From NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT
By Paul Homewood
It did not take a genius to work out that EU tariffs on Chinese EVs would quickly turn into a full scale trade war
.
Few industries are as susceptible to the shifting sands of international policy on trade and protectionism as the automotive sector. And never more so than now with the transition to electric vehicles (EVs).
In leading from the front in their determination to phase out the internal combustion engine (ICE), policymakers in both Britain and Europe have got themselves into the most terrible mess.
Home-grown manufacturers have been left woefully uncompetitive against rampant Chinese competition, with hundreds of thousands of relatively well-paid jobs in Europe’s industrial heartlands now at high risk of redundancy.
Across the sector, vehicle manufacturers are warning of plunging profits, factory closures and job losses; a perfect storm of negatives is about to break, and one which with their lofty net-zero ambitions is almost entirely of the politicians’ own making.
For the Government, two related issues have come racing into view. Ministers might even find time to address them if they could for just a moment stop running around like headless chickens spouting platitudes on how terrible their economic inheritance is.
One is whether to follow the US and Europe into imposing swingeing tariffs on Chinese EV manufacturers before they entirely wipe out the Continent’s own legacy automotive companies.
And second, whether to persist with punishing mandates that the industry hasn’t a prayer of meeting for phasing out petrol and diesel vehicles and replacing them with shiny new all-electric alternatives.
Both on price and quality, European car manufacturers are streets behind their upstart Chinese competitors on EVs, yet the EU plans to go all electric by 2035 and is committed to heavy fines against companies that don’t meet thresholds for phasing out ICE models in the meantime.
Imposing tariffs might theoretically give Volkswagen, Stellantis and their like time to play catch up. That they ever will is obviously open to question, but regardless the European Commission has moved ahead with protections including provisional additional tariffs on Chinese producers ranging from 17pc for BYD to 36.4pc for SAIC.
Exquisitely, the level of punishment is linked to the degree of cooperation shown in the EU’s preceding nine-month anti-dumping investigation.
As on virtually everything of importance, Europe is furiously divided over the matter. Retaliatory action against EU member countries with big export markets in China is a certainty. A full-scale trade war, with damaging consequences for industries completely unrelated to autos, is threatened.
Things were due to come to a head this week, when EU member states were scheduled to decide, using qualified majority voting, on whether to make the new tariffs permanent.
At the time of writing, it didn’t look as if those opposed to the tariffs – which included Germany, Hungary and Spain – had sufficient support to be able to block them. Attempts to reach a negotiated settlement with China involving voluntary quotas also seemed to have stalled.
Barring a last-minute deal – or alternatively one of Europe’s major economies changing its mind – it seems likely that the tariffs will take formal effect, leaving the UK with the awkward choice of whether to follow suit.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/09/25/should-be-welcoming-chinas-ev-manufacturers
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
The true outcome for Nut Zero is the creation of an industrial wasteland in Europe and a dominant Chinese Industry leaving Europe as a Tourist destination for viewing old buildings.
To be competitive you need to match energy costs not increase them so all your industry goes elsewhere. Tariff’s will only help temporarily.
A retirement home for tour guides and waiters as well.
Photovoltaic and wind power made electricity prices 40% lower in the first half of the year in Spain
https://www.evwind.es/2024/09/04/photovoltaic-and-wind-power-made-electricity-prices-40-lower-in-the-first-half-of-the-year-in-spain/100663
Renewables Could Cut EU Power Prices in Half by 2030, Report Predicts
https://www.theenergymix.com/renewables-could-cut-eu-power-prices-in-half-by-2030-report-predicts/
roflmao.
Yes we can see the effect of too much unreliable supply on Spain’s electricity prices.
Wind and solar can only ever INCREASE electricity prices.
That is PROVEN in every country that have more than a tiny penetration.
Germany, Denmark, etc etc
That is PROVEN in every country
proven?
that word dos not mean what you thik it does
ipse dixit! (got that from another commenter in the previous article)
You do realise the first article is just another “what if” load of junk economics, don’t you.
If they had invested in reliable electricity supplies, the cost would be FAR LESS because they would have to pay for maintenance and running of the reliables for when wind and solar FAIL…. as the regularly do.
And overall those wind and solar assets (used extremely loosely) need replacement 3-5 times over the lifetime of conventional generation sources…more in the case of solar as bad weather tends to damage the panels
needs citation.
ffs my freshmen students learned to provide citations for xtreme claims
go look
solar assets (used extremely loosely) need replacement 3-5 times over the lifetime of conventional generation sources
coal plant averag liftime is 50 years.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12618-3/figures/3
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=50658
but new fuel has to be purchased constantly, !!!!
42% of coal plants currently operate at a loss
solar panel lifetime is 30+ years
New fuel does require purchasing true. However, solar panels require replacement after a large hail events destroy them and hail events could occur annually in certain areas
https://powerthefuture.com/thousands-of-texas-solar-panels-destroyed-by-hail-highlighting-the-ineffectiveness-of-green-energy/
https://joannenova.com.au/2023/06/5-megawatt-solar-plant-destroyed-by-hail/
In many cases coal plants.can last between 50-60 years in the US
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12618-3
Forget about thirty years it’s more like storm to storm and their fuel, though it might be free, is only available at peak efficiency 4 hours a day from 10am until 2pm (build-up and rundown from 9am until 4pm)
Coal produces electricity 24/7 solar…nnnnnot so much
Not only hail storms but strong winds can strip panels, hurricanes can decimate subsidy farms, also yearly events.
Bullshit, mosh.
It’s supposed to be 30 but practical applications indicate more like 15-20 at best for more than 70% of panels manufactured in China
“”The escalation of prices in Spain’s wholesale electricity market, which sets the amount companies supplying households pay, has set five consecutive record highs this week and is having an impact on domestic consumption. On Thursday, the minister for Ecological Transition, Teresa Ribera, admitted there is little the Spanish government can do “”
https://english.elpais.com/economy-and-business/2021-08-13/keys-to-understanding-the-rising-cost-of-electricity-in-spain.html
Facts easily counter any number of your coulds, mights, may, possibly etc etc
Nice link to show gas is again at fault for high prices. Thanks for proving my point.
Gas in the UK needs only to be tapped.
It’s there and it means no imports….
Thanks for revealing your ignorance on the matter.
Yes, the idiocy of nations that don’t rely on their own natural resources place their costs firmly in the hands of other, potentially less friendly nations like Russia or China
No, little monkey.. The prices go up because they closed down what COAL they had and now have to keep gas generating capacity available for when wind and solar don’t supply.
If you had even the slightest brain in your head you would realise that keeping a supply option on stand-by is always going to mean the cost has to be high when it is used.
Wow! “News” from a magazine supporting wind energy and a second from a climate activist outfit. Only someone like you could actually believe them. In fact, the intermittency of wind and solar impose large costs on the grid that are not included in the “low price” liturgy. The grid is a complex machine. You need to consider all of the parts before believing such claims. Reporters should also, but they don’t either, probably ’cause its so much easier that way.
And it fits into their Leftist/Climate-disaster ideological narratives.
Lusername knows it’s spreading absurd lies. Don’t give it the benefit of the doubt. Liars gonna lie.
Lusername knows that there are long periods when there is neither sunshine nor adequate wind. Lusername knows that there is no affordable way to store energy for even a tiny fraction of the time that would be needed to be able to eliminate fossil fuels.
Lusername knows that it’s lying. Mock it and move on.
I’m not the one telling the lies, but you will see this yourself in the coming years. Maybe you’ll think of me. 🙂
Not likely.
Sure you’ll be thought of in coming years, in terms of tar and feathers.
Yoiu told me that you don’t make predictions.
PV and Wind power made electricity prices double in California from 17 – 26¢/KWh in 2008 to 36 – 56¢/KWh in 2023
There may have been other factors
Well there is the fact that it’s California!!!
Put down cash for your very own Chinese battery car yet?
EV = money to burn, literally
Does this story rhyme with the 1980s stories about Japan?
Propaganda rags.
Well said.
I have long thought that Europe is well on its way to becoming a large nursing home with many, scattered, very nice museums.
It finally happened….a Chinese EV sold in Australia electrocuted its owner when he tried to disconnect while it was charging….seems Chinese design did not have safety built in.
EVs will wipe out ICEs with or without mandates. But legacy car makers thought they can just use tariffs and PR campaigns to keep competition out instead of investing in R&D. Now the great whining begins.
No surprise here.
A weakened car lobby may at least shift the modal split in europe to public transport, walking and cycling in the coming years, and undo a lot of damage done to infrastructure in the 70s.
You and Simon are dumber than a box of rocks.
I think you just insulted the box of rocks.
DDDDEEEERRRRRGGGGG!!!!!!!
You know, when I hear your name I hear bagpipes. Loud, tuneless and bleating. Nothing personal.
You always hear bagpipe.. its the wind blowing through your cranium.
Making ghastly loud, tuneless and bleating noises because of the emptymess in there.
Find that pee pee tape. Until you do…you will always be the moron on this site.
Find where I said the pee tape was real till then you are just another Maga moron who makes stuff up.
You are a clown indeed. Find the pee pee tape and you will find your Russia colluuuusion.
you are that stupid
So I call your lie out and you got nothing. What a weak coward you are.
Where are all the nuclear and coal fired power plants to run the EV’s going to come from ???
Or do you think they run on unicorn farts.
Investing in R&D is good, but having electricity costs far higher than China isn’t a way to compete with that nation.
Only the government can “wipe out” (NEW) ICE cars. After which we’ll just come to resemble Cuba as we keep old ICE cars going for decades.
Or start living like the Amish.
Because you seem to forget they are destroying the electric grid at the same time they are mandating electric for transport, heat, cooking, etc.
EVs will be nothing but lawn ornaments if the Eco-Nazis achieve their EV mandate goals.
OK. Remove all subsidies, scrap all compulsion, & impose equivalent tax-raising on EVs to the fuel taxes on ICEs, and then let the market decide.
I think thr market might choose ICE made in China or whoever makes them least expensively.
Wind up #94
Haven’t you got anything original?
“Wind up #94″
He/She/It hasn’t thrown a strike yet.
“EVs will wipe out ICEs with or without mandates. ”
What are you Using ??
On that you are correct. All the ICV need do is drive near or park next to an EV when their batteries decide to immolate…explosively!
The US Commerce Department has recently proposed banning key Chinese software and hardware in connected vehicles on US roads because of national security reasons. If they do so virtually all Chinese EVs will be barred from entering the US.
Should this go ahead expect other countries to follow suit
EV’S will never become more than a niche mkt- – for those with lots of money and short commutes- –
And golfers and transports inside airport terminals and at resorts.
Once again, do not feed the trolls.
Mock it and move on!
Not going to kill innocent electrons doing that. A waste of energy.
MAGA
As you aren’t mentally capable enough to have a licence, and know absolutely nothing about cars…
… you are, as usual, talking from absolute ignorance.
I did not know swingeing was a word. Always good to learn a new one, though it doesn’t feel like it packs the literary punch one needs to include in everyday use for effect.
I’m not sure what purpose tariffs serve when the auto industry itself is being chased out of EU countries. They can’t even come close to competing on labor costs and energy costs. Add in the subsidy-mining and the fact that most people simply would not go with an EV if they had a choice, and this seems like a pointless discussion.
China has won, because they don’t care about computer models programmed to predict Armageddon. The EU is well on its way to becoming a vassal state. The US will follow if it doesn’t stop electing idiots.
China wins because they invested in PV, Wind and EVs, while the west clings to soon obsolete technologies because the obscene profits of a few rich people are in danger. At least now we try to catch-up. So maybe we can get a headstart in the coming Perowskit market – if we can solve the degration problems faster.
That must be why China is investing heavily in Nuclear. 😉
Look how much more they invest in renewables in comparison.
Nuclear Continues To Lag Far Behind Renewables In China Deployments
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/01/12/nuclear-continues-to-lag-far-behind-renewables-in-china-deployments/
Yes but compare their investment in coal-powered power stations with their investments in renewables.
Have you ever thought why so many goods purchased in the West are made in China? Don’t tell me it’s just because they invest more.
You mean the more than 80% decline in new projects compared to the previous year? Or the declining capacity factor of existing plants? And that’s the country building 95% of new plants. The age of Coal-fired plants is slowly coming to an end.
If projects are really declining, why is China importing so much Coal?
Think about timeframes and delays, maybe you will find out yourself. And even if not, post the chart updated for 2028 and you may get it by then.
It’s 2024. Forecasts are not reality. Back here in realityland, 2023 was a record year for coal imports for China. Care to bet if that goes down in 2024? I’m guessing not. But yeah, China is our partner in the green energy transition…they profit while we commit suicide, thanks to idiots like you.
I guess that Lusername serves some purpose after all. It elicits plenty of obvious rebuttals that demonstrate that everything Lusername says is the opposite of reality.
When Luser is totally trounced by actual data…
… tries to go down the fantasy prediction route.
… and falls flat on its face, as usual.
I’m talking about current developments, you talk about the past. This way we’ll never understand each other.
Got a chart updated for 2028? My Wayforward machine is on the fritz and Peabodies is only a Wayback machine
Ho, ho. You said you don’t do predictions.
Once again!
According to the Energy Institute’s ‘Statistical Review of World Energy 2024’
“In 2023 global coal production reached its highest ever level beating the previous high set in 2022”.
The Asia Pacific region accounted for “nearly 80% of global activity with Australia, China, India and Indonesia” responsible for “97% of the regions output”….. China alone was responsible for over half of total production and “Global coal consumption was over 164EJ for the first time ever” and the growth rate in 2023 “was 7 times higher than the previous ten year average growth rate”
China was responsible for “56% of coal consumption in 2023” whilst “India exceeded the combined consumption of Europe and North America for the first time”
“The age of Coal-fired plants is slowly coming to an end.”
ROFLMAO..
Are you aiming to show that you are the most ignorant twit in the world??
China’s new coal fired plants will still be operating in 50-60 years time.
Not one single currently operating solar or wind farm will exist except as scrap in the environment.
Tell that to the Indians.
The little child refuses to admit to itself that EVERY aspect of its puerile worthless existence, is there because of fossil fuels.
It want to destroy the very thing that provides everything in its life.
Such self-hatred.. or is it just pure ignorance.
Wind and solar lag behind COAL and GAS, by a LONG WAY in China.
A pibbling nuisance on the grid, at best.
Big difference. The nuclear provides 24/7 power.
The renewables are a show to keep “western” nations running their economies off a cliff.
The vast majority of China’s electricity comes from COAL. As do the windmills and solar panels (with an assist from OIL), for that matter.
Yep coal provided 70% of China’s electricity in 2023 compared to wind 9% and solar 3%
At the end of 2023 China had 1390GW of coal capacity.Wind 441GW and Solar 609GW.
Total 1050GW of unreliables produced only 12% of China’s electricity and solar with almost 21% of installed capacity managed just 3% of electricity production. (A lot of solar sits idle but looks good in the yearly plan and certainly seems to impress some people!)
They “invest” in renewables only to sell them to naïve western leftists. Their actual generation capacity increase is coming from coal and nuclear.
And COAL.
And coal, which provides 62% of their electricity now and increasing.
China coal is increasing at TWICE the rate of wind or solar, barely uses any solar or wind at all.
The obscene profits are being made by the wind and solar subsidy scammers.
You don’t imagine that Lusername will acknowledge any of these facts do you? Liars gotta lie.
Lusername is not ignorant. Lusername is fully aware that it is lying.
The facts are put forward that so the non-posters get the truth.
Everybody show be shown that Luser will always be deliberately ignorant with zero grasp on reality..
Obsolete? Because you say so?
“while the west clings to soon obsolete technologies because the obscene profits of a few rich people are in danger”
Very revealing. So naturally you oppose subsidy-farming owners of windfarms and solar farms.
Poor dunderhead has yet to grasp the meaning of cognitive dissonance.
Nah, I see enough of that around here 😛
No you don’t.
Everybody is out of step except you, eh?
Time to get a check-up.
“I see enough of that around here”
So you do actually read your own posts…
.. the very picture of cognitive non-functionality.
I thought they were just random brain farts from a very juvenile mind, totally disconnected from reality.
I would disagree,MUN is the victim of the illusory truth effect and relies upon subjective validation. In other words he thinks he’s right and because he thinks he’s right he is right even though he’s full of excrement. The proof being his eyes are brown and if they are not then he’s down a quart.
China invested in reliable back-up (aka Coal) MWh/MWh for every MWh of wind and solar installed. China’s costs overall are cheap because they’re communist and pay the proles little. They also make use of forced slave labor to reduce overhead.
China’s EVs are also exploding at a rate of 43,000 per year. Poor cheap copies of technology that’s already been tried and failed.
Back at the turn of the century ICVs EVs and Steamers were competing for market share. ICVs won as the better technology. Were then and still are today. Today’s EVs are little improved from the 1900s.
High cost, low top speed, and short range issues of BEVs, compared to ICVs killed them in the early 1900s and still plague the producers today. At least they kinda fixed the top speed issue though many of the Chinese EVs still have smaller motors with speeds limited to 24mph and range limits of around 25 miles
ICVs are still the better technology!
You mean exploding to a 43% market share.
Maybe it’s time to update your knowledge, we left the 50s some days ago. If you are brave enough you can google the BYD seagul – even the cheapest cars are beyond your 24mph / 25 miles ..creative writing exercise.
Top 10 fastest cars in the world in 2024
https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/fastest-cars-in-the-world
May surprise you
I too can Google
I too can Google
I too can Google
I too can Google
Google me the recipe for gulyásleves
Why in the world would I need to Google that?
My mom made the best goulash
Your granny may already have it..
… you certainly couldn’t or wouldn’t make it for yourself.
In short,
They can’t tow and retain range over ICV
They can’t recharge in below zero weather
They’re costly at servicing especially tires
They’re prone to battery explosions, especially the Chinese models.
They cost $10,000-$60,000 more than ICE equivalent.
No I mean the more than 43,000 EV fires in China since Sept 2023
Hey.. the luser accidently got the “exploding” part right !!
Top 10 list only has one electric car (5) and one V12 ICE with electric assist on acceleration (10).
The BDY Seagull…
Looks like they do great burnouts!
your assumption is true- – -IF- -IF the new technology is truly new AND is an improvement over current technology- – -and EV’S are NOT a tecnology improvement- –
Now… where is that info regarding how many coal plants are endlessly being built in China?
Merriam Webster dictionary says that ‘swingeing’ is ‘chiefly British’. Maybe why that’s why you are unfamiliar with the word. Always good to have words crossing the Atlantic in a westerly direction. Far too many come in the other direction.
We had to pay you back for that ugly multisyllabic ‘copacetic’
What’s wrong with sanguine?
They have two entirely different meanings … that’s what is wrong.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/swingeing
😉
In the US we don’t elect idiots, we shoot and kill competent leadership and install fools who are fronts for the kleptocrats.
When politicians seduce you with subsidies you know you have already been taken for a ride.
The postman has just delivered a leaflet from Scottish Power. It’s called ‘Preparing for a power cut’. One section in the leaflet is headed, “Emergency power cuts due to electricity demand shortages”. We have been warned.
I don’t think “demand shortages” are the issue.
The issue is “SUPPLY SHORTAGES.”
Brought to you by…”renewable energy.”
Got mine 3 days ago, third year in a row. It really is a lottery now each winter with the odds getting shorter every year. Got the wood burning stoves, propane gas hob, generator and 30kwh battery ready for the inevitable. Trouble is its needs power cuts to happen so to stop the madness so they need to come sooner or we will have gone too far.
Phraseology is fascinating.
The proper translation is electricity shortages due to demand.
The EU is a real basket case, split between former communist Ost and the crumpled Ovest. The level of self-loathing in Brussels (and London) is right off the scale these days…
“”Performing whiteness: Central and Eastern European young people’s experiences of xenophobia and racialisation in the UK post-Brexit””
Drawing on insights from emergent theories of racialisation and whiteness..
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/361388575_Performing_whiteness_Central_and_Eastern_European_young_people%27s_experiences_of_xenophobia_and_racialisation_in_the_UK_post-Brexit
In some sort of sympathy with the EU arch anti-Brexit (and she did her very best to snuff it out) former PM Theresa – the Vicar’s daughter – May made an hilarious intervention. Forget the obvious and overt politicisation of science for decades now to a narrative driven end, and listen instead to Mother Theresa:
“”Far-right leaders in Europe and the US are trying to wreck measures to save the planet, Theresa May warns. They want to ‘stir up a culture war’ to win votes, says the former PM, who criticises Trump for calling climate change ‘a hoax’ – and accuses Nigel Farage of ‘politicising’ the issue.””
https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/climate-100/theresa-may-donald-trump-nigel-farage-climate-change-denial-hoax-b2618874.html
She, no… most Tories, nay all Tories are in the wrong party. They really do belong to the Labour cause.
“”She made a passionate appeal for leaders to take the climate crisis seriously, not just to save the planet but also for the sake of humanity. She raged against “those who pit ‘the people’ against an out-of-touch elite”, accusing them of using the climate change debate “to fight a culture war”.
Farage finds himself in a unique position AND he buys his own suits.
On Chinese EVs… we have a seat in the Etihad box to watch.
Given that the entire concept of ‘Net-Zero’ has been shown consistently to be both unneeded and also unworkable how can it be that politicians STILL persist with such a waste of money and the consequent loss of funding for all sorts of beneficial programmes.
Thursday Funny
“”To prove he’s already making successful investment progress the government ‘announced‘ that Starmer has secured a £10 billion deal for US investment company Blackstone to build the biggest AI data centre in Europe over in Blyth. Keir gushed: “New investment such as the one we’ve announced with Blackstone today is a huge vote of confidence in the UK and it proves that Britain is back as a major player on the global stage and we’re open for business.” Sounds impressive, until you realise Starmer is ‘announcing’ six month-old news…
The deal was signed off and publicised widely months before the election on 15th April before getting fully confirmed a few weeks later. “”
https://order-order.com/2024/09/26/starmer-secures-investment-deal-signed-six-months-before-election/
Our [dear] leader is an habitual liar.
How are they going to turn it on?
I hope he is going to insist that it builds it’s own power supply 🙂
Rolls Royce do nice SMRs …
Auto
If we don’t cave in and allow China to destroy our domestic industry we will get no scraps from their table in their new world order is not much of an argument. I would rather be poor and free than rich and a Chinese slave.
Question: Will you be rich as a Chinese slave?
You can’t get rich building luxury widgets if nobody buys luxury widgets.
The ones who sold us into slavery will be rich. The rest of us will envy the poorest peasants in China
“in their determination to phase out the internal combustion engine (ICE), policymakers in both Britain and Europe have got themselves into the most terrible mess.”
The crappiness of electric cars is coincidental here. People in wealthy Western democracies are too expensive for building cars that can be built by people in poor Southern dictatorships.
swinge·ing /ˈswinjiNG/
adjective British
severe or otherwise extreme.
swingeing tariffs
jesus you guys are as dumb as Trump.
as someone who exported millions of $ of goods out of china
let me explain how you deal with us tariffs.
and us governmet and chinse business benefitted
now you could of course figur ou how to compete with BYD, but you lack the imgaination and intellegence
How to compete with BYD…make a better product. The 1913 Ford T should suffice.
cohere much mosh?
ofTurkeyfshoring
Been listening to Biden too much.
Once again really bad government in action. Remove all government mandates to get back on the road to prosperity. The only thing standing in the way is really bad government.
I had to look up “swingeing”… thanks for the new word.
I thought Tarzan was coming back.
It’s not hundreds of thousands of jobs in Europe at risk here, you are out by two orders of magnitude.
The EU report “The Future of European Competitiveness” has the total number of jobs in the motor vehicle sector at 14 million, 70% of which are expected to be lost by 2035.