscate all the fossil records, destroy all the paleo exhibits in the world that get in the way of your anti Carbon-based lifeform science.
I’d be shocked but not surprised to see Hansen & others pop out of thier human disguises and reveal themselves as Methane based lifeforms from Triton on an agenda to rid Earth of Carbon so that they can take over.
Rachel said:
Mike D – “Warmer is Better” is just banal nonsense. Tell that to the families of the 35,000 who died in the European heatwave of 2003. And please look at this graph:
Many of us live and work in areas where summertime temperatures ordinarily exceed the 2003 European “heat wave”. I’ve worked outdoors in temps of 120 degrees and it isn’t the heat that will get you but the dehydration.
I admit I was very astonished reading about the selfishness of the families that took off on vacation leaving the older family members cooped up in tiny, airless apartments during a heat wave. I suppose it’s one of those “cultural” things.
That’s a wonderful photograph, I might be able to use it in a couple weeks.
That shadow is in the wrong direction, but it’s a minor defect.
REPLY: The shadow of death comes not from the sun. – Anthony
Well, can you say “gone around the bend on the coal train”.
His statements are just loony-toons absurd. But when you consider that the politics of today are based on people not knowing the truth, the media behaving like PRAVDA of old, nor people knowing anything about science, or how to apply science — such nutty statements must seem quite reasonable to them. And isn’t that the goal of the hysterics?
My favorite test when I come across a hysteric is to ask what photosynthesis is, and then follow with asking what cellular respiration is. So far nine times out of ten they could not answer neither. I then cap it off by asking them what are carbon life forms.
It’s time for science to step forward and put an end to this asinine hysteria.
Human beings have never experienced an atmosphere with CO2 levels significantly above what they are today.
I think I am in love with the above statement. It’s the lamest thing I have ever heard, and I don’t mind launching salvos at it.
I, being an underground miner for 19 yrs, and a half million of my brothers, will tell you that you wouldn’t make a pimple on a miner’s behind.
Hey, it’s the nicest thing you are likely to hear from your average miner who have spent their adult lives working in atmospheres far above what you call ‘safe’. Don’t take it personal, pard., but you don’t work on this planet like we do.
Get back in your spaceship, go home, and tell your fearless leaders that we’ll whip your kind with one hand tied behind our backs.
Rachel, re Wiki graph of Holocene temperatures:
The first leap in temps out of the Wisconsin Glaciation circa 14 kya saw the expansion of humanity into the Western Hemisphere. The Climatic Optimum of ~6 to 8 kya was the the Bronze Age and saw the first human civilizations ever. The Sumerians domesticated wheat and founded Babylon. Civilizations arose in Egypt and Crete. Writing was invented, metals were smelted, and ships plied the Mediterranean.
The Little Climatic Optimum of ~3.5 to 5 kya saw the rise of the Pharaoic dynasties in Egypt, the Sage Kings of China, the height of Danubian culture, the Ur city states in Mesopotamia, glass making, cotton weaving, systematic astronomy, the calendar, the wheel, iron making, barley cultivation, beer making (for gosh sakes, beer!!!), the rise of the great religions, Indus civilization, paper making, shipping, bow-and-arrow use, mummification, domestication of dogs, cattle, horses, and chickens, the Minoan civilization, the beginnings of the Persian empire, the invention of the decimal system, the Code of Hammurabi, Stonehenge, early Andean civilization, and etc.
The Roman Climatic Optimum of ~2.5 to 1.5 kya saw the rise of civilizations across Eurasia, Africa, and Central and South America. Carthaginians farmed areas that are today Saharan desert. Greeks perfected marble sculpture. Alcohol distillation was invented by those beer-swilling Persians. Lots of other good stuff happened.
Then temperatures plunged into the Dark Age minimum from ~300AD to ~900AD. Crops failed, civilizations fell, barbarians invaded. The Black Death became epidemic for the first time.
Then the Medieval Warm Period of ~800-1300 AD saw the return and rebuilding of civilizations worldwide along with the revival of agriculture.
Then the Little Ice Age hit from ~1315 to 1815. The Black Death killed a third of the population of Europe. Civilizations fell in Central America, and then smallpox and diseases killed ~90% of the population of the Western Hemisphere.
Since then it’s been getting slightly warmer, but not enough for my taste. Humanity is still prone to mass suicidal slaughter. Post-modernism has undermined common sense and trashed basic ethical and philosophical structures. Apocalyptic paranoia straight out of the Dark Ages frequently grips the masses. Mad schemes of anti-humanist, pan-ethnic cleansing fueled by quasi-religious fanaticism about the End of the World infect otherwise sensible people. Warfare, hatred, economic dissolution, and self-inflicted mass suffering still abound.
I prefer a warmer world climate. I think people are saner when it’s warmer, as well as wealthier due to productive agriculture. Maybe that’s banal of me, but not as banal as hysterical polemics about coal trains of death.