Massive Electricity Price Rises Expected as National Grid Confirms Gas is the Only Back-Up for Intermittent Renewables

From THE DAILY SCEPTIC

by Chris Morrison

The cat is finally out of the bag. It is planned that Britain by 2030 will produce 95% of its electricity from so-called green sources with 5% coming from gas. The pretence that electricity can be stored at scale to support unreliable renewables is nowhere to be seen in a recent Guardian interview with Fintan Slye, the head of National Energy System Operator (NESO). “There will continue to be a significant amount of power plants in reserve for the cold, dull, windless weeks of winter, but they will run for only limited periods,” observes Slye, whose operation was recently nationalised and is responsible for balancing supply and demand across the National Grid.

His remarks both clarify and strike fear at the same time. There is no back-up at scale for intermittent breezes and sunbeams and this has been obvious for some time, although the subject is rarely discussed in mainstream media and politics. Reserve gas generation is the only game in town if all life in Britain is not to grind to a halt during a windless, winter freeze. But keeping an entire fleet of gas turbines on standby will cost a huge amount of money, causing electricity prices to soar. The planned destruction of Britain’s own gas and oil industry will hardly help future sourcing and pricing, let alone national security.

Britain already has some of the highest electricity prices in the developed world and doubling, trebling or quadrupling charges will help destroy what is left of industry and condemn the population to drastically falling standards of living. As always with green punch-down lunacy, the poorest in society will be the hardest hit. Many people will be priced out of basic necessities they have always taken for granted such as light, heat, refrigeration, cooking facilities and electronic goods to access the online world.

One commonly peddled fantasy can be found in the Guardian article. “Conversely, there will be days when Great Britain generates far more electricity from renewable sources than it can use or store, so there are likely to be greater exports to neighbouring countries,” notes Slye. But of course weather does not stop at national boundaries. Nearby countries are likely to share similar windy conditions and with every operator trying to offload energy, the price offered would drop like a stone towards zero.

Already in the U.K., the National Grid is forced to pay renewable operators to stop producing energy. Last year, ‘constraint’ payments of nearly £1 billion were paid. It might be noted that this is not far short of the amount recently saved by scrapping the pensioners’ winter fuel allowance. But these sums are chicken feed compared with the overall subsidies paid to renewable energy operators, with over £12 billion added to the annual fuel bills of consumers. The more renewable generating capacity is added to the mix, the more the constraint payments and subsidies are likely to increase. With bunce like this, it is hardly surprising that Ecotricity boss Dale Vince, who runs onshore windmills, recently gifted £5 million to improve the election chances of the Labour party.

It is likely that the Mad Miliband is set on a 75-80% contribution to the grid from the breezes and the beams. Again we must be obliged to the Guardian for covering the subject in such detail and pointing out so vividly the further difficulties that are likely to arise when the wind drops during the 18 hours of winter darkness. Basically, the price goes up, in fact it soars up to 20 times higher. In March 2023, the Guardian reported that the grid was forced to buy gas-generated power in a windless cold period at £1,950 per megawatt hour (MWh). The usual price is around £100 MWh. One industry source  is reported to have said the price of sourcing power from gas peaking plants had “raised eyebrows”. Vitol is the largest oil trader in the world and knows something about securing the best market-determined rate. At this time it offered a price of £5,750 per MWh although the offer from its Rye House subsidiary was not accepted.

In an article published by the Manhattan Contrarian, Francis Menton discusses the “disastrous economics” of trying to power an electric grid with 100% intermittent renewables. The move inevitably brings about large increases in the actual price of electricity that must be paid by consumers. But he doesn’t just rely on theoretical calculations. “In those jurisdictions that have succeeded in getting generation from renewable up to as high as about 30% of their total electricity supply [Britain hit around 34% in 2023], the result has been an approximate tripling in the price of electricity for their consumers,” he states. Furthermore, he continues: “As the percentage of electricity coming from renewables increases, the consumer price increases accelerate.”

In his social media blockbuster Climate: The Movie, Martin Durkin introduces it as the story of how an eccentric environmental scare grew into a powerful global industry. “Climate change is an invented scare of self-interest and snobbery, cynically promoted by a parasitic, publicly-funded establishment hungry for power and money,” he charges. He could not have summed up better the drive to the command-and control Net Zero project.  Deliberately making energy more expensive by ‘de-carbonising’ the U.K. grid by 2030 is just one of the many economic and societal changes being planned by the new Labour hegemony.

Chris Morrison is the Daily Sceptic’s Environment Editor.

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October 5, 2024 2:09 am

So you need a full fleet of gas turbines that still need billions £ to build and have fixed operating costs while in hibernation, and somehow you expect them to give electricity away when the wind is not blowing and the sun has gone to bed. £300 a year lower bills LOL.

As for selling the surplus, when its windy in the UK then its normally windy in Western Europe so you will be giving it away not getting paid.

Editor
Reply to  kommando828
October 5, 2024 2:57 am

I don’t think the UK will be giving it away. I think they would have to pay Europe to take it.

Bryan A
Reply to  Mike Jonas
October 5, 2024 8:44 am

Aah … the downside to Overcapacity … and overcapacity is needed to overcome Wind and Solar’s inherent abysmal crapacity factors.
To produce equal to an 1100MW FF generator you need 2800MW of Wind installed or for Solar you would need over 4400MW in Summer or 11000MW in Winter
There’s nothing more expensive than cheap renewables whose “Free Fuel” is only available at the whims of weather and seldom dependable when demand requires

Reply to  Bryan A
October 6, 2024 11:33 pm

It’s much worse than that, because one also needs weeks’s worth of battery capacity or other storage (last time I checked, just 4hr of storage cost roughly the same as the equivalent MW of wind supply) and then double the excess capacity you quote, in order to charge it up.

I wish governments would pick a small village near a windfarm and try to run it disconnected from the national grid, only from the windfarm or local solar – just so the fairy tales from eco fanatics can be disproved once and for all!

strativarius
October 5, 2024 2:19 am

The law of Sod says this will be a very cold winter.

And expensive.

Reply to  strativarius
October 5, 2024 4:31 am

law of Sod? Another Brit term- so much we Yanks learn here 🙂

strativarius
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 5, 2024 4:35 am

Sod’s law, a British culture axiom, states that “if something can go wrong, it will”….

Reply to  strativarius
October 5, 2024 5:42 am

Sounds like Murphy’s law here.

strativarius
Reply to  Barnes Moore
October 5, 2024 5:52 am

Only a slight difference by [culture and] name.

Bryan A
Reply to  strativarius
October 5, 2024 8:47 am

Proving once again that the Brits know SOD about Murphy

strativarius
Reply to  Bryan A
October 5, 2024 9:24 am

We know he’s expensive and so does Dublin.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Barnes Moore
October 5, 2024 10:08 am

Murphy’s Law was not written by Murphy. It was written by another man named Murphy.

Reply to  Barnes Moore
October 5, 2024 10:08 am

Remember to corollary to Murphy’s Law:

Murphy was an optimist.

pccitizen
Reply to  Fraizer
October 6, 2024 6:39 am

That’s O’toole’s corollary

Reply to  Barnes Moore
October 5, 2024 5:59 pm

Murphy was a Sod.

gezza1298
Reply to  strativarius
October 5, 2024 5:56 am

Labour government policy perhaps?

Coeur de Lion
October 5, 2024 2:22 am

Oh by the way what’s all this stuff about cold winter nights? As I write UK’s 19 is it Gigawatts of faceplate capacity are producing seven GW on a normal not very breezy October morning. Quadruple that, Milliband, and now provide the 12GW to a modest demand of 40GW (because heat pump and EV campaigns have flopped) and do it for weeks. Of course he’s never going to be able to quadruple faceplate anyway.

Bill Toland
Reply to  Coeur de Lion
October 5, 2024 3:55 am

“It is planned that Britain by 2030 will produce 95% of its electricity from so-called green sources with 5% coming from gas”.

There is no credible plan to produce 95% of electricity from green sources. Of course, this cannot possibly happen except in the imagination of Ed Miliband whose connection to reality is becoming more strained with every day that passes.

Reply to  Bill Toland
October 5, 2024 4:32 am

I saw him speak at the UN recently. First time seeing him. Not impressed. 🙂

hmmm. or maybe it was Starmer

David Goeden
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 5, 2024 7:16 am

Britain has not done anything impressive since the British Invasion of the 1960s.

Reply to  David Goeden
October 5, 2024 8:33 am

I saw the Beatles in Shay Stadium in ’65. Took a crappy home video of it too. I should upload it to YouTube. Probably worth a fortune. 🙂

David Goeden
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 5, 2024 10:33 am

There is a ton of stuff for The Beatles on utube and you need huge numbers of eyeballs to make real money.

Andrew
Reply to  David Goeden
October 6, 2024 1:42 am

What about the channel tunnel?

David Goeden
Reply to  Andrew
October 6, 2024 9:31 am

Touche Mon Ami !

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 5, 2024 6:00 pm

Same same.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Bill Toland
October 5, 2024 8:09 am

Miliband has been told, probably by griff, that the interconnectors will always come to the rescue. He doesn’t seem to understand that wind lulls can coincide with periods of high electricity demand such as anti cyclonic weather systems with cold still weather in winter and hot still weather in summer. These can last for days or weeks and hit several countries at the same time.

Reply to  Dave Andrews
October 5, 2024 8:34 am

Oh, heck- you Brits are tough- with that stiff upper lip- you will appreciate being cold and hot. It’s good for you. /s

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 5, 2024 12:01 pm

It’s character building!

Reply to  Nansar07
October 5, 2024 1:47 pm

Back when the Brits were tough- they conquered much of the world. Then along came George Washington and a few other crazy radicals…..

David A
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 6, 2024 4:43 am

George Washington’s ancestors were born and raised in England, in the counties of Durham and Northamptonshire

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/travel/1995/02/26/george-washingtons-british-roots/855619e0-e01a-45b1-9ce3-8c386aef219b/

Reply to  David A
October 6, 2024 5:43 am

read “Washington – A Life” by Chernoff. A great biography. I’ve read it twice.

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 5, 2024 6:07 pm

That “stiff upper lip” is frozen in place.

Reply to  Dave Andrews
October 5, 2024 6:06 pm

There’s one thing I have noticed travelling the Med and Eastern Europe the past couple of years (July August September) … hottish, dryish, and a LOT of Sahara dust in the air. So whilst it is sunny, the illuminance is significantly inhibited.

Reply to  Streetcred
October 6, 2024 5:45 am

The Sirocco- isn’t that routine? Worse in some years of course.

Bryan A
Reply to  Bill Toland
October 5, 2024 8:50 am

And will eliminate 70% of its population in order to prove efficacy

Reply to  Coeur de Lion
October 5, 2024 9:37 am

Think its about 30 GW, roughly half off- and half on-shore. In the winter several days in a row of under 5 GW are quite common, and you also get days with well under 1 GW. Have a look at

https://gridwatch.co.uk/WIND

Westfieldmike
October 5, 2024 2:31 am

I think Starmer and his team of clowns must be working for China. I have six months worth of logs stored. We are going to need them

strativarius
Reply to  Westfieldmike
October 5, 2024 5:56 am

You’d be surprised

“”Starmer’s close friendPhilippe Sands KC is Mauritus’ chief legal adviser and a longtime agitator for Mauritian control of the islands.””
https://order-order.com/2024/10/03/exclusive-starmers-close-friend-is-mauritius-chief-legal-adviser-on-chagos-islands/

auto
Reply to  strativarius
October 5, 2024 10:59 am

Coincidence … possibly.

Auto

Westfieldmike
October 5, 2024 2:37 am

Heads up for chicken duck and goose owners. Even if you have just one bird, it must be registered with the Government by October, or it’s a £2500 fine or prison. I kid you not.
You also have to update that every year, or face jail.
Welcome to ‘a light touch on the people’.

strativarius
Reply to  Westfieldmike
October 5, 2024 2:43 am

Now Guido is forced to register his egg-celent investigative reporter Guido Squawks to the government database…
https://order-order.com/2024/09/30/guido-squawks-added-to-mandatory-government-register/

Reply to  Westfieldmike
October 5, 2024 4:34 am

wow, that’s absurd!

strativarius
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 5, 2024 5:07 am

It’s Labour Britain

Reply to  strativarius
October 5, 2024 5:31 am

Certainly fowl play.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  strativarius
October 5, 2024 8:14 am

It predates Labour. Brought in in 2018.

strativarius
Reply to  Dave Andrews
October 5, 2024 9:26 am

Anti-Brexit Parliament…

Reply to  Westfieldmike
October 5, 2024 5:30 am

I was very tempted to register a turkey at the address 10 Downing Street and a flock of 600 chickens at the Palace of Westminster, but given that cracking a joke can get you jail time these days…

Reply to  Westfieldmike
October 5, 2024 10:12 am

I have read (but not verified) that there is a malicious compliance campaign going on. People are registering rubber dickies, rubber chickens, chicken nuggets, frozen chickens…

Sounds about right.

John XB
October 5, 2024 2:54 am

“But keeping an entire fleet of gas turbines on standby will cost a huge amount of money…”

This assumes investors will be willing to invest, update and maintain gas turbines with uncertain revenue/profit return.

It seems – to me – the Government will nationalise gas back-up via the vehicle it is about to create, GB Energy.

As for over-production of wind/solar power this is the continuous famine or feast of intermittency, but why is it assumed intermittency only applies to direct supply and not the storage fantasy? Why is it assumed that surplus wind/solar will always be available to store when required?

The hope is lunatic Labour will be a one term Government, which looks likely, but who will follow. Will the Conservatives still persist with the Net Zero nonsense or will Reform UK be in a position to win an election and form a Government and torpedo the nonsense?

Reply to  John XB
October 5, 2024 3:42 am

As mad as Labour’s schemes are the Conservatives had much the same plans with a veneer of sense. Note when Sunak announced the pushback of the ban on sales of petrol and diesel cars back from 2030 to 2035 he did not change the fines for selling them past 2030. So every petrol/diesel sold past 2030 came with a £15K fine which would be added to the selling price. So no real difference. Sunak also had announced a build of Gas power stations for wind/sun unreliables backup too, with no details of how they were to be paid for so got assume the consumer electricity bill increases to pay.

gezza1298
Reply to  John XB
October 5, 2024 6:00 am

Taxpayers and/or customers will end up paying for the back up because it offers no return on investment to private investors.

Reply to  John XB
October 5, 2024 10:16 am

“…This assumes investors will be willing to invest, update and maintain gas turbines with uncertain revenue/profit return…”
They will be paid handsomely. In times of power deficit they essentially hold he entire grid hostage.



October 5, 2024 3:43 am

Justin Rowlatt interviewed Fintan Slye for BBC Breakfast on Monday. Here is the audio of the interview: https://cw50b.github.io/Fintan_Slye_01-10-24.mp3

Justin Rowlatt: It’s not just about investing in new infrastructure, you’re also going to be asking consumers or offering consumers the opportunity to change the way they use power. Just briefly explain that to me.

Fintan Slye: I think that’s a really important part of what we need to do. In the past we had our demand flexibility service where we paid people to change how they use electricity. We recently had 17 hundred EVs on the grid contributing to how we manage the system and making that participation of customers even easier into the future is a critical part of transforming the system.

Translation: We’ll be making smart meters compulsory and don’t expect to get to work in your EV on a still winter day.

strativarius
Reply to  Cyan
October 5, 2024 4:37 am

Slye by name…

October 5, 2024 4:01 am

From the article: “But keeping an entire fleet of gas turbines on standby will cost a huge amount of money, causing electricity prices to soar.”

So, in effect, the UK will have two separate electricity generating methods, one, where windmills and solar supply the electricity, and the other where natural gas powerplants supply the elctricity when windmills and solar don’t function, like when the wind doesn’t blow and/or the sun doesn’t shine.

In order to use windmills and solar, you have to have enough backup to provide the elctricity when windmills and solar can’t do the job.

The logical solution for those who don’t have an unwarranted fear of CO2 is to scrap the windmills and solar and rely on the natural gas powerplants.

Doing so would probably cut electic bills in half if not more, considering how much windmills and solar get from subsidies.

From the article: “Already in the U.K., the National Grid is forced to pay renewable operators to stop producing energy. Last year, ‘constraint’ payments of nearly £1 billion were paid.”

From my point of view, it is crazy to pay someone not to produce electricity. Climate Alarmists have to jump through numerous hoops to get windmills and solar operational, which basically amounts to paying their operators more money, and that’s why electricity prices are going through the roof and will continue to do so as long as Climate Alarmists are in charge of policy.

Net Zero is a disaster in the making. No good is going to come from it. The UK Labour Pary is oblivious.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
October 5, 2024 4:23 am

The whole UK political class is oblivious with the exception of Reform, the Uniparty have all much the same policies under the skin.

strativarius
Reply to  kommando828
October 5, 2024 5:59 am

Reform are on probation

Reply to  kommando828
October 5, 2024 6:12 pm

I don’t think they are oblivious, I think it is deliberate and they think they are the new ‘noble class’.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
October 5, 2024 6:36 am

Post says:”…two separate electricity generating methods…”.

This has been true since people started talking about solar and wind. Electricity must double (at least) in price.

October 5, 2024 4:30 am

When the gas turbine are dormant- will there be workers on the site- waiting for a call to turn on the turbines? Or no workers are needed on site? Just curious.

Jim Turner
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 5, 2024 5:50 am

I’m not an expert, but I believe that gas turbine generators are not responsive enough when started ‘from cold’, so a so-called ‘spinning reserve’ is maintained, the turbine run at idle so that it can be ramped up to full powere quickly when needed.

Reply to  Jim Turner
October 5, 2024 8:15 am

The plan is to have spinning flywheels as well, so maybe they are to be used to allow for the time for gas turbines to get up to speed. All bodging with multi-layers each of which could fail with blackout consequences, Just dig up some coal, stick a coal fired generator next to the mine and generate. Not a lot to go wrong and the tomatoes in the local greenhouses will love the CO2.

Reply to  kommando828
October 5, 2024 10:03 am

Yes, they are proposing flywheels, but the amount of storage is tiny compared to peak demand. Fine maybe to smooth out short term fluctuations, but no use if you have one of the usual winter calms of several days.

Reply to  michel
October 5, 2024 10:22 am

Neglecting the fact that such large flywheels are not feasible and would be a true danger in any catastrophic failure mode, they would represent a third level of power generation that has to be built, manned, and maintained.

Reply to  Jim Turner
October 5, 2024 8:31 am

So workers must be on those gas generator sites at all times- 24/7? Maybe not many are needed- but still, it’s an expense.

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 5, 2024 10:28 am

Moreover, a certain number of the turbines are going to have to be kept warmed up and spinning. Turbines become horribly fuel inefficient below ~80% output so you are paying almost as much for fuel to run a turbine at idle as you are to actually generate some power with it.

Also, starts/stops are really hard on turbines as is ramping them all over the place. That leads to higher maintenance costs, more unplanned maintenance due to failures and more frequent major overhauls.

David A
Reply to  Fraizer
October 6, 2024 4:54 am

All true, yet then the yahoos in charge can say, look how expensive gas is! And they do say it.

Reply to  Jim Turner
October 5, 2024 10:01 am

I am no expert either, but think its a bit different from this. You have two sorts of gas generation. One kind is CCGT, combined cycle. The other kind is Open Cycle Gas Turbine (OCGT).

CCGT is a bit like a condensing boiler, very efficient, but its relatively slow start. OCGT is very fast start but less efficient. To smooth out wind fluctuations you need at least some OCGT because of rapid start.

So when you are comparing systems, you have to compare a system using only CCGT with a system using wind plus OCGT plus some CCGT. The wind may save on fuel some of the time, but when it drops its not like just moving back to CCGT, you move to much higher fuel consumption OCGT, so the fuel savings are lower than you might expect.

You have to provide in the UK for a situation where for several hours 30 GW of wind produces less than 1 GW, several times a winter. And where at the same time, because its a winter evening, there is zero solar. So you have to have a totally duplicate capacity in gas. This is a big deal. It means having for current peak demand 45GW+ of gas. But after the UK gets through moving everyone to heat pumps and EVs it will be more like 100 GW.

You can see the situation in graphical form on gridwatch:

http://www.gridwatch.co.uk/wind

And if you want the raw data, it can be downloaded from templar:

https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

The true madness of the UK proposals is that they are proposing to raise peak demand to about 100 GW, but they are proposing to meet this from about 135 GW of wind + solar.

It cannot be done. The result of seriously trying will be nationwide blackouts and cold starts. And lots of deaths, in a cold winter.

I don’t think any of the activists (and that includes Miliband) have taken on board what a nationwide blackout will mean. It will happen when its dark from 4pm to 9am. So people sitting in the dark. And when heating, even if its gas, requires electricity for the boilers and central heating pumps. And when a very large proportion of the population is cooking on gas.

A cold start from nationwide blackout will take several days to recover. If it happens in January or February it will be a real disaster. You have to imagine how this is going to be on day two, people sitting in the dark, unable to cook, unable to heat, unable even to charge their phones….

If they don’t blink, this is what is coming.

UK-Weather Lass
October 5, 2024 4:33 am

We have to accept that the UK has had no sensible energy policy for far too long, and now the many unanswered problems this political negligence creates for common people are revealing themselves at an accelerating pace. No one would believe we have gas in quantity under our feet by far a cleaner and less polluting fuel than solar or wind will ever be. Johnson was negligent. Starmer is negligent. Miliband hasn;t the brain to be anything other than unfit for public office, period.

We face huge bills for a very poor service provided by a market which no regulator has ever managed properly and sooner or later, just as happened with the NHS and COVID-19, the whole thing will collapse. Britain is truly breaking apart…

gezza1298
Reply to  UK-Weather Lass
October 5, 2024 6:03 am

The only use of the Labour government is to accelerate us into the buffers of reality quicker than the socialist Tories intended to.

Jim Turner
Reply to  UK-Weather Lass
October 5, 2024 6:21 am

Unfortunately collapse seems to be the only thing that will notify the British public of the true situation. You will find no mention of any of the problems highlighted here on the BBC or ITV, just endless carp (anag.) about ‘global warming’ on every weather-related disaster news item.

Reply to  Jim Turner
October 5, 2024 6:51 am

Fewer and fewer people watch the BBC or ITV nowadays. MSM is dying.

Boff Doff
October 5, 2024 4:40 am

In that interview the Irishman also told us there is 700-800GW of renewables lined up to be added to the grid as and when planning permission is granted. There would appear to be 20 times the normal demand in faceplate capacity coming.

With periods of negatively priced electricity on the horizon investing in a home methanation plant has never looked so attractive.

Reply to  Boff Doff
October 5, 2024 8:18 am

The pipeline of renewables is an industry in itself, get the next step of approval ticked and the project value increases exponentially. There is a market where you buy a start up project, employ some project engineers to get the next stage approved and then sell it on to the next entity up the chain at a profit. A sizeable proportion hit the buffers at some point and are then worthless.

Reply to  Boff Doff
October 5, 2024 10:05 am

Yes, that was an extraordinary number for a country with peak demand of about 45 GW. Even when they double demand with EVs and heat pumps it will still be 700-800 GW in pursuit of 100 GW of demand. That cannot make any financial sense unless prices go through the roof.

Denis
October 5, 2024 4:40 am

The goal of this scheme is to reduce carbon dioxide releases yet absent from this article is the effect of the scheme on these releases. Natural-gas powered peaking plants are notoriously thermodynamically inefficient at part load particularly when idling when their efficiency is zero and their fuel consumption is as much as 40% of their full power consumption. Many will have to be idling to respond quickly to the fickle power changes from wind and rays. Surely the power authorities must have calculated this effect as it is basic engineering. And what are the results? Are there any reductions at all? Or perhaps they have not yet got around to it?

October 5, 2024 4:44 am

“Gas is the Only Back-Up for Intermittent Renewables”
Intermittent Renewables should never be anything but a tiny occasional supplement to the grid in places where intermittency doesn’t matter too much..
COAL and gas should be the mainstay, with hydro, geothermal in those small areas where they are worthwhile.

Nuclear where coal and gas are harder to come by.

October 5, 2024 5:23 am

[The] price offered would drop like a stone towards zero.

Well there we have the lie. If the price drops to zero the generator would get no income. But of course they will. The lower bound on their income can’t approach zero because of constraint payments and contracts for difference payments. Someone has to put their hand in their pocket no matter what. Electricity will never be free. It will never be cheap. The best we can expect is that it is minimally profitable for the generator. But market forces won’t be allowed to ensure that, so either the generators will profit unjustly because of a feckless regulator allowing it, or they will go broke, for the same reason.

And while I am ranting…

The planned destruction of Britain’s own gas and oil industry will hardly help future sourcing and pricing, let alone national security.

Can we please put that to bed? Unless we are advocating nationalisation of the oil and gas reserves the producers are allowed to sell on the open market to maximize profit. The oil and gas will go to the highest bidder, just like now. We are not entitled to skim our share first, at “mates rates”. If that’s what we want, let’s come clean and demand nationalisation. (We’ll see how investible that will make the UK look.)

David A
Reply to  quelgeek
October 6, 2024 5:03 am

Fewer producers means higher prices.

ralfellis
October 5, 2024 6:54 am

What will prevent a CO2 well blowout, from a CCS system – which would cause a Lake Nyos disaster of monumental proportions? They point to rock calcification, but that takes a long time. Meanwhile, we have millions of tonnes of supercritical CO2, under high pressure and ready to blow.

The CO2 from a blowout would hug the ground, killing every living animal in its path. Millions might die, depending on the proximity to cities. Especially from North Sea wells, where the CO2 could drift serenely towards the English east coast.

Carbon Capture systems may create a Lake Nyos disaster, to York, Newcastle, or Teeside.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos_disaster

Ralph

Reply to  ralfellis
October 6, 2024 1:09 am

I’m skeptical. Spend any time on the UK East Coast, anywhere from Kent to Scotland, and this will not seem plausible. Even on relatively calm days there are healthy breezes.

During the Lake Nyos disaster there was an explosion releasing a column of the gas, which then ascended, and CO2 being heavier than air, descended and spread, particularly in valleys. But this was an inland area. Surely by the time any such cloud got to shore on the East Coast of the UK it would be heavily diluted and would rapidly disperse.

Carbon capture as planned in the UK is of course idiotic, I’m not disputing that. Its inordinately expensive, untested at scale, and even if it works will not reduce global CO2 levels by any measurable amount.

But I will need a lot more convincing that it can enable a Lake Nyos type of disaster on the East Coast.

auto
Reply to  ralfellis
October 6, 2024 1:50 am

Well, if it did happen – I take no view – nobody would be held responsible in modern Britain.
Look at –
Post Office Horizon scandal [one lady handed her Damehood back …];
Home Insulation scandal – cowboy regs, cowboy builders;
Rochdale etc. grooming scandals – thousands of girls abused, and a few men convicted, but the system allowed this to continue for decades;
Northern Ireland Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme – a billion or more blown;
Early release of prisons – because there are not enough cells;
Water firms releasing raw sewage into rivers, literally tens of thousands of times, whilst paying monstrous dividends from borrowed money – and the regulator, Ofwat, doesn’t even squeak;
A series of scandals in Maternity units – Cumbria, Nottingham, Shrewsbury – no-one responsible;
Migration – appallingly inaccurate estimates, very fallible prevention; ludicrously lenient acceptance standards;
The treatment of the ‘Windrush’ migrants – no responsibility;
The Metropolitan Police [London’s ‘service’], with lousy detection rates, tolerance of rapists in the force, incompetence, etc.;
The scam where apprenticeship levies support senior staff MBAs!;
Grenfell – 70 dead in a fire in [green] cladding – seven years ago; the lawyers are making a mint, but nobody [yet?] is responsible.

This is obviously a feature of public like in the UK – errors are accepted.
So even if a Lake Nyos event wipes out half of – say – Bridlington – no one will be held to account.

Auto
I weep for my country

ralfellis
October 5, 2024 7:09 am

Why are these idiots, like Ed Millipede, deciding energy policy on the fly, with no idea what they are talking about??

In the recent reports to government the Royal Society said hydrogen storage was easy, and would only cost £220 billion. In teality, it is untested at scale, and would cost £2,000 billion. Meanwhile, the Climate Change Committe was calculating energy storage in gw, instead of gwh. Yet despite this nonsense, Ed Millipede has a clear and rational energy policy…!

The truth is…

When the UK goes all electric renewable, we will need 30,000 gwh of storage for 10 days of backup. This is about 1,000 Dinorwig or Coire Glas PWS systems. Where are we going to build 1,000 new PWS systems? Coire Glas has been costed at £2 billion, so the total cost of stored energy would be £2 trillion.

At present we only have plans for about 60 gwh of storage, by 2030. So only another 29,940 gwh of storage to build…! At this rate, we will have our stored energy system ready, in 1,000 years time. I told the Department of Energy this a year ago – so perhaps you can see why they are having second thoughts about stored energy. (It takes a year to percolate through a department.)

.

Plus, does the Mad Millipede realise that to go ALL electric renewables (without stored backup), we will need to INCREASE gas generation capacity from the current 30 gw capacity, to about 90 gw. (To act as a backup.)  So a tripling of gas generation plants – plus all his completely untried CCS systems – to cope with our transport, heating and industry all switching to electric. 

Where are the plans, to triple gas power plants, and to store all that gas for when it is needed.?

The Mad Millipede strums his ukulele.
comment image

Ralph

CD in Wisconsin
Reply to  ralfellis
October 5, 2024 8:12 am

“Why are these idiots, like Ed Millipede, deciding energy policy on the fly, with no idea what they are talking about??”

I’ve noticed that we humans have a tendency at times to let the wrong people be in charge (elect them), and we only realize the mistake after the damage is done. The Germans from 1933-45 and Mussolini in Italy were the two best examples from the previous century. For all the damage he has done (murdering millions), Stalin is still revered in Russia. No lessons learned there yet.

Here in the U.S. it was Biden and Harris, only I’m not sure we’ve really learned anything from them yet. Harris may still win in November so she can finish screwing things up.

One solution to the problem of Starmer and Miliband for wealthy British is to move to one of Britain’s warm weather overseas territories like the British Virgin Islands, the Cayman Islands, Bermuda, the Turks & Caicos islands, etc. Here in the U.S. we just move to a warmer southern state like Florida. Electricity rates are lower there than in the Democrat-run states like New York and California.

Like I keep saying: To err is human, but to really screw things up requires government.

auto
Reply to  CD in Wisconsin
October 6, 2024 1:53 am

But, after the Chagos debacle, won’t Sir Starmer hand British Virgin Islands, the Cayman Islands, Bermuda, the Turks & Caicos islands, to China or N. Korea?

Auto

ralfellis
October 5, 2024 7:13 am

.
Ed Millipede’s other big idea is solar power, which is obviously highly intermittent and will also need stored backup or gas generation backup.

But the main trouble with solar, is it does not work in the winter (in the UK). Thus again we will need another completely separate generation system, just for winter.

Images: 
Solar does not work in winter. Solar is yellow.

Summer
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Winter
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Ralph

ralfellis
Reply to  ralfellis
October 5, 2024 7:18 am

.
The exception to the many problems of solar power, is Australia. Being antipodean, and thus on the circumference of the flat Earth, Australia gets solar power 24/7.

Which makes things a lot simpler for them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyS9uqRLbB8

R

Rahx360
October 5, 2024 11:21 am

For years I tell people cheering when solar gets build that the price of electricity will goes up with each solar panel.
You don’t have to be a mastermind. Too much sun and wind creates overproduction and negative prices. No wind and sun and you make zero money. You need back up that makes nothing when wind and sun produces and when not you have to sell electricity from back up at outrages prices. Worst thing is that multiple countries are betting on battery packs. Why can’t nobody stop this madness? Aren’t policies violating our human rights?

Bob
October 5, 2024 12:50 pm

Excellent Chris, I couldn’t have said it better myself. A totally government manufactured problem.

October 5, 2024 2:10 pm

Everyone knows a Miliband is not programmed to comprehend math. If you want even rudimentary math skills, you have to upgrade to at least a Centiband.

Think of the “whomp… whomp… whomp…” of the green religion’s turbines as a sort of divine cudgel, hammering the economy with every single thump.

observa
October 5, 2024 10:17 pm

“Conversely, there will be days when Great Britain generates far more electricity from renewable sources than it can use or store, so there are likely to be greater exports to neighbouring countries,”

Yep and that’s what South Australia relies on with interconnectors to Vic brown coal and NSW black-
Renewable penetration record falls for third time this week on Australia’s main grid | RenewEconomy
while the eastern States are flat out installing their own fickles and getting rid of coal. The fallacy of composition problem is obvious but the climate changers sold a pup to rooftop solar owners and can’t own it so they slushfund bandaid measures.