From the Thomas Jefferson Institute for Public Policy
By Steve Haner
Another analysis of the energy dilemma facing Virginia, this one commissioned by a Democrat-controlled legislative panel, has concluded that use of natural gas to make electricity is going to have to grow over coming decades, not shrink. Virginia’s anti-hydrocarbon energy laws are doomed to fail because of Virginia’s global dominance in the data center industry.
The new 150-page report takes its own look at Virginia’s future energy demand and the best mix of generation to meet it. It reaches the conclusions Dominion Energy Virginia also reached in its most recent integrated resource plan. Data centers by themselves are driving an enormous future demand curve, as Dominion claimed. The abandonment of coal and natural gas demanded by the Virginia Clean Economy Act (VCEA) creates an energy deficit, even if the data center growth proves slower than the current projections.
The energy consulting firm Energy + Environmental Economics (E3) was retained by the Joint Legislative Audit and Review Commission (JLARC) to look at the future electricity demand created by Virginia’s prominent role in the data center industry. Using proprietary models looking out to 2050, it produced several possible scenarios but all included expansion of natural gas and all caused significant rate increases, also a parallel conclusion from the Dominion IRP.
In fact, this report projects natural gas must expand, and will remain necessary beyond the mandated retirement dates in the VCEA even if the data center growth doesn’t happen. It plugs the gap in some scenarios by using hydrogen in place of natural gas in thermal energy plants. But that remains an unproven, experimental technology not used at scale anywhere. An entire very expensive infrastructure would be needed to create and transport the hydrogen to Virginia power plants.
Only fantasy technology can comply with the fantasy VCEA. The nuclear plants E3’s scenarios envision are somewhat closer to reality, but still years if not decades away. “In the absence of policy, there is still a significant role for coal and gas generation, comprising another ~30% of demand,” the consultant reports. This was on a slide marked “No Data Center Growth, No VCEA.” Carbon emitting source are even more prominent on scenarios that include the demand growth, with some adding a new natural gas plant every two years.
Virginia’s average citizen ratepayers, those not advised by utility accountants and lawyers, have every reason to be wary. Just about everybody in the room will have an employer or client they seek to protect or enrich, or a political boss dependent on campaign contributions from the companies present. Utilities and green energy advocates are major funders of what remains of Virginia’s news media.
Financial rent seeking and political muscle helped put Virginia into this dilemma, a perfect example of the wise warning to be careful what you ask for. Major financial incentives were created as far back as 2010 to lure the data centers to Virginia, as outlined in the JLARC report.
The state gives a major tax break on the sales taxes it would otherwise collect as the data centers are constructed and filled with computers. The value of that tax subsidy was just under $1 billion in 2023, JLARC reports. In many cases, the state tax lure is coupled with local incentives. Virginia is also attractive because so much Internet fiber backbone runs through the state, and because federal government clients fill the landscape.
It worked. “Northern Virginia is the largest data center market in the world, constituting 13 percent of all reported data center operational capacity globally and 25 percent of capacity in the Americas,” JLARC reports. There are also significant facilities in the Richmond area, a cluster in Southside Virginia (mostly Microsoft) and even a new giant facility proposed for Appomattox.
Virginia’s Democrats didn’t want the lecture on energy reality they got from Dominion and have dismissed warnings against thermal energy retirements coming from the PJM Interconnection. Will a report from a consultant they commissioned get the message through?
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
Wind and solar are .subsidy mining operations, not a real grid level power source.
Utilities disagree. 90% of new power generation plants awaiting connection to the grid in Virginia are solar and wind.
Can you read? Subsidy mining? The financial incentives are rigged to favor solar and wind.
Might the utilities be smarter than you and know more about the best technology choices? I think so. Both central solar and onshore wind are now less expensive (without subsidy) than either coal or natural gas generation.
“Less expensive”? In what world?
Green energy is a rent seeking enterprise fronted by Al Gore, seeking to enrich his cronies.
Less expensive in today’s world; the cost of central solar and onshore wind have declined 90% and 70% respectively over that’s decade. They are now less expensive (without subsidy) to build and operate vs coal or natural gas in most cases.
Wind and solar are not suitable for electric grids, as Germany’s Energiewende demonstrated. Unless one discovers science fiction level energy storage (as in currently existing nowhere), their intermittency makes them a sick fantasy.
Since over 80% of new generating capacity installed worldwide has been solar and wind in recent years (not nuclear), it seems that Utilities in all nations see your claims as nonsense.
China, India, Vietnam, Japan apparently do not exist in your Weltanshaaung? How is the Energiewende actually working, Warren? Do you f’ing care?
All countries of the world. Summed up. Including the ones you mention. Sorry, old boy. I’m not feeling very sorry for your befuddlement.
Who are you sourcing that fantasy from? The Grauniad? Grit? CounterPunch?
https://www.iea.org/news/massive-expansion-of-renewable-power-opens-door-to-achieving-global-tripling-goal-set-at-cop28
” The amount of renewable energy capacity added to energy systems around the world grew by 50% in 2023, reaching almost 510 gigawatts (GW), with solar PV accounting for three-quarters of additions worldwide, according to Renewables 2023, the latest edition of the IEA’s annual market report on the sector. The largest growth took place in China, which commissioned as much solar PV in 2023 as the entire world did in 2022, while China’s wind power additions rose by 66% year-on-year. The increases in renewable energy capacity in Europe, the United States and Brazil also hit all-time highs.”
And: “Renewable power capacity additions will continue to increase in the next five years, with solar PV and wind accounting for a record 96% of it because their generation costs are lower than for both fossil and non-fossil alternatives in most countries “
Oh? You believe PRC numbers?
Rather weak response.
You still haven’t responded to what the Energiewende has done in Germany. And the PRCs numbers are fantasyland.
I gave you the most reliable source. Germany is a diversion from the point I made — that solar and wind represent the overwhelming share of new generation being added worldwide, and are also projected to increase in the next few years.
So it does not matter if wind and solar can sustain a grid, or even how much actual dispatchable energy it produces? Green prayer wheels is an appropriate term.
Why don’t you talk to the utilities? They seem to have figured out how to integrate solar and wind into their grid. While you work from your armchair reading nonsense on wuwt.
More Handwavium? What about Germany, Warren? Want that here?
You really are worried about your little conspiracy theories.
Well, I do argue religion with Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Arguing with someone who has forsworn reason is like giving medicine to the dead.
Where, Warren, does your precious wind and solar sustain a grid? Erewhon?
Everywhere the world. Did you not read the IEA reports? Or do You prefer mysticism and fantasy? Answer: YES!
I suppose you believe in homeopathy? It is legal to sell most places.
Yep, they show that coal continues to provide some 80-82% of all world electricity. !
What about Germany
Wind is basically useless for a a large part of the time.
60% of the time it is below 20% of installed capacity
Germans have a word for that situation, Dunkelflaute.
No they haven’t, grids are now often teetering on the edge of collapse.
I actual live next door to a guy who works on the electricity grid, the comments he makes about wind and solar are NOT very nice. !
Wind and solar are PARASITES.. just like you.
wind and solar are never a reliable source. !
you are deluded.
meaningless response from the beetroot..
Intermittent, sporadic, inverter generation cannot provide full time dispatchable (responding to customer instant demand) capacity.
Capacity only counts when available!
A coal, nuclear, or natural gas rotating turbine-generator also provides freqency and voltage stability to the instant current demanded by customers.
A transmission grid and distribution network cannot be provided with solar and wind alone.
And no available/future battery can provide weeks of energy when the sun doesn’t shine or wind doesn’t blow.
There is more to the physics and economics….but one could look it up!
Why don’t you give the world’s utilities a call and tell them what they’re doing wrong? They’ve been adding capacity mostly in the form of solar and wind now for several years, and seem to be doing just fine.😂
The people working in the grid utilities know exactly what is being done wrong…
.. adding too much erratic unreliable supplies and removing supplies that can provide solid reliable electricity
I live in Texas, and subsidy miners buggered the grid with too much wind. As we discovered in February 2021.
According to ERCOT and reporting by the Texas Tribune, the grid failure in Feb 2021 was caused by a failure to winterize equipment and a lack of redundancy brought on by deregulation. About 75% of the failures were in the Nat gas system , where equipment froze and pipelines and mines stopped functioning.
Pure gaslighting. Aside from such green sabotage as electric compressors on gas pipelines, the utilities believed your type of BS and did not expect the coldest weather since 1913.
Wind does not do well in freezing rain and still air. Wind diverted investment.
Looks like you are the gaslighter:
From the Texas Tribune: “…natural gas producers were unable to deliver enough fuel to power plants. At the same time, some wells were unable to produce as much natural gas due to the freezing conditions.” And “The inability of power plants to perform in the extreme cold was the No. 1 cause of the outages last year.” And “ At one point during February’s storm, more than half of the state’s natural gas supply was shut down due to power outages, frozen equipment and weather conditions.” https://www.texastribune.org/2022/02/15/texas-power-grid-winter-storm-2021/
Other than that the Texas Tribune was one of the gaslighters for the renewables lobby, you did see the mention of electric compressors on gas lines? Green zealotry, and counted by the greens as a failure in the gas supply.
Wind and solar do not belong as a part of a grid.
Wind power is the largest source of renewable energy in the United States, generating nearly half of the total. In 2023, wind energy projects in 41 states generated about 10% of the total U.S. utility-scale electricity generation.
Dear Deniers,
It looks like Texas, Iowa, and many other US states are ignoring you. It gives me great pleasure to see whining Deniers stomp their feet while Utilities continue to make the right decisions for the climate and Americans. Thank you, Texas, Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Illinois, and the other 36 states!!
I live in Kansas and my electric bill has doubled as wind power has been added.
Can you tell me why adding all this power is costing more? It can’t be the cost of coal or natural gas as those have not increased.
Be specific. No companies are ripping us off as a cop out answer.
Public utility commissions spread the cost of new assets ( generation facilities) across all rate payers served by the utility. So if a data center is built in your utility service area, and the data center requires a new power plant to be built, your rates will increase.
New wind power facilities are typically equal to , or less expensive to build and operate than fossil fuel plants, so if the utility had decided to build a natural gas plant instead, your rates would still have increased, perhaps by more than the increase you are now seeing.
Typical flippant answer.
Why are countries starting mothballed nuclear and FF power plants dude? Who is paying for those plants operating inefficiently? Is the cost coming out of the profits of the RE investors?
Your response indicates you are ignorant of how utilities allocate costs. But even worse, you are certain my explanation is wrong even though you indicated you didn’t know it works in the first place. That’s called ‘Dunning Kruger syndrome’. And you’ve got it.
I spent 30 years in a telephone company dealing with allocating expenses and capital to meet both federal and state accounting rules. An example, eveery pole, both telephone and electric have a steel strip with an index stamped into it. That is how the cost and depreciation of that pole is tracked.
Allocated costs for a REGULATED utility doesn’t even apply to most wind and solar farms. I wish they did. Then as consumers we would have a much better idea of where subsides are going and what for.
Why didn’t you address the point why regulated utilities are having to restart mothballed power plants, which rate payers are on the hook for?
For those where the restarted plants are placed into an electricity marketplace, they get outrageous prices for backing up RE from wind and solar. More power to them, but woe is the end user.
You claim to be an expert in utility cost allocations, yet you’re asking someone else to tell why you have to pay higher rates when your utility has to restart a mothballed plant? Does that mean you’re not an expert after all?
No, it means you are just another lame troll for the klimate kult.
Why don’t you address the additional costs paid for by the end users rather than starting off with an ad hominem that is just stupid?
I thought you were a utility cost expert? Or were you just whining that you’ve been treated so unfairly?
Hey dipsh*t. Quote where I said I was an expert.
You are an expert at red herrings and ad hominems. Neither of those are admirable traits you know
FYI, I said I had to allocate to correct accounts. It would seem you have no experience in how those accounts were administered by folks spending money for repairs, test equipment , etc.
The beeton clown show rolls on…
10%?!? Wow, this much?
Well-stated.
roflmao.
Capacity of renewables ins MEANINGLESS because they are totally incapable of every achieving anywhere near that capacity.. often below 15% !
And when it comes to total energy usage, wind and solar are barely visible on the chart.
GAS coal and oil with some nuclear and hydro still make up but far the bulk of electricity supply.
so only 16% of actual generation, even less for solar.
Actual generation from of coal and gas continues apace.
Its not the utilities, it is the brain-washed virtue-seeking governments.
And still cause electricity prices to skyrocket wherever more than a single digit % of wind and solar are installed on the grid.
Utilities are in a massively regulated business.
A franchise is granted in lieu of competition. And all costs are allowed or not-by regulators, all prices (rates) are defined and approved by regulators, and investor owned utilities–all profits limited and approved by regulators.
To survive and keep the franchise, utilities must kneel before even the craziest, most political, self-interested regulators.
Customers and shareholders be damned.
There are two big assumptions here:
The data centers need to be in VirginiaThe power needs to be generated in VirginiaWe have wires etc.
Whatever happens, data centres CANNOT be driven by erratic inconsistent garbage electricity supplies such as wind and solar.
Virginia wants the data centers. The state is subsiding them.
If they think they have to have them in Virginia, it’s no use comlaining that they need a lot of power.
It’s a different kind of green that the Virginians want.
They just have to turn to coal, gas or nuclear.
Time to woke up to reality.
They don’t have to be built in Virginia.We will take them in West Virginia. And we will build gas powered plants to supply electricity to them.
Not the same level of internet backbone. Probably lower power supply infrastructure as well, meaning grid as the generation comes from wider region not just in WV or even virginia
I love West Virginia, so please do not construe this as a negative.
But, Virginia is the right choice, given relative levels of economics, population, trained and educated work force. This is not saying West Virginia is lacking in any way, it’s just Virginia has more of all of those.
Plus the proximity to D.C. and the existing internet super trunk infrastructure.
Personally, I am against data centers and am very wary of the rush to the so called Artificial Intelligence.
That isn’t the point. Its not that they think they have to have them in Virginia. Its that companies want to locate there, and the question is for the utility company, how to supply them. They are not complaining they need a lot of power. The point is how to supply it, and the only solution is gas. Which is going to be the case no matter where they locate.
Virginia, Outer Mongolia, makes no difference, you can’t supply 24 x 7 reliable power from wind and solar.
If someone wants to open a facility in Virginia, the local utility is REQUIRED to supply them with electricity. It’s part of the charter that grants them their quasi-monopoly status.
the utilities can delay committing to hookup to the grid. And delay. And delay. The new JLARC report recommendation to the VA state Assembly is to change ‘allows delay’ to ‘allows refusal to connect’.
Agreed.
Nick, bet you didn’t know that approximately 70% of the world’s internet traffic passes through Virginia. That requires an awful lot of reliable energy!
Complaining? That is quite a spin even for you. A statement of fact is not a complaint.
Another huge assumption, if you’re going to pick nits:
Is that really all you have Nick? I don’t think you added to the discussion in any way.
The power needs to be generated (collected) as close as possible to the loads. Transmission line losses are ~ 15% for ~ 100 miles, and it goes up quickly with distance. Loosing 15% – 20% to heat (I^2*R produces heat) is a big loss. Ideally, the power would be generated on-site to the load, and as a consequence, the ideal power sources are micro and small modular nuclear reactors.
“losses are ~ 15% for ~ 100 miles”
Absurdly high. More like 7% per 1000 km for HVAC, or down to 3% per 1000 km for HVDC
Are you seriously saying the solution is to build gas, but build it out of state and pipe in the power from a neighboring state?
Even virginia gets it’s power ‘ piped in’ from the states surrounding. MS deal with a nuclear plant is in PA.
Anyway it’s AC power it doesn’t travel down pipes like cars down the highway. The electrons essentially don’t move at all
I’m saying there should at least be a national grid, and if there is difficulty powering data centres in Va (there shouldn’t be), put them somewhere else.
But the problem the head post is addressing is that you cannot power them, no matter where you locate them, by anything but gas. I guess coal too, but that is politically impossible even to raise.
The problem is that as long as they refuse to use gas they will not be able to power them, they won’t be able to meet the required electricity supply levels. Wherever they locate them!
Your argument is basically tell them to go somewhere where the state government is not trying to ban more gas generation. That is not the problem, the problem is you cannot do it without gas wherever you locate.
Its not about location, or a national grid, its about how to generate reliable 24 x 7 power at economically viable cost.
Your assertion that ‘only gas’ can work is not borne out by the facts. In the US over 80% of new power generating capacity built in the last few years were solar or wind. In VA over 90% of projects awaiting connection to the grid are solar and wind power plants.
Poor beetroot , such a low IQ it still does realise that data centre CANNOT operate with erratically variable electricity supply.
Poor vegetable-brain is getting dumber and dumber.
As I said in my my earlier comment approximately 70% of the world’s internet traffic already passes through Virginia . It is not going to locate anywhere else and will only attract more because of the infrastructure that already exists.
A national grid? Who pays for that and how long will it take to implement? Who controls the grid? Who maintains the grid?
There will be problems regardless of where they are sited.
Overly simplistic complaint as always.
A national smarter grid addresses diversity far better — allowing wind and solar to be built anywhere and operated anytime, and electricity to be used wherever needed.
Fantasy gibberish ! Electricity doesn’t work like that.
Neither do data centres.
They need electricity supply when the need it, not when the wind and sun make it available .. or not.
“operated anytime”
Wind and solar CANNOT DO THAT.
Your detractors ought to read this:
Pacific DC Intertie – Wikipedia
There is no HVDC infrastructure in place.
In Virginia.
You can’t use HVDC from wind or solar. Stepping up the voltage to those levels is not simply a step up transformer and some rectifiers. It’s not a trivial problem. Even so, the conversion to HVDC incurs some losses as well.
If the output is DC, you can put them in series like batteries and up the voltage that way. Of course should one of them go off line, the whole fails like old fashioned Christmas tree lights
Nick
Thx for the link.
You are mistaken. You have forgotten the costs of generating and reducing the voltages and the losses involved in that equipment.
I²R losses are not the only losses incurred. Have you heard of corona losses? This occurs in both HVAC and HVDC lines. Dirt and dust, humidity, line deterioration, support problems all contribute. The higher the voltage, the higher the losses.
Most regulated utility companies in the U.S. have crews dedicated to locating these problems. How do you detect it? Turn on an AM radio and drive a line. Corona causes massive interference to AN radios. How do you isolate the problem to a pole? Start smacking them with a sledgehammer to see if the noise changes!
No, COAL is by far the best option in Virginia. They have plenty of high quality thermal coal.
Nat gas is preferable and is a higher priority for VA
Great to see you advocating the use of hydrocarbon fuels ! 🙂
Coal would be cheaper in the long run.
I didn’t advocate for hydrocarbons. I said nat gas was preferred vs coal by the State of VA. And no, natural gas plants are cheaper over their life cycle vs coal plants.
Yes, you did advocate for hydrocarbon fuels.. in particular, gas.
You still are.
Never. Show me where. I’ve described what the state of Virgina is currently doing, but haven’t advocated for fossil fuels. Quite the opposite.
You said “Nat gas is preferable”
Great to see you advocating for natural gas, a hydrocarbon, FOOL !
Coal has been wrongfully demonized.
Not practical ,except with SMRs. And the earliest estimate for SMR feasibility are 2035 plus.
China has a small pebble bed reactor providing commercial electricity already
It is modular design, so the only obstacle in political will. !
But I agree, Gas or Coal would be the first choices to get reliable electricity quickly.
I was talking about on site generation for data centers.
Irrelevant..
Many places have small coal fired plants connected to them
A modular pebble bed reactor could be built anywhere a small coal or gas plant could.
Great to see you still advocating hydrocarbon-based electricity supply. 🙂
Many? Name 3 or 5?
https://www.powermag.com/power-demand-from-data-centers-keeping-coal-fired-plants-online/
“Power Demand from Data Centers Keeping Coal-Fired Plants Online”
Yes, I understand this is correct.
Very relevant. Data centers in Virginia aren’t installing coal fired plants for on site generation. When SMRs show up and are proven, I think data centers would consider them for on site generation.
They could easily install local COAL fired power if they were allowed to.
Small coal fired power stations have existed for over a century and in fact drove much of the industrial revolution.
They certainly can’t install wind and solar.
They would not be able to function.
That’s just flying unicorns….they want grid power
Actually, data centers prefer on site power. Then they will not have to get power commitments from the local utility, which is becoming more difficult.
“data centers prefer on site power”
So you ARE advocating for GAS…
.. even someone as DUMB and IGNORANT as you, must know they can never operate using wind and solar.
They require 24/7/365 reliable electricity, which wind and solar can never supply.
Entergy La. Confirms Meta Data Center Behind 3 Proposed Gas Plants
https://www.rtoinsider.com/93377-entergy-confirms-meta-data-center/
“ExxonMobil plots natural gas power plant to exclusively power data centers”https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/exxonmobil-plots-natural-gas-power-plant-to-exclusively-power-data-centers/
I think that article supports the post I made that data centers are indeed trying to use on site power generation.
NuScale (NYSE:SMR) 77MW reactors can be commercially available in large quantities from an assembly line factory in 2028, delivered to the job site on semi-trailers and up and running after a two year build and commissioning: 2030 not 2035. All that is required is a 2025 financial package that includes incentives from the federal government (less than $10 billion), pennies compared to what we waste on worth less than nothing wind and solar.
NuScale has ordered long lead items that are being manufactured in South Korea, which is fine for a couple demonstration projects, but to be competitive they have to be mass produced.
I don’t know of any utilities in VA that are ordering up new nuclear plants, or that think SMRs are commercially viable so far. I expect the utilities are aware of NuScale, but they have been burned so many times by nuclear plant construction delays and cost overruns that they are going to take some convincing before trying again.
Today, in Virginia, 90% of new power plants awaiting connection to the grid, or under construction, are solar or wind. The other 10% are natural gas fired.
Wind and solar will NOT be able to drive a data centre.
Even someone as mentally deprived as you are, must know that.
So you must mean GAS, since you have a brain-numbed hatred of coal.
Well, “losing” is the correct word, but I suppose one could “let loose” some line loss.
Northern VA data centers will be mostly served by NOVEC, the largest electric Co-op in the US. And their demand is expected to increase 10-fold over the next 5 years. NOVEC will be getting as much as they can from the PJM grid, so much of the Northern VA data center electricity will come not from Virginia, but from out of state generation.
“from out of state generation.”
If reliability is needed, it will come from COAL or GAS or nuclear.
It will come from whatever generation source is available or can be built
NO .. It CANNOT come from wind and solar..
It must be a large percent GAS or COAL or NUCLEAR to meet the reliability requirements of the data centre
Even a complete moron must realise that.
but from out of state generation.
I’m curious what happens when those out of state sources don’t generate enough to serve their own local customers?
Utilities are required to keep the grid reliable and delivering power to existing customers as a first priority. If the increased demand from whatever source gets ahead of the planned additions to utility infrastructure, the utilities turn down those new customers.
the utilities turn down those new customers.
So that energy won’t be coming from anywhere. You really think that’s going to work?
The utilities turn down new customers if they cant deliver the power or cant connect them. That process has been in place forever.
So you are saying they will need to build new reliable electricity supplies.. just like the main topic says.
Great to see you ADVOCATING for GAS, or coal or nuclear. !!
“Utilities are required to keep the grid reliable and delivering power to existing customers as a first priority. “
So you are saying they should STOP BUILDING WIND AND SOLAR…
.. and use GAS, COAL or NUCLEAR.
Finally something we can agree on.
What? Come again?
Missing the point.
Data centers are going to increase demand. No matter where they are, and no matter where the power to meet this demand is generated, it can only be generated by gas (or coal for that matter). You cannot do this with wind and solar. I guess you can do it with nukes too, if you thought it was going to be possible to build any.
Virginia is a particular case because of the amount of data centers. But it applies anywhere, moving them out of state would not change the situation. Getting the power from out of state will not make wind and solar any more fit for purpose.
Notice that big tech, all of it, is confronting this same problem. They are opting for mini-nukes, which gives you an idea how desperate they are. An unproven technology at scale. But what are they to do? Political correctness will not allow gas or coal either by them or their utility companies. Wind and solar simply will not work to deliver reliable 21 x 7 power. So the least bad alternative seems like mini-nukes, risky though it must be.
Lets see your estimates for meeting UK demand from wind and solar. I keep asking, and despite evidently wanting to believe its possible you never give any figures. How much
To deliver reliable power for the country, 50GW+ peak demand and providing for 10 day calms when wind generation falls to 5% average and solar vanishes for three months of the year.
Of course the data centers do not NEED to be in Virginia. But they are here…and they aren’t going anywhere else anytime soon. And they keep building. I live in Ashburn, Virginia, in eastern Loudoun County. There might be more data centers here than in Silicon Valley. I have watched them go up, drive by them all the time. What else is also building? Transmission lines, substations, generator farms. According to the link I attach – hopefully it will attach – there are 133 data centers just in and around Ashburn. Renewables will not – never – cut it to power these.
https://www.datacentermap.com/usa/virginia/ashburn/
Approximately 70% of the world’s internet traffic already passes through Virginia.
Your comment is loaded with assumptions demonstrating a lack of knowledge and of insight.
Once again, you nit pick to avoid the larger, global issue.
It is true the data centers do not “need” to be in Virginia, but there are existing infrastructures that make it more economical to locate there. Primarily, the internet backbone that currently exists.
It is true the power does not “need” to be generated in Virginia, but there are practicalities that make it more economical to general locally than remotely. Once again, infrastructure is critical to the economics. But the real point is, the power has to be generated if those data centers are built, wherever they are built and wherever the power is generated.
When one includes economics, one strives to achieve the optimum. Your comment totally ignores that basic concept.
Virginia is among the blue states—others include California, New York, and Massachusetts—digging themselves into a big climate hole they will regret. Sooner is better than later.
In Wokeachusetts there isn’t even a smidgen of resistance to Net Zero. It’s discussed here as if it’s really possible.
Love your comments, but there’s a reason Mainiacs call your fellow travelers Massholes.
Hey Joseph, I think you’re more than a “smidgen” 🙂
Fire up all fossil fuel and nuclear generators, build new fossil fuel and nuclear generators. Remove all wind and solar from the grid.
The inability of ideology to adjust to reality is astonishing.
“Re-imagine” Germany (read – Virginia) with its ideological wind and solar powering its data centers – along comes a series of ‘dunkelflautes’, known as ‘dunkelflukes’ in the energy game.
Even worse is the British plan to ‘decarbonize’ their military, including tanks – a one mile battery range and DEAD DUCK soldiers. Better to surrender now.
The oligarchs put ideology aide when their money is in jeopardy. Gates, Zuck, Bezos; all are building their own nuclear and gas turbine systems for the data centers and AI. Zuck is sucking up to Trump. Is Trump dumb enough to believe $1 million is a meaningful sum to an oligarch worth 215 $billion. That is his earnings during a 30 minute lunch.
I dont know what you mean about ‘adjusting to reality. Virginia is fully prepared to import power from outside the state. And the VA Clean Economy Plan doesnt put renewable energy requirements on out of state power.
“import power from outside the state.”
Which will be COAL or GAS or NUCLEAR.
Thanks for showing us that Virginia is just “virtue-seeking” and bending over to the “green” AGW fallacy.
I said nothing of the sort. I said VA was importing power from outside the state and the imported power is *not required* to be renewable.
In fact, If they want reliable electricity, it CANNOT be renewables.
Great to see you advocating hydrocarbon fuels. 🙂
i reported on Virginias laws and their effect. That’s reporting, BNICE, , no advocacy involved.
Poor beetroot, you have dug yourself into the bottom of your own mental sewer.. and are stuck there.. still digging feverishly.. HILARIOUS.
Data centres REQUIRE reliable electricity.
Wind and solar need not apply.
It sounds like they are probably bright enough to emulate California where out of state power from thermal generation is assessed a “carbon tax” (or whatever CA is calling it) which of course raises the cost of the electricity to users in CA.
Off-shoring emissions is a very old and common tactic for watermelons.
This post inspired a much larger, more general and irrefutable comment about the impossibility of renewables as a climate change ‘mitigation’.
Fact. Renewables are intermittent, as the sun does not always shine and the wind does not always blow.
Fact, in order to have a reliable grid, renewables must be backed up by fossil fuel generation. Three sub points. Nuclear is best run constant baseload—it doesn’t cycle easily. So back up is either coal spinning reserve or CCGT.
Fact, necessary FF backup means that essentially you have to build two grids—the backup guaranteed to be underutilized. That means the necessary combination will always be more expensive, and no declines in renewable future costs can offset this fundamental problem.
Virginia can pass climate laws based on hopium. But they will always run afoul of grid reality. As here.
And, an aside. NS comment about ‘wires’ solving the basic regional intermittency problem ignores a meteorological problem most evident in Europe. Dunkelflaute are generally a European wide weather problem. Building more wind here or there does not escape the basic meteorological fact of well known large scale weather fronts. It just unseriously ignores a fact known since DDay.
Virginia will be importing fossil fuel generated power because of an unprecedented surge in power demand from enormous data center growth in the state. But imported power is not subject to the Virginia Clean Economy Act. So Virginia’s goal of decarbonizing electricity generated within the state may still be practical.
So they will use hydrocarbon based electricity from out of state…
Pretending that you are “decarbonising” when importing huge amounts of hydrocarbon electricity from out of states is just FAKERY.
You know, like Germany and the UK do, with large % of their “stuff” now manufactured in CHINA using COAL-FIRED electricity, then shipped in huge STEEL ships powered by hydrocarbon fuels.
They are only fooling themselves and their gormlessly gullible apostles.
USA is also ‘saving’ power as manufacturing declines too, but as you point out it’s just made elsewhere……which means China or it’s new proxy Mexico
Remember, it’s not lying when government does it. And no one is above the law.
That’s a lie.
/sarc
Doesn’t almost all of that regional grid have nut zero fever? Who’s going to build all this new gas/coal power?
Yes. It’s even worse than that , some zealots think grid power lines are a conspiracy against roof top solar which all that’s needed
The analyses I’ve seen show that Virginia could meet its decarbonization goals for the grid using solar and wind, and without adding nuclear power.
Sales pitches. Got it.
Not sales pitches. Hard data.
Decarbonise by importing electricity from out-of-state is NOT real.
It is FAKERY.
They cannot power data centres from wind and solar.. period.
seems someone cannot face FACTS that wind and solar cannot power data centres.
Some people are just incredibly DUMB, hey !!
As long as they rely on GAS or COAL from elsewhere…
.. they are not decarbonising. !!
Wind and solar create far more real pollution during their manufacture, installation and end-of life disposal than gas, coal or nuclear ever does.
Except when all other parties also pass stupid legislation and no one has reliable power to send to VA. Note Norway’s considerations of the future of their lines to stupid Germany and its fellow travelers. Essentially, if they (Germany, etc.) are so stupid as to do what they are doing, Norway is rationally considering that it will stop — what is that word that means empowering addicts to remain addicts? — them.
Enabling.
thanks
Off-shoring emissions is not ‘practical’ it is virtue signaling at its finest.
Virginia is not importing electricity to “offshore emissions”. They are importing electricity because they can’t build power generation plants fast enough to meet the unprecedented rise in power demand from new data centers.
And those imports are coming from COAL and GAS powered plants.
They can NEVER build enough wind and solar to run data centres, they still have to RELY on RELIABLE electricity supplies from “out-of-state”.
They either have to build their own new GAS or COAL or NUCLEAR or continue to rely on GAS or COAL or NUCLEAR from “out of state”.
You have already advocated for using GAS, because you know wind and solar are not able to meet data centre requirements.
Poor widdle beetroot.
Time to face facts, turnip IQ. !
So Virginia’s goal of decarbonizing electricity generated within the state may still be practical.
But also pointless, if they’re still using fossil fuel power, regardless of source.
Hardly pointless to gradually phase our dirty fossil fuels and replace them with low carbon emission sources such as nuclear solar and wind. Except of course in the minds of Science deniers who, like the luddites, want the country to endure technological stagnation and the ever increasing damages from emission-caused climate change
Solar and wind CANNOT power a data centre, let alone any major manufacturing process.
They will lead to technological stagnation and degradation
Already happening in UK and Germany.
There is not evidence CO2 has any effect on climate
Solar and wind have a far more polluting life-cycle than gas, coal or nuclear could ever have.
Poor red turnip, cannot make a coherent response.
Perhaps it would like to explain where the power to run 24/7 data centres comes from on low-wind nights.
Is the beetroot advocating GAS.. or maybe coal or Nuclear.
Please explain just what is “nuclear solar and wind”… thanks.
That’s not a serious question. Try again.
That is a moronically empty comment…
… try again.. see if you can get even more moronic.
LOL. So they export their CO2 to become net zero. What exactly does that do for the planet (based on the false assumption CO2 is evil)?
Untrue. (Read the thread to discover the real reason for importing power — the state can’t meet the unprecedented growth in electrical demand from new data center construction without importing some of its electricity. Has nothing to do with ‘offshoring emissions” as you claim)
You cannot meet the electrical demand of a data centre with wind and solar..
So you MUST be advocating the construction of more GAS, coal or nuclear within Virginia..
…. or continue the RELIANCE of GAS, coal, nuclear power from out of state.
We can certainly agree that Virginia can NEVER meet the requirements of data centres with wind and solar.
They will either have to build extra GAS, coal or nuclear powered electricity supply..
…, or import GAS, coal or nuclear electricity from out of state.
Even the dumbest beetroot IQ must realise this fact.
Story tip.
https://news.mit.edu/2024/commonwealth-fusion-systems-unveils-worlds-first-fusion-power-plant-1217
First fusion power generating facility headed to Virginia. Based on R&D performed at MIT.