The Geological Record of Climate Change and Why Today’s Increase in Atmospheric CO2 Is the Result of Global Warming, Not the Cause

David Shelley*

The climate is changing, and the geological record of climate change clearly shows that (a) we live in an unusually cold climate, (b) recent warming is neither dangerous or unusual, and (c) the main drivers of climate change are the sun, the oceans, and plate tectonics.

First, I will describe climate change over the last million years, and especially the last 120,000 years, including local (Christchurch, NZ) and other well-known examples. Then I will put this in the context of the last 540,000,000 years, a period known as the Phanerozoic during which most complex life forms developed and evolved. This period was almost always much warmer than today, with this warmer climate being punctuated by three important cold periods, one of which we remain in today.

I will then discuss in section 3 below the roles CO2 and our emissions play in climate. I will argue that almost all our emissions should have dissolved in the oceans to maintain an equilibrium partitioning of ca. 50/1 CO2 between the oceans and the atmosphere, which means that all other things being equal, CO2 levels in the atmosphere should have risen by only 7 ppm. This is not what has happened, and climate scientists have proposed, therefore, that our CO2 emissions must “hang around” in the atmosphere for 300 to 1000 years. However, that idea makes no sense, given that every water droplet in clouds is dissolving CO2 and transporting it via rain into the oceans. No reason to hang around at all. Instead, I propose that the observed ocean warming since 1905 (probably due to the sun, possibly volcanic activity) has resulted in the release of oceanic CO2, which is the main reason why atmospheric CO2 has increased by 140 ppm. I propose, too, that ocean warming is responsible for warming the lower atmosphere. Our emissions play no part whatsoever in the global warming.

I go on to discuss the disgraceful mismatch between facts and the political and activist commentaries on present-day warming. It is remarkable that the UN and climate activists do not correctly report what the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) concludes about severe weather events and their frequency. It is a fact that the IPCC finds no clear evidence for attributing most such events to the influence of human emissions.

I provide a section on agriculture and methane emissions. It is significant that a distinguished climate scientist has recently described those emissions as “not a problem”.

Finally, I discuss what comes next, climate-wise. A very cold glaciation in 80,000 years is probable. In the meantime we do need to cut our use of fossil fuels, but there is no rush, and we would do this, not to control emissions or climate, but because fossil fuels are valuable finite resources.

*David Shelley gained his PhD from Bristol University and then lectured in geology for nearly 40 years at the University of Canterbury, Christchurch, NZ. He was Dean of Postgraduate Studies for 6 years. He is the author of 62 research papers and two textbooks, one on mineralogy, the other on igneous and metamorphic petrology.

1. The last one million years of climate change

We live in a very cold period of Earth’s history, with the last 1,000,000 years or so marked by regular oscillations (roughly every 100,000 years) from extremely cold glacial periods to relatively short warmer periods of the order of 10,000 years long that are called interglacials. The following figure shows the well-known parallel ups and downs of temperature (T) and CO2 recorded in ice cores from Antarctica over the last 450,000 years. Note that Ts in the interglacials 125,000 and 325,000 years ago were higher than those today. Note, too, that the present interglacial is marked by several rapid oscillations of T. It should also be noted that Ts in the tropics did not change markedly while Ts were oscillating wildly at the poles. I will show later how these Ts relate to global average Ts and latitude.

Time series of temperature and CO2 concentration from the Vostok ice core, retrieved, respectively. From Koutsoyiannis D, 2024, https://www.aimspress.com/journal/MBE, and in turn from http://cdiac.ess-dive.lbl.gov/ftp/trends/temp/vostok/vostok. 1999.temp.data from http://cdiac.ess-dive.lbl.gov/ftp/trends/co2/vostok.icecore.co2

The maximum T of the present interglacial was reached about 8,000 years ago, and it is known by geologists as the Holocene climate optimum. This T maximum was marked by a sea level ca. 2 metres higher than today. Ts have generally cooled since then with several fluctuations, one of which we are experiencing today as a slight global warming. Locally, around Christchurch, the evidence for the higher Holocene climate optimum sea level is clear. Ditches in the Dallington region exposed deposits of flat beach pebbles, marking the higher coastline, and alongside the road between Tai Tapu and the Gebbies Pass turnoff there is a series of sea cliffs and wave cut platforms in the volcanic rocks of Banks Peninsula that mark the higher sea stand. The high sand dunes alongside Linwood Ave near the Avon River probably relate to this higher sea level. Evidence for similarly high sea levels and Ts has also been found in the Thames and Northland regions of NZ, along the east coast of Australia, and generally around the world. The famous stone village of Skara Brae in the Orkneys dates back some 6,000 years, and the local vegetation at that time indicates a warmer climate.

The fluctuations of T during the Holocene have been marked by retreats and advances of mountain glaciers. The historical evidence of glacial advances during the Little Ice Age over the last few hundred years in the European Alps is well known. Now, with modern warming, glaciers are retreating, but as they retreat they reveal the remains of older Holocene forests, which clearly show that the glaciers had retreated previously to a greater extent than today. How, otherwise, did Hannibal get his elephants over the Alps? The same situation is found in Scandinavia and Alaska. The present-day retreat of glaciers in NZ must be seen in this context. Nothing extraordinary is going on.

Twenty thousand years ago, at the height of the last intense glaciation, all of Canada and northern Europe (including much of Britain) was covered in ice sheets, many more than a kilometre thick. The South Island lakes of NZ did not exist, because those valleys were filled with ice up to ca. one kilometre thick. This huge amount of ice meant that sea levels globally were ca. 140 metres lower than today. In Sumner, Christchurch, you’d need binoculars to see the shoreline way away in the distance from the present-day beach. Imagine, no North Sea, no English Channel, no trees in Canada or Britain (Britain had ice sheets in the north and a cold frozen treeless land in the south). Coastlines globally were hugely different from today, with vast coastal areas exposed that have now been swamped by oceans that have risen by 140 metres. The ice would have been slow to melt in the first stages of interglacial warming, but the rapid rise of Ts into the Holocene climate maximum would eventually have been accompanied by huge amounts of melting and sea level rises of at least the order of 2 metres every 100 years. This substantial and rapid global warming from 20,000 to 8,000 years ago took place without the influence of any human-generated CO2. The Holocene climate optimum was marked by the development of the Sahara desert, which previously had been a watery lush area occupied by humans. As climate change and the developing desert made life impossible, the tribes of the Sahara region moved to the Nile River where they engineered irrigation schemes watered by the Nile and established the great Egyptian civilization.

One hundred and twenty-five thousand years ago, at the height of the last interglacial, Ts were higher than those of the Holocene climate optimum, and sea levels were ca. 10 metres higher than today. Evidence is easy to find, and includes the Florida Keys, which represents a barrier coral reef that grew at that time but is now stranded because of the onset of the last glaciation that lowered sea levels by ca. 150 metres, followed by the present-day interglacial and oceanic rise of ca. 140 metres. London at this time had something approaching a Mediterranean climate, as recorded by fossils now on display in a London museum. I believe evidence for this high stand of 10 metres can be seen around Sumner in Christchurch, NZ (my observations, not closely examined and studied — a good project for a student?). The cliffs at Whitewash Head seem to display a large wave-cut platform that extends out to sea about 10 metres above present sea level, and I suggest that Cave Rock, Shag Rock, the old flat-topped sea stack on Nayland St to the west of the library, the flat topped cliff at the west end of Peacocks Gallop that once connected with the top of the higher pre-earthquake sea stack of Shag Rock, and the flat-topped sea stack at the western end of Beachville Rd in Redcliffs, are all remains of this ca. 10 metre-high wave-cut platform of 125,000 years ago.

To summarise, over the last million years, every 100,000 years has been marked by a glaciation with sea levels some 140 metres lower than today, and with huge kilometre-thick glaciers covering vast areas of north America and Europe (and filling all the glacial lakes of southern NZ). The Great Barrier Reef of Australia, which would have re-grown during each interglacial, would have been left stranded during each glaciation as a >100 metre-high exposed mass of dead coral that would have been massively eroded by the colder oceans during storms. During every interglacial, for a relatively short time, the barrier reef would have grown again as sea levels rose and ocean Ts rose, only to be left stranded and exposed above sea level every time a new glaciation was initiated. The reef is therefore very much a temporary feature that comes and goes with these regular fluctuations of T and climate. Coastlines changed dramatically with the repeated huge changes in sea level. Fauna and flora would have been under almost constant pressure to migrate and evolve dynamically as the environment was undergoing these dramatic changes.

The last 100 years of global warming is almost imperceptible and inconsequential in the context of all this. Now, let’s look at the broader geological picture of the Phanerozoic.

2. Climate change during the Phanerozoic — the last 540,000,000 years

Geologists have been gathering evidence about climate change for more than 200 years, long before anyone else had even thought about the subject. I was very lucky to study geology first in the 1950s as a schoolboy in South Wales, UK. Cycling from my home, I was able to examine a succession of rocks 425 to 200 million years old that started with coral reefs, then desert sands, coral reefs again, a rain forest (coals and river sands), more desert sands, and finally warm sea deposits. Three times South Wales had been under the sea, twice above sea level, and the changes in climate were obvious. South Wales is presently above sea level and a wet, green, temperate place, but I was aware that much of Britain had been covered very recently in thick ice, making South Wales uninhabitable until ca. 10,000 years ago. Climate change indeed. I am old enough that my early days of geology predate the development of the theory of plate tectonics, and understanding the geological record of climate change was then difficult. What a revolution plate tectonics was, opening our eyes to much more cogent explanations of what has been happening over many millions of years.

Geologists have long been aware that Earth has usually been much warmer than today. A recent synthesis of the data is that of Scotese et al., published in Earth Science Reviews in 2021, and figure 23 from that paper is given below. It shows just how very low the present-day global average T of 14 °C is (far right of the diagram). It shows three very cold periods at ca. 450 million years (Ordovician), 300 million years (Carboniferous–Permian), and the present day. It also shows how much warming would be required to escape from the present glaciation. Scotese et al. support the general idea that human emissions are causing global warming. I will argue against that later. The main point I would immediately make is that more global warming would simply restore Earth to a more normal climate. We should not be alarmed by it, because animals and plants thrived during the very warm periods of Earth’s history. Strangely, however, the greatest ever mass extinction event (perhaps 96% of species became extinct) took place 252 million years ago at the end of the Permian ice age when Earth was warming. We do not know the reason.

The record of average global temperatures over the last 540 million years, and the projection of future global warming onto the Phanerozoic Temperature Time Scale. The likely amount of Post-Anthropogenic Warming (PAW) (red line). The boxes indicate times in the geological past when global temperatures were within the range of predicted PAW. When the Global Average Temperature is below 18 °C large polar icecaps can form. When the Global Average Temperature is above 18 °C large polar icecaps are unlikely to form.

Figure 7 from the Scotese et al. paper is shown next, and it shows what global average Ts of between 8 and 23 °C would mean in terms of Ts from the poles to the equator. The coldest 8 °C global average T would mean Ts of minus 50 °C at the poles but with Ts remaining close to 30 °C at the equator. The present-day global average T of ca. 14 °C is shown as a dashed line. Ts at the equator will never vary much from 30 °C while Ts at the poles will vary markedly with any change in average T. For 63% of Phanerozoic history, the global average T has been between 19 and 21 °C, which is 6 °C on average warmer than today. The very slight global warming of the last 100 years is really neither here nor there, and the very idea that Earth is facing a threat to its very existence, or in the words of the UN, entering an era of global boiling, is simply stupid.

The polar temperature and the Pole to Equator temperature gradient for different Global Average Temperatures (GAT). Polar Temperature = average temperature above 67° latitude (N&S), Deep Sea = the average temperature at the bottom of the oceans (after Valdes et al., 2020). Pole to Equator Gradient = the average change in temperature for every one degree of latitude measured between 30° and 60° latitude. The Pole to Equator temperature gradient is shallow near the Equator and steepens rapidly near the Pole. The plus signs are the combined average temperatures for the present-day northern and southern hemispheres. Frequency = the percent of the time during the Phanerozoic characterized by this Pole-to-Equator temperature gradient. All of these calculations are based on an average tropical temperature of 26 °C (15 N – 15 S).

3. The drivers of climate change

The IPCC was set up to investigate the relationship between modern global warming and our CO2 emissions. A reasonable hypothesis is that if CO2 is a potent greenhouse gas, then our emissions may be causing global warming, perhaps dangerously. But if we are doing science, we must also consider the possibility that CO2 is not a potent driver of warming, and that the warming we observe is the result of something else. Unfortunately, the IPCC has become completely obsessed with the idea that CO2 is the potent driver of warming. It quickly rejects any other possibility. Yet a key factor in assessing the potency of CO2 is knowing a value for the so-called climate sensitivity of CO2. A sensitivity of 1 would mean that a doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere would warm Earth by 1 °C (hardly a threat to Earth’s existence), a sensitivity of 6 would mean a warming of 6 °C. Yet even the IPCC admits we still do not know what the sensitivity is. The literature is filled with estimates that range from less than 1 to 6 (figure below). How then can one put any faith in the modelling of climate scientists when one of the most fundamental factors is unknown? Modelling may be a useful adjunct to science, but it is not real science. Science must be based on facts and observations, not predictions based on uncertainties. The fact that there have been innumerable attempts to model future Ts, all giving different answers, and with nearly all of them running hot relative to real observations, means the results of modelling are simply not credible. Yet these models are used by the UN to threaten us with doom and gloom. So let us look at alternatives to the IPCC narrative.

The hypothesis underlying the IPCC narrative can be summed up as follows. (1) CO2 is a greenhouse gas (TRUE, but we must remember we really do not know how potent it is as a greenhouse gas). (2) We are emitting CO2 into the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels (TRUE). (3) The amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing (TRUE). (4) Earth is warming (TRUE). (5) Therefore, our emissions are causing global warming (NO. This is the flaw in the argument, as I will explain here).

Our emissions are tiny in amount relative to the total amount of carbon in the ocean–atmosphere system. According to the IPCC (2022), our emissions since industrialization amount to 2500 GtCO2, the equivalent of 320 ppm CO2 in the atmosphere. The oceans contain 50 times more C than the atmosphere, and this ratio of 50/1 must represent some sort of dynamic equilibrium partitioning of the CO2 between ocean and atmosphere. To maintain that equilibrium, one would have expected 98% of our emissions since industrialization to have been taken in by the oceans, leaving 50 GtCO2 in the atmosphere (just 7 ppm). Clearly, this is not what has happened, because atmospheric CO2 has risen since industrialization from 280 ppm to 420 ppm, a rise of 140 ppm, not just 7 ppm. NASA suggests, therefore, that CO2 must hang around in the atmosphere, residing there for anything between 300 and 1000 years, causing global warming. However, we know that (a) CO2 dissolves very easily in water, (2) the atmosphere is far from static, and often very turbulent in stormy weather, (3) the oceans, too, especially at the interface with the atmosphere, may also be very turbulent, and (4) water particles in clouds absorb CO2 from the atmosphere, and then send that CO2 into the oceans as acid rain (all rain is acid because of dissolved CO2). It seems to me, therefore, absurd to suggest that our CO2 emissions can just hang around in the atmosphere instead of moving into the oceans to maintain the equilibrium partitioning of ca. 50/1. Something else must be happening, and indeed it is — the oceans are warming.

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) of the United States has a record of sea surface Ts of the oceans since 1880, and the NOAA graph below shows that warming started suddenly in earnest around 1905. There was a bit of a hiatus from 1945 to 1975, but then warming continued until the present day. Henry’s Law dictates that if the oceans warm they will release CO2 into the atmosphere. Indeed, the equilibrium partitioning ratio of CO2 between ocean and atmosphere will gradually reduce from the figure of 50/1 as CO2 is released. I have called this “dynamic equilibrium partitioning”, because while Henry’s Law must apply, the heterogeneities in the ocean atmosphere system where water and CO2 are being partitioned are considerable, and one can only look broadly at the Earth system as a whole. Never mind, we already do that sort of broad thinking when we talk about average global Ts, and so on.

Annual global sea surface temperature anomalies from 1880 to 2015 with superimposed linear trend (base period1951-1980), red positive, blue negative. http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cag/timeseries/global/globe/ocean/ytd/12/1880-2016.

If CO2 is released from the oceans, this will counteract the movement of CO2 from the atmosphere into the oceans (a buffering effect) and some of our emitted CO2 will be retained in the atmosphere because of this buffering. The equilibrium partitioning ratio of 50/1 will reduce as the oceans warm, and it is easy to demonstrate that our emissions are so small compared to the total amount already in the entire ocean–atmosphere system that the increase in atmospheric CO2 would be more-or-less the same regardless as to how much we emit. As noted above, if the oceans weren’t warming, our emissions would only have increased the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere by 7 ppm. The fact that CO2 has increased by 140 ppm is because the oceans are warming and expelling CO2. Our emissions are hanging around in the atmosphere only because of the buffering effect. One may conclude, therefore, that the increase in the global average T of the lower atmosphere is because of the warming of the oceans, not our emissions.

4. The oceans

The oceans, which are warming, are very much capable of warming the atmosphere. This is immediately evident when major changes take place in the pattern of ocean currents. When the equatorial trade winds blow more strongly westwards from South America, they push the waters of the Pacific Ocean westwards, thus dragging up much colder water from depth along the S American coast and spreading those colder waters westwards into the Pacific. The surge of water westwards causes sea levels in northern Australia to rise, making it easier for the Great Barrier Reef to grow (coral reefs need space to grow upwards). This is the La Nina pattern, which is relatively cool because of the upsurge of cold deep Pacific water. When the trade winds are less strong, much less cold water is drawn up, the Pacific Ocean to the west of S America becomes warmer again (now called El Nino), and sea levels fall in Australia, making life more difficult for the corals, bringing them closer to the hot sun, and perhaps leading to bleaching. During a strong El Nino, global lower atmospheric Ts rise by ca. 1 °C in just a year or two, and then fall by the same amount very rapidly when El Nino stops. The 1 °C rise has nothing whatsoever to do with our emissions. Yet the climate alarmists still tell us that a 1.5 °C warming is dangerous, and that global warming over the last 100 years is unusually rapid. What rubbish both those statements are.

If we recognize the ability of the oceans to warm the atmosphere, it is hardly surprising to find that the graph of lower atmospheric global warming (next figure) almost exactly mimics the graph for the warming of the oceans (figure above). This suggests very strongly that the Ts of the lower atmosphere are directly linked to those of the oceans. This is not surprising, given that the oceans have a mass enormously greater than the atmosphere, and that water is remarkable for its unusually large heat capacity, enabling it to store huge amounts of heat. In contrast, the atmosphere is ill equipped to store heat, and it cannot effectively warm the oceans, as explained by Brendan Godwin (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351436065_The_GHE_Theory_cannot_warm_the_oceans). The fact that average global sea surface Ts are between 20 and 21 °C, and that the average global lower atmosphere T is just 14 °C, also makes it unlikely the atmosphere can be warming the oceans.

Global monthly average surface air temperature since 1850 according to Hadley CRUT, a cooperative effort between the Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research and the University of East Anglia‘s Climatic Research Unit (CRU), UK. The blue line represents the monthly values.

We all know from beach-side experiences that the air is barely able to make any impression on the T of the sea, and we all know that the direct light of the sun is immediately able to warm the oceans down to a reasonable depth. So why is it that the IPCC and climate scientists are obsessed with the atmosphere and not the oceans? Indeed, miffed by lower atmospheric warming not being as great as predicted in their models, climate scientists claim that the greenhouse heating of the atmosphere has been lost from the atmosphere to the oceans, causing their warming. I quote from a NOAA document on Ocean Heat Content “The ocean is storing an estimated 91 percent of the excess heat energy trapped in the Earth’s climate system by excess greenhouse gases”. It is strange that it is claimed the turbulence of the ocean–atmosphere interface leads to the transfer of heat from the atmosphere into the ocean, yet it is also claimed that CO2 has to hang around in the atmosphere because there is insufficient activity at that interface. Strange, too, that the atmosphere is supposed to heat the oceans, despite being significantly cooler on average than the oceans. And also remember it is yet to be established that CO2 is a potent greenhouse gas (we still don’t know what CO2 climate sensitivity is).

Furthermore, it is noteworthy that the graph of upper sea-level temperatures from NOAA (second figure up above) shows a very sudden and rapid rise of Ts from about 1905. Apart from the hiatus in T rise from 1945 to 1975, the graph shows a more-or-less constant rate of increase in T. How could that possibly be if warming was due to greenhouse-gas heat from the atmosphere? — because back in 1905 our emissions were small. If greenhouse-gas heating were responsible, one would expect the increase in T to start very gradually, and to be much more rapid as one approaches the present day.

So what may be heating the oceans if not the greenhouse gas heat of the atmosphere? The sun is the most obvious answer. Climate scientists now reluctantly accept that the 100,000 year cycles of glaciation and interglacial over the last million years are primarily due to changes in the amount of heat derived from the sun, due to Milankovitch cycles, the main one of which is the 100,000 year cycle of changing distance of the Earth’s orbit from the sun. Closer to the sun, an interglacial, further away a glaciation. Nevertheless, the obsession with CO2 continues with many climate scientists suggesting the Milankovitch effect is very slight, and that the slight initial heating drives CO2 from the ocean, and that this CO2 then warms the atmosphere due to the greenhouse effect, and that the atmosphere then warms the oceans further leading to more CO2 escape. Sounds like a chain reaction, but no it can’t be, because the warming eventually stops, and the CO2 is miraculously absorbed again by the oceans, which are cooling into the next glaciation. This complex explanation is implausible when compared to the simpler and more logical explanation that the cycle of warming and cooling is completely the result of the Milankovitch cycle, which first brings Earth closer to the sun, causing ocean heating and exsolution of CO2 from the warming seas, and which then causes Earth to retreat from the sun, cooling the oceans, thus enabling them to absorb the CO2 again as Earth enters another glaciation (just to remind everyone that a cold ocean will dissolve more CO2 than a warm ocean).

What may be the cause of modern warming, if it is not due to the greenhouse effect of our emissions? Again, I would point to the sun first and foremost. There are four different Milankovitch cycles, depending on (1) distance of Earth from the Sun due to eccentricity of its orbital path (ca. 100,000-year cycles), (2) tilt of Earth relative to the orbit (41,000-year cycles), and (3 and 4) precession (25,000- and 112,000-year cycles). The 100,000 year cycle operates because it moves the Earth closer then further away from the sun. The other cycles may result in more ocean being exposed to the sun, and they would reinforce each other if they became effective at the same time. I’m not aware of any deep investigation into whether or not the minor cycles may now be reinforcing the warmth of the present interglacial. This needs to be done (but not by me!!). Another option for increased warmth is a change in cloud cover. It has also been suggested that an increase in volcanic activity beneath the ocean surface could be a cause of heating. Opponents of that idea say that there is simply not enough volcanism taking place, but this does not properly take into account the fact that there is 65,000 kilometres of mid-ocean ridges in the oceans, and magma (which would be ca. 1,000 °C) is almost constantly being emplaced, or cooling off, in a zone that extends downwards several kilometres below the ridges themselves. This activity is often not accompanied by obvious lava eruptions on the ocean surface, and we simply don’t have enough observations or details about the thermal effects of this cryptic activity, which may possibly be episodic.

5. Plate tectonics

Even if we abandon the idea that CO2 is driving global warming, and instead look to the sun and the oceans for answers, we have not explained the major changes in climate through the Phanerozoic. Why three major periods of glaciation, including the present-day cold period? Geology would tell us that it is due to the distribution of continental masses and oceans on Earth’s surface. The present day glacial period can be related to the breakup of Pangea and later Gondwana. But first to the glacial period 300 million years ago. Supercontinent Pangea was formed at the end of the Carboniferous. My last research project was in NW France, where my French colleague Gérard Bossière and I proposed that the huge transcurrent faults of Armorica possibly represent thousands of kilometres of sideways movement along the collision zone of Laurentia (which was made up mainly of the north America craton) and Gondwana, leading to the formation of the supercontinent Pangea. Indeed, the positioning of Pangea over the south pole led to a major glaciation because warming of the polar region by the oceans was simply not possible.

Pangea eventually broke up with the opening of the Atlantic Ocean, and later Gondwana broke up with Antarctica becoming separated from South Africa, Australia, and India. Antarctica was positioned over the south pole, and the Arctic Ocean at the north pole became almost completely surrounded by continental material, isolating it from warmer ocean currents. Once the Drake Passage opened between South America and Antarctica, the Southern Ocean, swept along by the roaring forties, developed the circum-Antarctic current, which effectively isolates Antarctica from the warming influences of ocean currents coming from the tropics. Hence the development of the present-day bi-polar glaciation.

The Ordovician glaciation of 450 million years ago corresponds to a time when most continental masses encircled an ocean at the south pole, again inhibiting the warming of the polar area by warm ocean currents. Interestingly to me, some of the drop-stone deposits of that glaciation are found in NW France (Armorica), where I conducted my most recent research.

The greenhouse gas effect of CO2 is pretty-well irrelevant to these arguments. Although measuring CO2 past levels is more difficult than measuring past Ts, there is a clear tendency for there to be more CO2 in the atmosphere when Earth is warm,  and less when Earth is cold. The climate activists argue therefore that the warm periods are due to the high greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere. But there are three problems with this. First, one has to ask where did the CO2 come from (a question seldom answered convincingly), secondly, we must remind ourselves that we don’t know if CO2 is a potent greenhouse gas, and thirdly, there is the much simpler explanation that plate tectonics controls climate, and that when Earth warms up CO2 levels in the atmosphere rise because it is expelled from the oceans, in accordance with Henry’s Law.

Certainly, everyone must be aware that climate change is normal for Earth, has always been taking place, and has never previously needed our emissions (hardly surprising, given we’ve only been around for a few 100,000 years).

6. Politics and climate activism

We are, as they say, all like sheep when it comes to fashion, cults, politics, and religion. I had believed that science didn’t suffer from this sheep-like behaviour. Unfortunately, not today. The sheep are all bleating “The science of climate change is settled”. Just goes to show that sheep are not scientists and do not understand the first thing about science. Science, by definition, is never settled. With regard to today’s politics and activism, I had never expected the science of climate change to become the focus of so much skullduggery and simple dishonesty.

Consider first what the scientists of the IPCC in the Assessment Report 6, Chapter 11, write on pages 1583–1585: “… there is low confidence in observed long-term (40 years or more) trends in TC [tropical cyclone] intensity, frequency, and duration, and any observed trends in phenomena such as tornadoes and hail; … it is likely that the global frequency of TCs will either decrease or remain essentially unchanged, … there is low confidence in projections of small-scale phenomena such as tornadoes and hail storms; and there is medium confidence that there will be a reduced frequency and a poleward shift of mid-latitude cyclones due to future anthropogenic climate change.”  

The following table from Assessment Report 6 summarises this low confidence in any human influence on most aspects of climate change up to the present day.

Table 12.12 | Emergence of CIDs in different time periods, as assessed in this section. The colour corresponds to the confidence of the region with the highest confidence: white cells indicate where evidence is lacking or the signal is not present, leading to overall low confidence of an emerging signal.

Then contrast that with what is written in the Assessment Report 6 in the Summary for Policymakers (written by politicians):“Human-induced climate change is already affecting many weather and climate extremes in every region across the globe. Evidence of observed changes in extremes such as heatwaves, heavy precipitation, droughts, and tropical cyclones, and, in particular, their attribution to human influence, has strengthened since Assessment Report 5.”

How dishonest is that?

Then consider the following from The Club of Rome, which acts as a Think Tank and Climate Consultant for the United Nations: “The common enemy of humanity is man. In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill”. Is this what has led to the world being taken over by climate alarmists, who exaggerate, distort, and falsify what is happening with climate change? And corrupt science in the process.

Then Christiana Figueres, the Executive Secretary of the UN’s Framework Convention on Climate Change said: “Our aim is not to save the world from ecological calamity but to change the economic system….This is probably the most difficult task we have ever given ourselves, which is to transform the economic development model for the first time in human history”.

Then from IPCC official Ottmar Edenhofer: “One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. It is not. It is actually about how we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth”.

Then consider that even the respected Sir David Attenborough has been accused of indulging in what has been termed “noble corruption” (telling lies for the noble cause of tackling climate change), as described in forensic detail by Susan Crockford in her book “Fallen Icon”.

Time for the media to front up and tell everybody about what’s going on. Time to re-learn how to think and discuss, understand what science is (never settled), and stop acting like sheep.

7. What should we do about agriculture and methane emissions?

The following is taken from the Centrist NZ News Hub

NZ climate scientist Kevin Trenberth questions the scientific basis for stringent methane reduction goals and has challenged the widely held belief that these emissions significantly contribute to global warming. He says, in a comment posted to the Newsroom story, that the moral panic surrounding New Zealand’s emissions, particularly related to methane, is scientifically unfounded.

In Trenberth’s response to Daalder’s analysis, he contends that New Zealand’s agricultural methane emissions have already reached a state of net-zero impact on climate change. Trenberth’s argument centres on the notion that methane emissions from livestock are part of a natural cycle. He explains that the methane emitted by cattle and land use basically represents a re-release of carbon dioxide that was temporarily stored in short-term grasses. This cyclical process, according to Trenberth, does not result in a net harm to New Zealand’s carbon dioxide targets. “The issue is that methane is so short lived that, in fact, NZ is already at “net zero” (with regards to) methane. The numbers of livestock have been stable enough since 2010 so the amounts emitted are completely compensated by the amounts oxidised to carbon dioxide.”

“Since the methane started out as carbon dioxide in the atmosphere before being taken up in grass, and then eaten by livestock, the process is circular. The main issues with methane are fossil methane from mining operations,” he says. 

Trenberth describes the Newsroom analysis as “hokey” and that New Zealand’s stable livestock numbers since 2010 have led to a balance where the methane emitted is offset by the amount oxidised to carbon dioxide.  Trenberth correctly points out that there are fewer livestock today than there was back then, further strengthening the argument that New Zealand methane emissions are already at net zero.

Kevin Trenberth is a well-known distinguished climate scientist, originally from Christchurch NZ, and now retired back to NZ. Given that he has always supported the idea that CO2 is an important driver of modern global warming, it is particularly significant that he is willing to speak out about the nonsense of trying to control the methane emissions of livestock. NZ government take note.

8. What comes next, climate wise?

Regardless as to what is forcing the present-day warming of the oceans, be it the sun and Milankovitch cycles or submarine volcanic activity, Earth will cool down again. If plate tectonics are the basic cause of the present-day glacial period, we will not escape from the present-day cold until Antarctica moves away from the south pole, and/or the circum-Antarctic ocean current is disrupted, and/or the Arctic Ocean is opened up to warmer ocean currents. Given that none of those things are likely to happen any time soon, I fear that we are destined to follow the 100,000 year Milankovitch cycle into another intense glaciation. I have argued that our emissions are not at all responsible for the slight warming we are experiencing. We can emit as much CO2 as we like. It will not stop us entering that glaciation. That’s very very bad news, because all of Canada, most of northern Europe will become completely uninhabitable, and worst of all, CO2 contents of the atmosphere will plunge to dangerously low levels (but all that is probably 80,000 years away, when the height of the next glaciation is reached, and when sea levels are again 140 metres lower than today). If CO2 levels in the atmosphere fall below 150 ppm all life will probably be extinguished. That’s the existential danger we really face (but not in our children’s or grandchildren’s time!!).

Because they are finite resources, we must try to cut back on our use of fossil fuels, but there is no rush, and we could build the odd coal-fired power station whilst we decide how to provide enough energy and manage our resources in a more sustainable way. Forget about reaching net zero, forget about becoming a vegan to save the world, and stop telling our farmers how to manage the emissions of their livestock.

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November 2, 2024 2:36 am

Skipping the first 6000 words to Section 7

What should we do about agriculture and methane emissions?
___________________________________________________
 
It’s disappointing that the Global Warming Potential Numbers didn’t get a hearing.
___________________________________________________

Pointing out that CO2 is removed by rain drops falling through the atmosphere was a plus and will be added to an ever growing file of “Climate Change” Factoids, Quotes & Smart Remarks

Reply to  Steve Case
November 2, 2024 4:47 am

“CO2 is removed by rain drops falling through the atmosphere”
Yes, the atmosphere is a giant absorber/scrubber.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Steve Case
November 2, 2024 6:31 am

Rain removes between 100–270 x 10(12) grams of carbon dioxide (gC/a) from the atmosphere each year, which is roughly 2–6% of the current carbon dioxide emissions. This amount is comparable to the carbon emissions from volcanic sources. 

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 11:10 am

Volcanic emissions also has to include submarine which is likely quite large.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Ollie
November 2, 2024 11:26 am

All natural CO2 emissions COMBINED were not large enough to prevent several billion years of declining atmospheric CO2, now sequestered as carbon in rocks, shells, oil, gas and coal.

Nature has been a net CO2 absorber for billions of years.

The claims that average annual global volcano CO2 releases are large, or in a rising trend, are not supported by any data, so are meaningless speculation.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 3:49 pm

Nature has been a net CO2 absorber for billions of years.

Hi Mr Idiot. Where do think co2 comes from?

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 10:46 pm

Yet CO2 goes up and down following temperature..

Another FAILED comment from RG. !!!

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 3, 2024 6:07 am

So if total volcanic emissions are estimates your claim that rain removal of CO2 is comparable to such emissions is a WAG.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 3, 2024 6:24 am

If I understand the author’s argument, the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and oceans maintains a relative balance based on ocean temperature. Human emissions are minuscule in that balance and are likely to have little impact on climate dynamics or the atmospheric concentration of the gas. Would not the amount removed by rain increase as the concentration increases?

Reply to  Steve Case
November 2, 2024 2:26 pm

Grass (or any other feed) produces more methane if it rots on the ground than if it goes through an animal. An animal also uses it to produce meat, and energy. Grass eventually produces exactly the same amount of CO2 as it consumed while growing.

Reply to  Steve Case
November 2, 2024 10:15 pm

It seems likely that, given its very low atmospheric concentration, and it short life span in the atmosphere, Global Warming Potential Numbers for CH4 measured in closed cylinders in the laboratory can’t mean much in the world at large.

Reply to  AndyHce
November 14, 2024 8:23 am

Doesn’t mean a thing, because the fictitious “global warming potential” is calculated in a DRY atmosphere.

Here in reality, methane ‘absorption bands’ are 100% overlapped by WATER VAPOR, which is massively more abundant than the minuscule amounts of methane. Whatever could be absorbed by methane is ALREADY being absorbed by water vapor.

Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 2:56 am

It’s a long article with many flaws. Rather than try to enumerate them, since few will read it through, I’ll show again the graph of total carbon in the air over the last millennium, plotted with our cumulative emissions:

comment image

You can see that from 1000AD to about 1850AD, through the MWP and LIA, the ppm CO2 in bubbles preserved in the ice of Law Dome was virtually constant. Then when we started emitting, CO2 in the air tracked our emissions closely, with about 1/2 going somewhere else (very likely the sea). There is no pattern of warming that could explain these disparate observations (and no volcanoes either).

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 3:18 am

Hi Nick,

Expecting us to believe the graph was almost completely flat from 1000 to 1850?

Interesting that the rate of glacial retreat, based on the longest glacier records, was almost the same in three periods at the end of the C19th, early C20th and late C20th. Of the three the rate was slightly faster in the earliest period. Glacier and sea level records both indicate onset of modern warming is early C19th ie 1800 – 1850. Emissions were effectively zero then and, with the lag between temperature, glacial retreat and sea level (of the order of 15 – 30 years) the warming in the late C19th and early C20th century cannot be linked to emissions.

If the glacial retreat and sea level rise data shows similar warming late C20th to early C20th then emissions alone cannot be the cause. The implied GHG effect calculated by IPCC is 3x greater late C20th than early C20th and close to zero in the C19th. As already mentioed, warming rates early C20th and late C20th are similar (eg in HADCruT4)

Reply to  ThinkingScientist
November 2, 2024 5:21 am

Yes there is a CO2 hockeystick, no there is not a temperature hockeystick, trees grow better with co2, that is where Mann went wrong.

observa
Reply to  ThinkingScientist
November 2, 2024 6:26 am

Expecting us to believe the graph was almost completely flat from 1000 to 1850?

You gotta have faith and hang out with all the right people with the dooming-
How climate disaster killed half of Norway and Sweden 1,500 years ago

Reply to  ThinkingScientist
November 2, 2024 7:38 am

“As already mentioed, warming rates early C20th and late C20th are similar (eg in HADCruT4)”

Yes, not only similar to each other but similar to the current warming of today.

If you want the truth about the temperatures, then the HADCrut graph should show the 1880’s and the 1930’s and the current-day warming on the same horizontal line on the graph because all were equally warm.

That being the case, this shows that CO2 has no disceranble effect on the Earth’s temperatures because it was just as warm in the past with less CO2 in the air, as it is today with much more CO2 in the air. The amount of CO2 in the air has made no difference in temperatures.

Tha’s why the Climate Alarmists had to bastardize the global temperature record because if they told the truth, then people would see there is no crisis associated with the Earth’s climate and CO2.

Phil Jones show the warming of the past on his bastardized chart. He told the truth about the 1880’s and 1930’s, but lied about the overall picture showing it was just as warm back then as it is now.

PhilJones-The-Trend-Repeats
Richard Greene
Reply to  Tom Abbott
November 2, 2024 12:00 pm

Based on Statista data, the warming from 1910 to 1940 and the cooling from 1940 to 1975, as originally reported, have both been almost revised away. 1900 vs. 1970 average temperature by decade is almost a the same. Other sources recognize early 20th century warming … but maybe that will disappear too.

The warming from 1910 to 1940 was inaccurate data, but originally claimed as +0.4 to +0.5 degrees C. in 30 years.

The cooling from 1940 to 1975, as reported in 1975, had a maximum range from peak to trough of about -0.4 to -0.5 degrees C. The peak and trough years were not 1940 or 1975.
The cooling was revised away in the 1990s.

The warming from 1979 through 2024 per UAH was about -0.72 degrees C. … CO2 emissions are one cause,

CO2 emissions were a minor cause of climate change before the 1970s

sturmudgeon
Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 1:20 pm

Say.. haven’t the internal combustion engines been tweaked and tweaked so that “emissions” are FAR less today, than in the 1970’s???

Reply to  sturmudgeon
November 2, 2024 10:24 pm

Emissions of CO, unburnt hydrocarbons, oxides of nitrogen, and perhaps a few other less pleasant substances have been markedly reduced. CO2 is unchanged

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 1:35 pm

CO2 are a minor, if any effect on global temperatures now.

RG has shown that by his total inability to show any CO2 caused warming in the UAH data since 1979.

Warming by atmospheric CO2 has never been observed and measured anywhere on the planet.

If dickie-boi thinks it has , he should present the data.

Reply to  bnice2000
November 2, 2024 4:02 pm

he should present the data.

Believing is enough for Greene.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 1:39 pm

” CO2 emissions are one cause,”

More AGW-cult mantra BS.

Show us where the CO2 warming is in the UAH data.

Put a value to the CO2 component and prove it with actual scientific data.

Fact is, that there has been no warming in UAH except at major El Nino events.

Even a brain-washed cultist like you can’t be stupid enough to blame them on CO2.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 3, 2024 1:39 am

Here are the real temperature ranges for the recent past:

Hansen 1999:

comment image

As you can see, the temperatures warmed about 2.0C from 1910 to 1940 and cooled by about the same amount from the 1940’s to the 1970’s.

The 2.0C cooling through the 1970’s is what set off the Human-caused Global Cooling craze.

Compare the cooling on the U.S. chart with the cooling shown on the bastardized global Hockey Stick chart, which is close to the values you quote, so I assume that’s where you got those numbers.

Do you think Climate Alarmists would go into a panic over a 0.4C cooling and speculate the Earth is headed into another Ice Age?

No, they would not, But they would if the temperatures cooled by 2.0C and were nearing the cold temperatures of the 1910’s. Which is what was happening.

That Bastardized Hockey Stick chart has sown confusion in your mind. Unfortunately, you are not alone.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  ThinkingScientist
November 2, 2024 9:10 am

Expecting us to believe the graph was almost completely flat from 1000 to 1850?”

You give reasons based on temperature for doubting observed CO2 values. With ice records, we actually have samples of the air. Many things can affect temperature, but CO2 is what it is.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 9:33 am

Reference?

Resolution of measurements?

And why should the cumulative of human emissions fit the actual CO2 concentration? That would imply all human emissions were retained in the atmosphere, which given the size of the sources and sinks is clearly nonsense.

Pull the other one, its got bells on.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  ThinkingScientist
November 2, 2024 9:51 am

The primary Law Dome reference (and source of data) is Etheridge 1996

That would imply all human emissions were retained in the atmosphere”

No, it doesn’t. As I explicitly said, it implies that about 50% remained. The rest went mainly into the sea.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 11:16 am

The percentage of natural and human emissions retained in the atmosphere is the same and natural emissions far exceed human.

Reply to  ThinkingScientist
November 2, 2024 10:44 am

Measurements: Ice core bubbles contain air including all trace gases, even modern ones since they were invented (like CFC’s), without changing the composition (except a few ones), certainly not for CO2. The only drawback is that it is a mixture of several years, because it takes time to close the bubbles and isolate them from the atmosphere. That period is between 8 years and 600 years, depending of the snow accumulation.

The ice cores of Law Dome even have an overlap (1958-1978) with the direct measurements at the South Pole, within 1.2 ppmv of each other…

Similar HS’s can be found for CH4 and N2O, due to human activity…

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
November 14, 2024 10:37 am

As I recall,, the “overlap” was “created” AFTER they arbitrarily changed the “dating” of the ice core reconstructions WITHOUT any scientific justification for doing so, since before that it showed CO2 rising above where MLO measurements were at the beginning of MLO measurements.

And the assumption of the air bubbles being a “closed system” is not a good one. I’ve read that melt water brine exists, thanks to pressure of the weight of the ice, in glacial ice at temperatures as low as 70 below zero. Water that cold would readily absorb CO2 in the air bubbles any time it came into contact with them, which means many, most, or even all of the absolute amounts recorded may be understated.

I also seem to recall reading that high values recorded in the air bubble measurements were simply discarded as “outliers.” Nice when “inconvenient” data can simply be excluded.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 4:06 pm

With ice records, we actually have samples of the air.

Crap.

co2stomatavicecore
Nick Stokes
Reply to  Mike
November 2, 2024 5:50 pm

The graph on the right is of air samples. The graph on the left is of a stomata proxy. Which looks better?

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 7:32 pm

The graph on the right is of air samples.

No it isn’t. It is of air in old, crushed ice which has probably been subject to diffusion over the millennia. It is too flat to be a real representation.
Do you think plants change their stomata count because they feel like it?

Richard Greene
Reply to  ThinkingScientist
November 2, 2024 11:32 am

“Expecting us to believe the graph was almost completely flat from 1000 to 1850?” NonThinking Scientist

There is no evidence the global average temperature varied by more than +/- 0.5 degrees C. in the past 5000 years, until about 2000.

Based on the ice core 100,000 year cycles, +/- 0.5 degrees C. would cause atmospheric CO2 to vary by only +/- 10 ppm, which would register as a flat line in ice core data.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 4:08 pm

There is no evidence the global average temperature varied by more than +/- 0.5 degrees C. in the past 5000 years, until about 2000.

There is no evidence of any intelligence whatsoever to be found in this comment.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 3:27 am

Stokes the nutter didn’t read the article.

There have been 2 warm periods in the last 2K years.
The Roman period was considerably warmer than today growing wine grapes nr Scotland.
The Vikings lived 1K years ago in a Greenland which was green.

Go see how it is today.
’nuff said.

Co2 levels FOLLOW warmer temperatures as the article clearer reads.
CO2 does not CAUSE global temperature rise it follows it.

The graph above is just yet another Michael Mann crapper hockey stick, with zilch evidence to back up the BS.

Richard Greene
Reply to  pigs_in_space
November 2, 2024 6:39 am

No period was warmer than 2023 and 2024 in the past 5000 years

5000 to 9000 years ago was at least 1 degree C. warmer than today, with a larger peak about 8000 years ago.

We should be celebrating the warmer climate i 2023 and 2024.

Scissor
Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 7:26 am

If they had lived so long, the Minoans, Romans, Vikings, etc., might disagree.

In my experience, in my area, this past year has been average. It’s not global, and 2012 was warmer, which I experienced, and 1954 was warmer than that, records indicate.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 8:09 am

“No period was warmer than 2023 and 2024 in the past 5000 years”

That’s not true. At least in the Unied States. It was just as warm in the 1930’s in the U.S., as it was in 2023 and 2024.

The U.S. has no CO2-Climate Crisis.

Just because you don’t shovel as much snow off your driveway as you did in the recent past doesn’t mean something unusual is going on and there is no obvious connection to CO2.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Tom Abbott
November 2, 2024 12:05 pm

The US 48 states is 1.5% of the global land surface

Ho hum

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 3, 2024 1:48 am

The best temperature record in the world.

The temperature profile of the U.S. chart is similar to other regional charts from around the world.

If the temperature profile shows to be the same all around the world, then *that* is the global average.

comment image

The U.S. chart shows the true temperature profile of the Earth. It puts the lie to the bastardized Hockey Stick global temperature chart.

sturmudgeon
Reply to  Tom Abbott
November 2, 2024 1:27 pm

The shovelling is not of snow.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 8:34 am

No period was warmer than 2023 and 2024 in the past 5000 years”
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

just broke my eyes, thanks.

next you’ll tell me Kamala is a sensible individual

Richard Greene
Reply to  Pat from Kerbob
November 2, 2024 12:12 pm

Kamaliar is a socialist dingbat and a nasty woman … but there is zero evidence of a GLOBAL average temperature warmer than 2023 and 2024 in the past 5000 years

Due Diligence
I have already voted for Trump and hope Michigan election fraud does not affect him in 2024 as it did in 2020.

Michigan has 83.5% of adults over age 17 registered to vote while the average state has about 66% (in 2020). We have far too many fake names on our state registered voter rolls.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 3, 2024 2:15 am

“voted for Trump and hope Michigan election fraud does not affect him in 2024 as it did in 2020.”

Just like I said.
You are a nutter.
The same class of nutters that had a riot on capitol hill.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Richard Greene
November 3, 2024 12:13 pm

but there is zero evidence of a GLOBAL average temperature warmer than 2023 and 2024 in the past 5000 years”

I’ll do you one better. There is ZERO evidence that “global average temperature” is meaningful in any way.

Also, proxies are VERY bad in general. We really don’t know if it’s been warmer in any specific areas. You can’t compare proxies to thermometers.

Reply to  Jeff Alberts
November 14, 2024 12:20 pm

But physical evidence shows previous warm periods were clearly warmer than today.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 14, 2024 12:18 pm

Horse manure. There are plenty of fossilized tree stumps from prior, warmer-than-today warm periods that used to grow well beyond where they can grow today, because today it’s too cold.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 12:04 pm

No period was warmer than 2023 and 2024 in the past 5000 years

Total and VERY IGNORANT BS. !

What to expect from a low-level AGW-cultist.

MWP, RWP were both warmer than now.

Holocene optimum was at least 3 degrees warmer in many parts of the world.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 2:17 pm

“No period was warmer than 2023 and 2024 in the past 5000 years“

Besides the absurdity of what’s claimed, how can one compare 2 current years with daily measured temperatures and former decades or centuries with no direct data, high global uncertaincy and poor temporal resolution ?

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 4:11 pm

No period was warmer than 2023 and 2024 in the past 5000 years



laugh
Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 10:37 pm

No data from the past 5000 years could capture the small increase of 2023/2024. If the temperature stays warmer for the next 50 to 100 years you could have a point but based on what has been happening for the past few decades, the temperature average is likely to decrease considerably during the next few years.

You do realize that a number of places around the globe had the lowest temperatures ever recorded during 2023/2024 for those locations during the instrument measurement period?

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 3, 2024 6:39 am

You make very confident statements based on imprecise data. Measurements from more than 75 years ago cannot be assumed to have a precision of 0.5 degrees C, much less be compared directly to measured temperatures for the past decade. No data record is competent to make such claims, and ice core data certainly lacks the resolution for such a purpose, as you indicate.
I do agree about the celebrating part. We just had a very pleasant “record warm” October here along the Wasatch Front. That is much preferred over the “record cold” October we experienced back in 2019 or so.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  pigs_in_space
November 2, 2024 9:21 am

Stokes the nutter didn’t read the article.”

You didn’t read my post, which was much shorter. It said nothing about temperature. It simply reported actual observations of CO2 concentration. It completely refutes these theories that it came from global warming or volcanoes. You have 850 years where the temperature varied, volcanoes varied. Observed CO2 was dead level. Then we started emitting, and CO2 rose by about 40%, the rise proportional to our emissons.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 9:39 am

Observed CO2 was dead level”

So how did temperature vary then? Independently of CO2 & GHGs?

If so, what drove temperature change?

If temperature can vary independently of GHGs then the climate models fail the null hypothesis.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  ThinkingScientist
November 2, 2024 9:55 am

If temperature can vary independently of GHGs then the climate models fail the null hypothesis.”

Well, it can, as climate models show, and no scientists doubt. But CO2, when it varies, greatly affects temperature.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 10:23 am

Since temperatures can vary substantially with no change in CO2, the Null Hypothesis applies. CO2 has no effect.

Climate models demonstrate absolutely nothing.

Reply to  Graemethecat
November 2, 2024 10:50 am

The temperature effect on CO2 levels is very modest: over the 420,000 years of the Vostok ice core with 4 glacial-interglacial intervals, the average CO2/T ratio was 8 ppmv/K for Antarctic temperatures or 16 ppmv/K for global temperatures.
On short term (seasonal – year by year) that gets 3-5 ppmv/K. That is all… Not the 130 ppmv increase in 170 years time…

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Graemethecat
November 2, 2024 11:17 am

Since our health varies substantially without eating arsenic, then the Null Hypothesis applies. Arsenic can have no effect.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 1:01 pm

The following syllogism is logically correct but factually false:

Since arsenic poisoning can occur without eating arsenic, then the Null Hypothes applies. Arsenic has no effect.

If you can’t see the difference between what you wrote and this, I can only conclude you have a problem with elementary logic.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Graemethecat
November 2, 2024 5:59 pm

You said
“Since temperatures can vary substantially with no change in CO2, the Null Hypothesis applies. CO2 has no effect.”
I adopted the same logic to say
“Since our health varies substantially without eating arsenic, then the Null Hypothesis applies. Arsenic can have no effect.”

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 10:52 pm

to say” blah blah

Showing you are complete and utter anti-science moron.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 3, 2024 1:05 am

Thank you for proving my very point.

How many factors influence our health?

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 1:45 pm

OMG, Nick goes with a moronic analogy of illogical BS.

His dementia must be getting worse.

Anthony Banton
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 3, 2024 9:26 am

LOL: Nick
I was just constucting an argument regarding this stupidity when I saw yours … and stopped.
It just beggars belief.

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 4, 2024 5:42 pm

So Banton was thinking the same moronic idiotic analogy that Nick was.

Ok !

Not surprised in the least.

Anthony Banton
Reply to  Graemethecat
November 3, 2024 9:24 am

Why is it impossible for some peeps here to not grasp the simple and obvious principle that a causation does not have to be the only one for a particular outcome.

Do you think that life is as simple as only one thing causes stuff?
I would suggest it is an extreme mind bend in order to maintain a cognitive dissonance.

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 3, 2024 9:40 am

Why do you need multiple causation?

Prove to me that the warming was not caused by invisible pink unicorns.

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 4, 2024 5:42 pm

” extreme mind bend in order to maintain a cognitive dissonance.”

How very introspective of you.

Except you would be better described as having cognitive non-functionality.

I’m sure you could make up several other FAKE reasons if you could put what little mind you have left, to the task.

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 14, 2024 12:27 pm

Waiting for the explanation of CO2’s missing “climate driving power” 450mya when glaciation occurred with 10x today’s level.

Until you can explain that, there’s a container ship sized hole in your “logic.”

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 10:50 pm

“as climate models show,”

LOL.. seriously !!!!.. Climate models are designed by the writers to show what the writers want them to show.

They are NOT SCIENCE, nor are they EVIDENCE of anything.

…..

“But CO2, when it varies, greatly affects temperature.”

Complete and utter scientifically unsupportable BS !!

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 3, 2024 2:19 am

“CO2, when it varies, greatly affects temperature.”

Stokes the nutter again.

No such thing happens….try it in a real greenhouse.
No temperature changes occur if you “STOKE IT UP” to 2000ppm.
What does happen, the tomatoes grow like mad!

CO2 levels VARY FOLLOWING temperature, NOT cause it you muppet!

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 11:38 am

You probably won’t read this, but even if you do you are bound to try to discredit it because it contradicts your blinkered belief system:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237429792_180_Years_of_Atmospheric_Co_2_Gas_Analysis_by_Chemical_Methods

Ron Long
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 3:28 am

Nick, I’m “one of the few that read it through”. Get a life with less delusion.

strativarius
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 3:33 am

comment image

Anthony Banton
Reply to  strativarius
November 2, 2024 6:09 am

Ah we have a favourite graphs posted again.
Ok:

https://climatedeniersfavouritegraphs.wordpress.com/

What is the scale of the Y-axis?
The blue arrows indicate a sort of temperature scale with the arrow lengths as follows …
1°C = 15 pixels
3°C = 71 pixels
Not 45 as expected by 3 × 15 pixels
6°C = 127 pixels
Not 90 as expected by 6 × 15 pixels
10°C = 224 pixels
Not 150 as expected by 10 × 15 pixels

The time divisions on the x-axis, which are based on geological periods, have arbitrary widths unrelated to the shown duration. I’ve annotated the durations in red and you can see that the grid spacings are totally unrelated to the time periods shown:

comment image

Based on the arbitrary x and y-axis divisions we can safely conclude this graph was hand drawn by the author as no known graphing utility would be able to render this graph in such a manner.

It is also worth noting that the paleo CO₂ model has huge uncertainties e.g.: during the Ordovician CO₂ was between 2,400 and 9,000 ppmv making the graphed value of ~7,400 ppmv meaningless without error bars. The time step is also 10,000,000 years meaning the 1,000,000 year glaciation in the late Ordovician impossible to correlate with the CO₂ model. (Making the hand drawn temperature dip on the graph ~10 times too wide).

comment image

This is the graph you need Strati (covers the last ~60My) 
Done in 2021 (https://par.nsf.gov/servlets/purl/10232685)
from obviously better and more proxy data than Scotese had in 2002 ….

https://skehttps://par.nsf.gov/servlets/purl/10232685)

“Temperature (top) and CO2 (bottom) for the last 66 million years, showing preindustrial & 2021 temperature & CO2. Ma = million years ago. Redrawn from Rae et al. 2021, with annotations added: 2021 CO2 per CO2.Earth, preindustrial CO2 per climate.gov, 2021 absolute temperature per NOAA Global Climate Report for June 2021 anomaly above 20th century average of 13.5ºC, preindustrial absolute temperature per Berkeley Earth 2020 anomaly of 1.27 above preindustrial.”

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 2, 2024 9:39 am

But still we are in the same cold period as the carboniferous, coal seams give a good indication of frequent interglacials in the carboniferous.

Anthony Banton
Reply to  strativarius
November 2, 2024 6:14 am

Ah we have a favourite graphs posted again.
Ok:

https://climatedeniersfavouritegraphs.wordpress.com/

What is the scale of the Y-axis?
The blue arrows indicate a sort of temperature scale with the arrow lengths as follows …
1°C = 15 pixels
3°C = 71 pixels
Not 45 as expected by 3 × 15 pixels
6°C = 127 pixels
Not 90 as expected by 6 × 15 pixels
10°C = 224 pixels
Not 150 as expected by 10 × 15 pixels

The time divisions on the x-axis, which are based on geological periods, have arbitrary widths unrelated to the shown duration. I’ve annotated the durations in red and you can see that the grid spacings are totally unrelated to the time periods shown:

comment image

Based on the arbitrary x and y-axis divisions we can safely conclude this graph was hand drawn by the author as no known graphing utility would be able to render this graph in such a manner.

It is also worth noting that the paleo CO₂ model has huge uncertainties e.g.: during the Ordovician CO₂ was between 2,400 and 9,000 ppmv making the graphed value of ~7,400 ppmv meaningless without error bars. The time step is also 10,000,000 years meaning the 1,000,000 year glaciation in the late Ordovician impossible to correlate with the CO₂ model. (Making the hand drawn temperature dip on the graph ~10 times too wide).

comment image

This is the graph you need Strati (covers the last ~60My) 
Done in 2021 (https://par.nsf.gov/servlets/purl/10232685)
from obviously better and more proxy data than Scotese had in 2002 ….

comment image

“Temperature (top) and CO2 (bottom) for the last 66 million years, showing preindustrial & 2021 temperature & CO2. Ma = million years ago. Redrawn from Rae et al. 2021, with annotations added: 2021 CO2 per CO2.Earth, preindustrial CO2 per climate.gov, 2021 absolute temperature per NOAA Global Climate Report for June 2021 anomaly above 20th century average of 13.5ºC, preindustrial absolute temperature per Berkeley Earth 2020 anomaly of 1.27 above preindustrial.”

strativarius
Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 2, 2024 9:16 am

The anomaly is your blind faith.

Anthony Banton
Reply to  strativarius
November 2, 2024 10:59 am

You accuse me of “blind faith”.
When you post up a rubbish and very wrong graph used to bolsters yours.
When the overwhelming weight of evidence and the science of causation back the fact that CO2 does indeed warm the biosphere when injected from outside the carbon cycle.
I have the science, which can never be 101% certain – though you and cohorts on here expect it to be..
It is you that has “blind faith”

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 2, 2024 12:15 pm

Blind ignorance, rather than faith.

You have no scientific empirical evidence that CO2 causes warming.

Vostok core shows CO2 does NOTHING

CO2-does-nothing
Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 2, 2024 4:17 pm

When the overwhelming weight of evidence and the science of causation back the fact that CO2 does indeed warm the biosphere when injected from outside the carbon cycle.

What is the correct ECS figure?

Mr.
Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 2, 2024 9:29 am

and you did post it again
👏

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 2, 2024 12:07 pm

Showing the planet is pretty much at it COLDEST and CO2 at its LOWEST over the history of the planet

Anthony Banton
Reply to  bnice2000
November 3, 2024 9:33 am

Humans did not have an advanced civilisation of approaching 8bn peeps “over the history of the planet”.
Just the last few hundred years – when the major climatic drivers that lie in orbital characteristics (eg ellipticity which acts over 100k years) did not apply.

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 4, 2024 5:50 pm

YAWN.. totally irrelevant. !

Only an anti-science moron thinks human CO2 drives climate in any way whatsoever.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 4:09 am

In a short post which is totally flawed…

… Nick accidentally shows that CO2 has been at a dangerously low level for most of the last 1000 years

That extra CO2 since 1900 has SAVED THE PLANET…. Nick does not like that. !

paulmilenkovic
Reply to  bnice2000
November 2, 2024 5:40 am

A driver behind the idea that temperature drives atmospheric CO2 rather than the other way around comes from sources such as the Wood for Trees Web site, not only showing a strong correlation between year-to-year changes in atmospheric temperature and the varying increase in atmospheric CO2 observed at the Mauna Loa site. It also shows that year-to-year fluctuations in the increase in atmospheric CO2 greatly exceeds any reasonable assumption regarding year-to-year changes in human-caused emissions.

Alright, OK, the Little Ice Age and the Roman and Medieval Climatic Optima are fever dreams of Deniers and goofball fantasies of that Canadian guy, so global temperature, atmospheric CO2 and human-caused CO2 emissions were all flat lines before the 20th century and all of the data “tie up” nicely. Because if the Little Ice and and the Roman and Medieval Climatic Optima are real, you should see big swings in the CO2 lines that are not there, and what you see falsifies the hypothesis that temperature drives CO2 emissions.

OK, how do you square this with the Wood for Trees data showing larger swings in the year-to-year increase in CO2 that correlate nicely with fluctuations in global temperature? Pieter Tans of NOAA is the go-to atmospheric carbon modelling guy, and he addresses this concern rather than flat out ignoring it as much of the rest of non-Deniers do. His claim is that the CO2 fluctuations are driven by temperature-stimulated CO2 emissions from rotting leaf litter in the Amazon and the other remaining tropical rain forests, that the amount of carbon in the rain forest reservoir is small because rain forest soils are shallow on account of the rapid decomposition of material dropped on the forest floor and hence the temperature-driven CO2 fluctuations are local in time, on a year-to-year but not a decadal time scale let alone the century-long CO2 trend attributed to human-caused emissions.

Oh-kay, but good luck showing the statistical data establishes this because the correlations between CO2 and temperature extend to longer time periods and it is indeed coincidence that the human-caused emissions “fill in” the time scale where the shallow leaf-litter reservoir of the tropical forests leave off?

On the other hand, were the Little Ice Age and the Medieval and Roman periods “real” and were the temperature to drive CO2 as suggested by the tracking of CO2 and temperature over the ebb and flow of the Ice Ages, the ice cores should how strong CO2 variations over the last two millenia and they don’t.

But how do we know that the ice core data have that fine-grained a temporal resolution. Well, CO2 doesn’t diffuse through the ice once the ice is buried unless you believe that crank who says that it indeed does diffuse?

Well, there is a study published in Nature measuring temperature-stimulated CO2 emission from temperate-region soils, the conclusion being that temperature-stimulated emission from this and other large reservoirs of carbon put us in “tipping-point” peril rather than if these mechanisms are ongoing, they must already be a substantial contribution to the increase in CO2, where both temperature and CO2 have been increasing before hydrocarbon-fuel driven emissions had been put in “high gear” in the late 20th and early 21st centuries?

My money is that the Little Ice Age and the Medieval and Roman warm periods were real, the ability of ice cores to show short-term CO2 changes is overstated, and PieterTans’ explanation is wishful thinking.

Laws of Nature
Reply to  paulmilenkovic
November 2, 2024 7:18 am

Are you denying that the term “climate denier” is an intentional insult and stems from the historical fact that climate alarmists were trying to link climate skeptics to holocaust denial? Quite horrible actually.

paulmilenkovic
Reply to  Laws of Nature
November 2, 2024 4:37 pm

I am using the term ironically–if you point to the Little Ice Age and the Climatic Optima as being at variance with the “Hockey Stick”, you get called that.

I apologize that you find mention of this word in this context offensive.

Scissor
Reply to  paulmilenkovic
November 2, 2024 7:30 am

It’s funny how Pieter Tans ignores the oceans, except when he goes on vacation.

Reply to  paulmilenkovic
November 2, 2024 4:23 pm

My money is that the Little Ice Age and the Medieval and Roman warm periods were real, the ability of ice cores to show short-term CO2 changes is overstated, and PieterTans’ explanation is wishful thinking.

co2stomatavicecore
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 4:25 am

Only a dedicated cultist will NEVER admit that skeptics of his cult might have a valid point. I’ve seen this bullheadedness with religious fundamentalists. Back in the ’70s I enjoyed debating with some. They never once gave an inch- that must their motto.

Editor
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 5:30 am

It’s interesting that temperatures have fluctuated quite significantly, as shown by eg. GISP2 data, while CO2 has not, as shown by eg. Nick Stokes here. Now I do think that man-made CO2 has caused much but not all of the recent increase in atmospheric CO2 in spite of exceeding it by a factor of about 2, as I argued with Ferdinand Engelbeen on I think this forum a few years ago. In other words, I argued that atmospheric CO2 was going to increase a bit anyway but man-made CO2 made it increase a lot further. I worked out that the observed atmospheric CO2 behaviour was consistent with an atmospheric excess CO2 half-life of (from memory) about 12 years, where excess means greater CO2 partial pressure in the atmosphere than in the ocean. But the data indicates that the atmospheric CO2 increase has had little effect on temperatures.

My thinking that man-made CO2 has increased atmospheric CO2 is my only disagreement with this article, and my only agreement with Nick Stokes’ comment on this thread.

Reply to  Mike Jonas
November 2, 2024 9:26 am

Half life is 38 years, as suggested by Peter Dietze, and confirmed by Roy Spencer, Ferdinand Engelbeen and Cees Le Pair

Editor
Reply to  Hans Erren
November 2, 2024 3:48 pm

I doubt they are correct because that number is so different to my calcs, but I’ll try to find their work and check it out. If you have a link that would help.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Mike Jonas
November 2, 2024 9:59 am

my only agreement with Nick Stokes’ comment on this thread”

Well, that makes it 100% 🙂
The headline of the article declares that it explains:
Why Today’s Increase in Atmospheric CO2 Is the Result of Global Warming, Not the Cause
It is the key point.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 12:19 pm

And the headline is totally correct.

You have present absolutely NOTHING to counter it

Mid 2024 More Proof Temp Changes Drive CO2 Changes | Science Matters

Editor
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 3:46 pm

Ummmm. The headline is not the whole article, and it is not your comment either. There’s a certain amount of mileage for you in my comment, and no more.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 5:32 am

… plotted with our cumulative emissions

A couple of weeks ago I attached the graph below to a comment under another WUWT article.

See that comment for the “derivation” from IPCC definitions and the HadCRUT5 dataset.

comment image

.

The IPCC’s “carbon budget” argument is made in the WG-I assessment report contribution to the AR6 document cycle, specifically in section 5.5, “Remaining Carbon Budgets”, on pages 742 to 755.

Figure 5.31, from page 750, should appear “automagically” at this point …

comment image

In the “lies, damned lies and statistics” category the following graph shows the visual effects of the IPCC shifting from using “X-axis = Year” to “X-axis = Cumulative CO2 emissions” (from your “when we started emitting” year, 1850AD).

TCRE_8bis
David Wojick
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 5:53 am

A CO2 hockey stick made by combining a recent instrumental record with a questionable proxy record.

David Wojick
Reply to  David Wojick
November 2, 2024 5:54 am

The stomata evidence disagrees with the ice core evidence.

Reply to  David Wojick
November 2, 2024 7:21 am

Stomata evidence disagrees with Mauna Loa

Reply to  Hans Erren
November 14, 2024 1:13 pm

Different resolution. Not exactly comparable on a direct bssis.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  David Wojick
November 2, 2024 9:28 am

a questionable proxy record”

It isn’t a proxy record. It is a record of actually measured ppm of CO2 in air samples. And it agrees very well with the Mauna Loa record where they overlap.

Curious George
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 9:47 am

Overlap? Are there any ice core measurements for 1960+?

Reply to  Curious George
November 2, 2024 10:58 am

Yes, there is an overlap of some 20 years (1958-1978) between the ice core levels at Law Dome and direct measurements at the South Pole,
Made by Etheridge etal (1996):

law_dome_sp_co2
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 10:54 pm

It is a very questionable record calculated from tree ring measurements, with no considerations of CO2 concentrations.

Scissor
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 6:09 am

Perhaps we don’t understand, or at least don’t openly acknowledge, the errors and complexities associated with preserving CO2 in bubbles.

First, they’re air bubbles, not CO2 bubbles. To my knowledge, no one have ever tried to replicate this process, or at least reported results on it.

Reply to  Scissor
November 2, 2024 11:03 am

The fact that several ice cores with extreme differences in temperature and snow accumulation (thus resolution) show the same CO2 levels within a few ppmv of each other is a already a good indication that the ice cores represent the real ancient atmosphere.
Plus a 20 year overlap between the ice core CO2 and direct measurements at the South Pole, within 1.2 ppmv of each other.

Scissor
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
November 2, 2024 11:42 am

Clathrate formation under the same temperatures and pressures is remarkably precise, and compression effects compound with accumulation.

One should use caution in extrapolation of a comparison of some 70 years of recent data to hundreds and thousands of years and beyond.

CO2 measurement from one day to the next by a single measurement technique, e.g., FTIR or GC, can vary by 5 ppm or so. I would be suspicious of disparate techniques agreeing so closely as 1.2 ppm.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 6:36 am

Presenting data to the CO2 Does Nothing Nutters is no more likely to have any effect than trying to teach a dog geometry.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 12:22 pm

Expecting dickie-boi to present any empirical scientific evidence to support his blind, ignorant CO2 warming cultism is like expecting an eel not to slither around in stagnant water.

Still waiting !!

Editor
Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 3:51 pm

I’m glad you picked a dog for your example. Dragon flies have demonstrated some understanding of geometry.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 10:55 pm

Presenting data “

Odd.. I don’t see any ? where is it ??

You have failed totally every other time… Presenting nothing but scientifically empty blather.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 8:29 am

Nick,

Thank you for your insightful graph, which clearly shows CO2 cannot be the culprit for the current warming – otherwise the graph would clearly show an increase in CO2 for the MWP and a decrease in CO2 for the LIA.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Redge
November 2, 2024 9:31 am

That logic is backward. CO2 did not vary so yes, it can’t be the cause of MWP and LIA. But now CO2 has massively varied. Scientists from Arrhenius have shown that would cause warming, and yes, we have warming.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 9:49 am

So what was the cause of the MWP and the LIA?

Anthony Banton
Reply to  Redge
November 2, 2024 11:04 am

The MWP was regional in its entirety annd was likely due to an over vigourous +ve NAO and the LIA was caused by several volcanic eruptions during the period that injected aerosols into the atmosphere, with a feedback affecting the climate system. There were various cold episodes around the world during that time but were not contiguous to the globe.

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 2, 2024 11:46 am

The current warming is regional, we just kid ourselves that there is something like a global average temperature

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 2, 2024 12:30 pm

More BS from Banton.

Evidence of the MW exists from all around the globe.

Reply to  bnice2000
November 2, 2024 1:10 pm

Banton should learn to use the search function on WUWT before posting such falsehoods. Just putting “Medieval Warm Period Global” into it returns several articles demonstrating the worldwide nature of the MWP.

Anthony Banton
Reply to  Graemethecat
November 3, 2024 10:09 am

I know you think otherwise but sensible climate scince is not the province of WUWT.
It deals with anything that may bring it into doubt.
Such we have the situation where denizens are locked in an echo-chamber where denial is the only game in town and the existence of AGW rquires 101% certainty – which they are the only judges of and therefore will never be achieved.
Even when sending a man to execution a court uses the concept of “beyond reasonable doubt”.

You need to go to the sources …. not a biased filter such as here.
Otherwise your conclusion here will be the choices of …

Scientists are incompetent.
Scientists are perpetrating a fraud.

The answer is of course… They know more than you.

That that doesn’t scan on here is a mystery of human psychology.

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 4, 2024 6:04 pm

Banton is most certainly TOTALLY INCOMPETENT !

And needs a psychiatrist.. has zero clue of human psychology.

Who pays YOU, Banton !!!

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 4, 2024 6:05 pm

where denial 

Come on, low-life putz..

Tell us what we “deny” that you can provide irrefutable scientific evidence for.

Anthony Banton
Reply to  bnice2000
November 3, 2024 9:46 am

comment image

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 3, 2024 4:36 pm

Blimey, those Medieval satellites were amazing, weren’t they?

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 4, 2024 5:53 pm

Invented by who ? One of your fellow grubby agenda scammers ??

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 2, 2024 7:20 pm

There is nothing continuous today thus your claim isn’t working.

MWP was worldwide but not all at the same time, here once again the long list of published papers showing that MWP was found in every continent North and South Hemispheres.

Medieval Warm Period Project

LINK

Reply to  Sunsettommy
November 3, 2024 1:12 am

The MWP started and ended at different times in different places, but between about 1000 and 1200 warming was worldwide.

Anthony Banton
Reply to  Sunsettommy
November 3, 2024 10:17 am

MWP was worldwide but not all at the same time”

Then there was not a single driver.
Just a series of interrelated regional climate switches where heat is moved about differently.
Which must mean atmosphere-ocean coupling – such as takes place in ENSO.
The current global warming is happening, well globally, now, with the usual regional differences in extent one must expect with average planetary circulation.

Oh, and of course you are sure proxies from that time are reliable??
Silly question – of course as it supports doubt.
But god forbid proxies are relaible when showing the opposite, which of course they do.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 3, 2024 5:46 pm

Just a series of interrelated regional climate switches where heat is moved about differently.”

Hmm, exactly like we see right now.

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 4, 2024 5:54 pm

Bullshit !

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 2, 2024 7:45 pm

The MWP was regional in its entirety

No.

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 2, 2024 10:57 pm

In spite of many studies that say otherwise.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 10:27 am

Stokes clearly doesn’t understand the Null Hypothesis.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Graemethecat
November 2, 2024 11:19 am

OK, tell us what it is.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 1:20 pm

From Wikipedia:

In scientific research, the null hypothesis (often denoted H0)[1] is the claim that the effect being studied does not exist.[note 1] The null hypothesis can also be described as the hypothesis in which no relationship exists between two sets of data or variables being analyzed. If the null hypothesis is true, any experimentally observed effect is due to chance alone, hence the term “null”. In contrast with the null hypothesis, an alternative hypothesis is developed, which claims that a relationship does exist between two variables.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 1:41 pm

That there is no effect.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 12:29 pm

Scientists from Arrhenius have shown.. blah.. blah “

Still stuck with that anti-science LIE.

Arrhenius showed absolutely about the action of CO2 in the atmosphere..

It was a simplistic conjecture based on simplistic and erroneous model based on very little understanding of the atmosphere.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 14, 2024 1:21 pm

NO, Arrhenius showed that CO2 COULD cause warming, if IT was changed WHILE HOLDING EVERYTHING ELSE EQUAL.

Here in reality, “ALL OTHER THINGS” have never been, are not, and will never be “held equal.”

The feedbacks are negative and you can’t distinguish the end result from zero.

Which is why those ice cores show REPEATED episodes of REVERSE CORRELATION. Which if you’re capable of critical thinking tells you that CO2 doesn’t “drive” jack shit.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 8:32 am

Hmmm, and yet temps have been all over the map in that 1000 years
hmmm

Mr.
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 9:23 am

Interesting Nick.

Using your approach that correlation = causation, you’d also have to agree with recent observations that the unprecedented 24% rise in cancers in young people since 2021 MUST be attributable to ubiquitous mRNA “vaccines” for COVID-19.
?

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Mr.
November 2, 2024 11:20 am

There is no correlation. You can’t have that without variation.

Mr.
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 11:57 am

Variation in that cancers weren’t so prevalent in that age cohort until the advent of mass jabs of mRNA, and there are now numerous clinical reports about mRNA derailing immune systems?

These tests and observations are present-day, not proxies, and have more robust probity that the CO2 > temps correlation.

sturmudgeon
Reply to  Mr.
November 2, 2024 1:45 pm

In addition, these harms are not based on “models”.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 12:32 pm

There is a very good correlation between the of rate of CO2 increase and ocean atmospheric temperature.. The rate of CO2 growth FOLLOWS.

UAH-Ocean-v-del-paCO2
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 3:58 pm

It was warmer during the MWP and the RWP. This disproves the idea that co2 must be the cause of the current warm period. There is no counter argument.



mendenhall-alaska-ancient-trees
Nick Stokes
Reply to  Mike
November 2, 2024 6:07 pm

There is no argument at all.
A died of a heart attack. B died of a stroke. This disproves the idea that arsenic is harmful.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 7:57 pm

Time and again you try to prop up the idea that human co2 is causing warming and you argue against the opposition to that hypothesis in any way you can. However, as I have shown with the picture above, warming comes about regardless of co2 concentration. Therefore, the first graph you posted is meaningless whether it is correct or not.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 2, 2024 10:58 pm

The moronic arsenic argument again

Is that what they are feeding you Nick ??

Does it cause dementia in small doses.. causes alterations in cellular signaling.

Ie brain damage !!

Anthony Banton
Reply to  bnice2000
November 3, 2024 10:20 am

The moronic arsenic argument again”

Which came after the moronic …

“It was warmer during the MWP and the RWP. This disproves the idea that co2 must be the cause of the current warm period. “

That that isn’t obvous is one of the mysteries of human psychology.
And why this place is so fascinating.

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 3, 2024 2:34 pm

Another MORON who misses the point.
No one said it disproves anything. What it DOES prove is that until the MWP, the RWP and others are explained (they can’t be) the human co2- caused warming argument is meaningless speculation.
IDIOT!

Reply to  Anthony Banton
November 4, 2024 5:56 pm

Which came after the moronic “

A similar comment from Banton ! extra-moronic. !

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 3, 2024 1:22 am

Stokes shows once again he does not understand elementary logic.

Death from a heart attack and death from a stroke are TWO DIFFERENT PHENOMENA, and have NOTHING to do with arsenic poisoning.
,

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Graemethecat
November 3, 2024 1:48 am

Exactly. The MWP and RWP are two diferent phenomena, and have nothing to do with CO2. So their existence has no bearing on whether the current warming is caused by the current large increase in CO2.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 3, 2024 4:31 am

In what way were these warm periods different from one another? They weren’t, of course.

You make assertions without evidence, and advance unfalsifiable hypotheses.

It’s abundantly clear now that you are dishonest and not of good faith. You don’t understand basic logic, let alone scientific arguments. You have nothing worthwhile to contribute.

Reply to  Graemethecat
November 3, 2024 2:37 pm

100%

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 3, 2024 2:36 pm

So their existence has no bearing on whether the current warming is caused by the current large increase in CO2.

This lack of understanding would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 4, 2024 5:57 pm

on whether the current warming is caused by the current large increase in CO2.”

Which there is absolutely ZERO evidence for.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Nick Stokes
November 4, 2024 8:07 am

1820 atmospheric CO2 was measured by multiple scientists at 420 to 470 ppm. Where is that on your hockey stick.
WWII had a large amount of CO2 emitted. There is not even a bump on that hockey stick.

November 2, 2024 3:21 am

What % of geologists think we’re having a climate emergency?

strativarius
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
November 2, 2024 4:00 am

-1

Duane
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
November 2, 2024 4:38 am

So-called “climate scientists” remind me of the ancient Asian parable of the blind men examining an elephant trying to describe what they “see” using only their hands. Each one concludes incorrectly that the elephant is something entirely different than what it is because each one only touches one part of the animal: the trunk, a leg, a tusk, or the tail. To understand what an elephant is requires that the entire elephant be examined, even if only through limited sensory means. And it requires humility to recognize that no single person’s perspective is fully truthful – that it takes multiple perspectives to arrive at the truth … and sharing info and respecting the understanding of others.

In the case of understanding climatic performance, the “weather guys” are not the only competent experts – it requires expertise in geology, geochemistry, physics, astrophyics, biology, microbiology, thermodynamics, vulcanology, oceanography, mathematics, statistics, remote sensing technology, rocketry and space vehicle engineering, paleontology, archaeology, anthropology, and just about every other scientific and engineering discipline there is or may be in the future.

Reply to  Duane
November 2, 2024 10:33 am

I liked “Lord of the Rings”. But it was fantasy. The guy who forged the “One Ring to Rule Them All” was the big bad guy.

Back in the real world we are living the fantasy that “One Tree Ring Rules All Science”.

Ron Long
November 2, 2024 3:26 am

What a treat to read this essay by Professor David Shelley, and I am certain his many students were especially prepared to be Scientists first and Geologists a close second. I am especially happy to see the role of Plate Tectonics included in a discussion of Climate Change, as this is a major influence in ocean currents, and even small changes in their pattern can have major climate consequences.

Reply to  Ron Long
November 2, 2024 4:06 am

You’re right Plate Tectonics was mentioned. Thanks for the reminder.

Reply to  Ron Long
November 2, 2024 11:12 am

Dr. Shelly nails it on every front. It’s cold now, warmer would be better, CO2 won’t do the job, mankind has no influence on climate, it’s the sun stupid, and the oceans, and continental drift, warmista “science” is pathetic and political, the UN is an existential threat to civilization, cows are nice, etc etc. I give Shelly five stars, the gold medal, and a big thank you.

sturmudgeon
Reply to  Ron Long
November 2, 2024 1:49 pm

I read the whole article, and the comments, and received (with thanks), further education. Thanks, WUWT.

strativarius
November 2, 2024 3:59 am

Compare the above with this garbage:

The Spanish flood:
the events of the past week are part of a pattern. While the destruction is unprecedented, the analysis from climate scientists is familiar. Peer-reviewed attribution studies – which use computer models to ascertain the impact of global heating on specific events – take time to produce. 
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/01/the-guardian-view-on-climate-linked-disasters-spains-tragedy-will-not-be-the-last

Voodoo over science

Reply to  strativarius
November 2, 2024 8:21 am

“Peer-reviewed attribution studies ”

So you have one weather guesser reviewing another person’s weather guesses.

What’s that old saying?: One guess is as good as another.

Phil Rae
November 2, 2024 4:07 am

What a delight to read! A bit like reading the whole of Ian Plimer’s “Heaven and Earth” but condensed expertly into a long, but easily readable, article. Top marks!!!

strativarius
November 2, 2024 4:12 am

O/T Kemi Badenoch is the new Tory leader

Rod Evans
Reply to  strativarius
November 2, 2024 6:27 am

Whoever is appointed to rearranging the deck chairs will have zero impact on anything helpful. The damage is too great and too many departments are already flooded with overwhelming climate driven nonsense.
£Billions have been handed to Ed Miliband to squander on Green Hydrogen and on Carbon Capture and Storage. What more needs to be said?

Editor
Reply to  Rod Evans
November 2, 2024 3:57 pm

Judge each on their merits. Kemi Badenoch hasn’t failed until she fails. I wish her every success – goodness knows, Britain needs that.

Reply to  strativarius
November 2, 2024 8:40 am

I quite like Badenoch

Interestingly, the Lib Dems leader points out she’s the first black female leader of the conservative party. Is it racism and misogyny of Ed Davey to mention race and gender? Is it relevant?

strativarius
Reply to  Redge
November 2, 2024 9:19 am

Ed Davey owes the post office people bigtime

Reply to  strativarius
November 2, 2024 9:47 am

Agreed

Editor
Reply to  Redge
November 2, 2024 4:01 pm

Kemi Badenoch has a reputation for pragmatism and competence. Funnily enough, none of the reports about her that I have read say that she is black or female.

Duane
November 2, 2024 4:14 am

Good summary of climate variation and why it constantly changes.

You know you’re being punked by ideologues masquerading as scientists when they tell us the universe is a very simple machine with only one control knob – atmospheric concentrations of CO2, and that mankind has full and sole control of that knob, and that we already know all that is knowable on the subject.

What actual scientist thinks that way? If that is reality, then we don’t need any more damn scientists, because there is nothing left to learn.

I’ve been watching this season’s string of episodes of PBS’s “Nova” series, which look at all of the new just-acquired data obtained from NASA space exploration vehicles in the solar system. I had thought I understood quite a bit of how the solar system works, at least as much as a typical non-astrophysicist layman would. But is absolutely shocking what scientists have learned in just the last five years that was unimaginable before. Shocking not just to me, but shocking to the astrophysicists interviewed on the show.

As for the so-called climate scientists’ claim that the atmosphere controls the temperature of the oceans, that is a matter of head-shaking ignorance of basic physics and thermodynamics on display. Have they no shame at their profound ignorance? Apparently not.

Keitho
Editor
November 2, 2024 4:27 am

That was a great read. Geologists are always sensible types. Thanks David Shelley.

altipueri
Reply to  Keitho
November 2, 2024 5:34 am

I worked with geologists in Australia and none of them believe the carbon dioxide scare.
“Look at the data, look at the data. There is no climate emergency. ” is the common refrain.

Simon Derricutt
November 2, 2024 4:34 am

This covers the important bits very nicely. David Shelley probably has a better pass-rate among his students than most.

Yep, it’s somewhat hard to argue that the cooler atmosphere is going to heat the warmer ocean, since that goes against basic thermodynamics. It needs to be pointed out whenever that is claimed. Also pretty hard to claim “hidden heat” stored in the ocean, when we do have the Argo measurements to tell us what heat is actually stored. OK, there is a standard problem here of relatively few measurement points and thus a large distance over which you have guess (OK, call it homogenising if you wish).

The raindrops will absorb CO2 from the air depending on their temperature as they drop, and because they will also start to evaporate as they fall they will likely be generally cooler than the air temperature. Thus they’ll actually absorb a bit more, and as they warm up at ground level (or sea level) they’ll outgas a bit.

The around 50:1 ratio of CO2 in the ocean to CO2 in the atmosphere (and Henry’s law) is a very strong equilibrium to try to push by changing the amount of CO2 emitted into the atmosphere. There’s also corroboration of the speed of dissolution of CO2 into the ocean from the atom-bomb tests around 1965 which raised the atmospheric C14. The disappearance of that excess tells us that the whole ocean is involved rather than just the surface layer.

Still, the net I’d take away from the article is Don’t Panic. Given the rate at which science and technology are advancing, we’ll almost certainly have good solutions by the time we need them, and there’s no massive climate dangers in store for our children and their children. Yep, we do need to sort out the availability of energy and the cost of it, and the fossil fuels by their nature are limited so will cost us more to obtain as what remains gets more difficult to mine. However, we do already know how to get fairly cheap energy, though we really need to get cheaper than nuclear and something that’s safer when used by people who are non-technical. I think we’ll manage that within a few decades.

Another take-away from the article is that so far human achievements have had very little effect on those changes in climate. The amount of energy involved dwarfs what we can currently control. Sure, we can currently affect local climates by changing crops or irrigation over a large-enough area, but we can’t change the natural progression yet. I’d be worried if we could, since *someone* would be bound to push the button that is marked “under no circumstances push this button”.

Reply to  Simon Derricutt
November 2, 2024 6:57 am

Panic is essential for the success of doom purveyors
Real science merely denies what they are purveying
The reason the purveyors have their own proprietary “science that is settled”
Heretics who question it, will be hounded, pestered, ground to dust, a la Assange, Snowdon.

Editor
Reply to  Simon Derricutt
November 2, 2024 4:05 pm

The claim that the heat is stored in the ocean destroys climate alarmism, because the number of degrees by which the ocean is thus warmed is tiny and cannot then warm the atmosphere by any more than that tiny number of degrees.

November 2, 2024 4:44 am

From section 8:
“I have argued that our emissions are not at all responsible for the slight warming we are experiencing. We can emit as much CO2 as we like.”

Correct. I have argued the same point from current observation (GOES Band 16) and physics-based computation (ERA5). Incremental CO2 in the circulating atmosphere is fundamentally not capable of forcing absorbed energy to accumulate in the land + ocean + atmosphere system as sensible heat – most certainly not to any harmful effect.

More here. These very short time-lapse videos each include a description text to get the full explanation. No more than a few minutes each.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI8vhRIT-3uaLhuaIZq2FuQ

November 2, 2024 5:18 am

non sequitur. The current rise of CO2 is caused by the burning of fossil fuels. (The coffee filter effect, currently there is more poored into than is flowing out)
But there is not a climate crisis.

Laws of Nature
Reply to  Hans Erren
November 2, 2024 7:30 am

Strong new hypotheses need even stronger evidence!

It sounds like changes in the past temperature and atmospheric CO2-levels were natural and over the last 500million years wider then in the last 150 years, but now it is all different..

A few comments up Mike Jonas makes the argument that the recent rise in atmospheric CO2 could be half natural and half anthropogenic, maybe the luke warmers win again and the truth lies in the middle (and is NOT particularly alarming)…

Reply to  Laws of Nature
November 2, 2024 9:12 am

It is not a new hypothesis at all, it is just a straightforward mass balance, see eg Roy Spencer
https://www.drroyspencer.com/2024/04/net-zero-co2-emissions-a-damaging-and-totally-unnecessary-goal/

Laws of Nature
Reply to  Hans Erren
November 2, 2024 2:06 pm

New or not new, it still offers an alternative to your writing!
“”The current rise of CO2 is caused by the burning of fossil fuels””
Making statements of certainty not supported by the data is a scientific fallacy!

Reply to  Laws of Nature
November 2, 2024 2:14 pm

I often question such assumptions. Prairie fires in the Great Plains added *lots* of CO2 to the atmosphere for thousands of years. Where is that accounted for in “climate science”. The same thing applies to the South America pampas and African veldts. Where is the CO2 contributions from these in climate science? All three have seen their contributions go down as human’s have grown into these areas and worked to limit widespread fires. There is just so much that is not known about the details of the earth’s biosphere in the far past – and even for the recent past. Far too many unsupported assumptions are made in order to either simplify analysis or to meet pre-conceived biases.

Laws of Nature
Reply to  Tim Gorman
November 2, 2024 6:24 pm

You correct, however, my point is about the false certainty of such statements (in either direction to be honest), like I said – a scientific fallacy!

Reply to  Laws of Nature
November 3, 2024 6:40 am

Sure

sturmudgeon
Reply to  Laws of Nature
November 2, 2024 1:58 pm

The word “then” is far different THAN the word “than”… lol

Reply to  Hans Erren
November 2, 2024 12:36 pm

Mid 2024 More Proof Temp Changes Drive CO2 Changes | Science Matters

Also the rate of CO2 growth FOLLOWS the ocean temperature showing that oceans, not man, are regulating the growth of CO2.

UAH-Ocean-v-del-paCO2
Reply to  bnice2000
November 3, 2024 6:44 am

Ah the famous co2 thermometer (google Jarl Ahlbeck) that works on the derivative, now take the integral, and see you are missing a linear term, the growth of emissions.

Reply to  Hans Erren
November 4, 2024 6:00 pm

“growth of emissions.”

WRONG.. you see the growth in atmospheric CO2… not emissions.

Emissions are very small compared to natural CO2 flux.

Doesn’t even show up, does it. !

Reply to  bnice2000
November 5, 2024 5:16 am

In two centuries from almost nothing to 36 Gt CO2 per year, where does it go? INTO the oceans, not out of it.

JBP
November 2, 2024 6:22 am

The premise of this article cannot be true: otherwise why would have all of the leading governments spent trillions of $ fighting CO2?

Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 6:27 am

WUWT needs a weekly Dumb Thread ro discuss incompetent authors such as the author of this CO2 Does Nothing claptrap

The longwinded author is clearly a climate science denier.

He thinks wild guesses of ancient climate history including ZERO MANMADE CO2 EMISSIONS are data to explain the effects of manmade CO2 emissions. Only a fool would think that.

Henry’s Law in the absence of any manmade CO2 emissions could only explain 20 ppm of the 140 ppm increase of atmospheric CO2 since 1850. With manmade CO2 emissions, oceans have been a net CO2 absorber since 1850.

The author probably did not mention that nature has been a CO absorber for billions of years and he falsely believes the +50% rise of CO2 since 1850 was natural.

The WUWT editor seems to feel a once a week CO2 Does Nothing article is needed to keep the science denying readers, such as BeNasty, happy.

But these rare junk science articles at WUWT are what allows Wikipedia and other leftists to say”

” Watts Up With That? (WUWT) is a blog promoting climate change denial that was created by Anthony Watts in 2006.”

You can’t refute the false claim that CO2 is dangerous with the equally false claim that CO2 does nothing.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 7:30 am

Stop whining.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 9:50 am

Fair point, it is amazing how few people can do simple mass balance sums.

Reply to  Hans Erren
November 2, 2024 12:48 pm

Ins: 4% human, 96% natural
Outs: 0% human, 98% natural.
Atmospheric storage difference: +2%
(so that: Ins = Outs + Atmospheric storage difference)

Balance = Atmospheric storage difference: 2%, of which,
Humans: 2% X 4% = 0.08%
Nature: 2% X 96 % = 1.92%

Ratio Natural:Human =1.92% : 0.08% = 24 : 1

Reply to  bnice2000
November 3, 2024 6:48 am

Turnover is not equal to profit, my guinea pigs emit masses of co2 but still are a net co2 sink on an annual basis.

Duane
Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 9:56 am

If you had something worthy of writing you wouldn’t be name calling and insulting those with whom you disagree.

A non-ignoramus would use actual data-based argument instead of ad hominem. You discredit your own argument.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Duane
November 2, 2024 12:25 pm

To complain about my comment that includes BOTH science and insults, you have responded with a comment that includes NO SCIENCE and 100% INSULTS.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 11:00 pm

You have yet to produce one single bit of science to back up your brain-washed conjecture of CO2 warming

You have ZERO science.. only your continued mindless blather.

Reply to  Richard Greene
November 2, 2024 12:46 pm

Another PATHETIC and VERY IGNORANT RANT from RG, when he knows he cannot back up a single word he says with any actual scientific evidence.

Human released CO2 are a tiny part of the total CO2 flux, around 4%, very little stays in the atmosphere as the carbon cycle expands due to natural solar warming.

The RG bot still hasn’t provided any empirical scientific evidence of warming by atmospheric CO2

It still can’t show us any CO2 caused warming in the UAH atmospheric data.

It has never present any scientific evidence to counter these posts..

… but they do seem to set off a Tourette-type mindless and self-opinionated egotistical spew of empty bluster.

These petty and childish rants have ZERO relevance to scientific argument.

Stephen Wilde
November 2, 2024 6:28 am

I’ve been saying for some time that the simplest conclusion is that the ice cores fail to record large natural variations in atmospheric CO2.
The air/ ocean interaction varies far more than we ever expected and the ice cores do not capture it.

Reply to  Stephen Wilde
November 2, 2024 7:22 am

In the Arctic and Antarctic, the change from firn to ice can take decades, and it makes sense that atmospheric spikes would be diluted over at least that time period.

D Sandberg
Reply to  DMacKenzie
November 2, 2024 9:20 am

Excellent comment, hadn’t thought of that.

Editor
Reply to  DMacKenzie
November 2, 2024 4:12 pm

My understanding is that after the firn there are air bubbles for a while, but eventually there are no bubbles because the air is all absorbed into the ice. If this is correct then to my mind it renders incorrect the argument that those air molecules do not move within the ice – they have to have moved within the ice in order for the bubble to be absorbed.

D Sandberg
Reply to  Stephen Wilde
November 2, 2024 9:15 am

As commented above, those CO2 ice core bubbles are actually air bubbles. We are expecting far too much from our technology to accurately capture a few 100 PPM swings in those air bubbles extracted from considerable depth. CO2 did not flatline at 280 PPM for thousands of years. Suggesting that is ridiculous (Regardless of any “97% consensus”).

Reply to  D Sandberg
November 2, 2024 11:12 am

Depends of the resolution: as the bubbles don’t close at exactly the same time, they show a mix of several (8) years to several centuries (6), depending of the local snow accumulation.
Despite that, the current 130 ppmv increase since 1850 would be measurable in all ice cores over the past 800,000 years, be it with a smaller amplitude. But still measurable as an unnormal peak over the about 8 ppmv/K change caused by warming/cooling oceans.

Rod Evans
November 2, 2024 6:44 am

Thank you Prof David Shelley, a great overview and welcome summary of where we are.
I particularly like the simple truths that normal people can relate too. When the ocean average temperature is between 20 deg. C and 21 deg. C it is impossible to see how that mass can be warmed by an atmosphere it interfaces with that has a temperature of 14 deg. C to 15 deg. C average..
I have long held the view our climate variation is due to Milankovitch cycles along with tectonic changes altering the balance of solar gain globally and fluid circulation (mixing) of the oceans.
The very benign warming we have experienced in my lifetime, along with the advances in food production aided by increased CO2 availability to plants has been heaven sent (wherever that origination might be).
I will bookmark you piece and circulate it to friends and family who are still living in the real world.
Keep up the good work, the sanity of the world depends on people such as you.

D Sandberg
Reply to  Rod Evans
November 2, 2024 9:32 am

You state, “..tectonic changes altering the balance of solar gain globally and fluid circulation (mixing) of the oceans…” I agree and have long wondered why the amount of heat from magma heated water from tectonic activity is considered miniscule by the consensus crowd..

Copy

1.     In summary, the 2014-2017 El Niño “warm blob” was created, maintained, and is now being partially recharged by massive pulses of super-heated and chemically charged seawater from deep-sea geological features. Man-made atmospheric global warming had nothing to do with this El Niño, nor any previous El Niño.

2.     It’s time to change this atmospherically biased line of thinking …our planet is 70% water and 90% of all active volcanoes are present on the floor of Earth’s oceans…. if major rift/fault zones that from the boundary of Earth’s outer crustal plates have the power to move entire continents 1-2 inches per year, they certainly have the power to warm oceans.

3.     Plate Climatology Theory, states that geological forces are a greatly underestimated driver of Earth’s climate and many climate-related events
Source:plateclimatology.com/further-proof-el-nios-are-fueled-by-deepsea-geological-heat-flow
 
Comment:
Don’t like the plate climatology hypothesis? But love the Co2 climate control one? OK, explain the past.
Why did we descend into the LIA from the MWP?
Why did we warm out of the LIA?
These things occurred before human co2 could possibly cause the issue.

Duane
Reply to  D Sandberg
November 2, 2024 10:02 am

The warmunists simply assert, without any proof whatsoever, that CO2 causes all variation in atmospheric average temperature. And that nothing else matters. That is as unscientific as it can get.

Robert Cutler
November 2, 2024 7:05 am

Excellent article, though given the transactional nature of WUWT, it would have been better to break it up into two or three posting.

Climate models can be broken up into three categories:

Homocentric Climate Models (HCMs):

Anthropogenic emissions dominate over geocentric and heliocentric influences.

These are not supported by evidence. In fact, as I’ve shown previously, CO2 concentrations lag temperature by six months over all time intervals except annual, where the CO2 lag for seasonal variations is less than two months. My analysis has also shown that sensitivity varies with period, indicating a cumulative (or integral) effect so that the sensitivity of 5ppm/°C over 10-year periods could be extrapolated to 10ppm/°C over 20-year periods and 50ppm/°C over 100-year periods. This is still not quite enough to explain the changes in CO2 concentrations, so anthropogenic emissions might contribute, but it doesn’t matter, because there’s no statistical evidence to show that CO2 contributes to temperature.

Proponents of HCMs like to claim that the current rise in temperature is unprecedented and thus can only be caused by the sins of man. However, one only needs to look at Holocene climate records (e.g. GISP2) to see that similar rapid changes have occurred several times during the current interglacial.

HCMs are useful for profit and population control. While the models are too complex for most to understand, people can fooled by plotting CO2 concentrations along with global temperature.

Geocentric Climate Models (GCMs):

Climate variations are natural and are controlled by heat-transport mechanisms, clouds, polar vortexes, volcanoes, Milankovitch cycles, ice albedo, plate techtonics, with contributions from solar and anthropogenic emissions. David Shelly appears to support GCMs.

These models are not useful for population control because man can only react, not control, and because of their necessary complexity, most people won’t ever understand them.

Heleocentric Climate Models (HCMs):

Variations in solar activity are either chaotic, or are driven by the motions of the planets. (I’m finding the planets actually explain everything.) These variations drive GCMs and and ultimately most changes in CO2 concentrations. These can act directly through irradiance, primarily supplying heat into the oceans in the equatorial regions, and/or through the modulation of clouds via other mechanisms. Because of the tremendous heat capacity of the oceans, changes in surface temperatures can lag changes in solar activity by several decades.

These models are not useful for population control as again, man can only react to climate change. However, it is easy for people to grasp that changes in the sun could cause changes in earth’s climate.

When you get the order of forcing wrong the models can become quite complex. It’s like trying to show that sounds coming from a piano cause the keys to become depressed. When you get the order right, things become much simpler.

comment image

Reply to  Robert Cutler
November 2, 2024 11:20 am

Robert,

Your calculation of the temperature effect is much too high: over 5000 years warming from an ice age to an interglacial, the maximum range is +12.5 K for about 100 ppmv increase (that is a “speed” of 0.02 ppmv increase per year).
That gives a maximum of about 8 ppmv/K as result of warming Antarctica or 16 ppmv/K for global temperatures. That is all.

The increase in SST since 1850 is not even a full degree C (1 K), thus maximum good for 16 ppmv, not the 130 ppmv we have seen. That is fully caused by the over 200 ppmv fossil emissions, nothing else…

Robert Cutler
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
November 2, 2024 3:42 pm

Ferdinand,

My calculation of temperature effect is based only on measured data. Proxy data doesn’t have the accuracy or temporal resolution necessary for good accuracy. A frequency response function is used as it allows different processes to potentially be identified. Also, coherent averaging reduces bias from uncorrelated signals. This method also avoids the pitfalls of using a 1-year moving average to minimize seasonal variations.

The 5ppm/°C sensitivity (4.9 in the plot) is computed directly from the frequency response between CO2 concentrations and temperature for a period of 10 years. The slope in the magnitude response matches that of an integrator, hence the extrapolation to 20 and 100 years. Now, the extrapolations could be high if the response is that of a low-pass filter with a shorter time constant.

In the phase response, delay is proportional to slope. Negative slopes indicates temperature leading CO2. There are three distinct processes visible: one with a six-month delay, one with a shorter delay at a frequency of 0.75 year^-1, and the seasonal process with a delay of 0.11 year^-1.

comment image

November 2, 2024 7:06 am

If you double the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere you get 0.17C difference in temperature. You cannot see CO2, all those photos of stuff coming out of chimneys, water vapour. Each of us breathes out 2 pounds of CO2 a day. It is now estimated that plants can consume 31% more CO2 than was formerly the settled ‘fact’. The world is greening. CO2 is essential and current climate policies are a mania still waiting to unearth a killer fact dribbling on with occasional profundities, inevitably refuted. Every computer model will have to be reprogrammed to account for this consumption fact. Conclude in haste, repent at leisure.

rckkrgrd
November 2, 2024 7:18 am

Although this is a long post it is the most comprehensive assessment of the available climate science that I have read to date. Notably, the author is a geologist, of the one group of scientists that were studying climate long before the current insanity emerged.
Nick states there are many flaws but is unwilling to undertake a point by point review. I think it would be very difficult to form logical counter arguments to most of the points made.
I have often wondered at the strong support for the illogical arguments made for dangerous anthropogenic climate change or more specifically the dangers from a slight atmospheric warming.
Some of the answer may lie in this statement From IPCC official Ottmar Edenhofer: “One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. It is not. It is actually about how we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth”.
It sounds like a honorable goal to enrich the worlds poorest at the expense of those richer. The actual result of the effort, however, is already beginning to be evident. The very richest of the planet are steadily gaining wealth and power at the expense of the very poor and the relatively wealthy. It seems probable that this has been the intent from the beginning.

jshotsky
November 2, 2024 7:30 am

An excellent read, most of which I had already learned and accepted. It was great to see it all put together in one place. I think every politician on earth should have to read it.

There was some new information for me, but I don’t fully agree with everything stated.

I think it would be good to tie the closing of the Isthmus of Panama (3 million years ago) to the massive climate change that it caused. That closure helped create the gulf stream which warms northern Europe and changed ocean and atmospheric circulation worldwide. London, for example is at the same latitude as the southern part of Alaska. (51 latitude)

I have a mental picture of earth as a spinning top. From the sun’s point of view, earth is passing under a point at 1000 miles per hour (24,000 miles circumference, once per day.) The poles are at zero miles per hour. I think the rearrangement of the continents is at least partly caused by the centrifugal force of spinning earth. Something is driving the continents to continue to drift. That also may have played a part in the closing of the Isthmus of Panama. Eventually, I envision more land area nearer the equator then now, where centrifugal force is greatest. Many millions of years, of course. I guess I’ll go search and see if anyone else has come up with that idea.

sturmudgeon
Reply to  jshotsky
November 2, 2024 2:11 pm

nearer the equator then now,” doesn’t make any sense… unless you meant “than” now….

November 2, 2024 8:30 am

Good summary piece.

November 2, 2024 9:09 am

I don’t believe there is any sort of climate emergency. But in a way that is not the critical question. The question to ask, well two of them:

  • Are the remedies the activists propose doable and affordable
  • If they were done, would they, on the activists own theory, be effective?

The answer is no to both.

No, you cannot run the grid of a modern industrial economy on wind and solar. You cannot do it at all, and the attempt will be ruinously expensive, because of intermittency.

Even if you could do it, it will not be effective. In the first place only about 25% of emitters are making any effort to do it, and the other 75% are not going to change and try. And second, the electricity sector only does about 30% of emissions. So current demands can hit at most one third of 25% of global emissions, say under 10%. And those who are emitting the most are raising, not lowering, their emissions.

Emissions are going to head north of 45 billion tons a year no matter what anyone in the West does. The only question is whether we in the West get there having wasted a fortune on trying to do the impossible and unaffordable with wind and solar.

This is the real issue, and it has little or nothing to do with the level of CO2 in the atmosphere and their cause, which seems to me largely a side issue. Its academically and scientifically interesting of course. But the real issue is energy, and particularly energy policy in the West, and the complete impracticality of what the activists are proposing.

November 2, 2024 9:22 am

Is Brokenwood as nice as t seems and have you been across the “One Lane Bridge”?

ferdberple
November 2, 2024 10:36 am

The first graph shows that high CO2 levels are followed by a rapid decrease in temperatures.

ferdberple
November 2, 2024 10:41 am

HEAVY RAIN

CO2 is removing raindrops from the sky!!

CO2 is much heavier than H2O (44 vs 18). By dissolving in H2O, CO2 increases the weight of raindrops, causing this heavy rain to fall from the sky. Leaving only light, co2 free h2o.