INDIA ATTACKS WESTERN CLIMATE ALARMISM
Financial Times, 24 July 2009
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c2896b88-77bd-11de-9713-00144feabdc0.html
By James Lamont in New Delhi, Joshua Chaffin in Are and Fiona Harvey in London
Himalayas a key area of contention.
Excerpts:
A split between rich and poor nations in the run-up to climate-change talks widened on Thursday.
India rejected key scientific findings on global warming, while the European Union called for more action by developing states on greenhouse gas emissions.
Jairam Ramesh, the Indian environment minister, accused the developed world of needlessly raising alarm over melting Himalayan glaciers.
He dismissed scientists’ predictions that Himalayan glaciers might disappear within 40 years as a result of global warming.
“We have to get out of the preconceived notion, which is based on western media, and invest our scientific research and other capacities to study Himalayan atmosphere,” he said.
“Science has its limitation. You cannot substitute the knowledge that has been gained by the people living in cold deserts through everyday experience.”
Mr Ramesh was also clear that India would not take on targets to cut its emissions, even though developed countries are asking only for curbs in the growth of emissions, rather than absolute cuts.
…
India has taken the hardest line in the negotiations so far. Along with China, India refused at the meeting of the Group of Eight industrialised nations this month to sign up to a target of cutting global emissions by half by 2050. The countries were holding out to gain concessions from the west on financing.
The claims from Mr Ramesh that Western science was wrong on the question of melting Himalayan glaciers appeared to reinforce Delhi’s recalcitrant stance.
Mr Ramesh this week challenged Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, over her appeal to India to embrace a low-carbon future and not repeat the mistakes of the developed world in seeking fast industrialisation.
…
Mr Ramesh said the rate of retreat of glaciers in the Himalayas varied from a “couple of centimetres a year to a couple of metres”, but that this was a natural process that had taken place occurred over the centuries. Some were, in fact, growing, he said.
The glaciers – estimated by India’s space agency to number about 15,000 – had also been affected by debris and the large number of tourists, he said.
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HAHAHAH! Those Indians ARE smart! Best news I’ve heard all year.
“The glaciers – estimated by India’s space agency to number about 15,000 – had also been affected by debris and the large number of tourists, he said.”
There it is. Gotta git rid of all those people who are screwing up the planet. (/sarcoff) .
Well, here we go again.
Himalayan Glaciers disappearing in forty years!
Himalayan Glaciers are expanding.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/3563714/Stubborn-glaciers-fail-to-retreat-awkward-polar-bears-continue-to-multiply.html
The tourism argument is BS and shows how weak the arguments are.
India is right and their rejection could be our rescue.
Every manufacturing company would move it’s operation to India as a consequence.
The AGW’s are going to try and gloss over the most important consequence of this stance by India (and similar actions by China): If India and China do NOT sign onto the Carbon Control Agenda, then any hope of reducing worldwide emissions is doomed to failure. Cuts in Europe and the USA will simply be matched by corresponding increases in China and India.
The numbers just won’t work. Without China and India, the US and Europe cannot bring down worldwide CO2 levels even if they shut down every factory they control. It simply can’t be done.
The entire anti-carbon agenda has just become a demonstrably useless and self destructive obsession.
Mr Ramesh this week challenged Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, over her appeal to India to embrace a low-carbon future and not repeat the mistakes of the developed world in seeking fast industrialisation.
The truth of her attitude comes out. India’s population should remain poor so we don’t raise CO2 levels. We have to save the world and YOU have to sacrifice your future to do that.
The glaciers – estimated by India’s space agency to number about 15,000 – had also been affected by debris and the large number of tourists, he said.
News Flash! Himalayan Tourists Cause Global Warming!
China says no too :
“China and other developing nations are opposed to any compulsory cuts in their emissions,..”
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.10c9852094418f0a38dc9285a45be96c.1b21&show_article=1&catnum=0
Obama has threatened to tax imports from countries who refuse to participate a Global Treaty and punish companies that move out to evade CO2 taxes.
The word “trade war” already emerged in different economic publications.
Several economic and legislative experts already stated that adoting existing Trade Agreements is illegal according to international law.
Many economists have warned for any measures that promote isolationism and undermine free trade because it would deepen the current crises.
Microsoft for example has threatened the US Administration that it will move it’s entire operation from the USA, taking it’s employees with it, if further taxes are imposed.
If Obama continues his current course, it will damage US economic interests beyond repair.
This same story is on the front page at Drudge, in the right column, in red letters :
“India ‘rejects key scientific findings on global warming’ — vows not to cut emissions…”
http://www.drudgereport.com/
wws (07:28:06) : “The entire anti-carbon agenda has just become a demonstrably useless and self destructive obsession.”
Well Said!
Mr Ramesh this week challenged Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, over her appeal to India to embrace a low-carbon future and not repeat the mistakes of the developed world in seeking fast industrialisation.
Fast industrialization would decimate the servant class don’t you know.
It is truly astounding how totally evil Herr Clinton is. And her followers. And the followers of the Won.
“Mr Ramesh this week challenged Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, over her appeal to India to embrace a low-carbon future and not repeat the mistakes of the developed world in seeking fast industrialisation.”
that quote just pains me! basically, “i know you are terribly poor, but be sure to only let that improve very slowly.”
the Swedish environment minister said poor countries must also do more to forge an agreement. “We are prepared to put money on the table. But it should also be said that if we don’t see significant reductions that will really deviate from business as usual . . . then there is no money,” Mr Carlgren said, singling out China, India, Brazil, South Africa and Indonesia. “We are also prepared to deliver financing, but we must see that there is something to pay for.”
This would be plain blackmailing, however it is but a joke, because with what money are they going to finance us, or they are thinking to lend us their accounts in red or send us fake paper money?
Hey Andrew, I see that you edited the “REQUIRED” warmist “facts” out of the story
“The consequences of depleted glaciers – sensitive to rising temperature and humidity – would be dire.
Seven of the world’s greatest rivers , including the Ganges and the Yangtze, are fed by the glaciers of the Himalayas and Tibet. They supply water to about 40 per cent of the world’s population.
Water supply is likely to become an increasing national security priority for both India and China as they seek to maintain high economic growth rates and sustain large populations dependent on farming. Some scientists have warned that rivers such as the Ganges, Indus and Brahmaputra could become seasonal rivers as a result of global warming.
Indians are also fearful of weakening monsoon rains. Some parts of India, including Delhi, the capital, are still waiting anxiously for this year’s rains to come in earnest. A late, or a poor, monsoon would be a drag on economic growth.
Achim Steiner, executive director of the UN Environment Programme, has described melting glaciers as a “canary in the climate-change coal mine”, warning that billions of people depend on these natural water storage facilities for drinking water, power generation and agriculture.”
[snip -policy, name incorrect also]
It looks like the recently categorized “Third World” is now coming to our rescue. Or is it? Here is how it will work. The wonderful promotional pull by India that says “were open for business and we won’t do anything crazy” will be a huge attraction to the rest of Western industry who are under the push of crippling uncertainty and burgeoning enviromental taxes. They will move to India to escape the profit destroying nuttiness of the West and presto, carbon emissions will disappear from North America and Europe with no need for all that electricity with it will go jobs and investment. Meanwhile, the new arrivals in India will be able to pollute more than they can now resulting in an upsurge of CO2 to an even steeper trend than now along with a bunch of other ugly oxides, sulphates, etc. of the rest of the members of the Periodic Table of the Elements. Whenever socialist management replaces capitalism, it has horrible unintended consequences. Some like the Soviet Union experiment lasted for almost a century with over 50 million people dying or killed.
Time to outsource climate science research to India?
From what I am reading it seems to me the Indians are being more honest in their refusal to play the CO2 game. The Chinese, Russians, and Brazilians give lip service to the IPCC, but the Indians give contrary evidence as their rationale.
While I can sympathize with the Russians, et al. (they end up getting all the migrated industries), my respect goes to the Indians.
“Achim Steiner, executive director of the UN Environment Programme, has described melting glaciers as a “canary in the climate-change coal mine”
You better pray that “climate change” will cause continued melting of glaciers because if/when they start expanding again – and we are right on track for the end of this current interglacial period right about now, the consequences will be far more devastating than receding ice sheets.
“Just say no” should apply to many things in life.
Glaciers disappearing in the Himalayas in 40 years is a nonsense. A shameless distortion of reality.
Not even if temperatures were to rise 15°C (fifteen C!) even so, the highest glaciers still would remain.
The fact is that there has been hardly any change in the last century in some glaciers. Take the Baltoro Glacier in the Karakorum. The end front is now 140 m ahead of where it was in 1954. It has advanced. With respect to 1909 it has retreated only 60m. Processes at play there are quite different from those at play in the Alps or Alaska. So much for global in global change.
reference
Better check for yourselves looking at these two images of Baltoro Glacier taken one century apart:
http://tr.im/tRNW
Anne (08:02:49) :
Some scientists have warned that rivers such as the Ganges, Indus and Brahmaputra could become seasonal rivers as a result of global warming
Please remember your third grade lessons: If heat goes up then sea water evaporates and it rains, so monsoon rains would increase. Do you remember?
But, unfortunately, the world is cooling since 1998, we are at the beginning of a new Dalton or worse a Maunder like minimum.
wws (07:28:06) :
The entire anti-carbon agenda has just become a demonstrably useless and self destructive obsession.
And has jeopardized the legitimate pursuit of alternative energy resources in the interest of national security. Besides, I like carbon-based lifeforms. I’m one.
There has been vast deforestation in the Himalayan foothills, causing massive soil erosion and flooding on the plains of the Ganges and further down stream in the Ganges delta in Bangladesh, a major problem for the Bangladeshi authorities. This flooding is often attributed to sea-level rise.
Deforestation also had another knock on effect, that of reducing the evapo-transpiration in the mountains, causing precipitation to be less and more infrequent, the monsoonal rainfall has also been episodic.
If precipitation is lacking in the formative areas ie above the equilibrium line then of course the glacier, if not being replenished will begin to ablate and diminish.
The result is that some glaciers have been in retreat, retreat of glaciers is not always reliant upon warming. Evidence in the Andes, in Chile/Argentina and New Zealand, shows that glaciers can be in retreat in some valleys and on the march in others in the next valley.
The IPCC are very fond of depicting glacier retreat as fundamental proof of AGW, the photos of retreating ice are spectacular and it’s hard to deny the melt, however the full picture is still not clear, a few cold winters and the snows in Patagonia or the Southern Alps will replenish snow fields, in the Himalayas the future is not so clear.
The Indians have every right to blow a raspberry at countries who want them to halt the economic progress of their state, it would be just another thing they could throw at the ‘Imperialist West’ and the “we know better attitude”.
Anne (08:02:49) :
40% of the world population is more than the combined population of all India and China. Are you suggesting that Southern India and Northern China also depend on glacier meltwater?
Many big rivers start at little springs. You need to compare the discharge down the river with the meltwater discharge. Most of the big Asian rivers contribution is monsoon rains and ground water, not ice melt.
Follow the money,
India leads demands for £120bn climate change fund paid for by the West.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/5888583/India-leads-demands-for-120bn-climate-change-fund-paid-for-by-the-West.html
Global warming causes Indian glaciers to grow.
The rise in the number of glaciers belied the impact of the global warming phenomena in this region
http://www.indopia.in/India-usa-uk-news/latest-news/63406/National/1/20/1