Dr. Paul Bain Responds to Critics of Use of "Denier" Term

UPDATE: Dr. Robert G. Brown of Duke University,  the commenter rgbatduke, made a response that was commented on by several here.  It is eloquent, insightful and worthy of consideration.  See below.

Dr. Paul Bain, the lead and corresponding author of the letter Promoting Pro-Environmental Action In Climate Change Deniers in Nature Climate Change  which was first discussed at WUWT here: Nature’s ugly decision: ‘Deniers’ enters the scientific literature and later here: Lord Leach of Fairford weighs in on Nature’s ‘denier’ gaffe has been busy responding to critics.  Wattsupwiththat asked permission to reprint the e-mail he was sending.  He has asked us, instead, to post the following statement:

 Thank you for your email and the courtesy of requesting permission to post my email to one of your commenters who contacted me by email about the paper. My response is on the record already on Judith Curry’s blog, and the responses to that have pointed to some necessary clarifications (e.g., including the term “anthropogenic” where necessary), and areas where further explanation seems useful. So rather than rehash some of the same debates by posting the original email, I think it would be more productive to post the following which includes clarifications/extensions (many of which I also make in Judith Curry’s blog, but spread across different comments)…

Comments about the use of the “denier” label are a fair criticism. We were focused on the main readership of this journal – climate scientists who read Nature journals, most of whom hold the view that anthropogenic climate change is real. It should also be noted that describing skepticism as denial is a term increasingly used in the social science literature on climate change (e.g. in Global Environmental Change, Journal of Environmental Psychology, Routledge Handbook of Climate Change and Society), and is used informally by some within the climate science community. So we were using a term that is known, used, and understood in the target audience, but which we thought  involved a stronger negative stereotype (e.g. being anti-environmental, contrarian) than skeptic. My thought was this would highlight the contrast  with the data, which suggests that you need not believe in AGW to support pro-environmental action, especially when it had certain types of (non-climate) outcomes (demonstrating a non-contrarian position). So in my mind we were ultimately challenging such “denier” stereotypes. But because we were focused on our target audience, it is true that I naively didn’t pay enough attention to the effect the label would have on other audiences, notably skeptics. Although I hope this helps explain our rationale for using the term, I regret the negative effects it has had and I intend to use alternative labels in the future.

Beyond the negative reaction to “denier”, what has been interesting in many skeptics’ responses (in emails and on blogs) is that our research is propaganda designed to change (or “re-educate”) their mind about whether AGW is real, and I’ve received many long emails about the state of climate science and how AGW has been disproven (or the lack of findings to prove it, including Joanne Nova’s email to me which she posted/linked in your blog).  Actually, the paper is not about changing anyone’s mind on whether anthropogenic climate change is real. There are also skeptics insisting that the issue is ONLY about the state of the science – whether AGW is real – but on this point I disagree. I am approaching this as a social/societal problem rather than as an “AGW reality” problem. That is, two sizeable groups have different views on a social issue with major policy implications – how do you find a workable solution that at least partly satisfies the most people?

Some climate scientists who endorse AGW seem to have assumed that the way to promote action is to convince skeptics that in fact AGW is occurring, and this has not been effective. Similarly, I don’t think skeptics will convince those who endorse AGW that they are wrong anytime soon. But the social/policy issue remains whether you believe in AGW or not. So if policies are going to be put in place (as many governments are proposing), what kinds of outcomes would make it at least barely acceptable for the most people? For our skeptic samples, actions that promoted warmth and economic/technological development were the outcomes of taking action that mattered to them (even if they thought taking action would have no effect on the climate). So our studies showed that these dimensions mattered for skeptics to support action taken in the name of addressing anthropogenic climate change. The might also be other positive outcomes of taking action we didn’t study where some common ground might be found, such as reducing pollution or reliance on foreign oil. Overall, the findings suggest that if there was closer attention to the social consequences of policies, rather than continuing with seemingly intractable debates on the reality of AGW, then we might get to a point where there could be agreement on some action – some might think the action is pointless with regard to the climate (but many other people think it will), but if it produces some other good outcomes it might be ok. Hence, if governments were able to design policies that plausibly achieved these “non-climate” goals, then this might achieve an acceptable overall outcome that satisfies the most people (although admittedly not everybody will agree).

This is the message of our paper, and I hope readers of your blog will be able to accept my regret about the label and focus on the main message. Some have described this message as naïve, but a real-world example (noted by one of our reviewers) illustrates the general point: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/19/science/earth/19fossil.html?pagewanted=all

Kind regards

Paul.

For those interested in getting up to speed, the HTML page for the article is here and the .pdf version with the cited works page, can be downloaded from the options box to the right of the article. The discussion at Judith Curry’s blog is here and Dr. Bain is commenting under the screen name “Paul”.  He is more likely to respond to comments there than here.

UPDATE: 

Dr. Robert G. Brown of Duke University,  the commenter rgbatduke, made a response that was commented on by several here.  It is eloquent, insightful and worthy of consideration. Dr Bain and Dr. Brown are approaching this from different perspectives.

It is pointless to point this out as I doubt Paul will read it (but I’ll do it anyway).

The tragic thing about the thoughtless use of a stereotype is that it reveals that you really think of people in terms of its projected meaning. In particular, even in your response you seem to equate the term “skeptic” with “denier of AGW”.

This is silly. On WUWT most of the skeptics do not “deny” AGW, certainly not the scientists or professional weather people (I myself am a physicist) and honestly, most of the non-scientist skeptics have learned better than that. What they challenge is the catastrophic label and the alleged magnitude of the projected warming on a doubling of CO_2. They challenge this on rather solid empirical grounds and with physical arguments and data analysis that is every bit as scientifically valid as that used to support larger estimates, often obtaining numbers that are in better agreement with observation. For this honest doubt and skepticism that the highly complex global climate models are correct you have the temerity to socially stigmatize them in a scientific journal with a catch-all term that implies that they are as morally reprehensible as those that “deny” that the Nazi Holocaust of genocide against the Jews?

For shame.

Seriously, for shame. You should openly apologize for the use of the term, in Nature, and explain why it was wrong. But you won’t, will you… although I will try to explain why you should.

By your use of this term, you directly imply that I am a “denier”, as I am highly skeptical of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming (not just “anthropogenic global warming”, which is plausible if not measurable, although there are honest grounds to doubt even this associated with the details of the Carbon Cycle that remain unresolved by model or experiment). Since I am a theoretical physicist, I find this enormously offensive. I might as well label you an idiot for using it, when you’ve never met me, have no idea of my competence or the strength of my arguments for or against any aspect of climate dynamics (because on this list I argue both points of view as the science demands and am just as vigorous in smacking down bullshit physics used to challenge some aspect of CAGW as I am to question the physics or statistical analysis or modelling used to “prove” it). But honestly, you probably aren’t an idiot (are you?) and no useful purpose is served by ad hominem or emotionally loaded human descriptors in a rational discussion of an objective scientific question, is there.

Please understand that by creating a catch-all label like this, you quite literally are moving the entire discussion outside of the realm of science, where evidence and arguments are considered and weighed independent of the humans that advance them, where our desire to see one or another result proven are (or should be) irrelevant, where people weigh the difficulty of the problem being addressed as an important contributor (in a Bayesian sense) to how much we should believe any answer proposed — so far, into the realm where people do not think at all! They simply use a dismissive label such as “denier” and hence avoid any direct confrontation with the issues being challenged.

The issue of difficulty is key. Let me tell you in a few short words why I am a skeptic. First of all, if one examines the complete geological record of global temperature variation on planet Earth (as best as we can reconstruct it) not just over the last 200 years but over the last 25 million years, over the last billion years — one learns that there is absolutely nothing remarkable about today’s temperatures! Seriously. Not one human being on the planet would look at that complete record — or even the complete record of temperatures during the Holocene, or the Pliestocene — and stab down their finger at the present and go “Oh no!”. Quite the contrary. It isn’t the warmest. It isn’t close to the warmest. It isn’t the warmest in the last 2 or 3 thousand years. It isn’t warming the fastest. It isn’t doing anything that can be resolved from the natural statistical variation of the data. Indeed, now that Mann’s utterly fallacious hockey stick reconstruction has been re-reconstructed with the LIA and MWP restored, it isn’t even remarkable in the last thousand years!

Furthermore, examination of this record over the last 5 million years reveals a sobering fact. We are in an ice age, where the Earth spends 80 to 90% of its geological time in the grip of vast ice sheets that cover the polar latitudes well down into what is currently the temperate zone. We are at the (probable) end of the Holocene, the interglacial in which humans emerged all the way from tribal hunter-gatherers to modern civilization. The Earth’s climate is manifestly, empirically bistable, with a warm phase and cold phase, and the cold phase is both more likely and more stable. As a physicist who has extensively studied bistable open systems, this empirical result clearly visible in the data has profound implications. The fact that the LIA was the coldest point in the entire Holocene (which has been systematically cooling from the Holocene Optimum on) is also worrisome. Decades are irrelevant on the scale of these changes. Centuries are barely relevant. We are nowhere near the warmest, but the coldest century in the last 10,000 years ended a mere 300 years ago, and corresponded almost perfectly with the Maunder minimum in solar activity.

There is absolutely no evidence in this historical record of a third stable warm phase that might be associated with a “tipping point” and hence “catastrophe” (in the specific mathematical sense of catastrophe, a first order phase transition to a new stable phase). It has been far warmer in the past without tipping into this phase. If anything, we are geologically approaching the point where the Earth is likely to tip the other way, into the phase that we know is there — the cold phase. A cold phase transition, which the historical record indicates can occur quite rapidly with large secular temperature changes on a decadal time scale, would truly be a catastrophe. Even if “catastrophic” AGW is correct and we do warm another 3 C over the next century, if it stabilized the Earth in warm phase and prevented or delayed the Earth’s transition into cold phase it would be worth it because the cold phase transition would kill billions of people, quite rapidly, as crops failed throughout the temperate breadbasket of the world.

Now let us try to analyze the modern era bearing in mind the evidence of an utterly unremarkable present. To begin with, we need a model that predicts the swings of glaciation and interglacials. Lacking this, we cannot predict the temperature that we should have outside for any given baseline concentration of CO_2, nor can we resolve variations in this baseline due to things other than CO_2 from that due to CO_2. We don’t have any such thing. We don’t have anything close to this. We cannot predict, or explain after the fact, the huge (by comparison with the present) secular variations in temperature observed over the last 20,000 years, let alone the last 5 million or 25 million or billion. We do not understand the forces that set the baseline “thermostat” for the Earth before any modulation due to anthropogenic CO_2, and hence we have no idea if those forces are naturally warming or cooling the Earth as a trend that has to be accounted for before assigning the “anthropogenic” component of any warming.

This is a hard problem. Not settled science, not well understood, not understood. There are theories and models (and as a theorist, I just love to tell stories) but there aren’t any particularly successful theories or models and there is a lot of competition between the stories (none of which agree with or predict the empirical data particularly well, at best agreeing with some gross features but not others). One part of the difficulty is that the Earth is a highly multivariate and chaotic driven/open system with complex nonlinear coupling between all of its many drivers, and with anything but a regular surface. If one tried to actually write “the” partial differential equation for the global climate system, it would be a set of coupled Navier-Stokes equations with unbelievably nasty nonlinear coupling terms — if one can actually include the physics of the water and carbon cycles in the N-S equations at all. It is, quite literally, the most difficult problem in mathematical physics we have ever attempted to solve or understand! Global Climate Models are children’s toys in comparison to the actual underlying complexity, especially when (as noted) the major drivers setting the baseline behavior are not well understood or quantitatively available.

The truth of this is revealed in the lack of skill in the GCMs. They utterly failed to predict the last 13 or 14 years of flat to descending global temperatures, for example, although naturally one can go back and tweak parameters and make them fit it now, after the fact. And every year that passes without significant warming should be rigorously lowering the climate sensitivity and projected AGW, making the probability of the “C” increasinginly remote.

These are all (in my opinion) good reasons to be skeptical of the often egregious claims of CAGW. Another reason is the exact opposite of the reason you used “denier” in your article. The actual scientific question has long since been co-opted by the social and political one. The real reason you used the term is revealed even in your response — we all “should” be doing this and that whether or not there is a real risk of “catastrophe”. In particular, we “should” be using less fossil fuel, working to preserve the environment, and so on.

The problem with this “end justifies the means” argument — where the means involved is the abhorrent use of a pejorative descriptor to devalue the arguers of alternative points of view rather than their arguments at the political and social level — is that it is as close to absolute evil in social and public discourse as it is possible to get. I strongly suggest that you read Feynman’s rather famous “Cargo Cult” talk:

http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm

In particular, I quote:

For example, I was a little surprised when I was talking to a

friend who was going to go on the radio. He does work on cosmology

and astronomy, and he wondered how he would explain what the

applications of this work were. “Well,” I said, “there aren’t any.”

He said, “Yes, but then we won’t get support for more research of

this kind.” I think that’s kind of dishonest. If you’re

representing yourself as a scientist, then you should explain to

the layman what you’re doing–and if they don’t want to support you

under those circumstances, then that’s their decision.

One example of the principle is this: If you’ve made up your mind

to test a theory, or you want to explain some idea, you should

always decide to publish it whichever way it comes out. If we only

publish results of a certain kind, we can make the argument look

good. We must publish both kinds of results.

I say that’s also important in giving certain types of government

advice. Supposing a senator asked you for advice about whether

drilling a hole should be done in his state; and you decide it

would be better in some other state. If you don’t publish such a

result, it seems to me you’re not giving scientific advice. You’re

being used. If your answer happens to come out in the direction the

government or the politicians like, they can use it as an argument

in their favor; if it comes out the other way, they don’t publish

it at all. That’s not giving scientific advice.

Time for a bit of soul-searching, Dr. Bain. Have you come even close to living up to the standards laid out by Richard Feynman? Is this sort of honesty apparent anywhere in the global climate debate? Did the “Hockey Team” embrace this sort of honesty in the infamous Climategate emails? Do the IPCC reports ever seem to present the counter arguments, or do they carefully avoid showing pictures of the 20,000 year thermal record, preferring instead Mann’s hockey stick because it increases the alarmism (and hence political impact of the report)? Does the term “denier” have any place in any scientific paper ever published given Feynman’s rather simple criterion for scientific honesty?

And finally, how dare you presume to make choices for me, for my relatives, for my friends, for all of the people of the world, but concealing information from them so that they make a choice to allocate resources the way you think they should be allocated, just like the dishonest astronomer of his example. Yes, the price of honesty might be that people don’t choose to support your work. Tough. It is their money, and their choice!

Sadly, it is all too likely that this is precisely what is at stake in climate research. If there is no threat of catastrophe — and as I said, prior to the hockey stick nobody had the slightest bit of luck convincing anyone that the sky was falling because global climate today is geologically unremarkable in every single way except that we happen to be living in it instead of analyzing it in a geological record — then there is little incentive to fund the enormous amount of work being done on climate science. There is even less incentive to spend trillions of dollars of other people’s money (and some of our own) to ameliorate a “threat” that might well be pure moonshine, quite possibly ignoring an even greater threat of movement in the exact opposite direction to the one the IPCC anticipates.

Why am I a skeptic? Because I recognize the true degree of our ignorance in addressing this supremely difficult problem, while at the same time as a mere citizen I weigh civilization and its benefits against draconian energy austerity on the basis of no actual evidence that global climate is in any way behaving unusually on a geological time scale.

For shame.

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Graeme W
June 20, 2012 8:00 pm

Overall, the findings suggest that if there was closer attention to the social consequences of policies, rather than continuing with seemingly intractable debates on the reality of AGW, then we might get to a point where there could be agreement on some action – some might think the action is pointless with regard to the climate (but many other people think it will), but if it produces some other good outcomes it might be ok.

While it seems like a pretty obvious conclusion, I think this is correct. People will accept action if they see a benefit for doing so. The simplest one is to promote energy efficiency in a cost-effective way. That is, find ways that save people money through reducing their energy consumption.
A simple example is an older post here at WUWT (sorry, I’m not able to find it at the moment) where our host described how he installed more energy efficient lighting in his house.
Sadly, I doubt that message will get out because there is now too much smoke from the poor use of terminology in the paper….

Jared
June 20, 2012 8:14 pm

“It should also be noted that describing skepticism as denial is a term increasingly used in the social science literature on climate change”
So I guess if we start calling anthropogenic global warming believers ‘satanic worshipers’ more and more increasingly then it would not be offensive?

Manfred
June 20, 2012 8:20 pm

“My thought was this would highlight the contrast with the data, which suggests that you need not believe in AGW to support pro-environmental action, especially when it had certain types of (non-climate) outcomes (demonstrating a non-contrarian position).”
Though this may be true sometimes, the opposite is the much more significant issue.
Much of so called “pro-environmental” action is known to have very limited effect on climate and even if you believe in AGW you may therefore reasonably object “pro-environmental” action.
The Kyoto protocol, for example, would have delayed warming over the next 100 years by just a few years according to AGW believers’ computations. And even Kyoto was regarded too costly for many countries to implement.

Tom G(ologist)
June 20, 2012 8:22 pm

Thank you Dr. Bain. A very well-put and noble response. I appreciate being separated from the true ‘denier’ type. I have dedicated 40 years of my life to the study, protection and enhancement of the Earth and a good deal of that in public service protecting the public and the Earth. I hate being lumped in with ideologues and appreciate your distinction. You simply can’t dedicate your life to the Earth as I have and not care – I just have not seen any evidence to compell me to accept the catastrophic AGW hypothesis. Please understand from our perspective that as long as we are treated as a bunch of paid shill’s on the take of oil companies, we have to fight fire with fire. I also take exception with that latter characterization as I do a large amount of work as an expert witness on many matters dealing with Earth systems and I am anything BUT a paid shill.
Thanks again

Ray Hudson
June 20, 2012 8:23 pm

It should also be noted that describing skepticism as denial is a term increasingly used in the social science literature on climate change (e.g. in Global Environmental Change, Journal of Environmental Psychology, Routledge Handbook of Climate Change and Society), and is used informally by some within the climate science community. So we were using a term that is known, used, and understood in the target audience
Translation: “Because lots of other people are using it, we think that makes it OK (right)”. Let me see….what did my parents tell me about that line of reasoning? Moreover, just because other sectors of society make decisions to be uncivil towards others, I thought what held science apart from them was that we did not make things personal in this way. Yes, I guess Post-Modern Science is in full force now… Sad.

June 20, 2012 8:25 pm

… if governments were able to design policies that plausibly achieved these “non-climate” goals, then this might achieve an acceptable overall outcome that satisfies the most people …

There’s a term for this approach. It is calledfocused adaptation. Google “focused adaptation” (with the quotes), and check out the first entry, for example:

Reducing Vulnerability to Climate-Sensitive Risks is the Best Insurance Policy at http://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/08/17/indur-goklany/reducing-vulnerability-to-climate-sensitive-risks-is-the-best-insurance-policy/

ClimateSkeptik
June 20, 2012 8:25 pm

“That is, two sizeable groups have different views on a social issue with major policy implications – how do you find a workable solution that at least partly satisfies the most people?”
Tact and Diplomacy 101: You can start by not referring to one of the groups as deniers.

JinOH
June 20, 2012 8:26 pm

Oh I see, he said he was sorry (sorta, kinda) and it’s all good now. I for one am really sick of these greenies b!tch slapping those who question the science and tell me to put an ice bag on it later.
Done.

Stonemason
June 20, 2012 8:26 pm

“So our studies showed that these dimensions mattered for skeptics to support action taken in the name of addressing anthropogenic climate change.”
I read this reasoning as based from the point that AGW is a solid fact, no matter how may times the author tries to deny it. The subtle language is that anyone who thinks the science is NOT settled needs to be placated in some manner. This is rather insulting, in my opinion. If policy is based on fact, most people will support it, if policy is based on emotion, only half of the people will support it; this does not apply to AGW alone, take a look at other policies (health-care, poverty, drugs).

Saaad
June 20, 2012 8:28 pm

What he still doesn’t seem to grasp is that the vast majority of sceptics accept the notion of AGW, including Jo Nova. The argument is about the size of any warming and how catastrophic – or otherwise – the effects will be. In this sense, his use of the word “denier” is not simply perjorative: it’s also completely inaccurate.

Jim Clarke
June 20, 2012 8:31 pm

If it is a good idea, then it is a good idea. Sell it on its merits and leave AGW out of it. If the only ‘good’ it does is prevent a mythical climate catastrophe, and in the process, costs more and is less efficient, we will not buy it. I would estimate that 98% of all proposals put forth by warmists fall in the latter category.

June 20, 2012 8:32 pm

That thread at JC’s blog disintegrated into twaddle pretty quickly … why do warmies respond in such a puerile manner ? I’m sure “Paul” won’t be joining in to that nonsense.
Dr Bain, As you now accept that the label “denier” is widely and deeply offensive, do you plan to write a follow up letter in Nature to retract your offensive language or do you think that a revision to the paper might be in order ? I might suggest that a paper examining the groupthink phenomenon and potential for Stockholm Syndrome associated CAGW would be a positive contribution to the literature.
From Wiki … “Stockholm syndrome can be seen as a form of traumatic bonding, which does not necessarily require a hostage scenario, but which describes “strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other.”

June 20, 2012 8:36 pm

Jared wrote: “So I guess if we start calling anthropogenic global warming believers ‘satanic worshipers’ more and more increasingly then it would not be offensive?”
I prefer the term “climate commies.”

June 20, 2012 8:36 pm

Jared says:
June 20, 2012 at 8:14 pm
“It should also be noted that describing skepticism as denial is a term increasingly used in the social science literature on climate change”
So I guess if we start calling anthropogenic global warming believers ‘satanic worshipers’ more and more increasingly then it would not be offensive?
========================================
Apparently it wouldn’t be, but I just call them Totalitarian Malthusian Marxists. It’s apt.

June 20, 2012 8:37 pm

The real question is: do people have the right to self-designate? If not, then anyone can call certain melanin-enhanced folks n!ggers, and who’s to complain?
That is, of course, ridiculous. Therefore, pejoratives like “deniers” are just as objectionable. Call us exactly what we are: scientific skeptics, or climate realists. Skeptics are the only honest kind of scientists, no? But the Kool Aid drinkers who believe that CO2 is gonna getcha are no more or less than the equivalent of Scientologists, and they have no right to label the rest of us the same as Holocaust deniers.

Miss Grundy
June 20, 2012 8:40 pm

[SNIP: Miss Grundy, provide a link or two where that term is actually used in the social science literature in Europe and I’ll approve the comment, otherwise, no. -REP]

June 20, 2012 8:43 pm

“Some climate scientists who endorse AGW seem to have assumed that the way to promote action is to convince skeptics that in fact AGW is occurring, and this has not been effective. Similarly, I don’t think skeptics will convince those who endorse AGW that they are wrong anytime soon.”
He just doesn’t get it at an alarmingly fundamental level. Skeptics aren’t trying to convince scientists they are wrong, they are trying to make the scientists prove they are right.
So far the scientists seem to be content with flawed reasoning and methods, non-science (ie models) and what appears to be a good measure of confirmational bias when formulating “experiments” and then interpreting the results.

davidmhoffer
June 20, 2012 8:46 pm

Dr Bain;
1. The summation of your article and the email posted above is that having failed to convince skeptics that CAGW exists, the world should turn to alternative reasons for taking the same action. In other words, having failed miserably to convince us with the facts, you’re proposing to trick us into doing what you want anyway.
2. The term was coined for the express purpose of discrediting those who disagree that CAGW is a problem. It is an odious strategy with no merit in either a science discussion or a social policy discussion. You’r express strategy of trying to find “other reasons” for the rest of us to do what the alarmists want says much about your disregard and disdain for the opinions of skeptics.
3. Beware the law of unintended consequences. The “science” that supports CAGW is so twisted out of recognition from actual science that words fail me in describing the enormity of the problem. If you seek “common ground” in which one side has chosen a course of action based on flawed science, convincing the other side to go along may well result in consequences you had not envisioned and may well be more negative for society than the problem supposedly being solved.
This last point Dr Bain, is the most important. Good decisions are founded upon a firm understanding of the facts. Absent such an understanding, the actions we take are far more likely to be ill advised than beneficial. I argue against taking any action on the basis of bad science, and the notion that I can be manipulated into going along with the crowd by finding alternative means of persuasion is as insulting and as dangerous as the d*ni*r label itself.

Ian H
June 20, 2012 8:47 pm

… describing skepticism as denial is a term increasingly used in the social science literature on climate change (e.g. in Global Environmental Change, Journal of Environmental Psychology, Routledge Handbook of Climate Change and Society), and is used informally by some within the climate science community. So we were using a term that is known, used, and understood in the target audience …

“Everybody does it” is no excuse.

I am approaching this as a social/societal problem rather than as an “AGW reality” problem.
That is, two sizeable groups have different views on a social issue with major policy implications – how do you find a workable solution that at least partly satisfies the most people?

Define “the problem”. You seem to think the problem is persuading sceptics to go along with the program. You are starting with the “solution” and looking for justifications. This is not science. This is an exercise in Machievellian political strategizing and I am astonished that it should be published in a scientific journal like nature.

Some climate scientists who endorse AGW seem to have assumed that the way to promote action is to convince skeptics that in fact AGW is occurring, and this has not been effective.

Climate scientists shouldn’t be trying to “promote action”. Their job is to supposedly to study the climate. The political capture of climate scientists who speak of “the cause” and seek justfications rather than answers has lead to the current distrust of climate science and a decline in the trust of science overall. These corrupted scientists are the real problem.

… Hence, if governments were able to design policies that plausibly achieved these “non-climate” goals, then this might achieve an acceptable overall outcome that satisfies the most people (although admittedly not everybody will agree).

How is this deserving of publication in nature? This is not science. It is political strategy. It is propaganda. You claim to want to go beyond the question of what influence man may have on the climate. But that IS the science. What is left once you discard this question is naked ugly politics of the worst kind. At the risk of invoking Godwin;’s law, if this is science then Goebbels was a scientist

David
June 20, 2012 8:50 pm

The Virginian said, ‘When you call me that, smile.” The kind of people who use ‘Denier’ in the climate debate are not smiling, even when they try to justify their position as Dr Bain does.
I felt that ‘Denier’ was originally introduced into the climate debate by non-scientists intending to denigrate their opponents. The word was introduced in a historical era in which the term ‘Denier’ linked immediately, at gut level, to Holocaust denial. ‘Denier’ was introduced into the climate debate to denigrate persons who dared to disagree with what was becoming orthodoxy by linking reservations on AGW to Holocaust denial. I don’t have the time or skills to track down the introduction of the term though I would be interested to know who first sank to that particular level. We can disbelieve in a deity or disbelieve in human rights without being called Deniers by the leaders of the pro-deity and/or pro-human rights groups, presumably those leaders have more maturity and wisdom than do the leaders of the pro-AGW group.
David

Ed Barbar
June 20, 2012 8:54 pm

I get it. So, the facts aren’t strong enough to convince them, but we really want these policies to go through. So let’s find some way to manipulate the proles into what we want to do.
Great going, Dr. Bain. We are definitely heading back to the ages when the Monks get to speak their own language, but the proles don’t really get to know. Disgusting.

Don
June 20, 2012 8:55 pm

I often think that all this arguing about AGW and whether CO2 is a pollutant, etc is a huge waste of time and effort.
First, no one is going to dial back the economy. That’s not gonna happen. People will take up arms rather than be forced into the lifestyle proposed by the Greens. Myself included.
Even if they did it would have zero impact simply due to the third world alone. In short, IF AGW is real, then we are screwed because man is not going to stop doing what causes it.
Sooooo…any reasonable person would ask themselves, if we can’t make people change, what can we do to accommodate their demand for energy and at the same time drastically reduce CO2 output? We all know the answer to that. We have it, it’s here now and it can only become safer and more economical in the future. But the very same people who are whining about AGW are the ones who almost killed this technology.
The ONLY thing that can possible be done is to go full scale nuclear. With new, per-certified designs, smaller plants, etc, nuclear can be safe, reliable and last thousands of years.
Will Dr. Bain spend less time and money trying to convince people to buy a Pirus and more time and money encouraging governments and people to embrace nuclear? If he is serious about a solution he will. If not, then either he’s not serious, or just wants to ride the Government gravy train as long as he can.

June 20, 2012 8:57 pm

It stands repeating in case we’ve forgotten that the term Climate Denier was taken solely for the reason that it sounded like Holocaust Denier. So it is intrinsically repellent, and, indeed, ghastly. They use the insulting and provocative term to demean us. It is gratuitous, and fully unnecessary as there are other well-known terms to use to describe us (as skeptic).
Some skeptics show signs of acceptance of the denier term, or of being inured to it. I say that should end. Don’t let the nasty warmists get away with that anymore. Hold the dastardly bums’ feet to the fire. Work to somehow help arrange for their comeuppance.

Thrasher
June 20, 2012 8:59 pm

It seems there is a big disconnect with what many believe is a “skeptic” in the CAGW camp. Most skeptics actually believe in a level AGW, so you don’t have to convince them that AGW exists. Most of them, however, are not buying the CAGW scenarios.
Anthropogenic Global Warming and Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming are two very different brands of vodka.

eyesonu
June 20, 2012 9:03 pm

Anthony, the link “here” to Curry’s blog gets me there but seems something is amiss. Something seems to be wrong with the link or formatting when I get there. I used the link under “lukewarmers” and all was well. Sorry I don’t know enough to help.
Paul Bain is getting hammered over at J Curry’s in the comments. Count was 559 when I left.
He’s a slick talker (commenter) but I’m not buying what he’s selling. In a sense he reminds me of Myles Allen and I didn’t buy his BS either. I have another thought but will keep the cat in the bag until we see how it goes with him.
[REPLY: Thanks. The link is fixed. -REP]

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