By David Wojick
America faces a growing threat from grid scale lithium battery fires. Construction of huge battery arrays with no concern for potentially catastrophic fires is out of control. There are no established standards to follow and local permitting authorities seem oblivious to this very real danger.
What follows is a brief introduction to the issue. To begin with look at this photo of an existing grid battery array called Desert Sunlight: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Desert_Sunlight_(52290008686).jpg#file
The batteries are teamed with a big solar facility because until recently that was the only way to get the battery subsidies. Each lithium battery unit is the size of a tractor trailer or big shipping container and there are well over a hundred of them, with a rated storage capacity of 230 MW. This is a medium sized storage facility.
That these units can spontaneously burst into flames is well established. The question is how to design and prepare for this destructive event?
To scale the problem consider the following event. A battery powered tractor trailer rig recently crashed and it’s battery burned on an interstate in California. Lithium battery fires cannot be put out so this one burned for around eleven hours. In order to keep the fire from spreading to create a wildfire the fire crew continuously sprayed it using a reported 50,000 gallons of water in the process. The interstate was closed due to the toxic fumes from the fire.
One of these grid scale battery units is easily 10 to 20 times the size of that truck battery. If the water usage required to keep a grid battery fire from spreading scales with size that is 500,000 to a million gallons of water. The actual amount is an engineering calculation that needs to be established and incorporated into battery facility design standards.
Note that we are not talking about the fire spreading to create a wildfire although that is certainly a concern. The vital need is to keep it from igniting the nearby batteries. If this happened the whole facility could go up with a hundred or more giant batteries burning. That would be truly catastrophic.
So now look at the Desert Sunlight photo and note there is no water tank. There should be something like a million gallon water tank with a high volume system to deliver that water to every unit in the facility. Clearly there is not.
There is also the engineering question of how far apart these units should be to enable that water to work keeping the fire from spreading. I doubt the Desert Sunlight spacing is even close to big enough. It looks like just room to walk between them.
Now let’s turn to permitting these facilities where I have another example that speaks volumes. This is a facility that just got permitted by Washington State. It is a combined wind, solar and battery project with a proposed storage capacity of 300 MW, which is considerably bigger than Desert Sunlight. It might have 200 huge lithium battery units. That number is not disclosed.
The project is named the Horse Heaven Wind Farm despite its massive solar and battery components. The name, usually shortened to Horse Heaven, is truly ironic because it will be no place for horses. Horse Hell might be better.
The permitting authority is the Washington Energy Facility Site Evaluation Council or EFSEC for short. The permit is called a Site Certification Agreement or CSA and Horse Heaven just got one, with a big push from the Governor.
The astounding point is that there was no discussion, or even recognition, of the fire threat posed by this enormous lithium battery facility. The CSA has numerous requirements for lots of issues, big and small, right down to the facility having water to keep the road dust down. There is nothing on having a million or so gallons to prevent a catastrophic conflagration, nor on the environmental impact of such.
This is wildfire country so there should be liability insurance for harm to others from a fire. Other potential sources of harm are huge amounts of contaminated water runoff as well as toxic air emissions, especially if the whole facility burns.
This neglect no doubt flows from the Horse Heaven Application. The App is over 500 pages long and I can find just one sentence about battery fires. Buried in a long paragraph on PDF page 366 we read “Lithium-ion battery storage may pose a risk of fire and explosion due to the tendency for lithium-ion batteries to overheat.”
This single sentence does not even refer to the project. For that matter there are only a few paragraphs about the battery facility in the entire App, mostly just describing it in general terms. There is nothing about the number of giant battery containers or that it is a huge project in its own right, posing an equally huge fire threat. In fact the App says they might double deck these container sized battery units which is absurd given the risk of setting off a chain reaction in the whole complex.
One can easily think from the Application that the batteries are of no significance and that appears to be exactly what has happened at the EFSEC.
This systematic neglect looks to be what is happening around the country. We desperately need a national code or standard covering this issue. The National Fire Protection Association says it is working on one, but it is up to the permitting authorities to make something happen.
The growing threat of grid scale battery fires is a very serious issue calling for equally serious action.
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Hi David, Did you mean MWh instead of MW? Makes quite a difference.
No, all they give for both sites is MW as usual so that is what I used for the comparison. Actual storage capacity is likely four times that.
Well, it’s utterly meaningless, then. Why would you say it’s likely 4x that? What’s the reasoning for that?
“there are well over a hundred of them, with a rated storage capacity of 230 MW.”
I have to say that this sentence doesn’t explain if that 230MW for each, or the whole lot, ignoring the incorrect units.
MW is the instantaneous output. V x I and is unrelated to capacity.
Usually I is rated in C (capacity). A 1 A-hr cell can supply 1 A of current.
An endless source of confusion that arises from using hybrid units for electric charge instead of Coulombs.
I agree.
1 A = 1 Q sec
Much like:
1 J = 1 W sec
Yup. Few people understand the units, and I’ve never found a one-pager that explains them clearly enough to recommend.
“ A 1 A-hr cell can supply 1 A of current” … for about an hour.
Correct.
My batteries are 600AH at 48V which coverts to approx 30KWh, so I know I can consume electricity for 30 hours at a rate of 1Kw and then the lights go out. This leaving out the time the rated power lasts for makes the figure meaningless and is typical of all the commercial battery farms in the UK. It must be a deliberate policy so you can’t work out the actual benefit. Much like the ‘Powers 16K homes’ for a wind which assumes 100% power when for onshore wind in UK its actually 16%.
A good description that should help someone think through.voltage/power/capacity.
Dave,
Batteries are rated as MW/MWh, as AC
Batteries can have 1 MWh, 2 MWh, 3 MWh, 4 MWh, etc. of storage
TESLA recommends not charging above 80% and not discharging below 20%, TO ENSURE LESS AGING AND A LIFE OF ABOUT 15 YEARS.
You CAN charge to 100% and discharge to 0%, but that causes a lot of extra wear and tear on the battery.
Here is the cost picture
BATTERY SYSTEM CAPITAL COSTS, OPERATING COSTS, ENERGY LOSSES, AND AGING
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/battery-system-capital-costs-losses-and-aging
EXCERPT:
Annual Cost of Megapack Battery Systems; 2023 pricing
Assume a system rated 45.3 MW/181.9 MWh, and an all-in turnkey cost of $104.5 million, per Example 2
Amortize bank loan for 50% of $104.5 million at 6.5%/y for 15 years, $5.484 million/y
Pay Owner return of 50% of $104.5 million at 10%/y for 15 years, $6.765 million/y (10% due to high inflation)
Lifetime (Bank + Owner) payments 15 x (5.484 + 6.765) = $183.7 million
Assume battery daily usage for 15 years at 10%, and loss factor = 1/(0.9 *0.9)
Battery lifetime output = 15 y x 365 d/y x 181.9 MWh x 0.1, usage x 1000 kWh/MWh = 99,590,250 kWh to HV grid; 122,950,926 kWh from HV grid; 233,606,676 kWh loss
(Bank + Owner) payments, $183.7 million / 99,590,250 kWh = 184.5 c/kWh
Less 50% subsidies (ITC, depreciation in 5 years, deduction of interest on borrowed funds) is 92.3c/kWh
At 10% throughput, (Bank + Owner) cost, 92.3 c/kWh
At 40% throughput, (Bank + Owner) cost, 23.1 c/kWh
.
Excluded costs/kWh: 1) O&M; 2) system aging, 1.5%/y, 3) 20% HV grid-to-HV grid loss, 4) grid extension/reinforcement to connect battery systems, 5) downtime of parts of the system, 6) decommissioning in year 15, i.e., disassembly, reprocessing and storing at hazardous waste sites. Excluded costs would add at least 15 c/kWh
.
COMMENTS ON CALCULATION
Almost all existing battery systems operate at less than 10%, per EIA annual reports i.e., new systems would operate at about 92.4 + 15 = 107.4 c/kWh. They are used to stabilize the grid, i.e., frequency control and counteracting up/down W/S outputs. If 40% throughput, 23.1 + 15 = 38.1 c/kWh
A 4-h battery system costs 38.1 c/kWh of throughput, if operated at a duty factor of 40%. That is on top of the cost/kWh of the electricity taken from the HV grid to feed the batteries
Up to 40% could occur by absorbing midday solar peaks and discharging during late-afternoon/early-evening, which occur every day in California and other sunny states. The more solar systems, the greater the peaks.
See above URL for Megapacks required for a one-day wind lull in New England
40% throughput is close to Tesla’s recommendation of 60% maximum throughput, i.e., not charging above 80% full and not discharging below 20% full, to achieve a 15-y life, with normal aging.
Tesla’s recommendation was not heeded by the Owners of the Hornsdale Power Reserve in Australia. They excessively charged/discharged the system. After a few years, they added Megapacks to offset rapid aging of the original system, and added more Megapacks to increase the rating of the expanded system.
http://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/the-hornsdale-power-reserve-largest-battery-system-in-australia
Regarding any project, the bank and Owner have to be paid, no matter what. I amortized the bank loan and Owner’s investment
Divide total payments over 15 years by the throughput during 15 years, you get c/kWh, as shown.
There is about a 20% round-trip loss, from HV grid to 1) step-down transformer, 2) front-end power electronics, 3) into battery, 4) out of battery, 5) back-end power electronics, 6) step-up transformer, to HV grid, i.e., you draw about 50 units from the HV grid to deliver about 40 units to the HV grid, because of A-to-Z system losses. That gets worse with aging.
A lot of people do not like these c/kWh numbers, because they have been repeatedly told by self-serving folks, battery Nirvana is just around the corner.
California is using 4-hour battery systems to reduce midday solar peaks and use the electricity at late-afternoon/early-evening peak times.
That is UTTERLY UNECONOMIC and therefore stupid.
It does not pass the smell test
It shows up in
1) Skyrocketing electric rates
2) A 400,000 PER YEAR exodus of tax-paying US citizens, which are more than replaced by unvetted, tax-sucking, illiterate, unskilled, third world, illegal walk-ins, from all over the world
That is pretty-boy Newsom’s Hollywood-style insanity on steroids
FEMA has no money for flood victims, because it spent its money coddling illegal walk-ins
Trump needs to win by a landslide so no Pelosi can pester him, to stop a lot of nonsense, and MAGA
Gee, wilpost, how do you really feel?
At 87, I feel fine, but engineer-to- engineer, I rather talk tech
There is another aspect of batteries that has received no coverage, except in a recent Consumer Reports review of EVs. Batteries and battery management systems (got to have those, too) have an acceptance rate – that is, how fast they can charge. It does no one any good if there is grid-scale battery backup to cover frequent night-time lulls in the wind if it then takes 5 days to recharge the batteries (from 20% to 80%, of course).
Therefore, when people talk about the capacity of a battery installation (remembering the 20% and 80% factors), then they should also discus the acceptance rate of the installation.
Yes, rate of charge and discharge should not be high, because it shortens the life of the battery. That should not be a problem with Utilities, etc.
Private folks with EVs are in a hurry. They want to charge fast, get it over with.
I go to a mall to do shopping and after an hour I am in and out, but the EV idiots are still waiting around to get charged up. I just smile at them, as I pass.
Very informative. Thanks.
The issue is, the implementation model is backwards.
The batteries should supply the power with the un-reliables used to recharge the battery. The battery capacity must be of sufficient size to power through when there is no recharging.
You will never stablize a grid powered with un-reliables by adding batteries.
They need to look at cell phones, laptops, hybrid cars, battery powered tools, to get it right.
Will they? Probably not.
We had a fire at the Big Battery near Geelong in 2021. Two out of the 212 megapacks were destroyed, but little other damage was done, and no-one was hurt. The enquiry report is here. A summary:
“On Friday, July 30th, 2021, a single Megapack at VBB caught fire and spread to a neighboring Megapack during the initial installation and commissioning of the Megapacks. The fire did not spread beyond these two Megapacks and they burned themselves out over the course of approximately six hours. There were no injuries to the general public, to site personnel or to emergency first responders as the Megapacks failed safely (i.e., slowly burned themselves out with no explosions or deflagrations), as they are designed to do in the event of a fire. Per the guidance in Tesla’s Lithium-Ion Battery Emergency Response Guide2 (ERG), emergency responders permitted the Megapack to burn and consume itself while nearby exposures were being monitored at a safe distance. The total impact to the site was two out of the 212 Megapacks were fire damaged, or less than 1% of the BESS”
Thanks Nick. How far apart were they? Did they use water to prevent spreading? I found a CA site were they are just 3′ apart and next to I-10.
From the report
It seems pairs are close, but then bigger separations.
They said that they followed Tesla instructions in just letting them burn out. This is designed to happen without major damage in six hours.
no major damage other than a great deal of air pollution- for which, the enviros seem rather quite
Toxins and carcinogens.
Putting water on the fires introduces unwanted chemicals into local land, water, water tables.
Also, there is the possibility that the heat of the fire can dissociate water and release H2 in quantities that burn.
Now think flooding. If they are smart enough to build a hospital in a flood prone area they can do it with this kind of installations too.
So hydrogen fluoride is not a problem?
Good to know.
No one uses the highways in California.
“”little other damage was done””
How much does a megapack cost, Nick? Approximately $1.25 million each
So who pays for all that?
The very profitable VBB. It adds 1% to their costs.
How very disingenuous, Nick. Have your ears gone red?
VBB – CEFC – “Australian Government-owned green bank””
VBB is owned by the French company Neoen. They got a loan from the CEFC.
I’m not in Australia and am certainly no expert on energy costs, but it seems to me that it doesn’t add diddly squat to VBB costs. The costs are added to the consumers who have to pay for it (maybe it’s different down-under).
“Someone else pays” is not the same as “free”.
Megapacks failed safely (i.e., slowly burned themselves out with no explosions or deflagrations), as they are designed to do in the event of a fire.
Interesting definition of failing safety. Better something like
It took a long time to burn itself out and didn’t actually explode. As we couldn’t put it out so we stood and watched until it went out. The supplier said this was OK as putting out a fire in one of their battery packs isn’t easy.
So?
Who paid for the replacements is the maim issue?
Stuff happens. Our Callide C coal station had an explosion in May 2021. It was out of action for three years. Repairs cost $200M. Who paid? Consumers.
And yes, they paid $2.5M for these megapacks.
Yep.
Consumers paid for batteries that they didn’t get any benefits from.
Consumers had had many many decades of benefits from Callide C coal (cheap, reliable electricity supply), and will continue to receive for many decades to come.
The replacement batteries will last what – one decade if that?
Until the next fire.
Until they freeze in winter.
“Lithium battery fires cannot be put out…”
I googled this problem and see: “To put out large lithium-ion battery fires, use a foam extinguisher containing CO2, powder graphite, ABC dry chemical, or sodium carbonate.”
Yes there is a lot of suppressant research. That is another possible design. This is a pressing engineering problem.
It should be theoretically possible for an oxen cart to be pulled by geese. I’m surprised none of the settlers heading west in the 1800’s thought of this. We are so much better at thinking out of the box today.
Why, oh why is there not an automatic analog to the nuclear reactor SCRAM mechanism for Lithium batteries. Just include a capsule in each battery which would melt and spoil the battery’s abilities to discharge and to burn.
Your High School,
Chemistry Teacher
Including a Super Critical Reactor Ax Man (SCRAM) with each battery could be an emergent career for illegal immigrants.
Um, go ahead if you wish, but Lithium battery fires do not need external oxygen.
“for combustion to take place you need oxidizer. One electrode is composed of nearly 50% oxygen atoms (LiCoO2) and this electrode will readily give off that oxygen when heated above certain temps. So what you have is flammable materials combined with a readily available source of oxygen once it gets above certain temps. The Lithium itself isn’t primary culprit but it aggravates the reaction once it gets going.”
Just adding info
Appreciated.
Of course there may be a potentially bigger problem, that is the deliberate sabotage of these facilities, the impact on a country’s or states infrastructure could be significantly worse than 9/11.
I made a similar suggestion about nuclear facilities.
The picture of that solar farm and the batteries had nothing close to the security I would want were I leaving nearby.
deliberate sabotage of these facilities
Remember several years ago when there were a few cases of people shooting at transformers at substations?
What would that do to these?
I believe it falls under, “Read! Aim! Fire!”
Story tip
You may remember the fist electric truck highway in Germany?
https://www.businessinsider.in/germany-opens-first-electric-highway-that-lets-trucks-draw-power-from-overhead-cables/articleshow/69237529.cms
2 others were installed, one in southern Germany.
That project will go as first to an end in reason of security risks.
In case of severe accidents, first aid helos are not able to touch down because of the cables.
Could’n be previewed ?
https://www.tichyseinblick.de/wirtschaft/mobilitaet/e-laster-oberleitungen-murgtal-baden-wuerttemberg-projekt-ende/
Re-inventing the trolleybus.
A trolleybus is an electric bus that draws power from dual overhead wires using spring-loaded trolley poles. Two wires, and two trolley poles, are required to complete the electrical circuit. This differs from a tram or streetcar, which normally uses the track as the return path, needing only one wire and one pole.
First developed in the 1910s and 1920s.
The difference is, the trucks also have batteries that are charged over the wires.
A tram has steel wheels so no other return path is needed.
But that wasn’t the point of my comment.
My point is the tech was used and superceded by petrol and diesel – they don’t need wires or poles.
It’s another backward step.
It’s not that I’m friend of the wired truck, but it’s laughable to read the reason for the stop of the project, a foreseeable risk. These guys promoting such a project are never able to reflect about possible consequences.
Re-inventing seems to be all they have.
Strat’s point stands – the tech was defeated long ago for reasons that have not changed. Weird subsidy interference has German humans on fixed-route railway and German consumer goods on flexible-route highways. They’ll get it fixed. If the fix is smart, the rest of the world will copy.
Risk analysis is hard. (I was a risk manager on a high-technology project during my career.) And it usually involves math, which is also hard.
How many trucks could use the same mile of electric truck highway before it would ‘run out of power’ ?
This is just fear p o r n with no data
Conclusions ALWAYS require data and analysis of data accuracy.
Both are absent here.
Within large-scale lithium-ion battery energy storage systems, there have been 40 known fires in recent years, according to research from Newcastle University, as of mid-2022.
That is proof of a serious problem
In 2021, there were 1,595 energy operational storage projects globally, with 125 projects in construction. Their number is growing, and the batteries are aging. The failure rate is most likely to increase with age and use.
The first large scale US deployment was 145 MW of lithium- ion projects came online in 2015. Few of the installations are very old in 2024
Since there is no climate crisis, no windmills or solar panels are necessary. That means no batteries are necessary. Nut Zero is a complete waste of money with the exception of any new nuclear reactors financed voluntarily by the private sector.
That the battery fire threat exists is well known, as per the Horse Heaven quote, so I moved on to the need for design standards. Thanks for the data. I could do without the pointless insult.
If he hasn’t insulted you he’s ignored you.
I’m Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged, and I approve this message.
You are a Ph.D. and an engineer. It took me only 15 minutes with Google to find the data
There are two stories:
(1) What has gone wrong
and
(2) What could go wrong
(1) is real
(2) is speculation
The most important big picture story:
Why are we doing Nut Zero.
Especially after it was obvious battery fires are a problem (EV battery fires are evidence too) And no electric utility can afford enough battery capacity to back up renewables for even one winter night with no wind.
You trust Google? Wow.
Li ion batteries are entirely, absolutely safe as the figures show.
“The number of fires linked to lithium-ion batteries in the UK increased by 46 per cent in 2023, compared with the previous year, new research from business insurer QBE has shown.
QBE is calling for more education on preventing and safely dealing with fires caused by lithium-ion batteries, noting that they “burn differently from normal fires” and can cause “explosive fire incidents”, which can cause injury and death.”
https://www.britsafe.org/safety-management/2024/fires-caused-by-lithium-ion-batteries-up-46-last-year
All battery fires are evidence grid scale batteries will have fire problems too. But actual grid scale fires are better evidence.
There are many different Lithium Ion chemistries. The one of specific concern is the Lithium Ion Polymer Organic (LiPO).
So it isn’t the batteries that are the hazard, its the poorly-educated users?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0kykv9dwr5o
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fires-in-e-bikes-and-e-scooters/07948b8a-2855-4fd3-b205-b9b2f03b6a7c
It may be 145MW, but what’s the capacity?
Invalid units are invalid.
Correction
145 MW was the TOTAL of all large scale battery projects that began operation in 2015.
Total US battery storage capacity climbed 87.3% year over year to reach a total of 23.775 GW by the end of second quarter 2024, with 5 GW expected to be added in Q3.
My only point was that existing grid scale batteries were not very old and were likely to have more reliability problems as they age.
MWh or GWh are rarely mentioned because they would embarrass the green dreamers.
Richard I read it even with your opening insult.
You add some insight and data to the conversation.
Add to it that many of the LiPO cells and batteries come from China with whatever quality control they enforce, and of course, China does not care what happens in other countries as long is they can continue shipping.
China burns coal to make batteries for us
That makes no sense for us.
There’s a public [lamp-post] charging point next to my abode. I make sure my sensible ice car is a safe distance from it; you simply never know with these things, they don’t have to be old or maltreated.
At least “Desert Sunlight” is in the, er, desert. Things are not quite so safe and straightforward on Airstrip 1. Government (blue and red) wants to put a BESS (Battery Energy Storage System) in Wakefield:
“”Fire chiefs have raised concerns of an explosion risk at a proposed battery storage plant near Wakefield as hundreds of people object to the plans.
Harmony Energy wants to install the system at Heath to capture excess energy created from renewable sources.
West Yorkshire Fire and Rescue Authority (WYFRA) said the risks were “very real and are becoming more common”.
The firm said all battery technology was tested to National Fire Protection Association standards.””
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6pnxd4z611o
And here is the site:
And they say we who would use fossil fuels destroy landscapes.
And in most cases, when they say “health,” they really mean “death.”
when they say “health,” they really mean
You will live your life the way we tell you to. We know best. An appeal to authority.
You will have nothing and you will be happy (happy by decree).
What they need to do is to isolate the batteries with firewalls between each megapack to prevent a fire in one from spreading to others
Those firewalls have to be able to withstand very high temperatures for several hours to several days.
Point 1: Increased cost of the installation.
Point 2: Increased CO2 emitted in the materials fabrications.
Point 3: Increased CO2 emitted in gathering the resources needed to create the materials used.
Rube Goldberg would be impressed.
I think Rube Goldberg designed my garage. Every time I move something in one place, something falls off somewhere else.
Shouldn’t be much of an issue, thermal runaway reaches temperatures of 1300°F while steel furnaces withstand maintained temperatures of up to 2800°F
thermal runaway reaches temperatures of 1300°F
Are we talking about Lithium Ion batteries? If so, it’s more like 5kF
There is a range, with 5K near the top.
They probably will use aluminum. Cheaper and lighter.
No, they need to stop the CCC idiocy. Batteries aren’t needed, since wind turbines and solar panels aren’t needed.
To begin with look at this photo of an existing grid battery array called Desert Sunlight:
#file
********************
In a desert environment, a large amount of water would be needed to keep a fire contained in the batteries were to spontaneously ignite. Water is a precious commodity in the desert. Where exactly would it come from….truck it in?. At least with a gasoline ICE fire, you can put the fire out with conventional firefighting means.
When it comes to wind, solar and battery storage (among other things), I don’t expect politicians to do things that make any sense. In spite of the plentiful sunshine which the desert gets, solar with battery storage is just a very bad idea no matter were they locate it.
All true.
But also ignored is the impact to the desert environment.
Those impacts are on a scale that could be classified as climate change.
I’ve always been a little curious about how the clean those square kilometer arrays of solar panels in the desert. Especially in, say, California where water seems to be in such short supply.
Keeping them clean is a very good issue to bring up, especially after a sandstorm. Don’t know if just brushing them off is a viable substitute for rinsing them off with water. At any rate, they will require frequent attention to keep the dust and sand off of them.
Like I said, when it comes to issues like wind and solar energy with battery storage, I don’t expect the things politicians do to make any sense.
Keeping them clean – green jobs!
Not sure about ‘well-paying’ green jobs, but, hey, Kalifornia has plenty of recent migrants who will, I guess, be very happy to live in a mild desert. Won’t they?
Auto
Leaf blowers?
It seems there is a solution. Is this just hype or what?
This video shows a unique, side-by-side comparison of three fire suppression agents applied to lithium-ion battery fires. You can see the effects of dry powder, foam and F-500 Encapsulator Agent (F-500 EA) on these fires. Third party testing points to one conclusion: F-500 EA is the solution!
Question:
Lithium-ion fires have a habit of reigniting, sometimes hours later.
Was that also tested?
So what? That will happen no matter what they use to suppress them. Then they’ll be put out again. I’m just asking if this method shows promise or not. As far as I can tell it’s better than just moaning about the obvious hell fire these batteries can cause.
“So what?”
Well, it looks promising but the Vimeo clip (Thanks for the Vimeo clip rather than a YouTube clip. Been having trouble viewing YouTube for a month or more.) but the clip is a small fire and comes off as a commercial.
Definitely worth looking into, even for just smaller lithium battery fires or first response to an EV fire.
Grid scale lithium batteries fires to back up for windmills and solar?
Best solution is to eliminate the unreliable to begin with and stick with what works.
“…but the clip is a small fire and comes off as a commercial.” That’s because it is 🙂 Reading at the company’s site offers more information. They say there’s a large nozzle attachment for a regular fire hose that can mix the agent with water for bigger fires. Agree with your “best solution” but that won’t happen until/unless more life and property are lost or they start using less volatile (but less energy density) components. Kind of like believing in AGW.
You can “suppress” the fires to your heart’s content, but they will not stop re-igniting until the fuel in the batteries is consumed and a lot of that produces toxic gasses.
“using a reported 50,000 gallons of water”
For comparison, a fully-involved house fire for an average 3 bedroom house takes about 10,000 gallons.
230 MW battery – assuming it is the power output rating I x V, where I is assumed to be 1C (1C is the base capacity in A-Hr).
Assuming individual cells of 37 V and 20 AHr
[Largest cell, data from batterylipo.com]
Each cell has a maximum output of 740 W
230 MW battery is 310,810 of those max sized cells.
Assuming a cell failure rate of 5 ppb (parts per billion) over an unspecified time interval, the battery park has a failure rate of a tad over 0.16%.
Research Gate estimates the MTBF of a LiPO cell is 4.25 years.
What this means is in 4.25 years, 0.16% of the 310.810 cells in that battery park have a 50% chance of failure. Conservatively estimating that some 300 will fail “spectacularly” in the first 4 years.
Is there going to be any place on this planet safe from LiPO fires?
Yes, the desert. 🙂
Except the toxic gases are air born.
What is the chemistry being used in these large batteries? Straight Li ion or a LiFePO4 or something else? The risk of fire is considerably lower (but not zero) with the LiFePO4 batteries.
Lithium Ion Polymer Organic (LiPO) is the notorious fire danger. LiFePO4 has lower energy density.
Apparently some reclassification has been done and now Lithium Ion applies only to rechargeable (secondary) chemistries. It was different in the early 1980s when I first atarted studying electro-chemical energy cells.
This was in late July, and I was caught in the “”traffic apocalypse from hell” on Interstate 15 in the Mojave Desert. Within the last two weeks there was another semi wreck in SoCal, a big rig with batteries caught fire while driving out of Terminal Island in Los Angeles, they had to close the big bridge that connects Long Beach and San Pedro.
The mean time between lithium battery transport fires seems to be about 2 months.
karlomonte,
I’m sorry you were stuck on the 15 owing to that fire. There are, of course, so many other traffic jams on that strecth of the 15!. The fire on the 15, and the one on Terminal Island, were 2 of three in the last 2 months, according to stories on KNX, so the MTBF is less than 2 months, at least here in sunny Southern California.
We are going eastbound, passed through Baker about 4 hours after they closed the interstate—no one knew it was closed, not even the truckers who blindly drove into the mess like everyone else. California has no way to notify people about road conditions.
The people going westbound had it really bad, first there was the snarl on I-15, then there was the 50-mile snarl on the I-40 detour. Apparently there were cars still out there the next day, including Teslas that had run out of charge.
s/are/were/
Is it safe to assume a tractor trailer or big shipping container sized battery is Lithium, or are there other technologies? Do the other technologies also present fire hazards?
In each case, the reports stated that they were lithium ion batteries, with no further information on the actual chemistry. I expect that the forthcoming accident reports will provide that information.
Would any wind, solar or battery instillations exist without massive ratepayer and taxpayer subsidies? How much battery storage (in GWh) would be required to back up even a small municipal electric system during recurring wind and solar droughts?
The days of free FF backup for unreliables are ending because bulk electric system providers are having to pay significant amounts for FF capacity backup. With use limited to periods of unreliables’ shortfalls and their insane Leftist government-mandated priority access to electric systems (no matter their true costs compared to inexpensive FFs), FF backup systems have costly limited capacity factors.
luckily there are plenty of alternatives and people keep working on the issue. See
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/09/grid-scale-batteries-theyre-not-just-lithium/
Someone said: “You know who tried that… Germany. No wind for seven days… uh, their factories are shutting down.”
And what is the Technology Readiness Level of those concept, viv a vis the Net Zero deadlines?
proposed storage capacity of 300 MW,
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I expect it has already been pointed out that you can’t store power.
300 MW is 400K HP. A battery that stores 400KHP for only 1 pico second is much different than a battery that can store 400KHP for a day or a year.
And how quickly can it recharge?
Lithium is extremely light weight so it makes sense in car batteries.
It is extremely stupid to use lithium in grid scale batteries, where weight is not an issue.
A container truck loaded with lithium ion batteries tipped over just outside the port of Long Beach recently. The police closed off the roads and the fire department monitored the fire while they let it burn out. It finally died out, and crews were able to remove the container, after 31 hours. During the incident, ~200 dockworkers were evacuated from the port. Radio stories pointed out that this was the third truck full of batteries that had caught fire in 2 months in Southern California.
Not fit for service.
Lithium batteries are optimized for capacity vs weight. Grid scale batteries need to be optimized for safety and cycle life.
You might get 8 years out of a lithium grid battery if nothing goes wrong. But the odds are against you because there will be a temptation to exceed the limits during times of heavy mismatch between supply and demand.
Grid scale batteries should be non-toxic, cheap, big, heavy, and indestructible with 50 year lifetimes to allow reasonable capital cost recovery.
They also need not only to survive, but operate in the cold. There are places where the temperature drops below 0C and even -20C in winter.
Imagine installing transmission lines, transformers, power stations that needed to be replaced every 10 years.
Regarding the Horse Heaven Project. There was significant and extensive public and intervenor comment to the State siting council about lithium-ion battery fires and the fire danger. They just chose to ignore inconvenient facts with their decision.
Wind solar and storage are a disaster, Individuals need to be held accountable for any mishap or damage.
Battery energy storage (MWh) is more important than installed power capacity (MW).
MWHr ties it to output voltage.
With inverter technology that is less necessary.
I grew up on A-hr (amp hours) for defining battery capacity.