Climate campaigners start to eat their own over ‘Cleantech Crash’

The Center for American Progress affiliated attack group “Forecast the Facts” is turning on the CBS News magazine “60 Minutes” for reporting truthfully on the issues surrounding green technology last Sunday.

Cleantech_crash_screencap

See the press release below and the full video from CBS News follows.

For Immediate Release January 9, 2013
Contact: Anna Zuccaro, anna@fitzgibbonmedia.com, (914) 523-9145

Benghazi Redux? 60 Minutes “Cleantech Crash” Segment Severely Misleads Viewers

Climate Group Forms Online Petition in Demand of Public Editor

Washington, DC — On January 5th, 60 Minutes aired a segment entitled “Cleantech Crash” and made false accusations regarding the nation’s clean energy economy. The broadcast failed to mention that the clean energy industry has actually been booming, and that the increasing and severe threats of climate change makes the transition from fossil fuel pollution an economic necessity.

Not only did the “Cleantech Crash” segment mislead viewers, it threatened our ability to confront the global warming crisis.

Fortunately, 60 Minutes can still set the record straight: by appointing a Public Editor, the program can see to it that this particular broadcast is investigated, ensure that all future reporting serves the public interest and deliver more accurate information about climate change to their audience.

“Those who watched 60 Minutes this past Sunday might be under the impression that cleantech is dead, our hope for a much-needed green energy economy down the tubes,” said Forecast the Facts campaign director Brant Olson. “Fortunately for the world and unfortunately for good investigative journalism, 60 Minutes got the future of clean energy technology wrong—very wrong. 60 Minutes should appoint a Public Editor to restore its damaged reputation.”

Take a stand with us and sign the petition to demand the appointment of a 60 Minutes Public Editor, which will be delivered to Jeff Fager, Chairman of CBS News and Executive Producer of 60 Minutes: http://act.forecastthefacts.org/sign/sixty_minutes_public_editor.

###

THE VIDEO:

From the YouTube video description:

Published on Jan 5, 2014

Despite billions invested by the U.S. government in so-called “Cleantech” energy, Washington and Silicon Valley have little to show for it. Lesley Stahl reports.

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194 thoughts on “Climate campaigners start to eat their own over ‘Cleantech Crash’

  1. “: by appointing a Public Editor, the program can see to it that this particular broadcast is investigated, ensure that all future reporting serves the public interest and deliver more accurate information about climate change to their audience.”

    Yes Commissar.

  2. “the increasing and severe threats of climate change makes the transition from fossil fuel pollution an economic necessity.”

    These boys are chooming!

  3. The 60 Minutes segment seemed pretty straightforward and factual, “fair and balanced” even, just what I expect from a quality show. Likewise, the reaction of “Forecast the Facts” is just what I expect from a whack-job organization.

  4. “Take a stand with us and sign the petition to demand the appointment of a 60 Minutes Public Editor, which will be delivered to Jeff Fager, Chairman of CBS News and Executive Producer of 60 Minutes.”

    Alles klar, Herr Kommisar!

  5. “Those who watched 60 Minutes this past Sunday might be under the impression that cleantech is dead, our hope for a much-needed green energy economy down the tubes,” said Forecast the Facts campaign director Brant Olson.
    Green energy economy = Theft from taxpayers

  6. 60 minutes….DON”T even think of giving in to these bullies. They are pushing a lousy product, and climate alarmism is their only sales gimmick. They should be thrown in jail for fraud.

  7. Message says video not available yet in my country (Australia).
    It’s one I’d like to see if that was possible, mods.
    Thanks Geoff.

  8. Ironic that a call for “accurate reporting” from a group calling themselves “Forecast The Facts” doesn’t actually contain anything that addresses the alleged errors (other than saying they’re “wrong, very wrong”, which tells us nothing)

  9. It should border on intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that production of gasoline from loblolly pulp pines would be difficult and end up with a product much more costly than the petroleum product it is supposed to replace. It ought to be obvious that the process uses a feed stock that can’t supply the need long term. That’s one of the reason that these types of processes are highly subsidized research oddities. If a billionaire wants to dump his money into these fiascos, fine. Our tax money and subsidies into obvious failures should never be used and anyone, including the guy Stahl interviewed, should be investigated for waste fraud and abuse.

    Most of these cleantech projects seem to be money from the federal government funneled to Obama donors. The whole thing seems ripe for corruption. I don’t see the fine folks at forcastethefacts lining up to pump their own money into this.

  10. Holy Smokes! Leslie Stahl and 60 Minutes actually did some investigative reporting???

    Well! We can’t allow them to forecastthefacts like that! We have to put a stop to that RIGHT NOW! Next thing ya know, the little people will start thinking they’ve been conned and bankrupted for nothing…. and, before they freeze to death in the vortex, they just might grab up their pitch forks and torches and really try to kill the green monster, if that happens!!

    /sarc

  11. The key components in “green technology” require rare earth elements. China strategically purchased and moved the technology to China.

    The Chinese have pressured companies to move their high technology manufacturing to China by withholding rare earth elements or in the case of high tech magnets used in wind turbines and electrical cars, China purchase the only US Company that manufactured the magnets and then moved the entire company (manufacturing machines included to China.)

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/china/101118/china-GM-magnets

    So should Americans be concerned about Chinese ownership of an American company like GM? For now, given that the stake is relatively small, it’s difficult to foresee any significant risk. But as a cautionary tale, consider another sale to China, in 1995, involving a GM subsidiary called Magnequench. ….. …..Because of their durability, small size and cheap cost, Neo magnets are critical to modern electronics. They are in multitudes of products, ranging from computers and smart phones to the Pentagon’s smart bombs. Without them, the revolution of small digital devices we now depend upon would have been impossible.

    Among the greatest challenges to making Neo magnets is obtaining the Neodymium, which is exceedingly difficult to extract from its ore. While Magnequench initially sourced its Neodymium from a mine in California, it just so happens that the bulk of the world’s Neodymium (as well as other rare earth elements) is found in China.

    The day after China’s deal to keep Magnequench in the U.S. expired … …the entire operation, along with all the equipment, disappeared,” according to a report by the Institute for the Analysis of Global Security (IAGS). China now has more than a hundred facilities producing Neo magnets, according to the report. The U.S. industry is essentially nonexistent. In order to produce smart bombs, the Pentagon now reportedly needs to source magnets from China.
    As China ramped up production of Neodymium and other key rare earths, they priced mines elsewhere out of the market. The United States — formerly the largest supplier of rare earths — ceased mining them in 2002. Now China produces 97 percent of the world’s supply. In recent years, Beijing has dramatically cut rare earth export quotas, in an effort to get companies that use these materials to relocate to China, and to bring their technology with them.

    http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/315543/economy/agricultureandmining/china-sets-rare-earth-export-quota-for-second-half

  12. Since the time I saw Leslie Stahl telling us how smart Al Gore was because he made sooo much money by putting his money where his mouth is (Climate trading Schemes) I’ve wanted to ask her if she also thought that Bernie Madoff was a genius.

  13. I’m with those who are shocked that 60 minutes is doing investigative reporting again. Suppose it is only right to give credit when its due.

  14. Either they (Forecast the Facts) really are that stupid, or they think that people at CBS are stupid enough to fall for it.

    Hey you bunch o’ meatballs at FtF… ja ja ja ja

    SNAP OUT OF IT.

  15. Gerard says:
    January 9, 2014 at 5:57 pm

    I also could not view the video in Aus – however I watched it the Huffington Post site

    Poor soul, having to resort to HP is truly an act of desperation.

  16. Bill H says:
    January 9, 2014 at 6:16 pm
    “60 Min is abandoning their liberal/democrat script? hmmmmmmmmmmmm very interesting.”

    Cleantech cronyism is passé and therefore fair game. Today, cronies get free money from the Fed for zero interest. Cronies have moved on. Top crony Uncle Warren moves Canadian oil with trains.

  17. William Astley says:
    January 9, 2014 at 6:10 pm
    “The key components in “green technology” require rare earth elements. China strategically purchased and moved the technology to China.”

    So passé. Rare Earth prices have been falling for 2 years now. Mountain pass mine in Cali reactivated, other projects ongoing. West has reacted on strategic threat. Not that expensive anyway.

  18. troe says:
    January 9, 2014 at 6:23 pm

    I’m with those who are shocked that 60 minutes is doing investigative reporting again. Suppose it is only right to give credit when its due.
    _________________________
    Can’t say exactly when it started, but in recent months, several instances have been brought to my attention when CBS actually did the right thing and performed as real journalists instead of propaganda flacks.

  19. The sad paradox created when US banks are allowed to “invest” in these industries and commodities without regulation and allowed to monetize them[ extract capital and spin what remains off to the highest bidder or bankruptcy] .The difference between the Chinese and US “Investment”? The Chinese are in it for the long haul, not a fast buck….. Which in my opinion is the whole ballyhoo over AGW in the first place. Scholars/scientists looking for the next stipend. The Emperor needs new clothes after all…

  20. I don’t feel that 60 Minutes dd a very thorough job on their research. For example,Leslie
    claimed that Tesla Motors,which received I believe around $400 million in govt loans,
    was a success story. But Tesla Motors did not need, and did not use that money – they
    paid the money back before they made one cent of profit. They accepted the money becase they feared they MIGHT have a need for same.

  21. Alan Robertson says:
    January 9, 2014 at 6:39 pm
    “Can’t say exactly when it started, but in recent months, several instances have been brought to my attention when CBS actually did the right thing and performed as real journalists instead of propaganda flacks.”

    Obama can be taken down now as he doesn’t stand for re-election; must be dismantled to make Hillary appear as saviour.

  22. “So should Americans be concerned about Chinese ownership of an American company like GM?”

    That would be excellent. Then the Chinese taxpayers could fund the next GM bailout.

  23. I’d be happy to serve as Public Editor.

    I’d envision recommending an investigation of CAP and FtF, of course…

  24. MarkG says:

    January 9, 2014 at 7:12 pm

    “So should Americans be concerned about Chinese ownership of an American company like GM?”

    That would be excellent. Then the Chinese taxpayers could fund the next GM bailout.

    —————

    Most folks don’t know that 22 billion, with a B, went to union funds.

    How much did the US and Canada spend on that GM thing in the end?

  25. Chinese taxpayers already funded the GM bailout by financing our debt.
    That said:
    GM got bailout, now ships jobs to China

    And despite the propaganda, the new plants aren’t just for selling cars in China but globally. My company has built more machines for GM China this past year than all previous years combined.

  26. This is why the government should get out of the climate cleantech businesses.

    Crony Crapitalism doesn’t work long term. When the government gets involved in picking winners and losers, everyone loses, eventually. Free-market economies are by far the best mechanism to allocate limited land, labor and capital to obtain the best products and technologies at the lowest cost possible.

    Most of these failed cleantech startups had to rely on taxpayer money to open their doors because the market already crunched the numbers and decided their business models were crap.

    Politicians’ calculus is simply: how many votes, how much campaign money, how many new bureaucrats can be created and how bigger can my budget grow on this project. Profit, loss and future return are irrelevant. Regardless of losses or how bad the business model is, politicians can simply tax or print more money to keep the charade going until the optics become so bad, they risk losing votes or risk a taxpayer revolt.

    That’s why the CAGW/cleantech scam is so politically elegant. The more catastrophic the politicians can make CAGW out to be, the more money they can bilk from taxpayers on CO2 taxes, regulations and cleantech projects/subsidies, while creating the illusion politicians are saving the planet from imminent disaster….

    The complete collapse of the solar/wind/biofuel sector proves the market has already written off CAGW as a lost cause, while the 17+ years of no global warming trend, combined with the huge discrepancies between CAGW model projections and empirical evidence, indicate the Scientific Method has written off CAGW, too.

    One can only hope the blowback from all this foolishness will be so spectacular, it will lead to some fundamental changes being made to the size and scope of governments around the world….or not…

    And so it goes….until freedom and reason are restored.

  27. NOTE: To anyone outside the US that wishes to view this video, just Google “Youtube + The Cleantech Crash” and you can watch it on Youtube.

  28. Col Mosby says:
    “For example,Leslie
    claimed that Tesla Motors,which received I believe around $400 million in govt loans,
    was a success story. But Tesla Motors did not need, and did not use that money – they
    paid the money back before they made one cent of profit”
    ————————————
    Tesla makes money off govt coerced Z EV credits paid by real auto mfr’s to Tesla.

  29. I think CBS and 60 minutes started reporting again instead of being an administration mouthpiece when they gave the go ahead on the Bengazi story. Someone at CBS saw through the administrations stories and cover ups and 60 minutes went with the story. When the FBI (with pressure from the administration) discredited the 60 minutes piece and basically forced them to repremand those involved with the story I think CBS woke up and started smelling the coffee…just my 2 cents worth.

  30. I almost signed this petition! (Gulp!) Well carbon credit trading has crashed, and Australia is waiting for the new senate to be appointed in July so they can repeal the carbon tax. I’d like to see that program too in Australia.

  31. I love it! Has anything survived a scathing report by 60 Minutes? If clean tech wasn’t dead already, people are reaching over to pull the plug on life support now.

  32. How about starting a petition in favor of 60 Minutes’ piece? It’s about time that show did something besides sing the Obamessiah’s praises!

  33. “””””…..Col Mosby says:

    January 9, 2014 at 7:00 pm

    Forecast the facts is one meaningless , dopey name……””””””

    They ain’t “facts” until they have happened; ergo, they can’t be forecast !!

  34. This represents part of the Obama Administration’s push on Climate Change. John Podesta is the founder of the Center for American Progress and has recently been brought in to White House as counselor to Obama. The Obama Administration clearly feels entitled to tell the media how to report things; a grave the media helped dig for its own self. You see, it’s insufficient that the Obama Administration has presided over five years of the most moribund economic recovery in three quarters of a century following a severe – but routine – recession. It’s also insufficient that the Obama Administration has presided over the first downgrade in US bond ratings in history; will end up damaging, if not destroying the healthcare industry; the banking industry; and real estate through foreclosures and EPA and HUD diktats. No, the job must be completed and they will not stand for whatever sniffling resistance may occasionally sprout from a former fawning media.

  35. I’m sorry folks, but I have to agree with FTF here. I mean, it’s never [snuff] been a better time [grunt] to be in the clean energy climate industry! You know, there’s tons of Climate Ca$h [squeallll] from so MANY sources: government/academia taxpayers, private industry [oinkkkk], international agencies [oink, oink!]. And we want MORE! [squeal, squeal!!] Carbon taxes! Wealth taxes! Environmental lawsuits! Public fundraising for The Cause ™!

    WE WANT TO FEED AT THE CLIMATE CA$H TROUGH!!! [oink,oink,oink,oink!!!!!!!]

    /sarc

  36. William Astley says:
    January 9, 2014 at 6:10 pm
    ” … The United States — formerly the largest supplier of rare earths — ceased mining them in 2002. Now China produces 97 percent of the world’s supply.”
    —-l

    For historical reasons, when using the 97% statement about anything, it is best to have accurate and trustworthy citations to back it up :)

  37. Joe Romm is only one person away from Maurice Strong in his business associations. His business connections can be followed through Business Week records.

  38. The RENIXX (stock composite of the world’s top 30 wind/solar/biofuel companies) has fallen from 1,200 in 2007 to around 150 in 2012…. 90%… poof…gone…

    I think that constitutes a “cleantech crash”, does it not? And these are the “best” of the lot….

    There has been a dead-cat bounce of the RENIXX, but once governments end all the stupid alt-en subsidies, loans, grants and tax breaks, so will almost all of these alt-en companies.

    Yes, some of the government funded alt-en companies may survive, but almost all them could have been financed by the private sector without the need to waste $100’s of billions of taxpayer money.

  39. Fact is, there is no global warming and climate change is made up by liberal idiots. Smoke another bowl until your next imagined issue .

  40. Ah yes, the want a propaganda minister. Goebbels would be proud, probably Stalin too.

    What most people don’t even recognize is that we are in the mist of another civil war for the heart and soul of the country. On the left you have the progressive socialist and on the right you have the defenders of the Constitution, the Tea Party, et al. While there has yet to be bullets flying, people have died. Currently, this is being fought in the halls of Congress, the pages of the media, and our educational system. That doesn’t meant that all out bloodshed won’t occur. We hope that it does not.

    As posted before, “The truth is that there is no compromise possible between Liberty and Tyranny. We have irreconcilable differences with the Progressives, and every attempt to compromise with them, always results in an incremental loss of our Liberty, not to mention our income. Perhaps it is time for a divorce.” – Dave Hunter –

    The progressives only need time. Every compromise inches the philosophy of running the country in their direction. Would they like to have it happen instantaneously, of course they would, but they are willing to take as long as it takes, as long as it is always moving in the direction they want it too.

    It is going to take some drastic actions to right this country. There is now talk of a Article V Convention of the States. It is very possible that would help a lot. We have lost our way in how the country is supposed to be governed. BHO was right, we need fundamental change. Just not the change he was referring to. We need the government to return to being a responsible shepherd of the country and it treasury. We need to return a balance of power to between the three sections of government. We need the members of Congress to remember they work for us and that being a member of Congress is not a career.

  41. rogerthesurf says:
    January 9, 2014 at 9:38 pm
    The ironic thing about taxpayer subsidies of any kind is that overall they decrease employment not create it! Hasn’t anyone in the US read Milton Friedman lately?
    Cheers
    Roger

    http://www.thedemiseofchristchurch.com

    Roger,
    Followed your link and read the Agenda 21 based exam paper ireproduced there. A chilling example of effective propaganda regurgitated by the hapless student! They unabashedly used a quote from Paul and Anne Ehrlich within the exam, as the core of an essay question!
    Very disturbing…
    MtK

  42. SAMURAI says:
    January 9, 2014 at 7:30 pm
    This is why the government should get out of the climate cleantech businesses.
    Crony Crapitalism doesn’t work long term. When the government gets involved in picking winners and losers, everyone loses, eventually. Free-market economies are by far the best mechanism to allocate limited land, labor and capital to obtain the best products and technologies at the lowest cost possible.

    SAMURAI,
    I agree with your assertions… but take exception to the term “Crony Capitalism”. The government subsidies, loans, grants, etc. stolen from the citizens and directed to pie-in-the-sky ‘green’ technology companies selected by socialist bureaucrats based on how much money the tech startup can funnel back into the socialist campaign funds and NGOs has nothing to do with capitalism. This crap is Crony Socialism, plain and simple.
    MtK

  43. William Astley says:
    January 9, 2014 at 6:10 pm
    S’truth! Good summary of China cornering the market on rare earths and RE magnet technology. For the last ten years or so, this developing concern has been repeatedly communicated up from various defense related programs to the administrations in office, only to fall on deaf ears.

    Today, we have this: http://www.cnbc.com/id/101309177
    US put China-made parts in F-35 fighter program
    Published: Friday, 3 Jan 2014 | 4:49 PM ET

  44. David– Yes, invoking Article V of the Constitution to establish new Constitutional Amendments passed by 66% of the States is starting to look like the only option remaining to fix our broken system.

    I’d love to see States pass the following Amendments:

    1) Term Limits: Senators 2 terms, Congressmen 3 terms.
    2) Balanced Budget Amendment (BBA)
    3) Rescind the 16th Amendment- (eliminate all federal income/withholding/corporate taxes and replacing them with a flat 15% (or whatever is required to meet the BBA) federal consumption tax with no tax breaks. The 80,000-page tax code goes in the trash.)
    4) Rescind the 17th Amendment (State Legislatures to appoint Senators as originally established).
    5) Rescind the 13th Amendment (would end the Federal Reserve).

    Could you imagine the howls from DC that would occur if the states actually passed ANY of these? LOL!

    That alone would be worth the price of admission.

  45. Kudos to 60 Minutes for finally getting the truth out about Clean Tech. What’s pathetic is that Clean Tech’s demise was known from the beginning to everyone that understood both technology and finance/economic.

  46. Have to say that my sympathies are entirely with the people trying to come up with a new energy technology. Eventually we will run out of even shale gas, and it will be good to have some actual working renewable energy source on hand for the day. And why shouldn’t the gov support the research, just as it supports research in other areas in the public interest? Lets hope someone is looking into thorium nuclear as part of the package.

  47. Mac the Knife–

    Please note I wrote, Crony “CRAPitalism” not capitalism, which includes all corporate welfare: rules/regulations/mandates, tax breaks, bailouts, bank guarantees, federal loans, subsidies, etc., used by the industrial/banking elites to minimize competition.

    I agree that none of these scams are elements of a free-market economy.

    I don’t even like the term Capitalism as it is a Marxist term designed to denigrate the free-market system. Using the term “free-market” drives leftists crazy, which is why I prefer it.

  48. Such criticism of this balanced 60 minutes segment is a perfect example of the “Dramagreens” modus operandi.

  49. Said above,,, I like the idea of a Public Editor. That Public Editor should be me. :-)
    “Nobody shaparones the shaparone, that why I am so right for this job.”

    Who said it?

  50. Joanna says:

    And why shouldn’t the gov support the research, just as it supports research in other areas in the public interest? >/blockquote>

    People can certainly argue against government funded research. Personally, I don’t have a problem with providing small amounts of catalyst funding – especially for technologies that will rely on many stepping stones over a very long period of time.

    But there’s no way the government should be funding or legislating revenues for infrastructure build-outs of technologies that aren’t mature enough to survive on their own. I certainly don’t mind tax breaks in order to juice investor interest, but a company must be profitable on it’s own for a tax break to even matter.

  51. Next year they’ll be covering the clean tech boom ! That’s the media always sensationalizing stories…

  52. george e. smith says: January 9, 2014 at 8:36 pm They ain’t “facts” until they have happened; ergo, they can’t be forecast !!

    ‘Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past.’

  53. What’s the issue? Give unconditional permission to those involved in geen energy business to print their own greenbacks, a simple legislative action for free. The product would be absolutely green with no need to bother with either technology or the market any more while each stakeholder could have his own private jet and it would not cost the taxpayer a dime. Oh, wait.

  54. Thank you Anthony for publishing these pearls.

    Things are looking brighter every day. The media is starting to pick the low hanging fruit and the AGW intelligentsia resorts into a public call for kick-crying session in front of the juice producer.

    I wouldn’t personally bet on Anna Zuccaro’s horse, but perhaps she used AGW-logic to identify the desired session parameters and hockey-stick models to predict the outcome.

  55. AndyG55 says:
    January 10, 2014 at 12:26 am

    100 billion.. now who has got all that money….
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    International Monetary Fund Convergence, Interdependence, and Divergence Finance & Development, September 2012, Vol. 49, No. 3

    New convergence and strengthened interdependence coincide with a third trend, relating to income distribution. In many countries the distribution of income has become more unequal, and the top earners’ share of income in particular has risen dramatically. In the United States the share of the top 1 percent has close to tripled over the past three decades, now accounting for about 20 percent of total U.S. income (Alvaredo and others, 2012).

    Money has been sucked out of the pockets of the poor and middle class and diverted to the pockets of the rich.

    This is the true aim of “Progressives” Ever heard of a politician leaving office poorer than when he entered?

  56. Wobble: I agree with you that the gov should not be supporting business development of immature and inefficient technologies. No more wind turbines that can’t pay their own way. But I do think it should support research, and not on the understanding that it must be immediately successful…well you know how research often isn’t. I thought that all those remarks on 60 minutes about expensive flops showed a pretty naive understanding of how research works. Wonder how much time and money George Mitchell put in to developing fracking technology? Did not happen over night I bet. And not all researchers have deep enough pockets to develop their ideas into maturity without support.

  57. The CBS News magazine “60 Minutes” report was very educational. Let’s hope the Americans manage to avoid slipping further into administrative command economy.

    Having said that, last time it was tested in a human civilization for real, the neighboring countries obtained an endless source of cheap, but undesirable cars and sink buckets. This is very similar except someone is willing to pay for the production facilities.

    The Chinese can hug their own trees by turning them into oil etc. The USA can get energy directly from the ground via the Keystone Pipeline, by constructing new generation nuclear plants powered with thorium etc.

  58. “Fortunately, 60 Minutes can still set the record straight: by appointing a Public Editor, the program can see to it that this particular broadcast is investigated, ensure that all future reporting serves the public interest and deliver more accurate information about climate change to their audience.”

    This reminds me of McCarthyism. Get them in front of the House Committee on Un-American Activities and so they can confess & repent or face ostracism!

    “All future reporting serves the public interest”! Or just the information that they approve of.

  59. Good to see the tides finally turning: Now the green loonies find themselves protesting against what they see as misleading media coverage – something folks on other side of the argument have had to do for decades.

  60. Joanna says: @ January 10, 2014 at 1:02 am

    … Wonder how much time and money George Mitchell put in to developing fracking technology? Did not happen over night I bet….
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Bad choice.

    Shooters – A “Fracking” History
    Modern hydraulic fracturing technology can trace its roots to April 25, 1865, when Civil War veteran Col. Edward A. L. Roberts received the first of his many patents for an “exploding torpedo.”

    …Civil War veteran Col. Edward A.L. Roberts fought bravely with a New Jersey Regiment at the bloody 1862 battle of Fredericksburg, Virginia…

    the Virginia battlefield observation gave him an idea that would evolve into what he described as “superincumbent fluid tamping.”

    Just a few years later his revolutionary oilfield invention will greatly increase production of America’s early petroleum industry. Roberts received the first of his many patents for an “Improvement in Exploding Torpedoes in Artesian Wells” on April 25, 1865.

    Torpedoes filled with gunpowder (later nitroglycerin) were lowered into wells and ignited by a weight dropped along a suspension wire onto a percussion cap.

    Roberts was awarded U.S. Patent (No. 59,936) in November 1866 for what would become known as the Roberts Torpedo. The new technology would revolutionize the young oil and natural gas industry by vastly increasing production from individual wells….

    Unless you include the cost of the War Between the States (Civil War to you yanks) the government did not pay one red cent and Roberts financed the discovery and development out of his own pocket.

    To continue:

    …Roberts died a wealthy man on March 25, 1881, in Titusville. His heirs sold Roberts Petroleum Torpedo Company to its employees…

    …the Otto Cupler Torpedo Company split off and produced its own nitroglycerin in plants near Titusville until the last plant exploded in 1978. Tallini’s company continued using liquid nitroglycerin until 1989 – when the last of the nitroglycerine supplier’s plant exploded in Moosic, Pennsylvania.

    Today, Tallini and Otto Cupler Torpedo Company continue shooting wells, but with modern explosives and rigorous safety procedures. With the advent of hydraulic and other fracking technology, shaped-charge jet perforation has become common, in which a cone-shaped charge penetrates the wells casing and cement at high velocity.

    Tallini’s historic company maintains a museum on Dottyville Road in East Titusville – preserving for future generations remarkable artifacts and documents from more than 100 years of nitroglycerin in the oilfields….

    f Hydraulic Fracturing is covered in the rest of the article.

    This is a good article to bookmark BTW.

  61. I’m all for using my own money for self investment. If you can install Solar panels yourself for $1/wh. Solar vacuum tubes to heat your hot water in brighter days for $350, Glaze walls on the the sunny side of your house to provide warm air space heating for those bright cold sunny mornings and buy a fire sale electric car and collect spare insulation like a rag ‘n bone man.. Total no-brainer – DO IT! Nobody needs to claim sums off the Carbonazis to make this pay. You will be seriously better off in the long run by no small margin.

    The irony is those who are claiming off these schemes. The sums that get paid out go too high. Gov’ts start to put the squeeze on.. This is what you all want!

    [Dupe? Mod]

  62. I’m all for using my own money for self investment. If you can install Solar panels yourself for 1 USD per wh. Solar vacuum tubes to heat your hot water in brighter days for 350 USD, Glaze walls on the the sunny side of your house to provide warm air space heating for those bright cold sunny mornings and buy a fire sale electric car and collect spare insulation like a rag ‘n bone man.. Total no-brainer – DO IT! Nobody needs to claim sums off the Carbonazis to make this pay. You will be seriously better off in the long run by no small margin.

    The irony is those who are claiming off these schemes. The sums that get paid out go too high. Gov’ts start to put the squeeze on.. This is what you all want!

  63. Gail Combs says:
    January 10, 2014 at 12:49 am

    “Money has been sucked out of the pockets of the poor and middle class and diverted to the pockets of the rich.”

    ==================
    Federal Reserve’s: insane policies of artificially low interest rates, QEternity, money printing, mortgaged backed security purchases, combined with government: bailouts, subsidies, bank guarantees and over regulation have totally distorted the market and have created real estate, stock market and bond bubbles.

    These market distortions force money away from production/new technologies/capital investments and into speculative stock market, real estate and bond bubbles.

    Good paying/high-skilled manufacturing jobs are destroyed and/or never created, which hurts the poor and middle classes. The elites in the financial sector get rich by moving electrons around and business elites get rich on their stock options from artificially inflated stock prices.

    The low interest rates also cause the middle class and poor to take on too much debt and live beyond their means. The money printing and low interest rates exacerbate the problem by devaluing the currency and causing inflation, so what little money the poor/middle do make, buys less and less….

    It’s a house of cards that cannot last much longer. It’s like a zombie economy.

  64. Friends:

    I write to offer a warning and not to get involved in ‘private grief’.

    Several posters have blamed effects of croney capitalism on “socialism”.

    The reported problems all derive from faults in the strange system of US government.
    In effect, rich corporates invest money on campaigns to get individual politicians elected then expect the elected politicians to repay their investment with interest.

    This causes US government to allocate income from tax revenue to ‘subsidise’ interests which payed at election times with a view to their obtaining subsidies.

    Gail Combs provides a succinct and clear report of one inevitable outcome of this in her post at January 10, 2014 at 12:49 am

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/09/climate-campaigners-start-to-eat-their-own-over-cleantech-crash/#comment-1531235

    The problem is the US political system which allows – indeed, encourages – unlimited funding of political campaigns. Pretending that this obvious and real problem is something else – be it “socialism” or anything else – is excusing failure to address that problem by ‘turning a blind eye’ to it.

    Incidentally, those in this thread who blame “socialism” all display appalling ignorance of what socialism is, but that is not important. The important point is that they are deflecting people from considering the clear and real problem.

    That clear and real problem is obvious to those of us who view the US from the outside. Indeed, the fact that it is obvious to those observing the US system from outside is why – as reported in the “60 minutes” video – Chinese corporations find it so easy to benefit from US government subsidies to businesses.

    Richard

  65. William Astley wrote, “The key components in “green technology” require rare earth elements. China strategically purchased and moved the technology to China.”

    How the Great Rare-Earth Metals Crisis Vanished

    China’s attempt to control the market for materials essential to the tech industry is turning to dust.

    There was a time, not so long ago, when the world feared China was going to use its dominance of the global rare-earth-element industry to crush Western economies and militaries in a strategic vise. Those were the days. Recent developments highlight how wrong those alarmist predictions were.

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303848104579308252845415022

  66. The effects of crony capitalism lie entirely in the hands of the cronies.

    It is not ‘socialism’, which is the redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor, achieved through the nationalisation of the means of production.

    It is poor quality capitalism, since individuals, individual financial organisations and crony entrepreneurs/managers took private decisions using privately held capital to allocate capital incorrectly, inefficiently and incompetently.

    Traditional views of capitalism consider such events to be part of the market correction process, leaving better investors wealthier and poorer investors poorer.

    The only problem arises if the means of exchange itself, aka financial capital, becomes controlled by cartels, monopolies etc etc.

    We all know how capitalism views cartels and monopolies.

    Perhaps we should ask whether cartels and monopolies in financial services should be dealt with using anti-trust legislation??

    I have argued thus as I have seen little evidence to see Governments dominate the investment landscape in the past 15 years.

  67. This would be the same @forecastfacts that tweeted an EF1 tornado in Florida as proof of #ClimateChanged or thinking cigarette style warnings on gas pumps are ‘awesome’ (I see Anthony spotted this too)
    “@wattsupwiththat: @ForecastFacts Brad Johnson should wear a warning on his t-shirt – I’m paid by Soros to make up this crap – keep 10 feet back.”

  68. I have only two changes which I would like to see.
    1. Repeal all federal taxes and institute a fair tax. Most likely near 24% to cover our bills and stop borrowing money.
    2. Change all election laws to allow only people to give money to a campaign only if they can vote for the candidate or items on the ballot otherwise NO donation or spending on any election. Corporations cannot vote therefore they cannot donate to a candidate.
    If Bill Gates wants to give Hillary $100M that’s okay but not Microsoft. It’s his money. It’s not tax deductible and the donor, amount and purpose must be declared with the FEC and published before one dime is spent.
    Only people can vote.

  69. Richard-san:

    It’s not the free market that corrupts government, it’s government that corrupts the free market and morphs it into a tangled of web of push and pull.

    The free-market is perfectly capable of efficiently and effectively allocating land/labor/capital without the “help” of government. When governments overregulate, overtax, subsidize, intervene, bailout and control business, land/labor/capital are malinvested, operating costs soar, profits fall, capital investment funds dry up, competition is reduced, businesses become uncompetitive, jobs/entire industries destroyed and/or are driven out of the country.

    Businesses and people just want to be left alone. Individuals are perfectly capable of reaching mutually beneficial agreements without government intervention.

  70. SAMURAI says: @ January 10, 2014 at 5:36 am

    Richard-san:

    It’s not the free market that corrupts government, it’s government that corrupts the free market and morphs it into a tangled of web of push and pull….
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The first problem is we do not enforce anti-trust laws and the second problem is fiat currency.

    A country that has a printed on the spot fiat currency does not have capitalism since by definition capitalism is reinvesting YOUR WEALTH to produce more wealth. Instead with a fiat currency the wealth is stolen from the citizenry at large and the ‘More Wealth’ produced goes into the pockets of the thieves. Net result is the poor and middle class finance the schemes of the rich and accrue no benefit but instead become poorer.

    Worse if you invest your own money you are careful with your investment. If the money is stolen you don’t ruddy well care!

    Sen. Daniel Webster, during the debate over the reauthorization of the Second National Bank of the U.S. in 1832, summed it up:

    A disordered currency is one of the greatest of evils. It wars against industry, frugality, and economy. And it fosters the evil spirits of extravagance and speculation. Of all the contrivances for cheating the laboring classes of mankind, none has been more effectual than that which deludes them with paper money. This is one of the most effectual of inventions to fertilize the rich man’s field by the sweat of the poor man’s brow. Ordinary tyranny, oppression, excessive taxation: These bear lightly the happiness of the mass of the community, compared with fraudulent currencies and robberies committed with depreciated paper.”

  71. Oh, I should also mention that originally in the USA corporations only had a life of twenty years….

  72. Rhys-San:

    Under free-market economies, incompetent/unprofitable companies go out of business and their land/labor/capital are reallocated to more comment/profitable companies.

    Cartels and monopolies are directly or indirectly formed through government intervention, not by free-markets. Any monopolies like US Steel and Standard Oil were a net benefit to consumers with vastly falling prices. “Monopoly” busting is usually called for by uncompetitive companies, not consumers…

    Anti-trust laws are insane. If prices are too low, it’s predatory pricing, if prices are too similar, it’s “price fixing” and if “too high” it’s price gouging…. Just let the market determine price discovery.

  73. SAMURAI:

    I understand your post at January 10, 2014 at 5:36 am

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/09/climate-campaigners-start-to-eat-their-own-over-cleantech-crash/#comment-1531447

    to be a reply to my post at January 10, 2014 at 4:02 am

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/09/climate-campaigners-start-to-eat-their-own-over-cleantech-crash/#comment-1531380

    In my post I wrote

    The reported problems all derive from faults in the strange system of US government.
    In effect, rich corporates invest money on campaigns to get individual politicians elected then expect the elected politicians to repay their investment with interest.

    This causes US government to allocate income from tax revenue to ‘subsidise’ interests which payed at election times with a view to their obtaining subsidies.

    Your reply says

    Businesses and people just want to be left alone. Individuals are perfectly capable of reaching mutually beneficial agreements without government intervention.

    Sorry, but that is patently untrue. Businesses and people do NOT “want to be left alone” unless that benefits them.

    Businesses and people want maximum benefit for themselves. Indeed, capitalism relies on this truism.

    Businesses exist to make profits for their owners. So, companies and corporations will spend money on political campaigns which result in their maximising their profits by gaining subsidies for their businesses from government. And they do. But they would not spend that money if they did not want the government intervention.

    Many – probably most – countries operate forms of corruption. Croney capitalism is a form of corruption which exists in countries where businesses gain a good return from investment in political campaigns. And the US is an extreme example of a country where a good return is obtained from investment in political campaigns.

    Similarly, many people want government benefits; e.g. financial support when unemployed or ill, etc.. They want government to provide such benefits and not to leave them alone.

    A theory is fine unless it is falsified by observations.

    Richard

  74. Gail Combs-San:

    Yes, I agree that fiat currencies never work.

    All countries need to return to a gold/silver standard or governments will always print themselves into oblivion.

    History is very clear in this.

  75. I CR!NGE when I see trees being ground up for fuel when we can just pump it out of the ground and refine it, or mine coal and use it. That is a bad use of wood.

  76. I thought “Forecast the Facts” was supposed to be about economically persecuting TV weathermen, under the guise of promoting accurate communication about the science of ‘global warming’.

    60 Minutes doesn’t have a weatherman, and the story in question wasn’t about the science of ‘global warming.’ It was about government subsidies to failed industries favored by the left. When did ‘Forecast the Facts’ become “Save the Subsidies”, and howcome they didn’t change their name when they did?

    Rhetorical questions, of course. They’ve always been about directing taxpayer dollars and government authority to their friends. Climate doesn’t have anything to do with it.

  77. Washington, DC — On January 6th, Forecast the Facts started a petition entitled “60 MINUTES: APPOINT A PUBLIC EDITOR” and made false accusations regarding the THE 60 MINUTES expose of our nation’s clean energy economy. The petition failed to mention that the clean energy industry has actually been booming only because of the billions of dollars thrown away—nay thrown into giant pollution causing bonfires—and that the increasing and severe threats of economic collapse caused by the inevitable implosion of the American dollar makes the transition from cheap oil and gasoline to so-called “cleantech” an economic catastrophe.

    Not only did the “60 MINUTES: APPOINT A PUBLIC EDITOR” petition mislead 17,000 naïve left-wing signatories, it threatened our ability to expose the global warmists’ hysteria for what it is.

    Fortunately, Forecast the Facts can still set the record straight: by appointing a Public Editor, the petition organization can see to it that this particular petition is investigated, ensure that all future petitions serve the public interest and deliver more accurate information about climate warmist hysteria to their audience.

    “Those who read THE 60 MINUTES: APPOINT A PUBLIC EDITOR petition this past Monday might be under the impression that warmist hysteria is alive and kicking, our hope for a much-needed sensible oil based energy economy down the tubes,” said Petition the Facts campaign director Brandon Solitary. “Fortunately for the world and unfortunately for hysterical petition creators, 60 MINUTES got the future of clean energy technology absolutely right. Forecast the Facts should appoint a Public Editor in an attempt to create a heretofore nonexistent reputation.”

    Take a stand with us and sign the petition to demand the appointment of a Forecast the Facts: Public Petition Editor, which will be delivered to Brant Olson, campaign director of Forecast the Facts: http://lichmyachingtechtticals.org/sign/forecast_facts_petition_editor.

  78. William Astley says January 9, 2014 at 6:10 pm

    Because of their durability, small size and cheap cost, Neo magnets are critical to modern electronics. They are in multitudes of products, ranging from computers and smart phones

    Where are they used in smart phones, William?

    The ‘speakers’ maybe?

    .

  79. @ richardscourtney says: January 10, 2014 at 4:02 am

    You’re right. In my experience the middlemen make all the difference in semantics. Especially if they are wealthy and experienced enough, like the Chinese, to bet on all running horses. What would be a more suitable term to describe the current state of US affairs?

    The CBS News report implied that the Chinese now plan and guide production and investment with US tax-payer funded assets. This is why I suggested here the term ‘administrative command economy’, but ‘crony command economy’ may also work.

    I wonder if Richard Nixon ever realized where he was leading his own nation when he established EPA and redirected NASA. Both presumably influenced by Moynihan’s ideas at the time, such as, http://www.nixonlibrary.gov/virtuallibrary/documents/jul10/56.pdf.

  80. re: richardscourtney says January 10, 2014 at 6:16 am et al and

    A theory is fine unless it is falsified by observations.

    Ask Bill Gates about the ‘lobbying’ (pols) and ‘meddling’ (intimidation by govt) thing; he learned the hard way to ‘give until it hurts’. All he wanted was to be (effectively) left alone until that first (figurative) ‘knock on the door’ and now he lobbies -er- ‘buys politicians’ too … in the vein of paying ‘protection money’ to be left alone …

    http://articles.latimes.com/2011/apr/05/opinion/la-oe-kinsley-column-microsoft-20110405

    Fair use excerpt per copyright act law for the purposes of discussion:

    For many years before the lawsuit, Microsoft had virtually no Washington “presence.” It had a large office in the suburbs, mainly concerned with selling software to the government. Bill Gates resisted the notion that a software company needed to hire a lot of lobbyists and lawyers. He didn’t want anything special from the government, except the freedom to build and sell software. If the government would leave him alone, he would leave the government alone.

    Unless I read your post incorrectly, Richard.

    .

  81. The broadcast failed to mention that the clean energy industry has actually been booming,….

    So has everything else. LOL

    Roger Pielke Jr – 9 July 2013
    “Clean Energy Stagnation

    Growth in Renewables Outpaced by Fossil Fuels

    The world was moving faster towards reducing its reliance on carbon intensive energy consumption in the 1970s and 1980s than in the past several decades. In fact, over the past 20 years there has been little if any progress in expanding the share of carbon-free energy in the global mix. Despite the rhetoric around the rise of renewable energy, the data tells a far different story……

    The figure above shows the proportion of global energy consumption that comes from carbon-free sources. These sources include nuclear, hydro, solar, wind, geothermal, and biomass……

    However, since 1999 the proportion of carbon-free energy in the global mix has dropped slightly…….”

    http://thebreakthrough.org/index.php/voices/roger-pielke-jr/clean-energy-stagnation/

  82. Gail Combs says January 10, 2014 at 5:57 am

    The first problem is we do not enforce anti-trust laws …

    Ever? Very strange claim to make … maybe you mean “today”? Within your lifetime the Bell (telephone) system (remember them?) was broken up; IBM and Microsoft both ‘settled’ rather than face break-ups or other mandated ‘solutions’.

    .

  83. richardscourtney says January 10, 2014 at 4:02 am

    That clear and real problem is obvious to those of us who view the US from the outside.

    AND your ‘method of observation’ is??? Our ‘press’? Poor method of observation, if so … there are a LOT of subtleties from ‘local talent’ you are probably missing if you are not on/within these shores … never participated in the politics, sat in on business meetings, etc.

    .

  84. Gunga Din says January 10, 2014 at 7:22 am

    A “Public Editor”? Do they mean a “Global Warming” editor like Wikipedia’s?

    “Political Officer”, a/k/a Pol. Commissar …

    Say it like it is (don’t mince words): “an enforcer of the party line. ”

    .

  85. Gail Combs says January 10, 2014 at 12:49 am

    Money has been sucked out of the pockets of the poor

    Not at the national scale; the poor do not pay taxes. (This has been noted to be a repeated meme without basis.)

    “43% pay no federal income taxes”

    http://money.cnn.com/2013/08/29/pf/taxes/who-doesnt-pay-federal-income-taxes/

    “Is it true that only 53 percent of Americans pay income tax?”

    http://money.howstuffworks.com/only-53-percent-pay-income-tax.htm

  86. _Jim says:

    January 10, 2014 at 7:39 am.

    The poor pay higher electric bills, food bills, gasoline prices etc. Gail is correct. Her statement did not limit the “money” to taxes.

  87. The warmists want to control everything – via a Public Editor at first. Of course the Public Editor should be a member of a progressive party, ideally a socialist party, and preferably a national one as well. Germany in 1930s comes to mind.

  88. _Jim:

    re your post at January 10, 2014 at 7:25 am which quotes me out of context and adds emphasis which I did not provide.

    I don’t discuss politics in a foreign land.
    Please read my post which you comment. This jumps to it

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/09/climate-campaigners-start-to-eat-their-own-over-cleantech-crash/#comment-1531380

    And the single “obvious” point is – as I said and the video reports – being used by Chinese businesses.

    If I am wrong on anything then I would like to know the correct information. A suggestion that I must be wrong because only an American can be right is not helpful.

    Richard

  89. re: mkelly says January 10, 2014 at 7:43 am

    Note: “Not at the national scale”. Local taxes did not pay the subsidies on these boondoggle greentech projects paid for by the DOE.

    Did those finer points escape your attention?

    Gail continues to show raw ‘socialist’ leanings that only FDR-sized ‘seize the wealth’ programs would satiate …

    .

  90. richardscourtney says January 10, 2014 at 7:48 am

    If I am wrong on anything then I would like to know the correct information.

    I am willing to oblige.

    .

  91. re: richardscourtney says January 10, 2014 at 7:56 am

    (1)

    Businesses exist to make profits for their owners. So, companies and corporations will spend money on political campaigns which result in their maximising their profits by gaining subsidies for their businesses from government. [BOLDING by _Jim for emphasis]

    (2) Re-read the post at:

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/09/climate-campaigners-start-to-eat-their-own-over-cleantech-crash/#comment-1531519

    (3) QED; above proposition (1) regarding “Business … from government” is invalidated.

    (4) More to the point: it is because of the thieves in government one must ‘lawyer up’ and hire lobbyists against the pilfering vultures in congress and various high-level federal executive branch agencies and departments.

    .

  92. From what _Jim says at January 10, 2014 at 7:48 am we learn that Gail Combs is a Socialist.
    Or rather has “raw ‘socialist’ leanings”.
    That may come as a surprise to her.

  93. What the heck is a ‘Public Editor’? Would that be a Politiburo representative to keep the comrads in line?

  94. re: M Courtney says January 10, 2014 at 8:14 am
    ” From what _Jim says at January 10, 2014 at 7:48 am we learn that Gail Combs is a Socialist.”

    How would S. McIntyre put it? “A bridge too far.” Leanings or tendencies are one thing, being fully avowed is another although functionally there may be little difference.

    .

  95. Chuck Nolan says January 10, 2014 at 5:29 am

    2. Change all election laws … Corporations cannot vote therefore they cannot donate to a candidate.
    If Bill Gates wants to give Hillary $100M that’s okay but not Microsoft.

    How about Citizens United? You know, that ‘united group of citizens’ who incorporated for purposes of organization?

    .http://www.citizensunited.org/

    Who We Are
    Citizens United is an organization dedicated to restoring our government to citizens’ control. Through a combination of education, advocacy, and grass roots organization, Citizens United seeks to reassert the traditional American values of limited government, freedom of enterprise, strong families, and national sovereignty and security. Citizens United’s goal is to restore the founding fathers’ vision of a free nation, guided by the honesty, common sense, and good will of its citizens.

  96. This was all pioneered by President Jimmy Carter and the Synthetic Fuels Corporation, decades ago. The government can never ever go into business and make it work, because the government does not have any entrepreneurs. The energy business moves very fast with sweeping changes, and the Saudi’s remain tremendously powerful, able to alter the price of oil any time they want to. The word “cost” apparently means nothing to Obummer, whereas it is everything to anyone who ever had to stay within a budget to produce a profitable venture.

    Will this ever change? Can anyone name one single commercial technology developed by any government anywhere, ever? The nuclear industry is not such an example, the Manhattan Project produce a weapon, not a product, not a technology.

  97. _Jim says:

    January 10, 2014 at 7:48 am

    Gail Combs says January 10, 2014 at 12:49 am

    Money has been sucked out of the pockets of the poor

    Jim there is the quote you used of Gail’s. There is no mention of taxes or national scale. From the quote you used your limiting it to taxes was off mark. And I never mentioned local taxes. You set up straw men to strike not what is said.

    If you think the poor don’t pay higher electric, food or gasoline prices because of the bad policies set forth by government then say so.

  98. M Courtney says:
    January 10, 2014 at 8:14 am

    From what _Jim says at January 10, 2014 at 7:48 am we learn that Gail Combs is a Socialist.
    Or rather has “raw ‘socialist’ leanings”.
    That may come as a surprise to her.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    You bet since I am a die hard capitalist. But my definition and _jim’s are vastly different:

    Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.

    The recognition of individual rights entails the banishment of physical force from human relationships: basically, rights can be violated only by means of force. In a capitalist society, no man or group may initiate the use of physical force against others. The only function of the government, in such a society, is the task of protecting man’s rights, i.e., the task of protecting him from physical force; the government acts as the agent of man’s right of self-defense, and may use force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use; thus the government is the means of placing the retaliatory use of force under objective control. ~ Ayn Rand

    I mentioned Anti-trust laws only because the acquiring of a monopoly also means the acquiring of large amounts of political and economic power. That power allows steamrolling over the rights of the individual. With a monopoly/monopsony there is no free market and there is no fair bargaining as the below illustration shows.

    If the government gets the heck out of the way then the market can effectively deal with the problem via niche markets however USDA/FDA red tape and government subsidies has killed that option in the example below.

    As far as anti trust laws I was referring to this from the Congressional Record from almost fourteen years ago:

    Congressional Record Volume 146, Number 36 (Tuesday, March 28, 2000)]
    [Senate]
    [Pages S1807-S1809]
    …The farm share of profit in the food system has been declining for over 20 years. From 1994 to 1998, consumer prices have increased 3 percent while the prices paid to farmers for their products has plunged 36 percent. Likewise, the impact of price disparity is reinforced by reports of record profits among agribusinesses at the same time producers are suffering an economic depression.

    … In the past decade and a half, an explosion of mergers, acquisitions, and anti-competitive practices has raised concentration in American agriculture to record levels.
    The top four pork packers have increased their market share from 36 percent to 57 percent. In fact, the world’s largest pork producer and processor is getting bigger. Smithfield Foods is buying the Farmland Industries plant in Dubuque, Iowa. This deal should be complete by mid-May.

    The top four beef packers have expanded their market share from 32 percent to 80 percent. The top four flour millers have increased their market share from 40 percent to 62 percent.
    [[Page S1809]]

    The market share of the top four soybean crushers has jumped from 54 percent to 80 percent.

    The top four turkey processors now control 42 percent of production. Forty-nine percent of all chicken broilers are now slaughtered by the four largest firms. The top four firms control 67 percent of ethanol production.
    The top four sheep, poultry, wet corn, and dry corn processors now control 73 percent, 55 percent, 74 percent, and 57 percent of the market, respectively.

    The four largest grain buyers control nearly 40 percent of elevator facilities.

    By conventional measures, none of these markets are really competitive. According to the economic literature, markets are no longer competitive if the top four firms control over 40 percent. In all the markets I just listed, the market share of the top four firms is 40 percent or more. So there really is no effective competition in these processing markets.

    But now, with this explosion of mergers, acquisitions, joint ventures, marketing agreements, and anticompetitive behavior by the largest firms, these and other commodity markets are becoming more and more concentrated by the day.

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CREC-2000-03-28/html/CREC-2000-03-28-pt1-PgS1807-2.htm

  99. “Not only did the “Cleantech Crash” segment mislead viewers, it threatened our ability to confront the global warming crisis.”

    “ensure that all future reporting serves the public interest and deliver more accurate information about climate change to their audience”

    OK, I get it. This is what they want:
    1. Interpret record cold waves from Arctic origin air and the “Polar Vortex” in a way that makes people think air masses and weather systems are supposed to stay put and the weather systems everywhere are supposed to remain close to the geographical area bounded by their origin, causing weather to stay the same all the time. When that doesn’t happen, its man made climate change/extreme weather.

    2. When a minimal cat. 1 hurricane hits a highly populated area, interpret it as a Super Storm that’s unprecedented because of climate change(even though 3 cat. 3 hurricanes hit the same general region in 3 months of 1954)

    3. Wait 24 years, during which the US Cornbelt experiences a record length of time without a widespread severe drought. Then, when the inevitable severe drought does hit in 2012, blame man made climate change.

    4. When a huge typhoon clobbers alot of people in the Pacific. Tell the people in the US its the worst one ever and another example of extreme weather increasing from man made climate change………even while they’ve gone thru the longest period in history by far without being hit by a major hurricane and at the same time, experience the lowest number of annual tornadoes since accurate records counting tornadoes began.

    Yes, I get their point.

  100. Alan Robertson says:
    January 9, 2014 at 6:39 pm
    troe says:
    January 9, 2014 at 6:23 pm

    I’m with those who are shocked that 60 minutes is doing investigative reporting again. Suppose it is only right to give credit when its due.
    _________________________
    Can’t say exactly when it started, but in recent months, several instances have been brought to my attention when CBS actually did the right thing and performed as real journalists instead of propaganda flacks.

    If I were to again start regularly watching a network news program (not likely to happen soon), I’d pick CBS. I first noticed their modest swing back to the center when they permitted reporter Sharyl Attkisson to file investigative reports on the Fast & Furious gunwalking scandal. Since then, isolated incidents like this one have been cropping up.

    I wonder if CBS has finally figured out that everyone else’s news producers are ignoring well over half the population, and has decided to market to that segment, instead of continuing to compete with the loony leftists running ABC/NBC/CNN?

    If so, the leftists who’ve been watching CBS for years are probably experiencing some significant bouts of cognitive dissonance lately.

  101. “george e. smith says:
    January 9, 2014 at 8:36 pm
    “””””…..Col Mosby says:

    January 9, 2014 at 7:00 pm

    Forecast the facts is one meaningless , dopey name……””””””

    They ain’t “facts” until they have happened; ergo, they can’t be forecast !!”

    Actually, I’m ” forecasting the facts” every time I bet on a horse race or put in a bet at a poker table. When I “forecast the facts” I win money, when my forecast is unfactual I lose money.

  102. Leslie said the gasoline from wood chips doesn’t cut into the food supply which “was” a major objection to using ethanol for fuel.

    “Was?” Have we discontinued the EPA ethanol fuel mandate? Praise de Lawd!

  103. Michael Moon:

    I agree with the general tenor of your post at January 10, 2014 at 8:36 am, but I write to answer a question you ask because I think it has general interest and may provide some amusement. Also, the answer has direct relevance to matters in the above article.

    You ask

    Can anyone name one single commercial technology developed by any government anywhere, ever?

    Yes, I can.
    The drilling industry in China 2,500 years ago.

    This industry was the brine wells of Sichuan Province. They were commissioned by Ling Bing (420-221 BC) who was a civil servant in the Warring States period.

    By 300 BC wells for both brine and gas (mostly methane) were being operated to a depth of 650 feet. The industry was fully nationalised by being taken over by the Emperor in 199 BC. And this is the earliest nationalisation of a fossil fuel extraction industry of which I am aware. But it was from its beginning owned and operated b y government either local or national.

    The industry developed through the centuries and wells operated at depths of 850 feet under the Tang Dynasty(618-906 AD).

    The true purpose of the industry was to obtain salt. Pockets of brine and natural gas existed in the region. A hole was dug in the ground using spades until rock was reached and drilling was then undertaken until a pocket was discovered. If gas came out a hole then it was ignited and a metal pan was suspended over the flame. If brine was discovered then bamboo tubes were lowered into the hole and lifted to obtain the brine which was boiled in the pans. When the water was boiled from the pans the residue was the desired salt.

    A hole was drilled by repeatedly dropping a metal ball suspended from a rope. This smashed the rock. Initially the ball was dropped through the center of a pile of stone rings so it always hit where the bore hole was desired. Crushed rock was scooped out. The rope went over a pulley and was attached to one end of a wooden board. A person walked up the slope of the board and his weight pushed the board down so lifting the ball up. The ball dropped when he jumped off the board.

    Drilling rate was surprisingly high with rates being between 1 and 2 feet per day for each hole.

    China has been totalitarian for thousands of years under several different governments. So, China had many ancient industries which were devised and developed by government. Paper making and printing are notable examples.

    Thus, Chinese people have no cultural resistance to taking over industries which have been supported by government(s). And the above article indicates this is happening with some industries in the US.

    Richard

  104. Ooops!

    I wrote
    They were commissioned by Ling Bing (420-221 BC) who was a civil servant in the Warring States period.

    I intended to write
    They were commissioned by Ling Bing who was a civil servant in the Warring States period (420-221 BC).

    Ling Bing was not Lazarus! Sorry.

    Richard

  105. Richard S. Courtney,

    “The ball dropped when he jumped off the board.” OK, if we are calling muscle power (anathema to us mechanical engineers!) “technology,” a stretch, but I’ll work with you. Thank you for this very informative post. Soldiers used to get paid with salt, hence the phrase, “Worth his salt.”

  106. SAIL Capital Partners, Irvine, CA
    Walter L.Schindler, Managing Partner and also on the Board of Cleantech Group,LLC
    Advisory Board includes:
    David Miller, Fmr.Toronto mayor
    Joseph Romm
    http://www.sailcapital.com/team/walter-l-schindler

    Seems most people don’t know who the people are that are involved in the “green” industry..
    Follow the people and follow the money.

  107. Leslie says:
    January 9, 2014 at 10:51 pm

    How shamefully arrogant it is for Vinod Khosla to compare his efforts with cancer research.

    IIRC, the narrator immediately pointed out that the US subsidies and silicon valley investment went not to research (which is what Bjorn Lomborg is advocating) but to financing factories and large-scale projects.

  108. Climate solutions had to put out their 2 cents worth…


    The reports of clean tech’s death have been greatly exaggerated.

    My inbox has been flooded this week with articles, press releases, and email responses to the 60 Minutes hit job on the clean tech industry. The embattled news program’s latest has been described as fluff and sloppy journalism, shoddy, and just plain wrong.

    But, as my colleague KC Golden points out, this show was more than a case of bad reporting – it deliberately ignored the context within which clean tech operates: climate change. Here’s KC on his blog, Getting a GRIP on Climate Solutions:
    “Doing a story about a “clean tech crash” without mentioning climate is symptomatic of a form of denial that may be more destructive than straight-over-tackle lying about climate science. Denial is a remarkably resilient ecosystem, and this kind of silence is the essential host condition in which it continues to thrive.
    Simply not talking about climate disruption in the context of a story about government-supported clean energy technology development is startling – almost aggressive – in its deliberate avoidance of the thing that matters most about the topic.”
    The producers at 60 Minutes would have us believe that clean tech is dead. You and I both know that’s not true because there are thousands of business leaders, executives, and entrepreneurs here in the Northwest who are hard at work creating innovative clean technology solutions to power a clean energy economy.

    Clean tech is in our organizational DNA at Climate Solutions. We are excited to work together with you to move policy forward, grow the clean energy economy, and accelerate practical and profitable solutions to our climate and energy challenges.

    Some great clean economy events that highlight the rapid pulse of our community are listed below. And, as always, you can find more events on our events calendar.

    Chris Bast – Business Partnerships Manager

  109. Joanna says:

    Wobble: I agree with you that the gov should not be supporting business development of immature and inefficient technologies.

    Then you also agree with the pint 60 Minutes was making.

    But I do think it should support research, and not on the understanding that it must be immediately successful…well you know how research often isn’t.

    I did more than agree with this. I indicated that the government should more focus on long-term type research rather than research that can experience a quick pay-off. Quick pay-off research will be privately funded if it’s promising. The government shouldn’t be in that business. That’s why I wrote, “especially for technologies that will rely on many stepping stones over a very long period of time.”

    I thought that all those remarks on 60 minutes about expensive flops showed a pretty naive understanding of how research works.

    Not at all. 60 Minutes clearly made a distinction between research and ill-advised infrastructure builds.

    not all researchers have deep enough pockets to develop their ideas into maturity without support.

    That’s what financing partners are for. The government is terrible at venture capital, and it shouldn’t try it again.

  110. I have talked for years about how people like Vinod Kosla and other renewables ideologues (including Kosla’s buddy and business partner, Al Gore, and our own President, Barack the Usurper) have only been trying to “force the love” with support for a taxpayer-subsidized renewables industry. Now, amazingly, the folks at 60 Minutes are finally discovering the bitter truth that it has all been a pig-in-a-poke, a scam. Better late than never: 60 Minutes, welcome to the fold.

  111. _Jim says:
    January 10, 2014 at 6:51 am

    Rare earth magnets are used in the cell phone vibrate motor.

  112. Pentagon documents show its top arms buyer, Frank Kendall, granted waivers to two main F-35 suppliers, Northrop Grumman and Honeywell International, for the use of Chinese magnets in the fighter plane’s radar system, landing gear and other hardware.

  113. Dennis Hand says:
    January 9, 2014 at 9:50 pm
    What most people don’t even recognize is that we are in the mist of another civil war for the heart and soul of the country. On the left you have the progressive socialist and on the right you have the defenders of the Constitution, the Tea Party, et al. While there has yet to be bullets flying, people have died. Currently, this is being fought in the halls of Congress, the pages of the media, and our educational system. That doesn’t meant that all out bloodshed won’t occur. We hope that it does not.

    Dennis,
    Very good summary!
    MtK

  114. Mario Lento says:
    January 10, 2014 at 3:53 pm
    Pentagon documents show its top arms buyer, Frank Kendall, granted waivers to two main F-35 suppliers, Northrop Grumman and Honeywell International, for the use of Chinese magnets in the fighter plane’s radar system, landing gear and other hardware.

    Mario,
    From my comment at 10:44 on Jan 9:
    Today, we have this: http://www.cnbc.com/id/101309177
    US put China-made parts in F-35 fighter program
    Published: Friday, 3 Jan 2014 | 4:49 PM ET

  115. I might be wrong, but sometimes this climate change or AGW being the scam it is, is a short fix to deflect from more serious issues. You divide a nation over this and some political parties will get more supporters than others. If they changed the issue to ‘sustainability’ and stop all this yahoo on solar is best or wind is better, we might have a chance to undo the harm we humans have done in the past to our natural environment including cities. Certainly in Australia where rain fall is spasmodic and unpredictible. If you live 50 miles from the coast naturally precipitation levels decrease. And so does flooding to a degree. But this government is curtailing the Green bank, much to their annoyance, and if and when the carbon tax is repealed, then we will lead the world.
    I just wonder how the wind turbines are coping with the extra cold weather some States in the USA and Canada are faring?

  116. As far as socialism and capitalism is concerned, the average person is dependent on work or the dole to exist. To the extreme we are neo-serfs. However in a democratic country we are better off than in socialist or eastern countries. Money and the capacity to collect it is mandatory to anyone in any country. The more money you have, and handle it properly, the more options one has and so do your children. When they start advertising California homes on our TV, something is wrong. I could not believe it! And when I watch English programs like ‘Escape to the country’ and people are paying over one million pounds for a property, I am glad that I live in my $400 k 4 bed brick and tile, that needs no heating, and a small garden. (Oh, by no heating other than a two bar electric fire and blanket) we use the sun to warm us up. We have ducted oil heating through out, but I don’t use it, too expensive. Wood smoke is banned in Armidale, NSW. And even that is expensive now a days. Being a valley environment, the smoke when there is cloud keeps the wood smoke down. I believe in Northern Hemisphere homes, according to my English friends, central heating has turned them all into hot house flowers. It is only when they go outside they find it cold. That’s not acclimatisation. I remember when it was coal lite, coke and coal fires, and Jack Frost patterns on the inside of the windows, and icicles forming on the taps inside the bathroom. Numbed fingers and toes, etc. We survived.

  117. Richarscourtney-san:

    Yes, the maxim of free-market trade is for corporations to maximize profits for its stockholders, which is as it should be. In order to accomplish that, the corporation must produce the best product at the cheapest possible price, or risk losing profits to the competition.

    Part of that equation is for the corporation to hire the most competent, productive and skilled labor available to increase production efficiency. The higher the skill set, the higher wages an employee can demand. If an employee can bid his skill set at a higher wage to the competition, he’ll do so, which protects the employee.

    The consumer is the biggest winner as he receives ever higher quality goods at the lowest possible price, which improves his standard of living.

    Apart from minimal contract laws, commercial laws, GAAP standards, product liability, pollution standards, low flat corporate tax rates (should be zero, but that will never happen), etc., applicable to all corporations, there really isn’t a need for additional excessive rules, regulations and mandates.

    If governments lack the authority and power to that can be bought and sold, the corruption will be minimized. Free-market trade and competition will naturally take care of the rest.

    Governments and labor unions use excessive power and authority to extort business. Prior to the exploitive and explosive growth of government, federal spending only accounted for 6~7% of GDP, and 20 million people from around the globe left everything to escape the the tyranny of their counties and to be a part of the fastest growing standard of living and the highest wages the world has ever seen.

    The US government now devours 40% of The private sector’s wealth, another 10% in needless rules regulations and mandate compliance costs and perhaps another 10% in inflation to fund it all….. Accordingly, the US has become just another failed socialistic country.

    Imagine the world we’d live in had the world followed US’ example of limited government and maximum free trade, with $100’s of trillions kept in the private sector instead of wasted by governments, and invested to develop new technologies, new businesses, new education technologies, new infrastructure, new factories, pay higher wages, more savings, revolutionary medical drugs and technologies, new industries, new modes of transportation, etc….

    It boggles the mind… But, alas….

  118. Louis Hooffstetter said:
    January 9, 2014 at 5:38 pm
    ………These boys are chooming!

    Can’t help wondering: are those boys for real?

  119. SAMURAI:

    Thankyou for your thoughtful post addressed to me at January 10, 2014 at 7:49 pm.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/09/climate-campaigners-start-to-eat-their-own-over-cleantech-crash/#comment-1532182

    in reply to my earlier response to you in my post at January 10, 2014 at 6:16 am

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/09/climate-campaigners-start-to-eat-their-own-over-cleantech-crash/#comment-1531478

    Your post I am answering concludes by asserting

    Imagine the world we’d live in had the world followed US’ example of limited government and maximum free trade, with $100′s of trillions kept in the private sector instead of wasted by governments, and invested to develop new technologies, new businesses, new education technologies, new infrastructure, new factories, pay higher wages, more savings, revolutionary medical drugs and technologies, new industries, new modes of transportation, etc….

    It boggles the mind… But, alas….

    But earlier in that post you write admitting your desire is not achieved when you write

    Apart from minimal contract laws, commercial laws, GAAP standards, product liability, pollution standards, low flat corporate tax rates (should be zero, but that will never happen), etc., applicable to all corporations, there really isn’t a need for additional excessive rules, regulations and mandates.

    If governments lack the authority and power to that can be bought and sold, the corruption will be minimized. Free-market trade and competition will naturally take care of the rest.

    I have made no comment on the value of your desire. I merely observed that US government can be and is – to use your language – “bought and sold”. My post you are answering said

    Businesses exist to make profits for their owners. So, companies and corporations will spend money on political campaigns which result in their maximising their profits by gaining subsidies for their businesses from government. And they do. But they would not spend that money if they did not want the government intervention.
    Many – probably most – countries operate forms of corruption. Croney capitalism is a form of corruption which exists in countries where businesses gain a good return from investment in political campaigns. And the US is an extreme example of a country where a good return is obtained from investment in political campaigns.

    Any desire or method to retain or to change that is solely the right of US Citizens.

    Richard

  120. Richard-

    220 years ago, the citizens of the US tried a bold idea and established a limited-government Constitutional Republic.

    That Constitution is now imerely a relic only existing in spirit in an hermetically sealed vault in the Library of Congress.

    In practice, the US Constitution no longer exists after 100 years of its slow and steady erosion by judicial review, intent upon reinterpretation of the Constituion rather than its protection.

    That erosion has led to: $17 trillion in national debt, $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities, $1.7 trillion/yr in rules/regs compliance costs, an out of control NSA/DHS, $1 trillion/yr QE debt monetization and a zombie economy.

    In my option, the US is on the verge of an economic collapse on a scale nerver seen before, after which, the US will have a choice to either restore its Republic or finish its journey down its Road to Serfdom..

  121. Gail Combs says:

    “the Otto Cupler Torpedo Company split off and produced its own nitroglycerin in plants near Titusville until the last plant exploded in 1978. Tallini’s company continued using liquid nitroglycerin until 1989 – when the last of the nitroglycerine supplier’s plant exploded in Moosic, Pennsylvania.”

    Now here is a market nitch that is apparently not presently being served. Anyone for opening a nitro plant with me?

  122. I would sign the petion just because it forces the preeminent news magizine of our time to confront the jackboot tactics of the AGW crowd.

  123. I think the MSM are well-aware that they have a credibility problem. They also recognize that the renewable green technology scams are a floundering whale, easy to harpoon, and renew faith among the gullible masses.

    Each issue should be judged on its own merits. It’s good to hear that the Stahl segment was fairly accurate, but I wouldn’t be counting on any sea change among the MSM.

    ~

    Gail Combs says:
    January 10, 2014 at 12:49 am

    An even better question, Gail:
    ‘Ever hear of a poor politician?

    ~

    RE: Socialism, Communism, et al

    In 1989 China took a major step when it normalized relations with the Soviet Union. Although the general secretary of the Chinese Communist Party had called Gorbachev a “traitor” to Communism, both groups recognized the importance of developing economic ties and, furthermore, could agree that no longer did there exist “compulsory models or stereotypes for realizing socialist ideas and principles.”

    –Britannica 2001

    my bold

  124. Mac the Knife says:
    January 10, 2014 at 5:33 pm
    Mario Lento says:
    January 10, 2014 at 3:53 pm
    Pentagon documents show its top arms buyer, Frank Kendall, granted waivers to two main F-35 suppliers, Northrop Grumman and Honeywell International, for the use of Chinese magnets in the fighter plane’s radar system, landing gear and other hardware.

    Mario,
    From my comment at 10:44 on Jan 9:
    Today, we have this: http://www.cnbc.com/id/101309177
    US put China-made parts in F-35 fighter program
    Published: Friday, 3 Jan 2014 | 4:49 PM ET
    +++++++++++
    Thank you Mac the Knife! you beat me to it :) Sorry I missed your post.

  125. While I would applaud 60 Minutes, they are taking the low road by not even looking at UPC Renewables/UPC Energy and the hundreds of associated shell and shelf corporations involved.

    I now state that 60 Minutes is just pulling a PR fiasco, (much as Hill and did here):

    http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/hill–knowlton-selected-as-official-media-sponsor-for-united-nations-climate-change-conference-67548067.html

    To minimize the damages done from a PR standpoint much like the slap on the hands the banks are getting for fraud.

  126. But, as my colleague KC Golden points out, this show was more than a case of bad reporting – it deliberately ignored the context within which clean tech operates: climate change.

    –Chris Bast – Business Partnerships Manager

    IIRC, the program did mention, briefly, the motives for the govt. subsidies, and “reducing CO2 emissions” was one of them. That was only an allusion to fighting climate change, but it should have been sufficient.

  127. Just an example of connections, influence peddling and money making involved in the Climate Change industry:
    Environmental Defence Fund Inc.
    Board includes:
    Ann Doerr, wife of L.John Doerr III

    http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/board.asp?privcapId=4345876

    Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers
    View: More Key Executives
    L.John Doerr III
    Albert Gore, Jr.

    http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/people.asp?privcapId=21381

    The U.S. is riddled with this kind of activity.

  128. Climate hysteria is their only sales gimmick this week or this year or this decade… as long as they can advantageously use it. Next week it could be inequality (aint it terrible how those Alaskans have to deal with all that cold while southern Floridians are stuck with oppressive heat, humidity, malaria and yellow fever and encephalitis carrying mosquitoes, and the south-westerners have such a problem with drought…), or that the USA’s average student doesn’t do as well as the cherry-picked best half of those from the wealthiest areas of Xland where everyone highly values and promotes academic achievement, or “social justice”, or the need for “civility” in the “village hall” (where it can be easily manipulated using a bastardized Delphi process), the desperate neeeeed for ammunition registration, thermometer registration, thinsulate clothing registration, tighter regulation of thread-counts, restrictions on working hours…

  129. United States Securities And Exchange Commission
    NextEra Energy Inc.
    Form 10-K
    Fiscal year ended December 31, 2008, filed Feb.27,2009
    Part 1, page 15
    NextEra Inc.
    Participation in the U.S. Climate Action Partnership
    Participation in the Clinton Global Initiative
    Supporting Edison Electric Institute’s Climate change framework
    http://www.sec.gov/edgar/searchedgar/companysearch.html
    Enter: NextEra Energy,Inc.

  130. Mac the Knife says:
    rogerthesurf says:
    January 9, 2014 at 9:38 pm
    The ironic thing about taxpayer subsidies of any kind is that overall they decrease employment not create it! Hasn’t anyone in the US read Milton Friedman lately?
    Cheers
    Roger

    http://www.thedemiseofchristchurch.com

    Roger,
    Followed your link and read the Agenda 21 based exam paper ireproduced there. A chilling example of effective propaganda regurgitated by the hapless student! They unabashedly used a quote from Paul and Anne Ehrlich within the exam, as the core of an essay question!
    Very disturbing…
    MtK
    MTK,
    I agree it is very chilling. How could we let this happen to our children?
    What is the reason for it?
    I suggest that the answer lies in this book- ‘Totalataria’ by Ian Wishart.
    Wishart discusses the same exemplar in the latter part of his book. His research has progressed deeper than mine, but our research intersects closely enough for me to say that his facts and opinions look pretty accurate to me, and besides he references everything anyway.
    The book is available from Bigpond and I believe there are Kindle or similar versions around as well.
    Good reading!
    Regards
    Roger

    http://www.thedemiseofchristchurch.com

  131. Barbara says:
    January 13, 2014 at 4:30 pm
    Pembina Institute, Ottawa, Canada, Sept.9,2010
    “Environmental groups comment on meeting with U.S. House Speaker Pelosi and Congressman Markey”
    Includes:
    Environmental Defence Canada, Rick Smith
    Pembina, Marlo Raynolds

    http://www.pembina.org/media-release/2071

    ++++++++
    A quote from that sickening piece “…This morning, we discussed how new pipelines, like TransCanada’s proposed Keystone XL pipeline to the U.S, risk locking the U.S. and Canada into growing dependence on high-impact oil. ”

    Should have read: “…This morning, we discussed how new pipelines, like TransCanada’s proposed Keystone XL pipeline to the U.S, ENSURE that (wink wink nod nod) Warren Buffett’s railroad, BNSF Railway (which runs on Diesel/fossil fuel) can operate without competition from a more efficient pipeline that freedom loving people would otherwise choose. “

  132. _Jim says:
    January 10, 2014 at 7:39 am
    Gail Combs says January 10, 2014 at 12:49 am

    Money has been sucked out of the pockets of the poor

    Not at the national scale; the poor do not pay taxes. (This has been noted to be a repeated meme without basis.)

    “43% pay no federal income taxes”

    http://money.cnn.com/2013/08/29/pf/taxes/who-doesnt-pay-federal-income-taxes/

    “Is it true that only 53 percent of Americans pay income tax?”

    http://money.howstuffworks.com/only-53-percent-pay-income-tax.htm

    ++++++++++++
    According to the US debt clock, there are 115MM US income tax payers. US population is 317MM people. Sure some are retired or children.

  133. Mario Lento says: @ January 13, 2014 at 6:36 pm
    Gail Combs says January 10, 2014 at 12:49 am – Money has been sucked out of the pockets of the poor

    _Jim says:@ January 10, 2014 at 7:39 am – Not at the national scale; the poor do not pay taxes. (This has been noted to be a repeated meme without basis.)
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    _Jim has intentionally misrepresented what I said and he knows it since this has been discussed before. (_Jim hates Mises.)

    Mises on Money
    New money does not appear magically in equal percentages in all people’s bank accounts or under their mattresses. Money spreads unevenly, and this process has varying effects on individuals, depending on whether they receive early or late access to the new money

    It is these losses of the groups that are the last to be reached by the variation in the value of money which ultimately constitute the source of the profits made by the mine owners and the groups most closely connected with them

    This indicates a fundamental aspect of Mises’s monetary theory that is rarely mentioned: the expansion or contraction of money is a zero-sum game.

    So when new money is printed the poor are the ones who lose the VALUE of their money via lower wages and higher prices while the government and bankers get the ‘profits’. Taxes has absolutely nothing to do with what I said unless you consider ‘inflation’ a hidden tax that everyone pays.

  134. Hi Gail:

    When I wrote the comment: “According to the US debt clock, there are 115MM US income tax payers. US population is 317MM people. Sure some are retired or children.”

    I was only commenting to _Jim, regarding number of tax payers. I agree you were not talking about taxes. Although, I can see that my comment contributed to the slide off the topic. :)
    Mario

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