Over two-thirds of the contiguous USA covered with snow

Readers may recall our story from Dec 15th, 2013: Over half the USA covered in snow, the most in 11 years

Now, it’s even more. See the map and the 3D image:

nsm_depth_2014020705_National
February 7, 2014

  Area Covered By Snow: 67.4%
  Area Covered Last Month: 48.1%

The map is from NOAA’s  National Operational Hydrologic Remote Sensing Center

The 3D image is from this KMZ file and Google Earth:

3D_USA_Snow_02-07-14

h/t to Joe Bastardi of WeatherBell

UPDATE: Values of snow cover for this date show this is the highest in a decade.

February 7, 2014
Area Covered By Snow:    67.4%
February 7, 2013
Area Covered By Snow:    34.8%
February 7, 2012
Area Covered By Snow:    25.5%
February 7, 2011
Area Covered By Snow:    48.9%
February 7, 2010
Area Covered By Snow:    60.8%
February 7, 2009
Area Covered By Snow:    33.2%
February 7, 2008
Area Covered By Snow:    51.1%
February 7, 2007
Area Covered By Snow:    38.9%
February 7, 2006
Area Covered By Snow:    26.6%
February 7, 2005
Area Covered By Snow:    26.4%
February 7, 2004
Area Covered By Snow:    53.4%

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332 Responses to Over two-thirds of the contiguous USA covered with snow

  1. Alan Robertson says:

    Some of the driest parts of Oklahoma and Texas received a foot or more of snow in the past week. We may be fortunate and even more precipitation will fall in coming days. The area around Wichita Falls is suffering from extreme drought.

  2. Mike Jonas says:

    OK, but how normal or abnormal is this?

  3. MattS says:

    Mike Jonas says:
    February 7, 2014 at 3:36 pm

    OK, but how normal or abnormal is this?
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Eyeballing it, it looks to me like there is standing snow cover in parts of the country that are considered desert regions. I would call that pretty darn abnormal.

  4. Berényi Péter says:

    I bet it is rotten snow or turn to it soon. Warmth will return in vengeance in a short time, by July, this year, at the latest.

  5. Looks exactly how I imagined the Ice Ages over the history of the earth that had them.

    Global warmist— cool it!

  6. AJ says:

    This is due to Global Warming. Wind during the Spring = Global Warming. Heat during Summer = Global Warming. Leaves falling in the Fall = Global Warming

  7. Abel Garcia says:

    This is why we have to fight global warming!

  8. P. Hager says:

    Is it my imagination, but is there snow in the the Sierra Mountains now? What impact will that have on the CA drought?

  9. Nothing but global warming would be capable of doing this? Right Algore??

  10. Ack says:

    2-4 feet of global warming expected in the mtns around here this weekend. Skiers in heaven.

  11. Reblogged this on Public Secrets and commented:
    If only we had listened to Al Gore and signed Kyoto, we wouldn’t be suffering this horrid warming! Wait…

  12. Richard Sharpe says:

    How much snow pack is there in the Sierras?

  13. Mike Jonas says:
    February 7, 2014 at 3:36 pm
    OK, but how normal or abnormal is this?
    ===

    First, one must define normal.

  14. Lea says:

    As usual little rock is right on the line but I just looked outside and it’s covered in a nice light dusting! Someone at work was going on about the climate being really different. Ugh

  15. Karl Spencer says:

    Normal is when a liberal complains that the increase in snow is due to global warming. What lemmings!

  16. JessicaJ. says:

    Here in Houston we’ve had 3 frozen precipitation events this winter. Considering that we average 1 every 5 years, it’s been a completely crazy winter. We usually have warm temps over the winter with periods of cold, this winter has been cold with brief periods of warm. I’m not the only person around here ready for this winter to end.

  17. Bob says:

    I think 2/3′s snow and ice cover is a tipping point. Welcome to the new ice age. Snowball earth, here we come!

  18. Bob says:

    err…
    I forgot the … tags.

  19. Gary Pearse says:

    So we can now snowshoe from Hokkaido Japan over ice and snow to central Texas, or even from Bangladesh to Texas, or how about Pyongyang N. Korea to Texas where it is below freezing, snow forecast for tomorrow and sea ice is along the northeast coast of N. Korea.
    See NOAA ESRL northern hemisphere surface temperatures on Sea Ice page (I don’t get the link on the Sea Ice page by clicking on the graphic)

  20. Nyall St. John Smythe IV says:

    But…but…but Dr. David Viner said in 2000 that “within a few years winter snowfall will become “a very rare and exciting event?”

    He really let me down. I believed him and threw away all of my winter clothes. My mum has been buying books by the bulk at flea markets in order to heat our house because..because…because of Dr. Viner!

    She locked me in the basement and is mad at me because I told her to sell her car and buy a boat because the sea level was supposed to be up to our house by now. I learned that from a movie about some kind of truth we didn’t or shouldn’t want to face. All I remember was some fat guy with a really big head had me and my friends really scared.

    Well, she went ahead and sold the car and now I am in real trouble and she says I have to ride my bike five miles into town to buy the basic necessities. She won’t do it and blames me and not Dr. Viner and the guy with the big head.

    Mum said when I turn 38 next week she’ll buy me a sled that I can use to drag the groceries back from the store. I found out bicycles don’t work too good on icy streets with lots of snow on them.

    Anyone know where to find that guy the with big head?

  21. Jo Gregg says:

    Meanwhile, in a surreal (albeit increasingly frequent) coincidence, the NYT has a column entitled “The End of Snow”…..Those guys are just too funny. Except for the billions of our tax dollars that their ideological (btw, theirs’ has nothing to do with logic) buddies in government have wasted on their Hoax of the Century.

  22. Ed Clark says:

    It’s all Bush’s fault!

  23. Americanman2012 says:

    Porter Fox’s article in NYT has a delusional moment of climate change , feeling that the planet has warmed 7 degrees, and soon there will be no cities that will be able to host the Olympics because the snow won’t be there. Now a days journalists really believe if you keep saying something enough times, it becomes the truth. No one can change the weather by charging taxes . Man can’t change the weather with money. Obama has spent 8 trillion dollars and it hasn’t made the USA any better.

  24. Richard Day says:

    god I hope those 350 nitwits are still standing in front of the WH. The key is to have gale force winds and -30c temps to really teach us a lesson about harmful CO2.

  25. Americanman2012 says:

    Will logic ever wake up the liberal mind. If we are being frozen out from the Northern Vortex, with sub minus temperatures, I ask them where do they think the cold came from, from freezer doors left open in many Canadian homes, ??? No , Could it be a Northern jet stream, blowing over the top of an enormous ice surface located in the Artic. Yeah,, could that be why they call it the polar vortex??? But you have sworn that all that ice has melted into the ocean. How can that be possible, that it’s back,,,, could it be a miracle, Praise the Lord , we’ve been healed.

  26. Michael Fox says:

    Here in Eugene, Oregon, we have about 8″ of fluffy, white global warmening on the ground, and it just keeps coming down. This is the second major event of white, fluffy global warmening this winter, the first of which brought us our coldest temperatures in 42 years, down to -10ºF, which is really something for the Willamette Valley.

    As true proof of global warming, however, the white, fluffy stuff is supposed to change to freezing rain and then real rain by Saturday. That will show us that this whole Gore Event is either an illusion or merely a pause in Real Global Warming, which is obviously happening to us right now, but we just don’t have the proper insight or fudged data to prove it.

  27. John F. Hultquist says:

    Inquiring mind: Are the Great Lakes and James Bay snow covered? The image shows them as black; likewise for some other large lakes. That has got to be a GIS mask.
    For these area calculations are some or all lakes included depending on size?
    _____
    P. Hager says:
    February 7, 2014 at 3:50 pm
    Is it my imagination, but is there snow in the Sierra Mountains now? What impact will that have on the CA drought?

    And it is raining in many places. S.F. has received 0.27 inches in the last 24 hours.
    _____
    Ack says “around here

    I give up?

  28. Leon Brozyna says:

    Over 9″ snow still on the ground with yet another wind chill advisory in effect.

    Give me some of that global warming … I’d not mind it in the least if all the snow and ice melted away.

  29. Steve from Rockwood says:

    At this rate it’s going to be too cold to host the Winter Olympics in North America.

  30. JA Robles says:

    I wrote my novel “Atlas on Ice” long before this cold snap. In the story, Seattle Sector is the northernmost inhabited conurbation in the Combined Territories of the Americas. The snow map in this article resembles the perimeter of the glacier I imagined in a future ice age. It gives me chills. Pass the hot cocoa, please!

  31. Richdo says:

    That’s a lot of albedo.

  32. MNJaneDoe says:

    For John F. Hultquist
    Lake superior is nearing freeze up now.
    http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_25080492/lake-superior-nearing-rare-ice-over

  33. Keith says:

    Here in Vermont we call it winter. It lasts from October until the end of May/early June when the four months of hard sledding begins. You have to leave snow tires on until Memorial Day and put them back on in October. Most years now I run snow tires all year and put new ones on in the fall.

    This report makes you shake your head. http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/viewart/20140207/NEWS07/140207006/Climate-expert-New-England-ski-resorts-vulnerable

    The 2012-2013 ski season was a bad year for skiing up here. Jay Peak received 362″ of natural snow though the previous season was their worst when they only received 251″. Their best year was 2000-2001 when they received nearly 600″
    http://www.jaypeakresort.com/skiing-riding/the-mountain/snowfall-charts/

  34. mrunpc says:

    From November, 2009, an article from Russia’s Pravda (the old Soviet propaganda outlet) actually published an article that you’ll NEVER see, ironically, in any of the current US Communist propaganda media outlets.

    Anyway, it’s worth the read and is based on scientific facts, not opinionated crap put forth by the Al-E-Gore, man made global warming crowd…
    http://english.pravda.ru/science/earth/11-01-2009/106922-earth_ice_age-0/

    “IF MAN CAUSES GLOBAL WARMING, WHO MELTED THE ICE AGES?”
    http://www.zazzle.com/mrunpc
    ANTI-Obama/Democrat/Commie/Union stickers, etc.

  35. Steve from Rockwood says:

    John F. Hultquist says:
    February 7, 2014 at 4:36 pm

    Inquiring mind: Are the Great Lakes and James Bay snow covered?
    ——————————————————–
    Lake Erie: 97% ice covered
    Lake Ontario: 23%
    Lake Huron: 67%
    Lake Michigan: 38%
    Lake Superior: 65%

    Most ice at this time of year in 20 years.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/great-lakes-under-the-largest-cover-of-ice-in-20-years-1.2513076

  36. Bill H says:

    Where I live we just set new records two days in a row… New lowest temp (recorded for the day) of -28 and -30 respectively along with the highest (low) temp of -7 and -1 deg F…. This was a full 11 deg F BELOW the previous lows/highs that were recorded in the 1970′s…. But it is Wyoming and on top of the Continental Divide. Go Figure…

  37. Bill H says:

    I forgot… the next storm starts tonight and will last three days or so… expecting about a foot of new global warming….

  38. Jo Gregg says:

    Every single prediction that the climate warmists have made has failed to materialize. And no one ever holds their feet to the fire (pardon any apparent pun) and asks them to defend all of the misinformation they have been pumping into the national and international conversation about this topic. Meanwhile, any scientists that don’t toe the line can’t get promotions or tenure or grant money. And then the warmists run around doing polls on the subject, having successfully intimidated almost the entire science community, and then they tell us that the science is “decided” based on their “poll” results.

    On a lighter note, given the warmists’ dire predictions of warming over the last 20 years or so, God certainly has a keen sense of humor, there hasn’t been any.

  39. Steve from Rockwood says:

    John F. Hultquist says:
    February 7, 2014 at 4:36 pm

    Inquiring mind: Are the Great Lakes and James Bay snow covered?
    ——————————————————————————————
    Hudson Bay and James Bay appear to be completely covered in ice.

    http://ice-glaces.ec.gc.ca/prods/WIS54CT/20140203180000_WIS54CT_0007502582.pdf

  40. Snow and winter is the reminder that this planet is still very much in the grip of a brutal Ice Age. Which is by no means “normal” historically on a geological scale.

  41. Matthew Dunnyveg says:

    Sorry, but the case is being overstated here, at least somewhat. I live in Texas behind that alleged snow line and we don’t have a bit of the stuff on the ground, although it’s definitely cold enough. We could sure use the moisture too.

  42. Funny comments. I enjoyed reading this after reading the NYT article slated for Sunday opinion “The End of Snow?” by Porter Fox. You can’t comment on Porter’s article but after reading his diatribe, I made up my mind he is a 1% who is paid to write the garbage. I about threw up reading it. No wonder the NYT is going under, they print garbage such as Porter Fox.

  43. mdvlt80 says:

    Ever notice snow is white just like Tea Party folk, well if the shoe fits and according to the ‘new’ Democrat party we hear about every other day, snow is a racist.

  44. rogerknights says:

    Anthony: Headline error: “Continental” (which includes Alaska) should not have been used. “Contiguous” (as in CONUS) was the right word.

    REPLY: Yes, continental USA: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_United_States Old habits die hard.

    No biggie though and probably not worth making a fuss over (except for the pedantists), but I’ll change it. ;-) -A

  45. Al Hoove says:

    Oh, but remember, weather is NOT climate. So just because we’re all freezing our patooties off doesn’t mean the globe isn’t in a dangerous long term warming trend. Unless today’s weather is warmer than usual, in which case the alarmists tell us warm weather is a symptom of global warming. Piers Morgan made precisely that point on a warm day in NYC in 2012: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWT-EWKIR3M

    Cold weather means global warming is caused by man. Warm weather is the proof. Forget falsifiability. This is SCIENCE! Which is settled. Irrevocably. So shut up and do what the Al Gore type politicians tell you. Send them all your money. Now. Before the polar bears drown in… ice.

  46. John M says:

    Erie and Superior now >90%, Huron closing in on it.

    http://www.natice.noaa.gov/products/great_lakes.html

    (Click on either West (Sup & Mich) or East (Hur. Erie & Ont), hit submit, and then click on the most recent jpg file (old to newest going from tip to bottom.)

  47. john robertson says:

    We are doomed.
    DOOMEd I tell yah.
    We will never be able to shovel our way out of all this global warming..
    At least snow melts in the spring, political BS, senseless regulations and lying stealing weasels never seem to go away.

  48. Elmer says:

    I don’t see Alaska on the map. It is also on the North American continent. Perhaps, you meant contiguous.

    REPLY: perhaps you need to refresh – A

  49. Frank Warmer says:

    Hey, why don’t we send a shipload of Global Warming scientists down to Antarctica to see how much ice is there??? With GW it must all be gone because Al Gore said it would all be gone by this time. Oh, wait….we already did that…oh snap.

  50. John M says:

    Great Lakes all on one slide with thicknesses added.

    Interesting that some areas less than 100% covered still have pieces of ice 12-24 inches thick.

    http://www.natice.noaa.gov/pub/special/great_lakes/2014/uscg_district_9_support/combined_slide/glslide140206thick_ct.jpg

  51. Herb says:

    All the sarcastic posts warm my heart. LOL

  52. TheTMA1 says:

    But, but, but,……. Obama says there isn’t any snow. Only global warming.
    Libs – What a bunch of SUCKERS!

  53. Eamon Butler. says:

    How certain are we exactly that co2 is causing all this warming?

  54. Carbomontanus says:

    Anthony Watts

    This means less for eventual global warming or not.

    We have had that discussion here in Norway relating to glaciers, on whether you can judge from growth or shrinking of glacers on waming of climate. Which you can not, but the principle is rather easy and elementary glaciology.

    If there is high percipitation in the winter and dry in the summer, the glaciers will grow, given unchanged temperatures.

    The opposite no snow in the winters however cold and cool and warm pissing in the summers,… that takes on the blue ice and reduces the glaciers.

    Then you can both understand and discuss it, but those things must be seen together as a whole.

    We also have the very important situation of no glaciers in Sibir and hardly in Ural however ice ages, but Folgefonni and Svartisen right where the warm atlantic winds come in. And on your side extreemly dry and rainshadow west and northwest of Grønland.

    It is as easy as that, and Spitzbergen Svalbard with another ice age history than the mainlands in Europe and North america, because Svalbard is in the arctic “high” and “arctic easterlies”

    Snow is to be discussed the same way.

    In Sibir, the Reindeers go down on the icy lakes and permafrosts in summer to avoid insects and up on the green hills to eat. Here they withdraw to the high glaciers to avoid insects and down to the green slopes to eat. .

    But tell them over there that they should be glad for snow, because it means water, and that summer sure will come. That is a quite certain meteorological longtime forcast.

    The rule here is: “Mai Kulde gjør Bondens lader fulde” (That you grasp)

    Cool and even snow in Mai means water, and because of the western European Monsune, there is danger of springtime draught. June with those very long days give light enough for photosynthesis.

    Thus the Sun Halo in April is the very old and heathen symbol of wealth and luck, later christianized as the sun cross.

    Tell them also that the sun Halo is a most certain signal of rain tomorrow, On Haloes, forget the meteorological institute and the weather forecasts.

    Fimbulvinter is 3 winters on a row without summer and then comes Ragnarokk.

    Thor will then kill the big snake, the polar vortex, but the snake wil breathe so much poison into his face that also Thor dies at Ragnarok.

    If that is certain, I don`t know.

  55. pat says:

    something to amuse while u remain indoors to escape the cold:

    7 Feb: NYT Dot Earth: Andrew C. Revkin: A Conversation on Tobacco and Coal Exports and Moral Responsibility
    I sent my recent post on exports of life-shortening tobacco and dirty fossil fuels to a variety of climate and energy scientists and analysts and the result was an interesting email conversation that is excerpted below…
    http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/07/a-conversation-on-tobacco-and-coal-exports-and-moral-responsibility/?_php=true&_type=blogs&module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog%20Main&contentCollection=Opinion&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs&region=Body&_r=0

  56. Mike Maguire says:

    What “could” happen is an uptick in severe weather and violent tornadoes in Springs that follow cold Winters like this. With almost absolute certainty, if/when this happens, it will be blamed on climate change from humans………..even as some of us note that last year had the least amount of tornadoes since accurate records have been kept.

    Strong to violent tornado numbers were highest during the modest global cooling in the 50′s-60′s-70′s. A mainly isolated big exception occurred in the Spring of 2011, but then we had conditions similar to the period of the 50′s to 70′s which featured more La Nina’s and cold Winters/Springs.
    A negative PDO is also more frequent during these periods that seem to repeat every 60 years or so(around half of them negative, half positive PDO)

    The Pacific Ocean and atmosphere seem to be in the same part/mode of this natural cycle as we were back in the 1970′s for instance. This Winter has been more like a Winter from the 1970′s than one in the 80′s/90′s, when the same cycle, on the flip side, had a warming influence.

    The Super Outbreak in early April 1974, for example, occurred less than 2 weeks after a piece of the “Polar Vortex” had dropped as far south as Northern Minnesota.

    There are numerous ingredients needed for an outbreak of violent, long lived tornadoes with a powerful jet stream near the top of the list. These powerful jet streams tend to coincide with the boundaries of strongly contrasting air masses.

    During our Springs, when violent tornado frequency is highest, the Gulf of Mexico is always there with its warm, humid air. Air of Pacific origin that has moisture wrung out traveling over the mountains is often available with a “dry line” existing in the Plains and becoming a significant feature in outbreaks.

    One of the elements that is often a key to the potency of the jet stream, development of a deep surface cyclone and intense, veering wind fields(sheer) is the amount of cold air available.

    The longer that Winters cold lingers(and snow cover lasts) the more explosive it can be when combining with heat and humidity that build in the south in response to the suns increasing angle/strength.

    Regarding the near future, we have some moderation in store for temperatures in the hard hit Midwest next week. Hopefully, the end of Winter will be more kind to us. One thing that has been fairly persistent is, not only the cold but the models consistently UNDER forecasting it and the pattern that has been causing it most of the Winter.

    At the moment, we still have a mind boggling upper level ridge in Eastern Siberia and down stream an upper level trough with the cold air connection for us. The models say this ridge will weaken and retrograde(move west) and a strong Pacific jet stream(tops winds over 150 mph at times) will slam into the West Coast and flood much of the country with milder oceanic air.

    A deep snow pack will keep things from warming up too fast but if this pattern kicks in, the weather will improve greatly. Oregon and Washington would get some welcome precip too.

  57. Kip Hansen says:

    Anyone know what this means for the California Drought?

    Anthony?

    I am a California Boy, born and bred.

    REPLY: Not much, our storm this weekend may bring us to 20-25% of normal snowpack from the 15% we are at now – A

  58. Regarding the End of Snow at the Olympics article in the NY Times. I would say the Rutgers Snow Lab data suggests the Northern Hemispheres last 4 years were the snowiest in the last 47 years.

    http://sunshinehours.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/the-ny-times-thinks-it-is-the-end-of-snow-for-the-olympics/

  59. Gail Combs says:

    Grandpa Delight says: @ February 7, 2014 at 5:07 pm

    …. No wonder the NYT is going under, they print garbage such as Porter Fox.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The NYT was the home of:

    You would think they would have learned…. or at least the readers would have voted with their feet.

  60. Did anyone else notice in Obama’s State of the Union Address that he said “climate change” is real
    NOT global warming?? Of course “climate change” is real. The earth’s climate has been changing for 3 billion years.

  61. Box of Rocks says:

    Actually find your Headline misleading.

    If you count the states that have snow covered ground you will find that only two states lack snow cover are Florida and Hawaii and I bet their is snow on the top of the mountains in Hawaii!

  62. William McClenney says:

    Huh! When Dallas freezes over! Oh wait………

  63. u.k.(us) says:

    This is what I’ve got bookmarked, it auto-updates.
    http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/res/glcfs/glcfs.php?lake=l&ext=ice&type=N&hr=00

    Lake Michigan might freeze-up yet ?
    The 5 day forecast (in Chicago) never gets above freezing even for high temps.

  64. Mike Maguire says:

    “One thing that has been fairly persistent is, not only the cold but the models consistently UNDER forecasting it and the pattern that has been causing it most of the Winter”

    That would mean OVER forecasting temperatures which have consistently come in colder than what the models “thought”

    Cold waves dropping south have been colder than expected much of the time this Winter. Also, once you get a huge area of snow pack, it is like being locked into the freezer.

    Cold air masses traveling over it are not modified as much as they would be over bare soil.
    During a sunny day, albedo is much higher over snow of course and at night, with clear skies and calm winds its incredible how much colder we get with deep snow (being a good emitter of radiation).

    I wonder how much total heat this massive snow pack over the US radiates out and how much heat is lost during the day from it reflecting sunlight?

  65. Pamela Gray says:

    The wheat farmers here at the base of the Blue Mountains in Oregon have this to say to “climate change” scientists: Change it back! The winter wheat roots indicate that Hell has officially frozen over!

  66. phodges says:

    Paging Dr. Viner….paging Dr. Viner….

    Regarding the Sierra snowpack…we got about 1-2 feet out of the storm last week, the first real precipitation since Dec 2012. Before that there was no snowpack to speak of.

    Current water survey at Mammoth Pass, 5th driest year:

    2014 = 8.5 in. H2O (currently at 22% of full winter precip ave.)

    1977 = 4.3 in. H2O ….end of winter result = 20.5% of average

    1991 = 4.7 in. H2O ….end of winter result = 67.4% of average

    1987 = 7.3 in. H2O ….end of winter result = 51.0% of average

    2012 = 8.7 in. H2O ….end of winter result = 48.3% of average

    2007 = 8.8 in. H2O ….end of winter result = 41.9% of average

    1976 =10.1in. H2O ….end of winter result = 44.8% of average

    1948 =10.2in. H2O ….end of winter result = 60.2% of average

    1994 =10.3in. H2O ….end of winter result = 57.2% of average

    Current forecast:

    AS A RESULT, MOST SNOW BELOW 8000 FEET WILL FALL TONIGHT. WITH QPF AMOUNTS THROUGH EARLY SUNDAY MORNING ON THE ORDER OF 3-5 INCHES NEAR THE SIERRA CREST, SNOW TOTALS ABOVE 8000 FEET WILL BE ON THE
    ORDER OF 2-3 FEET OF SIERRA CEMENT…

    forecast.weather.gov/product.php?site=NWS&issuedby=REV&product=AFD&format=CI&version=1&glossary=1

    hpc.ncep.noaa.gov/qpf/p120i12.gif

  67. Gail Combs says:

    john robertson says: @ February 7, 2014 at 5:26 pm

    … At least snow melts in the spring, political BS, senseless regulations and lying stealing weasels never seem to go away.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I have good news. Obama is shutting down 10% of the US electrical generating capacity by 2015 but it is not evenly spread out. Most of it is in a three state circle around Washington DC….

    The shut down is not only coal but up to 1/3 of the nuclear plants and some Hydro.
    http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2012/08/01/generating-companies-are-shuttering-coal-plants-at-record-rates-eia-reports/

    http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2013/10/14/several-u-s-nuclear-plants-retiring-early-others-at-risk/

  68. Chad Wozniak says:

    The NYT should rename itself Voelkischer Beobachter, to better describe its divorce from truth and fact. The end of snow? In the middle of a winter like this? The writer of this article needs to have his head examined. Art what point does delusion reach the point of incompetence to manage one’s own affairs?

  69. finnegan says:

    Looks like all our efforts to fight global warming are really working!!! Yay!! Saved humanity again!! (tee hee /end sarcasm)

  70. DiHydrogenMonoxide says:

    But the NYT just reported “This is no longer a scientific debate. It is scientific fact.” with regards to climate change / global warming. Funny how they wouldn’t allow comments on that article online… wouldn’t want anyone to debate the “scientific facts” now would we.

  71. Gail Combs says:

    Carbomontanus says: @ February 7, 2014 at 5:47 pm

    …. discussion here in Norway relating to glaciers….
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    A new approach for reconstructing glacier variability based on lake sediments recording input from more than one glacier

    A discussion of the paper Norway Experiencing Greatest Glacial Activity in the past 1,000 year

  72. Joe Drager says:

    It snows in winter; go figure.

  73. Bull Shysta says:

    It was global warming until Al Gore sold his interest in the Chicago Carbon Exchange for millions of dollars then it became Climate Change which has led to $3.00 incandescent light bulbs becoming an endangered species forcing average U.S. citizens to purchase $15 mercury filled CFL bulbs, further filling Gore’s wallet via his interest in the manufactures of CFL bulbs and the smart meters utility companies are installing at homes around the nation. All this while Al Gore uses 20 times the electricity of the average U.S. citizen and buys “carbon credits” from his own company to offset his waste. A total inconvenient hippocrit

  74. Mac the Knife says:

    John M says:
    February 7, 2014 at 5:36 pm
    Great Lakes all on one slide with thicknesses added.
    Interesting that some areas less than 100% covered still have pieces of ice 12-24 inches thick.

    John M,
    That 12-24 inch thick ice is just the weak new ice, not the old thick ice like the Great Lakes used to have! You know, the mile thick old ice we used to get before man made global warming?! Now that made the ice fishing on Green Bay really rough, dontcha know?! };>)

  75. Babylonandon says:

    And its Freakin’ cold, too. Wisconsin WANTED Global Warming. Crap its already February and its still 7º and the WC is -7º.

    WTH! I WANTED MY DARN PALM TREES!!!!

  76. Don Butler says:

    Why do you people remind me of Icarus? Man is in control of the heavens and earth. Anthony has been right about this from day one. Thanks.

  77. Scott says:

    I live in Wooster, Ohio. Frost line today is 22 inches. It’s been cold!

  78. Joe says:

    The far north of North America is abnormally warm now; basically we have their weather now, they have ours…

  79. Uh, didn’t Gaseous Al Gore recently build a mansion in the tsunami zone where it will get flattened if his bullshirt man-made global warming propaganda were actually true to reality?

  80. Uh, didn’t Gaseous Al Gore recently build a mansion in the tsunami zone where it will get flattened if his phony-baloney man-made global warming propaganda were actually true to reality?

  81. Alan Robertson says:

    Gail Combs says:
    February 7, 2014 at 6:14 pm
    I have good news. Obama is shutting down 10% of the US electrical generating capacity by 2015 but it is not evenly spread out. Most of it is in a three state circle around Washington DC….
    ______________
    I.Can’t. Wait.

  82. wws says:

    Carbomontanus lightly mentioned “Fimbulwinter” – probably just a piece of old Norse mythology, but just possibly an ancient memory of a worldwide climactic event which occurred around 535 – 536.

    if it happened once, it can happen again.

  83. John Perram says:

    We must eliminate CO2 and kill all life on the planet…

  84. Follow these steps in order.

    Carefully set your drink down a safe distance from your keyboard.

    Google “Al Gore adductors second chakra”.

    Click on one of the top 3 or 4 links returned.

    Read the truth.

    Allow laughter to ensue.

  85. JMac says:

    Why can’t president obama just declare an executive order and dictate that as of February 7th temperatures below 32 in the continental United States are not allowed? Isn’t that what kings do?

  86. Gary says:

    My entire yard is covered in frozen snow. My driveway is still a frozen snow-packed wasteland. Did I mention I live just west of the land of cotton? Greetings from Arkansas. Snow-locked USA. At least they got the roads somewhat clear. The main roads that is. It is frigid and it must stop. We ain’t used to single digit mornings, teens for the high. Not like this. Everybody is complaining, praying for Spring. Word.

  87. Tom J says:

    I have to apologize to everybody here, in fact everybody in the US except for skiers. You know how when you bring an umbrella that ensures it doesn’t rain? Well, that works in reverse sometimes. This is the first year ever, in my entire life that I have ever bought … I can barely say it … snow tires.

    I’m sorry.

  88. oracle2world says:

    Snow tires? WTF? How about chains too?

  89. Gary says:

    Climate/Weather, Climate/Weather – I know, I know. As the climate warms the weather cools. I get that. At least on the surface. It’s hard to wrap my head around. So as the earth quickly burns while it’s freezing, I will have known that I did good by paying extra for measures that brought about… what? Y’all tell me. The worm is turning. Opinion is turning. The climate might just be turning. At least for a little while ;-)

  90. Kristen says:

    well, we don’t have any here. the forecast for snow this weekend has been changed to no snow. it’s been sunny (unusual) and more clear than it has been for awhile. Just colder than normal. my son would like snow. every time he hears the temp, he says all we need is some precipitation and we can have snow. I can see new snow in the mts. – but they have been pretty sorry for snowpack so far this season.

  91. Mike Jonas says:

    Penny Robinson Fan Club Feb 7 3:56pm “First, one must define normal”. I did mean it as a serious question, but I didn’t mean anything precise by “normal”. Just that it would be interesting to know how often such conditions had occurred in the past. Obviously it is exceptional within the last 11 years, but that’s a pretty short period. What about the 1960s eg, or 1910s? I couldn’t find any data.

  92. ColKlink says:

    Southern Missouri has about 1″ snow & cold 3° temps. Better than ice cover.

  93. Eugene WR Gallun says:

    There is about 3 or 4 inches of snow on the streets of Portland, Oregon. Temperature was 16 degrees at noon. Supposedly more snow is coming tonight. This is a good weekend to play WOW and work on PLATO’S SYMPOSIUM. For Monday, they are predicting temperatures in the high forties.

    Eugene WR Gallun

  94. Nick says:

    The planet is warming; we’ve seen it! Theeere are fairies dancing at the bottom of my garden. I’ve seen them!

  95. Justin Case says:

    The Nature Nazis need to be placed into the dust bin of history with all the other clowns.

  96. John from Oz says:

    Americanman2012 says:
    “No one can change the weather by charging taxes.”

    Yes they can! Prime Minister Julia Gillard did just that in Australia 18 months ago and ever since her Carbon Tax was introduced global temperatures have gone south. North America, blame the freeze on Julia.

    We got rid of her and her government last year in the hope of warmer weather for all, but her stupid Labor Party Senators won’t vote for the Carbon Tax to be repealed. So we keep paying the carbon tax and North America keeps freezing.

    Oh the insanity of it all. When will it end?

  97. John F. Hultquist says:

    For those answering my question about lakes at 4:36:
    I have been monitoring the freeze up using one of the sites mentioned in a comment. I have a relative that lives in one of the “lake-effect” zones and poke a bit of fun her way when she gets buried. With Lake Erie covered in ice the snow on the ground is hardly worth mentioning. The temp in Cleveland is now 6° F, on its way to -1° F. Ouch! [5:16 Z, on the 8th]

    I still think the Lakes ought to be shown with “snow depth” unless the sensors can’t do snow over ice.

  98. Janice Moore says:

    Joe? (at 6:55pm today) I just looked up the weather about 5 minutes ago here:
    http://weather.gc.ca/canada_e.html

    And selected temps. from “far north of North America”:

    Whitehorse minus17
    Yellowknife minus 29
    Iqaluit minus 18
    St. John’s minus 11

    And even farther north… as in at 82 deg. 30 min., at Alert, Nunavit: minus 31
    (Source: http://weather.gc.ca/city/pages/nu-22_metric_e.html)

    Your move, Joe. Show us the historical temps. that prove that it is significantly warmer this year in the far north of North America.

    Re: “…they have ours.” ?? As in what location? Are you coming to us from your tent high in the Andes? Your little ice hut on Lake Michigan? The meat locker in your cousin Leroy’s butcher shop?

  99. Dr. Pepper says:

    I am in Newberg Oregon. We have 12 inches of snow on the ground. Global warming my ass.

  100. Darren Potter says:

    Based on Global Warming and 4-inches of snow in my yard, I can only conclude that increased levels of man-made CO2 has raised freezing temperature of water by 1.5 degrees F.

    /sarc (In case Al Gore or Michael Mann reads this…)

  101. Mike R from frozen ND says:

    HEY PORTER!! HEY PORTER!! I still can’t figure out whether you are worried about your elite, high priced ski resorts going under or that global warming isn’t being taken seriously. (NYT article) Since you have personally assured all of us that global warming caused by humans is no longer a discussion but a fact, I don’t understand why you are still trying to convince all of us. And since you leave no room for comments on your article I presume you are afraid of some serious discussion of your so-called “undisputed facts”. Keep beatin the drum, Porter….someone might listen. But then they may disagree with you. Here’s hoping you can save winter. ( I can’t believe I just said that)

  102. Darren Potter says:

    oracle2world says: “Snow tires? WTF? How about chains too?”

    4×4 with studded snow tires on all 4, and 200 pounds of sand in back.
    The aforementioned is for getting you in to trouble, the chains are reserved for getting you out.
    :O

  103. bay lamb says:

    bwaahahahahahaahahaaaa!!!! Are y’all having fun DRIVING in the SNOW???? You see *this* is why you’re so good at it… because you live in SUCKVILLE!!!!! Don’t worry, it’ll be gone by the end of May, lol. Meanwhile, we in the South are stocking up on SALT… for our MARGARITAS!!!!!

  104. Bruno says:

    Oh joy global warming has sure made it cold. Where’s al gore when you need him. What a laugh!

  105. Dale Muncie says:

    It is warmer in my refridgerator than outdoors. Vancouver, WA.

  106. Gino says:

    Well, In the winter of ’78 it snowed enough in Tucson Az for me to make a 2ft snow man in my backyard. The summer before when I was living in Germany they had a week of 80 degree weather and it was the worst drought anyone could remember. So, all of this is business as usual. Sorry Mr. Mann.

  107. Jason says:

    Now can Al Gore (who won a Pulitzer for his global warming farce) and all of the LibTards EVERYWHERE STFU and just admit they were wrong?! Oh wait, colder winters go hand in hand with global warming, I forgot. Seriously! These people need to form their own little island commune and leave the world alone. Enough with the lies and hidden agendas!

  108. ldd says:

    The V shape of snow cover represents the images of the radar (in the Live Weather Roll sidebar) for much of this winter; big semi-continent sized white V’s of cloud cover or at least the east half of one, Huge white streak that runs the continent from Texas into the Atlantic provinces of Canada.
    Been many very cold nights and days here in eastern Ontario – lots of nights in the -20C’s and 30C’s. Crazy multiply vehicle pile ups on the highways, reminds me of the 70′s in many ways.

    Sadly I believe the ones who say there may be indications we may be hitting a cold/cool spell.

  109. Txomin says:

    Snow is a thing of the past. Enjoy with while it lasts.

  110. Eric Simpson says:

    A reporter panics outside Philadelphia about the coming ice storm:

  111. Jason says:

    Txomin AKA Al Gore.

  112. Jason says:

    Blame it on the gun owners. I’m sure this is our fault too.

  113. ROM says:

    Meanwhile just for interest, here in Horsham in the west of the state of Victoria right down in the SE of Australia the official temperature at our airfield at 5.30 pm ESDT [ 6.30 UTC ] is still running at a nice warm 41.5 C [ 107 F ] after reaching a top of 42.9 C [ 109 F ] about 40 minutes ago.

    We finished launching about 30 gliders from our airfield in that 40 degree heat around 2 pm on what is the last day of our 48th consecutive Horsham Week 8 day long gliding competition.
    The big open and racing class gliders are on a task some 700 kms long and are enjoying, along with the other class pilots, the cool airs of a 12,000 to 14,000 foot cloud base [ For pilots, ground elevation here is 440 ft ASL ] They will probably take about 5- 1/2 hours or considerably less to complete the task and arrive back later this evening.
    As we say, you don’t have to be mad to get involved with gliding particularly for the ground crews but it helps !
    And we are still a degree or more away from the top temperature today as measured in a couple of other regional localities.

    After all the woe and bitching about the extreme cold and snow and etc , I just thought I might enliven your day with a short version of how the other half lives. :-)

  114. Colorado Wellington says:

    Jo Gregg says:
    February 7, 2014 at 4:20 pm

    Meanwhile, in a surreal (albeit increasingly frequent) coincidence, the NYT has a column entitled “The End of Snow”…..

    I’m not sure when it happened but the master of juxtaposition Matt Drudge has the NYT article and this WUWT post linked at the top:

    NYT: The End of Snow?

    Over two-thirds of continental USA covered…

    Matt must be pleased by the well-timed idiocy of the New York Times piece. I guess at least some of the delighted commenters come here from the Drudge Report.

  115. [snip . . you may well be correct but it is off topic. . . mod]

  116. Colorado Wellington says:

    Eric Simpson says:
    February 7, 2014 at 10:43 pm

    A reporter panics outside Philadelphia about the coming ice storm …

    Thanks for a great link. I think the reporter is describing the developing dangerous situation quite well. She speaks emphatically but I don’t sense panic. She understands that a multi-day ice storm without power will lead to a crisis for many unprepared people.

  117. Sue says:

    It’s my birthday and I wished for snow…sorry!

  118. Pointman says:

    Nearly everywhere you look, that white stuff keeps piling up; Maine, Nebraska, Ohio, Texas, Chicago (ungrateful recipient of 33.7 inches of white stuff), Kansas City, Indianapolis and New York City.

    http://thepointman.wordpress.com/2014/02/06/gott-mit-uns/

    Pointman

  119. Janice Moore says:

    Eric Simpson — That reporter’s unprofessional editorializing (she was making educated guesses NOT reporting, (headshake)) in such an obnoxiously strident tone was SO annoying that I could only listen to her to the 40 sec. mark. AAAaaaaaa! Half the people are probably already DEAD in that town because the sound of her voice coming over their TV sets (controlled by their spouse or roommate or dad or whoever who didn’t mind the brain-grating sound of an adult spoiled brat-type voice) drove them out of their houses where they quickly succumbed to hypothermia — anything but that voice!!!!!!

    Mr. Wellington — you have a gracious and amazingly high tolerance for an annoying female voice. I sure hope it isn’t from years of having to endure such a voice… (“… and I told you I wanted that done before I got home and what did you do? You sat around all afternoon watching football and now it’s getting too damp to paint and how many times have I reminded you this week that we NEED to get that garage painted and I suppose you forgot to pick up the dry cleaning and did you remember to buy dog food and why are you wearing that shirt again and …… ” — lovely, hm?)

    Whoa. THAT was awful.

  120. Janice Moore says:

    Nice post at 10:52pm, Mr. Wellington — delightful irony, indeed.

  121. maroon vee says:

    NYTs is wondering why they are losing their revenue… 12%… Today they reported it’s the END Of Snow… I am not kidding.

  122. YouGotToBeKiddingMe says:

    Global warming is giving me frostbite.

  123. YouGotToBeKiddingMe says:

    I yearn for the good old days, you know, the ice age.

  124. ren says:

    Polar vortex will withdraw after the 12 February, will be closer to Europe. Winter lasts.
    http://earth.nullschool.net/#2014/02/12/0600Z/wind/isobaric/70hPa/orthographic=25.39,93.04,481

  125. Kim Paulsen says:

    If you really believe this cold is caused by the warming of the planet ! You need to be dragged kicking and screaming from your home and staked in the snow till you are part of the fossil record.

  126. tty says:

    As of this moment you can ski from Dallas to Kabul or Teheran. Can’t make it to Baghdad though, the white stuff runs out about a hundred miles short.

  127. Al Gore says:

    This is what happens when you don’t pay your carbon offsets.

  128. Richards in Vancouver says:

    You fools! You blind, credulous fools! That’s not snow out there.
    It’s ash. Fine white ash. From all the heat.
    Feel better now?
    /off

  129. Colorado Wellington says:

    Janice Moore says:
    February 8, 2014 at 12:02 am

    You showed me a perspective I failed to consider, my fair lady Janice. My tolerance may be higher but I do find displeasure in the kind of discourse you describe. And if there is musical quality to the reporter’s voice then it is music I generally avoid.

    Do you remember the celebrated reporting by Deborah Feyerick on CNN assignment in Watertown?

    “Something just happened. We don’t know what it is.”

    “Something has just happened. Police officers are running, we have a dog, a dog that’s on its way. Interesting, that dog is barking. Whether that’s a canine, we don’t know.”

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnn-reporter-on-the-scene-in-watertown-reports-interesting-that-dog-is-barking

  130. ren says:

    Why models do not provide for such behavior polar vortex?
    Because there foresee that the sun goes to sleep.

  131. Leon Brozyna says:

    Paraphrasing a sign seen outside a local church last month … Whoever’s been praying for snow — please stop … we have enough.

  132. Peter Mott says:

    In England it has been very mild – most of the South West has been flooded, the Somsert Levels for weeks – but no snow/ice. Where I live in Yorkshire it has been veryu mild, not a snow flake has fallen and not a sliver of ice has formed on little pond. Nice. Min you 2010 was a pig of a winter here.

  133. Al Gore stated quite clearly that the polar ice caps would be melted by now. We need to petition the White House that upon Al Gore’s death, he be frozen and put on permanent display at the Smithsonian… A small placard “Manbearpig” will be all the reminder the world needs.

  134. The insanity of the global warmists can best be found here: http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/warmlist.htm

  135. Jimbo says:

    Here is a reminder of what they told us to expect in a Warmer world. Over 60 quotes promising warm winters with less snow.

    Here is a sample.

    “Warm Winters Result From Greenhouse Effect, Columbia Scientists Find, Using NASA Model …
    Despite appearing as part of a natural climate oscillation, the large increases in wintertime surface temperatures over the continents may therefore be attributable in large part to human activities,”
    Science Daily, Dr. Drew Shindell 4 June 1999
    ————–
    According to Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia, within a few years winter snowfall will become “a very rare and exciting event”.

    Children just aren’t going to know what snow is,” he said.
    David Viner, Climatic Research Unit, University of East Anglia, 20 March 2000
    ————–
    “Snowlines are going up in altitude all over the world. The idea that we will get less snow is absolutely in line with what we expect from global warming.”
    WalesOnline, Sir John Houghton – atmospheric physicist, 30 June 2007
    ————–
    “In summer under certain conditions the scientists reckon with a complete melting of the Arctic sea ice. For Europe we expect an increase in drier and warmer summers. Winters on the other hand will be warmer and wetter.”
    Erich Roeckner, Max Planck Institute, Hamburg, 29 Sept 2005
    ————–
    “We have seen that in the last years and decades that winters have become much milder than before and that there isn’t nearly as much snowfall. All simulations show this trend will continue in the future and that we have to expect an intense warming in the Alps. [...] especially in the foothills, snow will turn to rain and winter sports will no longer be possible anymore.”
    Mojib Latif, Leibnitz Institute for Oceanography, University of Kiel, February 17, 2005
    ————–
    Unfortunately, it’s just getting too hot for the Scottish ski industry.”
    David Viner, Climatic Research Unit, University of East Anglia, 14 Feb 2004

    And now back to reality.

    7 February 2014
    Flooding, snow cause chaos in Europe

    7th February 2014
    Heavy snow hits the Alps (again)

    5th February 2014
    “Scots ski resorts enjoying more snow than Russian Winter Olympics”
    Glenshee Ski Centre in the southern Cairngorms has been plagued by storms since November and is currently experiencing ten metres of snow, compared to the 1.5 metres found in most of Sochi, the Russian city which is hosting the Games……

    He said: “We’ve got more snow in places than we’ve seen in 20 years. We’re having to dig down to where the ski lifts are……
    http://news.stv.tv/highlands-islands/262966-glenshee-and-nevis-range-have-more-snow-than-sochi-slopes/

  136. Chris Wright says:

    Much more of this global warming and we’re going to freeze to death….
    Chris

  137. Joe Fulton says:

    Did anyone read Peter Fox editorial in the New York Times on this subject, “No more snow”? I think he may have been hanging out with Philip Seymour Hoff man or at least got into some of his dope. What a moron..

  138. Awesome watching the global warming stuff usher in our next ice age….

  139. Vince says:

    You’re all being taken for suckers. Bush, the Koch Brothers, and Dick Cheney hired a mad scientist like Mr. Freeze from Batman to create a weather freezing machine. That’s why it seems like Global Warming is not true.

  140. Mike hunt says:

    Yet the NY times is running articles about all the snow disappearing and how ski slopes are all going out of business….PS) Al Gore just bought a 20% share of a fracking company. These global warming cult members are seriously mental.

  141. jon says:

    I’d like to know what that famous South American climate scientist, Alberto Gorez, has to say about this.

  142. ren says:

    Clear increase of temperature in the upper stratosphere.

  143. herkimer says:

    JIMBO
    You can add this to your list of bad snow prediction reports

    THIN ICE: WINTER SPORTS AND CLIMATE CHANGE – Report by the DAVID SUZUKI FOUNDATION. issued in 2010
    Predicting that the average cross-country ski season in Quebec will be cut in half in only 10 years and a complete wipe out by 2050

    There is no shortage of snow in Canada and the winter temperatures have been below freezing in the entire country ,coast to coast this past week

  144. herkimer says:

    Here are the Canadian current temperatures

    http://weather.gc.ca/canada_e.html

  145. Carbomontanus says:

    @ ren
    hwere do you have it from?

    That is normally a good signal. It means that the sun is coming back in the spring and Ozone is building back up there.

    There has also been a very big sunspot right towards us with aurorae and that is a lot of more UV and x- rays in this direction making Ozone up there, which is what can possibly warm up by the sun.

    The snake (midgardsormen) will like it. Then he goes home.

  146. It doesn't add up... says:

    Shouldn’t this lot have some recent data?

    http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Observing_the_Earth/Reflecting_on_Earth_s_albedo

    Odd that they have nothing beyond 2011 in the public domain. Perhaps they’re hiding it in the deep ocean.

  147. ren says:

    Carbomontanus says
    @ ren
    hwere do you have it from?
    That is normally a good signal. It means that the sun is coming back in the spring and Ozone is building back up there.
    It’s too early. Polar vortex release.
    http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/strat-trop/gif_files/time_pres_TEMP_ANOM_ALL_NH_2013.gif

  148. Jimbo says:

    herkimer says:
    February 8, 2014 at 5:13 am

    JIMBO
    You can add this to your list of bad snow prediction reports

    Thanks for that. The list however focuses on what ‘climate scientists’, scientific organisations such as the IPCC said or published. There are just a couple from non climate scientists who should know better such as a botanist. If we included what activists, NGOs etc. have said then Warmists can easily dismiss it.

  149. Pedro Rutah says:

    I don’t trust this. I looks more like places where it has snowed. The snow blip for SE VA and NE NC have been gone for almost a week. More BRAVO SIERRA from the [snip]

  150. Santa Fe Steve says:

    The NYT ran a story today that is not even consistent with the IPCC AR5 WG1 Report. They have become a tabloid.

  151. Matt Starnes says:

    We got another “dusting” of global warming last night here in Missouri. By dusting I mean another few inches of global warming. Global warming sucks!

  152. gerry d welder says:

    [snip waaayyy waaayyy off topic - mod]

  153. brutis bear says:

    To all the global warming camps. This is not global warming as it is not just the earth warming but our whole solar system is warming not just the earth. So how is my tractor melting ice caps on Mars? Or Pluto for that matter. NASA has the information pertaining to solar system is warming not just the earth.
    In the time of the Roman empire the earth was even warmer than it is today.
    Propaganda to get you global warming parrots to pay carbon taxes.
    Fact of the matter you will never have petroleum taken off the market and you will never be able to bring about change because it would destroy the continuity of the governments and mega corporations wealth.
    Try to build anything off grid or live off grid and your local code enforcers will be there to fine you or CPS will take your children.
    We shall.always be.slaves to the grid and the ruling class. Energy independence is the establishments doom. Slaves all.of you!

  154. probono says:

    So Drudge juxtaposes this article with one from the NYT editorial page descrying the decreased skiing opportunities because of global warming. He demands we do something to reduce our CO2 emmisions. Has anyone ever explained to that genius how much energy it takes to fly thousands of people to Denver, drive them, plus all the locals, an extra 3/4 mile higher, and them lift them up an additional 2500 feet into the sky? Not to mention all the food, water, snow making, etc. Geez, every sidewalk was heated where we stayed last time.

    These guys a certifiable.

  155. Rex says:

    GLOBAL (ALL over the world) WARMING makes the climate (THE WEATHER in an area) get colder!

    Everyone knows WARMING temperatures make it get colder!

    WHY? Because Obama said so!

    “The science is settled”

    What HASN’T Obama lied about?

  156. Leo Glunk says:

    Wasn’t their A documentary about this were Dennis Quad rescues everyone after all the Ice causes Guam to sink?

  157. Rex says:

    Have democrat stupes and fools ever bothered to look up the word GLOBAL or CLIMATE in the dictionary?

    Climate – THE WEATHER prevailing in an area…..

    Judging from all of the ridiculous lies Democrats are telling, the answer is a resounding NO!

    GLOBAL Warming means it is getting warmer ALL OVER THE GLOBE…..since CO2 levels have risen past 400 ppm, please explain WHY the polar icecaps BOTH grew in 2013?

    DEMOCRATS are LIARS!

  158. probono says:

    But the authors passionate pleas have moved my globally warmed heart. I am going to form a new foundation. Jet Skiers and wake boarders against Global Warming.

  159. Rex says:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/snowfalls-are-now-just-a-thing-of-the-past-724017.html

    Manmade GLOBAL WARMING LIARS said snowfalls would soon disappear, BACK IN 2000!

    IF Democrats and Socialists could not lie, they would be silent!

  160. Rex says:

    The ObowelMovement just said that the internal combustion engine caused global warming on Mars and Saturn!

    “settled science” say the stupid

    Will RAISING TAXES by TRILLIONS on WORKING PEOPLE help end global warming on other planets?

    Democrat cowards have no answers, only new lies…..

  161. That’s what I love New York Times so much. They are always on top of things. Have you people read the article “The End of Snow?” published by PORTER FOX on FEB. 7, 2014?
    Jesus, these people know how to write. Specially fantasy.

    Have a good day!

  162. Jim says:

    That darned carbon dioxide has reversed its effect again! What to do….Need the whole Hockey team, not just a stick.

  163. trev says:

    Come on over to san diego. No ice here

  164. Pamela Gray says:

    The local paper reports that the USDA idiot says our extreme storms dumping all that snow in the mountains is a result of climate extremes caused by current levels of CO2. How does he think we got snow pack up the arse decades ago when CO2 was lower? What village decided to become all idiots and send the whole town to Washington DC????? ARE WE LOSING OUR MINDS?????

    We need a national constitutional level amendment to add “none of the above” to our voting choices. That way we can have a revolution without firing a single shot. Right now I think the best thing that could happen in the next election is to elect nobody and just shutter the place up.

  165. Gunga Din says:

    And here I thought all the snow landed in my driveway….

  166. Jim says:

    Global Warming is a religion, Mr. Gore is the chief priest, and the collages are working on creating missionaries, and the government is forcing it’s religion on us.
    Think I’m kidding.
    When was the last time the weatherperson could tell you what the weather was going to be like a week from now and be a 100% right?
    We just take them on faith … Right

  167. Blast you lying LIBS! We were promised an end to winters by now. I’ve been driving nothing but SUV’s or LARGE pickup trucks since the mid nineties. All in an attempt to end these gawd awful winters. We were deceived! I spent thousands of extra dollars in gasoline and home heating bills. I was lead to believe it would be for the greater good! I lit tire fires, sprayed aerosol cans, wasted water, and refused to car pool because you treacherous “global warming” preachers assured us it would work! Now I see it was all for nothing. Despite our best efforts, winters are getting worse, summers are staying the same, and spring and fall are still just beautiful. Please cancel my subscription to “The sky is falling monthly”.

  168. Carbomontanus says:

    @ all and everyone

    tty remarks that now you can go by ski from Dallas to Teheran.

    Yes, really remarkable.

    Then a few persons find it counter- dicting global warming.

    That idea or syndrom is typical of psychologically inferiour dia- lectic materialism. Rather take a good example from me. I tell you proper fairy- tales if there is anything more. I do not fight science.

    I wrote a long lecture on the principle of Le Chatelier.

    You see, if it is heated, there will be more vapour in the air. That follows from the vapour pressure curve of water. Then, will there also be more winds? I don`t know. Anthony Watts must answer to that as a meteorologist. Rumors say that there will be more winds.

    But Aristoteles says that what goes up must come down again (where were you when elementary scolastics was told in public school?)

    Now we have middle of February, that is normal temperature minimum on the northern hemisphere, and remark extreemly intensely, when the IOC allways arranges winter olympics.

    Thus thinking in terms of the principle of Le Chatelier makes this go very well together. That ma snow does not counter- dict,…….. it does counter- act! global warming.

    Thus a signal of global warming. Pay chosmetic surgery and get rid of that Dia- lectic materialism and use Le Chateliers Principle as your body lotion instead, and you will easily see this.

    It is a typical negative feedback, one of the very fameous Thermostat- effects related to water, and telling that we seem well away from any “runaway effect” and rather at a complex eqvilibrium. Not at a silly “Cycle”. Because, that idea is also old Hegelian Marxist vulgar Dia- lectic materialist childish phantacies from the STALIN epoch. .

    Thus, If you just amputate Dia- lectic materialism and resign og fighting a hockeystick, reallizing that it is perhaps rather a scytch and not a hocke\ystick, and resign on that silly thinktank republican war against science…..

    ……then all this snow can rather be seen as a very positive and a healthy signal from Reality and from “GAIA” or rather KALI we call her.

    The whiteness of snow, the Albedo is also another property of that fameous material.

    Here on our side it is rather warm and England reports pissing and raining. I have a fingerwidth above freezing point, it is practically zero outdoor.

    By this precipitation we will further exel in hydroelectric power.

    Snow on the prairies,…. how marvellous!

    In California they pray for rain.

  169. Pamela Gray says:

    Janice I fail to understand your continued use of stereotyped discourse of the female gender. It is anecdotal nonsense that continues unfounded notions undergirding gender-based discriminatory thought and action. I wish you would stop and think before you add these not cute vignettes of yours. You are better than what you write sometimes.

  170. I brought attention to the significance of jet stream shifts in 2008:

    “If jet streams, on average, are further south then the high pressure systems to the north of them predominate and the globe is cooling. If, on average, they are further north then high pressure to the south of them predominates and the globe is warming.”

    http://www.newclimatemodel.com/weather-is-the-key-after-all/

  171. Jim says:

    Here in Northern Illinois Global Warming occurs only part of the year…about every May through early October it seems to be warmer than say November through April. I’m no scientist but this seems to be a reoccurring event.

  172. Pamela Gray says:

    Stephen, the underlying atmospheric parameters of the Arctic Oscillation has been known for quite some time (including the weather pattern shifts and jet stream meandering) and is part of every scientific research climate site I am aware of. However, your mechanism for the cause of a shifting jet stream is wholly unsubstantiated. That you continue to link to it as if is was demonstrates a willingness to spout unsubstantiated theories CO2 proponents possess. So do your readers a favor and put in parenthesis prior to your link that your theory is unsubstantiated.

  173. Jimbo says:

    Check out this image of the top of a ski lift in Scotland. Not long ago it was getting too hot for the Scottish snow industry.

    BBC – 8 February 2014
    Skiers, climbers and walkers have been warned to be aware of a danger created by huge amounts of snow and high winds in Scotland’s mountains.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-26088292

    One by one their canaries are dropping like flies.

  174. Pamela,

    I will continue to link to my hypothesis until it is discredited.

    The essential difference to all other hypotheses is that a quiet sun warms the stratosphere at upper levels and towards the poles rather than cooling it as per established climatology.

    One must have that effect in order to cause more meridional jets at a time of a quiet sun as in the LIA and the mid 20th century cooling period and now.

    A warmer stratosphere pushes the height of the tropopause downward.

    To get the jets to dive equatorward requires a lowering of tropopause height towards the poles relative to the tropopause height at the equator.

    Can you discredit that assertion ?

  175. echo sierra says:

    Maybe someone got the sign wrong in all those models and we’re actually heading for the next Ice Age.

  176. echo sierra says:

    Like I’ve always told most weather guessers throughout the years, “try looking out the window once and awhile.”

  177. Russ R. says:

    The reason it is sooo cold is simple: A lack of climate hubs!
    If only we had thought of this sooner, we would all be enjoying perfectly “average” temperatures.
    What a wise usage of the public’s hard-earned tax dollars. Turn down the heater, and save money, so we can afford “climate hubs”!!
    /sarc
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/05/obama-next-executive-action-to-address-climate-change/

  178. Jack Bolly says:

    Everyone now in your best Bill Murray/ Ghostbusters voice ‘Gloooobaaal Waaaarmmming, AGGGH!

  179. VERNON M. bonagofski says:

    10″ of snow = 1″ of rain.

  180. Janice Moore says:

    Sue says: (2/7/14 at 11:36 pm) “It’s my birthday” — HAPPY BIRTHDAY, SUE! Have fun building snow people and sledding and stuff….. while poor, ol’, Gunga Din shovels and shovels and shovels out his driveway. #(;))
    *******************************************************

    @ Rex — Gooo, Rex! #(:))
    **********************************************
    Major Beatdown (8:24am) — LOVE it. Fun humor!
    *****************************************************
    Dear Pamela,

    I’m glad that in your neck of the woods women don’t talk like that (my example of a nagging wife at 12:02am v. a v. Eric Simpson’s 10:43pm video comment) anymore. I value your opinion of me, so I want to make it clear that I don’t think that all women talk that way to their husbands. Further, many lazy slobs-of-husbands certainly merit such a harangue. Around here, though, there are still a LOT (no, not all) of bossy women who talk that way without cause to considerate, meek, men who just put up with it. And, to show that I’m “fair and balanced,” (heh) I’ll add that there are also still, unfortunately, many Archie Bunkers still verbally abusing the Ediths of the world, too.

    The news “reporter” in the video would be obnoxious to me whether he or she is a man or a woman. Thank you for pointing out a flaw in my metaphor for Lord Wellington of Colorado: he may have become inured to such a voice by a man in his life and I completely forgot about that possibility.

    Thanks for keeping me on my thinking and writing toes, Pamela. I get lazy… . You are a gifted teacher — your students are blessed.

    Your friend,

    Janice
    *****************************************************************
    My Dear Lord Wellington,

    How do you do it? In one sweet phrase, my fair lady Janice, you sent Springtime into my winter-weary heart…… and I sigh. So good to hear from you again. Please greet the honorable (and blessed) Lady Wellington for me.

    Yours with a wistful smile,

    Janice

  181. Teddy Novak says:

    Global warming (aka climate change) is the religion of the stupid.

    http://www.zazzle.com/FirstPrinciples?rf=238518351914519699

  182. Would somebody contact the folks at the NCDC and ask them to adjust their temperature data for the year up at least another few degrees, because reality is simply TOO COLD!

  183. KN says:

    Here is “Hot” Springs, Arkansas we have 4″ on the ground, temperatures at night in the teens and 20′s for the past week and projected for another week. My natural gas usage for heating for this past November was double the previous 5 Novembers average. December’s usage was up 70%. I will get January’s usage in this week. It will not be pretty.

  184. Gunga Din says:

    Just how soon did they say that Global Warming was going to ruin the skiing industry?

  185. I live in Southern Vermont and(believe me)it is WARM HERE!It got up to 3-degrees fahrenheit last night!!!

  186. Just Don't Recall says:

    [snip -pointless political rant, off topic -mod]

  187. Janice Moore says:

    Hi, Gunga Din!

    How’s the shovelin’ going? Hope you are now enjoying some hot chocolate in a warm house.

    How soon, you ask? Well, heh, heh, one thing’s for sure, it will never be the current year… . So, we’re okay for this winter! lol

    Take care,

    Janice
    *******************************************

    Fantasy ALWAYS involves the distant in: 1) time; or 2) location (bottom of oceans… the North Pole…. )

    Yo! All you snowboarders? “PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT {FANTASY SCIENCE} MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!” — for … “Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow… .” (MacBeth)

    #(:))

    Verse for the Day:

    “As long as the earth endures,
    seedtime and harvest,
    cold and heat,
    summer and winter,
    day and night
    will never cease.”

    Genesis 8:22.

  188. Norah says:

    isn’t that thing realy affecting humans?

  189. Carbomontanus says:

    Ladies and Gentlemen

    I looked up quite closely

    You can go skiing from Dallas in Texas to uphill Trieste in Italia and allmost to Basel

    Here in the Oslofjord we have swinging around Zero.
    Both Trondheim and Tromsø have it very warm

    Moskva has it warm but Jekaterineburg behind Ural is deep blue frost.

    But pleace rather think in terms of water. Will China and will California have enough water?

  190. clipe says:

    Joe says:
    February 7, 2014 at 6:55 pm

    The far north of North America is abnormally warm now; basically we have their weather now, they have ours

    Just got off the phone with my brother in Dawson City, Yukon.

    FPCN58 CWVR 081900
    Extended forecasts from Monday 10 February to Friday 14 February for
    yukon and northern british columbia issued by Environment Canada at
    11.00 am pst Saturday 8 February 2014.
    The next scheduled forecast will be issued at 4.00 pm.

    Whitehorse.
    Monday..Sunny. Low minus 27. High minus 19.
    Tuesday..Sunny. Low minus 27. High minus 21.
    Wednesday..Sunny. Low minus 28. High minus 21.
    Thursday..A mix of sun and cloud with 30 percent chance of flurries.
    Low minus 37. High minus 25.
    Friday..A mix of sun and cloud. Low minus 33. High minus 21.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 19. High minus 10.

    Teslin.
    Monday..Sunny. Low minus 30. High minus 19.
    Tuesday..Cloudy with 60 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 27.
    High minus 19.
    Wednesday..Sunny. Low minus 30. High minus 20.
    Thursday..A mix of sun and cloud with 40 percent chance of flurries.
    Low minus 31. High minus 22.
    Friday..Cloudy with 60 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 29. High
    minus 19.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 20. High minus 10.

    Atlin.
    Monday..Sunny. Low minus 26. High minus 19.
    Tuesday..A mix of sun and cloud with 60 percent chance of flurries.
    Low minus 26. High minus 18.
    Wednesday..Sunny. Low minus 30. High minus 19.
    Thursday..Cloudy with 60 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 29.
    High minus 20.
    Friday..Cloudy with 60 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 27. High
    minus 17.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 17. High minus 8.

    Haines Junction.
    Monday..Sunny. Low minus 31. High minus 19.
    Tuesday..Sunny. Low minus 30. High minus 20.
    Wednesday..Sunny. Low minus 32. High minus 23.
    Thursday..Sunny. Low minus 34. High minus 23.
    Friday..A mix of sun and cloud. Low minus 30. High minus 20.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 20. High minus 9.

    Kluane Lake.
    Monday..Sunny. Low minus 31. High minus 23.
    Tuesday..Sunny. Low minus 37. High minus 22.
    Wednesday..Sunny. Low minus 36. High minus 22.
    Thursday..Sunny. Low minus 34. High minus 24.
    Friday..Sunny. Low minus 32. High minus 21.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 26. High minus 11.

    Pelly – Carmacks
    Beaver Creek.
    Monday..Sunny. Low minus 31. High minus 22.
    Tuesday..Sunny. Low minus 36. High minus 25.
    Wednesday..Sunny. Low minus 38. High minus 27.
    Thursday..Sunny. Low minus 34. High minus 25.
    Friday..Sunny. Low minus 32. High minus 22.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 28. High minus 14.

    Faro – Ross River.
    Monday..Sunny. Low minus 34. High minus 21.
    Tuesday..Sunny. Low minus 34. High minus 25.
    Wednesday..Sunny. Low minus 36. High minus 23.
    Thursday..A mix of sun and cloud. Low minus 37. High minus 27.
    Friday..A mix of sun and cloud with 30 percent chance of flurries.
    Low minus 33. High minus 23.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 23. High minus 13.

    Mayo.
    Monday..Sunny. Low minus 38. High minus 27.
    Tuesday..Sunny. Low minus 38. High minus 30.
    Wednesday..Sunny. Low minus 40. High minus 31.
    Thursday..Sunny. Low minus 38. High minus 29.
    Friday..Sunny. Low minus 35. High minus 26.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 26. High minus 14.

    Dawson.
    Monday..Sunny. Low minus 40. High minus 29.
    Tuesday..Sunny. Low minus 41. High minus 32.
    Wednesday..Sunny. Low minus 42. High minus 31.
    Thursday..Sunny. Low minus 36. High minus 28.
    Friday..A mix of sun and cloud. Low minus 34. High minus 25.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 30. High minus 19.

    Dempster.
    Monday..Sunny. Low minus 28. High minus 26.
    Tuesday..Sunny. Low minus 26. High minus 23.
    Wednesday..Sunny. Low minus 30. High minus 26.
    Thursday..Sunny. Low minus 34. High minus 29.
    Friday..Sunny. Low minus 34. High minus 28.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 30. High minus 21.

    Old Crow.
    Monday..Sunny. Low minus 38. High minus 29.
    Tuesday..Sunny. Low minus 32. High minus 27.
    Wednesday..Sunny. Low minus 33. High minus 28.
    Thursday..Sunny. Low minus 32. High minus 28.
    Friday..Sunny. Low minus 32. High minus 28.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 30. High minus 21.

    Dease Lake.
    Monday..A mix of sun and cloud with 40 percent chance of flurries.
    Low minus 33. High minus 20.
    Tuesday..Cloudy with 60 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 25.
    High minus 18.
    Wednesday..Sunny. Low minus 27. High minus 18.
    Thursday..Cloudy with 60 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 23.
    High minus 15.
    Friday..Cloudy with 60 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 21. High
    minus 13.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 19. High minus 8.

    Cassiar Mountains.
    Monday..A mix of sun and cloud. Low minus 32. High minus 24.
    Tuesday..Cloudy with 60 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 28.
    High minus 22.
    Wednesday..A mix of sun and cloud with 30 percent chance of flurries.
    Low minus 34. High minus 21.
    Thursday..Cloudy with 60 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 26.
    High minus 19.
    Friday..Cloudy with 60 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 24. High
    minus 16.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 21. High minus 10.

    Watson Lake.
    Monday..Sunny. Low minus 28. High minus 21.
    Tuesday..Flurries. Low minus 29. High minus 21.
    Wednesday..A mix of sun and cloud with 40 percent chance of flurries.
    Low minus 30. High minus 22.
    Thursday..A mix of sun and cloud with 40 percent chance of flurries.
    Low minus 29. High minus 22.
    Friday..Cloudy with 40 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 27. High
    minus 19.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 25. High minus 12.

    Muncho Lake Park – Stone Mountain Park.
    Monday..A mix of sun and cloud with 30 percent chance of flurries.
    Low minus 31. High minus 22.
    Tuesday..Cloudy with 60 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 28.
    High minus 21.
    Wednesday..A mix of sun and cloud with 30 percent chance of flurries.
    Low minus 28. High minus 19.
    Thursday..Cloudy with 60 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 27.
    High minus 20.
    Friday..Cloudy with 60 percent chance of flurries. Low minus 24. High
    minus 18.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 19. High minus 7.

    Fort Nelson.
    Monday..Sunny. Low minus 28. High minus 22.
    Tuesday..A mix of sun and cloud with 30 percent chance of flurries.
    Low minus 28. High minus 22.
    Wednesday..Sunny. Low minus 29. High minus 18.
    Thursday..Sunny. Low minus 30. High minus 23.
    Friday..A mix of sun and cloud. Low minus 27. High minus 21.
    Normals for the period..Low minus 23. High minus 12.

    End

  191. Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha says:

    This cold is an ecological killer. Need to wait till Spring to see the disaster

  192. labillyboy says:

    Funny how even the weather has been politicized by the far left socialist Demokrat party in the United States. The idea that Anthropogenic global warming is even possible stretches the facts.

    Only 12,000 years ago the entire northern hemisphere was under hundreds of feet of ice. Obviously (thankfully) there has been some warming up since then or we’d all be squeezed in living along the equator. None to very little of this temperature change has taken place while human beings were producing gases. In fact, the biggest effect on global temperature is the Sun, not gases.

    Algore and his ilk have found that pouring tax money into the pockets of “scientists” to get them to create data that supports his carbon credit scheme to be quite profitable. Demokrat Socialists have also found the investment in the “scientists” to be beneficial to getting votes from those who blindly follow them.

    Will human production of CO2 cause some warming of the planet? Well not in the last 15 years or so… will the Earth go into another ice age at some point? YES… boy will the skiers be happy then.

  193. Janice Moore says:

    “… rather think in terms of water. Will China and will California have enough water… .” (Carb the Sweed o’ Montanus)

    Pardon my tone, Carb, but ever since you dissed my post of “The Hut Sut Song” (along with a Swedish folk song) replying to your post about Swedish folk music……., well, since then, I’ve had a bit of a frown on my face whenever I see your name (that and that fact that I usually can’t figure out what you are saying, heh).

    ANYWAY,

    The only intelligent answer to your question is: I don’t know.
    The question is moot as to causation (though not to casuistry, lol): There is nothing humans can do to significantly change the amount of rainfall ANYWHERE on earth.

    Now, preparing for drought, THAT is something we can do. Well, er, we could potentially do… . Thanks to the Envirostalinists, we’re flat broke!

    So…. just go snowboarding, eat some pizza, and sing the “Hut Sut Song.” Might as well be happy; there’s nothing you can do about the weather. Nope. Fretting about it is not doing something. So you might as well not.

    Worrying is POINTLESS.

    Skoal!

  194. Janice Moore says:

    “Swede” — “and the fact”

  195. Tim Allen says:

    Regarding the california drought, I live about 60 miles north of San Francisco. I have been keeping track of our rainfall via a rain gauge in our yard. Now, admittedly, I am no expert, and my dime store rain gauge can’t compete with instruments the sainted “experts” use, but in the last week we have had 15.6 inches of rain, and it is still pouring. Chains are required on the mountain passes. This cannot be good news for the water nazis, who were anticipating further power grabs in response to the “worst drought in human history”.
    I must disagree that this weather event will not have much impact, as I’ve read here. Also, another poster mentions that San Francisco has recorded .27″ in the last week. Thanks simply cannot be the case, and if the poster is citing a source, that source is wildly inaccurate.
    Finally, due to EPA edict, and a federal judge’s wrongheaded command, we are (and have been, throughout this drought) allowing EIGHT MILLION GALLONS of water to flow from the Sacramento River to the sea, bypassing reservoirs so that the delta smelt, a fish, yes a simple, fairly unremarkable fish is not adversely affected by efforts to store water. I don’t know if our other major rivers (Klamath, Scott, etc) are beneficiaries of this insane ruling, but I suspect they are.

  196. Pamela Gray says:

    Stephen, once again I have to remind you it is your duty to disprove your own idea. But I understand you do not have the proper facilities and backing to do such research. Okay, then I propose this: You must do the proper literature search for all possible causes of jet stream shift and then present your problem of why those causes cannot be the driver. You must then go on to present why your proposed driver can fill that role and the necessary research proposal to study it. I take it you do not have a graduate level course under your belt regarding research proposals. I would suggest you obtain a graduate level book on the process and rework your website into an acceptable and reasonable research proposal format. You neither need facilities or backing to do this kind of serious work.

  197. Tim Allen says:

    To correct or amplify, “thanks simply cannot be the case” should read “that”. Also, the eight million gallon remark should have been added to. That is eight million gallons PER HOUR, round the clock.

  198. Dave says:

    It’s about 70 and sunny here in the Hill Country. Ha, ha, ha.

  199. Pamela.

    All I need is observations over time. The real world will do the proving or disproving.

    So far it is going well.

    From 2004 to 2007 ozone amounts above 45km increased despite the quiet sun.

    The more meridional jets at a time of quiet sun have been accompanied by increased global cloudiness according to the Earthshine project and El Nino events have become less dominant.

    My hypothesis is based on actual observations and I need do nothing more than point to ongoing observational findings.

    If any events occur that disprove my hypothesis then I will be interested to hear about them.

    I take it that you are not aware of any such ?

  200. Pamela Gray says:

    Again, Stephen, your lack of knowledge regarding proper research into all possible causes is wanting. You must leave no stone unturned in your search for all causes. Observation will not prove anything. Observation has to do with the phenomenon being observed, such as a meandering jet stream, not the cause. The cause is an active process with little to do with observation.

  201. Janice Moore says:

    Mr. Wilde,

    Do you realize how very LONG a time you would need to make observations before you could assert with high confidence that the mere correlation you are observing was a cause?

    Q. Why do you not follow Ms. Gray’s WELL-informed (I’ve been reading her comments for about 9 months and I can see she is intelligent and knows her stuff) advice?

    Sincerely,

    Janice

  202. David says:

    What’s all the fuss about ? I live about 15 miles south of Detroit , it’s 77 and sunny . Just finished working in my garden , now headed for the golf course . No…. Wait .. Sorry … My head hurts !

  203. ren says:

    Pamela, Sun is working in the stratosphere from the top. Height of 45 km.
    http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/strat_a_f/gif_files/gfs_t01_nh_f00.gif

  204. John Tillman says:

    Pamela Gray says:
    February 7, 2014 at 6:06 pm
    The wheat farmers here at the base of the Blue Mountains in Oregon have this to say to “climate change” scientists: Change it back! The winter wheat roots indicate that Hell has officially frozen over!

    ——————————

    They’re lucky this year to have had snow on the ground when the worst freezing WX hit. Winter kill is less with a blanket of snow. The downside is that, as looks likely next week, a Chinook hits with rain, melting the snow & causing gulleys in the fields from the runoff. Depends upon how frozen the ground was before the snow. I’m happy not to have to worry about the WX any more. Always more things to go wrong with it than right.

  205. Bill says:

    I hope WUWT is checking with the fraud algore to get a comment on how this could possibly be happening. Maybe if the fraud is not available, the disingenuous scientists of the UK could comment.

  206. Halo says:

    Meanwhile in the central Finland: Barely just four inches of snow. Typically we have three to four times that much in February. More strangely we got cold weather from Siberia before any snow in January, though. And now we’re again at above zero temps and melting has began. Maybe another Siberia without snow cover in the coming weeks? Weird weird winter..

  207. Whiplash says:

    The NYT knows “The End of Snow” is not upon us nor is it on any imaginable horizon. They also know their acolytes (read: idiots who believe everything MSM and the MSNBC/NYT utter) do not investigate to discern any veracity in said statements, so MSM and the Times can make whatever asinine pronouncement they wish. Their followers do what followers do and follow along the party line, repeating the talking points ad nauseum.

  208. Carbomontanus says:

    @janike moor

    You are wrong again. I know better. ;-)

    We had so much drought that we found it necessary to dig up and restore an old water hole. and install new devices.

    When it came on, it started to rain, and It has rained steadily ever since,… so that is the way!

    Another method is to repair or restore the roof.

    Take off the tiles, it may have been dry for weeks,….the rain will be pouring down in just a few hours. It never fails,..

    But there were 2 brothers out there in Onsøy where my name comes from, (I am McKolberg from Odins-ey you see.)

    One of them was so strange that he could not live among people, so he lived out in a cave at the sea and one could see him rowing in his boat with a line hanging after. What he caught was put on the seat , he sat on it and rowed on……. until it was “tender” so he could eat.

    And thus the Lord cdid care for him for many years.

    The other brother was more social. One year they had a quite severe draught so the peasants decided to go to church together and rather pray for rain.

    That brother however stepped up with a parachute. All laughed at him an said How can it rain when it has not rained for several weeks?

    But the brother meant that if they were going to pray for rain he should also bring with him a parachute.

    They went in and prayed. And as they came out the rain was pouring down.

    The brother then just opened his parachute and was the only one who came dry home.

    But when I think of it, maybe he was not so stupid after all. Because Prof. A Næss of Logics has told that the statement “…It rains or it rains not… ” is a true statement, on which one can be absolutely sure.

    So if it had not rained, he could have criticized the church. An if it had rained he could score very high with that parachute. He was maybe well conscidered and prepared for all cases.

    Doing something with the weather,… the rule says that there is no bad weather only bad dressing. (Ikke dårlig vær, bare dårlige klær. Dårlig rather means foolish Cfr German Tor = fool.)

    That may be the best rule. indeed you can do something with the weather. You can prepare for it. For instance by not doing foolish things that cannot take the weather.

    Forecast and a bit respect for Nature is quite important.

    Now for instance, our cellar pump is running. I also have a pump in reserve.

    Those pumps have ran more and more along with the raising of the Mahuna Loa curve.

    And the community has renovated the water and sewage system.

    One must resign on a bit “luxury” and rather invest in things that enables us to live with and tacle the enviroment and the foreseable future. Rajendra Pachauri has said that “no one will have to resign on his living standard. We must only learn to chose other values!”
    I agree quite thorroughly. Eaclty that is what has given me a very high living standard.

    Who are to be blamed if society is not arranged that way? (to secure your living standard)

    Well that is a political problem is n`t it?

    I find, people do not agree on reality. They obviously live in different realities. But there is one and only one universe or reality. That is my opinion but that is not agreed on.

    “Reason is a lonely thing, you are allways alone with it…” F.Stabel.

    Not all predictions of IPCC come true and especially not in detail. But I am prepared for that, and try rather and se the essence and the core of what they deliver, which is healthy, and will be true in any case, and then prepare also for the eventualities. To be able to live with uncertainties is quite important.

    Human error will be the worst threat in any case and can be predicted rather for sure.
    Again we have a very good rule ERRARE HVMANVM EST.

    Worrying is pointless?

    There I have a song:

    2.Was hilfet uns die schweren Sorgen
    Was hilfet unser Weh und Ach?
    Was hilft es dass wir jeden Mogen
    Beseufzenn unser Ungemach?
    Es machet unser Kreuz und Leid
    Nur grøsser bei der Traurigkeit

    SANN!

    That is Georg Neumark 1642 “Wer nur den lieben Gott lasst walten..”

    Comes on Youtube. The Mozart Choir in Berlin is best on it.

  209. I seriously doubt Al Gore would be able to stomach reading any thread on WUWT, let alone replying. If he did it might be something like this…

    1. Global warming is a fact. Period.
    2. Man-made CO2 is the cause. Period.
    3. It is much worse than we thought. Period.
    4. Drastic measures are called for. Period.
    5. Even if we are wrong, it is the right thing to do. Period.
    6. Contrary opinions will not be tolerated. Period.

  210. Diggio says:

    Global warming and just the United States is causing problems for the whole world. We need to pay for the sun the moon and the stars. Everything happening in the universe is caused by the United States because we use 100% of all the earths resources. George W. Bush did all of this. Right.

  211. wendy says:

    Has anyone thought that this is how it suppose to be,rite now in this time frame,maybe the world is getting ready for a really big dry spell.

  212. LWJR says:

    Al “jazeera” Gore ice sculpture now covered up in back yard.

  213. OhGetReal says:

    This is the beginning of the cooling cycle…The next Ice Age has begun……Good luck…Hope to see you in the next warming, about 11,000 yrs from now.

  214. Janice Moore says:

    Dear Mr. or Ms. McKolberg o’ Odinsey (a.k.a. Carbomontanus),

    Thank you for your intriguing reply. Lol, if I want it to rain, I just wash and wax the car.
    #(:))

    We are waaaay off topic, now, so I’ll close by wishing you well and with this friendly reminder: NONE of the IPCC’s projections have (nor likely will ever) come true. (See Bob Tisdale’s excellent e book: Climate Models Fail)

    Happy singing,

    Janice

  215. Linda Goodman says:

    Please forgive my ignorance, but could the triple meltdowns in Japan be affecting the weather via the radioactive isotopes streaming into the atmosphere for the last 3 years?

  216. Bob says:

    But, but, but the New York Times has told us we are seeing the end of snow!

  217. Barbara Skolaut says:

    We’re freezing our asses off here in Virginia. These clowns promised me gerbil worming. WHERE THE HELL’S MY GERBIL WORMING?</B.

  218. Janice Moore says:

    Carbomontanus, after all the misunderstanding of the past week, you have shared a most beautiful thing which I shall post here:

    “If thou but suffer God to guide thee and hope in Him… .”

    I often sing this soli at the piano. It is comforting.

    Thank you, my zany Swedish friend, you’ve turned out to be okay (I think!).

    #(:))

  219. RACookPE1978 says:

    Linda Goodman says:
    February 8, 2014 at 4:53 pm

    Please forgive my ignorance, but could the triple meltdowns in Japan be affecting the weather via the radioactive isotopes streaming into the atmosphere for the last 3 years?

    No, that is not possible.

  220. Pamela Gray says:

    John, unfortunately, we had an extensive double-event freezing temperature stationary inversion following an extensive no-precip ultra-dry cold month before the snow came. The little darlings were frozen solid below the soil before the snow came. In fact the snow event has warmed things up!

  221. Pamela Gray says:

    ren, you know better than to link to a pictorial depiction of a dipole and then say the cause of such an event is the Sun.

  222. Jeff says:

    Too bad Obamacare didn’t get such a clear indication that the business model was wrong :) Then even if you were a moron, or possibly even a Democratic pol, you might have a chance to redeem yourself before you looked so stupid.

  223. Gail Combs says:

    oracle2world says:
    February 7, 2014 at 8:01 pm

    Snow tires? WTF? How about chains too?
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I bought chains for all four tires of my PkUp and I live in mid NC…. Maybe that is why we are getting our second snow [storm] of the year mid week. (we normally see snow once every five years or so.)

  224. Gail Combs says:

    Leon Brozyna says: @ February 8, 2014 at 1:15 am

    Paraphrasing a sign seen outside a local church last month … Whoever’s been praying for snow — please stop … we have enough.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    That would have been me.

    At Christmas I wished all the Warmists a cold snowy new year. (Sorry guys)

  225. Andre Setton says:

    I think the science is settled: global cooling is here.

  226. Werner Brozek says:

    Janice Moore says:
    February 8, 2014 at 4:57 pm

    Thank you for that! I enjoyed several songs here and I will listen to more in the future! Understanding German helps.

  227. Gail Combs says:

    Carbomontanus says: @ February 8, 2014 at 11:55 am
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The little Ice Age was 1350 to 1850 or there abouts. Colder can mean drier or at least a shift in the rainfall patterns.

    Research into the mystery of the disappearance of the Anasazi shows a “Great drought” in the late 13th century may have caused an entire population to abandon the settlements. “… Some climatological evidence, based on tree-ring and pollen studies, suggests that Anasazi farmers may have been kept from moving to higher, moister grounds by a worldwide cooling trend called the Little Age Ice. According to this theory, the Anasazi were squeezed from two directions: lower elevations were too dry for farming, higher ones too cold….”

    A warmer world is a wetter world.

  228. Subscription Box Girl says:

    I am so over the snow. Bring on the spring

  229. Gail Combs says:

    Linda Goodman says: @ February 8, 2014 at 4:53 pm

    Please forgive my ignorance, but could the triple meltdowns in Japan be affecting the weather via the radioactive isotopes…
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    No.

    If you want the straight story do not listen to the hysterical News Media that wants to sell papers not report the news accurately.

    This is my source: World Nuclear Association Fukushima: Radiation Exposure (updated June 2013)

  230. Gail Combs says:

    Pamela Gray says: @ February 8, 2014 at 5:03 pm

    ren, you know better than to link to a pictorial depiction of a dipole and then say the cause of such an event is the Sun.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Is this better Pam?
    http://www.ccpo.odu.edu/~lizsmith/SEES/ozone/class/Chap_6/6_3.htm

    This one has the usual political correct crap thrown in but there is some decent information among the dross.
    http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2000/ast02oct_1/

    (I leave it at two links so my comment doesn’t get booted into a snow drift.)

  231. Janice Moore says:

    Well, Herr Brozek, what a pleasant surprise to hear that ANY-one enjoyed that (beside myself and Carbo).

    Bitte, und Danke Shön for telling me!

    Here is a little something compliments of me and Ludwig von Beethoven:
    (The second one is the Deutsche one)
    (link is to Virtual Advent Calendar Door #12 on Josh 2014 calendar thread)

    “Ode to Joy” — 1) Beaker 2) Straight
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/11/30/the-josh-wuwt-2014-climate-skeptics-calendar-is-now-available/#comment-1498408
    #(:))

    Yes, indeed, it must be wonderful to understand German. I know only a handful of words.

    Güten Abend, Herr Brozek, und Güte Nacht.

    ********************************************************

    @ R. A. Cook — a Medal for Outstanding Valor goes to you, Sir, for that precisely accurate answer and even more for ALL THE THINGS YOU COULD HAVE SAID but didn’t. Wow. So much ignorance, so little time… . Your self-restraint was above-and-beyond. Well done!

  232. Janice Moore says:

    And GAIL COMBS just saw your excellent response refuting the nuclear power nonsense above. Good job (as usual)!

  233. Piquerish says:

    Perhaps we may borrow Michael Mann’s irrefutable hockey sticks and then rub them vigorously together while chanting, “Global cooling! Global warming! Climate change!” until the sticks combust at least as hot the Chicken Little fraud that it all is.

  234. Ed Mertin says:

    ” Blast you lying LIBS! ” up thread.
    They are proud Republicans, but unaware the party was founded by Liberals. (Look it up)
    They believe in dark conspiracies, but are oblivious to the fact they are pawns in a game.

  235. PoliTecs says:

    Wow, look at all that global warming!

  236. dbstealey says:

    Ed Mertin,

    Actually it is you who obviously believes in dark conspiracies.

    IANAR, but I know a wacko when I see one. <—[lookin' at YOU, Ed. ☺]

  237. Ed Mertin says:

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/10/27/weekend-open-thread-3/

    Brendan H says:
    October 28, 2012 at 3:03 am
    Vigilantfish: ‘I haven’t seen Smokey lately…I hope he’s o.k.’

    Sadly, Smokey was never really OK, but that was part of his charm.

    I’d heard he succumbed to heat exhaustion on one of his philanthropic quests to the third world.

  238. Janice Moore says:

    Well, Ed Mertin, I see that, in spite of it all, he got the medicine through to your village. Too bad it wasn’t in time to prevent brain damage.

  239. Werner Brozek says:

    Janice Moore says:
    February 8, 2014 at 7:40 pm

    Vielen dank. Das war sehr schön!

  240. Hey guys, laugh all you want, but here in central Florida we have yet to receive snow this year. In fact we haven’t received snow since I was born. Gore was right!

  241. Adam says:

    Those images are not supported by our climate models. There must be something wrong with the images. Please use photoshop to make them less snowy and then try to figure out why there is snow in the images when the models said “kids will never see snow again” [/sarc].

  242. Panda says:

    My latest cartoon, number 21, is about the cold weather:
    http://www.itsnotclimatescience.com/index.html

  243. Pamela Gray said:

    “Observation will not prove anything. Observation has to do with the phenomenon being observed, such as a meandering jet stream, not the cause. The cause is an active process with little to do with observation.”

    Observation of multiple phenomena and the way they interact over time is the best way to narrow down the options regarding causation.

    It is well known that a cooler stratosphere raises tropopause height and that a warmer stratosphere lowers it. That is a matter of basic physics and is not mere correlation.

    Likewise it is well known that more ozone warms the stratosphere and less ozone cools it. That is a matter of basic physics and not mere correlation.

    All one then needs to observe in order to establish a chain of causation involving tropopause height is the actual real world ozone response at different levels in the atmosphere as a result of solar variability.

    As I pointed out, the actual real world finding is that from 2004 to 2007 ozone above 45km increased at a time of active sun which is the reverse of expectation.

    It isn’t going to take much longer for the bricks to fall into place since the number of papers currently dealing with this very subject is fast increasing as the new data comes in.

  244. But the NY Times just published on article this past week on the end of snow. It appears that my lying eyes have deceived me again. Please raise my taxes and take away some of my freedoms.
    signed,
    A Democrat

  245. Sorry, should have said inactive sun, not active sun.

  246. Hi Folks, I haven’t got any fancy Degrees or anything but a little scientific knowledge now it occurs to me that the earth has been around a couple of billion years and during that time a lot of Temperature change has taken place. At one time the Earth was covered in molten Lava and the temp was extremely high in the 2000 degree range and that lasted until the cooling occurred and the animals started appearing and the air had 2 to 3 times as much Oxygen in it and the temperature was about 7 to 10 degrees warmer than it has been in the Past Million years as the fossil record shows the next thing to occur was an Ice age and the Dinosaurs disappeared and the giant mammals appeared. The temps were -30 to -40 degrees cooler than the recent Period would show. Statistics tell me there has been no change in the temperature of the earth in the last 20 years because that sample is far to small to have any real meaning even if you take the entire time man has been able to measure temperature and put it on a graph of Geological time the sample would be statistically insignificant, Humans as a whole in Geophysical time have barely been around a good tick of the Geophysical clock for a non scientist or even a scientist to think that they can say for certainty that something is happening based on the data collected over less than a million years is absolutely absurd.
    . Look to the Dollars, Look to who has the most to gain by regulating the lives of the people; do not be fooled by those who claim to be smart they are looking to make money I have no way of making money by what I am saying I just don’t want my money stolen by those who only want to line their own pockets by stealing from me.

    Look at what Douglas Adams wrote about Life, Life Statistically does not exist in the universe because it is so unimaginably rare that it’s occurrence is Statistically zero.

  247. Sal says:

    It is interesting that with the Great Lakes at record icing and the country covered with snow pack, The NY Times continues to write about the great Global Warming. No wonder their readership and profits are tanking. I guess their views are religion and the religious ones are hard to dissuade.

  248. Carbomontanus says:

    @ Stephen Wilde

    Yes thank you. Then In have no more problems with your argument.

    Ozone detonates if compressed any higher than 0.12 bar regardless of temperature and gas mixture, and Delta H is allmost as high as for 2H2 + O2.

    It eats rubber and cork. NO and SO2 must be kept strictly away. A lot of oxidation that only occurs at higher temperatures are easily carried out with ozone.

    What hardens polyunsaturated lipid oil paints very much better. is a clear day outdoor in Mars regardless of temperature.

    From this I could deduce what I need to know about ozone.

  249. PoliTecs says:

    LOL! Yes, Gore was right, you CAN fool the idiots all of the time and make BILLIONS off it!

  250. Fred says:

    It is absolutely amazing that almost none of you know the difference between climate and weather. It’s called “GLOBAL” warming not American weather. Take a look and see what is going on in the world, not just outside your window. It is rather obvious as to why America is rated 23rd in the world in science literacy. Try getting your facts from scientists and not politicians.

  251. Elliot says:

    I just have to say, the weather news are acquiring an “Action TV” feel this winter.

  252. AlGoreIsFatStupidIdiot says:

    You mean its natural solar cycles and not witchcraft?
    Wheres ManBearPig to scare everybody into giving him $5?

  253. richardscourtney says:

    Fred:

    Your post at February 9, 2014 at 8:22 am says in total

    It is absolutely amazing that almost none of you know the difference between climate and weather. It’s called “GLOBAL” warming not American weather. Take a look and see what is going on in the world, not just outside your window. It is rather obvious as to why America is rated 23rd in the world in science literacy. Try getting your facts from scientists and not politicians.

    I do know “the difference between climate and weather”, and when I look out the window here in the UK I see rain.

    Importantly, “GLOBAL” warming stopped at least 17 years ago.

    Try getting your facts from scientists and not alarmists.

    Richard

  254. “Words have meaning and names have power.” Anon

    It is distressing to see on a forum devoted to science the improper use of certain words. At least twice in this thread we see a statement like this: “With the current lack of warming we may be going into another ice age.” This presupposes that we are not at present in an ice age. Which is not correct. The earth has been in an ice age for about 2.6 million years. We are lucky enough to be living in an Interglacial Warm Period. We may be slipping into another Glacial Period, or not. It is all part of the same ice age. Why is this important? By directing attention away from the larger climate picture and focusing on a very limited recent time span climate scientist hope to further their “cause”. The ice age is the elephant in the room they desperately want to ignore and conceal. We know what happens when the earth warms up enough to shift from Ice House to Greenhouse conditions. It is not to be feared; it is not a total disaster. In fact, it is normal and to be preferred as more beneficial to life. Summer is a reminder of Greenhouse Earth; winter is a reminder that we are in an ice age.

    ["... it is "normal" (or "abnormal"?) and to be accepted ..." Mod]

  255. Amatør1 says:

    Janice Moore says:
    February 8, 2014 at 12:32 pm

    Carbomontanus is a well know warmist troll over here. I know who he is and I’ve seen him in person. The real life version is even more peculiar.

  256. Gunga Din says:

    richardscourtney says:
    February 9, 2014 at 10:05 am

    Fred:….

    ==========================================================
    8-) I was about to say something similar when I saw Richard’s response.
    (Oh, and Fred, he’s a Brit, not an American. But what you said here, “ It is rather obvious as to why America is rated 23rd in the world in science literacy.“, might have something to do with why anybody believed Al Gore to begin with.)

  257. Pamela Gray says:

    Gail, your link is right on the money. Stephen should study it.

  258. Pamela Gray says:

    Fred, too funny. If you live on either side of the cold invasion, you are quite warm (what loops down, loops up). And yes, it is weather right now, and quite extreme. What you fail to understand is how weather can become weather patterns which can exist in short term as well as longer term spans of time, setting up weather pattern variations which will demonstrate an average trend up, flat, down, or noisy. The longer term weather pattern variation trends are popularly known as climate change. Cha ching!

  259. Pamela,

    Which portion of Gail’s extensive and broad ranging link should I (and readers) pay attention to ?

    I am well aware of the Brewer-Dobson circulation which fits well enough into my hypothesis in that it can slow down or speed up as necessary to exert a negative system response to any internal system forcing element.

    Just directing readers to a mass of information without specifying its relevance would seem to me to be a diversionary strategy.

  260. Pamela Gray says:

    Stephen, I take the time to study such involved things. You should too. There is no quick learning here. But I will point out one specific area among many. I have referred readers to bottom-up versus top down influence on stratospheric changes (thus tropospheric thus weather pattern changes) before. Rossby waves are a bottom-up invasion into the stratosphere. Something I know you are well aware of. Yet you nearly exclusively deny such bottom-up invasions into the stratosphere which can then form a top-down driver back into the troposphere. You place solar changes at the top of the list of stratospheric drivers of tropospheric changes without refuting this intrinsic source as being the primary driver. Do you not?

  261. Pamela Gray said:

    “The longer term weather pattern variation trends are popularly known as climate change. Cha ching!”

    Quite so.

    Solar variations (via wavelength and particle variations rather than TSI) cause changes in weather pattern variation trends (shifting jets and climate zones) which we perceive as climate change ( ker-ching!)

    Glad to see you agree with me after all : )

    If you believe that our CO2 emissions have a significant effect compared to that of solar and oceanic variability then please do share your evidence.

  262. Pamela Gray says:

    I will link this very well done study here. I have already done so on another thread. I find the conclusions very interesting as well as the need for further research into completing our basic understanding of the polar vortex. Yet there are those here who want to jump over that wide span of incomplete knowledge of the thing itself and head for the Sun as the driver. Reminds me of once again, the witch doctor who had a very incomplete understanding of the thing itself yet seemed all to eager to tell us what caused it.

    In my opinion we MUST complete our knowledge and understanding of INTRINSIC weather pattern drivers before shoving a finger elsewhere at other drivers. Whether that be us, the Earth, or something outside our highly variable globe. I prefer to examine intrinsic drivers (which have not been extensively studied yet) before I look at other possible drivers and I will continue to encourage others to do the same. And it is my opinion that those who look elsewhere have need of further study in intrinsic drivers.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/joc.1204/pdf

  263. Pamela Gray says:
    February 9, 2014 at 11:29 am

    A sensible comment deserves a sensible response so:

    i) I do not deny bottom up invasions of the stratosphere.

    ii) I do not deny that bottom up invasions of the stratosphere can affect the solar induced top down effect.

    iii) I am on record as asserting that the climate response at any given moment ( via the latitudinal position of the climate zones and jets) is a consequence of the net balance between the top down solar and bottom up oceanic influences.

    iv) Thus I say that the top down solar effect on stratosphere temperatures can indeed be modulated by the bottom up effect from the oceans which must include the Rossby wave effects that you have noted.

    The thing is that I distinguish between the bottom up Rossby wave effects which give rise to sudden stratospheric warming events and the top down, long term solar effects across a millennium or so.

    Those bottom up effects occur all the time but beneath and behind them lies the top down solar effect which influences the frequency and intensity of sudden stratospheric warming events across decades, centuries and millennia.

    Indeed I have often referred to those SSW events because they do lead to more meridional / equatorward jets giving cooling middle latitudes.

    In exactly the same way it requires a warming of the stratosphere towards the poles to produce the more meridional / equatorward jets and climate zones that we observed during the Little Ice Age.

    Do you not see the similarity between the ‘weather’ of short term SSW events and the ‘climate’ of solar induced long term changes in the frequency and intensity of such SSW events ?

  264. Pamela Gray says:

    Stephen, I am of the opinion that solar enthusiasts and CO2 enthusiasts have the same degree of knowledge regarding knowledge and understanding of intrinsic drivers of weather pattern variation trends, with CO2 scientists maybe slightly ahead of solar enthusiasts. Neither camp have followed proper refutation of intrinsic drivers of the recent warming trend.

  265. Pamela Gray says:

    An idea for you Stephen, the link I provided above has very good data in it. As does the link I have included elsewhere authored by the master’s candidate. Use that data and see if there is a link with your solar parameters. Don’t eyeball it. Use standard tests of significance. As they have done. Note: you and they are limited by the short data span so your tests of significance must be set at a very high level else you find spurious significance and tout it as evidence.

  266. Pamela.

    Both solar and CO2 enthusiasts may well be working from the same body of knowledge.

    I think I am ahead of both in placing the primary influence on solar variability (top down) as modulated by oceanic variability (bottom up) leaving the effects of human CO2 emissions nowhere in comparison.

    The late 20th century warming trend (now deceased) showed poleward / zonal jets, reduced global cloudiness, increased ocean heat content, cooling of the stratosphere and warming of the middle latitudes at a time of active sun.

    Now we see a less active sun, stabilising if not reducing ocean heat content, increased global cloudiness as per the Earthshine project, equatorward / meridional jets and a cessation of the warming trend in the troposphere and a cessation of the cooling trend in the stratosphere whilst the middle latitudes become cooler.

    Everything has gone into reverse since around 2000 as the sun became less active.

    What more evidence do you need ?

  267. Pamela Gray says:

    Again, Stephen you rely on observation as the beginning and end of your thesis. Low level discourse at best. And you fail to refute intrinsic drivers. Granted that is more advanced in terms of classic scientific investigation, but you still fail to even link to the many pieces of research on intrinsic drivers.

  268. Pamela,

    What do your ‘intrinsic drivers ‘ suggest ?

    What are your ‘intrinsic drivers’ beyond sun and oceans ?

    GHGs could be regarded as ‘ intrinsic drivers’ but how far would our emissions shift the jets and climate zones as compared to solar and oceanic variability ?

    Do you have any idea ?

    If I am ‘more advanced in terms of classic scientific investigation’ then how do you come to the conclusion that my thesis is low level discourse at best ?

    I want the correct diagnosis, do you ?

  269. Pamela Gray says:

    Stephen
    You ask: What do your ‘intrinsic drivers ‘ suggest ?
    1. Intrinsic oceanic/atmospheric teleconnections appear quite able to drive natural weather pattern trends in short and long term time spans and clearly vary the amount of solar incoming energy to a far greater degree than solar variation itself does. There is both intrinsic plausible mechanism and correlation in weather pattern trends.

    You ask: What are your ‘intrinsic drivers’ beyond sun and oceans ?
    2. Intrinsic drivers are a combination of Earths rotation and geography combined with oceanic/atmospheric teleconnections. Not to mention the atmospheric soupy chaotic movement akin to those you find in fluid dynamic theory. Besides, it is accepted theory, even doctrinal, that oceanic/atmospheric teleconnections are far more powerful in driving measurable temperature anomaly trend than the Sun is. At best solar driven changes to measured temperature are calculable but not detectable in weather noise averages be they anomaly or actual temperatures.

    You state: GHGs could be regarded as ‘ intrinsic drivers’
    3. Anthropogenic CO2 is not generally considered to be intrinsic to Earth. Intrinsic parameters are those in nature, including natural CO2.

    and ask: but how far would our emissions shift the jets and climate zones as compared to solar and oceanic variability ? Do you have any idea?
    4. When looking at the energy available from LW oceanic heating due to the anthropogenic portion of CO2, I do not find sufficient evidence in the literature that demonstrates sufficient energy necessary to drive the recent barely decades long warming trend much less the Jets. I also do not find evidence of sufficient solar energy to do that.

    You ask: If I am ‘more advanced in terms of classic scientific investigation’ then how do you come to the conclusion that my thesis is low level discourse at best ?
    5. I certainly did not say you are more advanced. I said that refuting the null hypothesis by finding robust fault with it is advanced scientific investigation, a level I find you wanting in.

    You ask: I want the correct diagnosis, do you ?
    6. I want those who propose alternate theories to use standard scientific discovery methods. You do not use those methods.

  270. James says:

    [snip - per WUWT policy, 'Chemtrail' comments not allowed here -mod]

  271. Pamela,

    1) Do you realise that solar effects on internal system features such as ozone amounts at different heights above the tropopause can affect the proportion of solar radiation that can enter the oceans by changing global cloudiness via air circulation changes ?
    I’m not sure that you appreciate the implications of that.

    2) I agree with all those factors as modulating influences but what if solar effects on ozone outweigh all of them by altering the proportion of solar energy able to enter the oceans in the first place ?

    3) I referred to GHGs generally and not just anthropogenic GHGs..I simply think that GHGs whether anthopogenic or not make little difference to the global air circulation compared to the contribution from solar and oceanic variability.

    4) You have to look at he the cloudiness changes that result from solar variations. Those changes are out of proportion to changes in raw TSI and would seem to be sufficient to account for observations as per previous threads on this site and elsewhere.

    5) You can adjust the intended meaning of your words if you wish but they remain in place. The null hypothesis is that all observed changes are natural and my hypothesis seems to be in line with that.

    6) Scientific methods appear to have been somewhat lacking of late. In any event my hypothesis refers clearly to the findings of others and places them within a physically plausible scenario. That is good enough if it leads to any degree of predictive skill and indeed it is doing so. My hypothesis anticipated a reverse sign solar effect on ozone amounts before reports of increasing ozone at a time of quiet sun came in for the 2004 / 2007 period above 45km. I also anticipated a continuing negative AO and AAO, more meridional jets, more global cloudiness and a return to dominant La Nina over El Nino.
    What ‘better’ and more ‘scientific’ methods do you propose ?

  272. Pamela Gray says:

    Refuting the null hypothesis is a long ordeal and you have not even started. That is also true of those who believe in the ozone hypothesis related to solar mediated cloud coverage. The oceans are far more capable of creating cloud cover and the equatorial trade wind is far more capable of removing that cloud cover than anything ozone can do. Stephen, in every instance you reference completely UNSUBSTANTIATED conjecture! Very unscientific. You are proving my case without me.

    I have visited your site and you do an extremely poor job of refuting all the intrinsic parameters that are accepted causes of weather pattern variations. That you claim otherwise proves the real old adage, “we are our own BEST critics”.

  273. Pamela.

    You are entitled to your opinion.

    In the meantime if you come across any real real world data that goes contrary to my hypothesis over a long time scale do please let me know.

    I don’t think that I need to ‘refute all the intrinsic parameters that are accepted causes of weather pattern variations’ because they are all subsumed into my general overview.

    Nor is my ‘conjecture’ ‘unsubstantiated’ because it fits both observations and basic physical principles.

    Best wishes.

  274. Pamela Gray said:

    “The oceans are far more capable of creating cloud cover and the equatorial trade wind is far more capable of removing that cloud cover than anything ozone can do”

    The oceans do indeed play their part as per my own ‘Hot Water Bottle Effect’ but the oceans respond to the air flows above them and if the sun affects the global air circulation from above by affecting the gradient of tropopause height between equator and poles as I propose then all the oceans can do is modulate the solar effect rather than drive anything themselves.

    I would say that the sun proposes but the ocean disposes.

  275. milodonharlani says:

    Robert Bissett says:
    February 9, 2014 at 10:38 am

    Earth has been in Icehouse mode for about 38 million years, ever since Antarctica was isolated from South America & Australia by deep ocean channels. Ice sheets have been a permanent feature of our planet since then. The climate got even worse when North & South America joined at the Isthmus of Panama, about 3 Ma, producing the waxing & waning but mostly waxing Northern Hemisphere glaciations you cite.

    Warmunistas try to blame CO2 for the Cenozoic ice age, fingering the weathering Himalayas, but the lame excuse doesn’t wash, so to speak. CO2 decrease is caused by cooling climate, not the main driver of it & ditto for its fluctuations during warmer interglacials, such as now

  276. Pamela Gray says:

    Stephen, you seem to think that ozone changes caused by solar UV changes precede height changes in various atmospheric layers over the Arctic pole. I think you have cause and effect reversed.

    http://airs.jpl.nasa.gov/maps/satellite_feed/ozone/ozone.html

  277. Pamela Gray says:

    Stephen, while some of these papers rely on models and many are infused with global warming hype, the underlying physics related to our discussion is applicable. I thought you might appreciate some of these papers as they might add information to your understanding.

    http://agwobserver.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/papers-on-tropopause-height/

  278. Linda Goodman says:

    Linda Goodman says: @ February 8, 2014 at 4:53 pm
    …could the triple meltdowns in Japan be affecting the weather via the radioactive isotopes…
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Gail Combs says: @ February 8, 2014 at 7:31 pm
    No. If you want the straight story do not listen to the hysterical News Media that wants to sell papers not report the news accurately.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Actually, the news media says very little about the meltdowns – almost all of it reassuring, I don’t need a lesson on their motives and I have no use for hysteria, or insulting assumptions.

    When the accidents first occurred in Mar 2011, there were freak radioactive snowstorms nearby, including CA & HI and on the US navy ship off Japan’s shore that severely poisoned dozens of servicemen and women. What is the science behind that, and might it explain the current frigid weather? btw, the ‘worst snowstorm in decades’ hit Japan today.. “Approximately 13.8 inches of snow was dumped on the northeastern city of Sendai…. the heaviest snowfall in 78 years. Fukushima was also blanketed in 17.3 inches of snow.”

  279. Pamela Gray says:

    Linda, the loopy jet stream fully explains the frigid extreme weather. It happens from time to time. Nothing to worry about. This link might help:

    http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/nrd/docs/dlongrange.ppt

  280. Janice Moore says:

    Dear Ms. Goodman,

    There is natural radiation around us {for instance, a granite kitchen counter top} all of the time and has always been there since the birth of the earth . Source: Physicist: There Was No Fukushima Nuclear Disaster, Kelvin Kemm, 10/12/13.
    Link: http://www.cfact.org/2013/10/12/physicist-there-was-no-fukushima-nuclear-disaster/

    A selection from the above source:

    Total number of people killed by nuclear radiation at Fukushima was zero. Total injured by radiation was zero. Total private property damaged by radiation….zero. There was no nuclear disaster. ***
    Recently some water leaked out of the Fukushima plant. It contained a very small amount of radioactive dust. The news media quoted the radiation activity in the physics measure of miliSieverts. The public don’t know what a Sievert or a milliSievert is. As it happens a milliSievert is a very small measure. *** Doubling a very small amount is still inconsequential. It is like saying: “Yesterday there was a matchstick on the football field; today there are two matchsticks on the football field. Matchstick pollution has increased by a massive 100% in only 24 hours.” ***

    All that is left is a bit of radioactive Tritium. Tritium is actually part of the water molecule anyway *** The Tritium heavy water is very mildly radioactive and is found normally in the sea all over the world all of the time. This Tritium concentration in the one thousand storage tanks at Fukushima is higher than that found naturally in the sea, but is still so low as to pose no real danger at all. ***

    Id. {emphasis mine}

    Further, as post hoc, ergo propter hoc is all that you are floating your speculation on so far, your ideas above just sank. Until you rest your case upon facts and evidence, every one of your comments will just… blub….blub…. blub…….. sink to the bottom.

    Cite your evidence and your sources, and you will greatly increase your chances of getting a thoughtful response here. If the quality of your evidence is poor, the response may be quite curt.

    So far, you appear to be merely a wild-eyed hand waver. I’m not saying that you ARE one, just that by your failing to cite evidence, you do yourself the disservice of making yourself APPEAR to be one.

    If your pursuit of truth is genuine, I wish you much success in your investigation of the facts!

    If you are emotionally and irrationally simply against nuclear power per se, I hope that, someday, you can bring yourself to step back from that ledge and take a calm look at the facts. Once your eyes are able to focus, gazing through unglazed lenses of objectivity, you will like what you see!

    Best wishes,

    Janice

    P.S. Re: my referring to you above as ignorant — That is, per se, nothing of which to be ashamed and is not a put down. It is simply a fact (albeit stated a bit bluntly). In case this will encourage you, I’ll tell you that, compared to the majority of the commenters on this site, I am highly ignorant of physics, nuclear power engineering, chemistry, and math (among many other subjects!). This is a great place to LEARN!

  281. Janice Moore says:

    @ Werner Brozek — Du bist willkommen! Es war mir ein Vergnügen.

    (yes, I most certainly DID have to use a translator, lol)

    [For the rest of us minions, that was "You are welcome! It was my pleasure." 8<) Mod]

  282. Janice Moore says:

    Well, Hellooooooo Mod! Thanks for that. lol, and, waddaya know, that’s exactly what I typed into that translator.
    #(:))

  283. Janice Moore says:

    Well, Pamela Gray, while your comments were directed at S. Wilde, they were helpful to me, so, I say, “Thank you for your persistence in explaining.”

    I think wherever Wilde is, it must be quite late in the evening. I just want to jump in before he returns to say that he is blessed to have been given so much of your helpful tutoring. He should hire you to be his mentor to write up his dissertation!

    Hm. Somehow, I don’t think he is interested in doing that… .

    Sending you admiration and respect from far to the northwest of you,

    Janice

  284. Linda Goodman says:

    Janice Moore commented:
    So far, you appear to be merely a wild-eyed hand waver. I’m not saying that you ARE one, just that by your failing to cite evidence, you do yourself the disservice of making yourself APPEAR to be one.
    If you are emotionally and irrationally simply against nuclear power per se, I hope that, someday, you can bring yourself to step back from that ledge and take a calm look at the facts. Once your eyes are able to focus, gazing through unglazed lenses of objectivity, you will like what you see!
    >>>>>>>>>>
    Eyes focused, here’s what I see.. Lethal nuclear waste continues to accumulate, poisoning the earth and all living things for countless ages, darkening our collective future, maybe even destroying it. Nuclear power puts extinction in our reach: “I am become death, destroyer of worlds.” If reincarnation is a fact, nuke profiteers will be among the unfortunate who stumble on the waste in one, ten, a hundred thousand years, dying slowly and horribly without a clue, over and over again. Karmic justice.. assuming there’s still a world worth being reborn into.

    Most reactors have the increasingly likely potential to kill and maim millions, leaking demons that sit among us, poisoning our children and saving the worst for last, and for what? Boiled water and bombs. So with all due respect, I think the support of nuclear energy at best lacks any common sense, at worst is nihilistic and pathological. Some nuke supporters also claim CO2 is deadly and produce all the baffling bull to back up that absurd claim, too. They’re a special kind of crazy, imho.

  285. Pamela.

    What part of your link indicates that tropopause height changes always precede ozone changes.

    My position is that anything which affects stratosphere temperatures will also affect tropopause height.

    If one has both top down and bottom up effects as I contend then both processes can occur not just one or the other.

    There would be no tropopause if ozone had not been formed first so your attempt at downplaying the effect of stratospheric ozone on tropopause height is doomed.

  286. daddylonglegs says:

    Tokyo’s heaviest snow in decades seems to be bringing out some nuclear common sense, they just voted in a new governor who promises to restart the city’s nuclear power stations:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26103296

    Maybe brains, like silicon chips, work better when its cold. In Japan at least, it would be good if the same happened in the USA.

  287. daddylonglegs says:

    Linda Goodman says:
    February 9, 2014 at 11:14 pm

    Eyes focused, here’s what I see.. Lethal nuclear waste continues to accumulate, poisoning the earth and all living things for countless ages, darkening our collective future, maybe even destroying it.

    Both a coal fired power station and your average hospital discharge more radioactivity in a week than a nuclear power station.

    Nuclear power puts extinction in our reach: “I am become death, destroyer of worlds.” If reincarnation is a fact, nuke profiteers will be among the unfortunate who stumble on the waste in one, ten, a hundred thousand years, dying slowly and horribly without a clue, over and over again. Karmic justice.. assuming there’s still a world worth being reborn into.

    No you are become Cornholio, this is the most entertaining insane rant all week. (That’s a lot of rants.) We live in a radioactive world whose radioactivity has been declining over its 4 billion year history. Life evolved and flourished in a sea of ionizing particles. Life is self-assembling entropy-exporting order out of chaos which is constantly repairing itself. Every DNA strand breaks every few minutes but is continually repaired, this is not from radioactivity but just quantum chaos, radioactivity has to reach very high levels before it makes a significant difference to this. Such morbid fear of radioactivity is exactly as irrational as medieval fear of demons and witchcraft behind every miscarriage or crop failure. The popular fear of things nuclear and radioactivity is pure superstition in defiance of a large literature that shows that both animals and plants receive beneficial, not harmful effects from doses of radiation in the tens or even hundreds of milligrays. Ionizing radiation, like any other toxin, becomes harmful only above a threshold which is way above all but the most catastrophic nuclear discharges.

    Most reactors have the increasingly likely potential to kill and maim millions, leaking demons that sit among us, poisoning our children and saving the worst for last, and for what? Boiled water and bombs. So with all due respect, I think the support of nuclear energy at best lacks any common sense, at worst is nihilistic and pathological. Some nuke supporters also claim CO2 is deadly and produce all the baffling bull to back up that absurd claim, too. They’re a special kind of crazy, imho.

    So the only logical thing for you to do it put on your anti-nuclear missionary pith-helmet and try to evangelise a nation like France who have lived for more than a generation receiving 70-80% of their electricity from nuclear power – and this is old generation PWR’s, much less “safe” intrinsically than the latest generation of reactors. Are you the chosen one to tell them of their nuclear damnation and need for US-liberal repentance? Good luck with that. Are 50 million French folks being killed and mained every day but somehow just don’t notice? Are their children being likewise silently poisoned? Including the ones living to their 90′s? Get help Linda.

  288. Carbomontanus says:

    @ Stephen Wilde

    I am following your argument with increasing and positive interest because I have speculated in the area for myself.

    I have derived my very understanding of the climate dispute from the tropopause and the fact of global cooling rather than global warming, the tropopause being the cool side of the globe with allmost incredibly low temperatures worldwide and right towards the sunstitch also.

    Care to give that fact the right physical explaination first, before you enter and interfere in the climate dispute.

    The tropopause is what is denied and hidden by the climate surrealists, but the tropopause is the economic commercial levels and fields of the worlds fleet of long distance civil jetliner traffic.

    Discovered by balloon in 1905 where they fainted even with oxygen masks going higher up, they woke up again lower down as their balloon ran out of gas, and could publish this to humanity. (The discovery of the stratosphere)

    The worlds fleet of weather balloons have reported that fact ever since simply by carrying a barometer, a termometer, a radio transmitter, and a proper Radar reflector, the knick of the lapsrate and the quite phaenomenal low temperatures there, the very fameous “isotherm layer”.

    On the Venus transit, good amateur photos showed that Venus also has got a thin gas above its tropopause, that follows Bolzmanns barometric law. But I was told that it is not a “stratosphere”, which is probably bullshit. Only that it has no oxygen. It is nearly pure nitrogen and CO2. The top layer on Venus the shiny white clouds measure …… -40 celsius right in the sunstitch.

    I just tell you this. It must be checked up in order to stick to reality and to science , and I do not think or believe that Oxygen and Ozone and sunstitch = sharp UV on common air does regulate so very much on the tropopause that rather seems to be a CO2- phaenomena.

    The temperature maximun at about 30 Km height, also consequently shown by the weather balloons, is sun and oxygen and ozone- related according to orthodoxy.

    I know a bit of what eats ozone and what makes it, from the side of physical chemistery. Thus I rather discuss photochemical smog and perhaps volcanoes after having dug a bit into it.

    I also discuss Pearl mother clouds and Nocti- lucent clouds that tell us more about the stratosphere physical chemistery and radiology. Those clouds are what we can possibly follow on amateur level and try and give the right physical explaination for first.. Do not be blind to the heavens and do keep proper ground contact.

    We were lucky to have the Eyafjallajøkull high smokes one afternoon showing no pearl mother effect at the same heighth, so I can discuss particle and cristal size. Do not take anything for serious in science unless you have seen it or heard it quite consciously for yourself, because the experts may cheat you.

    Auguste Piccard soon went higher up in a balloon using a light and tight tank for being able to breathe pure oygen at high enough pressure.

    The russian Mig 27 has gone up to 21-22 Km with paying passengers. That plane looses breath and begins to stall at that heighth, and the passengers must wear a pressure- suit.

    I red that the US air force is stalling and loosing breath at 27 Km.

    The record of big balloons is around 40 Km. A man has jumped from there in pressure suit.

    For higher measurements you must shoot ballistic rockets or use indirect radio or optical methods.

    This seems to be reality.

    Thus, Allways keep in touch with what is possible eperiments and measurement.

    I find life quite more exiting when I do that, and it enables me to do it for myself and to beat the big guys now and then on my small scale allready.

    I could beat Henrik Svensmark for instance on CLOUD in CERN, simply by using an iron and HCl & H2O2 & NH3 & H2SO4 & Citric acid & K3Fe(CN)6, + a filter paper + an incandescent lamp & the early morning sunlight & the milky way galaxy in 2011.

    Thus Non fingendum aut excogitandum sed inveniendum quod natura faciat aut ferat,

    = a very good advice from Francis Bacon that I hereby give further..

    .

  289. Jeff says:

    @daddylonglegs says:
    February 10, 2014 at 9:38 am

    Yeah, and just think what their (France) economy would be like with no nukes and energy costs like Germany…the thought of windmills running our (mostly electric) trains makes me want to retch. Time to get Thorium and/or cold fusion going…IIRC Thorium reactors would consume most or all of the waste that Linda is aftraid of…

  290. Janice Moore says:

    @ Daddy Longlegs (9:14am and 9:38am) — LOL. And, also, GREAT facts. As to the Cornholio of the Week Award…. I’m afraid you are right. There were though, (ahem), a couple of really, really, close runners up … .
    #(:))

    WUWT — Truth in Science and…… COMEDY, too!!

    Thank you, dear Cornholios (and Cornholias) of the world, you light up our lives here on WUWT (no, no, no, it is NOT because you have become dangerously radioactive — all that nuclear waste that France has been sending the U.S. for years cannot POSSIBLY get to you or to your grandchildren or to your great-to-the-1000th-generation-grandchildren — yeah, EVEN IF some pesky leprechaun decides to bury his gold there and accidentally hauls some of it back to the surface… by the time he gets back, the radiation level will be so low that it — won’t — matter).

    PLEASE KEEP POSTING! #(:))

  291. Linda Goodman says:

    daddylonglegs commented:

    “this is the most entertaining insane rant all week. (That’s a lot of rants.) We live in a radioactive world whose radioactivity has been declining over its 4 billion year history. Life evolved and flourished in a sea of ionizing particles. Life is self-assembling entropy-exporting order out of chaos which is constantly repairing itself.”

    “France who have lived for more than a generation receiving 70-80% of their electricity from nuclear power … Are you the chosen one to tell them of their nuclear damnation and need for US-liberal repentance? … Get help Linda.”

    >>>>>>>>>>

    spider man: Nature is perfect, Man is reckless. Inhaling, absorbing and ingesting manufactured isotopes is harmful, cumulative and ultimately deadly. There are no ‘safe levels’, only degrees of harm determined by quality, quantity/rate of exposure and genetics.

    And calling nuclear ‘clean energy’ is as much a lie as calling CO2 a toxin. One lie would destroy our health, the other would destroy our freedom. Orwell would blush.

    About France, last week French researchers reported that the incidence of cancer is expected to soar by 90% in developed nations by 2030 – yikes! http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/246061.php Not surprisingly, there’s no mention of the three meltdowns slowly, steadily blanketing much of the world and our food supply in lethal residue. For an invisible killer, denial is a cinch, except when it’s swift and acute, as with the sailors aboard the USS Ronald Reagan.. http://www.turnerradionetwork.com/news/99-pat

    About buried nuclear waste, out of sight, out of mind, pun intended. And I refer again to the hopeful possibility of reincarnation and karmic retribution.

    And I may be over my head in this Lofty Space, but thanks for the smugly amusing insults. I’m oddly flattered.. I should probably get out more.

  292. Janice Moore says:

    Ms. Goodman (applause, applause),

    That was a very fine acceptance speech.

    Janice

  293. richardscourtney says:

    Linda Goodman:

    At February 10, 2014 at 12:55 pm you say

    Nature is perfect

    Really?
    Perfection is an ideal state which cannot be improved.
    Nature changes. It always has and it always will. It is in constant change.

    Nature is different now than it was more than half an hour ago when you wrote your statement.

    So, was nature imperfect when you wrote your statement or now?
    Or, is it your definition of “perfect” constantly changing?

    I would appreciate an explanation of your assertion which seems to make no sense.

    Thanking you in anticipation.

    Richard

  294. Linda Goodman says:

    Correction: re USS Reagan story, wrong link, accurate story.. This one’s legit: http://www.navytimes.com/article/20131228/NEWS08/312280004/Reagan-sailors-press-radiation-lawsuit “It just seems to me that based upon Chernobyl and everything that occurred there … that it should really be a situation where the naysayers have to demonstrate that it did no harm to these people”

  295. Janice Moore says:

    Oooh, Richard (1:47pm today), heh, heh, heh. (smiling and smiling and smiling) Just could not resist, hm? lol

    Have fun!

    Oh, and try talking to Carbo mon Tanus. THAT is super-fun. Except… his attention seems to wander, so, he may not get back to you.

    #(:))

  296. Linda Goodman says:

    richardscourtney says:February 10, 2014 at 1:47 pm
    “Really?
    Perfection is an ideal state which cannot be improved. Nature changes. It always has and it always will. It is in constant change.

    Nature is different now than it was more than half an hour ago when you wrote your statement.

    So, was nature imperfect when you wrote your statement or now? Or, is it your definition of “perfect” constantly changing?

    I would appreciate an explanation of your assertion which seems to make no sense.”

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Cute. Everything changes, of course, change is the only constant. Nature, the Galaxy, the Universe, is a perfect system that self corrects. Nature supplies everything we need.. and most adorably, WE evolved from its earthy womb. Okay, maybe it goofed a little there. How would YOU improve on nature?

  297. richardscourtney says:

    Linda Goodman:

    At February 10, 2014 at 2:28 pm you ask me

    How would YOU improve on nature?

    Assuming I had unlimited resources, I would use what nature has provided to build and to operate

    farms, fishing fleets, factories, cities, shops, schools, colleges, universities, hospitals, medical facilities, power stations (fossil fueled and nuclear), sewerage systems, systems for clean drinking water, roads, railways, aircraft, airports, and electronic communications

    so all human kind could have full bellies, health, wealth and the hope of happiness through a long life.

    That is what I would do.
    What would you do, live a short life in a cave as a hunter gatherer?

    Richard

  298. Linda Goodman says:

    btw, I know I’m a bunny hopping through the fox fields, but it would be interesting to see a direct response to the issues I raised, rather than just gleeful attacks on my presumed lack of knowledge, understanding, intelligence, and my assumed alliance with leprechauns.

  299. richardscourtney says:

    Linda Goodman:

    I am grossly offended by your post at February 10, 2014 at 2:52 pm which says in full

    btw, I know I’m a bunny hopping through the fox fields, but it would be interesting to see a direct response to the issues I raised, rather than just gleeful attacks on my presumed lack of knowledge, understanding, intelligence, and my assumed alliance with leprechauns.

    How dare you!?
    1.
    You made an assertion which made no sense to me rationally, logically, scientifically or theologically so I politely asked you to explain it.
    2.
    You replied that you had made that statement by mistake and you added a question which you put to me.
    3.
    I answered your question and put the same question back to you.
    4.
    You have replied with the assertions I have quoted in this post.

    I said NONE of those things and I have NOT made any “attacks” of you (gleeful or otherwise). You have raised no “issues” but have provided irrational rants and when queried on one of your assertions you replied you did not mean it.

    I am willing to accept your apology.

    Richard

  300. Gunga Din says:

    Linda Goodman says:
    February 10, 2014 at 2:52 pm

    btw, I know I’m a bunny hopping through the fox fields, but it would be interesting to see a direct response to the issues I raised, rather than just gleeful attacks on my presumed lack of knowledge, understanding, intelligence, and my assumed alliance with leprechauns.

    ===============================================================
    If “nature” is perfect, then how can Man mess it up? Is Man not part of your “nature”?
    Richard and others have given you direct responses. You just didn’t like what they said. So you pretend they didn’t happen.
    This is my one and only response to you.

  301. Linda Goodman says:

    richardscourtney says: February 10, 2014 at 2:50 pm
    “Assuming I had unlimited resources, I would use what nature has provided to build and to operate farms, fishing fleets, factories, cities, shops, schools, colleges, universities, hospitals, medical facilities, power stations (fossil fueled and nuclear), sewerage systems, systems for clean drinking water, roads, railways, aircraft, airports, and electronic communications so all human kind could have full bellies, health, wealth and the hope of happiness through a long life. That is what I would do.

    What would you do, live a short life in a cave as a hunter gatherer?”

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    I get what you’re saying, but most of humankind is starving and life is growing shorter, cheaper and poorer, while the richest grow richer. Nature supplies us with everything we need to live fully and free, yet most industry is now corrupted, while remaining small businesses are failing one by one through crushing regulations, and that’s just in the U.S.A.

    So what would I do? I’d make it genetically impossible to lie, no exceptions, not even to ourselves. Every crime starts with a lie. No lies, no crime, no injustice. Then all those things you mentioned could function as they should and every belly and life really would be full. I know it’s a pipe dream, but so is the question, so why not dream big?

  302. RACookPE1978 says:

    Linda Goodman says:
    February 10, 2014 at 2:52 pm

    btw, I know I’m a bunny hopping through the fox fields, but it would be interesting to see a direct response to the issues I raised, rather than just gleeful attacks on my presumed lack of knowledge, understanding, intelligence, and my assumed alliance with leprechauns.

    OK. You have bluntly and completely rejected several direct answers from myself, and from several other knowledgeable people in the power, global climate, and local environment fields, and have responded with what you “feel” and what you “have decided” based (apparently) on these feelings about the Japanese reactors. Thus, you have shown no ability to learn nor reason from experts, and so, why would you think that you are immune to derision or comment? No one can afford to waste time addressing long and intricate physical and scientific answers to a person who who refuses to even admit that her “fears” and imagination might be wrong.

    Now, pretend I am a nuclear physics major, a math major, electrci and mechanical and structural engineer, a power plant operator and maintainer who has stood under these things, touched them, felt them, worked and lived inside them and next to them for longer than you have lived. Pretend you “do have” some technical and nuclear physics and health physics knowledge and training. (Instead of just your nightmares based on your religious emotions of fear and desperation as you cling to your fear of the lightening and thunder in the heavens above.)

    Now, tell me how much actual “energy” (you know, the E=mc^2 type of real energy) has been “lost” from these cold dead power plants since the earthquake. After you do that, tell me how much that energy could affect anything …. including even the local environment around the plants. Show me why you fear what cannot happen.

    Remember now. Use math. Use real numbers. We do.

    Oh, by the way. Do you accept your local and international democrat and liberal politicians views about global warming, CO2, and the predicted future?

  303. RACookPE1978 says:

    Linda Goodman says:
    February 10, 2014 at 5:15 pm

    Nature supplies us with everything we need to live fully and free, yet most industry is now corrupted, while remaining small businesses are failing one by one through crushing regulations, and that’s just in the U.S.A.

    Nature in the wild would kill you in minutes. (Well, if you could find water, maybe three days.) And the worms would eat your decaying remains over the next few days.

    To live past the first 4 days, you would need to sell your body and muscles immediately: No work, no food. No 24 hours of grubbing and pulling food off of bushes and eating decaying fruit fallen on the dirt, you die. No protector or tribe, you die. No weapon, no fire, no fuel … you die. Should you succeed in finding a mate, in the wild, 3 out of 4 of your children would die before age 5, and (if you survived the four childbirths), you would die in agony before age 30.

    Ain’t it great to be living with technology, capitalism, fossil fuels, and somebody else’s taxes.

  304. Linda Goodman says:

    >>>>>>>>>
    richardscourtney says: February 10, 2014 at 3:09 pm

    Linda Goodman:

    I am grossly offended by your post at February 10, 2014 at 2:52 pm
    How dare you!?
    1. You made an assertion which made no sense to me rationally, logically, scientifically or theologically so I politely asked you to explain it.
    2. You replied that you had made that statement by mistake and you added a question which you put to me.
    3. I answered your question and put the same question back to you.
    4. You have replied with the assertions I have quoted in this post.

    I said NONE of those things and I have NOT made any “attacks” of you (gleeful or otherwise). You have raised no “issues” but have provided irrational rants and when queried on one of your assertions you replied you did not mean it.

    I am willing to accept your apology.

    Richard
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Richard:

    I’m sorry you thought I was referring to you, I was not. Your post was clearly not a ‘gleeful attack’. Snarky maybe, but not gleeful, nor an attack.

    And I made no comments ‘by mistake’, nor said that I did.

    I’m sorry my views don’t meet your standards. I often read WUWT so I’m better prepared to defend the truth, here in the heart of western Mass, with its creepity crawl towards CO2 strangulation. Much of the science flies over my head, some of it just as well, but the basics sink in. And I enjoy the banter when there’s a warblist in the cross hairs, as they’re so very deserving, whether through idiocy or deceit (are there any other reasons at this point?). I finally decided to jump in with my burning question (still burns) and for awhile it was good, but now, not so much.

    Linda

  305. Pamela Gray says:

    Linda, if you think animals in the wild all have full bellies, you seriously need to get out into nature more! In the wild, it is survival of the fittest and the fittest get most of the food while the weaker ones die off. Nature, untouched by human interference is a cruel, cruel world.

    It may be that this cruelty (weak members die while strong members get most of the food) is a required component of fit and healthy herds. Interference with this system may eventually cause its destruction. Since we are also of the animal kingdom, I wonder if we would set ourselves up for our own destruction if we endeavored to keep everybody’s belly full.

  306. Linda Goodman says:

    >>>>>>>>>>>

    RACookPE1978 commented on Over two-thirds of the contiguous USA covered with snow.

    OK. You have rejected several direct answers from myself, and from several other knowledeable people in the power, global climate, and local environment fields, and have responded with what you “feel” and what you “have decided” based (apparently) on these feelings. Now, pretend I am a nuclear physics major, a math major, electrci and mechanical and structural engineer, a power plant operator and maintainer who has stood under these things, touched them, felt them, worked and lived inside them and next to them for longer than you have lived. Pretend you “do have” some technical and nuclear physics and health physics knowledge and training. (Instead of just your nightmares based on your religious emotions of fear and desperation as you cling to your fear of the lightening and thunder in the heavens above.)

    Now, tell me how much actual “energy” (you know, the E=mc^2 type of real energy) has been “lost” from these cold dead power plants since the earthquake. After you do that, tell me how much that energy could affect anything …. including even the local environment around the plants. Show me why you fear what cannot happen.

    Remember now. Use math. Use real numbers. We do.

    Oh, by the way. Do you accept your local and international democrat and liberal politicians views about global warming, CO2, and the predicted future?

    >>>>>>>>>>>

    I receive emails alerting me to any responses, and I haven’t seen one from you, I’m sorry.

    I don’t doubt your expertise, but does that negate the profound risks of nuclear energy? I’m sorry if I offended you or anyone else with my opinions, but they’re not based on ‘feelings’, they’re based on my intelligent ability to discern the truth from half a century of learning, experience and common sense.

    And no, I don’t support the Big Lie of global warming. Once I started paying attention I soon realized it’s a $ making racket and control method. Before Climategate I thought “Well, it doesn’t appear to be getting warmer, so no worries.” And I’m from MA, so I’d welcome a little warming anyway. I hadn’t seen An Inconvenient Truth, so I was not propagandized. Then I educated myself via Climategate and follow up info like WUWT, and I’ve been appalled ever since.

    But I was appalled by nuclear power long before, and I’ve yet to learn anything that convinces me not to be, quite the contrary! I’d LOVE to be proven wrong, it beats fear and outrage, but I’m not the type to go into denial over painful realities, so I’m not easily placated. I’m sure I’d be much happier if I were.

    So please, tell me something that makes sense, that proves that I should have no concerns over Fukushima, or the growing nuclear waste, or the ticking time bomb reactors sitting amidst millions of people depending on there NOT being an earthquake, or a tornado, or a malfunction, or human error, or any number of other OOPS that could go horribly wrong. I do not have FAITH in nuclear power or in its ‘impeccable safety record’, which is anything but. It’s not a religion, it’s a potentially devastating power unlike any other in the history of the world. Radiation is an invisible killer, you can’t see it, smell it, touch it, hear it, taste it (unless it’s real close, then it tastes metallic), meanwhile cancer rates keep climbing.

    I’d love to be convinced that my concerns are unjustified, but attacking my intelligence rather than addressing my concerns has the opposite effect (not talking about you specifically). Any scientific concept can be explained in layman’s terms, and something as important as the debate over nuclear power should certainly be explained so that skeptics & opponents understand, assuming there really is no need to be deeply concerned.

    It’s ironic to use the same methods to defend nuclear power – appeal to authority and attack the messenger – that AGW defenders use. (& they love to baffle with b.s. of course!) And the greater irony is that one is claiming it’s safe while the other is claiming it’s deadly, yet the overwhelming evidence in both cases indicates the opposite.

    And I’m sorry if I offended anyone, that was not my intention! Foxes are very cool and bunnies are just not in their league :]

  307. Linda Goodman says:

    RACookPE1978 comment February 10, 2014 at 5:31 pm
    “Nature in the wild would kill you in minutes. (Well, if you could find water, maybe three days.) And the worms would eat your decaying remains.

    In the wild, 3 out of 4 of your children would die before age 5, and (if you survived the four childbirths), you would die in agony before age 30. Ain’t it great to be living with technology, capitalism, fossil fuels, and somebody else’s taxes.”
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I agree!
    I think you misunderstood what I meant – I’m not a Luddite Marxist whacko. Everything is provided by nature, including technology of course, in the form of raw materials. I believe in the capitalist system, in human progress & creative spirit, absolutely. And in fossil fuels, until we develop something better, or get it out of hiding:) I don’t even like camping, thank you very much. And Julian Simon is my hero!

  308. Linda Goodman says:

    >>>>>>>>>
    Pamela Gray commented

    Linda, if you think animals in the wild all have full bellies, you seriously need to get out into nature more! In the wild, it is survival of the fittest and the fittest get most of the food while the weaker ones die off. Nature, untouched by human interference is a cruel, cruel world.

    It may be that this cruelty (weak members die while strong members get most of the food) is a required component of fit and healthy herds. Interference with this system may eventually cause its destruction. Since we are also of the animal kingdom, I wonder if we would set ourselves up for our own destruction if we endeavored to keep everybody’s belly full.

    >>>>>>>>

    Hi Pamela, I see your point, though for what it’s worth I believe the human mind sets us apart. I hold Julian Simon’s view that the creative spirit of human ingenuity has the unique potential and duty to transform and uplift the world and as shepherds of the animal kingdom, though we’re not doing too well so far. Simon (‘The Doomslayer’) and AGW guru Paul Erlich deeply disagreed over the concept of overpopulation – he proved Erlich dead wrong about his fundamental premise and it was beautiful. Yet Erlich is still with us and Simon is now not, a stilled voice and great loss.

    Sorry if I’m causing nausea, but it’s not pie in the sky – not at all. Simon’s work continues to shine, putting eugenicists to shame, if they were capable of shame. Simon’s detailed, statistical research proves there’s more than enough for all, and that the real danger is in squandering so many potentially brilliant and creative human minds through poverty and poor education, a great loss for what could be a shining future. I think parenting should be taught from an early age for that very reason, just for starters. But I’m not holding my breath, because now there’s Commie Core, aiming to rot our children’s minds. Sorry this is way off topic. Here’s an intriguing article if you’re interested, very uplifting :] http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/5.02/ffsimon_pr.html

  309. wbrozek says:

    Linda Goodman says:
    February 10, 2014 at 7:27 pm
    But I was appalled by nuclear power long before, and I’ve yet to learn anything that convinces me not to be, quite the contrary! I’d LOVE to be proven wrong

    Radon, for example, can be beneficial to your health in small doses, eg 32 hours a year in a radon mine shaft. It is like the sun. Too much and you can get skin cancer or a sunburn, but in small amounts, you get vitamin D. See:

    http://sunshinehealthmine.com/Radon_For_Health.html

  310. richardscourtney says:

    Linda Goodman:

    I read your early posts and thought you were uninformed and mistaken, so I attempted to help you to discover your irrationality for yourself.

    I am now convinced that you are the latest in a recent series of trolls coming to WUWT to disrupt by pretending to be other than they are.

    The reason for my present conviction is the following.

    At February 10, 2014 at 1:47 pm I asked you to explain your ridiculous assertion (made at February 10, 2014 at 12:55 pm) that

    Nature is perfect

    .
    You replied at February 10, 2014 at 2:28 pm saying

    Cute. Everything changes, of course, change is the only constant. Nature, the Galaxy, the Universe, is a perfect system that self corrects. Nature supplies everything we need.. and most adorably, WE evolved from its earthy womb. Okay, maybe it goofed a little there.

    Note that: you admitted you “goofed” when you had claimed “Nature is perfect.

    Later,I objected to your untrue and offensive post at February 10, 2014 at 2:52 pm and you replied – but did not apologise – at February 10, 2014 at 6:03 pm, Your reply begins saying

    Richard:
    I’m sorry you thought I was referring to you, I was not. Your post was clearly not a ‘gleeful attack’. Snarky maybe, but not gleeful, nor an attack.
    And I made no comments ‘by mistake’, nor said that I did .

    Emphasis added: RSC

    YOU LIAR!
    You DID admit you “goofed” when you made your laughably untrue assertion that “Nature is perfect”.
    (Incidentally, I was not “snarky”.)

    Of course, your lie could have been an indication of Alzheimer’s and not deliberate mendacity. However, at February 10, 2014 at 5:15 pm you had written of your desire to improve the world saying,

    So what would I do? I’d make it genetically impossible to lie, no exceptions, not even to ourselves. Every crime starts with a lie. No lies, no crime, no injustice .

    I can see why you would say that. Your virtual “life” on WUWT is a lie.

    Richard

  311. daddylonglegs says:

    Linda Goodman says:
    February 10, 2014 at 12:55 pm

    spider man: Nature is perfect, Man is reckless. Inhaling, absorbing and ingesting manufactured isotopes is harmful, cumulative and ultimately deadly. There are no ‘safe levels’, only degrees of harm determined by quality, quantity/rate of exposure and genetics.

    This is helpful post since it clarifies the nature of your delusion. Nothing to be ashamed of, you are far from alone, it affects our generation as a whole.

    Nature is ugly as well as beautiful, everything dies, death is a part of life. Were you expecting to live forever? Did your health insurance promise you this?

    Every second that life passes carries a statistical risk of death. Even if we are naked in a vacuum not in contact with anything “natural” or human-made.

    Your assertion that everything human-made is evil, dirty and deadly looks like the Gnostic religion of new testament times.

    The best epidemiological study of risks of radiation was the shipyard workers study. Two similar shipyards were studies, tens of thousands of workers over a decade or two. Workforces with similar socio-economic status profiles. Only difference? One handled nuclear subs and ships, the other not. The result – no cancer risk except in the highest dose category, >50 mGy per year. The official response – concerted efforts to conceal and downplay the results. This is probably the first time most reading this have heard of this study.

    In the list of things affecting lifespan, the massively largest factors are socio-economic status and social connectedness. Delete someone from your Christmas-card list? This will shorten their life more than any amount of radiation, tobacco or any deadly chemical-du-jour. (Don’t worry I’m not expecting one from you :-)

    Epidemiology is a rather sick science, its a lot of folks in a food fight fighting over the statistical “cake of death”. You see everyone dies, but what of? Epidemiologists spend their time horsetrading with eachother over how many get to die of their pet toxin and not their competitors’ toxin or radiation etc. From a distance its quite farsical. Sometimes they forget that a person can only die once, generally speaking.

    Your fears are badly our of perspective. And fears are the ammunition of political power. Your fears are there for a reason – they play to the political advantage of a certain constituency who do not necessarily have your best interests at heart.

    About France, last week French researchers reported that the incidence of cancer is expected to soar by 90% in developed nations by 2030 – yikes!

    You’re flogging a dead horse trying to tie this to radiation. Radiation is not mysterious – it is very simple to measure. 99.999999% of French people have radiation dominated by radon, cosmic rays, brazil nuts and all the natural sources of radiation.

    Think of that the next time you bite into a brazil nut – its the most radioactive food on the planet.

    The cancers you refer to are the same in France as everywhere else, linked to obesity, alcohol, other lifestyle factors which in general dwarf environmental factors in the fight over the cake of death.

    BTW daddylonglegs refers to the cranefly, not the arachnid.

  312. Linda Goodman says:

    richardscourtney commented On Feb 11, 2014, at 3:14 AM:
    “Linda Goodman:

    I read your early posts and thought you were uninformed and mistaken, so I attempted to help you to discover your irrationality for yourself. I am now convinced that you are the latest in a recent series of trolls coming to WUWT to disrupt by pretending to be other than they are.

    ++++++
    Well, there’s a dwarf on my daddy’s side, but that’s the closest I get, sorry.

    And what did I disrupt? Actually, I was encouraged to continue, for comic relief. Apparently I failed.
    ++++++

    “I asked you to explain your ridiculous assertion (made at February 10, 2014 at 12:55 pm) that Nature is perfect”

    ++++++
    Yes, a perfect system because it self-corrects, my opinion. And perfection is subjective, isn’t it? Isn’t everything subject to change and improvement?
    ++++++

    “You replied at February 10, 2014 at 2:28 pm saying

    Nature, the Galaxy, the Universe, is a perfect system that self corrects. Nature supplies everything we need.. and most adorably, WE evolved from its earthy womb. Okay, maybe it goofed a little there. Note that: you admitted you “goofed” when you had claimed “Nature is perfect.”

    ++++++
    It was just humor, Richard Scourtney.

    But I’ll clarify and expand.. humanity isn’t perfect, but nature self-corrects, so maybe we’ll get there someday, if we don’t go extinct with our dangerous toys in the process. And by ‘perfect’ I mean to reach our full human potential, before changing into something More..? As long as our brain capacity remains largely dormant collectively, we’ve got a really long way to go. We are our brothers’ keeper. My opinion.
    ++++++

    “Later,I objected to your untrue and offensive post at February 10, 2014 at 2:52 pm and you replied – but did not apologise”

    ++++++
    I won’t apologize for something I didn’t say. I am sorry you assumed wrongly and said so, because it triggered a firestorm.

    I’m sorry if I upset or offended you. I assume my opinion on nuclear power was the trigger, but you know what they say about assumptions and opinions, so really, who cares?
    ++++++

  313. richardscourtney says:

    Linda Goodman:

    At February 11, 2014 at 12:14 pm you say

    I’m sorry if I upset or offended you. I assume my opinion on nuclear power was the trigger, but you know what they say about assumptions and opinions, so really, who cares?

    NO! That is more of your lies!
    I objected in no uncertain terms to your lies.
    I did not mention “nuclear power”
    You are not in the least contrite because if you were then you would have apologised for your first offensive post when I asked you to apologise for that.

    Your writing style and content have changed now you have been ‘outed’ as a troll pretending to be other than you are.

    I suggest that nobody ‘feeds’ you any more because it is clear you are only here as a deceptive and disruptive troll.

    Richard

  314. Linda Goodman says:

    daddylonglegs commented on On Feb 11, 2014, at 12:10 PM

    “Nature is ugly as well as beautiful, everything dies, death is a part of life. ”

    +++
    I certainly agree.
    +++

    “Every second that life passes carries a statistical risk of death. Even if we are naked in a vacuum not in contact with anything “natural” or human-made.”

    +++
    I agree. But is the implication that since we all have to die sometime, why worry about manmade radiation?
    +++

    “Your assertion that everything human-made is evil, dirty and deadly looks like the Gnostic religion of new testament times.”

    +++
    i never asserted that. I think you’ve mistaken me for Ted Kazynski. And I’m not familiar with Gnosticism, though I was raised agnostic :O]
    +++

    “The best epidemiological study of risks of radiation was the shipyard workers study. Two similar shipyards were studies, tens of thousands of workers over a decade or two. Workforces with similar socio-economic status profiles. Only difference? One handled nuclear subs and ships, the other not. The result – no cancer risk except in the highest dose category, >50 mGy per year.”

    +++
    That study appears to address worker safety only, and the results aren’t surprising, as there would be rigid safety precautions for the workplace. My concern is the lethal, accumulating waste and the increasing risk of aging reactors, their vulnerability to changing earth, ocean and weather conditions and human error causing catastrophic accidents, with serious harm initially and far graver harm to many more people over time through cumulative damage.

    Chernobyl’s stats are in and bare this out (the real stats, not the fairytale), And it’s commonly stated that Fukishima is the most serious accident since Chernobyl, but Fukushima is far more catastrophic, as a quick look at the facts make clear. So I worry.

    And cancer rates are rising pretty much all over and notoriously higher near (some? most? all?) reactors, with the truth occasionally leaking out, so to speak. But there continues to be plausible deniability because radiation is invisible and kills slowly over time in small doses. So, move along, nothing to see and don’t forget to take your mother and her dog for their cancer therapy.
    +++

    “The official response – concerted efforts to conceal and downplay the results. This is probably the first time most reading this have heard of this study.”

    +++
    It doesn’t address the gravest risks, so there’s no reason for either side to conceal it.
    +++

    “In the list of things affecting lifespan, the massively largest factors are socio-economic status and social connectedness. Delete someone from your Christmas-card list? This will shorten their life more than any amount of radiation, tobacco or any deadly chemical-du-jour. (Don’t worry I’m not expecting one from you :-)”

    +++
    My Christmas card giving is sporadic – does that make me lethal?

    So the studies show that it’s not big bad business (not saying i think all big business is bad!) polluting the environment in a toxic kaleidoscope of ways, it’s our own lack of self control and poor social habits, of course. Meanwhile back in reality the voices sounding the alarm of rising radiation get little to no coverage, kind of like AGW skeptics. And the cancer rates just keep climbing. Cancer causing radiation is the proverbial elephant in the livingroom.

    And down the rabbit hole at the Mad Hatter’s Tea Party, radiation is used as a !!!treatment for cancer!!! because it kills Everything, eventually even the patient. The treatment is feared as much as the cancer, but what can you do? Radiation and mustard gas are the only stated options, and btw, you’ll have to pay through the nose for the privilege.
    +++

    “Epidemiology is a rather sick science, its a lot of folks in a food fight fighting over the statistical “cake of death”. You see everyone dies, but what of? Epidemiologists spend their time horsetrading with eachother over how many get to die of their pet toxin and not their competitors’ toxin or radiation etc. From a distance its quite farsical. Sometimes they forget that a person can only die once, generally speaking.”

    +++
    Gallows humor, sure. How/where can ‘civilians’ gain access to (tax funded) epidemiological statistics on cancer rates from all over the U.S., for starters, for the layperson? Though the accessible results could be susceptible to politic$, is there online access to all those stats?
    +++

    “Your fears are badly our of perspective. And fears are the ammunition of political power. Your fears are there for a reason – they play to the political advantage of a certain constituency who do not necessarily have your best interests at heart.”

    +++
    I don’t think so, four years ago, maybe. Happy tears streamed down my foolish face when Obama was sworn in – the first time. For one shining moment I thought everything would be Okay! Then came Climategate. Imagine my surprise to learn that communism is making a comeback. I’d thought ‘progressive’ meant…. progressive! That was a huge wake up call, and I haven’t been the same since. But my concern about nuclear power is part of my DNA.. um, that would be both figuratively & literally. In fact, The first Intercontinental Ballistic Missile and I were launched on the same day. So maybe I’m just jealous ICBM got more positive attention? While it blazed across the starry sky, all I did was poop and cry.
    +++

    “Radiation is not mysterious – it is very simple to measure. 99.999999% of French people have radiation dominated by radon, cosmic rays, brazil nuts and all the natural sources of radiation.”

    +++
    But there’s a profound difference between natural radiation and the lethal radiation being generated via nuclear reactors (time bombs vulnerable to shaky earth & shores, raging skies & human error), cumulatively released in the soil, water & air and discarded as hot waste all over the world. But I want to be wrong. And I’m sorry I’m repeating myself.
    +++

    “The cancers you refer to are the same in France as everywhere else, linked to obesity, alcohol, other lifestyle factors which in general dwarf environmental factors in the fight over the cake of death.”

    +++
    That’s what we’re told, alright. “It’s your own fault, people!”
    +++

    “BTW daddylonglegs refers to the cranefly, not the arachnid.”

    +++
    Oh, bat food :O] (sorry.. i just googled that:)

    btw It was relayed to me that if I don’t respond to posts, I’ll appear rude or avoiding, but if you ignore me, I promise I’ll go away :]
    +++

  315. Linda Goodman says:

    wbrozek says:February 10, 2014 at 9:53 pm
    “Radon, for example, can be beneficial to your health in small doses, eg 32 hours a year in a radon mine shaft. It is like the sun. Too much and you can get skin cancer or a sunburn, but in small amounts, you get vitamin D. See: http://sunshinehealthmine.com/Radon_For_Health.html

    Thank you for the link & info. Very cool!

  316. Werner Brozek says:

    Linda Goodman says:
    February 11, 2014 at 6:26 pm
    You are welcome! They are good for getting rid of arthritis pain and many other things, however radon is not good for everything. People are not stupid. If it did not help them, people would not be going back every year.

  317. Gail Combs says:

    richardscourtney says: @ February 10, 2014 at 2:50 pm
    ….Assuming I had unlimited resources, I would use what nature has provided to build and to operate…
    >>>>
    And I would be right beside you helping in any way I could.
    ….

    To Linda Goodman,

    My husband is a physicist, I am a chemist. We have more than one friend who is a nuclear physicist and we live close enough to a nuclear power plant that I can see it out my window. The automobile you drive is a heck of a lot more deadly than a nuclear power plant. Governments are even more deadly DEMOCIDE: Death by Government

  318. Linda Goodman says:

    On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:46 PM, Watts Up With That? wrote:
    Gail Combs commented On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:46 PM

    To Linda Goodman,

    My husband is a physicist, I am a chemist. We have more than one friend who is a nuclear physicist and we live close enough to a nuclear power plant that I can see it out my window. The automobile you drive is a heck of a lot more deadly than a nuclear power plant. Governments are even more deadly DEMOCIDE: Death by Government

    >>>>>

    Hi Gail,

    Thank you for sharing the link. Very disturbing to see it all in one place. But the overpopulation crowd might not think so. When someone says there are too many people in the world, I say “Then why don’t you kill yourself and make it one less?” I used to just think it, but I just got my AARP card.

    I assume you shared your profession and proximity to a reactor to make the point that you’re both knowledgeable about and supportive of nuclear power? So respectfully, four questions come to mind: What is the design & age of the reactor, how long have you lived there and are you privy to stats on local cancer rates, from ground zero on out? I asked myself those questions too, because I live in the Connecticut River Valley – can’t get the last one answered, though. That one’s a hottie, so to speak.

    You mention the risk of driving, but there’s no better option, so it’s well worth it. And leaving the house in the morning poses a risk, but that’s no reason to dump, pour, leak, release or otherwise dispose of lethal isotopes into the ground, water and atmosphere.

    it makes sense that if you work in the nuclear industry you’re biased in favor of nuclear power, just as pediatricians are biased in favor of childhood vaccinations. Yet the objections to both come from deep concern, and ‘non-professionals’ should not be treated like idiots for daring to question authority. And evidence of illness and death should not be met with condescending talking points. There’s something very wrong with that picture.

    I assume that work in the nuclear field must be kind of sexy, all that power at your fingertips, all that danger kept in check, kind of like being a lion tamer or a fighter pilot, though there’s no risk of a plume of lions or fighter planes killing every living thing within miles and rendering the area uninhabitable for hundreds or thousands of years. How many areas are there in the world today that fit that description, as a result of the nuclear industry? And all in under 80 years. What will the next 80 bring?

    Someone mentioned thorium reactors as the answer to nuclear waste, and maybe they are, I don’t know. But it would not remove the risk of a deadly reactor accident. No other technology poses such an enormous risk, with no way to guarantee safety. Every day waste is shipped and dumped, and every reactor is at the mercy of a major ‘act of God’ and human error. And as it ages the risk of malfunction grows more likely. I know there are no guarantees in life, but come on.

    So the only humane answer imho, is to decommission every nuclear reactor in the world ASAP, and put our considerable resources into developing solar power, by far the greatest potential source of energy available. And with graphene in the picture, we may be on the verge. And even if that’s not the case for awhile, fossil fuels will keep us going until we do develop a source of energy that won’t poison us slowly but surely. The steadily-rising cancer rates are a glowing red flag and for the sake of humanity and the world we should consider a change for the better, imho. http://theenergycollective.com/tinacasey/323056/graphene-heats-race-cheap-organic-solar-cells

    Then too, some suspect there’s cheap & clean energy technology, & possibly a long hidden Tesla invention, suppressed in favor of profits and control. To assume that’s not possible is to be wicked naive, as we say in MA. If Tesla had been allowed to continue on his course, rather than striking a devastating deal, nuclear power may have been nothing more than a scary glint in Enrico Fermi’s eye. http://www.trueactivist.com/the-10-inventions-of-nikola-tesla-that-changed-the-world/ Right, in a perfect world… (by perfect I mean…. oh never mind)

  319. DavidG says:

    Porter Fox has his head so far up his ass, the lump in his throat is his nose. Nuff said!

  320. Jeff says:

    “Linda Goodman says:
    February 12, 2014 at 10:19 am
    Someone mentioned thorium reactors as the answer to nuclear waste, and maybe they are, I don’t know. But it would not remove the risk of a deadly reactor accident. No other technology poses such an enormous risk, with no way to guarantee safety. Every day waste is shipped and dumped, and every reactor is at the mercy of a major ‘act of God’ and human error. And as it ages the risk of malfunction grows more likely. I know there are no guarantees in life, but come on.”

    I was the one who mentioned Thorium reactors as a means of reducing/eliminating waste (other folks may have as well, didn’t see any on this thread, though). Linda, do you even understand how these devices work?

    Do you understand what happened in Fukushima could have occurred to any other type of facility, e.g. chemical processing plant, ammonia/fertilizer factory, what-have-you, that uses or produces hazardous chemicals/compounds on the way to producing USEFUL PRODUCTS that are necessary for life as we know it? Are you willing to give up everything in order to have that safety bubble around you (precautionary principle) so that there is no risk at all? Are you also presumptious enough to make that decision for EVERYONE ELSE?

    The reactor at Fukushima withstood a Tsunami that was outside the design boundaries of its construction, and would have had no problems whatsoever had the spent fuel rods been dealt with as they were before the, er, precautionists fiddled with the storage and disposal methods of said fuel rods. Bear in mind that the reactor facility was quite old and soon to be replaced….currect technology would survive an even stronger earthquake/Tsunami.

    Ideologies such as yours are beginning to bankrupt Europe; in particular Germany, where I see
    electric bills going up and up and up, with the environment being blighted by windmill bird-choppers and hazardous-chemical solar panels, not to mention the possibility of a “power street” running from north to south Germany costing Billions of Euros and, in the end, benefitting no one except the already rich. BASF have just announced that they are reducing or perhaps eliminating further investment in Germany due to the high energy prices (Energiewende, or moving away from nuclear), and other companies have indicated that are looking at doing the same.

    You speak of problems, potential issues, etc., etc. WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS? STATISTICS?
    DOCUMENTED PROBLEMS (no, not from Jeff Rense, etc. [I'm not THAT Jeff...]) or the like…
    There are a number of links noted above with a lot of technical detail about Fukushima and power
    generation in general. There is also a site (I need to look it up…) that details the fatalities due to
    Wind and Solar power – quite interesting, they are both dangerous…. You might also like to know that the rare-earth metals used in the generator portion of these monstrous windmills are also poisonous, illegal in some places, to boot, due to health issues, although they are mined in China without much fuss…another interesting story you might like to run down while you are complaining about risk and health problems. Subsonic waves and shadow patterns are also a problem, I’ve read….

    Please, “feelings” are good….facts are better….I know that my family and I will FEEL a lot better
    it we don’t go broke paying for “green” energy….you know, the kind that lines the wallets or
    politicians and power brokers with “green” that the rest of us have earned….

  321. Linda Goodman says:

    Jeff commented On Feb 12, 2014, at 9:51 PM:

    I was the one who mentioned Thorium reactors as a means of reducing/eliminating waste (other folks may have as well, didn’t see any on this thread, though). Linda, do you even understand how these devices work?

    Do you understand what happened in Fukushima could have occurred to any other type of facility, e.g. chemical processing plant, ammonia/fertilizer factory, what-have-you, that uses or produces hazardous chemicals/compounds on the way to producing USEFUL PRODUCTS that are necessary for life as we know it? Are you willing to give up everything in order to have that safety bubble around you (precautionary principle) so that there is no risk at all? Are you also presumptious enough to make that decision for EVERYONE ELSE?

    ++++
    Thanks Jeff, but I’m not a watermelon. I know the ‘precautionary principle’ is designed to cripple us economically, wind power is a cruel hoax and solar power is not yet a viable replacement. I agree that fossil fuels, gas & coal are our best sources for energy, so why then nuclear? All that waste and risk to BOIL WATER. And the chemical factories you mentioned aren’t sneakily lethal and are largely necessary, unlike nuclear power (apart from weapon making). What other toxins are as lethal and undetectable as radioactive isotopes? As far as I know, none. And no I don’t understand how the devices work, but I didn’t make any technical statements, just general observations and opinions.

    And after reading up on thorium reactors, I thought these were a good representation of each side and worthy to share here – pro: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/10255442/Thorium-put-to-the-test-as-policymakers-rethink-nuclear.html & anti: http://www.fukuleaks.org/web/?p=3101 But even the ‘pro’ gives reason to doubt, especially in the comments section.
    ++++

    The reactor at Fukushima withstood a Tsunami that was outside the design boundaries of its construction, and would have had no problems whatsoever had the spent fuel rods been dealt with as they were before the, er, precautionists fiddled with the storage and disposal methods of said fuel rods. Bear in mind that the reactor facility was quite old and soon to be replaced….currect technology would survive an even stronger earthquake/Tsunami.

    ++++

    I read it was a GE design flaw, and there are others like it in the U.S. And I understand precautionists stand perfectly still as much as possible so as not to disturb anything, so fiddling with nuclear waste seems out of character. And I read that the reactors were considerably past their ‘use by’ date, so what were they waiting for to replace them? Seems reckless to me. And how were they intending to safely move 40 years of spent fuel rods from the rooftops? How will they do it now?

    Someone posted this link the other day http://www.cfact.org/2013/10/12/physicist-there-was-no-fukushima-nuclear-disaster/ … the nuclear physicist who wrote the article claims there was no radiation released at Fukushima, but the sick sailors from the USS Ronald Reagan and other mounting evidence expose that as a lie. There’s a lot of lying and denying going on, especially the lie by omission through a media near-blackout, so most people naturally assume there’s nothing to worry about or ‘they’ would surely tell us.

    So what’s gained by either side lying? On one side there’s money & power, but on the other, what? People who fear their own shadows? Though I agree there’s an hysterical element and it’s tricky to find reasonable info. it tends to be either ‘don’t worry, be happy’ or ‘we’re all gonna die!’ The extremists turn most people off while the placaters placate and the result is generally the same. But here’s a good source, imo: http://www.fukuleaks.org/web

    So, forty years worth of spent fuel rods in six pools ***atop the buildings*** must be kept submerged to avoid a massive disaster, and some of it is super-deadly plutonium based MOX fuel. By comparison, Chernobyl was just three years old, just three years of (plutonium-free) spent fuel from one reactor. And Chernobyl’s leak was (allegedly) stopped within weeks, yet traveled thousands of miles over time, while Fukushima is going on three years, with no end in sight as yet. http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/at-two-reactors-a-race-to-contain-meltdowns/2011/03/13/ABtdVDU_story.html http://my.firedoglake.com/kirkmurphy/tag/masint/

    So, if sailors are dying from just 1-2 months exposure after the accident, primarily through the desalinated water, what might the sea life be experiencing with the continual flow of radionuclides into the ocean? And how much of that is working its way up the food chain and for how long? And since the ocean influences our atmosphere, what might this unprecedented situation lead to? http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/science/ocean-relationship-ocean-atmosphere.html “The atmosphere affects the oceans and is in turn influenced by them. The action of winds blowing over the ocean surface creates waves and the great current systems of the oceans. In turn, the oceans act upon the atmosphere—in ways not clearly understood—to influence and modify the world’s climate and weather systems.”

    There are a lot of reports of marine devastation, including but not limited to the sudden sardine disappearance, dissolving starfish, ‘siamese twin’ whale babies, dead dolphins, strange behaviors, giant tumors, sick and balding polar bears, and on and on and on… And not a single MSM article about these crises mentions Fukushima as a possible cause. You’ll only – and always – see the word ‘fukushima’ in the comments section. I’ll post the MSM links if you want, though it’ll take some time to find them again.
    ++++

    Ideologies such as yours are beginning to bankrupt Europe; in particular Germany, where I see
    electric bills going up and up and up, with the environment being blighted by windmill bird-choppers and hazardous-chemical solar panels, not to mention the possibility of a “power street” running from north to south Germany costing Billions of Euros and, in the end, benefitting no one except the already rich. BASF have just announced that they are reducing or perhaps eliminating further investment in Germany due to the high energy prices (Energiewende, or moving away from nuclear), and other companies have indicated that are looking at doing the same.

    ++++
    Jeez, I agree with you! Carbon taxes, supply cutbacks and high energy bills are causing people to be cold, broke and hungry all over Europe, and it’ll be here full bore if the epa and executive orders prevail. And what about the ‘smart meters’? I understand they introduced them to Denver and it was a disaster, high bills, malfunctions, fires, illness, so it’s pulled back for now, but we can’t have the ‘smart grid’ without the ‘smart meters’, can we? Controlling how much energy we can use in our own homes.. that’s some scary ship.

    But it would be impossible to pull off this crazy con without the complicity of the media, including, and maybe *especially* the ‘liberal alternative’ media. Just one Time cover story about the Biggest Lie Ever Told, and it would collapse like a house of cards in a co2 exhale. The only media with honest coverage that I can see is conservative – both mainstream and alternative – which for most fuzzy liberals is reason to ignore it. So it remains a divisive issue when the whole WORLD should be aligned against it.
    ++++

    You speak of problems, potential issues, etc., etc. WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS? STATISTICS?
    DOCUMENTED PROBLEMS (no, not from Jeff Rense, etc. [I'm not THAT Jeff...]) or the like…

    ++++
    Jeff Rense, really? I’m not sure what you’re asking for. You want stats & facts about.. what? They’re just my observations and opinions based on what I’ve learned, but I don’t have a collection of everything that helped me develop these views – there are thousands of sources. Do you want documented proof from me that nuclear waste is dumped, that reactors are aging and a growing risk, that some are poorly designed? But isn’t that common knowledge? I’ll post more links to my recent sources if you want, though there are a kazillion online, just Google and discern and you’re good to go, right?

    I read all over and check in with Natural News, Climate Depot, James Delingpole, Dragon Slayers, Rosa Koire, WUWT (i may be in a rut), The Daily Bell, American Thinker and a host of others, even Drudge on occasion, though I always feel dirty afterwards. I used to read HuffPo and other ‘liberal’ sites, until the Climategate slap upside my head. Any source that supports AGW at this point is in cahoots, in denial or mentally challenged, imho.
    ++++

    There are a number of links noted above with a lot of technical detail about Fukushima and power
    generation in general. There is also a site (I need to look it up…) that details the fatalities due to
    Wind and Solar power – quite interesting, they are both dangerous….You might also like to know that the rare-earth metals used in the generator portion of these monstrous windmills are also poisonous, illegal in some places, to boot, due to health issues, although they are mined in China without much fuss…

    ++++
    I agree windmills are awful and absurd and it’s not toxins from most manufacturing that concern me so much, I know they’re largely a necessary ‘evil’ as we develop technologically. I don’t want to keep repeating myself, but it’s deadly isotopes in the service of boiling water that I object to. And fossil fuels, gas & coal are fine until we fully develop or uncover a better option, imho. If oil spills you know it, if a gas tank blows you know it, if coal spews smoke you know it, if a nuclear reactor leaks you don’t know it! And ‘Trust me” just doesn’t cut it. And the cancer rates just keep rising.
    ++++

    another interesting story you might like to run down while you are complaining about risk and health problems. Subsonic waves and shadow patterns are also a problem, I’ve read….

    ++++
    Yes, shadow puppets are disturbing, but I’m not familiar with subsonic waves… is that like an underwater fart?
    ++++

    Please, “feelings” are good….facts are better….I know that my family and I will FEEL a lot better

    ++++
    What’s with all the comments about my FEELINGS? Is this a Vulcan site? Okay, I admit I have them.
    ++++

    it we don’t go broke paying for “green” energy….you know, the kind that lines the wallets or
    politicians and power brokers with “green” that the rest of us have earned….

    ++++
    I agree, but how can it be stopped? Thanks to the global media’s complicity, it’s being forced on us despite the obvious. Even after Climategate, even with nature mocking them at every turn, the bulldozer rolls on. They know we know they’re lying and they do not care! They aim to crush and control us by demonizing THIN AIR! I know I’m not saying anything everyone here doesn’t already know, just venting really. It helps. I usually say nothing here in the warbling valley.

    It’s the 21st century and no one should be forced to use less energy, to shrink our lives, our every breath called a burden on our fellow man. Our shared dream is to expand human possibilities, not diminish them. But a kind of madness is taking hold and a dystopian nightmare looms if we don’t all wake up in time. Or maybe I’m just being dramatic.

    Speaking of eugeninistas, why have citizens, customers, clients, patients, PEOPLE come to be called ‘consumers’? A slug is a consumer, a cockroach, a maggot, are all consumers. The lowest forms of life on this planet are consumers. When did this contemptuous word emerge as our defining essence? Time’s piece, worth passing on: http://business.time.com/2012/04/18/should-we-stop-referring-to-people-as-consumers/ The dream not forgotten: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/5.02/ffsimon_pr.html

  322. Conservatives Are the Real Enemy says:

    Forget PhD’s we have all of the climate genuises we need right here. “It’s cold and snowing so climate change is a hoax!” I’m on the edge of my seat for what you’ll be saying this summer when we are in a draught and are setting record high temperatures. I’m guessing silence.

  323. dbstealey says:

    CATRE says:

    “I’m guessing silence.”

    You won’t get silence around here, when you spout nonsense. And what is your CV, anyway?

    Global temperatures have not risen for seventeen years now, according to both satellite records. That is a LONG time to wait for your runaway globaloney.

    Catastrophic AGW is a “hoax”. There is no better way to describe it. It is a money making scam, and I understand the desire of scientific reprobates to cash in on the “carbon” scare.

    But what is YOUR excuse? Ignorance?

  324. Linda Goodman says:

    And a Marixt’s wet dream, I’d say. And not ignorance, but arrogance it seems. They own the mouthpiece and the rule book, so the naked emperor carries on. And they sure love to strut that pimpled arse here.

    Are you smarter than a fourth grader?.. Carbon, the building blocks of life:
    6 neutrons, 6 protons & 6 electrons.

  325. philincalifornia says:

    “silence”

    Must’ve missed you pronouncing stridently the record low temperatures:

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/08/usa-cold-weather-records-outnumber-warm-records-6-to-1/

    …. or were you hiding in the bathroom ?

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