Review of Forbes On-line Magazine Article “Solar Energy Revolution: A Massive Opportunity”
By: Tom Tamarkin Founder FuelRFuture & President USCL Corp
Abstract:
This paper discusses a recently published business magazine article projecting massive growth in the solar industry over the next 20 years. We have analyzed the business, scientific, and engineering backgrounds of two well-known gentlemen quoted in the article and searched for business interests that would benefit from such growth either by way of early investment and subsidy capital or long term net revenue. We have analyzed the utility industry’s need to replace an existing 440 GW of fully operational and cost effective generating capacity in light of its projected retirement of plants due to age coupled with the potential increase in demand based on partial electrification of the transportation system. We conclude with the analysis of the feasibility of powering the U.S. electricity needs by a solar-only generation infrastructure based on system components and the feasibility of extremely large volume manufacturing, capital costs and the huge land areas required.
Key Concepts:
· The cost of a solar only approach exceeds $15.27 trillion
· Moore’s Law is not applicable to the production or deployment of solar panels
· Increases in “solar cell efficiency” have little impact on land area to produce utility scale power
Important Additional Supportive Papers
Solar Power Technology & Economics
Background:
Peter Diamandis, Co-Founder & Executive Director of Singularity University, in Moffett Field, California recently wrote an article published in Forbes on-line magazine titled “Solar Energy Revolution: A Massive Opportunity” The article starts off by stating Singularity Co-Founder and Google Director, Ray Kurzweil, “projects that the U. S. will meet 100% of its electrical energy needs from solar in 20 years.” Mr. Diamandis also states that Elon Musk, Chairman of the electric vehicle company, Tesla Motors, SolarCity and SpaceX “expects solar power to provide 50% of America’s electricity in 20 years.”
Peter Diamandis is probably best known as founder of the X Prize Foundation. In 1980 he enrolled at MIT to study biology and physics where he graduated with a degree in aeronautical and astronautical engineering. In 1989 he graduated from Harvard Medical School.
Ray Kurzweil graduated from MIT in 1970 and worked closely with the famed Marvin Minsky in the field of artificial intelligence. He is the recipient of the MIT-Lemelison award in innovation, and has received the National Medal of Technology from the White House as well as the National Inventors Hall of Fame under the U.S. Patent Office. He has received 20 honorary doctorates, and honors from three presidents and is the author of 7 books. His acknowledged area of expertise is in artificial intelligence and machine learning. In 2012 he was appointed a Director of Engineering at Google, heading up a team developing machine intelligence and natural language understanding. Google has since acquired Nest Labs which developed and sells the Nest self-learning thermostat for home use.
Elon Musk received a BS in physics from the University of Pennsylvania and a BS in economics from the Wharton School. Mr. Musk is the respected founder or catalyst of Zip2, X.com-PayPay, SpaceX, Tesla Motors, and SolarCity.
Discussion & Analysis:
All three gentlemen are well educated and extremely accomplished in their fields. Mssrs Musk and Diamandis in physics & engineering; and Mr. Kurzweil in the field of artificial intelligence, computer sciences, and IT. Mr. Kurzweil is well known as a “futurist” and has an excellent record of predicting technology development paths. All three are rock solid American citizens who have spent a life time building a better future for all of us.
These track records make people assume these predictions must be true. But are they? Should large institutional investors risk substantial capital based on these predictions? Should individual and family investors bet their retirement savings on these predictions? And perhaps most importantly, should public policy and national security be based on these predictions or is further due-diligence in order? The numbers are deceptively enticing to any business person.
Since Mr. Diamandis did not reference specific statements with relevant context, an internet search was conducted to review these “quotes” and their contexts.
We start with Ray Kurzweil and a review of business and consumer publications. Many were found quoting Mr. Kurzweil to say “in 20 Years virtually all power in America will come from Solar.” The 9billion.com news publication published an article so quoting him. The article indicates Mr. Kurzweil’s predictions are based on his “law of accelerating returns” which he derives from Moore’s Law in the semiconductor industry. Moore’s law is often used to define technology development cycles and follows:
Moore’s Law:
As has been observed, over the history of computing hardware, the number of transistors in a dense integrated circuit doubles approximately every two years.
The law is named after Gordon Moore, co-founder of the Intel Corporation, who described the trend in his 1965 paper. Sometimes the time frame is shortened to 18 months based on Intel’s experience in increasing chip performance and speed primarily through the release of the next generation microcomputer chip.
Another article also published in the 9billion,com says:
such progress has led futurist Ray Kurzweil to project that solar technology will compete with fossil fuels, and will be able to provide 100% of the world’s solar energy by 2030. The basis of his projection is the continual doubling of solar power every two years for the past 20 years. IT professionals might recall the concept of “Moore’s Law” in reference to computer chips.
Mr. Kurzweil is a consummate IT professional. However he does not have a solid state physics background and has not concerned himself with the fundamental parameters surrounding Moore’s law. One is chip die size. More transistor junctions cannot be put on a chip unless the silicon die is increased within certain practicalities. This issue is limited by a fundamental matter of physics based on atomic issues having to do with molecular cross sectional diameters of atoms and the interaction with free electrons traveling across a gap, as well as interconnection issues.
In April 2005, Gordon Moore stated in an interview that the law cannot be sustained indefinitely: “It can’t continue forever. The nature of exponentials is that you push them out and eventually disaster happens”. He also noted that transistors would eventually reach the limits of miniaturization at atomic levels:
It is projected that the end of Moore’s law in terms of junction density will be reached no later than 2016. That is an altogether different issue than the ability to increase performance and speed of microcomputer chips based on design optimization and investment in process capability.
The use of Moore’s Law to describe the photovoltaic solar business in terms of market penetration, fabrication and marketing and the appropriateness of solar to replace grid level baseload power generation does not apply; in fact, it confuses and misleads people who are not skilled or studied in the fundamental science. There three principal reasons:
1. The appropriateness of solar to replace grid level baseload power generation. Solar in general, regardless of the collection system: – photovoltaics or PV, concentrated PV, concentrated solar driving conventional steam turbine generators and thermal — are extremely inefficient in comparison to their enormous size and cost. It has been noted that the earth receives more energy from the Sun in just one hour than the world’s population uses in a whole year. The total solar energy flux intercepted by the earth on any particular day is 4.2 X 1018 Watt-hours or 1.5 X 1022 Joules (or 6.26 X 1020 Joules per hour). This is equivalent to burning 360 billion tons of oil per day or 15 Billion tons per hour. However the earth is spinning sphere close to 7,925 miles in diameter at the equator. Thus a fairly small amount of energy falls on a specific surface and for only a few hours at a time. Details are provided in Solar Power Technology & Economics.
People often hear that up to 1,000 Watts of energy are available per square meter of surface area and that all of it can be converted from infrared and visible electromagnetic radiation produced by the sun into electricity. That is a serious misunderstanding. Even Robert Muller, Ph.D. author of “
>Physics For Future Presidents” accidentally made this mistake in his book. David MacKay uses 5-20 watts of electricity per square meter of collection surface in his landmark book “Sustainable Energy – Without the Hot Air,”.
We put an expert to the task of defining just how much electricity on average can be generated per square meter (1 meter = 39.34 inches.) The number is 37.5 watts, averaged over 365 days a year, 24 hours a day, factoring in historical weather factors such as cloud cover, fog, etc., and in extremely well suited areas in the Southwest United States. A detailed report has been provided based on converting the current 440 GW generation capacity plus required margins with battery storage. The required amount of square land area to collect the required power is 29,333 km2 (7,248,342 acres); that is larger than the entire country of Israel and 50% larger than the state of New Jersey in the USA – or nearly equal to all of Maryland and Delaware. It also equates to a square having sides 171.3 km in length. In practicality the required area would be much larger for allowance between panels to allow construction crews access and to periodically clean the panels as dust and dirt significantly affect conversion efficiency. This requires 29,333,333,333 (29.33 billion) solar panels and 4.4 million battery modules contained in a number 40 shipping container (40 feet X 6 feet 8 feet,) covering a surface area of 130.8 km2 or a square with sides of 11.4 km with zero space between modules. This data is presented in a straightforward fashion for nonscientists in the publication “Going Solar.”
2. Manufacturing considerations. Twenty nine and 1/3 billion is a very large number of panels to manufacture. As pointed out in “Going Solar” it would take 929 years to produce this number of panels if they could be built at the rate of 1 per second. For comprehension, today’s commercially available PV panels are standardized at 1.46 square meters and weigh about 40 pounds. Fabrication is a multistep process involving silicon crystal fabrication, cell construction, interconnection, back plane and frame. Each panel needs to be inspected, tested, and certified to meet specification.
If a manufacturing rate of 1 panel per second could be achieved, it would take 929 years to produce 29.3 billion panels one square meter in dimension. Today’s current production panels weigh approximately 40 pounds and are complicated multi-component assemblies. To be clear this analysis is based on a panel 1 square meter in size. In reality panels differ in size according to the manufacturer and customer specifications. What does not change is 29,333 billon square meters of active semiconductor solar cell collection surface area must cover a similar amount of land area exposed to the Sun.
3. Misapplication of Moore’s Law to solar cell efficiency Improvements.
The issue of solar efficiency is incomprehensible to the average person to say the least. First, available energy from the Sun’s electromagnetic radiation per a given amount of surface area is a function of many factors. This is explained in “Solar Power Technology & Economics”. Because the amount of “harvestable energy” varies drastically based on longitude, latitude, prevailing weather conditions, and day of the year a series of charts has been prepared by NREL (and others) providing a simple bottom line Watt per square meter as averaged from all these factors. This is commonly referred to as insolation.
Thus, the simple increase of solar cell efficiency does not have a proportional increase in electricity produced per square meter. In “Going Solar” the insolation number used in the analysis of a 100% solar replacement of the current U.S. generation capacity is 37.5 Watts per square meter. No amount of wishful thinking can alter this fact. Thus marginal increases in cell efficiencies have a negligible effect on the tremendous land size and number of solar panels to be manufactured. The following data sets illustrate this point.
15% “panel efficiency” This is the current state of the art for most production panels
29,333,333,333 (29.33 billion) 1 sq m panels:
29,333 km2 1 @ second = 930 Years
1,100,000,000,000 ÷ 37.5 = 29,333,333,333 sq m ÷ 1,000,000 = 29,333 km2 v29,333 = 171.3 km X 171.3 km square
22% “panel efficiency” This is the midpoint in published numbers for Silevo/SolarCity
20,000,000,000 (20 billion) 1 sq m panels:
20,000 km2 1 @ second = 634.2 Years
1,100,000,000,000 ÷ 55 = 20,000,000,000 sq m ÷ 1,000,000 = 20,000 km2 v20,000 =141.42 km X 141.42 km square
40% “panel efficiency” This is only achievable in complex 2 gap cells with special optics
11,000,000,000 (11 billion) 1 sq m panels:
11,000 km2 1 @ second = 348.8 Years
1,100,000,000,000 ÷ 100 = 11,000,000,000 sq m ÷ 1,000,000 = 11,000 km2 v 11,000 = 104.88 km X 104.88 km square
55% “panel efficiency” This is the maximum theoretical efficiency based on physics.
8,000,000,000 (8 billion) 1 sq m panels:
8,000 km2 1 @ second = 253 Years
1,100,000,000,000 ÷ 137.5 = 8,000,000,000 sq m ÷ 1,000,000 = 8,000 km2 v11,000 = 89.55 km X 89.55 km square
The Shockley-Queisser limit states that the maximum solar conversion efficiency of an ideal solar cell is around 33.7% assuming a single p-n junction with a band gap of 1.34 eV.
The maximum practical limit for a tandem or dual cell is 47%.
“The Physics of Solar Cells,” Nelson, Imperial College Press, London, 2002, page 300, figure 10.9, states that the maximum theoretical efficiency of a tandem four terminal solar cell is 56%
Solar cells work by converting sun light and infrared radiation into electricity. This involves a high energy photon striking the semiconductor portion of the solar cell and transporting electrons across a band gap boundary. For a comprehensive understanding of the physics involved see “The Physics of Solar Cells”, as posted as a screen readable downloadable PDF.
For simplicity the following explanation is offered. Visible Sunlight is composed of a broad spectrum of colors which correspond to increasing photon energy levels. The lowest energy photons come from infrared merging to visible red. The highest energy electrons come from violet and ultra-violet. The following is a graph of the visible electromagnetic radiation from the Sun.
The chart below provides a specific photon energy value across the electromagnetic radiation spectrum starting with low frequency radio waves and ending with Gamma rays. The area of interest for solar cells is in the wavelength area of 800 nm to 350 nm. This represents an energy level of 1 to 1.6 electron volts. An electron volt is a very small amount of energy at 1.60 X 10-19 Joules. One Joule is a Watt second. As can be seen it takes a strong energy flux density to make the solar cell produce useful amounts of electricity!
The amount of work done per captured photon energy flux can be increased if photons of different energies could be absorbed preferentially in cells of different wavelength band gap. If the solar spectrum could be split up and channeled into photon-converters of different band gaps, then more of the solar spectrum could be harnessed. Nelson describes this in pages 298-300 in “The Physics of Solar Cells,” Impearl College, UK, World Scientific Publishing Co. Ltd., 2003-2008. Nelson’s Figure 10.6 below shows a power available from optimized one, two, and three band gap systems.
Nelson’s Figure 1.07 below illustrates one possible scheme for exploring multiple band gaps, where sunlight is split up by means of dichoric mirrors and directed on to cells of different band gap.
Nelson’s Figure 1.08 below illustrates two and four terminal configurations for tandem cells. In either case, short wavelength light is preferentially absorbed in the top cell, and longer wavelength light in the bottom cell.
A complete copy of “The Physics of Solar Cells” may be downloaded here as a PDF.
> 
The most efficient solar cell yet produced in the laboratory is 44.7% as shown in the above graph.
Clearly Moore’s Law has no application to the use of solar cells or the production of them. The fundamental limitation is the surface area of the cell or external lenses in the case of “concentrated PV” required to intercept a specific flux density of sunlight. As shown above increases of efficiency can be made with dual cells and even three cells which have a theoretical maximum efficiency of 55%. However this requires breaking down the spectrum into discreet energy bands which are then focused on semiconductors that are spectrally “tuned” to generate maximum voltage. This requires specialized dichroic prisms or filters and lenses. It also requires exotic semiconductor materials in terms of elemental components. This technique is sometimes referred to as “concentrated PV solar.”
A more common use of the term “Concentrated PV” applies to the use of individual lenses which are used to focus or concentrate great energy flux density onto a smaller surface area of solar cell silicon semiconductor. The purported advantage of this approach is a reduction of the cost of silicon and other fundamental elements used in the semiconductor portion of the cell. This can be accomplished with lenses or parabolic reflectors. This results in a considerable price disadvantage when the cost of power per square meter is considered and the assemblies are complex and do not lend themselves to mass production; certainly not at one per second. Additional cost disadvantages of this approach are the extremely high temperature the solar cell is subjected too which must be dissipated by water cooled metal heat sinks. Whereas some advocates of this approach suggest the hot water traveling through the heat sinks has value, the fact of the matter is it does not. The water will never be hot enough to drive steam turbines for power generation and the solar sites are too far away for use in building heating systems.
Examples of a lens and a mirror concentrated PV system are shown below.
In the case of lens based Concentrated PV Panels, the use of lenses requires a separation between the lenses and the solar cells based on the focal length of the lenses. This contributes to the complexity of the structure as well as to overall weight and cost. And the fundamental bottom line is that the mirrors or lenses DO NOT increase the amount of collected sun radiation per square meter of land. If anything they significantly increase the amount of land required because of the exotic construction. As can be seen Concentrated PV is not an appropriate solution for grid level power generation.
Follow this link for an example of a government subsidized study to determine the feasibility of a concentrated Photo Voltaic solar configuration.
Concentrated Solar should not be confused with PV Concentrated Solar as it was in one popular article in the9billion site where in the last paragraph they made reference to the Gemasolar plant in Spain.
Concentrated Solar works by creating water steam pressure, or in some case vaporized salts pressure, by focusing sun rays captured by tens of thousands (or in the case of the Ivanpah project in California, 170,000+) of mirrors and focusing those beams of collected sunlight on a coil located in a tower several hundred feet high. As the liquid or salts vaporize the high pressure turns a steam generator just as in a coal or natural gas fired plant. The initial benefits were thought to be the liquid or molten salts would stay warm for some time thus “building in” natural storage capability and reducing the need for battery storage. However, experience with Ivanpah has shown this does not work and its owners recently petitioned the State of California Public Utilities Commission to allow it to produce up to 30% of its electrical energy output from natural gas. Google is a principal investor in Ivanpah as well as in a molten salts Concentrated Solar project called Crescent Dunes in Nevada. Operating experience is not yet available from Crescent Dunes.
In the case of solar panel manufacturing Moore’s second law is of far greater significance given the huge amount of manufacturing capability needed to produce solar panels in the required multibillion quantities. In the semiconductor business which is the core of the individual solar cells on each panel, as the cost of computer power to the consumer falls, the cost for producers to fulfill Moore’s law follows an opposite trend: R&D, manufacturing, and test costs have increased steadily with each new generation of chips. Rising manufacturing costs are an important consideration for sustaining Moore’s law. This has led to the formulation of Moore’s second law, which is: “The capital cost of a semiconductor fabrication facility also increases exponentially over time.”
We have not found statements by Elon Musk providing percentage of electric power market share predictions. We have found numerous references to his vision and plans: notably, this short article of June 2014 stating that he wants to deliver 10 gigawatts watts of solar panels per year. But what does this mean? Does it mean panels will deliver 10 gigawatts of power 24 hours a day, 365 days a year to electricity users – or does it mean he wants to install 10 gigawatts of panels which are specified to deliver that amount of power under controlled STC (standard test conditions?) There is a big difference.
An examination of a Solar World Sunmodule SW 250 panel shows it to consist of 60 cells 156 mm X 156 mm producing a solar panel approximately 1.46 m2. The panel is advertised to deliver 250 Watts of electricity under laboratory STC conditions. The specification provides an IV curve– where I is current in amperes and V is voltage. Current (amps) X voltage = Watts. Their curve shows that at STC laboratory conditions when the panel is illuminated at 1,000 W/m2 it produces slightly over 250 Watts. The curve also shows that at the assumed insolation defined in Going Solar the amount of electricity is 50 Watts as defined in the insolation averages. Our precise calculation puts the true value at 54.75 Watts.
Thus the actual power generated from one panel averaged over 24 hours, 365 days, is only 21.9% of the output advertised.
Production of 10 gigawatts of power based on the STC maximum 250 Watt capability of the panels would require 40,000,000 panels to be manufactured and delivered each year for Solar City to meet its goals. At a production rate of 1 panel per second they would require 1.27 years to produce.
Production of 10 gigawatts of power based on the insolation factor of 37.5% Watts/m2 with operating panels in the real world would require 250,102,040 panels to be manufactured and delivered each year for Solar City to meet its goals. At a production rate of 1 panel per second it would require 7.93 years to produce.
This is another example of Moore’s second law at work:
SolarCity states they want to deliver 10 gigawatts of solar panels yearly. The capital required to build the process capability to manufacture at the run rate of 40,000,000 panels per year is enormous. Note this is for the solar panels only. Additional requirements apply to the electrical inverters required to convert the low voltage DC to 240-120 volts AC required by electricity users.
In actuality the number of panels required to provide 10 gigawatts of power 24 hours a day 7 days a week is much larger. The capital required to build the process capability to manufacture at the run rate of 250,102.040 panels per year is astronomical. And no consideration has been publicly stated about the DC to AC inverters and batteries required to support 24 hour, 365 day electricity generation.
Mr. Musk originally conceived the idea of solar power to market his Tesla Motors products based on “green” PR. This white paper from the Tesla Motors web site shares that vision. The business plan was developed in 2005 on a trip to “Burning Man” in Nevada with his cousins and Mr. Musk agreed to fund what became SolarCity and remains Chairman and major stockholder.
Tesla Motor’s website indicates that its Model S has a minimum range of 302 miles based on a fully charged 85kWh battery. Representative curves of range and electricity consumption in kWh are provided on their website although there are no specific curves relating to acceleration and the slope of the road meaning grade or going uphill.
Driving up hill requires considerably more energy than static elevation driving. And it relates to the velocity or speed and the slope of the hill in combination with the amount of weight in the car. The greater the load, the higher the velocity and the greater the slope, the faster the batteries drain. Add acceleration while going uphill and the batteries are drained even faster. The relationship between mass, time, slope and velocity is a complex one requiring calculus to solve and plot.
Tesla Motors website claims that a small carport sized solar panel configuration can provide enough electricity for a typical days’ worth of driving and still contribute power to the grid. Based on Tesla’s stated range of 302 miles per charge of 85 kWh, the car would obtain a range of 36 miles assuming a home solar panel system of 11.1 square meters (119.5 square feet) of panels based on the 37.5 Watt insolation factor providing 10kWh per twenty-four hours. As can be seen it would take over 8 days to fully charge the car’s batteries assuming zero use. This is opposite Tesla’s inference that the small carport solar system can support all the car’s electricity needs apart from the power grid. The cost of a 11.1 m2 solar system with batteries rated at 10 kWh (in the event a home owner wants to be independent from the grid) would cost over $10,000.
Google has been shown to have a direct and significant business interest in “green energy” and specifically solar. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been invested and government subsidies obtained.
Google’s Chairman, Eric Schmidt, was a campaign advisor and major donor to Barack Obama and served on Google’s government relations team. President Obama considered him for Commerce Secretary. Schmidt was an informal advisor to the Obama presidential campaign and began campaigning the week of October 19, 2008, on behalf of the candidate. He was mentioned as a possible candidate for the Chief Technology Officer position, which President Obama created in his administration. After President Obama won in 2008, Schmidt became a member of President Obama’s transition advisory board. He proposed that the easiest way to solve all of the problems of the United States at once, at least in domestic policies, is by a stimulus program that rewards renewable energy and, over time, attempts to replace fossil fuels with renewable energy. He has since become a new member of the President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology
Tesla has likewise been shown to have a direct and significant business interest in “green energy” and specifically solar. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been invested and government subsidies obtained.
SolarCity also has a direct and significant business interest is “green energy” and specifically solar. It too has invested hundreds of millions of dollars and obtained major government subsidies.
It is to be expected that key personnel such as Mr. Kurzweil and Mr. Musk would be passionate in their position adopted by each company.
Cost of 100% solar PV Generation
A simple worksheet showing the system component costs for the 1100 GW solar-only generation system involves over 20 years, assuming the system has a 25-year life cycle due to solar panel degradation, and requires two battery replacement cycles, based on the life expectancy of Lithium ion batteries in ruggedized application. Labor has not been calculated due to the uncertainties of installing a system in which over 900 years are required to manufacture core components. It is obvious however, that a large work force will be required to install the yearly run rate of 31.5 million panels based on a turnout of 1 panel per second.
29.3 billion 1 m2 equivalent PV panels at $125.00 each = $3.67T
4.4 million battery modules as defined in “Going Solar” at $750,000 each = $3.3T
Steel, mounting material, and assorted electronics controls, transformers = $1.5T
Copper and Aluminum for wiring and interconnection = $50B
Land acquisition of 58,666 km2 or 14,496,368 acres at an average price of $5,000 per acre = $72,481,840,000
Steel and related construction material = $750 B
First battery change out $3.3 T = $16.59T
Second battery change out $3.3T = $20.55T (3,260 batteries per year) for 20 years
The total 20 year “overnight cost” of the system is $15.93 trillion dollars
The Utility Industry:
The United States has a current generating capacity of approximately 440 GW meaning at any point in time 440 GW of electricity are available plus a plant margin of 20% to cover maintenance, breakdowns, unplanned peak demands and other emergencies. The following chart shows estimated plant retirement based on age. The utility plant life cycle for a large 500-MW-and-up plant is 60 years meaning the plant must be designed and built to last 60 years with continuous around the clock operation and minimal downtown for maintenance.
As can be seen above the utility generation capacity is relatively stable for the next eight years. Given the regulated nature of utilities and wholesale power providers there is little incentive to invest in more plant capacity other than that required to maintain parity at 2014 levels. By 2025 a significant percentage of the nuclear generation capacity will be off-line as will much of the natural gas (and coal) generation capacity. By 2035 an additional 50 GW of plan capacity must be on-line. The utility plant licensing application to operations cycle is about 10 years. Utilities’ first choice is to have additional coal plants built to carry us through 2050 at present capacity, with a 50% increase to cover demands from the partial electrification of the transportation system. However the EPA’s opposition to coal power under the current administration creates too much risk for investors. Thus natural gas plants will be the preferred choice. The technology exists today and the cost of construction and operations fits the needed profile.
Utilities at the CEO level are not swayed by the social movement and Silicon Valley trends of “going green.” The industry is part of an annual energy industry with annual revenues in excess of three trillion dollars and is well run based on 100 years of business experience and attention to the demands of both regulators and shareholders.
In 2005, the Department of Energy in partnership with green industry firms and environmental groups issued a report partially set forth in the form of an 18 FAQ report. Roughly one half of the Q&As relate to perceived global warming based on CO2 emissions from the utility company. The chart below, produced in October 2014 indicates there has been no appreciable “global warming” over the last 18 years. It should be noted that there are serious errors in physics and the presentation of data in this Q&A. The most obvious is their statement that it will require 185,000 square kilometers to produce all electricity in the U.S. from solar and they compare that to the size of the state on South Dakota. The true number is 1/6th of that, as demonstrated in “Going Solar”.
Yet many solar companies link directly to this extremely rosy and optimistic FAQ, in so far as solar energy goes. Oftentimes, as is the case of SolarCity, this is done on an investor’s section of the web site and is meant to influence the investment community.
This detailed tutorial shows the thermodynamics of Earth’s atmosphere to have great tolerance for carbon dioxide with no increase in atmospheric, land or ocean temperatures.
The principal drivers of the “green energy” movement today are the public and political leadership’s perception of climate change. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been invested by industry, environmental groups and foundations to mold the need for green energy in the public’s mind and hence its leadership. However over the next few years this “green fad” will likely have dissipated.
As a matter of economics, solar is immediately disqualified as a suitable material energy source based on its extremely low energy flux density, as shown in this comparison of conventional fuel energy sources. (Scroll up for future fusion energy comparisons and scroll down for current green energy comparisons.) Today a 2.5 GW nuclear (fission) power plant can be built for 2.5 billion dollars. The entire US 440 GW generation capacity with 20% margin could be met with 212 nuclear plants sited on existing coal and natural gas plants without major land acquisition costs and for an overnight cost of $528 billion. The “giga solar plant” defined in “going Solar” would have an aggregate cost of over $8 trillion dollars, excluding the cost of construction, and the acquisition of roughly 59,000 square kilometers or 22,780 square miles needed to site 29.333 billion 1 m2 solar collection devices.
Replacing battery modules will cost $3.3 trillion dollars every 10 years — and operating costs as well as panel life cycle and MTBF are incalculable today. In a most likely scenario, the solar panels would all have to be replaced every 25 years due to the effects of solar radiation and weather.
The utility industry is “risk averse” in every sense of the phrase. No utility CEO in the country would support solar on such a grand scale. Today utilities embrace solar only because of regulatory demands and the positive PR value — and then, only for very small amounts of power, such as that supplied by First Solar and its Topaz project in CA, the Aqua Caliente project in AZ, and the Silver State North project in NV. These supply what the industry refers to as “peaking” levels of power and oftentimes a symbolic statement encouraged by the local politicians.
First Solar was the leader in installing large projects for grid level use. In a December 2012 RenewEconomy interview with First Solar CEO James Hughes, he made the following comments regarding utility grid level parity:
“Everyone wants to talk about “grid parity” – I’ve banned that phrase from the lexicon of First Solar. Electricity has value only at a point in time and a geographic place. There is no magic number that describes the true economic cost of electricity. You may have a tariff structure that describes it that way, but that is not the reality, and frankly, sophisticated power markets don’t operate like that. So you have to look at time of day, season and location to determine the true cost of power, and there are lots of times of day, seasons and locations where solar is economic today without subsidy. So our focus is to find those places, find those times of day, and find those market structures where we can apply ourselves.”
The government’s role, past, present, and future.
Over the last decade, the government has principally focused on the possibility of catastrophic anthropogenic global warming (AGW) or climate change caused by man’s use of fossil fuels. This focus, in conjunction with the asserted need to stimulate the economy with “green jobs,” has led to tens of billions of dollars being invested in solar research, tax credits and subsidies. Furthermore, it has shaped government policy with regard to energy policy and the EPA’s effective cap on the construction of new fossil fuel plants and a push to limit per capita energy availability of energy as expressed in the MOU signed by the EPA and the United Nations Environment Programme.
More recently, the government has taken note of other viewpoints and the connection between green energy and financial abuse as exhibited in a recent United States Senate staff report.
The EPA must be made aware of the fact that energy demand will increase significantly as companies like Tesla Motors and Nisan Leaf begin selling statistically meaningful numbers of electric vehicles. The only current solutions to meet this demand is through fossil fuel utility-scale generation plants and the installed base of operating nuclear plants. The government should be discouraging “fossil fuel disinvestment,” as it is counterproductive to the nation’s national security, industry needs, and and economic health and growth.
In “Physics for future Presidents”, Dr. Robert Muller made note of Tesla Motors and the emerging electric car. Tesla has made great strides in its battery module since that book was first released. The fact that Tesla has achieved the range it has is of merit. One gallon of gasoline is equivalent to 36 kWh of electricity. A typical 18 gallon automobile fuel tank is equal to 648 kWh of electricity; the Tesla Model S has an 85 kWh battery module. However, all those batteries must be charged from clean, abundant, affordable, and reliable electricity.
Similarly the U.S. Senate Environment and Public Works Committee has issued a report calling for Critical Thinking on Climate Change in light of new scientific findings and inaccuracies of the IPPC predictions.
Focus should now turn to the viable replacement of fossil fuels this century simply because they are finite and the national security, and financial wellbeing of the country…indeed the entire world…depends on it. This is an issue of enormous importance, yet few policy makers are aware of it and little effort is being placed on potential (non-solar) solutions.
Public perception.
The perception of the public has been heavily influenced by the media and by the large number of “solar companies” selling home solar systems to augment grid level power: largely subsidized by government subsidies to both the solar companies and end users through tax credits and high “feed in tariffs”.
The public is largely disinterested in science and hence lacks the knowledge to properly evaluate solar’s place, but has nonetheless embraced a false solution that has a negative cash flow solution funded by their tax dollars. That level of enthusiasm poured over when a “Solar Road” project was launched on one of the “crowd source funding sites which raised over $2 million dollars for the project’s sponsors.
The solar deception (for grid level base load electricity generation)
In Mr. Diamandis’ article he set forth his concept of the 6Ds as Digitized, Deceptive, Disruptive, Dematerialized, Demonetized, and Democratized.
Solar is indeed in a deceptive phase. Much misinformation abounds:
· In Dr. Robert Muller’s “Physics for future Presidents” well publicized book he states both directly and through a contrived “ideal student named Liz” that “there is a gigawatt of power in a square kilometer of sunlight and that’s about the same as a (small) nuclear power plant.” Non-scientists would take that statement at face value. 1 km X 1 km = 1 million square meters X 1,000 Watts = 1 billion Watts or a gigawatt. A civil engineer would say “we can build that…in time.” However, in reality you must take into consideration the fact that the Sun is only shinning 12 hours per day, plus regional insolation factors, and then add in margin for maintenance, emergencies and losses in battery charge discharge cycles. Thus all of a sudden, our 1 million square meters only provides an equivalent of grid base load power of 37.5 megawatts which is 8.5% of U.S. current on-line generation capacity. For the record, “Liz” is Dr. Muller’s daughter.
· Dr. Lewis, Dr. Tsao, and Dr. Crabtree prepared a report stating “To supply the power that the U.S. consumed in 2001 (3.24 TW) with similarly efficient solar conversion systems would require a correspondingly smaller surface area, (6) A3.24TW = A15TW · (3.24/15), = 858,792 km2 · (3.24/15) = 185,500 km2. This is roughly 1.9% of the surface area (9,631,418 km2), and 2.0% of the land area (9,161,923 km2), of the U.S. (CIA 2005).”
· Neither is correct. If Lewis, Tsao, et al, were correct it would require 185 billion 1 square meter solar panels to produce our current 440GW generation capacity 24 hours a day 7 days a week. If these panels could be produced and installed at the rate of 1 per second it would take 5,886 years to complete the fabrication and installation.
· The correct required solar collection surface area is 1,100,000,000,000 ÷ 37 sq meters, made up from 29.333 billion, 1-meter-square panels, covering an area of 29,333 km2 (7,248,000 acres, or nearly the area of Maryland and Delaware combined) or a square with sides of 171.3 km long. If these panels could be produced and installed at the rate of 1 per second, it would take 929 years to manufacture 29.3 billion panels.
It is easy to see how people can become blinded and deceived, given the media exposure of the “go solar” campaign, coupled with difficulty in obtaining scientifically correct information and then analyzing it.
It is also easy to see how corporate interests and subsidy seeking are best served by letting the ambiguities remain unsettled.
And we can forgive Mr. Musk, Mr. Kurzweil and his boss Mr. Schmidt (who took this vision all the way to the President of the United States), who in turn made available huge sums of money to fund the vision. In all likelihood they simply did not calculate the numbers associated with the manufacturing run rate, necessary land acquisition, and installation issues. It is easy to be deceived when so many zeros are involved in the mathematical calculations, and that is coupled with wishful thinking.
Both Google and Tesla are making enormous contributions to our society and economy, which will require enormous amounts of clean, abundant, practical energy. Google is perfecting its “machine driven” car, using the research and expertise of Dr. Kurzweil in artificial intelligence and machine learning. Undoubtedly these cars will be electric to a large extent. And Tesla Motors is increasing sales of its electric cars and its battery production.
All those cars and batteries will place an enormous strain on our electrical generation capacity.
Google is in the business of connecting people and making information broadly available to everyone. It would be prudent for both companies to look beyond solar, wind, and the other available green energy sources — and help educate the public and political establishment, promote an informed collaborative effort to define and develop the next generation of green energy, as well as exploit those currently discussed.
To Google’s enormous credit, two of its “green energy project” scientists, Dr. Ross Koninstein & Dr. David Fork authored an article titled “What It Would Really Take to Reverse Climate Change; Today’s renewable energy technologies won’t save us. So what will?” published by the IEEE Spectrum on November 18, 2014. The article concludes with a section stating:
“A disruptive fusion technology, for example, might skip the steam and produce high-energy charged particles that can be converted directly into electricity. For industrial facilities, maybe a cheaply synthesized form of methane could replace conventional natural gas. Or perhaps a technology would change the economic rules of the game by producing not just electricity but also fertilizer, fuel, or desalinated water….”
Investor’s Business daily published an on-line article titled “Google Scientists Admit Renewable Energy Can’t Work” on November 11, 2014. The article noted “…the most remarkable admission from Google is that the technology just doesn’t work — at least not now. Two of the lead scientists on the RE<C project, Ross Koningstein and David Fork, both with Stanford, wrote the following devastating critique of the future of green energy in an article posted at IEEE Spectrum: “At the start of RE<C, we had shared the attitude of many stalwart environmentalists: We felt that with steady improvements to today’s renewable energy technologies, our society could stave off catastrophic climate change. We now know that to be a false hope….”
“Google’s setbacks in green energy were even more embarrassing when the company also had to admit it couldn’t even power its own data centers with the solar paneling it had installed. According to the company statement:
“The plain truth is that the electric grid, with its mix of renewable and fossil generation, is an extremely useful and important tool for a data center operator, and with current technologies, renewable energy alone is not sufficiently reliable to power a data center.”
Try lighting up a whole city.
Not to be out done, Tesla recently announced its Powerwall product which is available in 7 kWh or 10 kWh configurations.
The U.S. Energy Information Administration states that the average annual 2013 electricity consumption for a U.S. residential utility customer was 10,908 kilowatt-hours (kWh), an average of 909 kWh per month. Louisiana had the highest annual consumption at 15,270 kWh, and Hawaii had the lowest at 6,176 kWh. However that average figure is annualized and does not allow for peak power used on days when the clothes are dried or the air conditioner is running. Furthermore a residential electricity user who averages 909 kWh per month uses 30 kWh per day which is three times the Tesla 10kWh Powerwall. And this places even more demands on sizing the solar panel array as it must generate an equivalent amount of power (30kWh) over say five to seven hours to be available to the customer over a 24 hour period.
However it gets even more complicated and expensive, depending on one’s geographic location. Why? Because many people do not live in the sunny southwest but rather live in areas of the country which may have several cloudy days in a row. On cloudy days the solar system produces a very small fraction of its normal power. Thus, one would have to have enough Powerwall batteries to provide household power for multiple days when it is cloudy and the Photovoltaic panel array would have to be sized sufficiently large to fully charge all the Powerwall batteries. Thus a $20,000 system rapidly becomes a $200,000 system. This is a very important point because no one wants to wake up with food in the freezer thawing and being unable to cook it in their microwave oven.
As explained in our “Going Solar” analysis, the solar energy industry has detailed regional information it refers to as “insolation” which correlates the actual number of radiant watts per meter squared on a yearly averaged basis. This takes into account latitude, longitude, climatic conditions and length of sunshine per day. Generally speaking the further north one goes the less radiant energy there is, due to atmospheric absorption. Likewise, areas of fog and high relative humidity preform less well.
So in reality a considerably larger battery Powerwall is required if residential electricity users are to maintain their current standard of living and “go off grid.” A publically available report on the Powerwall explains details and a review published by the AP.
And it should be stressed that the above analysis is for home power only. It does not consider charging the batteries of a Tesla or other electric car which is described in an earlier section of this article.
On May 1, 2015, a video was published by Tesla Motors titled: “Elon Musk Debuts the Tesla Powerwall.” In the video Mr. Musk explains that Tesla company is “basically Tesla Energy” and that their mission is to replace all fossil fuels with power obtained from “the handy fusion reactor in the sky” using solar photovoltaic panels and batteries to store the power when the sun does not shine.
A Complete written transcript of Mr. Musk’s presentation is available as a PDF download
The point is made that this requires only a small land area he refers to as the “blue square.” The blue square is shown superimposed on a map and located in the Northwest portion of the Texas Panhandle. The image cannot be reconciled to the numbers we have calculated based on our analysis of the required land area.
Professor Andrew Smith of the University College London Energy Institute posted that the “Blue Square” appears to be reconciled at 10,000 km2.
Our analysis shows something very different. The fact of the matter is that 29,333 km2 of active surface area solar cells (the solid state electronic component which converts photons from sun energy into electricity) are required to provide U.S. baseload power based on 2013 generation capacity 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. This does not include the inert solar panel area nor the spacing between rows of panels to allow installation and maintenance of panels and site location for battery modules with low voltage DC to high voltage AC converters. In reality considerably more land surface area than the 29,333 km2 is required.
Near the end of the video, it is inferred that the solar panels and batteries would be installed on a distributed basis meaning on residential homes and businesses and that no large land area is needed. The article referenced and linked above points out this is cost prohibitive many times over based on today’s current electricity prices. Moreover the PV panels have a life expectancy of less than 25 years and the battery life is less than 10 years at best.
From an engineering standpoint Tesla will in all likelihood state that the best configuration is a hybrid based on the disintegration of the strong, resilient, robust, power grid regulated by public policy for the public good. Their solution would be to replace the current power grid with “micro grids” of interconnected homes using solar panels and battery packs which would average out local supply and demand. However, the power distribution system is complicated and the solar generated power must be converted from low voltage DC to much higher voltage AC power using the Tesla power pack. Such a proposal would demonstrate a lack of understanding of AC power theory and the difficulty of AC parallel circuits where power is injected at multiple points in a network. In such a configuration a tremendous amount of the home generated power injected on the “micro grid” would be lost in heat due to dynamic real time changes in power factor or reactive power considerations, and the inability to precisely match frequency and phase angles as we explain in this technical article’s “engineering challenges” associated with storage and distributed generation.
Perhaps a better use of Tesla’s “giga factory” and their management capability would be to manufacture very large battery modules needed for power grid use as discussed in the storage technologies article. That could justify investment by the utility industry and supported by the rate base under full disclosure with transparent bidding and sales contracts.
Conclusions:
· Mssrs Diamandis, Kurzweil, and Musk are all patriotic high achieving citizens.
· All three have business reasons to promote green energy based on the perceived belief that utility CO2 power plant emissions affect the climate and that in today’s world of scientific state-of-the-art solar is the best solution.
· Tesla Motors is a great company and the electric car is a great idea. However as more and more are built, we must generate much more electricity to charge their batteries. Today, setting nuclear aside due to public perception, fossil fuel electricity is the lowest cost, and most reliable.
· Solar in fact is not an appropriate utility baseload grid level solution based on cost, required land area, operational expenses, and short life cycle.
· Solar can be effective for individual corporate and a small percentage of residential customers willing to pay the high up-front costs and long payback periods.
· Unsubsidized Solar has applicability in rural areas and developing countries with low population density and extended time before they will be connected to a power grid.
· Allowing the public to develop a false sense of security, believing solar is going to meet the country’s energy demands, is neither prudent nor responsible.
· The financial well-being of the country in two to three decades depends on energy decisions that must be made over the next 2 to 5 years.
· The National Security interests of the country are not best served by solar or even the suggestion that it may be a viable solution.
· A definite need exists for a scientific breakthrough in a very high energy flux density energy source.
· A corresponding business opportunity presents itself to an entity(ies) that are willing to take the risk and fund the science, engineering, and R&D leading to such a breakthrough and subsequent commercialization. Atomic fusion is the only realistic solution to the extent we discount nuclear fission.
· On November 9, 2006 Google recorded a presentation made by Dr. Robert Busard at their facility. Dr. Busard explained the need to solve fusion before fossil fuels run out. At 2 minutes 45 seconds, Dr. Busard makes the point that most of the very bright and talented engineers at Google do not have the physics and math background to understand fusion because Google is an IT company, and hence most of its technical staff has a computer science and IT background. The Google Talks presentation is on-line.
· Google is in the business of bringing information to people throughout the world. Google should augment its investments in solar and other current green power by bringing people, knowledge, and a crowd source like a project to “solve energy” for the world as Dr. Busard mentioned.
· Google must provide honest, accurate, non-utopian, apolitical information to the public and political establishment, so that we can make informed decisions that will best serve the vital and complex needs of our entire nation – and not merely the selfish or ill-informed interests of certain industrial, political, financial or environmentalist factions.
[This essay has been updated to correct some punctuation and formatting errors along with a new more accurate spectral chart on 7/31/15]
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What a great post. Thank you so very much.
I would add that if the government would get out of the way and let a free market decide, then there would be plenty of inexpensive electrical power. I would guess that coal, gas, and thorium would dominate the market with thorium mostly winning in the long run. (sorry, I don’t know what I mean exactly by “the long run”)
I do know one thing for sure and that is that we were told here in Florida way before the current CO2 hysteria that solar was the cheapest way to heat our pools and homes. That proved to be untrue in the real world.
“…we were told here in Florida…”
We are STILL being told in Florida…
Fixed it for ya.
I agree this is a great post. Will take me some time to digest the different aspects but at least it is a great starting point.
I do not understand the fixation on thorium. Thorium is just a nuclear fuel as is uranium. We have plenty of both. The real discussion should be on nuclear technology. There is the current water cooled reactors, different types of breeder reactors, pebble bed reactors, high temperature liquid cooled reactors, and my favorite, liquid fuel reactors.
China is working on all of the above. They seem to be the only ones who are willing to make the investments necessary to make it happen. It will be interesting to see what rolls out of China in the next 10 years.
There is much more Thorium available, than Uranium.
“Silver ralph” The Thorium community is fond of saying that Thorium has a less aggressive radioactive waste series. However, the actinide decay chain is similar to uranium & plutonium and is, in fact, complicated by heavy gamma ray radiation. This is very problematic in reactor design and instrumentation as well as in the disposal of the radioactive waste. Furthermore, Thorium is a fertile material not a fissile material which means it must operate in conjunction with uranium in a thorium/uranium fuel cycle. The thorium community will also say that thorium cannot be used in weapons programs. However uranium 233 can be breed from thorium which in turn can be weaponized. Thorium is no fission utopia. Fission is fission. It is a bridge now to the future but it must be replaced by fusion sooner than later. Edward Teller and Ralph Moir wrote a definitive paper on the potential use of Thorium in Molten Salts Reactors in 2004. A PDF is available at: http://fusion4freedom.us/science/moir_teller-thorium.pdf To learn more about the facts regarding Thorium see: http://www.whatisnuclear.com/articles/thorium.html#downsides See also this Scientific fact based report on Thorium from the World Nuclear Association: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Current-and-Future-Generation/Thorium/
You are correct, Tomer. Thorium breeding may have a role to play hundreds of years from now. Now, it is just a very expensive way to produce uranium.
I must point out that the gamma problem is undefined. U.S. experiments with thorium in neutron flux did produce small quantities of the ultra-nasty, gamma-emitting U-232. These experiments used thorium targets in conventional fission reactors. What will happen in other types of reactor configurations is unknown. It may be no problem. We won’t know til it’s tried. It is possible that U-232 may kill a $10,000,000,000 project. It’s good that the Chinese are going to try it out for us. Meanwhile, we have conventional sources of uranium for centuries.
Thorium is a fertile element not a fissile element. It can only be used in fission reactions in a thorium/uranium fuel cycle. The actinide decay product chain (radioactive waste composition of radioactive elements) is very similar to that of U233 and U235 however thorium has a very heavy gamma radiation component that is problematic in reactors and very dangerous in the waste products. The “thorium community” says thorium can not be weaponized, however uranium 233 can be breed from thorium in reactors which can be weaponized. Fission is fission. It is a good bridge to fusion over the next couple of decades. In the future fusion can be used to transmutate a hundred years of accumulated radioactive waste from 400+ reactors around the world to non radioactive waste as well which is in it self a huge business revenue producing opportunity. For the REAL FACTS on thorium please follow this link to: http://www.whatisnuclear.com/articles/thorium.html
Fusion power is “pie in the sky”. I have been waiting for more than fifty years for fusion. At this point what is the longest fusion reaction? Is it still measured in microseconds or have we made it to milliseconds yet? Let’s face it we won’t be able to control a fusion reaction until we are able to control gravity. It is the only possible way to contain the plasma. Since we have no idea how to control gravity this won’t happen soon. Thorium reactors have been made and they work.
“Matt Bergin” To learn the current status of fusion power go to my http://www.fuelrfuture.com website. It is an extensive site taking many years of work to produce. Note my article “Who Killed Fusion” and its derivative 8 part series I wrote with pat Boone in Hollywood for non-scientists. Find the Science section and Fusion science section. Drop down to Innovative Confinement and the PJMIF (Plasma Jet Magneto Inertial Fusion) section and my white paper (I am co-author along with about 7 others…) See also the fusion news section and the fusion video section.
Regarding your comments about thorium please note that the Thorium community is fond of saying that Thorium has a less aggressive radioactive waste series. However, the actinide decay chain is similar to uranium & plutonium and is, in fact, complicated by heavy gamma ray radiation. This is very problematic in reactor design and instrumentation as well as in the disposal of the radioactive waste. Furthermore, Thorium is a fertile material not a fissile material which means it must operate in conjunction with uranium in a thorium/uranium fuel cycle. The thorium community will also say that thorium cannot be used in weapons programs. However uranium 233 can be breed from thorium which in turn can be weaponized. Thorium is no fission utopia. Fission is fission. It is a bridge now to the future but it must be replaced by fusion sooner than later. Edward Teller and Ralph Moir wrote a definitive paper on the potential use of Thorium in Molten Salts Reactors in 2004. A PDF is available at: http://fusion4freedom.us/science/moir_teller-thorium.pdf To learn more about the facts regarding Thorium see: http://www.whatisnuclear.com/articles/thorium.html#downsides See also this Scientific fact based report on Thorium from the World Nuclear Association: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Current-and-Future-Generation/Thorium/
If you have any specific questions on fusion please feel free to direct them to me at tt@usclcorp.com or call me at +1-916-482-2020. Thank you for your comment. Regards, T. D. Tamarkin
But if the amount of money that has been wasted on Climate Science/CAGW had instead been invested in nuclear, who knows whether fusion would now be a reality.
We have wasted vast sums of money on what was obviously a non issue, or an issue where adaption would be the best response, to the detriment of future generations.
” I have been waiting for more than fifty years for fusion. At this point what is the longest fusion reaction? Is it still measured in microseconds or have we made it to milliseconds yet? ”
…
http://www.adelphitech.com/products/dt110.html
“Joel D. Jackson” To answer your question please see our website at http://www.fuelrfuture.com. Find the science section and review it as well as the fusion news section and the fusion videos. Also see my white paper (I am a co-author along with about 7 others) at: http://fuelrfuture.com/development-of-practical-fusion-power-plasma-jet-driven-magneto-inertial-fusion/
Tomer D. Tamarkin I didn’t ask a question.
…
I just pointed out to Matt Bergin that “fusion” has been available for decades.
…
It is not a net energy producer, but can occur in devices called “neutron sources” for laboratories and other applications.
..
Breakeven in a confined reaction hasn’t happened yet….there are a few competing ideas being tried, but the only net release of significant amounts of energy here on earth from fusion has been uncontrolled detonation.
Sounds like you did not review my website at http://www.fuelrfuture.com and its science section, fusion science, videos and my co-authored white paper on Plasma Jet Magneto Inertial Fusion. You should.
The accountants and politicians who run our society like to think that technological advance is purely a function of money – that you shop for new technology like buying things at the supermarket; as if all we need to do is decide to put solar power or fusion or whatever in our shopping cart to make it happen. The reality is that money is not usually the main constraint blocking technological advance, and throwing money around often doesn’t help. It just confuses matters by inflating the number of people running fruitlessly around in circles pretending to look for a solution for a problem they don’t know how to solve. Technological advance is constrained mostly by the limits of what is possible. In many cases breakthroughs are required to enable new technology. Those can’t be purchased on some kind of schedule.
Still waiting for my flying car.
Tomer D. Tamarkin I’ll visit your website when/if you and your group of researches hit breakeven.
Ian H: “Still waiting for my flying car.”
..
http://www.terrafugia.com/
Matt Bergin
July 29, 2015 at 11:38 am
Thorium reactors have been made and they work.
==========================
Can I get some of what you are smoking?
I have never seen it claimed that the fusion energy extracted from the LL Nova “whack-a-mole” machine has yet exceeded the energy required to build the fuel packet that they scrunched.
I would consider break even to mean that they extract more (usable) energy from the fusion reaction, than it took to fire the laser beam.
I’m a little puzzled by the paper that said the D-T fusion reaction yields 14.1 MeV neutrons, but the D-D fusion only gives about 2 1/2 MeV.
55 years ago I built a neutron detector (scintillation) and also a “Tissue Equivalent” neutron monitor, to use in a lab that fired Deuterons, at a heavy ice target, deposited on a copper heat sink, with a 600 kV Cockroft Walton accelerator.
I’m pretty darn sure that the fast neutrons that were produced were 14 MeV, and not 2 1/2.
I think you also got reactions that produced protons. Maybe they were the 14 MeV product.
The monitor used a proportional gas counter, that responded to neutrons equivalent to the tissue damage in human tissue, and covered all the way from thermal neutrons to the 14 MeV range.
The Physicists were studying the polarization of the proton and neutron beams; while the theorists, were trying to calculate all of that from models, or QM.
Detection of the neutron by scintillation operated by generating a “knock on” proton in the scintillator crystal (Stilbene or Anthracene). Gammas are also detected from electrons emitted from the material. My detector, could discriminate between alpha, beta, and gamma or neutron radiation, and count each one independently of the others.
Well I didn’t get too far into the actual D-D collision reactions, so I don’t recall exactly what the reactions were. But I don’t recall us having any T around anywhere.
Well, the heavens may split open and take me, but I am lining up with Joel Jackson on this one.
Never thought I would see the day.
I just cannot get behind the pessimism of this article. Sorry.
Being smart/educated doesn’t guarantee good decisions. Look at (the otherwise genius) Edison backing DC for electric utilities despite all the evidence that AC was the only reasonable option.
Or IBM deciding not to go into the personal computer market because they didn’t foresee anyone needing or wanting a personal computer.
Wrote a printer driver for Kodak in c.1997. Smartest customers ever, by a long shot. Predicting the future is difficult.
You’re thinking of DEC, not IBM. IBM “legitimized” the personal computer, especially in commercial markets.
They are now out of that business, because the profit margins are too low. Lenovo (in China) bought it out and is doing okay. My primary computer at work is a Lenovo Thinkpad.
I really wish DEC had put forward an LSI PDP-11 running RT11 in the late 1970s, but they wouldn’t consider that because it would impact sales of larger systems. I was at DEC then, in the PDP-10 group, and left around then to join a startup. It occurred to me that while DEC didn’t want to compete against itself, other companies would certainly do so. Some 20 years later, Compaq bought DEC.
IBM still underestimated the popularity of the desk top and the willingness of people to buy them from companies not named IBM. The drop in sales of mainframes came close to putting the company out of business in the late 80’s.
Or radio shack not recognizing that it could have been the best buys of the 80’s for all computers.
Well that’s that then. Back to the drawing board.
If wind doesn’t bankrupt us
Then solar surely will,
Their renewable lunacy
How many poor will it kill?
This is the reality with all the B*ll Sh*t removed, it just goes to show that these people right up to the President have absolutely no idea what they are advocating.
Or do they?
Is it all about the Money and nothing to do with “Saving the Planet”, you bet it is.
Talk of withdrawal of the Green Subsidies has the UK “Green Investors” fleeing like rats from a sinking ship.
As will happen everywhere once the massive subsidies and Loans stop coming.
The money is in the scam, even Warren Buffett knows that – worse yet he is gong to invest $100 Billion into the Green Scam. I would sell my BH stock unless you know of some government program to help insure his profit.
what was originally:
Clean Power Investment Slumps 28% in Quarter Amid Market Turmoil
Highly Cited-Bloomberg-10 Jul 2015
somehow became this in updated Bloomberg piece:
10 July Updated 14 July: Bloomberg: Clean Power Investment Declines ***0.2% to $73.5 Billion
Global investment in clean energy slipped slightly in the second quarter to $73.5 billion…
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-10/clean-power-investment-slumps-28-in-quarter-amid-market-turmoil
***the figures were pretty well detailed in the original, it would seem! on Energy Live News on 10 July, u had the 28% drop to $53 billion:
10 July: Clean energy investment down 28% on 2014
Global clean energy investment fell to $53 billion (£33.3bn) in the second quarter of this year.
That’s 28% less than the same period last year, according to a new report…
Michael Liebreich, Chairman of the advisory board at Bloomberg New Energy Finance said:
how did Bloomberg overlook a full $20 billion of “clean energy” spending in a single quarter when they first wrote the piece?
more detail below, incl especially ***”Most dramatically, venture capital and private equity investment in specialized clean energy companies which totaled a measly $564 million, which was down 31% on Q1 and down 60% on the second quarter of 2014″. obviously the Green Mirage is looking for more public money or for the institutional investors in control of pensions, etc., to get on board. desperation:
11 July: CleanTechnica: Joshua S. Hill: Q2 Clean Energy Investments Continue To Lag Behind 2014
Bloomberg New Energy Finance has released figures showing that clean energy investment sat at $53 billion in the second quarter of 2015, continuing to lag behind 2014 figures.
Investment numbers for Q1 were revised to stand at $54.4 billion, dropping a little bit further to Q2’s $53 billion mark, which itself was a catastrophic 28% down compared to the $73.6 billion recorded in Q2’2014…
There continue to be bright spots in the overall darkness, but these are difficult to focus on considering the seeming negative shift in investment figures…
***Most dramatically, venture capital and private equity investment in specialized clean energy companies which totaled a measly $564 million, which was down 31% on Q1 and down 60% on the second quarter of 2014. These figures are in fact the weakest in any quarter since the third quarter in 2005 for the VC and PE segment, and distressingly far below the peak of $4.2 billion in the third quarter of 2008…
“The low VC/PE total reflects the fact that technologies such as wind and PV are now far more mature, and less open to challenge from young companies,” said Luke Mills, clean energy economics analyst at Bloomberg New Energy Finance…
http://cleantechnica.com/2015/07/11/q2-clean-energy-investments-continue-lag-behind-2014/
I can barely believe it but there a plans for a solar farm here. It just seems so unlikely.
http://www.sussexexpress.co.uk/news/county-news/chailey-parish-council-oppose-plans-for-solar-farm-1-6782238
Robin they are trying to get it in before the subsides stop
Well, Robin, the local village idiot left a comment on that report in full support of the solar farm. He reckons it will make the village virtually carbon-free. As if. I just wish people like that were made to live with the consequences of their beliefs.
I didn’t think Chailey was big enough to warrant an idiot, but it is flat and everything drains through one narrow channel at Lewes, have they thought this through. It doesn’t bother me what they do at Chailey, the cows would probably enjoy it, nosey things cows. If it wasn’t on a flood plain you might think they wanted to convert green field to brown field so they could build on it.
Ric Werme.
DEC had some really nice hardware and a lot of it is still running 40 yeRs on with third party support.
Back in the late 70’s and early 80’s a bunch of back room boys where I worked got tired of the high “cycle” costs of using the company PDP’s and VAX machines and figured out they could run the same or similar engineering programs on Trash 80’s and Victor 9000’s though it took much longer. It didn’t take long for us to figure out using the big hardware for intensive work and using the desktops for terminals and lower level computing. The Victor 9000 (pre IBM PC) could do pretty much everything the big iron could do with not too large a penalty. For more intensive computing, we would set the desktops up to run over night. Paid the cost of using the desktops in a couple of months. When the IT guys noticed their cycle time was down and figured out why, they had a bird and tried to stop it with a corporate driven mandate that “banned” such “unauthorized” computer use.
That worked for about as long as it took to write the memo.
Fun times.
I started my career with a slipstick and ended it with about as much computing power in a hand held as that old big iron.
Thanks for the memories
David Cosserat says: ” There is no viable technology capable of storing the energy generated by solar farms on sunny summer days when people are out and about and not using much electricity”
..
http://phys.org/news/2011-07-gemasolar-solar-thermal-power-hours.html
Batteries already can do it for individual homes. It’s simply a matter of cost. Why would you want to pay monthly fees to a central solar installation when buying your own for no more than the cost of new fridge you would then have zero energy costs?
And just as for solar power, the costs for batteries are also dropping exponentially.
Bob Clark
This is an excellent post – many thanks.
It supports the UK Government’s move to stop subsidies for solar installations. Hopefully the money saved will now be directed towards research into energies that have the potential to replace fossil fuels in the future — fusion, thorium, and newer forms of nuclear fusion.
I wish more in the Green movement would understand what is possible and what is not!!
Wow, a lot of data there. Well, if we start building these billions of solar panels please, someone, please, make sure we in America do the work.
and manufacture the panels.
A couple of years ago, someone posted (not on this site), that covering a desert the size of Morocco with solar panels would provide enough electricity to power the entire globe. I pointed out to them maybe it would, but a facility the same size would be needed in the Southern Hemisphere to produce electricity when the Sun had set at the NH site. It would not bear thinking about if it was cloudy at one or both sites or if a volcanic eruption reduced sunlight or a sandstorm covered the solar panels I also pointed out that is there enough rare earth materials on the planet to manufacture this number of panels?
The whole suggestion is ludicrous and based on the erroneous AGW scare. As Mark Stoval has said Thorium reactors are the way foward.
What would be the environmental impact of mining all those rare earths?
Exactly. And how much (diesel-powered) energy would it require?
Um: not sure if you’re aware that when the sun shines in the NH it is also shining in the SH. I presume you are referring to the day-night at opposing longitudes, not latitudes.
Opposing longitudes and similar latitudes!
Paving Morroco over with solar cells might work, but there are bigger troublemakers on that side of the world that deserve that treatment more. Having visited Maryland and Delaware, I’d be happy to pave both of them over with solar cells – good riddance (except for the western end of Maryland, where some sensible people still struggle to live under the tax burden imposed by the east end). The real problem would be how to move them to a sunnier spot after we’ve paved them?
Maryland and Delaware are small and heavily populated…and not very sunny a lot of the time.
But there are places in the US where this same amount of land would be one mostly barren county, and with a lot more sun to boot.
I hate it when anyone uses phony argument techniques to make a point, no matter what side of a fence they are on.
So just what rare earth materials do you know of that go into solar panels ?
Silicon is NOT a rare earth.
Arsenic, galenium, etc. Read up on the various materials used to dope that silicon. Or did you think they were made of pure silicon?
Silicon is the earth – or most of it!
MarkW,
‘Galenium’ – is that a new element or an alloy of gallium and selenium?
Fantastic piece.
Is it possible to enlarge some of the images so that they become readable?
Several images are not readable, including:
“Estimate U.S. Energy Use In 2013: ~97.4 Quads
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/clip_image039_thumb.jpg?w=624&h=416
“Moore’s Law”
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/clip_image003_thumb1.png?w=525&h=472
With the advent of molten salt nuclear reactors, it is quite impossible to make the case for any other type of power generating technoiology. Molten salt reactors dispel even the most absurd safety concerns about nuclear power and their low build costs and virtually insignificant fuel costs provides economic power production cheaper than any other technology. The fact that these generators donot need to shut down for refuleing and can load-folow, means they can provide power for almost the entire range of demand situations.
Amen brother, amen.
I would like to see someone do a post for this site on that very issue.
OK, now I’ll be serious. Molten salt reactors are definitely appealing – the design looks very safe, and you can use Th, U, Pu, or all three (Thorium’s only real advantage over Uranium is that it is more plentiful). Even spent fuel from the Light Water Reactors and various High Level Waste materials can go in there. The liquid fuel allows continual clean up and reprocessing – that allows the source term to be managed to a very low amount for the life of the plant. Reprocessing the fuel to capture fertile & fissile material for reuse means we can really extend the amount of nuclear fuel available on this planet (from less than 100 years to thousands of years worth – maybe we can figure out fusion by then, but what would be the rush?). I really like the atmospheric pressure on the reactor side of the plant – no big driving force behind leaks or fission product releases, and it makes for much lower reactor side structural material costs (reactor vessel, containment, etc.). Emergency Planning would be very simple. The operating temperatures proposed can support thermal to electrical conversion efficiencies in the 40-45% range, and the secondary side (steam plant) would be no more expensive than for a supercritical fossil plant. – Just think, small footprint (no need to pave entire states with more expensive solar cells), low power cost, no nasty smokestack emissions, and a lot less radioactive waste than we produce now for the same amount of power. The real hassle will be to get through the NRC licensing process – the entire bureaucracy there was based on Light Water Reactors (PWRs and BWRs) – there were few exceptions, like the Ft St. Vrain High Temperature Gas-Cooled Reactor – a very safe square peg jammed into a round hole (too bad we didn’t follow thru with improved versions of that – General Atomics had some sweet ideas left on the drawing board).
The Thorium community is fond of saying that Thorium has a less aggressive radioactive waste series. However, the actinide decay chain is similar to uranium & plutonium and is, in fact, complicated by heavy gamma ray radiation. This is very problematic in reactor design and instrumentation as well as in the disposal of the radioactive waste. Furthermore, Thorium is a fertile material not a fissile material which means it must operate in conjunction with uranium in a thorium/uranium fuel cycle. The thorium community will also say that thorium cannot be used in weapons programs. However uranium 233 can be breed from thorium which in turn can be weaponized. Thorium is no fission utopia. Fission is fission. It is a bridge now to the future but it must be replaced by fusion sooner than later. Edward Teller and Ralph Moir wrote a definitive paper on the potential use of Thorium in Molten Salts Reactors in 2004. A PDF is available at: http://fusion4freedom.us/science/moir_teller-thorium.pdf To learn more about the facts regarding Thorium see: http://www.whatisnuclear.com/articles/thorium.html#downsides See also this Scientific fact based report on Thorium from the World Nuclear Association: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Current-and-Future-Generation/Thorium/
Tomer – I used to make my living operating LWRs and solving their problems. I see no reason to avoid adding Thorium to the mix. Its more abundant than Uranium, which is why it will have to be included if we are to have a long term nuclear power future (Thorium is used to make U233, which having a smaller ‘beta fraction’ – delayed neutrons vs prompt – is a wee bit touchier than U235 in a thermal reactor). The molten salt reactors with continuous cleanup & recycling will greatly reduce the waste produced by fission, and result in shorter-lived actual high level waste (300 year isolation needed instead of 100,000 years to drop to background rates). Fusion does not get away from dealing with high energy gammas or radwaste. The isotopes produced with fusion ( for fusion) will be different, and may require different handling – hopefully less difficult than for fission (expect mostly tritium and various neutron activation products – depends on what the eventual confinement devices / energy capture materials are, and tritium is not always trivial).
Fusion has always been promised as the future, but practical implementation in power plants was 40 years away in 1960, 40 years away in 1980, 40 years away in 2000… Fusion physics is well understood – in the 1950s we proved we can make fusion happen in ridiculous quantities as long as we don’t care about confining it or capturing the energy for practical use or operating a self-supporting sustainable process. We have plenty of examples of self-supporting sustainable process devices, but the closest one is 93 million miles away, has a huge footprint, and we can’t make small ones to carry around yet. Confinement needs a breakthrough – either we have to get very good at controlling high energy plasma at high densities, or some amazing material science breakthrough has to occur – that’s why its always 40 years away – until the breakthrough happens – then its suddenly 10 years, or however long plant permitting and construction takes.
The molten salt reactor processes have all been demonstrated. We don’t need new knowledge or materials. All we lack is the political environment and the will to build them commercially. Using U/Pu/Th in molten salt reactors could provide clean power for the entire world for a thousand years – which should be plenty of time for your fusion breakthrough or something better to come along.
“notfubar” Thank you for your comment. You are preaching to the choir on the use of fission now. And unlike many, you present a reasoned and knowledgeable view on the thorium/uranium fuel cycle. Dr. Edward Teller and Ralph Moir wrote an excellent article on the use of MSR with Thorium (or uranium) in 2004. We have it available at: http://fuelrfuture.com/science/moir_teller-thorium.pdf
Fusion has suffered from a lack of responsible and cohesive management in the U.S. since 1985 when our fusion program was allowed to be diverted by the Russians and the notion of ITER was first proposed.
See: http://www.fuelrfuture.com for an extensive fusion related resource of science, history, and politics. No hype, just lots of solid facts, videos, and scientific papers.
“Mr. Kurzweil is a consummate IT professional”
Please, most of Ray’s work is limited to telling clever stories, and most of the uses of what’s been framed as AI are limited to simple feedbacks, like production line speed, regulation of flow rates, and the now famous home thermostat. The use of AI in complex systems that require contingency management is a pipe dream. I’ve seen the same thing in the so called “intelligent data mining” algorithms of the past 20 years. All we do as we research these approaches are find out how little they can do and how easily they fail.
Do not forget Ray’s “singularity”…the moment in time that he has calculated it will be possible to download a person’s consciousness into a computer, and hence become immortal.
It is astounding how much traction this idea has gotten…considering that no one has the slightest idea of how it is that we have a consciousness, where it resides, or any clue as to how to “pour” it into a machine…which seems quite impossible to me, ever.
Maybe copying it would be a better description of the process they seem t have in mind.
Think about this: If someone made a perfect copy of your mind, would it be you? I say no. Not even slightly. I would no awareness of this mind. Although it may know everything about me up to the point it was created, I would have no awareness of it, before or after.
Kurtzweil is sophist and a dreamer. Very smart I am sure,
So are a lot of people.
We already know that being smart does not give a person bulletproof ideas.
The opposite seems to often be the case.
Lovely “numbers” article. Now, would anyone care to do the “weather” article?
Last 2 years America has had huge snow/temperature problems. What provisions need to be made to clear the panels (even just washing off the dirt/bird crap every now and then). What is the average cloud cover, how well do PV panels work in Northern States at temps of 0 Degrees C and below. What happens during a thunderstorm when all has gone dark in the daytime.
It really amazes me that clever people think such silly thoughts.
Silicon PV panels love the cold. They are more efficient when it’s cold than when they are hot.
True. But I doubt if they’re more efficient when covered with snow.
And solar panels really suck at night … just when you want to switch on some lights and watch TV 😉
I suppose that the “covered in snow” argument may have convinced a lot of people that cars and trucks were a silly idea.
And windows can break, so why put them on the walls of houses?
Cars and windows have a useful purpose that they perform very well. Which entices people to put up with their shortcomings.
The same can’t be said of solar panels.
Yes, it can.
All the arguments come down to cost.
For Joel from 54 N: I have to clean my solar panels almost every day in the winter to keep them operating effectively. In one case, I tripled the area of the panels so I didn’t have to clean the frost and light dusting so off of them as often. But that still doesn’t help a lot if it is snowing and/or blowing. Plus at 30 below it doesn’t matter if the panels are more efficient if your batteries are frozen. And let’s not talk about using battery powered heating to keep the batteries warm. Cascade effect. Endless do loop. SPV works, but it requires maintenance.
But in Utah, Nevada, etc, they work well – most of the time. Still need cleaning.
+1
I suspect hail storms would require panel replacement on a regular basis (every 2nd or 3rd year) in our part of the country. ‘Course you could always keep them covered with some soft absorbent blanket…that would do the trick!
http://renewableenergysolar.net/can-my-solar-panels-withstand-a-hail-storm/
Joel D Jackson, As I am sure you will be aware, that article to which you link was written by an ignoramus who thinks that velocity of a hailstone is the sole determinant of damage to a solar panel. That is what I call ‘climate science’ thinking, where one variable is deemed to be the universal cause.
I have a suspicion that momentum and the structure of the hailstone may have more to do with resulting damage.
Solar is great for small, local applications, such as recharging lantern, watch, mobile phone and laptop batteries, lousy for powering factories and cities.
Electric cars could work standalone, with solar recharging of batteries, with a simple bit of engineering: when you need a recharge you swap your flat battery for an already charged one, rather than waiting hours for your flat battery to be recharged.
Was taking a camping trip in a national forest. Got an EXPENSIVE solar charger for a cell phone. 8′ X16″ that had loops for tying to back pack. It only added about 10 % battery per day while hiking w/ it on. Spent one full day in a camp and even with frequent repositioning it did not full charge the phone w/ a 2400 ma battery. Don’t waste your money, buy a second battery and keep it in your pocket with tape on the terminals for the needed emergency.
Was the solar charger really 8 feet by 16 inches or 8 inches X 16 inches … if 8 feet it could double as a hammock … hook it up to a motor and it could rock itself 😉
Eight inches by 16 inches. Not an expert typist.
You cannot swap over just one battery.
My dad had an electric car in the early 1990s and it had about 80 batteries weighing about 750kg. It is impossible to swap a fully charged set to replace a spent set. the batteries have to be charged in situ. A fast charge shortens the life of batteries, so ideally they need to be charged slowly.
How many sets of batteries do you plan on having at home? It takes at least 3 days to recharge them.
Not to mention the fact that the battery pack weighs some 500 to 600 pounds. How were you planning on swapping them out?
Aside from the cost, using all green energy would be hellish on our environment.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028063.300-wind-and-wave-farms-could-affect-earths-energy-balance/
“…Using a model of global circulation, Kleidon found that the amount of energy which we can expect to harness from the wind is reduced by a factor of 100 if you take into account the depletion of free energy by wind farms. It remains theoretically possible to extract up to 70 TW globally, but doing so would have serious consequences.
Although the winds will not die, sucking that much energy out of the atmosphere in Kleidon’s model changed precipitation, turbulence and the amount of solar radiation reaching the Earth’s surface. The magnitude of the changes was comparable to the changes to the climate caused by doubling atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide (Earth System Dynamics, DOI: 10.5194/esd-2-1-2011).”
Just think of thousands of square miles of sunny land carpeted with devices specifically engineered to absorb as much sunlight as possible. Can you say UHI on steroids?
Bart says: “Just think of thousands of square miles of sunny land carpeted with devices specifically engineered to absorb as much sunlight as possible.”
…
There’s a word for that
…
They call it “ASPHALT”
Imagine how hot a completely unshaded, unrelentingly contiguous black asphalt surface 30,000 square km in area would get.
“30,000 square km????????
…
Try 61,000 square MILES
..
http://www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question123329.htm
Opps…try this link https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070719230638AAVVZR0
I was just quoting the article. But, I defer to your number. Imagine that heat island!
I am guessing that 100 years ago, someone could have written an article similar to this pointing out what a bad idea cars are, compared to a horse and buggy.
Imagine how long it takes to build a car. If we build one car a day, it will take 27 million years to replace all the horses with cars…
What does the math of one solar panel per second have to do with anything, except that it is a nice sounding made up number to argue against?
This article is crammed full of straw man arguments.
But what really is steaming my clams is the amount of effort spent implying that anyone with a financial interest in anything cannot be impartial.
Whether that is true or not, the fact is that all this work and study and effort was done to shoot down solar for the purpose of promoting a crowd source funding campaign for Mr. Tomarkin’s fusion project.
This is a primer for a hand out t help fund the single biggest black hole for money in history.
I am all for fusion, and will be all in on it…the day it is shown to actually work.
Being against something is easy. But being against something that at least works, while only being for something that may, in fact, never return a single watt of power into a grid above what was used to produce it, is the same thing as the warmistas do.
“Menicholas” The fundamental issue is how much energy is received in the way of energetic photons from the sun per square unit of surface area per period time with secondary issues relating to system reserves and storage. The figure of merit is not the production run rate of one “panel per second” but rather the total amount of active PV cell surface area required to produce baseload power. My colleague, Barrie Lawson in the UK, and I have defined this in the “Going Solar” section of our work as linked at the top under “Key Concepts.” A direct link is: http://fuelrfuture.com/going-solar/ If you can point to any specific “straw man” arguments please do so. And if you can find any errors in our “Going Solar” system requirements please point those out. In terms of the comments regarding financial interests, that is absurd. My email address is tt@usclcorp.com and my cell number is +1-916-482-2020. Please bring those to my direct attention. In terms of any interest I have in fusion energy development please see our very extensive website at: http://www.fuelrfuture.com Fusion is still in the experimental science stage. In all likelihood we can look forward to a demonstrate a sustained positive net energy gain greater than 10 over the next decade. Commercialization must follow extensive R&D and some non-trivial applied materials science and engineering. Anyone who says they “will do fusion” on a traditional crowdfunding campaign is less than honest to say the least. I certainly would not state that! Feel free to send me any factual errors based on science and mathematics in The Green Mirage article and we will analyze them and revise the article if so required. Thank you for your professional courtesies. Regards, T. D. Tamarkin
Menicholas the “one panel per second” meme is a familiar technique used with a crowd of numerically challenged people. What Tomarkin fails to mention is that in 2014, about 50 GW of panels were produced in existing factories. If you do the math, that equates to about 1 panel every 13 seconds.
…
That fact will put the “one panel per second” result into perspective.
“If you do the math, that equates to about 1 panel every 13 seconds.
…
That fact will put the “one panel per second” result into perspective.”
Hmmm, so 13 times slower than one per second, which requires 930 years, so 12,090 years. Of worldwide production at current rates.
“Menicholas the “one panel per second” meme is a familiar technique used with a crowd of numerically challenged people.”
Were you trying to be ironic?
Yes, if we build a second factory, that one per second becomes two, and all the numbers are cut all the way in half, just by a snap of the fingers!
Build ten such plants, and whoa…now we are cooking.
Come up with a way to do it better, cheaper and faster, and from that moment a=on, every panel will be cheaper and faster to build! Forever!
Look how long it used to take to sequence a genome…it was thought impossible to ever be practical.
Things change.
Things that need incremental improvement are likely to improve faster that something which has never been made to work!
Roads are useful. Solar panels aren’t.
PS, even with the solar panels, you are still going to need every inch of asphalt, since none of those electric cars have learned to fly yet.
So we are talking in addition to, not instead of. Sheesh, try thinking for once.
Menicholas, if you are going to come up with an analogy, at least try to get one a little less stupid?
Read up on the many problems with horses and how cars actually solved that problem for most people.
People voluntarily switched to cars because they wanted to. They didn’t need massive govt programs to force them to buy a product they didn’t want.
The one panel a second point was in response to the claim that we can be 100% solar in 20 or 30 years.
“MarkW” The fundamental issue is how much energy is received in the way of energetic photons from the sun per square unit of surface area per period time with secondary issues relating to system reserves and storage. The figure of merit is not the production run rate of one “panel per second” but rather the total amount of surface area required to produce baseload power. My colleague, Barrie Lawson in the UK, and I have defined this in the “Going Solar” section of our work as linked at the top under “Key Concepts.” A direct link is: http://fuelrfuture.com/going-solar/
“Yes, if we build a second factory…”
No, if we double worldwide production, then double it again, etc… He wasn’t talking about one factory, he was talking about one world.
Such activity, even were it possible (which it isn’t – we’re talking so much material that the bottlenecks would be insurmountable in any reasonable length of time), would have dire environmental consequences.
Mark, my point had nothing to do with cars, it had to do with production numbers, and extrapolations.
If it makes you feel better about something to call people stupid, by all means knock yourself out.
Back in the early twentieth century, no one had any idea how many cars would be sold, or where all the gas would come from.
Without knowing it, you make my point even stronger…when people decide they want something, when there is demand, supply will follow. An examination of how many cars could be produced, judged by someone in 1910, might have sounded exactly like the point made in the top article.
And I must have missed something…who is forcing you to buy solar panels?
Are you simply referring to your tax dollars subsidizing something you hate?
Relax…it is all borrowed money! Your taxes and mine do not even cover the postage for the checks they mailed out to people scamming the gubnamint, for yesterday alone!
Oh, yeah…forgot:
http://www.edusolution.com/regentsexams/ushistory/janaury2009/ques24.gif
http://vitalsigns.worldwatch.org/sites/default/files/automobiles_figure_1.png
It is just silly to argue that, even if we wanted them, we could not build them in less than hundreds of years. Let alone almost a thousand years.
If there was demand, they would be built…fast!
Has there ever been anything that could not be built fast enough…for more than time it took to build a factory?
Which is the same as the amount of time to build a thousand factories.
The US went from the great depression to the largest manufacturer of military hardware the world had ever seen in about 18 months or less.
Touch screens went from a curiosity to a run rate in the tens of millions per month nearly overnight.
I would venture to say that smartphones are a lot more complicated to build than a solar panel.
Solar panels are different , of course.
Everything is different.
But the motivation to profit is the same…supply will meet demand, and do so quickly.
Menicholas July 29, 2015 at 4:07 pm
“I am guessing that 100 years ago, someone could have written an article similar to this pointing out what a bad idea cars are, compared to a horse and buggy.
Imagine how long it takes to build a car. If we build one car a day, it will take 27 million years to replace all the horses with cars…”
Horses were DANGEROUS. In 1900 more people were killed in traffic accidents in New York City, by runaway horses or being kicked by hoses, than were killed in traffic accidents in 2000 in New York City.
Elon Musk’s Powerwall is an attempt to reduce the cost of batteries by increasing the number of batteries built. The trouble is that there is a better technology for stationary batteries.
Aquion is producing non-HAZMAT batteries at around the same cost of as lead-acid technology. The batteries are larger and heavier than the Powerwall batteries but, for stationary applications, that doesn’t matter much. Aquion has their first large scale customer so we should have real data on the economics and reliability in a couple of years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquion_Energy
Elon Musk’s Powerwall is just another marketing exercise. He has the media and the unknowledgeable on his side
He also wants to take advantage of the CA net zero energy rule. Will out of necessity require Musk’ subsidiaries, SolarCity collectors and the Power Wall. Ads are already on the internet. for systems and instillation. and Leased contracts.
Read and come to understand California SB-350 and then you will know what Mr. Musk has really been up to and what he really, really wants. See: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160SB350
One almost good news solar story.
I work for a very large shopping mall owner. The owner decided to install a very large solar panel array on top of one of the malls (which is located within the tropics).
The array powers the whole centre during daylight hours. Any excess is fed to the grid – when the authorities allow. Obviously the centre requires grid power after daylight hours but so far the subsidy gained by the excess power flowing into the grid during the daylight hours has amortized the night.
The system will pay for itself within four years.
Now the bad news.
If the grid feed in subsidy disappears then night time grid energy use will need to be paid and the four year cost recovery will go up.
The fire services may not be inclined to put out a fire on the roof with so much voltage up there.
The mall is in a tropical area close to the sea. experience has shown that corrosion is a problem.
The grid may in future refuse to accept any feed in because the amount generated unbalances their system.
One advantage is that the tenants in the mall get almost free power during daylight hours.
This makes the centre very attractive for tenants – i.e. for the owner no vacancy in the mall.
There’s a lot in your comment that doesn’t rattle right. Particularly this:
The fire services may not be inclined to put out a fire on the roof with so much voltage up there.
Tells me you don’t really understand solar cell technology.
May want to do some research on the net.
“So much voltage up there” is an amateurish and meaningless phrase. How much voltage? Numbers please. Between what two physical points is it measured? Where is the DC inverter (or inverters) located in the described installation?
I’m an electrical engineer. I’m somewhat acquainted with “research on the net”.
There’s usually lots of electricity on any commercial roof … airconditioners, air exchange, heaters, transformers. If the electricity comes in via the roof, there are many kV. Neon signs have around 2 – 15 kV. Firefighters should not be deterred by typical photovoltaic voltages, they’re trained to deal with worse.
“so much voltage” is sloppy writing, though a bit afield of the main point of the post.
It’s common to shut off power to a building as part of fire fighting – that won’t shut off power from solar panels.
Here’s one decent look at rooftop “challenges” for residential fire fighters.
http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-attack/articles/594656-Solar-Safety-for-Firefighters-The-Myths-and-the-Facts/
Some of the high capacity systems wire panels in series to get 300 – 400 volt DC voltage for simpler conversion to AC. Since this is a Mall, they probably want 3 phase etc. Peak-to-peak single phase 120 VAC is 340 volts. .
Eustace, most solar panels put out about 400VDC. It’s really easy to check.
A mall near me could not get a good rate without paying for the ten mile extension of the necessary HV line. So, they installed a NatGas powered diesel generator to make their electricity. The water heated by the diesel was used in a Water-Lithium Bromide Vapor Absorption Refrigeration System. This cooled the building. The cooler could be bypassed and the heat of the diesel heated water used for heating the mall in the winter. Cost of this system was less than the charge for the electric co. extending the required service. Annual cost of NatGas, maintenance/service including a fulltime maintenance engineer averages less than the preferred electric rate. Thus as the maintenance engineer explained to me “They get Free HVAC, jus by making the electricity required for normal operation of the Mall.
Make the mall big enough and you don’t need heating. Case – Mall of America in Twin Cities, Minnesota. No heating system installed. Bodies and lighting supply all that is needed even in Minnesota winters.
The heat is beneath your feet, using a venture system (cold water in hot out ) would not require the billions of solar $ to design and operate
Tried that in Australia. Not economical
BUT ! when ” logical” minds throw a few billion $ at a problem it is normally resolved!It does not need a trillion more to keep it afloat !
Reblogged this on gottadobetterthanthis and commented:
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Here is your engineering homework. Large assignment. Read and understand. The test will involve pain.
“in 20 years virtually all power in America will come from Solar.”
We were told by highly-qualified, advanced-degreed “experts” that cancer would be cured within 20 years.
That was 50 years ago.
Eustace Cranch
July 29, 2015 at 7:06 am
““So much voltage up there” is an amateurish and meaningless phrase. How much voltage? Numbers please”
In typical installations with separate inverters mounted within the building, it’s not uncommon for the DC input to be as much as 700 volts – and that’s under load. Now imagine what it might be on a sunny day with the isolator switched off. In light of that would be happy aiming a fire hose up at a burning roof? There are already plenty of instances where the fire brigade have taken one look and simply stood back and let the building burn down. Roof mounted panels can also be a problem before the roof itself catches fire – in large warehouses they will often want to cut holes to let the smoke escape, so as to aid their searches inside. With a roof covered in solar panels this becomes difficult if not impossible. A friend has personal experience of this, when an adjoining unit in the building he shares suffered a machinery fire. The unit in question had a 60Kw array up top. Not only did this make the fire more difficult to deal with, the following morning (as the sun rose) wires inside started sparking…
There’s mention of David McKay and his book SEWTHA.
It is a Must Read, especially where he calculates the energy gathering/conversion efficiency of plants, aka biomass – under UK conditions.
It is 2 watts per square metre.
If, all UK farmland was to grow canola (rape-seed) for conversion to biodiesel, it would only make ~350 litres per car in the UK. Good for maybe 4000 miles when the average UK car goes 10,000 miles per year? That is sooo going to work. not.
That does not include trucks, buses, trains, tractors, construction plant etc etc
Again UK conditions, the rule of thumb for solar panels is that they generate, on average over a typical UK year, 10% of rated power. Manufactured panels are usually 150 watts per sqm so solar PV is maybe 7 times more efficient than biomass.
That 37 watt figure is a fairy tale dream come true for this part of the world – even very sunny/dry southern England gets maybe 20 watts per sqm. (I eavesdrop on a renewable energy forum where they compare solar PV results every month, I can back that up if needed)
Its worse than we thought, it really is.
A super article which will require some time to digest properly.
Under ideal conditions, almost all PV power is generated during a 5 hour window each day, so about 75% of the power required must be stored or transmitted over great distances from excess capacity in remote regions. Storage is structural problem number 1 which must be resolved before considering PV for 100% grid supply, and storage has a serious recurring cost in the same price range as fuel for coal/gas generation, along with significant environmental impact.
An excellent article!
I am a retired nuclear engineer. I have calculated, demonstrated and posted many of the bullets listed in the leading paragraphs on numerous web sites. The vitriol I get in return would heat the average size home for a year. Like the insane idea of CCS – where are their brains? Even a HS kid with HS chemistry can determine that the mass alone will be more than twice the mass of the burned product. The volume of the CO2 will be many orders of magnitude worse. The cost of compression of that volume would be at least 1/2 the profit of the power plant. Then you have to transport it – that means it would cost twice as much to move it away as it did to haul in the coal, oil, etc. Where are their brains?
They don’t think with their brains so much as their *heart*. It’s an emotional thing for greens. Rational thought doesn’t enter into it, as you’ve already discovered personally.
Have you seen the following post at Jo Nova’s?
http://joannenova.com.au/2015/07/wait-til-you-see-these-numbers-on-carbon-capture-and-storage/
Dave, here is the effort being made at present.
http://www.globalwarming.org/2014/10/29/kemper-ccs-project-3-years-behind-3-9-billion-over-budget-hows-that-for-adequately-ademonstrated/
Is ‘Boondoggle’ a Southern word? I think so.
Usurbrain. It’s actually around 30% in tested operating environments. See boundary dam CCS and others referenced in articles at WUWT. Not nitpicking, just commenting.
I think perhaps a key quote is:
As this shows there are some people thinking that solutions may not yet have been invented.
Who, in 1960, say, would have a clue about how flat screen TVs would work – and be so ubiquitous – 50 years later? And so it is with electricity generation: it doesn’t have to always involve steam. Not that I can see solar as the answer.
What the heck Harry? Why didn’t they just say let’s get on with conventional nuclear and start deploying thorium reactors and solve the issue of waste disposal!
The Thorium community is fond of saying that Thorium has a less aggressive radioactive waste series. However, the actinide decay chain is similar to uranium and is, in fact, complicated by heavy gamma ray radiation. Furthermore, Thorium is a fertile material not a fissile material which means it must operate in conjunction with Uranium. The thorium community will also say that Thorium cannot be used in weapons programs. However uranium 233 can be breed from Thorium which in turn can be weaponized. Thorium is no fission utopia. Fission is fission. It is a bridge now to the future but it must be replaced by fusion sooner than later. Edward Teller and Ralph Moir wrote a definitive paper on the potential use of Thorium in Molten Salts Reactors in 2004. A PDF is available at: http://fusion4freedom.us/science/moir_teller-thorium.pdf To learn more about the facts regarding Thorium see: http://www.whatisnuclear.com/articles/thorium.html#downsides
Tomer the issue is: nuclear is a major part of the transition away from fossil fuels game, set, match! We should stop pussyfooting around about it! I think that Ed Teller has probably been saying just that for about 70 years
Tomer, posting the same comment over and over again is akin to trolling.
Mark, Tomer’s whole point in writing this article is misdirection. He is not anti-solar, he is profusion, and everything is towards that aim.
Professional courtesy was requested, but I am merely asking for being straight up about one’s purpose.
Fusion will be great…if it ever can be made to work.
A big if, considering the time and money and brainpower that has gone into trying.
Some of the top people in fusion have flat given up and declared it impossible.
And it may be.
I have not seen one thing, or heard on new fact, which makes me think anything has changed regarding fusion research.
“Menicholas” your comment is far off the mark. I am absolutely dead set against any national movement to deploy solar for material amounts of baseload power. Solar is NOT appropriate for baseload power. In the Green Mirage article we demonstrate that it takes over 29 billion square meters of PV surface area to provide 440 GWH 24 hours a day 365 days a year. That is not feasible. At the run rate of 1 per second it takes over 900 years to fabricate the panels; at ten a second over 90 years. And the life expectancy is less than 25 years. My point in writing the article is to get the facts out to the public and to the politicians who have been corrupt beyond measure when it comes to the AGW-climate scare driven ‘green energy scheme.” Today solar is extremely heavily subsidized by the government and the ratebase. That is not sustainable. It will bankrupt the country. And there is absolutely no way solar can ever provide more than 10% of baseload power in the U.S. unless, of course, we ration power and dramatically limit its availability to both industry and consumers which is death to America as the last remaining superpower. Simply put the only realistic solutions to energy beyond fossil fuels are nuclear fission which is available today and fusion which can be available by 2050. Solar for baseload power is a waste of time and a waste of tax payer’s money. I have asked you to submit any math or physics errors in our calculations summarized in the “Key Concepts” section of the article and predicated on the “Going Solar” http://fuelrfuture.com/going-solar/ and “Solar Power (Technologies and Economics)” http://fuelrfuture.com/solar-power-technology-and-economics/ Do not mischaracterize my comments and intentions. Following a solar program for baseload power would destroy America as we know it today. And do not continue to mischaracterize plasma physics and fusion science. We have a decade of experimental science ahead of us before we demonstrate a sustained net energy gain in a controlled environment and another 1 to 2 decades before it is deployment ready. And I fail to understand why you continue to deflect the subject matter of the “Green Mirage” and its facts into discussions about your personal view of fusion energy. I am in no way misdirected.
Tomer, nipping at the heals of solar advocates is a waste of time, IMO. The real problem is the CAGW movement. Unless and until this lie is exposed for what it is, you might as well be barking at the moon.
If I am wrong then I apologize, but everything I have heard from you is anti this and anti that, except for fusion. And fusion is completely unproven. I hope your project succeeds, but surely you can agree that betting the future of civilization on something which has never been demonstrated to work is not a very good idea.
Solar may be expensive and inefficient, but it makes power. Fusion may never.
Fission works, but people are afraid of it…irrationally in my view. All of your comments are negative on this energy source as well.
And I am saying what I am saying based on the last time we spoke, over several days and at great length…you were trying to talk me and some other people into helping you crowd source funding for your fusion research.
If that is no longer your line of business, then I am mistaken and I am sorry.
2050 is a long way off.
I am sorry, but I am sick of hearing pessimistic moaning about what will not work.
Considering you want to direct research towards the most iffy power source ever to have billions spent on it, I find it grating to hear about how unfeasible everything else is.
Menicholas” If I understand you correctly we absolutely agree on the AGW-climate scare issue. Fabrication resulting from the UM Rio Accords later transformed into Agenda 21 and the Sustainability Movement. You will never find me using the AGW scare as a reason to move away from fossil fuels or advocate nuclear fission now as a bridge to fusion in the future. My position on AGW-climate change is summed up at: http://fuelrfuture.com/category/news/climate-news/
To quote the opening:
“PowerRfuture and its sponsors are not aligned with the pro-Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) or climate change scientific or political community. Nor are we aligned with the scientific or political communities supporting a lack of AGW or man caused climate change (climate deniers). We have endeavored to present scientific views which are not easy for the average person to see because they are not promulgated by the media. We provide a balance between Proof of AGW and Disproof of AGW through peer reviewed and published scientific papers in our Great Climate Debate section and we demonstrate through an authoritative article by Dr. Roy Spencer that the common phrase “97% of scientists believe in climate change and the IPCC findings” is a false claim. We also provide a “Climate Change Tutorial” entitled “Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) The Science, Climate History, and Politics”, which is meant to teach non-scientists the basic scientific concepts surrounding “climate change” and related political and corporate interests. We have also provided linkage to the possibility that AGW has been manipulated by International intergovernmental organizations for geo political reasons as well as corporate and philanthropic institutions. The unintended consequences of the UN – IPCC and the UN’s Agenda 21 and related Sustainability Movement have, in our judgment, spawned the Green Energy corruption and taxation scheme.
Considerable amounts of money, in excess of 100 billion USD have been spent over the last decade researching and re-researching climate change, cause and effect as well as mitigation steps. Is this the best use of our money? Absolutely not. The strong and robust debate in the scientific community concerning the cause and effect relationship of climate change and man is inconclusive at best, and politically driven by a divergent set of rogue players at worst.
In our view the preferred use of the enormous amounts of money being dissipated in climate change abatement is in the direct and immediate investment in science and technology that will simply replace fossil fuels and ultimately nuclear fission over the next few decades. Fossil fuels are a finite resource. Today they are an absolute requirement given their exceedingly high energy flux density or specific energy. The fact that fossil fuels are finite, and that their cost to extract significantly increases as traditional reserves are depleted, further underscores the need to use the monies now spent on climate study and potential mitigation, on developing fusion instead. Developing fusion is a multi-decade proposition from laboratory demonstration, to grid level prototype generation stations and subsequent commercialization and infrastructure replacement.
Under these conditions, climate change caused by man is a moot point and removed from serious discussion. With fusion energy, mankind will then have the benefit of unlimited, inexpensive energy, potable water, and plentiful food for eternity. The only realistic solution is fusion energy given the negatives associated with nuclear fission; i.e. radioactive waste management, safety concerns, and fissile fuel black market profiteering and arms trading.”
This section is followed by a large number of articles counter to the IPCC and the established climate change position.
“Tomer the issue is: nuclear is a major part of the transition away from fossil fuels game, set, match! We should stop pussyfooting around about it! I think that Ed Teller has probably been saying just that for about 70 years”
This I agree with completely.
“…The only realistic solution is fusion energy given the negatives associated with nuclear fission; i.e. radioactive waste management, safety concerns, and fissile fuel black market profiteering and arms trading.””
If producing safe, usable and inexpensive power from fusion is possible, then it will be a game changer for the world.
But I do not think that it is a safe assumption to make, that it will be possible anytime soon, and it may not ever be achieved. I am not saying this because I want to…I am saying it because it must be said.
Saying that it is the only realistic solution will not alter the laws of physics. I hope this statement is not true, because the implication is that if fusion is impossible to achieve, civilization will eventually collapse, and never rise again.
I think it is more true to say that a realist must acknowledge all the facts which are relevant, and not decide what is true or false based on feelings or wishful thinking.
To be truly realistic is to see that that which has never been achieved has no guarantee of eventual success.
This is not pessimism.
Saying that nothing else is realistic is pessimistic and not realistic, in my view.
I find it baffling that someone can be 100% optimistic about something so incredibly difficult, but so negative on the possibilities for anything else.
In fact it makes no sense.
It is not based on anything knowable (or is it…please do tell), so it must be based on faith. Or it is merely advocacy based on the hope of fortune or fame.
Nothing wrong with faith, or fortune, or fame, if one is honest about it.
I wonder why it is not seen as a better idea to advocate for the 10% of our needs that can be met by solar, and achieve that as soon as possible, if one views other resources as finite and/or undesirable…in order to stretch out the supply and keep prices low.
Prices for fossil fuels skyrocketed back about ten years ago due to demand exceeding supply by a few percent.
Ten percent here, ten percent there…what is wrong with that?
Stop are you just drunk?
The above comment by “menicholas” is correct. For elaboration please see my on-line treatment of the issues at: http://fuelrfuture.com/category/issues/fusion-solution/ Regards, T. D. Tamarkin
“menicholas” Please note that “The Green Mirage” addresses the viability of 100% baseload solar power in the U.S. and is based solidly on the detailed analysis linked to “Going Solar” at: http://fuelrfuture.com/going-solar/ Scroll down to system requirements and review the calculations and methodology. The numbers speak for themselves. Once again, if anyone has actual calculations and/or data indicating any section of the “Green Mirage” article is in error please feel free to email me at tt@usclcorp.com and I will review the issues and make changes to the extent the new information is accurate. I have made this clear from the first posting of this article by Watt’s Up With That.
Regards, T. D. Tamarkin
Again see: http://fuelrfuture.com/going-solar/
Tomar: The article you reference specifically states that the nasty stuff has a half-life of 27 DAYS! But thanks for the reference.
Fossilsage…I do not drink. I was a little sleepy. Not a very well written comment, I agree.
Use nuclear energy to make then ionize steam with heat and blast it through a coil, presto electricity. After it has cooled, burn it, make steam.