Things we don't know – about climate

This is a guest post by Paul Murphy – and I’d like to thank Mr. Watts for giving me this opportunity to present it here.

This is a very long post by WUWT standards – nearly 3,000 words all driving toward the basic conclusion that what we know about global warming is pretty much nothing: we’ve no baseline, so don’t know if it’s happening; we’ve no cost/benefit evaluation so don’t know whether it would be net positive or net negative; if it is happening we don’t understand its causation and if it isn’t we don’t understand why not; and really the only thing we’re pretty sure of is that the people jumping up and down screaming that they have the answers are either deluded or charlatans.

I drafted this article on November 19th, 2010. At about ten that morning the weather channel, which gets its data for Lethbridge, Alberta from environment Canada and thus ultimately from sensors less than ten kilometers from my house, said the temperature was -17C. At that same time, however, the sensors about four feet above my roof reported a temperature of -19.2C.

By coincidence, and again according to the weather channel, the all time record low for November here, -35.6C, was set on that same day in 1921.

The source number for that claim, presumably 32.08F, is actually an interpolation from various agricultural research and military facilities across southern Alberta, because the airport weather station has been moved a few times and many of the source records lost – but it should be obvious in any case that neither the thermometers in use at airports in 1921 nor the processes in place to record temperature supported anything like that level of precision.

So how cold was it here before I left that morning? there’s really no way to know – and how did that compare to 1921? I don’t know that either.

What I do know is that the values shown were averages taken over time; that neither instrument is predictably accurate to even one decimal place; and that the air between the two is of variable depth, variable humidity, in constant motion, and had markedly less than one chance in twenty-two of being at a real average temperature of -18.1C at about 10 AM that day.

So how does this extrapolate to sticking a thermometer into the troposphere to estimate our planet’s near ground air temperature? Well, in total the world has less than one sensor for every sixty thousand square kilometers; about three quarters of them are closely grouped in the United States, western Europe, and the militarily significant part of southeastern Russia; almost none have trustworthy time-of-readings records for more than a few years; most of the records are both short and discontinuous; most of the readings are accurate only within loose bounds; and an unknown proportion of the time series supposedly formed from instrument readings contain unknown interpolations.

There are other sources of information. For example, weather satellites have produced records for perhaps half the earth’s surface since about the mid seventies – but those records too have unknown source errors; may now contain accumulated and largely undocumented differences from the source data; show significant coverage bias favoring areas important to civil aeronautics; and are generally accessible only in the form of time series whose values are derived from real measurements pertaining mainly to the upper troposphere through calculations calibrated against the same ground sensor readings they’re used to extend and correct.

In contrast many of the proxy records are both long and internally consistent – but they don’t help because these are very coarse grained: whether they’re based on isotope decay or tree rings, the best “rulers” these produce are location specific and marked in decadal or century intervals, not globally applicable and marked in seasons or years.

The bottom line on this is simple: I can’t pretend to know the temperature within a few kilometers of my house right now to within a couple of degrees C without making basic scientific errors in everything from measurement and imagined precision to application – and when people like Jones and Hansen announce in all apparent seriousness that the entire earth is now 0.5C degrees warmer than it was during the period from 1961 to 1990 they’re asking us to accept a very precise number on the basis of data that’s much worse than mine and in the face of applicability, measurement, and computational ambiguities that are orders of magnitude greater.

There seem to be two arguments for not dismissing their claims as nonsense. First, that we don’t need to know the atmosphere’s temperature now because climate science is about change and X + 0.7 degrees will have visible effects regardless of the value of X. The Polar bear, for example, will go extinct and Manhattan will flood – except that we’re pretty sure the medieval warming period was just one of many such in history and not only did the polar bear make it through those embarrassingly undead, but what’s known of civilizational history in estuaries and around tidal basins from the Thames to the Yellow does not suggest the existence of longer term human noticeable flooding during any of those extended warm periods.

Second there’s the Foundation myth: the belief that it’s possible to predict the direction and extent of motion of something like a collection’s center of mass (or the chartrist’s Dow Jones average) without knowing anything about the motion of the individual units involved – or, in other words, that we can predict where a herd of cattle will go when stampeded without needing to know where they started, how many there were, what frightened them, much about the land they’re on, the direction each animal starts in, or even whether they’re actually cattle.

The Frank Slide took place on April 29th of 1903, about an hour’s drive from here when an estimated 90 million tons of limestone tipped off Turtle Mountain to bury the people, their town, and the railway beneath an estimated two kilometer rubble run-out. This slide hasn’t moved much since, has been extensively studied, is comprised of materials for which the basic physics of motion and energy transfer are well understood – and yet the best we can do in terms of placing its center of mass is plus or minus about fifty meters – roughly on the same order of accuracy as predicting yesterday’s temperature in Lethbridge to within a few degrees.

Basically the Foundation idea is intuitively obvious and makes for great science fiction, but the reality of any analysis aimed at actually making it work is that you need a secure grip on starting conditions, an understanding of the physics of change, strong boundaries on the range of change, and a small enough data set to make the simulation computationally feasible – so if you’ve ever wondered why the best known climate models come down to thirty or forty years of encrusted tinkering you now know: these models are continually adjusted to predict their own inputs, but cannot reliably predict excessions because the underlying climate science does not meet any of the conditions required for this kind of modeling to work.

So what do we know? We know that many of the people warning us of the horrible consequences of human caused global warming haven’t been the disinterested scientists they’ve pretended to be – basically from Hansen and Jones to Gore and Waxman most of the more deeply committed have shown themselves deeply corrupted. That’s sad, but even sadder is the hidden reality: that knowing Mann and Bradley made up the hockey stick to defend a lie doesn’t tell us anything about global climate change – it just tells us things we didn’t want to know about them.

Most people, of course, know the numbers don’t work but rationalize accepting alarmist conclusions anyway because they think that “greenhouse science” – the belief that increasing greenhouse gases in the atmosphere will cause traumatic global warming – is settled; and so see the lack of response to increasing atmospheric CO2 in weather data as a reflection on the quality of the data, not the theory.

Basically these people assume the wolf to justify the alarm: picturing Gore et al as yelling “Wolf!” because “greenhouse science” proves the wolf – and then excusing the business of rather obviously drawing improbable conclusions from inadequate data as laudable and necessary moral sacrifice by experts committed to rousing the rest of us to action.

Unfortunately the science on greenhouse gas effects is not only not settled, the claims made for it seem rather more likely to be wrong than right.

Specifically, the usual assertion is that human actions distort natural processes to negative effect – with the supporting proposition being that the planetary atmosphere will trap more solar energy, thus causing atmospheric heating, when it contains relatively more greenhouse gases, particularly CO2, then when it contains relatively less.

The classic demonstration for this involves adding CO2 to the air in only one of a pair of similar, closed, containers; exposing both to a radiant heat source until the containers reach equilibrium with the surrounding atmosphere; and then comparing one or both of the internal temperature and/or duration of the cool down period for the two. Do it, and you’ll find that the one containing some additional CO2 retains more heat and the claim is that this demonstrates the greenhouse effect.

It doesn’t. The experiment actually demonstrates two things about heat energy capture and storage: first, that increasing density increases heat storage capacity; and, second, that increasing the volume being heated at some constant rate increases the rate of energy transfer. Imagine the same experiment with the addition of a piece of non reflective metal material of comparable weight to the CO2 placed in the jar previously containing only air. What you would find is that the jar containing the CO2 changes internal temperature more quickly than the one with the metal sliver does, but that the total energy transfers are about the same.

Basically doing only the first half of the experiment and not thinking about the result supports the case, but going beyond that does not – and neither does looking at what real world extrapolation from the jar experiment might mean.

Most importantly, the material in the CO2 enriched jar is of a fixed mass, in a fixed state, and there is no expectation that its energy absorption and retention rates will change over time. Imagine glimpsing the earth from some significant distance and it can look just like that: a gravitational container filled with air and a bit of heavier stuff in the center. But up close, time passes and things happen: water and greenhouse gases move into and out of the atmosphere, mixing occurs at different rates both vertically and horizontally, some surfaces are net radiators, others net absorbers – overall the longer term energy balance seems to work, but many of the specifics and nearly everything about the rates of change involved, are neither understood in the science nor modeled in the jar experiment.

For most purposes the biggest difference between the experiment and reality is that in the real world there’s only one jar: i.e. the CO2 introduced into the test jar comes from the test jar. Thus it’s true that the materials in the planetary jar change state over time – trees grow, coal burns – but because the total mass in the jar is very nearly constant, the assumption that the input energy is roughly constant means that the total amount of heat energy the entire system can hold in long term equilibrium against the space around it has to be close to a constant too – and thus that a glaciated world cannot become tropical without significant change in energy input.

Thus the bottom line on the argument that alarmists can justify patching over weaknesses and contradictions in the data they purport to base their conclusions on because the effect of increasing greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere is certain, is perhaps best illustrated in a joke generations of mathematicians have told about an experimental physicist testing the proposition that all odd numbers are prime: “1”, he says, “is, so is 3, -and 5, 7, 9, umm, 9, umm, 11 is, 13 is, 17 is, 19” -ok, they’re all prime and nine? experimental error, it’ll come out right next time.

So if we can’t believe in the data, the people, or the “settled science”, what can we believe? Perhaps that a hypothetical Canadian Canute party offering a credible commitment to end winter would win in a landslide? Or, more seriously, that all the fuss about whether or not humans are influencing global climate change has allowed the alarmist lobby to insert an obvious falsehood into the public consciousness on this issue: the belief that even minor global warming will produce terrible harm when what we know of both history and biology says the contrary is far more likely to be true.

By 10 PM on the evening of November 19th, for example, it was about -27 here with the wind chill dropping that down to an effective -40 something: an environment just as much the opposite of the green and fecund jungle most of the earth’s life has evolved in as the driest deserts in north Africa, central Asia, and Australia.

Come spring the area around here will go green with rain and erupt with life: people in our parks, ducks on our lakes, fawns in our coulees – and the water cycle effects that might well go with even a few degrees increase in “average” atmospheric temperaure worldwide might do the same for the roughly one third of the earth’s potentially arable land that’s now too dry or too cold for agriculture.

So there’s something else we don’t know: why do “greens”, people who profess to favor life and bio diversity in all its forms, so strongly oppose change most likely to strongly favor life and bio-diversity?

The obvious answer, that many of the leaders involved are merely using environmentalism as a handy bludgeon for the achievement of unrelated political or monetary goals, may well be correct, but is merely an ad hominem argument allowing us to dismiss them while telling us nothing about either the desirability or reality of anthropomorphic global warming.

So when you get down to it, what we know about global warming is pretty much nothing: we’ve no baseline, so don’t know if it’s happening; we’ve no cost/benefit evaluation so don’t know whether it would be net positive or net negative; if it is happening we don’t understand its causation and if it isn’t we don’t understand why not; so really the only thing we’re pretty sure of is that the people jumping up and down screaming that they have the answers are either deluded or charlatans.

Wow – so because I haven’t a clue how to go about getting the information needed to address any of this, I’m going to do what I did at about this time back on November 19th: throw another log on the fire, and watch The Good Guys on TV.

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latitude
December 26, 2010 11:28 am

Thank you Paul
When they adjust past CO2 levels down…
Adjust past temperatures down…..

Vorlath
December 26, 2010 11:30 am

Reminds me of the three laws of computing (no, not robotics). This relates to models or any computation really. The cool thing about these laws is that you need to know nothing about computing or the models.
1. Garbage in, garbage out. (IOW, bad input means bad output)
2. Garbage algorithm, garbage out. (bad methods, bad output)
3. Garbage past predictions, garbage future predictions.
It seems that all the models suffer from all three problems.

Alexander Vissers
December 26, 2010 11:39 am

“Antropomorphic”? is this a typo?

December 26, 2010 11:40 am

Thanks for this post. It has many basic things for new people and laymen.

Alexander Vissers
December 26, 2010 11:43 am

The greenhouse gas effect of CO2 and other with graphics of the wavelength window has been extensively depicted on this site. No point in questionning it, it is undisputed but by itself allows no conclusion on future “global climate” (not a very meaningful concept either). Forgot to include the uncertainty of sea surface temperature but overall a sobering expose.

jorgekafkazar
December 26, 2010 11:53 am

The tranaparent bottle experiment seldom is done correctly. If the thermal mass is a factor, it would be interesting to do the experiment using methane instead of CO².

Pamela Gray
December 26, 2010 11:59 am

I think we also don’t know causation behind the correlation of sea ice and the Arctic Oscillation. Here is a “what if” mind experiment.
First the set up: It is clear that a negative AO leads to much colder river freezing temperatures in lower latitudes outside the Arctic Circle. Why? While polar pressure is weaker, the vortex is wider, sending Arctic blasts into a wider circle.
Second, an interesting phenomenon: Warmer water in and around a warmer Southern tip of Greenland appears to be related to Arctic winds pushing/piling warmer water South.
Third, now a mind experiment: This same wider vortex, if it continues, could eventually sweep out lots of warmer waters out of the Arctic and into currents that would send it further South. Would at first, this same condition cause an anomaly in Arctic ice area and extent that at first would lead many to consider that the Earth as a whole was warming up (IE thinner ice and the appearance of a death spiral), in spite of colder weather at lower latitudes? And would this retreating wind-blown warmer water be eventually replaced by ever colder water in the Arctic leading to an eventual rebound?
Fourth, now the “what if”: What if this condition, a persistent negative AO, is exactly what is needed at the beginning of mini, minor, or major ice ages that see ice sheets further South? There is no question that cold air is needed at lower latitudes to freeze up rivers and lakes, leading to the ice dams necessary for ice sheets to form.
Hmmmmm.

Joe Prins
December 26, 2010 12:02 pm

Great going, Paul. Here in St.Albert, Alberta, where temperature changes partly depend on the wind direction from Edmonton, the same observations can be made. It is my presumption that the same holds true, everywhere on the globe. Even Vanuatu.
A professor who is the chair of a department at the University of Lethbridge probably would want to argue your comments. However, he also stated that the Antarctic is melting.
Such is the level of “science” in the warmist community.

Kath
December 26, 2010 12:17 pm

This is all about dogma. Global warming only requires belief from its adherents. The science is settled. After all, Global warming is truly a magical event in nature. It not only causes warmer winters, but more snow, more antarctic ice, more antarctic melt, acidifies oceans, causes droughts in California and elsewhere, causes floods in California and elsewhere, causes hurricanes, does not cause hurricanes, causes sea levels to rise, does not cause sea levels to rise. It also causes climate change, something that has obviously never happened before humans started generating CO2 by burning oil and coal.
Talking of global warming causing more snow:
The NYT Op-ed contributor Judah Cohen
(Judah Cohen is a director of AER based in Lexington
http://www.aer.com/index.html
One home page headline: Climate Change Could Cause $12.3B In Annual Losses For Gulf, East Coasts National Underwriter Property & Casualty, Nov. 18, 2010
Findings of research study by Atmospheric & Environmental Research (AER) and AIR Worldwide, a risk modeling firm.)
Anyway, Judah would have us believe that:
“As global temperatures have warmed and as Arctic sea ice has melted over the past two and a half decades, more moisture has become available to fall as snow over the continents. So the snow cover across Siberia in the fall has steadily increased.”
….
“It’s all a snow job by nature. The reality is, we’re freezing not in spite of climate change but because of it.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/26/opinion/26cohen.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

December 26, 2010 12:56 pm

I like Murphy’s law. It also applies to truth.
Given enough time, eventually the truth will come out…
Essentially, Paul came to much the same conclusion as I did,
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/more-carbon-dioxide-is-ok-ok
Just looking at the same problem from different corners offers valueable insight.
thanks Paul.

Anything is possible
December 26, 2010 1:04 pm

Pamela Gray says :
Fourth, now the “what if”: What if this condition, a persistent negative AO, is exactly what is needed at the beginning of mini, minor, or major ice ages that see ice sheets further South? There is no question that cold air is needed at lower latitudes to freeze up rivers and lakes, leading to the ice dams necessary for ice sheets to form.
Hmmmmm.
_____________________________________________________________
I think there is some merit in this proposition, but the big flaw is that ice sheets can only begin to form if summer temperatures cool sufficiently to allow ice and snow to persist all year round. We would seem to be a long way from that right now.
Even if conditions are becoming conducive to ice sheet formation, another big push would be required to force the climate into a full-scale glaciation.
Volcanic eruptions on a grand scale would do the trick……….

Blackhole2001
December 26, 2010 1:19 pm

Who cares about how many temp gauges there are and how accurate they are! Open your eyes and see the physical REAL world effects of global warming! And they are probably caused by man made burning of fossil fuels, which create heat and CO2 in the process. 75% of the scientists think that this is the case.

Curiousgeorge
December 26, 2010 1:30 pm

Paul, you’ve done a well written piece, but you do know you are preaching to the choir here, right? If you have any pull with, say, the NY Times or other “true believers” in AGW/Anthropogenic Climate Change, or a tame lobbyist up your sleeve, you should try to get this published where it might attract some new eyes. The pressure needs to be on those who use AGW for various political/regulatory and economic agendas (the climate justice mantra ), not the folks who already agree with you. Just sayin’ . 🙂

Noblesse Oblige
December 26, 2010 1:32 pm

Humans are more predictable than climate. Follow the money. It beats thermodynamics everytime.

Allencic
December 26, 2010 1:36 pm

Kath is right, to the AGW believers it really is a magical event. So, why don’t we simply start calling it “Global Climate Magic” or GCM. If it can morph from global warming to climate change to climate disruption it seems perfectly reasonable to me to make the change to the more honest description of “Climate Magic”.

pat
December 26, 2010 1:39 pm

Kath –
in the same way ben santer attended UEA, note cohen’s academic (and other) connections:
AER: Dr. Judah Cohen, Director of Seasonal Forecasting, joined Atmospheric and Environmental Research, Inc. as a Staff Scientist in 1998. Prior to AER, he spent two years as a National Research Council Fellow at the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies after two years as a research scientist at MIT’s Parsons Laboratory. Cohen received his Ph.D. in Atmospheric Sciences from Columbia University in 1994 and has since focused on conducting numerical experiments with global climate models and advanced statistical techniques to better understand climate variability and to improve climate prediction…
Dr. Cohen has a Research Affiliate appointment in the Civil Engineering Department at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and is a member of the American Meteorological Society (AMS) and the American Geophysical Union (AGU). He has published over two dozen articles on seasonal forecasting in their journals and others. Most recently, Dr. Cohen was appointed Associate Editor of the Journal of Climate, a peer-reviewed publication of the AMS.
http://www.aer.com/aboutUs/leadership.html

Pete Olson
December 26, 2010 1:39 pm

Alexander Vissers:
“questionning”? is this a typo?

Dave Springer
December 26, 2010 1:45 pm

Groucho Marx said: “I refuse to join any club that would have me for a member.” Thus I was a bit alarmed when Anthony accepted me as guest author. Scary stuff.
While I agree with the conclusion there are some problems in the preceding diatribe where it discusses satellite temperature sensing and “jar experiments” with greenhouse gases.
The satellites used since 1979 to measure global temperature do not sense surface temperature nor are their measurements more focused on particular areas important to aviation nor are they compared to surface temperatures. These are polar orbiting satellites sweeping across every latitude on every orbit with longitude varying as the earth rotates beneath them. There is no bias in extent of coverage. The bias is in their predecessors which are radiosonde ballons which extend the record back to 1958 for the same mid to upper troposphere range which the satellites now cover. Neither the satellites nor the radiosondes attempt to or were designed to establish a surface temperature record. Temperature aloft is all they do. Radiosondes were definitely biased in coverage to areas important to aviation and artillery. I launched a fair number of radiosonde balloons myself back in the 70’s before the satellites took over for temperature data. The tracking and recording equipment probably weighed at least a ton back then and it was persnickety. It also required substantial generator to power the ground based gear. I was actually an electronics technician responsible fors repair, maintenance, and calibration of, among other electronic weather forecasting gimcracks, radiosonde tracking and recording gear. Since my work was done by launch time I usually helped with filling and launching. Anyhow, that’s why radiosonde coverage was limited. It was a major endeavour far more costly and difficult than setting up a Stevensen screen and reading a min/max thermometer once a day. Radiosondes are far simpler and more reliable than remote sensing by satellites. They’re the gold standard used to judge whether the satellite data is good or not. There is controversy over how good the satellite data is. I suggest this for a primer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_temperature_measurements
Next up, the jar experiments. Those described are the crudest of things that wouldn’t even place in a science fair competition. The seminal experimental work in radiative characteristics of gases was done by John Tyndal in the 1850’s. He was arguably one of the greatest experimental physicists of the 19th century. The author of the OP has obviously never read the book “Heat: A Mode of Motion” by Tyndal. Anyone who begins to question the physics of greenhouse gases in the most basic form of working as an insulator is, quite honestly, an example of the cranks that give informed CAGW skeptics a bad reputation through association.

Theo Goodwin
December 26, 2010 1:46 pm

I agree totally with your main points, as stated in your first paragraph, after your introduction of yourself. I agree with everything that you say about the data and the way that pro-AGW climate scientists cuisinart the data. In fact, all of this has been proven in slam dunk fashion many times. If climate scientists were serious about their science, they would insist that the first order of business is to convene a council of climate scientists and leading sceptics for the purpose of designing one or more temperature measurement systems for Earth’s atmosphere. Once we have some reliable data, then maybe we can make some progress in debates about temperature change.
By the way, for those who think that measurement stations can be trusted, a good exercise is to navigate to wunderground.com, put in your zipcode, and then navigate to the bottom of the screen. Depending on where you live, you will find reports from twenty to a hundred thermometers local to your area. In some cases, you will find more than one official NOAA thermometer. The shape of my area is a rectangle of length about five miles by two miles. In that area, the range of temperature reports at any moment is about twelve degrees. If I discount the obvious outliers, the range drops to about 7 degrees. One of those thermometers is an official NOAA thermometer and another is owned by a recently retired meteorologist. Given this range of variation among existing, local thermometers, how could anyone take seriously thermometer reports from total strangers who were not trained, reported no metadata, reported from sites unseen, and reported from records that contain obvious errors, including systematic errors?

Jack
December 26, 2010 1:46 pm

Excellent. The Irish Government ran out of money, so it is brining in a carbon tax.
The Australian Government run by warmists has run out of money, so they are bringing in a carbon tax Sceptics or or charmingly defined deniers are deliberately excluded from the committee.
CSIRO, Australia’s mostly government funded science organisation, has been found to have colluded in tampering with temperature data, yet they are taken as proof. Your line about the computer models being used to justify the input data nails CSIRO exactly. In New Zealand, the used contaminated data to justify and ETS but when challenged in court, they agreed the data was not reliable enough to even claim there was a record at all. The biter bit his own arse.
The gyrations of the climate carpetbaggers are incredible. As soon as they are caught red handed, they change their story.

vigilantfish
December 26, 2010 1:47 pm

Paul, thank you for this post. Greetings from balmy southern Ontario! I was almost put off by the warning about length, but found this very easy reading. It is far more approachable than many of the graph-laden posts, some of which do not condescend to provide a synopsis or conclusions for those of us who are somewhat science-challenged. You provide a nice perspective, and a very clear and logical rebuttal of the standard transparent bottle experiment. As Jorgekafkazar notes above, it would be interesting to see what would happen if another ‘greenhouse’ gas were added, or in fact, what would happen if any gas were added so as to increase the gas density.

JRR Canada
December 26, 2010 1:51 pm

Beautiful summation, I have been wondering along similar lines, what of the IPCC “proof” of causation is left? As I understand it the foundation of CAWG has evaporated under scrutiny. My own reading of the 2007 4th report left me with a summary as follows, We (IPCC) don’t know what drives weather/climate, we identify 16 possible drivers and investigate 1 (CO2 produced by man) and our computer models only appear to work if CO2 is the driver and therefore CO2 is the only possible driver. but trust us even tho we have got it wrong every time so far, this time our computer projection models are accurate. Pretty weak stuff to be calling for drastic wealth redistribution and calling all who inquire as to their data and methodology nasty names. And after M&M, Wegman and the CRU emails, trust is in short supply. As for science, well in my world, No Data means No Valid Results. So claiming as in the case of the CRU, to have lost the raw data but that they stand by the results is hopeless. Now the NZ Official Climatology has been run away from and the UHI effect may be far more than allowed for, its possible we are in a cooling weather phase but the data is too messed up to know. Government funded science is indistinquishable from propaganda at the moment and therefore about as useful for policy purposes. I never expected scientology to be more credible than climatology but I think we have seen that happen this year.Happy New year 2011 will be very entertaining.

dave38
December 26, 2010 1:51 pm

A very good post Paul. It should be required reading for everyone.

Alex
December 26, 2010 1:51 pm

Any person that takes what they learned about what is Science seriously know that we don’t know much about climate.

stephen
December 26, 2010 1:52 pm

The Good Guys is a great show.
I’ve always wondered why the basic rejoinder is not: “How will we know when climate is perfect? And if we ever happen to stumble across this climate utopia, how do we keep it from changing then?”

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