Just in time for Obama to announce it, and it only cost the USA 100 billion dollars. Thanks Hillary.
UPDATE: Statistician William Briggs points out in an email to me that he mentioned in an essay here that Lord Monckton had predicted this sort of outcome a month ago:
The forces of darkness will realize that some deal is better than no deal. Lord Monckton, on a guest appearance on the Glenn Beck program a month ago, had it right. He predicted the early stalemate, but said it would end at the last possible minute, after an all-hours marathon session:
From which the bureaucrats would emerge, their ties over their heads, where they will announce, “We’ve done it. We’ve come to an agreement.”
Leaders and ministers from 28 countries including Australia have outlined a draft accord to fight global warming.
The details of the draft are not known yet but the move came hours before some 130 world leaders were set to convene in the dying hours of the climate summit at Copenhagen.
Representatives from key blocs, covering both rich and developing countries, embarked on late-night negotiations in a desperate bid to hammer out a draft climate change agreement.
UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon was also participating in the talks, which continued into this morning.
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, French President Nicolas Sarkozy and Brazilian President Inacio Lula da Silva were all seen as the talks got underway shortly after 11pm in Copenhagen.
Among industrialised countries, the participants were Norway, Russia, Spain, Britain, the US, Denmark, Australia, Germany, France, Sweden and Japan.
Representing small island states were the Maldives and Grenada, with Sudan, Algeria, Ethiopia and Lesotho from Africa. Sudan is also the leader of the G77 group of 130 developed countries, Algeria heads the Africa Group, and Lesotho leads the bloc of Least Developed Countries.
Major emerging present economies included China, India, Brazil, South Africa and Mexico. Besides Brazil, other countries in which deforestation is a major source of greenhouse gas emissions include Colombia and Indonesia.
There are two transnational groupings included: the European Commission and the Secretary-General of the United Nations.
More than 130 heads of state and government will convene today for the final day of the climate summit talks.
AFP
h/t to WUWT reader Patrick Davis
Lord help us all.
Glad to see that the Canadian government was not there…
In any case, looks like lots of those people will have to look for a new job in the years to come… TRAITORS! They are the real science-deniers.
Perhaps it was inevitable. The lure of tax revenue – free money for nothing – is simply too much for our governments to resist.
Whew! The planet will be fine now. Right?
Where is Obama going to get the 100 billion per year? Us? No way. I’ll never contribute a nickel for this piece of work.
Of what value is an agreement that won’t be honored anymore than the 1st Kyoto agreement was. This is such a farce.
The U.S Senate hasn’t approved it. It means nothing to America.
well then, here come the lawsuits
But where is she going to get the $100 billion?
$100B? Peanuts. We’re into AIG for more than that!
Easy to spend 100billion/year of other peoples money based on falsified data from CRU and GISS. This is a historical event.
You have to feel sympathy for the poor fools. They’ve got to conclude some sort of face-saving “deal,” regardless of how meaningless it is, or how unratifiable it is when they tele-transport back to the real world. They have to salvage something from this shambles to try and keep the momentum rolling to the next jolly shindig in Mexico.
Well, I told you so… It’s “too big to fail”. To me it makes no difference. Whatever they have come up with will be just as successful as Kyoto was. (Natch!)
I won’t bother turning on the CBC (Canadian Broadcorping Castration) tonight. They will be celebrating having saved the world. Twits.
Well, Obama has already bankrupted his once great nation. What’s a few billion more of bad debt?
Perhaps a ‘Russian Hacker’ will join forces with Brad Pitt (aka ‘Bid Pratt’) to render this fiasco moot. Stranger things have happened…
3rd party anyone? 2010, mark your calendars please…and I am begging.
I was thinking the other day how lawyers have really screwed up pretty much anything insured (healthcare, etc), and then it dawned on me…where do lawyers go when they grow up?
It is hard to beleive that our “leaders” would submit to such utter rubbish. I hope that the fact that Canada did not get mentioned in the above report was not an error of ommission. As I would certainly like our true north to remain free. Our prime minister certainly would feel the political backlash from the western prvinces in Canada and possibly the sudden and overwhelming rise of western separatism again if he was to sign any agreement giving away our right to autonomy. We (in overwhelming majority numbers) prefer a made at home solution to providing clean energy solutions. If the need is indeed at hand
I worry about state of the world given this news.
Riel Diel
The true north strong and hopefully still free
The US is in hock up to its eyeballs. The US does not actually have 100 B to give to the third world or anyone else.
$100 billion/year is small compared to projected new revenues of $300 billion/year on Obama’s carbon taxes (from carbon cap and trade legislation) alone, on top of existing federal environmental taxes, AND on top of existing local governments (state, county, city) environmental and carbon taxes. Not included there are taxes from carbon tariffs in international trade, taxes from carbon cap and trade among corporations, etc. There is BIG money in carbon rent-seeking and ecological central planning.
I would hope that H.Clinton will renounce her US citensenship, she does not represent me. period
photon without a Higgs (19:04:37) :
The U.S Senate hasn’t approved it. It means nothing to America.
You say that as if you are serious. The current collection of criminals, ivory tower idiots, influence peddlers and associated idiots in charge of your country, all overseen by the lying piece of garbage obamidiot have shown no regard for the law thus far, and you expect this to change? Dream on.
So, the western democracies, in an effort to save face in the crumbling “science” of human caused global warming, will agree to give the likes of Mugabe millions of dollars to get some sort of accord signed.
Wonder which personal swiss account this will land in.
2 words for these “World Leaders” (including Obama): PACK SAND!
So who is surprised?
This was totally in the cards… they will all looks like heroes on their return.
SMH is notoriously unreliable these days and this deal could just be “wishful” thinking on the part of green minded journalists. I’ll wait and see what actually emerges. If a deal is struck I suspect it will be short lived.
From the “Lord Monckton barred from Copenhagen conference – pushed to the ground by security” thread where I posted the link to the article, the content has changed slighty.
This was some of the content as posted by Jerome:
“JER0ME (18:49:03) :
Patrick Davis (18:42:45) :
The madness is now official:
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/climate-draft-deal-agreed-20091218-l1jo.html
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, French President Nicolas Sarkozy and Brazilian President Inacio Lula da Silva were all seen as the talks got underway shortly after 11pm in Copenhagen.
Among industrialised countries, the participants were Norway, Russia, Spain, Britain, the US, Denmark, Australia, Germany, France, Sweden and Japan.
Representing small island states were the Maldives and Grenada, with Sudan, Algeria, Ethiopia and Lesotho from Africa. Sudan is also the leader of the G77 group of 130 developed countries, Algeria heads the Africa Group, and Lesotho leads the bloc of Least Developed Countries.”
It’s now a bit different.
Thanks Anthony.
i was browsing the Harry_Read_me.txt …. had a [snip] kinda moment:
“….Had to briefly divert to trick makegridsauto into thinking it was in the middle of a full 1901-2006 update, to get CLD NetCDF files produced for the whole period to June ’06. Kept some important users in Bristol happy.
So, back to VAP. Tried dividing the incoming TMP 7 DTR binaries by 1000! Still no joy. Then had the bright idea of imposing a threshold on the 3.00 vap in the Matlab program. The result was that quite a lot of data was lost from 3.00, but what remained was a very good match for the 2.10 data (on which the thresholds were based).
I think I’ve got it! Hey – I might be home by 11. I got quick_interp_tdm2 to dump a min/max for the synthetic grids. Guess what? Our old friend 32767 is here again, otherwise known as big-endian trauma. And sure enough, the 0.5 and 2.5 binary normals (which I inherited, I’ve never produced them), both need to be opened for reading with:
openr,lun,fname,/swap_if_big_endian
..so I added that as an argument to rdbin, and used it wherever rdbin is called to open these normals……..”
/huh?
>”Kept some important users in Bristol happy.” Who is in Bristol?
>”big-endian trauma” sounds like a painful climate, or a native american injury?
>”which I inherited, I’ve never produced them” (was he channeling Obama?)
>”The result was that quite a lot of data was lost from 3.00, but what remained was a very good match for the 2.10 data (on which the thresholds were based).” Is this how they ‘lost’ original data?
The number is an annual one. The US typically pays around 20% of these things so the budget for communist ‘developing’ nations is just a bit more than NASA.
This was a foregone conclusion before COP15 opened its doors.
The days preceding today was nothing more than showmanship – in my opinion the arrangement was already agreed upon before the conference – years months and days of climate propaganda in the face of reality and basic common sense is plenty evidence of this collusion.
Im waiting for the SNL spoof
Yes, the US is up to it’s eyeballs in debt.
And this went down exactly as Monckton said it would.
Unfortunately, so it appears, did Monckton.
Exactly where is Hillary going to find $100B to do this. I don’t think that she can encumber the US — she doesn’t have the required authorization.
Just to clarify, the story (disregarding the headline) states that the agreement is in draft form and was hammered out last night to have a formal document at todays final meeting so that there can be an actual physical “this is what we propose”.
In other words, what this is, is the finalisation of a draft agreement with intent to lay it out to the rest of the delegation and try to get agreement.
Until the finalisation of todays talks, there isn’t yet an agreement, just progress towards one.
This in effect is a rebellion of the rulers against the ruled.
as I said on the other thread (sorry to repost) it’s exactly as Monckton said it would be!
This conference has some bad karma.
Jim,
We’ll borrow this money from the Chinese and pay this money…to the Chinese.
I see this in large part as yet another bailout, this time for well-connected millionaires and corporations who have invested too much in green technology. Unfortunately much of the money will probably be spent on mansions and military weapons for corrupt third world governments. I don’t mind helping the poor in these countries as long as it’s done through reputable organizations, but I do mind having my taxes used to enrich crooks and dictators, and I really, really, really mind the whole fraudulent nature of this “crisis”.
A little historical background for the last time the UN tried this:
http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA542LawoftheSeaTreaty.html
Quote of the hour… “When the energy industry and environmentalists agree on an issue, one of the two likely doesn’t fully comprehend the implications…
…and it’s probably not the environmentalists.”
Actually, that title could be taken two ways…… 😉
it’s just a draft isn’t it?
till next meeting in mexico?
fight on!
expectations were to high to fly away with nothing.
$100 billion/year is $333/person*year.
But, if only 1/3 people are actually paying for it (the working class) then that is $1000/year*person.
Add on top of that the $300 billion/year on Obama’s carbon tax.
Thats an aditional $3000/year per person.
Wow $4000/year. wow.
Is it $100B/year or $100B total? Based on some of the previous reports, I’d suspect the latter. Also, apparently this is just a draft deal, with nothing binding at this point. Regardless, why anyone would agree to give $100B to other countries for no intelligent reason is beyond me.
Just what the US economy needs… ANOTHER 100 Billion steel-toed kick in the balls.
Just think, we could have had her for PRESIDENT, YAY! Where do you think the “Stimulus Package” would have been spent??
This is Crap.
Doc
This was inevitable. There was simply too much momentum regardless of questionable science. Heaven’s, the very planet is at stake! As with everything the devil’s in the details….
Truly a sad day in history, the day Politicians and Media sold us out.
Jim (19:14:06) :
The US is in hock up to its eyeballs. The US does not actually have 100 B to give to the third world or anyone else.
++++
Don’t be silly. Of course we have $100B. What it will be *worth* by the time we give it is an entirely different question. . .
This is all about the thugs in developed countries stealing from us and transferring money to their thug buddies in 3rd world countries. That way, when we finally get to torches and pitchforks time, they’ll have a place to go and a nice stash set aside for their retirements in exile.
Crank up the printing presses boys. We need another $100 billion.
The powers that be never deviate from the script. Monckton told us this would happen. Time for another bombshell from the Russians. I can’t wait for the republican delegation and Senator Inhofe to weigh in and p@ss on their paraid.
I sincerely wish our prime minister bail himself out of this insanity.
@Mikey (19:10:24) :
“You have to feel sympathy for the poor fools. They’ve got to conclude some sort of face-saving “deal,” regardless of how meaningless it is, or how unratifiable it is when they tele-transport back to the real world. ”
Sorry Mikey. I don’t have any sympathy for them.
But I do agree they had to come out with something. Step off the plane, wave the document, smile for the camera and declare “Peace in our time.”
Hillary said that the US would contribute to the 100 Billion (how much is not specified) on the condition that China and India sign on to binding commitments (to whatever) that are open to international inspection and verification.
I can feel the planet cooling already… Oh… thats right … it already is!!!
If this much money is actually committed to the program, it’s a sure bet all the subsequent “science” will be designed to support the need for such expenditures.
IPCC will have to be changed to CYA.
The Sydney Morning Herald is the only paper carrying this story with these details. I don’t believe the report is accurate.
SMH does say “If the declaration is accepted at the summit,……”
It may not be.
Pledges by the US mean nothing.
Obama can’t unilaterally bind the United States to pay this amount of coin without it going through the Legislature first.
Atlas Shrugged, and so it starts.
Do know the golden rule? He who has the gold makes the rules. We, in the U.S., don’t have the gold.
Nonoy Oplas (19:15:34)
Projections of tax revenues are always or almost always overestimated. The reverse is true of what programs are going to cost.
The days of taking in a dollar and spending a dollar and a half are gone and replaced by an even greater gap between the two.
Well that’s good. I was getting tired of making decisions for myself…and having money…not that I have any…yeah, I’m a nobody…so, see you all in the gas chamber line ups?…I’ll bring the booze – you bring the extra socks…I’m predicting snow.
K Rudd spends our money like its worthless. As we need infrastructure, health, education etc there wont be any money left in the tin for them.
The Nationals have said Mr Rudd is acting ultra vires (beyond his legal capacity) in signing an illegal treaty that compromises our sovereignty
http://twawki.com/2009/12/15/dont-consult-the-people/
Re: L. Mielke (19:13:33)
I saw Canadian environment minister Prentice in an interview today and he indicated he would be attending the meeting. I disagree with your analysis. You seem to be forgetting that BC already has a carbon tax and that Duceppe is playing the national unity card in Quebec. I encourage you to tone down your language. This is a complex issue and it is not fair to blame regions of the country for resources they do or do not have. Best Regards.
The man-made global warming myth is not being televised by the controlled worldwide media syndicate for a reason. When socialist Europe’s people find out about the scam, the people will go bizerk, and the EU will collapse. Europeans don’t take to being lied to laying down like Americans. We take being lied to for granted. We know our MSM is only tabloid news which is why they are failing miserably and loosing viewer ship to the Internet.
I look forward to the world temperatures dropping accordingly.
it is criminal if a deal has been made and those who can should lawyer up and take the EPA to court to sort this out.
yesterday i read the following in the globe & mail and it will be fascinating to check if we now see a rush to buy carbon futures, won’t it?
14 Dec: Globe & Mail: Emissions trading market at a standstill
Last week, not a single carbon-futures contract was traded.
Indeed, the exchange has registered a mere 257 contracts that commit a buyer to deliver a specified amount of carbon-dioxide emission credits in either January, 2011, or September, 2011, the only two delivery dates traded so far…
But as global leaders now gathered in Copenhagen try to figure out how to make the world reduce its carbon emissions, North America’s key market-based system has stalled…
Ottawa is following the lead of the United States, and even with a strong agreement at Copenhagen, it will be several months at least before Congress can pass cap-and-trade legislation…
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/emissions-trading-market-at-a-standstill/article1400137/
Don’t trust anything you read in the SMH (or from AFP). They are so biased towards AGW that they would say black is white. As far as this is concerned let’s wait and see.
Not read all the posts.
The devil will be in the details, eh? I agree with whoever said, “Another Kyoto.”
I am listening to the 4 AM BBC news and it still looks pretty damn fuzzy.
No matter. This BS will go on for decades, until the glaciers start to spread over Toronto, Copenhagen and Chicago. They will STILL be whining about receding ice and rising sea levels. These b*stards just will go on forever.
And hundreds of millions of folks will still want for clean water, adequate health care, and freedom from oppression. So sad.
Time to eliminate the UN. What a waste of time and money.
The U.S. is rich and successful; prime target for guilt and extortion. Where’s the cop when you need one? Oh, that’s right, the UN’s in on the scam.
As for the last minute nature of the deal — it was all very predictable. We’ll see what the details are tomorrow. Now all Obama needs to do is to figure out how to frame it in such a way as to be able to bypass the Senate. Perhaps it’s not really a treaty, just an executive agreement?
We’re going to borrow another 100 billion from the Chinese to buy indulgences from the Tuvalusians. John Kennedy caught a tremendous raft of grief when he proposed a national budget that hit 100 billion dollars.
Congressman Boehner said that was a non-starter.
BRAVE NEW WORLD !!
Now, how can *I* profit from it …
.
.
.
Relax folks. There is a reason that Obama’s speech is scheduled for 4:00 pm on the Friday before Christmas week.
And where will Hillery be in 2020 when the UN comes looking for her 100 Billion pledge?
Chavez makes a speech about “evil capitalism” and volia, the socialists reach an agreement.
Yeah, right. Does anyone seriously think the US is going to appropriate $20 bn to ship off to third world hell holes, in the middle of a recession, in an election year? Even with the Democrats in charge?
They might as well as deposit it directly into Mugabe’s Swiss bank account, and save him the trouble of stealing it.
It’s not 100B/year. It’s 100B/year of payout to ‘developing’ communist and muslim countries, along with technology,support and a promised massive CO2 reduction from our own. Our own reduction in output is the real $$. Not this little stuff.
They’re trying to reverse our winning of the cold war.
Hillary, other democrats and some republicans are obviously working for the interests of foreign nations at the expense of ours. This is treason in my book.
100 billion
I ask the same question I ask for months now—where will the money come from?
“John in NZ (19:50:45) :
SMH does say “If the declaration is accepted at the summit,……”
It may not be.”
This is true however, Gordon Brown knows his days are numbered as the UK PM, so he will sign (No skin off his nose. Tony Bliar was smart to move aside and let someone else take the flack). Kevin Rudd believes he will run as many terms as Johnny Howard and with pressure from Mzzz Wrong and Mzzz Gillard, he will sign any agreement, and you put it so well, to step off a plane waving a bit of paper, “Look see! I saved the planet!”. Obama on the other hand, I am not sure what way he’ll go right now. It would be risky for him to make such commitments in the face of a stagnant economy and 10% unemployment. The rest of Europe will just fall in line, with China, India, Africa, Brasil etc etc, laughing all the way to the bank.
What have I been driven too! Sarah Palin is beginning to look like presidential material. Just how far do we have to lower the bar? I too am ready for a replacement party to either one, doesn’t matter which goes down the tubes.
Actually as best I can disentangle this hotchpotch nobody is really going to pay anybody anything.
A text will be agreed to set up a future fund of the said 100 billion US but that is not the same as doing so.
I may be wrong, I often am, but I suspect that actual hard cash is not going to be forthcoming.
Merely earnest protestations that it will be available will some time in the future.
As soon as the details are agreed.
Which I suspect will be never. Well time will tell.
Kindest Regards
Hillary better put Bill to work so that she can cover her $100B bet, because she sure isn’t getting it from me.
Karl Juve
Copenhagen and the new agreement to fight climate change is already working, ice extent according to JAXA has gotton above the 2008 level. [/joke] 😛
Vote my Pirate Party.
At least you know if a Pirate is gonna double cross you, you know he actually will knife you in the back first.
I would have preferred a debacle, but we have to accept that “something has to be seen to be done” so that when all these popinjays come home, they can say they achieved something; even if it is the bankrupting of their respective countries.
Alan Jones in Sydney had Richard Lindzen on his radio show a few weeks back. Lindzen reckons that even if something was passed that it would all collapse in a very few years when the truth and local politics would pressure pollies into reneging on any commitments.
Once again, hands up all those who think Robert Mugabe deserves a donation.
Still nobody? Thought so!
If the whole world agrees to reduce pollution and preserve forests, I’ll be happy – (and very suspicious of anyone complaining). I suggest going through all the documents and replacing “AGW” with “toxic pollution”.
I’d also like to see some kind of statement clearly indicating firm resolve to delay no longer in developing understanding of natural climate variations equivalent to our understanding of tides.
As for capitalism: If it works, no one has proven it to me yet – (i.e. I remain a skeptic – I’ve heard of the theory & the related computer fantasies, but I haven’t yet seen a shred of empirical evidence — please feel welcome to try to convince me otherwise, but I assure you words won’t do the job).
All the best.
This sounds like tabloid hysteria to me.
I don’t see any deal. I see nothing, really. There may be a deal, but it will likely be as worthless as Kyoto. One can only hope.
Folks, a little perspective here. Barry and Hill don’t have $100M or anything close to it. Neither one can commit us to this as treaties must be ratified by the Senate and the House must appropriate funds. It will never happen.
This is purely for the press to change the “Copenhagen Catastrophe” headlines.
CNN is having a climate change debate, if you want to call it that, it’s giving me a headache. I just took an Excedrin. I don’t know how much more of it I can take, I’ll probably have to turn it off soon.
“The U.S. is rich and successful; prime target for guilt and extortion. ”
The US is flat broke and on the verge of total economic collapse.
Ooops, $100B, not $100M, but the point is the same. This is for show.
It costs governments nothing! They do not have money. They have heaps of yours and mine!
Actually, that is $100,000,000,000 per year. There is a difference!
Pamela Gray (20:09:30) :
“What have I been driven too! Sarah Palin is beginning to look like presidential material.”
Actually Sarah Palin isn’t that bad. She has a good record and seems to be pretty honest for a politician. The worst thing about her is her accent (which makes her sound dumb) and the media editing interviews with her to make her look bad.
I guarantee that Obama has said far stupider sounding things (and with more frequency!), but that didn’t fit with the philosopher-king myth that the media wanted to portray and so they ignored such inconvenient details (just like they ignored his record of corruption and bare-knuckle politics).
Honestly, I wish we had more politicians who got their start by joining their local PTA.
This is political spin straight from Kevin Rudd..
Actually, if you read it carefully, it says that the draft is still not finalized, with only a few hours left to go and the details are still not known.
And apparently burning the US dollar is one way of combating global warming. Who knew?
It is probably much less than meets the eye.
The money happens years and years in the future, and the US part is relatively small.
This is face saving for the AGW true believers so they can declare victory.
Faster, Climategate, spill! spill!
Pamela Gray…You’ve got me laughing out loud… hard… It’s a brave new world…
Or is it the dog returning to its vomit? God help us all… Only the elections might save us… does anyone even have a strategy to stop the bleeding? OK that’s all the metaphors I have… Mike Bryant signing out…
I think I read somwhere that the ChiCom bribe is $100 billion per year (Dr Evil would be proud), but only with the US trying to talk private enterprise and other governments to put up the dough. Will this be good enough for the ChiComs, or will they want to see Obama’s “John Hancock” on the check? Can Obama get the money appropriated out of Congress? And even if he does, can he get re-elected?
It seems to me that a “$100 billion check payable to Chavez/Mugabe and such” would be Obama’s Willy Horton moment.
Most people don’t want to live under a communist regime, even less a communist world government.
Do you think Rick Perry will sign this treaty? Or Inholfe?
I would be given to say that this is a ‘meme’ (I dislike that word) story based on the original story from the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2009/12/17/17climatewire-hillary-clinton-pledges-100b-for-developing-96794.html.
Ben Cubby is a ‘greeny’ with nothing of mention in reporting other than ‘AGW scare’. If China signs then this may be interesting.
Pamela Gray (20:09:30) :
What have I been driven too! Sarah Palin is beginning to look like presidential material.
Politics would head in a very different direction if she was. And I don’t think it’s only me that sees that.
Am I the only one to suspect that this whole theater of the absurd (Africa whining and China balking, etc.) was organized in order to prop up Obama as a the hero of the hour and the leader and savior of the world? There is something suspicious about a man who comes out of obscurity to win the US presidency and the Nobel peace prize. Why do the nations of the world need a big messy meeting in Copenhagen to come up with an agreement? Is soething wrong with telephones, emails and the internet? I am deeply suspicious of the motives behind this circus.
Cromagnum (19:24:33) :
I think I’ve got it! Hey – I might be home by 11. I got quick_interp_tdm2 to dump a min/max for the synthetic grids. Guess what? Our old friend 32767 is here again, otherwise known as big-endian trauma.
…
>”big-endian trauma” sounds like a painful climate, or a native american injury?
He (/she/it) is talking about a number overflow. 32767 (ie 2^15 minus 1) is the maximum a 16bit signed integer variable can hold, so going over the ‘big end’ gives you ‘big endian’ trauma.
Sort of a joke. Not a good one, but us techies don’t get out much….. 😉
It may be face saving but if the above is instigated quite a few airlines around the world will be facing oblivion not to mention international tourism operators.
No need to panic. Its a bs deal that when analyzed will make our leaders look like idiots as opposed to heroes.
If you accept the IPCC climate models (which I dont), the reductions in emissions noted in the “deal” will still mean the globe will heat by 3C.
God help us and get out your scuba gear. lol.
Dave F (20:42:00) :
And apparently burning the US dollar is one way of combating global warming. Who knew?
There are people in US politics who do not like what America is. It’s not just the US dollar they want to burn. They would burn the Declaration of Independence and Constitution also.
Bad news: If I am reading the dispatch correctly, It isn’t $100 billions of US dollars.
“It would kick off with $US10 billion ($A11.28 billion) a year from 2010 to 2012, climbing to $US50 billion ($A56.39 billion) annually by 2015 and $US100 billion ($A112.78 billion) by 2020.”
2010-2011-2012 @ $10 billions US annually
2013-2014-2015 @ $50 billions US annually
2016-2017-2018-2019-2020 @ $100 billions US annually
$30 billions US
+$150 billions US
+$500 billions US
————————–
$680 billions US
Assuming the escalation is maxed out at each level in the first years of the escalators, the total is $680 billions of US dollars over the net decade. It’s likely going to be somewhat less as I doubt the escalator will work as above. Even so, we are looking at a huge sum of money over the next decade, even under the best of circumstances.
“Alvin (20:07:13) :
Chavez makes a speech about “evil capitalism” and volia, the socialists reach an agreement.”
It is rather ironic because KRudd747’s wife is (Or was, I think she had to give up her business interets when KRuddy became PM) a very wealthy, capitalist, businesswoman.
One rule for the elite, another for us (And they’ll tax us for the pleasure).
The article has changed yet again:
“The text also proposes a range of innovative mechanisms for raising the money, ranging from a tax on air and sea transports fuels to a tax on financial transfers.”
But I do agree, it isn’t set in concrete, yet.
This agreement was arrived at long before the conference. This has all been Kabuki theater. President Obama wouldn’t have even scheduled a trip otherwise.
Mike Bryant (20:44:59) :
does anyone even have a strategy to stop the bleeding?
Americans see the bleeding. Politicians will find that they can’t vote out the people. They will find that the people can vote them out and say “don’t let the door hit you on the way out” after they do.
LOL… Just as Lord Monckton predicted they would.
He said it had all been worked out before hand, while the street theater was in full swing for this “amazing” 11’th hour agreement….
So they have a non binding agreement to spend Billions…. Yup.
By that time this hits our hyperinflation should mean that $100M will buy a loaf of bread, give or take, so I guess from a certain perspective it really isn’t a lot of money
Hell, why not make it a trillion… it’s just paper right?
Re-visiting this statement always makes me feel better…
“Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early 21st century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a globally averaged temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and, on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate a roll-back of the industrial age”. Professor Richard Lindzen
_Jim (20:03:41) :
BRAVE NEW WORLD !!
Now, how can *I* profit from it …
.
Going by the history of past efforts by Western nations to funnel money to the LDCs for the long ongoing parade of humanitarian disasters, which, unlike AGW, have been mostly human caused, suggests there may be a very promising play in going long in Swiss bank stocks. Recent developments indicate they are due for significant increase in deposits on hand over the next several years
After reading further, remember that this is just a framework agreement. Not binding on anyone; great for scoring points and political grandstanding. There’s still the legal accord that needs to be signed next year. And that’s the one that’ll face tough going in the Senate. Maybe.
6:00AM now in Copenhagen, better get the popcorn ready.
@ Mapou (20:50:16)
I share your concern.
And let’s have true pity for “Jackson” and all like he/her who spew a deep hatred and disrespect for others who might disagree.
i have no doubt it was sarah palin saying during the campaign that she was not sure how much global warming was “man-made” that caused the MSM to try to destroy her. they failed and i hope she hangs in there. btw what is wrong with her accent? nothing.
the ‘anointed one’ was ‘chosen’ to be the pied piper to lead us all into cap’n’tax for his banking cronies who bankrolled his campaign. cap’n’tax is what it is all about, nothing else.
Nice graphic picture.
Earth’s Upper Atmosphere is Cooling
http://www.universetoday.com/2009/12/17/earths-upper-atmosphere-is-cooling/
Leon Brozyna (20:02:44) :
Perhaps it’s not really a treaty, just an executive agreement?
He isn’t Pharaoh Obama.
OT but according to Danish DMI, the Arctic ice extent (= area of >30% ice coverage) for 2009 ran well past the 2004-08 spaghetti bundle yesterday:
http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/icecover.uk.php
TheGoodLocust thegoo (20:39:15) :
“Actually Sarah Palin isn’t that bad. She has a good record and seems to be pretty honest for a politician. The worst thing about her is her accent (which makes her sound dumb)…”
Hey, I resemble that!
Lou
Alaska
I have C-Span 2 on. They are still ‘debating’ healthcare at 12:25am Washington time. Apparently there’s going to be a vote at 1:00am Washington time–35 minutes from now.
America already told politicians this past summer they don’t want this healthcare bill. But here the politicians are in December pushing to get it.
Editorial: Freeze Global Warming Regulations
http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/economic-224732-california-ab32.html
After reading several reports more closely Hillary said her offer relies on “transparency” which is a refernce to China’s willingness to “open up” it’s economy to western institutions, i.e. World Bank, with respect to the various carbon/green/sustainable programs.
China has said pretty clearly that they are only interested “co-operation that is not intrusive, that does not infringe on China’s sovereignty”
So this appears to be either:
a) A hollow promise.
b) A setup to blame China when they reject “Transparency” (read: World Bank interference)
or c) All of the above.
OT
Not sure if someone has posted this yet but:
Lateline – Plimer, Monbiot cross swords in climate debate
http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2009/12/15/2772906.htm
http://www.universetoday.com/2009/12/17/earths-upper-atmosphere-is-cooling/
Michael (21:17:20),
Thanks for that link. This snippet caught my attention:
“This finding also correlates with a fundamental prediction of climate change theory that says the upper atmosphere will cool in response to increasing carbon dioxide.”
You can win for losing with those crazy AGW storm troopers. Everything is a consequence of CO2 even when it is a consequence of decreased solar activity. Amazing.
Forgot to include this with my article.
“Coming from Hollywood may explain Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger’s disconnect with reality. In the real world, saying so doesn’t make it so. In Copenhagen this week, he made the astonishing claim that the Golden State is evidence we need not choose between a clean environment and economic growth because: “We’ve proved that over and over again in California.”
The $100B commitment by Obama will cost each tax paying American an additional $725 per year in new taxes.
tokyoboy (21:21:42) :
Thanks for the update. It is profound how the total has shot up.
Just a week ago it was -35 F in Wyoming, USA and -58 F in Siberia, Russia on the same day. In between those two locations in the Arctic.
What else is profound is how wrong Al Gore’s prediction about North Pole ice is turning out to be.
I have heard that Hillary Clinton is going to run for president in 2012. This will hurt her chances.
A document leaked from the UN, says the world will warm by about three degrees this century if the greenhouse gas cuts proposed in Copenhagen are carried out – exposing the huge gap between the rhetoric of world leaders at the conference and climate science.
“Unless the remaining gap of around 1.9 to 4.2 Gt (billion tonnes of greenhouse gases) and Parties commit themselves to strong action … global emissions will peak later than 2020 and remain on an unsustainable pathway that could lead to concentrations equal 550 ppm (parts per million of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere) with the related temperature raise 3 (degrees celcius) or above 550 ppm,” the document reads.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/world/3176327/World-will-warm-by-3-degrees-report
B. Smith (21:00:47) :
Bad news: If I am reading the dispatch correctly, It isn’t $100 billions of US dollars.
“It would kick off with $US10 billion ($A11.28 billion) a year from 2010 to 2012, climbing to $US50 billion ($A56.39 billion) annually by 2015 and $US100 billion ($A112.78 billion) by 2020.”
2010-2011-2012 @ $10 billions US annually
2013-2014-2015 @ $50 billions US annually
2016-2017-2018-2019-2020 @ $100 billions US annually
$30 billions US
+$150 billions US
+$500 billions US
————————–
$680 billions US
Assuming the escalation is maxed out at each level in the first years of the escalators, the total is $680 billions of US dollars over the net decade. It’s likely going to be somewhat less as I doubt the escalator will work as above. Even so, we are looking at a huge sum of money over the next decade, even under the best of circumstances.
++++
Congress giveth, and Congress taketh away.
I’m actually pretty sanguine about those long term kind of deals. They actually buy time for sanity to reign, imho. 3 years from now the landscape could look very different.
Looks like China is kicking in to help out the Maldives.
http://tinyurl.com/y8zmhsk
Am I watching Saturday Night Live? Al Franken is running the show in the Senate on C-Span 2.
Hopefully,
I read that accord dispatch incorrectly and the totals in my prior post are the total combined contributions from the richer nations to the poorer nations expressed in US dollars.
Still, it’s a tremendous sum of money in a decade any way you cut it.
Can anyone shed more light on this?
HOAX AND CHAINS
$680 billion? Why that’s chicken scratch for the Obama administration! What’s $680 Billion to these folks when they give out Trillions regularly for earmarks and pork. After all they only need to fire up the printing presses.
Mugabe backwards e-ba-gum that’s good for me.
Problem is the bun fight between developing nations for their share of the handout will go on for decades.
There are suggestions above that $100bn may not be available.
No problem. The true leader of the world, Robert Mugabe has shown the way.
His faithfull disciples, Brown and Obama follow in his footsteps.
If money is needed just print it.
If money is to be given away it has no value, even to the recipient.
pat (21:16:54) :
“btw what is wrong with her accent? nothing.”
I agree; nothing is inherently wrong with it, but because of it she will sound dumb. It is like how people with strong Jersey or Cockney accents sounds moronic/low-class – this may not hold true for individual speakers, but that perception will always be there.
For the record, I actually prefer Palin’s accent to Obama’s phony MLK Jr. impersonation and Michelle Obama’s morbid fascination with dressing up like deceased former First Ladies (e.g. Jackie O).
Imitation is supposed to be the most sincere form of flattery, but in these two cases I think it is the most insipid form of PR…
Photon,
That is absolutely the most disturbing thing I have ever seen in my life. Stuart Smalley chairing the Senate OMFG
I saw that guy at a conference one time… meh… as a comedian, but a complete [self snip] ass-[self snip] [self snip]-tard as a political commentator
Anybody see when I took the red pill, or was it the blue pill… arrggghhhh damn you Morpheous!!!!111
This is just the way to handle it. Make promises, suck up to everyone, don’t actually go through with it. It worked great for Kyoto, everyone but Bush understood how it works.
I wouldn’t get too excited until, and if, something is signed and we can see what it says. Nothing we can do about it anyway. My guess is that things will still be in disarray when the dust starts to settle and the great leaders assemble tomorrow (Fri). Since I am 8 hours west of GMT, I guess that could be any time now.
This is the only link I can now find to a perfect description of how I feel. Just change the names and locations a bit. Jeremy Clarkson has a way with words…
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/apparently-this-jeremy-clarkson-article-was-pulled
How about some perspective?
Boeing just had first flight on their new 787 DreamLiner. Each plane costs about $147 Million. They have pre-orders for 840… a record as I understand it. That is about $120 Billion. So, the majority of output from a company employing about 160,000 people for several years is as much as ONE year’s giveaway would be.
Or, put it this way: it’s like sending three of these shiny new aircraft outside of the country each and every day, just giving them away. Here, have a DreamLiner. We can stuff the seats with cash if you want.
Just chiming in – The Farces continue. No.1Farce is the US Administration. No.2 Farce – the UN.
Oblahmba is sealing his own fate as a one (if that long) termer. The Oblahmbacrats may well be flushed (although it’s way too early) from their offices.
The UN? The US Alarmist non-scientific agencies (NOAA, NCDC, NASA, etc.) fraudulently attempt to fuel our liability to the rest of the world through a non-existent problem (agw) and the world grabs the opportunity – who could see that coming?
Watching the copenhagen plummet & the Iranian Oblahmba puppetmaster lasted only a couple minutes, then off. When some-no-body like Mahmud can lead the greatest country in history around by the nose and join with the UN to virtually squeeze serious amounts of money from our declining standard of living is pitiful.
Science? Keep the candle burning- Hell, let’s breakout the naptha and flame the alarmist imbeciles! All the best to another “skeptic” hero – Phelim Macleer(?)! What a sense of humor – a “skeptic” in polar bear’s fur! And tips of the hat to Sen. Inhofe, Monckton, Morano, Plimer, et al who represented science there.
What a time in history and what a gas having to confront such absurd challenges. Grin and beat it.
Tyranny. We have a mad man as our “President” with his mad “Czars” running wild with the psychotic Nancy Pelosi and Scary Reid out of control striving for a Marxist utopian dream which we know can never be achieved. The American people will rise up. I believe we will defeat these neo-communists.
I’m certainly glad that the Maldives and Lesotho have more say in Canadian governance than my fellow citizens.
I must have missed out on the announcement that foreign thugocracies had been granted the right to override Canadian law.
What I find most appalling is not the stage-managed ‘last-minute’ result, involving the usual suspects – it is the call for, and waiting for Obama as the ‘great saviour’, who only has to come in and save the world.
Mind – this is not because of anything Obama has said/done: it is because this call, from ordinary people as well as leaders of the smaller countries, is very much reminiscent of the call, in Germany after WWI, for a ‘leader’ to deal with the mess and misery.
We all know how that worked out …
Well I am signing off now for the rest of Christmas season. I am deeply disappointed in the lack of rational capacity in the average citizen of the green movement. Mere Sheeple. Here is the key statement from the write up.
“On another critical issue, the draft calls for transforming the political accord and relevant UN texts into a binding treaty within six months.
If the declaration is accepted at the summit, negotiators will then transpose its objectives into the texts that have laboriously emerged over two years of negotiations under the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC).”
I have read the UNFCCC in total and find that only Mein Kamph or Das Kapital compared in terms of draconian ramifications. If they do ratify this in 6 months we are for sure doomed to slavery for an elite. But I have no faith in humanity to rise up and shake off its oppressors. I can only hope we do not allow this ratification.
Thank You WUWT for all your efforts. In the new year I’ll be back and will make a donation in the mean time. God bless you all for your efforts.
This world we live in…I hate it.
I really do.
Obamahagen (TM)
also
Obamaflation (TM)
So where is Hillary going to get $100B? Maybe she has a box of Credit Default Swaps to donate.
Just like Monckton called it. Surprise surprise.
It takes 67 votes in the senate to approve a treaty. Can you say, no thank you? Knew you could! Thankfully our forefathers recognized the value of gridlock. Even today in bailout America (it’s everyone else’s fault) $100billion is more than that to which our lopsided senate will agree.
The real tragedy is that no one has yet realised the deft hand of the Fabians behind this whole charade. It’s socialism folks, and once in power they will implement their police state as Christoper Monckton recently found to his personal cost when he was pushed and knocked out by some Danish police.
And most of you are still debating the science!
http://www.keynesatharvard.org explains how and who etc.
Paul Vaughn:
As for capitalism: If it works, no one has proven it to me yet – (i.e. I remain a skeptic – I’ve heard of the theory & the related computer fantasies, but I haven’t yet seen a shred of empirical evidence — please feel welcome to try to convince me otherwise, but I assure you words won’t do the job).
Compare South to North Korea. I’m not interested in mere words, either. So don’t bother.
[Actually I’m having a hard time believing I read what you said correctly: you’ve only seen “computer fantasies”?]
Hilary can pledge all she likes. It won’t get passed congress.
The Australian pledge will not get through Parliament either.
I totally agree tht man made GW is a scam, but some if you guys from the US need to realise your dream run has come to an end. You are the biggest consumers in the world and give nothing back to anyone else, your economy is failing due to your greed and ridiculous credit bills and the rest of the world is looking forward to your collapse. You need to stop trying to control other countries with wars and look after your own people.
They are making promises that a future administration would need to fulfill and which would require the US to borrow the money from the Chinese in order to fulfill it.
I’m not down with any agreement until they can prove there’ll be enough Victory Gin around to last a lifetime, and it must be predelivered to everyone on the Planet before I’ll assent. I’ve got principles!
Seriously, any “agreement” they get won’t do anything except aid in their own downfall.
Perhaps it is time for the UN to be dissolved. A sobering thought.
Scott Fox (21:31:35) :
“After reading several reports more closely Hillary said her offer relies on “transparency” which is a refernce to China’s willingness to “open up” it’s economy to western institutions, i.e. World Bank, with respect to the various carbon/green/sustainable programs.
China has said pretty clearly that they are only interested “co-operation that is not intrusive, that does not infringe on China’s sovereignty”
So this appears to be either:
a) A hollow promise.
b) A set-up to blame China when they reject “Transparency” (read: World Bank interference)
or c) All of the above.”
Reply:Good situation analysis Scott. China hold all the cards on this one. They are big enough to ignore any treaty, even if it has teeth, and will use the situation to their own benefit.
My vote also goes for ‘All the above’.
Don’t be surprised if Russia also pull a flanker too.
In the mean-time, here’s the latest weather at the airport:-
CHP Current Conditions
Snow
Light Snow, Low Drifting Snow
Temperature: 26° F (-3° C)
Visibility: 6 miles
Dew Point: 23° F (-5° C)
Wind: Wind direction is 50 degrees
Speed is 23 mph
Barometer Pressure: 30.00248″
Sky Conditions: Few clouds at 1400 feet.
Scattered layer at 2000 feet.
Broken layer at 4000 feet.
Last Updated: Thu Dec 17 20:50:00 PST 2009
God, I hope SMH is wrong. Sadly I’m sure it’s right. What. A. Waste. Of. Money.
How can any sane world leader vote to chuck money at idiot despots like Mugabe, Chavez et al?
Luckily here in NZ we went to Copenhagen waving our ETS piece of paper which is already law. Prime Minister John Key (John Quixote, methinks) will have some explaining to do.
It’s a perfect ploy by Hillary and Barry Obama to make this deal. It’ll fail in the Congress and they can blame the Republicans.
I would bet my house that the famous leaked memo about a rise of 3 degrees even with this accord is a fake leak… to put pressure on our idiots of so called leaders… who need leaders anyway.
“Representatives from key blocs, covering both rich and developing countries, embarked on late-night negotiations in a desperate bid to hammer out a draft climate change agreement.”
I remember P.J. O’Rourke wrote in one of his books that journalists loved to describe legislators/diplomats “hammering out” agreements, as if spending other people’s money was hard work.
So The U.S. will borrow 20 or 30 billion a year from China, and donate the money to a fund, administered by effete UN bureaucrats, which will be used to bribe corrupt African kleptocrats, or to build infrastructure projects for the Chinese in Africa (the Chinese are now building quite a commercial presence in Africa).
This sounds like a good deal for China. No wonder they support it.
I was interested to learn that the next UN climate party will be in Mexico. Note to self: corner the mexican market in salt and snow galoshes – they are undoubtedly due for a freak snow-storm.
Now that many of you have witnessed and observed first hand the madness we are dealing with, because you lived through it personally in the past month, you are ready to have a more open mind to more esoteric understandings.
Bookmark this for future viewing.
The Calling by Maxwell Igan – Full HD Version
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=101444991
See reviews here;
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/119381
JT (22:46:31) :
They are making promises that a future administration would need to fulfill and which would require the US to borrow the money from the Chinese in order to fulfill it.
Correct me if I am misinterpreting, but isn’t China essentially getting free money out of this? Seems the US government is racking up debt so fast, the Chinese have started taking the same approach to ‘printing’ debentures the Fed has to ‘printing’ dollars.
No deal has been done and they are still light years from agreeing to binding targets. It’ll get caned. It’s a bit of damage control if anything. They need a posture to take to New Mexico and this will be it.
Fairfax Publications (owners of SMH) have been the most pro-AGW of Australian media outlets. Take this with a grain of salt.
Bear in mind that Australian AGW’s idea of a good sell is to show a letter from a concerned 6 year old girl. Google “Rudd Gracie” (Rudd being our Prime Minister; Gracie being the 6 year old)
Has this story been pulled? I can’t see it on SMH now.
Ray (23:01:22)
I’d hope so: Even in a closed experiment, 1 million ppm of c02 in a jar doesn’t go much beyond 4C above 35C when exposed to a shortwave heat source, and most of that temperature rise is attributed to the property of gas in a closed chamber exerting more pressure than it normally would when heated by a shortwave source.
Of course, leave 1Mill ppm of c02 at normal temperature (where it absorbs heat) and it will be the same temp as normal air at 15C – even in a closed experiment
Again Richard North at:-
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2009/12/going-for-money.html
is absolutely bang on target about this heavily stage managed ‘deal’.
“The reality, however, was broken by the New York Times which “leaked” (no scruples here, unlike certain e-mails) a draft UN document which purported to show that even if all the highest promises on emission cuts were kept, the temperature would still go screaming up to 3°c above the baseline – whatever that is – risking, according to the warmists, “runaway global warming”.
“You have to work very hard to find out why the world leaders seem so unconcerned about this prospect, the game being given away by the Zimbabwe Herald whose journalists obviously haven’t sussed the importance of what they are writing.
“From this august journal, we learn that the negotiations were “rescued from the brink of collapse” when delegates agreed to compromise on the two contending positions by keeping the Kyoto Protocol and devising another agreement to encompass the United States and its allies who have refused to ratify Kyoto.
“This is nothing to do with the headline billions and all the rest. Nope, the deal is that the Kyoto Protocol is saved – which is what all the fuss was really about. That safeguards the carbon market and opens the way for it to expand to the $2-trillion level by the year 2020. Against that, even €100 billion is chump-change – you can buy countries with that sort of money.”
(See the link above for the full article).
And of course, it is another bit step towards their World Government goal.
Sarah Palin
Interesting take y’all Yanks have on this lady; with (it appears) a need to preface your good feelings for her with an apology and a disclaimer that, sheesh! you’ll never believe this of me, but sometimes I (gee, golly) feel she may even be real…
An Australian, I picked up on her when she moved that pipeline from dream toward reality. At that point she joined the greats for me, one of those who dreamed mighty dreams and then levered them onto the mainline. Kind of vision splendid which has always moved mankind towards the stars.
She may or may not ever make POTUS; but she has put a spirit into the dreams of mankind just when we needed it, and therefore I acknowledge I owe her… and no apology.
MARIAN WILKINSON ENVIRONMENT EDITOR COPENHAGEN: Kevin Rudd has warned leaders at the United Nations climate summit that they are on the verge of failing the children of the world and future generations if a compromise is not reached in the last day of the historic gathering.
This is from a few minutes ago.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this were a choreographed cliff-hanger.
Checking all other msm outlets here in OZ and all dead quiet on the Copenhagen front. Put it down to wayward exuberance by SMH. Relax everywhere!
“Patrick Davis (21:02:53) :
“Alvin (20:07:13) :
Chavez makes a speech about “evil capitalism” and volia, the socialists reach an agreement.”
It is rather ironic because KRudd747’s wife is (Or was, I think she had to give up her business interets when KRuddy became PM) a very wealthy, capitalist, businesswoman.”
She was forced to sell her Australian interests but used this money to expand her overseas businesses. She is rather wealthy.
The US already owe China $800 billion that they can’t pay back. They gotta be bluffing, for sure. Or they will have to borrow the money from China to compensate China, and China know that (or take it from their taxpayers). China is already concerned that it may never get it’s $800 billion back, so I doubt they will buy more American Bonds. We should know China of all nations will not cave in to US and UN demands for independent monitoring of CO2 emissions. I’d say China knows CO2 does not damage the environment, but they will take the money anyway as long as it comes from the US taxpayers (it’s one way of getting their money back). In summary no agreement will be made regardless of what the MSM reports. Copenhagen is an embarrassment. It certainly puts it on the map to be known as the City of Global Lies.
@ Cromagnum (19:27:38) :
“Im waiting for the SNL spoof”
Yeah, a Climategate/Copenhagen SNL spoof. That should be good. Can’t wait to see it.
@ Mike D. (22:28:44) :
“Obamahagen (TM)
also
Obamaflation (TM)”
Oh, those are good. Especially like the “Obamahagen.” I think this whole Copenhagen thing is going to go down in the books as a huge failure on all levels. Can start now by calling it Obamahagen along with Climategate, which still has much more life in it too.
Robbery of the willing fools. And no one in the world has proven himself as foolish as Obama. A league of his own.
NY Daily News:
U.S. to contribute to $100B climate fund to help developing countries: Hillary Clinton
By Soraya Roberts
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Originally Published:Thursday, December 17th 2009, 7:36 AM
Updated: Thursday, December 17th 2009, 10:57 AM
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2009/12/17/2009-12-17_us_will_contribute_to_100b_climate_fund_for_developing_countries_hillary_clinton.html#ixzz0a1WcZeIt
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/climate-draft-accord-agreed-20091218-l1jo.html
I’ve found it. Why not front page? This morning, failure to agree was the greatest catastrophe ever faced by the human race (Tim Costello, ABC). Is it because it’s “draft agrreement”? ie, just a sham?
Paul Vaughan (20:20:05) :
“,,,As for capitalism: If it works, no one has proven it to me yet – (i.e. I remain a skeptic – I’ve heard of the theory & the related computer fantasies, but I haven’t yet seen a shred of empirical evidence — please feel welcome to try to convince me otherwise, but I assure you words won’t do the job)…”
Capitalism stopped working after the 1929 great depression, when banks used their control of currency to destroy internal and external markets for their own benefit. Without stable currencies, capitalism will continue to fail and the only remedy is to get rid of banks and fiat money. Once trading with commodity money is resumed, capitalism will succeed once more.
davidc (23:25:22) : Wrote
“MARIAN WILKINSON ENVIRONMENT EDITOR COPENHAGEN: Kevin Rudd has warned leaders at the United Nations climate summit that they are on the verge of failing the children of the world and future generations if a compromise is not reached in the last day of the historic gathering.”
Kevin Rudd has warned leaders at the United Nations climate summit that You are on the verge of failing Your Own children and Your future generations Wealth if a compromise is not reached in the last day of the historic gathering.
There, fixed it for you Kevin.
Louis Hissink (22:32:54) :
It’s socialism folks, and once in power they will implement their police state
They’ll try for sure. By now I sure don’t have to read about the Fabians to know that. But at least here in the U.S.A. the “Socialists”, so to speak, needed to have their control of the Military and Police as their Enforcers already in place, imo, which was impossible no matter how many people brayed incessantly about their fear that Bush would become a Dictator – an idea which was produced either by completely unhinged paranoia, or lesser projection, or groupthink following an intentionally constructed meme by some Political Scientists.
In other words, I don’t think the “Socialists” are going to get the power they know they need simply by being elected, though this is what Marx apparently thought was possible. Maybe the Socialist “Political Scientists” also believe that. If so, it has made them weak. Because all I see from them here is the workings of a completely failing Socialist Fantasyland, which is strongly mobilizing people against it. And, especially the Military here, are just not going to get behind the Socialists.
But there’s going to be some kind of big fight going forward, and they are going to lose. I go day by day.
Re: J. Peden (22:35:48)
You’ve gotten a little carried away in extrapolating my words …but I understand that folks around here are alarmed today. Note to comedians: Throw the troops a bucket of ice.
America has been a rotten shell for nearly a century, I’m not sure why you are all so surprised.
Palin isnt the answer, the republicans are as much responsible for the degredation of America as the Democrats.
Does the 100 b come with S&H Green Stamps!
The BBC take is not so drastic:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8419769.stm
.
Important concessions
Despite many expressions of concern about projections of climate change, finance has emerged as an issue more likely to make or break a deal than emission pledges, the BBC’s Richard Black reports from Copenhagen.
COPENHAGEN CLIMATE SUMMIT
Delegates from 193 nations are in Copenhagen to negotiate an agreement on curbing greenhouse gas emissions, in order to prevent dangerous climate change
Developing nations want rich nations to cut emissions by at least 25% by 2020 – rich nations are reluctant to go so far and want developing countries to curb emissions too
The US will not accept legally binding emissions cuts unless China does the same. China has been vague on allowing international scrutiny of its emission cuts
Ongoing disagreement on how funds to mitigate and adapt to climate change will be provided. Poor nations want direct aid, while the West favours schemes like carbon trading
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said her administration was prepared to help establish funding of $100bn a year for developing countries if a deal emerged that met US requirements.
The key US demand is “transparency” from China, seen as a must if the US Senate is to pass legislation controlling emissions .
Two important points:
US will help in establishing funding of 100bn$.
“Transparency” from China means inspection, inspection means inspectors, and if China does not know this meas CIA entry it is not the two thousand year old imperium surviving in various guises against inroads from the west, even missionaries. I am curious how they will double talk their way out of this.
The very reason for the squabbling that preceded this deal is simply that no one had shown up with a big enough bribe. Obama is a very slick politician. He didn’t bring the money himself. He sent Hillary to find out if this bribe was big enough. God knows what she may have promised behind closed doors. Now he can just fly in and take the praise. Do either of them REALLY have the authority to offer this without congress? Questionable. Also, I must say, this act was psychotic. Truly psychotic.
“There is neither happiness nor misery in the world, there is only the comparison of one state to another, nothing more”
Paul Vaughan, then I apologize for my extrapolation.
Of course it’s mind games, obama wasn’t going.. then he was.. then he might.
I think people should stop beating around the bushes when talking about the tyranny that is developing here. I know that this is meant to be a science blog, but what we’re witnessing here has nothing to do with science. Perhaps you should give those “NWO conspiracy nuts” your open mind for a little while, then you might realise that what they’ve been saying for years is happening right now.
[I hope I’m misreading Dilby, too.]
Regarding:
Dilby (22:42:52) :
I totally agree tht man made GW is a scam, but some if you guys from the US need to realise your dream run has come to an end. You are the biggest consumers in the world and give nothing back to anyone else, your economy is failing due to your greed and ridiculous credit bills and the rest of the world is looking forward to your collapse. You need to stop trying to control other countries with wars and look after your own people.
What the?????? Give nothing back? Failing due to greed? ?????
Oh! now I get it! you just came out of the Brad Pitt trailer, didn’t you?
The words “Redistribution of Wealth” is meaningless to me. It’s a divisive issue used and implanted within your minds weather it happens or not, in order to keep you divided from others by having you simply thinking about those words, so they repeat them over and over again.
A natural redistribution of wealth would occur if everyone simply had to play by the same rules and those rules were enforced.
The best rule book I have ever come across in my lifetime is called “The US Constitution”.
Those rules are no longer enforced and different rules are made up for different people or groups of people as we go along. Sort of like Calvinball.
J. Peden (00:17:55) “Paul Vaughan, then I apologize for my extrapolation.”
Find me a permanent seat on the gravy train and all may be forgiven.
Presumably the climate grants will be issued in US dollars … which may or may not be acceptable to all:
“East Timor said on Thursday its $5 billion sovereign wealth fund plans to diversify away from U.S. Treasuries and invest in other government bonds as well as property … “Our savings entrusted to the U.S. Treasury could be literally wiped out, throwing our people into even greater poverty and desperation,” said President Jose Ramos-Horta in a speech in Singapore, pointing to the growing U.S. deficit and weakening U.S. dollar as reasons for the move.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSSGE5BG0CK20091217
i feel sorry for the future.. but not much.. i feel sorry for these leaders, but not much, When the world is controlled by these idiots. when a persons worth is linked to how much carbon the produce.
If you make more carbon than you take in, you will be fined, if you carry on, you will be forced to work in green industries, with only vegetarian foods (as meat eating creates methane etc). those deniers will be sent to re education camps, to work on behalf of the true green elite. And if they still deny it..
Soon a persons worth will be based on how much carbon they create, or use. then once a person is considered a profit.lost then all is lost
jlc (22:24:28) : said
I’m certainly glad that the Maldives and Lesotho have more say in Canadian governance than my fellow citizens.
I must have missed out on the announcement that foreign thugocracies had been granted the right to override Canadian law.
If Canada is a member of the World Trade Organization than you do have a thugocracy writing your laws. It is called “harmonization” and the WTO was given “teeth” to enforce it. http://www.publiceyeonscience.ch/images/the_wto_and_the_politics_of_gmo.doc
Cromagnum (19:24:33) :
I think I’ve got it! Hey – I might be home by 11. I got quick_interp_tdm2 to dump a min/max for the synthetic grids. Guess what? Our old friend 32767 is here again, otherwise known as big-endian trauma.
…
>”big-endian trauma” sounds like a painful climate, or a native american injury?
JER0ME (20:53:57) :
“He (/she/it) is talking about a number overflow. 32767 (ie 2^15 minus 1) is the maximum a 16bit signed integer variable can hold, so going over the ‘big end’ gives you ‘big endian’ trauma.”
No, this is about how numbers are stored in a binary file. A big-endian number is stored similarly to how we write them, i.e. with the most significant bytes first. Some processors (i.e. Intel) store numbers in little-endian order with the least signigicant digits first. He is trying to read a file written on a computer with an opposite endian convention. (He is reading the number -2, stored as 255 followed by 254 in big-endian and as 254 followed by 255 in little-endian. The number -1 is stored as 255 followed by 255, so it doesn’t matter what order you read it in.)
Note that the correct way to put it is that the US will help raise the annual UN $100B, not give everything in this package of course.
Morover, the present-day life standards in the US and Europe can only be sustained because the rest of the world is “underpaid”. Imagine how much your TV would cost if it weren’t built in Mexico or China. If those people had an almost similar income, to do the same job as US or Eur workers do, then prices would go bananas. And so would our buying power (but in the other direction of course). To summarize: we are rich mainly because we maintain other countries poorer than us. I cannot support such a way of doing economy…
Bill Marsh innocently asks @ 19:04:13:
Of what value is an agreement that won’t be honored anymore than the 1st Kyoto agreement was.
Money, Bill, money! With the Oil-for-food scam monies all gone, Pachauri and the bureaucrats, and Mao Strong types need another source of revenue.
Dilby (22:42:52) :said
I totally agree tht man made GW is a scam, but some if you guys from the US need to realise your dream run has come to an end. You are the biggest consumers in the world and give nothing back to anyone else, your economy is failing due to your greed and ridiculous credit bills and the rest of the world is looking forward to your collapse. You need to stop trying to control other countries with wars and look after your own people.
Clarify WHO the actual villians are, the villian are not the American people They are the red herring the real villians use as a scape goat. The real villians are the ultra wealthy International cabal of Central Bankers. Note how Hillary is trying to get the World Bank into China and using the money of the American people to do it. Note how the “leaked Denmark papers” had the World Bank in control instead of the UN.
In 1910 the Central Bankers of Europe send Paul Warburg to the USA to get a Central bank established here in the USA. After the Federal Reserve was formed the next step was the formation of the World Bank and IMF who meet in annually at David Rockefeller’s home in Westchester NY. “Rockefeller hosts an annual luncheon at the family’s Westchester County Pocantico estate for the world’s appointed finance ministers and central bank governors.” original at: http://wikicapital.org/briefs/2008/07/the-worlds-most-secretive-billionaires/
a copy at: http://therearenosunglasses.wordpress.com/some-of-our-dark-overlords/
You have to follow the Money to understand what is actually happening. Check out (in the order of ease of reading)
Structural Adjustment Program (World Bank and International Monetary Fund) http://www.whirledbank.org/development/sap.html
The Creature from Jekyll Island, The Federal Reserve, talk by G. Edward Griffin: http://www.bigeye.com/griffin.htm
“Secrets of the Federal Reserve by Eustace Mullins: http://www.apfn.org/apfn/reserve.htm
A PRIMER ON MONEY by the House Banking and Currency Committee http://famguardian.org/Subjects/MoneyBanking/Money/patman-primer-on-money.pdf
Breaking News: BBC 09:50 GMT:
“A draft political agreement drawn up by a small group of countries including the UK, US and Australia was rejected during overnight discussions.
Delegates described the situation as “confusing” and “desperate”.
As well as the leaders’ session, talks are scheduled on texts that sources say remain full of fundamental divisions. ”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/science/nature/8420016.stm
—————
Hey, maybe the Copenhagen will not fail completely but any promised targets will fail, just like Kyoto, thereby committing us to “Catastrophic Anthopogenic Global Warming.” ;-0
http://www.arec-ru.com/component/content/article/3-kyoto-protocol/2
RhudsonL (23:54:25) :
Does the 100 b come with S&H Green Stamps!
I remember S&H Green Stamps. God, I am old. Let’s just hope that are children don’t have to remember Carbon Credits.
Aargh! “are children” S/B “our children”.
Dilby (22:42:52) : I totally agree tht man made GW is a scam, but some if you guys from the US need to realise your dream run has come to an end. …
Dream run, Dilby? No credit for innovation, sheer guts, great visions?
This Australian believes they, and people like them around the world, wrested this dream from an essentially hostile envronment and created an Eden. Only those of mean mind and bitter heart can dispute this.
Let not these sour souls wrest plague from plenty as, for example, has been done in Zimbabwe.
How ironic that’s it’s snowing in Copenhagen …
“Rob Vermeulen (01:29:52) :
Note that the correct way to put it is that the US will help raise the annual UN $100B, not give everything in this package of course.
Morover, the present-day life standards in the US and Europe can only be sustained because the rest of the world is “underpaid”. Imagine how much your TV would cost if it weren’t built in Mexico or China. If those people had an almost similar income, to do the same job as US or Eur workers do, then prices would go bananas. And so would our buying power (but in the other direction of course). To summarize: we are rich mainly because we maintain other countries poorer than us. I cannot support such a way of doing economy…”
Off shoring, best shore, this has been going on for many many years, even the NSW State govn’t now has it’s state uniforms made in China. But yes, you are right. I see the Pillipines next in line after China/India.
J. Peden (00:24:30) :
[I hope I’m misreading Dilby, too.]
This is supposed to be a science blog, but this particular thread is highly political.
Please listen to me. In the same way that the mass media are shielding the population of the US from learning the truth of AGW , they are shielding them from learning about the great animosity in most of the world against the US policies after the fall of the iron curtain, i.e. 1989.
People who were staunch supporters of US policies during the cold war, were mightily disillusioned with its policies after the end of it.
You may not see it from in there, but the policies were and are imperial policies of total control. What other country has over 250 military bases on foreign soil, when there is no longer a communist takeover threat? except for trying to impose complete control the world over?
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, based on chasing red herrings but really trying to secure geopolitical control over energy routes, were bloody, destroyed the countries and the people. We, who are close to the middle east, have had our eyes opened to the brutality and hypocricy of preaching democracy with bombs , and coddling up to dictatorships the world over otherwise.
Do not get me wrong. I would prefer a US imperium to a chinese one any day.The US lost its chance of becoming a peaceful imperium after 1989. It had already conquered with McDonald’s and Holywood most of the world, it could have had everybody eating out of its hand, imo. Instead it decided on bloody invasions to protect its energy interests.
The bad thing of trying to wed capitalism with imperial ambitions is what you see written on the wall now for the west: outsourcings and borrowings from China make China the rising star, and the US will join the list of short lived imperia, following the fate of the UK imperium much faster.
Quote from an Australian Green parliament member attending CopenHoaxen.
“The most likely outcome from CopenHoaxen is a glorious photo op tomorrow”
more from BBC
Leaders have gathered for the final scheduled day of the UN climate summit, amid uncertainty over the shape of any eventual deal.
A draft political agreement drawn up by a small group of countries including the UK, US and Australia was rejected during overnight discussions.
Delegates described the situation as “confusing” and “desperate”.
As well as the leaders’ session, talks are scheduled on texts that sources say remain full of fundamental divisions.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8420016.stm
sounds fine for me.
Don’t worry: it will never clear the approval by Congress and the Senate.
So, it will be an “agreement” in limbo for several years to come, and by then everybody but a few fools will realise that it was all hot air.
Good God anna – you really have an axe to grind against the ‘imperial agressor’ the USA.
More Iraqi’s died under Saddam’s rule during the Clinton years than died during the Iraq liberation. Liberating 50 million muslims from brutal regimes is meaningless because the capitalists only wanted the oil routes.
Never mind the US pretty much got shut out of Iraq oil contracts…but still….I’m sure it was a war for oil in your twisted mind. Never mind the facts. You’ve got a ‘fudge factor’ you can use whenever the facts don’t support your grand evil capitalist conspiracy theory.
How is the weather there in Hopenchangen?
It’s not just a train wreck, It’s failed in a way that lays bare the real motives of half the attendees. Six months is a long time at the moment and the landscape for New Mexico will even more challenging.
At Last! A mainstream Internet news sheet, The First Post, features an excellent article by Alexander Coburn in today’s issue that is a two-page precis of the deceit of the AGW camp. Succinct, well written and well researched, just a week late, dammit.
Paul Vaughan (20:20:05) : “As for capitalism: If it works, no one has proven it to me yet – (i.e. I remain a skeptic – I’ve heard of the theory & the related computer fantasies, but I haven’t yet seen a shred of empirical evidence — please feel welcome to try to convince me otherwise, but I assure you words won’t do the job)…”
so why would anyone bother?
does the massive expansion of wealth and prosperity over the last 30 to 40 years, entirely due to free trade and capitalism, convince? Note also that this massive expansion has been shared amongst everyone participating, and the poor are not getting poorer.
does the increase in global GDP from a measly $7 trillion in 1978 to $47 trillion in 2008 mean anything?
meanwhile, in countries that reject capitalism, like North Korea, Cuba, Albania, somehow this massive wealth creation has failed to materialise.
I submit that the empirical evidence is overwhelming.
and yet in Copenhagen…I despair
All the best.
I believe the president has just said, in effect, that he has no doubt that the global warming problem is real and now is the time for all nations of the world to agree to join together to take effective verified action to address this problem.
I cannot fault the president for taking this position as it is supported all the leading scientific organizations and most of the elite news media in the world.
I would only caution the president that his administration should have a backup position for the case that new revelations or evidence should prove that IPCC climate science is unsound. Based on my current understanding of the issue, I think that this is quite likely to be the case.
From the BBC again, Richard Black’s blog as he is live blogging the event’s last day:
as of 11:42 CET:
Sticking points seem to be
[quote]Many scientists analyses – including the IPCC’s suggest it should be no later than 2020, possibly 2015. The initial draft of this agreement said “as soon as possible”.
(firm date wanted by many)
On finance, developing countries as seeking for a specific pledge on how much of the $100bn by 2020 figure that Hillary Clinton endorsed yesterday should come from public finances – as yet, there’s no number, and there’s concern that funds from the “innovative mechanisms” suggested for private financing would not be reliable.
Some developing countries are also determined to have a commitment to achieving a legally binding treaty with a specific time-frame – a year at most.[/quote]
Paul Vaughan (23:45:08) :
Re: J. Peden (22:35:48)
You’ve gotten a little carried away in extrapolating my words …but I understand that folks around here are alarmed today. Note to comedians: Throw the troops a bucket of ice.
Not sure what you mean, Paul, either with your original remark (about capitalism not working), or here, saying that pointing to the difference between South and North Korea as evidence that capitalism work is “a little carried away in extrapolating” your words. I think your first remark was too cryptic to reveal what you really think, or meant to imply. In any case, it would be a huge task to debate whether capitalism works, beginning with what one thinks “capitalism” is, and what one means by “works.” I do believe that capitalism has a tendency to sow the seeds of its own destruction, but in a Schumpeterian sense, not a Marxist sense. But I’m not as pessimistic as either Marx or Schumpeter about capitalism. I think the history of Europe in the past 50 years disproves both of their visions as to the evolution of capitalism. In the end, as I age, I’ve come to appreciate the vision of capitalism promoted by Milton Friedman. Unlike the deterministic visions of Marx or Schumpeter, Friedman makes the case, in my view, that capitalism does work. But has anybody ever really tried it? That’s the real question.
*****************
anna v (02:29:02) :
J. Peden (00:24:30) :
[I hope I’m misreading Dilby, too.]
This is supposed to be a science blog, but this particular thread is highly political.
Please listen to me. In the same way that the mass media are shielding the population of the US from learning the truth of AGW , they are shielding them from learning about the great animosity in most of the world against the US policies after the fall of the iron curtain, i.e. 1989.
People who were staunch supporters of US policies during the cold war, were mightily disillusioned with its policies after the end of it.
You may not see it from in there, but the policies were and are imperial policies of total control. What other country has over 250 military bases on foreign soil, when there is no longer a communist takeover threat? except for trying to impose complete control the world over?
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, based on chasing red herrings but really trying to secure geopolitical control over energy routes, were bloody, destroyed the countries and the people. We, who are close to the middle east, have had our eyes opened to the brutality and hypocricy of preaching democracy with bombs , and coddling up to dictatorships the world over otherwise.
Do not get me wrong. I would prefer a US imperium to a chinese one any day.The US lost its chance of becoming a peaceful imperium after 1989. It had already conquered with McDonald’s and Holywood most of the world, it could have had everybody eating out of its hand, imo. Instead it decided on bloody invasions to protect its energy interests.
The bad thing of trying to wed capitalism with imperial ambitions is what you see written on the wall now for the west: outsourcings and borrowings from China make China the rising star, and the US will join the list of short lived imperia, following the fate of the UK imperium much faster.
*****************
We in the US don’t like some of what Europe, China, Russia, tyrants in Africa and South America, and elsewhere do. They don’t change because we want them to, why should we change because others don’t approve of what we do? It is perfectly reasonable for the US to look after its interests in oil. Of course we should be developing nuclear power to beat the band, but that’s a different issue. We helped rebuild Europe after the last WW and US dollars have gone all over the world. We have not obligation to give until we have no more. In fact, we have no obligation to do anything other than what we want. Until other countries don’t feel that way, there is no reason we SHOULD feel that way.
So they going to issue light sabers to the liars club?
J Peden,
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you are an idiot.
We are leaving, and have left, countries that we invaded as fast as possible, too fast to actually set up an ‘imperium’.
We set up bases too small to invade, barely large enough to defend.
We are not charging tribute, fees or taxes or even special pricing on oil.
Now we have a President embarrassed of American power, dedicated to not winning a war.
Read history of how real empires are set up and run and then get back to me.
When and if the Chinese actually go imperial, not only wil this conversation not take place, it will not need to because you will, if still alive, see the difference so plainly that even you will notice it.
Dilby (22:42:52) :
I totally agree tht man made GW is a scam, but some if you guys from the US need to realise your dream run has come to an end. You are the biggest consumers in the world and give nothing back to anyone else, your economy is failing due to your greed and ridiculous credit bills and the rest of the world is looking forward to your collapse. You need to stop trying to control other countries with wars and look after your own people.
and China are just going to take over, my friend. They will (have already) adopt capitalism and will happily screw the world once they are in a position to. At least the US was just posturing and being a bully. These guys mean business.
I’m just glad I’m in Oz where we have things they need like coal, gas, iron and uranium (and solar once we get the idea). The US has …… ?
Toho (01:08:26)
Sorry about my assumptions on big-endian, I think you are absolutely correct. I do recall something along those lines in pre-historic lectures. I’m getting old….
***************
Paul Vaughan (20:20:05) :
As for capitalism: If it works, no one has proven it to me yet – (i.e. I remain a skeptic – I’ve heard of the theory & the related computer fantasies, but I haven’t yet seen a shred of empirical evidence — please feel welcome to try to convince me otherwise, but I assure you words won’t do the job).
***********
I would submit to you that the ascendancy of the US is proof that capitalism works. Is it perfect? No. Can it be twisted and mismanaged by government? Yes. And is has been. I’m not arguing for “pure” Ayn Rand-style capitalism. Some regulation is necessary and I do believe a society should help those who can’t help themselves. So, in my way of thinking, capitalism is good and does result in economic vitality if it is managed well. It is certainly better on average for citizens than socialism or communism.
A draft political agreement drawn up by a small group of countries was rejected during overnight discussions.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8420714.stm
Hey!
All you’re seeing here is Animal Farm, 21st century style.
All the true environmentalists left, kicked out by Napoleon and his sheep.
After calling the oil companies the greatest evil since Farmer Jones, they’ve invited them back to help them run the party. Go read Orwell’s last sentences again. Recognise anything there?
‘There is nothing new under the sun’. The good book says it and it’s the way of the world.
All power is about is assertion of preferential rights. Those who have it determine what is ‘moral’, ‘just’, ‘acceptable’, ‘treasonous’ etc etc etc.
A few people write about idealised power situations.
They rarely, if ever, exist.
But those without power often dream that they could, to keep enough optimism to bring their kids up healthy and happy.
The one question is: where will litigation on climate fraud get us?
It’ll just modify son-of-Copenhagen into a new mask.
Where will carbon credits get us?
A fraud to make 2008 seem like a stroll in the park. It’s the most outrageous way to print money yet known.
You ‘create’ a carbon credit, you’ve created an ‘asset’ with ‘value’. Out of thin air.
They called it ‘quantitative easing’ post credit-crunch.
I call it GRAND LARCENY.
No doubt Mr Mugabe will be salivating at the prospect. After bankrupting his country and murdering all opposition. Now he’s got a new wheeze.
I’m a bit surprised about Hugo Chavez. Venezuela has done well from oil. Even sold it to you folks in America, which he taunted you all about a bit back. What does he care – he can sell some more oil AND sell some carbon credits too. I guess he deserves a bit of gloating – he’s taken a bit of heat from the Yanks over time…..
What I hope this conference acts as a spur to, though, is sentient, decent, upstanding, honest folks realising that THEY have to mobilise if they want to counter this. Weblogs have some influence, but they don’t yet have the influence of a 1 million+ membership, do they?
Every survey out there shows 50% of folks DON’T believe in global warming. Right or wrong, that’s a hell of a receptive audience to go after, isn’t it??
Provided that any such movement rejects socialism, rejects fascism and stands for good old-fashioned common sense, honesty, decency, rewarding hard work, invention and satisfying customer needs, it can still prevail.
What’s sure though: all the forces who infiltrate every organisation since time immemorial will infiltrate that one if they thought it ever reached a size to constitute a threat.
If I were building it, though, it would be a loose association of local/regional organisations. I would never presume to tell Americans how to run their local communities, although I would point out if something they did was damaging MY community.
I wouldn’t tell Americans what sustainable energy is best for California, Iowa, Montana, Tennessee or Wisconsin, because each is different to where I come from. But I would want to help them remain in good health, prosperous and self-sufficient.
I wouldn’t tell Islamic folks how to finance their energy needs, because they see things a bit different to us folks. But I would sell them solar panels if they needed them and I could make them competitively.
And I’d tell the Germans to stop trashing our approaches to things when all they want to do is take over our domestic markets.
What would you lot do?
It is 10 billion/year for US’s part of the 100billion. That is still $33/yr for every man, woman, and child in America. To be sent to some dictator’s swiss bank account, count on it.
It will not be raised by taxes. Absolutely not. They don’t want to increase the burden on America’s working class!!
It will be raised by fees on businesses and the fat cat banks, who go home every night and swim in their pools full of money. We’ll stick it to the evil businesses! They don’t do anything other than collect all the money and give it to the poor people that are drowning!
They’re going to outlaw the sun.
“The declaration will likely call for preventing global temperatures from going up more than 2.0 degrees Celsius compared to pre-industrial times, according to a participant in the meeting.”
Rick:
You’re right, that must be something like $33 per person in the US.
Now, the average GDP per capita is approximately $47,000 per year.
It means that the US would “lose” around 0.07% of its GDP.
How the hell is this going to destroy the US economy?
And this is not considering the fact that slightly richer third world countries also means a lot of potential new clients for the US.
May we get some chinese money in exchange of those green papers?
Rhys Jaggar (06:13:26) :
Hey!
All you’re seeing here is Animal Farm, 21st century style
Bravo! what a precise observation. However we do not see the OWNERS of these animals around…
[NOTE TO READERS: This is some sort of fictional interview – Anthony]
Bird: Professor George Parr, you are a climatologist working for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, is that right?
Fortune: (smug smile) that’s right – I decide what this century’s climate’s going to look like.
Bird: (astonished) sorry – doesn’t that depend on a few uncontrollable factors – the sun, cosmic rays, volcanoes?
Fortune: not if I’ve got anything to do with it, it doesn’t!
Bird: (shocked) Are you saying that climate in the future is decided by a group of SCIENTISTS?
Fortune: nope, by a group of financially savvy investor-politicians…….
Bird: what’s climate got to do with the politics of investment?
Fortune: in the 20th century, very little. In the 21st: everything!
Bird: I see……does anyone else know that?
Fortune: we’re making sure that everyone important gets the message!
Bird: and who is important?
Fortune: anyone in international politics, the mainstream media and every Big Swinging Dick around the world’s trading floors!
Bird: (confused) I’m sorry, I’m not familiar with that expression – ‘Big Swinging Dick’, did you say?
Fortune: the toughest, meanest, richest sonofabitch traders on Wall Street…..
Bird: and how do these…errr… ‘Big Swinging Dicks’… come to play a role in shaping the climate?
Fortune: in every way possible….they talk up stocks in renewable energy, they trade carbon credits and sooner or later, they’ll make up new product classes to trade so we can start our new casino after the credit crunch crash has run its course……..
Bird: I see…that shapes the climate does it?….and what about the politicians?
Fortune: well, they have to pass laws which mean that countries will want to trade the carbon credits, they look the other way when one of their own is looking to become a billionaire out West and they agree to bail out Wall Street in 40 years when the whole thing comes crashing down again!
Bird: (shocked astonishment) you’re saying that the next crash is already BEING PLANNED?
Fortune: well, not really, we don’t know when it’ll happen. Who cares? All we care about is that our children can lose $1 trillion without being out of pocket when it eventually DOES happen……….
Bird: I see……and what about the media: what do THEY do?
Fortune: well, they have to give the whole world the climatological equivalent of Delhi Belly!
Bird: you mean they make everyone around the world start crapping themselves uncontrollably?
Fortune: that’s right!
Bird: And what’s the point of that?
Fortune: well, then we have a world run on SCARED SENTIMENT so regular scare stories can be used to drive share prices up and down, increase the volume of carbon off-setting trades and give hundreds of politicians timely subject matter for a speech on prime time television!
Bird: I see. So you’re saying that there are certain stocks that I should buy then?
Fortune: of course, but I can’t tell you what they are, that would defeat the point of the whole thing!
Bird: but this carbon dioxide scare: it IS true, isn’t it? All the scientists say they agree with it, don’t they?
Fortune: well, all the ones that are ambitious do, because that’s where the research money is. No chance of becoming Mr Professor with a piddling $25000 grant from ExxonMobil if you can get $2m from a climate change initiative, is there? Tenure committees ALWAYS look favourably on high levels of grant income, ESPECIALLY in the climatological arena……..
Bird: No, I suppose not…….but the ARCTIC ICE IS MELTING MORE AND MORE, ISN’T IT?
Fortune: Absolutely – it’s never been lower than last summer!
Bird: And this summer?
Fortune: Well, unfortunately it wasn’t quite as bad, but we’re very confident it will be much worse in future!
Bird: And these floods we see on TV every year now – appalling isn’t it?
Fortune: no, it’s wonderful! Great coverage for the President, great scare stories for the green lobby, marvellous ammunition for new grant funding campaigns!
Bird: but what about the people WHO DIE FROM THESE FLOODS?
Fortune: well, it’s really very tragic, very tragic indeed. But it does hopefully teach people how DANGEROUS GLOBAL WARMING is. Especially if they live below sea level behind derelict levees on the Gulf Coast…..
Bird: then wouldn’t it be a good idea to relocate them somewhere safer?
Fortune: good God no! Then we might be solving the problem. Terrible prospects for grant income if the problem’s already solved – the whole point about academic research is to string it out as long as possible to maximise the amount of money spent!
Bird: (deep shock) Are you saying to me that TAXPAYERS’ MONEY is deliberately misspent to minimise the novelty value of academic research?
Fortune: no, I’m saying that it’s very important to highlight all the complexities of the research problem being addressed. But you mustn’t highlight all of them at the beginning, otherwise the problem would be too hard. And you mustn’t highlight the solutions in the middle, otherwise there wouldn’t still be a problem to solve. And when it has been solved, there needs to be independent confirmation that what has been solved can be relied upon. So as you can see, it usually takes at least 15 years to solve any academic problem properly……
Bird: I see. But if the problem to be solved never existed in the first place…..
Fortune: the problem existed in the minds of the Government, so it must have existed, mustn’t it?
Bird: I see………
Fortune: look, we can’t be TOTALLY CERTAIN that we’re right. But we can be totally certain that we MIGHT BE RIGHT and that IF WE ARE RIGHT and IF OUR COMPUTER MODELS ARE CORRECT, then we’re all up shit creek without a paddle……….
Bird: I see……..so what’s the likelihood that you ARE right?
Fortune: right about what?
Bird: dangerous climate change……
Fortune: well, we’re certain that temperature can go up or down rapidly…….and that if it keeps on doing that for too long, then that’s VERY BAD.
Bird: And what if it goes up rapidly for a while, then comes down rapidly for a while?
Fortune: ah, then we have to add some more complexity into the problem. You see: between 1940 and 1975, it got colder and everyone said we were going to have an Ice Age. Now of course, it’s got warmer again so that was obviously wrong, so we have to say that ‘it would have got colder even faster if it hadn’t been for global warming’…….
Bird: and if it’s actually getting warmer?
Fortune: ah, then it’s ‘getting warmer faster than it would have done without global warming’.
Bird: so whatever happens, it’s all the fault of global warming then?
Fortune: that’s right………now you’re understanding 21st century issues………
Bird: one final question, Professor Parr: where do YOU LIVE?
Fortune: Boulder, Colorado.
Bird: And why is that?
Fortune: well, it’s 6000ft above sea level, so I’m safe from rising sea levels if global warming happens. And if it doesn’t get any warmer, then the ski-ing in Colorado is fantastic, so I’ve covered my bets. And if my share tips come good, I can buy a lodge in Aspen and get there for weekends pretty darn easily……..
Bird: Professor George Parr, thank you very much….
Fortune: Thank you………
Obama has cleverly destroyed Hillary’s future election hopes.
I’m surprised she fell for it.
hunter (05:23:55) :
You are mistaking my post for JPeden’s post. Sorry, J.Peden that my italics did not work so the quote and myself could be clear.
You, Hunter, said:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you are an idiot.
We are leaving, and have left, countries that we invaded as fast as possible, too fast to actually set up an ‘imperium’.
We set up bases too small to invade, barely large enough to defend.
We are not charging tribute, fees or taxes or even special pricing on oil.
Now we have a President embarrassed of American power, dedicated to not winning a war.
Read history of how real empires are set up and run and then get back to me.
When and if the Chinese actually go imperial, not only wil this conversation not take place, it will not need to because you will, if still alive, see the difference so plainly that even you will notice it.
This is what I said:
anna v (02:29:02) :
J. Peden (00:24:30) :
[I hope I’m misreading Dilby, too.]
“This is supposed to be a science blog, but this particular thread is highly political.
Please listen to me. In the same way that the mass media are shielding the population of the US from learning the truth of AGW , they are shielding them from learning about the great animosity in most of the world against the US policies after the fall of the iron curtain, i.e. 1989.
People who were staunch supporters of US policies during the cold war, were mightily disillusioned with its policies after the end of it.
You may not see it from in there, but the policies were and are imperial policies of total control. What other country has over 250 military bases on foreign soil, when there is no longer a communist takeover threat? except for trying to impose complete control the world over?
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, based on chasing red herrings but really trying to secure geopolitical control over energy routes, were bloody, destroyed the countries and the people. We, who are close to the middle east, have had our eyes opened to the brutality and hypocricy of preaching democracy with bombs , and coddling up to dictatorships the world over otherwise.
Do not get me wrong. I would prefer a US imperium to a chinese one any day.The US lost its chance of becoming a peaceful imperium after 1989. It had already conquered with McDonald’s and Holywood most of the world, it could have had everybody eating out of its hand, imo. Instead it decided on bloody invasions to protect its energy interests.
The bad thing of trying to wed capitalism with imperial ambitions is what you see written on the wall now for the west: outsourcings and borrowings from China make China the rising star, and the US will join the list of short lived imperia, following the fate of the UK imperium much faster.”
About reading history:
Have you read about Alexander the Great’s empire? It lasted very little though it included the whole middle east and Egypt. He worked about how the US is working its empire: bring greek culture to the uncultured. (bring democracy to the totalitarians) All the areas where he passed and established kingdoms with greek rulers are full of hellenistic stuff that the tourists see. And he is called the Great. Except his empire must have been the fastest decaying in history.
And you have not read me through, seeing red from the first lines, as I said that certainly a US imperium is preferable to a Chinese one. The chinese one has lasted 2000 years and is going strong.
The news we get of Iran and Afghanistan are horrifying, and different from the news you get in the US. That is what I am pointing out.
Actually the US would have been successful in establishing an imperium if it were not a democracy. Democracies have internal struggles that in the end bring down imperial ambitions, beginning from Athens, the first democracy. And the US has the legacy of puritanism on top.
I do not want to continue this on this blog, which should be about science. It is just that you missatributed the quote to J.Peden.
Hey…..as of 1200 hrs Atlantic Time, the NY Times’ latest story (20 minutes ago) includes no mention of a “deal” or an “accord”.
Obama’s speech includes the mention of Hillary drumming up the $100 billion (from various sources, not just the US).
The Sydney Herald may have been a bit premature?
I hope our leaders here in BC take a hard look at this carbon tax. It is a tax grab and the failure in Copenhagen along with climategate should mean a totally new examination and overhaul.
Politicians trying to look cool and impress the NGO elite….. beware!
I suspect that those who attempt to gain political advantage by pleading this country guilty of the evils of the world in the court of global public opinion will not be spared when that court exacts its justice.
What a pity. Now the [snip] science of AGW will be enshrined in an international document. Ah but wait for the ratification process. Me thinks a tad bit of trouble be on the horizon.
The real lossers are the non-scientific world as they will equate ALL science with this BS done by a few. Back to the middle ages we go…
Why is it that this time all the bad ideas are coming out of the UK??!?!
We need another Napoleon. A new code that would make public services streamlined, tax systems simple and close to fair, lock down the whole thing with immunity from idiotic name changes, paper shuffles and misc. scullduggery.
All comers debate translated into every language back to back 18hrs a day. He’d sort this mess out inside two weeks. Maybe even mild military action against these “protesters” and in 20 days tops these green/red/watermelon/AGW/Marxist morons would be back in their holes and looking for another pseudo-theory to destroy modernity with.
Instead of complaining about what the US does or does not do, everyone who has a legitimate vote should use it to get rid of the socialists, get off the dole, and take on all the responsibility possible. Unleash capitalism in a controlled manner and become strong nations once again. Then we can band together and perhaps avoid the need to learn Chinese.
will (04:05:51) “I submit that the empirical evidence is overwhelming.”
I concur 100%; the empirical evidence (my bank account) suggests I have not sold out to the gravy train. Those looking to influence my view on capitalism might try putting their money where their mouth is.
Jim (05:44:14) “[…] socialism or communism.”
It is telling that my comments have been misinterpreted in this manner. I have not advocated these systems (which can also be criticized easily).
Basil (05:03:56) “[…] too cryptic to reveal what you really think […]”
Are you suggesting I should be in politics Basil? Indeed, the climate “issue” is more complex than a binary soundbite; I commend your ability to read between the lines.
Re: Jim (12:34:30)
I got some real good snake oil Jim…
Monroe (09:34:42) “I hope our leaders here in BC take a hard look at this carbon tax.”
Don’t you think it is more than a little telling that it was set up by right-wingers and now opposed by left-wingers? Lol. They already did think it through carefully – they realized it would minimize the 2010 Olympics deficit. I think wealthy people also hoped it would reduce traffic congestion in Vancouver so their commutes would become smoother, but that doesn’t seem to be working out as planned. I’m guessing you vote NDP?
BREAKING NEWS: Sydney Morning Herald reports 11th hour Copenhagen deal forged
I was very disappointed when I read this story.
Going by the headline I was expecting a story of shocking deceit about a document which had been invented by unscrupulous people. Maybe those nice people at CRU? They’re very good at forging data.
I think Mikey nailed it…
“You have to feel sympathy for the poor fools. They’ve got to conclude some sort of face-saving “deal,” regardless of how meaningless it is, or how unratifiable it is when they tele-transport back to the real world. They have to salvage something from this shambles to try and keep the momentum rolling to the next jolly shindig in Mexico.”
I agree with pretty much all of what he’s said. Except for that first part.
I have no sympathy for anyone who thinks I’m stupid enough to take their word on something of this magnitude. I don’t know which angers me more; that they are lying to me or that they think I’m stupid enough to believe them.
I think the “respect” shown to Hugo Chavez tells us more about true goals of this farce than any climate fraud evidence we’ve seen to date.
I egree with Paul. Wealthy people are a whole problem and should not be allowed to have too much wealth. They must give some to the hard peoples of China and third worlds who must not work so much to make money. Climate change is nature revenge upon greed and fatness of west!
anna v (08:04:16) :
hunter (05:23:55) :
You are mistaking my post for JPeden’s post. Sorry, J.Peden that my italics did not work so the quote and myself could be clear.
That’s good, no problem. I was just about to tell hunter I had no idea what he was talking about, that’s all.
But, anna v, to refer to the U.S.’s 250 bases, if that’s indeed the correct number, around the World as proving “imperialism”, is a non-starter. Because you have to prove or at least look at why the basis exist. The number means nothing apart from that consideration.
So I’m not going to do it myself apart from what I already know. We’ve still got about 100,000 troops in Europe as a component of NATO. After the 2nd World War we kept 200,000 there for decades. We protect Europe, or don’t you think you need us?
We’ve also got 20-30,000 in S. Korea to help prevent a N.Korea invasion, about 40,000 in Japan if the figure I last heard was correct. The latter are there to obviate the need for Japan to think it needed to rearm after WWII. We’ve still got some in Haiti who were sent to try to stabilize Haiti during the Clinton Adm. when there was a dispute over a problem involving an elected leader there – Juan Aristad?
We’ve got some at Gitmo, Cuba, which was in fact also an ideal place to keep the illegal enemy combatants who won’t be any better off in Thompson, Illinois, also a town which I think now has some increased risk of a terrorist attack that Gitmo didn’t. Gitmo also serves as a sphere of influence/national defense base in relation to Central and South America, where Communist and Dictatorial threats to the region abound. Or should Hugo Chavez and those other despots have their way, and unite?
We pulled out of Saudi Arabia, where a base had been established to enforce the “no fly” zones in Iraq after Saddam Hussein had invaded Kuwait and subsequently entered into surrender agreements. The U.N., but mainly the U.S., threw Iraq out of Kuwait. Remember?
We’ve got Naval bases I don’t know where and how many, but the American Navy is the main one which protects the shipping lanes of the World and responded to the Tsunami first along with the Australians, the U.N. getting there at least a week later and taking even more time to even do anything at all. I’d guess there might be at least 75,000 troops on those ships. Maybe we should cease that “imperialism”?
Now we have a base in Iraq, but do you really want to say nothing good was accomplished there, so that we should pull out and let it slide back into a Saddam Husein-like Dictatorship or an Islamic Theocracy? Do you care about the oppression of people, obviously including Women? Do you worry about Iran in particular wanting to destroy Israel, or Al Qaeda terrorism? Might you entertain that the U.S. invasion of Iraq was a strategic military move to get AQ to fight where we wanted to fight, not where they wanted to? We won, and now AQ and the Taliban are squeezed between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Shouldn’t we try to even more seriously disable them?
I wouldn’t be surprised if the bases are all sensible, and have nothing to do with “imperialism”, which imo is simply name-calling and a tactic of diverting blame for various problems onto the U.S.. The left needs this kind of diversion and a lot of people need “hate objects” so as to divert away from actually thinking about other problems, especially their own.
Otherwise it is you who needs to make the argument that U.S. bases are indicative of “imperialism”. Numbers of bases don’t mean anything in themself.
[REPLY – When the poor have cried, America hath wept: Imperialism should be made of sterner stuff!]
Paul Vaughan (00:43:45) :
J. Peden (00:17:55) “Paul Vaughan, then I apologize for my extrapolation.”
Find me a permanent seat on the gravy train and all may be forgiven.
I’ll be sure to let you know, but unfortuneately I’m sol myself, except perhaps for some “gravy train” dog food I might-could scare up.
J. Peden (21:25:57) :
But, anna v, to refer to the U.S.’s 250 bases, if that’s indeed the correct number, around the World as proving “imperialism”, is a non-starter.
I did not say that the US is irrational led by crazy people. Of course there is a US reason for each base.
Do a master clear.
Substitute China and Chinese wherever you say US and americans, and tell me what you would think is happening?
If you read carefully what I said, I was not against a peaceful US imperium. I am against bloody wars. The bases should have been kept as deterrents and reminders of who is boss, but the spirits after the fall of the soviets were ripe for a peaceful takeover of the US plastic culture over the whole world. It was Kosovo/yugoslavia for us in the Balkans, Iraq and Afghanistan for the wider area that opened our eyes.
A good friend of mine and a staunch US supporter ( many of us educated in the US with all that rhetoric of liberty and democracy etc) told me bemused: if I had been told in my youth that in old age I would be chanting “americans, killers of nations” ( a favorite slogan of communists during the cold war) I would have thought I was mad.
Moderator,
[REPLY – When the poor have cried, America hath wept: Imperialism should be made of sterner stuff!]
True, but which America? The one that is starry eyed at home believing in democracy liberty and all those great values, or the one ordering army invasions and bombings? There is a cognitive dissonance there.
Democracy should, like a flower, bloom spontaneously from a culture. It takes time to nurture democratic feelings, and bombs are much faster, but one cannot preach democracy, or emancipation of the females, using bombs and expect to be loved and respected and not seen as the invader that you are.
anna v (08:04:16) “Democracies have internal struggles that in the end bring down […]”
If I understand you correctly, I agree that this started evolving into an increasingly serious problem after the fall of the iron curtain (but I am starting to see signs that the ‘higher-ups’ are now well-aware of this and finding ‘creative’ solutions….)
J. Peden (22:01:56) “perhaps […] some “gravy train” dog food”
A welcome laugh. Ice after Copenhagen, windows wide open, cold air blowing in – very nice.
Perhaps the Chinese leaders have no intention of starting down a path that might eventually commit them to surrendering their national sovereignty to some universal world government such as that envisioned by Lord Monckton.
******************
anna v (01:26:34) :
Moderator,
[REPLY – When the poor have cried, America hath wept: Imperialism should be made of sterner stuff!]
True, but which America? The one that is starry eyed at home believing in democracy liberty and all those great values, or the one ordering army invasions and bombings? There is a cognitive dissonance there.
Democracy should, like a flower, bloom spontaneously from a culture. It takes time to nurture democratic feelings, and bombs are much faster, but one cannot preach democracy, or emancipation of the females, using bombs and expect to be loved and respected and not seen as the invader that you are.
******************
Anna V – It appears to me that you are trying to stuff a messy world into a few neat, conceptual boxes. In the real world democracies have to make deals and team up with dictators. In the end, the US does not dictate the government for every country and in the real world one has to work with what one has. You are fond of looking back on history, so let’s look back on it. Nations that have or had the means have always attempted to influence world events even to the point of capturing and enslaving other nations and those that don’t have the means have always complained. War is a common thread. War is a common thread because entrenched dictators and tyrants do not respond to talk. In an ideal world, everyone would be nice to each other, say please and thank you, and “just get along.” That isn’t world we live it – that world exists only in the minds of idealists.
Re: Jim (08:06:42)
I think you are misreading anna v. In your “real world”, I imagine actions having consequences, such as backlash (ever-adjusting balance). Surely tough guys (who get power as a benefit) can take a little criticism ….if they are also level-headed good guys (as opposed to iron-fisted, censoring dictators) – i.e. taking criticism gracefully (& hopefully applying operational optimism to learn from it) is part of the job for good guys (‘positive customer experience’, etc.).. I guess it all comes down to whether those in power are easily alarmed by criticism (not exactly a desirable leadership quality…)
Paul Vaughan (10:31:14)
Hey Paul. Actions have consequences, as does inaction.
Re: Jim (19:26:50)
Perhaps we are in agreement.
anna v:
I did not say that the US is irrational led by crazy people. Of course there is a US reason for each base.
Right, anna v, you said what I said you said, anna v:
People who were staunch supporters of US policies during the cold war, were mightily disillusioned with its policies after the end of it.
You may not see it from in there, but the policies were and are imperial policies of total control. What other country has over 250 military bases on foreign soil, when there is no longer a communist takeover threat? except for trying to impose complete control the world over?
That’s what you said, that America is an imperialistic country because it has 250 military bases around the World. While you have still not proven that any of the bases represent U.S. “imperialism”. Resist right here, anna, the urge to think that somehow that is my problem or that I’m just being jingoistic or whatever other excuse you might use that does not involve you. No, as a matter of being reasonable, you have to prove what you said.
But especially, you should wonder why you resist doing it. I’m saying you are probably using the “imperialism” charge against the U.S. to avoid something else you’d rather not think about, as I’ve mentioned before.
Likewise, your argument claiming that I would think like you if the bases were Chinese is irrelevant, except that it is obvious projection! I would first analyze why the Chinese had their bases just like I said you should, and that’s exactly why I said you should. Because that’s the reasonable thing to do.
But cutting to the chase once again, why don’t you focus on your own Country, or better, your own mind first? I’m suggesting that you are ignoring what’s really bothering you, and it ain’t the U.S.A..
I’m serious. You need to at least wonder why you don’t want to back up your claim rationally when you are trying to affix some kind of rather serious pathology to “America”.
If you want to short cut it, forget about analyzing the U.S. bases and America. Start looking at the very way you are thinking to begin with, especially about yourself and life.
Re: J.Peden (01:18:58)
Your attack on anna v is unhelpful. Sometimes my students come to me upset; it doesn’t help if I get upset back at them. If your intent is to defend good leadership, the strong silent approach might be more convincing (particularly in a forum that rails against alarmism). Season’s Best to All.
Paul Vaughan (11:23:50) :
Re: J.Peden (01:18:58)
Your attack on anna v is unhelpful. Sometimes my students come to me upset; it doesn’t help if I get upset back at them.
I wasn’t upset. anna v should take my advice so that she doesn’t have to be so upset.
This in no way releasess me from my obligation to get you a seat on the gravy train.