A Nuanced Argument for The Benefits of Global Warming

Kyle Schutter

For an audio discussion of the pros/cons of global warming, listen to this podcast with Kyle, Partner @Grant&Co fundraising consultant in Africa, and Amo Rebecca, Behavioral Scientist.

Day_After_tomorrow_of_snow_covered_statue of liberty Midjourney

People often ask me, “Do you believe in global warming?” as if it’s a religion. But “belief” is not how reality works. More useful questions could be: What’s the probability that the

  1. climate is changing?
  2. change is bad?
  3. change is worse than the alternative?

It’s worth thinking about to see if we understand the world properly. I researched this topic for strategic reasons for our business—is climate something we want to invest in? Anyone who has a more accurate prediction of the future has an advantage.

The discussion of climate has become muddied due to conflicts of interest. We can’t trust the coal miner or the conservative politician when they say “Global warming is a non-issue,” nor can we trust the left-wing or solar startup that global warming is the biggest threat to humanity.

“You cannot get a man to understand something that his salary depends upon him not understanding.”

Meanwhile, we sit somewhere in the middle: environmentalists in the traditional sense and we do raise funding from climate-related groups.

Is the climate changing?

Climate activists say 99% of scientists agree that the climate is warming and humans are responsible for it. But that disguises the consensus. Are all of those scientists 100% convinced? Or are they 51% convinced? If they are truly 100% convinced, then I’ll happily make a 100:0 bet with them as I would have no downside. No one so far has taken me up on this offer.

Is it bad?

The Dutch have built dykes since the 1300s. 40% of the Netherlands was reclaimed from the sea, and even today, some of their land is still as much as 7 meters below sea level. Can we, with 21st-century technology, also build dykes to protect land that is 1 meter below sea level?

But, people say, what about places like Africa, which are most affected? Yes, but a well and irrigation would make people resilient to decreased or unreliable rains. These are known, albeit costly, solutions, and thus, it wouldn’t be the end of the world.

We can handle the immediate effects of a warmer climate, but, people argue, global warming can spiral out of control: the warm weather melts more ice, less ice means less sunlight reflected and a positive feedback loop that makes the planet warmer ad infinitum until the whole planet is drier than the Sahara.

But there are also negative feedback loops; more carbon dioxide and warmer weather means more plant growth. Plants sequester carbon and reduce temperatures. In fact, the world has become greener over the last few decades with increased forestation in Europe, North America and China, and more greening (think tree crops+forest) in Brazil and Southeast Asia.

Forests in China, Scotland, France, Costa Rica and the US bounced back. Brazil, Peru, and DRC forests are still in steep decline. The world’s net forest cover is in decline, but the decline is slowing with every decade; at this rate, there will be a net increasing forest cover by 2050.

So climate change is possibly neutral to possibly very bad. But good and bad don’t exist in isolation. There are pros and cons of every choice…

Was there a better alternative?

We did pump a lot of carbon into the atmosphere, but carbon-based fuels have saved billions of lives in the last 2 centuries through advances in medicine and sanitation, not to mention improved quality of life for billions more. There wasn’t a viable alternative to carbon-based fuels to have saved those lives at that time. So would we rather have a 1-3°C temperature increase or 1-5 billion dead?

People often say climate change could kill millions of people. But what if it’s more complicated than that. What if modern technology, made possible by fossil fuels, saves millions of people. Just look at the data.

It’s almost as if the same thing that increases CO2 levels also decreases climate disasters. Based on 1920s Climate-related Death Rate of ~0.25% and considering there are 8b people on earth now, 20m people each year are saved compared to 1920s levels. EM-DAT, CRED / UCLouvain (2023)

This is not just a question of the past—billions still remain in energy poverty. Is it fair to prevent them from saving perhaps a billion more lives?

Let’s look at the environmental alternative. Is global warming better than global cooling? This is not an idle remark. In the 1950s, climate scientists noticed there was global cooling. In fact, due to the predictable changes in the earth’s orbit and axis of rotation, we can (very roughly) predict when we would possibly have had an ice age. The period of ice ages is about 21,000 years. The last ice age started about 21,000 years ago. Did we just narrowly miss having another ice age? We can never know for sure. But would we rather have 1-3°C warming than an ice age where the average global temperature dropped by 14°C and glaciers came all the way down to New York?

I just read Why the West Rules…For Now, detailing human development from 14,000BCE to present and a shocking number of times civilization collapsed right as we had a mini ice age. A worthwhile read.

Maybe we don’t want the world to get 1-3°C warmer. But we definitely don’t want it to get 14°C colder. If we could modulate the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere to stay somewhere around what we have now AND relieve energy poverty around the world, that would be great. If only there was a way to maintain our current lifestyle AND carbon dioxide concentration…

When will we get this magical zero-carbon energy?

We already have it! Nuclear power is abundant, reliable, safe and cheap (if the government just allows a plant to be built). Climate change is a solved problem (technically). Politically, there are still roadblocks. But politics is just made up of people like you and me. If you say let’s use nuclear and I do too and a billion other people do, then we could maintain slightly elevated levels of carbon dioxide to stave off an ice age. I have little sympathy for environmentalists against nuclear power; We can have our cake and eat it, too. At COP28, 22 countries committed to increasing Nuclear Power 3x by 2050.

What should we actually worry about?

I’m concerned that by 2100, we will have moved from a Military-Industrial Complex to a Carbon-Industrial Complex; we will have created an entrenched group of lobbyists and special interests that incentivize removing carbon from the atmosphere even though doing so is no longer needed. This could create a bullwhip effect that overcompensates and pushes us back towards too little carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, causing low plant growth and another ice age. I have not heard anyone talk about a Carbon-Industrial Complex before, and hopefully, people a century from now will laugh at my wrong-headed theory. But maybe not… History rhymes—if there’s one thing I’m 100% sure of, it’s that humans have proven repeatedly successful at overcompensating.

Closer to home than 2100, consider the parable of the Baptists and the Bootleggers. The religious baptists wanted to ban alcohol in the US in the 1910s to 1920s. Who could blame them? Less alcohol abuse seems like a good thing. But whenever there is someone with good intentions there is someone else who hides under good intentions. Who else wanted alcohol to be banned? The bootleggers! Originally environmentalists had good intentions. Hell, I’m an environmentalist who previously ran a biogas company and attempts permaculture farming when I can. But then the “bootleggers” (*ahem* power-hungry statists) saw the opportunity to centralize power by applying a moral purity test under the guise of environmentalism. It’s too soon to really sort out who are baptists and who are bootleggers but people who conveniently became concerned about the climate right when it benefitted them are suspect. Just like communism, “we need to control people for their own good.” How many climate bootleggers are there? We don’t know. But we know there are power hungry people who would do anything to get what they want so there are certainly some.

I try to be pragmatic. If carbon credits can raise capital for entrepreneurs who can replant trees or provide funding for rural solar projects, I’m all for it—for better or worse, such projects are a drop in the bucket for global carbon. However, I have not heard the unintended consequences of carbon credits discussed. Like giving away free clothes in Africa, thereby destroying nascent textile businesses, there are always unintended consequences.

What do you think?

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Tom Halla
May 10, 2024 2:10 pm

Some are True Believers, but some are just grifters. Subsidy miners and other Rent Seekers.

Reply to  Tom Halla
May 10, 2024 8:37 pm

True Tom. What do you think the ratio is between the true disciples and the grifters? .

Tom Halla
Reply to  SteveG
May 10, 2024 8:47 pm

Probably more grifters than True Believers. But what we have to worry about too are the “well, whatever” people who just don’t care either way.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom Halla
May 11, 2024 3:40 am

Yes, 10-20% have a strong fixed opinion and the other 80-90% just pretend to believe whatever the current fashion dictates.

The was a time in my memory when 90% claimed to believe in God.

Reply to  SteveG
May 11, 2024 6:51 am

about 1:3 disciples to grifters

Sean Galbally
May 10, 2024 2:16 pm

The question about global warming or climate change should always be IS IT MAN-MADE? Not whether it happens, which of course it does. It is caused by the sun and not man.

Scarecrow Repair
Reply to  Sean Galbally
May 10, 2024 3:14 pm

Better yet, IS IT CONTROLLABLE BY MAN? followed by SHOW YOUR WORK.

Reply to  Scarecrow Repair
May 10, 2024 4:20 pm

Sure. We just have to stop causing it.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:32 pm

There is no evidence that we are causing it.

Reply to  MarkW
May 10, 2024 4:34 pm

That evidence is overwhelming, and can readily be found in the body of scientific literature. No contradictory evidence has ever been found.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:14 pm

Rubbish.

You say there is evidence.. Then produce it.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 9:12 pm

And once again, the troll fails to produce any evidence to back up his claims. Computer models are not evidence.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 1:34 am

Troll. Stop replying

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 3:57 am

Come on, people! There is evidence of both human and natural causation. Denying either is ridiculously childish.

You’re conflating evidence with proof. Proof is practically impossible. Evidence is abundant and often contradictory. Certainly you have heard the term circumstantial evidence?

The relevant questions are:

Is it significant?
Is it harmful or beneficial?
Can we prevent it?
Can we adapt to it?
Which approach is more beneficial on balance?

Spoiler alert!

The answers are: No, beneficial, no, yes, adaptation.

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 4:04 am

Natural climate forcings, if left to their own devices, would yield a net cooling trend. Man caused climate forcings overcome the natural cooling and add the warming trend we experience today.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 4:12 am

Just make up non-science nonsense as you go…

You have ABSOLUTELY ZERO EVIDENCE to back up your silly rantings.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 4:30 am

“Natural climate forcings, if left to their own devices, would yield a net cooling trend.”

You couldn’t prove that if your life depended on doing so.

This is what is called an unsubstantiated assertion. it’s not science.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 11, 2024 4:36 am

That’s what found in the body of scientific research. It’s easy for you to find if you ever looked into real science.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 7:06 am

If you’ve ever looked into real science I’ll shit a wombat turd

wombat-turd
Reply to  Leo Smith
May 11, 2024 5:14 pm

You’d better start telling people to watch out.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 9:36 am

Whatever you wish to believe is automatically promoted to “the body of science”.
If you could prove it, you would. So far all you have ever done is just assert whatever it is you believe at the moment.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 4:34 am

Unlike most commenters here, I tend to agree that the warming we see is probably largely the result of the enhanced greenhouse effect. Yet I am astounded that you and so many others fail to question the orthodoxy that any warming is harmful.

Anthony Banton
Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 8:56 am

Likewise he, like me is probably astounded that any ABCD “science” is greeted with cheers from this echo-chamber.
Uncritically.

Maybe not for you personally, but the difference is without resorting to ideological biases that seem to soon get to the lowest common denominator here and which renders any further discussion impossible.
Science proponents are just using common sense in presuming that climatologists and earth scientists in general are “not cheating at patience” in order to perpetrate a scam to line their pockets with gold in the shape of grants
As someone has said. AGW deniers always win.
It’s for that reason and in their own minds only.
No amount of evidence will convince “most commenters here” otherwise.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Anthony Banton
May 11, 2024 10:01 am

Anthony,
On the contrary, there are many things that I once thought were true that reasonable people convinced me were not correct in participating in these comments over the years. It may even be that you personally have influenced my view, though I can’t recall anything specific.

Does it ever occur to you to question your cherished beliefs or to admit to yourself that you have unsupported beliefs in the first place?

I couldn’t agree more that a large amount of what gets posted is useless trash talk that influences nobody. You should acknowledge that it is your tribe that provokes as many of those pointless exchanges as does my tribe. (Of course half of my tribe considers me a leprous lukewarmist, so I am taking hits from both sides).

MarkW
Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 9:45 am

Since the end of the Holocene Optimum there have been including the current one, 5 warm periods. (Egyptian, Minoan, Roman, Medieval and Modern)
The first 4 could not have been caused by CO2. Interestingly enough, there was a period of about 1000 years between each of them.
Why should we assume that whatever caused the first 4 isn’t also the cause of the 5th one?
This goes double when you consider that the current warming started over 100 years before CO2 started any significant increases.

Rich Davis
Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 10:11 am

That’s a very well reasoned point and I don’t at all dismiss it. In fact I think that almost certainly it is near proof that a substantial part of the current warming is unrelated to AGW.

My consistent position has been that whether the enhancement of the natural greenhouse effect due to our fossil fuel CO2 emissions has had a substantial or minimal effect on the modern warming trend, in any case it is beneficial.

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 6:27 pm

But the whole point is that you don’t know that the “natural greenhouse effect” has been “enhanced” at all.

CO2 accounts for a minority portion of it and “all other things” are not “held equal,” the operative conditions for atmospheric CO2 to effect temperature. Since the feedbacks are negative, offsetting feedbacks, the effect on temperature, never observed to be affected by atmospheric CO2, is unlikely to be distinguishable from zero.

Rich Davis
Reply to  AGW is Not Science
May 12, 2024 12:13 pm

Yes, you are correct. Your points are not disputed by me. Water vapor is the primary greenhouse gas. There are negative feedbacks obviously, otherwise the oceans would have all boiled off and our atmosphere would be very dense, high pressure primarily hot water vapor. It MAY be that any enhancement of the GHE due to rising CO2 would be fully compensated for.

My only point is that it MAY not be the case.

Again in case anyone missed it, I do not think we should be concerned either way and I do not think we should do anything about it.

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 12, 2024 12:24 pm

Wrong wrong and wrong. Water vapor is not a direct cause of increasing temperatures because it condenses out. And positive feedbacks outweigh negative feedbacks.
And net positive feedbacks do not imply runaway warming.
try again

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 2:22 pm

Look Warren, you’re boring me now. I have no reason to believe that you’re even an actual human and certainly if you are, it seems clear that you are regurgitating supposed answers to common ‘denier’ arguments from some wacko website.

Water vapor is far and away the most important component of our life-giving greenhouse effect. The little bit we add to enhance it with CO2 is trivial by comparison. If memory serves it’s something like 33° of warming.

Of course it condenses, and also forms clouds. Those are the negative feedbacks.

And you say net positive feedback as if you’re clueless what the word ‘net’ means. I said the oceans would have long since boiled off if there were NO negative feedbacks, not if there were any positive feedbacks. It’s a counter-factual hypothetical if you can grasp the concept.

Obviously there are net positive feedbacks possible. How else would the climate go from glacial maximum to an interstadial? Similarly there are net negative feedbacks that drive us into glaciation. But they are always NET feedbacks where the system resists the change with opposing feedbacks.

I’m glad to see that you think I was wrong when I defended your position as potentially correct or at least not disproven. I tend to agree that I was giving you too much credit.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 9:37 pm

Any time that precipitation reduces the saturation of the atmosphere, it is subject to being replaced by evaporation, transpiration, and sublimation at high altitudes. Thus, the absolute humidity varies over time and space, but except in exceptional locations such as the Atacama Desert, there is usually WV present. Humans, by creating reservoirs, planting irrigated crops, watering golf courses, using misters at bus stops and gas stations, provide more water vapor than was commonly available more than 50 years ago. Again, you are providing assertions without supporting evidence.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 13, 2024 12:13 pm

Right. So despite a climate system that has seen long periods of stability, you opine that positive, amplifying feedbacks dominate.

Which would lead to a wildly UNSTABLE climate.

As I like to say, “Observation trumps theory.”

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 13, 2024 12:19 pm

The greenhouse effect is not a direct cause of increasing temperatures because water vapor, which is the main greenhouse gas, condenses out or forms clouds that reflect away incoming solar energy. And negative feedbacks outweigh positive feedbacks.

But net negative feedbacks do not imply stasis.

FIFY

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 13, 2024 12:21 pm

As one geologist so aptly summed it up – “If CO2 could do what they say it can do, then the oceans would have boiled away or frozen over a long time ago.”

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 2:17 pm

by ‘Orthodoxy’ I’m not sure what you mean. I go by the peer reviewed climate science because I have only limited expertise in that field.

aussiecol
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 2:35 pm

 ”I have only limited expertise in that field.”

Probably explains why you are a ‘believer’ rather than a pragmatist.

Reply to  aussiecol
May 11, 2024 4:50 pm

No, it explains why I am not a ‘believer’ but rather someone with a science background, not in climate science, who nevertheless can recognize the nonsense that Deniers spew. So i go to the experts, not the amateurs on WUWT who think they know something when they do not.

aussiecol
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 1:09 am

” I am not a ‘believer’ but rather someone with a science background,”

You just contradicted yourself. No wonder everyone here is giving you a deserved pile on.

Reply to  aussiecol
May 12, 2024 4:15 am

Unlike Deniers, I don’t ‘believe ‘ that the earth is flat.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 9:45 pm

Surely you don’t ‘believe’ that this blog is populated with Flat Earthers!

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 13, 2024 12:04 pm

Unlike natural climate change deniers, we don’t believe CO2, which couldn’t prevent an ice age at 10x today’s levels, will now be able to commence a “runaway greenhouse effect” at today’s relative pittance of 420ppm. Nor do we believe the Earth is flat.

MarkW
Reply to  aussiecol
May 12, 2024 10:51 am

For someone who claims a “science background”, he doesn’t know the first thing about the scientific method.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 10:50 am

Science involves reading the arguments against whatever it is you believe in and countering them.
You on the other hand just reject anything that doesn’t fit your belief system.

Reply to  MarkW
May 12, 2024 10:59 am

Wrong. I read plenty of Deniers arguments — which are mostly incompetent, and without scientific foundation

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 13, 2024 11:59 am

We are ALL bombarded with Climate Nazi arguments – which are all incompetent and without scientific foundation.

FIFY

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 9:44 pm

What research have you done to support your claim that commenters here are amateurs like you? From reading the comments, and paying attention to what people say about themselves, I would hazard a guess that the commenters here probably have the highest education and IQs of any blog I have visited. Many here seem to be at least your peers, and there are many with degrees in Earth Science, not all the different from Michael Mann.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 13, 2024 12:08 pm

Experts?! LMFAO.

Your “experts” have made lots of predictions, every one of which that has reached its expiration date has been WRONG. Long before now, any REAL scientist worthy of the title would have discarded or heavily modified their pet hypothesis to fit with observations.

But the “story” of your so-called “experts” remains the same, which tells you they are *NOT* scientists at all.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 2:38 pm

Oh I see. So you’re aware of the work of Lindzen, Happer, Wijngaarden, Koonin, Curry, Lewis, Spencer, Soon, … and the fact that they all disagree in one way or another with the politically-driven narrative that you like to think of as The Science ™

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 4:52 pm

None of those persons are researching Climate Scientists, and so I dismiss them as either ignorant politicos (Happer) or in the pay of fossil fuel companies like Curry and Lindzen.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 6:19 pm

None of them are practicing Climastrogers so you dismiss them as not being in your religion.

If you’re unable to consider the possibility that the climate-industrial complex has corrupted science, then there’s really no point in anyone responding to you. We are already well versed in your mythology.

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 6:38 pm

I don’t believe in little Green men or conspiracy theories. But I do see you will invent the most preposterous nonsense to avoid accepting the findings of scientific research. Guess that makes you a flat earther

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 10:54 am

First off, I can’t see how anyone who claims to have some knowledge of science could declare that consensus is proof.
Secondly, I love the way that you declare that only those who agree with the bought and paid for consensus can be considered a “climate scientist”.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 5:48 am

Dr. Happer knows as much about the Earth’s atmosphere as anyone living or dead.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 12, 2024 6:03 am

Happer is merely a politician with a noxious agenda. He’s not a climate scientist and is mostly ignorant of the science

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 10:55 am

So anyone who disagrees with your bought and paid for science is just a noxious politician.

It really is remarkable how proud you are of the fact that your mind is utterly closed to anything that isn’t approved by your handlers.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 9:55 pm

I suppose you consider Michael Mann to be a “climate scientist” despite the fact that he has no academic credentials (i.e. degrees) in climatology. His PhD is in geology and geophysics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_E._Mann

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 10:52 am

In other words, you only believe the words of people who are paid to support the global warming narrative.
How unscientific of you.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 9:48 pm

Do you have ANY evidence to support your accusation that Curry and Lindzen are on fossil fuel company payrolls? Your insult is again fact-free like your other assertions.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 13, 2024 11:56 am

Ah the old “money corrupts” argument.

Only since government funding of “climate” research is orders of magnitude more than the pittance fossil fuel companies have contributed, that makes the so-called “scientists” you cheerlead for much more corrupt than those you denigrate, by your own definition.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 10:49 am

Translation: I only read stuff that I know I’m going to agree with.

Reply to  MarkW
May 12, 2024 10:55 am

I don’t respect Happer. He lacks integrity. Plus he’s not a climate scientist. Reading Harper is akin to reading a gastroenterologist’s book for advice on orthopedic surgery.,

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 9:39 pm

… I have only limited expertise in that field.

That is painfully evident.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 13, 2024 12:24 pm

Pal reviewed climate pseudo-science became an echo chamber a long time ago.

And has discredited science in the process.

Duane
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 6:01 am

Really – so how do you explain the Holocene, which naturally warmed up the atmosphere for the last 16 thousand years? Or was that due to the use of fossil fuels by, whom?

Reply to  Duane
May 11, 2024 6:11 am

The warming portion of a Milankovitch cycle.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 9:39 am

THe Milankovitch cycle is way to slow to explain the rise and fall of the Holocene.

Rich Davis
Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 10:29 am

Just so that you’re not misinterpreted I imagine what you mean is that the Milanković cycles are way too slow to explain the warm and cold periods within the Holocene. I imagine that you agree that the stadials and interstadials such as the Holocene are influenced by the M cycles.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 11:58 am

Now we have a Milankovitch Denier on the thread!

(Milankovitch cycles have periods of approx 12,000 40,000, and 100,000 years. So yes, they do explain the current cooling climate forcing)

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 2:26 pm

Say what, Beeton?

Cycles that go from one extreme to the other in 6,000 or 20,000 or 50,000 years are supposed to be driving a cycle that goes from one extreme to the other in 500 years?

Sure the tipping points into and out of glaciations are associated with Milanković cycles. Warm periods and dark ages within the current interstadial can’t be driven by that.

But don’t bother to rebut me. I already know the dogma (“hide the decline”). There never was any such thing as a warm period. Mark W just doesn’t understand that the old Norse were so hardy that they could grow barley in Greenlandic permafrost. And it was regional like the little region from Iceland to New Zealand. I know right?

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 4:46 pm

Who said anything about milankovitch cycles driving the current warming?

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 6:13 pm

You said that the warm periods within the Holocene were caused by warm phases of M. cycles. Then of course you caught your heresy and reverted to the regional canard.

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 6:36 pm

If you’re talking about interglacials vs glaciations, that’s all Milankovitch driven. If you’re taking about localized warming eg, the Minoan, that’s not.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 13, 2024 12:46 pm

The vast majority of the increase in AVERAGE temperature today has occurred in the northern hemisphere, so I guess today’s warming is “localized” too.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 9:34 am

There have been 4 warm periods not including the current one during the last 5000 years.
Your belief that absent the intervention of man, climate would be smooth and regular is refuted by both the data and common sense.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 2:08 pm

That’s not my assumption and I never said it.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 2:45 pm

So clarify! The Holocene Climate Optimum, Egyptian, Minoan, Roman, and Medieval Warm Periods were caused by what factor that no longer applies to the Modern Warm Period?

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 4:54 pm

None were global phenomena –only regional. Why don’t you check the peer reviewed science for those answers as to the cause?

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 6:10 pm

As I predicted, you know your catechism.

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 6:34 pm

I know what the scientific research says. You do not.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 10:58 am

It’s only science when it is approved by the priesthood.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 2:47 pm

Warren, it’s unlikely that there are many alarmist claims that I haven’t watched get debunked on WUWT over the past 10+ years of practically daily reading. I’ve also watched many skeptic hypotheses get debunked by intellectually honest fellow skeptics.

A great many people here know much more than I do, to be sure. All I can say is that for certain, you are no expert and I’m fairly confident that I am more familiar with the science than you are.

I’m not planning to waste any more time on this particular post, arguing pointlessly with a troll potential AI chatbot. You call me a flat-earther and a believer in little green men. Such puerile insults are so absurd that they cannot even register as annoying.

But if you are a real person, enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 12, 2024 10:01 pm

The AI ‘bots will lie. Their only redeeming virtue is that if caught in an untruth, they don’t argue and readily admit their error. However, if one is not knowledgeable enough to know when the ‘bot is wrong, they will accept the untruth.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 10:57 am

It wasn’t in an approved peer reviewed journal, therefore it never happened.

Reply to  MarkW
May 12, 2024 11:01 am

If it was posted by a Denier, I can be sure it’s utterly incompetent.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 13, 2024 12:48 pm

If it was posted by a natural climate change denier, I can be sure it’s utterly incompetent.

FIFY

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 9:26 pm

You are making unsupported assertions, not providing evidence. Do you understand the difference?

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 4:27 am

The first question we have to answer before asking any of those questions is how much net warmth does CO2 add to the Earth’s atmosphere?

Until we know that, we can’t answer any of those other questions.

At present, we don’t know how much net warmth CO2 adds to the atmosphere. It may be so small as to be inconsequential after negative feedbacks are figured in.

How much net warmth does CO2 add to the Earth’s atmosphere? The answer is: Nobody knows at this time.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 11, 2024 4:33 am

The amount of heat added to earths system has been quantified. It’s roughly equal to 4-1/2 Hiroshima-size nuclear explosions per second, 24/7, continuously for the last 50 years.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 9:46 am

You are really impressed by meaningless numbers.
Given the size of the atmosphere and oceans, that is a very tiny number.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 10:30 am

Wow Beeton! Now that’s not at all agitprop!

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 6:38 pm

Nonsense. A small change in cloud cover can completely eliminate ANY effect on temperature with 2x the atmospheric CO2.

Your numbers, like all such numbers, assume “all other things go held equal.” Which they have never been, are not, and will never be.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 5:53 am

You made me laugh, Warren.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 11, 2024 6:07 am

Tom,
Respectfully, I disagree. How much CO2 warms things is irrelevant to most of my questions.

Is it significant?
If warming is not significant overall, then it doesn’t matter whether warming is caused entirely by CO2 or not at all by CO2 (both simplistic views). The causes of an insignificant effect are INSIGNIFICANT by definition. Is a 0.5% change in temperature (using an absolute scale), significant relative to the temperatures that have prevailed during the history of humanity? I submit that 1-2% is not significant and 0.5% obviously not.

Is it harmful or beneficial?
(“It” refers to “warming”).
On balance, have things gotten materially better or worse due to a bit over a degree Celsius of inconsistent warming since the mid-1800s? That is clearly a question that doesn’t require us to think about how much heat is added to the atmosphere due to CO2. And the answer is brilliantly obvious to anyone lacking ideological blinders. Ten times more deaths from cold than from heat. Agricultural output through the roof in modern times. Now of course warmer-colder isn’t the only factor. Obviously the benefits of fossil fuels are a bigger effect than the direct effects of warmth.

Can we prevent it?
Paleoclimatology would suggest that the earth’s temperature fluctuates cyclically and dramatically on geological timescales apart from any possible human effects. It would be helpful to understand how much of the current warming is due to CO2 only because if it is mostly caused by fossil fuel emissions, then technically we could prevent it (although practically the required action equates to famine and many deaths). Conversely, if it’s mostly caused by natural factors, we could not prevent it. I’ll grant you that point.

Can we adapt to it?
Clearly this is not a question that goes unanswered for lack of knowing how much heat is added to the atmosphere by CO2. Have humans survived temperature changes of this magnitude in the past? Of course we have. We have thrived as we exited the last glacial period and also as we warmed out of the “Little Ice Age”. Knowing that we can’t prevent it or at least that we can’t prevent it without horrific side effects only drives home the reality that adaptation is our only practical choice.

Which approach is more beneficial on balance?
The most vital of the questions that I posed, does not require answering the question about how much heat is added to the atmosphere by CO2.

Even if a further period of warming might carry some negative implications, and is totally the result of fossil fuel burning, is the cure worse than the disease?

If those putative negative effects were due entirely to natural factors then adaptation would be the only option.

Knowing which scenario applies, does not change our rational course of action. If adaptation is feasible, as it manifestly must be, and it results in a better outcome than abandoning fossil fuels, then that is the rational choice.

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 12, 2024 6:16 am

A little warming is definitely a good thing, Rich.

I, personally, can’t tell there is any warming. The weather hasn’t changed much in my entire life. The late 1970’s was the period when some climate scientists were worrying that the Earth was headed into another Ice Age, but you couldn’t tell it by me. The only significant cold event I remember from that time was the blizzard of 1978. It dropped a ton of snow on everyone, but it was gone in a matter of weeks and it was back to “normal”.

I couldn’t tell much difference in the weather during the coldest times in recent history in the 1970’s, and I can’t tell much difference now, in the suppsed hottest time in history. It’s all about the same to me and my location.

I can say it was hotter in the past, in my youth, than it is today with the exception of 2011, which was as hot a summer as I have ever experienced. It was brutal, mainly because it was combined with a severe drought. But nothing like that since that time.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 11, 2024 6:35 pm

While we don’t know, since there is no “CO2 drives temperature” relationship anywhere in the climate record, the most likely answer is “indistinguishable from ZERO.”

Reply to  AGW is Not Science
May 12, 2024 6:04 am

I think so, too.

Climate alarmists have been trying to distinguish CO2’s effect from Zero for decades now, and they haven’t found an indication of it yet.

The only thing Climate Alarmists have going for them is they happen to be making these CO2-controls-the-temperature claims during a cyclical temperature upswing.

If the temperatures start cooling, then what will the Climate Alarmists do? Their only “evidence” going the wrong way. That would be so sad for them.

I look forward to that day/decade. it will be a good lesson about assuming too much.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 12, 2024 6:19 am

All climate research concludes rising atmospheric CO2 is indeed responsible for industrial era rapid warming of the planet. You seem to be more than a little out of date.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 13, 2024 8:03 am

Wrong. There are peer reviewed, published scientific research that contradicts your claim.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 12, 2024 1:16 pm

I’ve been waiting for that day for a long time, too. If it’s a quasi 60-70 year cycle then there should be a peak or a trough every 30-35 years. Let’s say 1940 was a peak, then 1975 would be a trough in a 70-yr cycle. So far so good. 2010 would peak again, not so far off I guess. It would point to 2045 as another trough.

The problem for me is that if we peaked almost 15 years ago, why are we seeing record anomalies now? And shouldn’t we start seeing some serious cooling pretty much immediately?

I understand that it’s a quasi cycle with no definitely identified mechanism. But it in any case remains consistent with the alarmist narrative even if the ‘catastrophic’ heating is almost unnoticeable and certainly beneficial.

Reasonable people should not rule out what has not been rigorously ruled out, just because it’s convenient for our political viewpoint.

Also, prudent people shouldn’t predict something that might end up going the other way for reasons we don’t yet understand.

There is NO CLIMATE EMERGENCY!

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 13, 2024 1:09 pm

Oh you know what’s coming if the temperature trend goes to cooling (by enough that their “adjustments” can’t hide it.

They’ll roll out the old “the warming caused the cooling” canard.

Duane
Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 5:59 am

Dude, where is the proof necessary to justify destroying man’s built environment, affecting the lives of 8 billion souls? That would seem to be the ultimate “precautionary principle”, as in Hippocrates’s “First, do no harm”.

The fact is there is immense proof that CO2 is but a bit player in controlling the climate that you warmunists always ignore and pretend does not exist. Like, physics; astrophysics; chemistry; geochemistry; geology; biology; etc. etc. – vast areas of scientific knowledge that refute the silly notion that a tiny trace gas is the sole control knob for Earth’s climate.

There IS such a thing as scientific proof, so when you say it’s silly to demand proof, then you are no scientist.

We do not have full understanding of all that makes the universe tick when drilling down to the most basic principles, but we have gobs of understanding of how stuff works, and doesn’t work.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Duane
May 11, 2024 6:24 am

Dude? You warmunists?

Do you bother to read anything I have written? That’s absurdly laughable.

Honestly, what’s happening in our world? Less yelling hooray for my side and more thinking, more considering other points of view is needed.

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 7:05 am

Come on, people! There is likelihood (not evidence) of both human and evidence of natural causation. Since the climate changed pre man’s existence, that is a given. What matters to people who can count beyond ten with their socks still on, is how much is man made?

And a brief glance at the graphs of CO2 rise and the graphs of temperature rises show a correlation about the square root of Sweet Fanny Adams.

Is temperature rising ? well toss a coin. its a 50 50 that it is.

Has humanity made a difference?
Honey, even a butterfly flapping its wings makes a difference.

Has humanity made a big enough difference to be clearly distinguishable from noise and directly correlated to CO2?

No.

Can humanity stop climate change?
It never has in the past.

Which is worse, a world running on renewables only, or a world two degrees warmer?

A world running on renewables only.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Leo Smith
May 11, 2024 8:16 am

Leo,
I know you to be a bright guy, and I can endorse your most important points, but this notion that there’s no evidence of anthropogenic warming is not reasonable.

What is the definition of evidence?

In law, we speak of proof beyond a reasonable doubt based on evidence. Evidence is therefore not proof, not absolutely certain. We talk about ‘circumstantial evidence’ as being explicitly uncertain but pointing to a likelihood. Even in a criminal trial, circumstantial evidence can convict a defendant if it reaches a threshold of reasonability that is not quite certain.

We talk about a ‘preponderance of evidence’ in civil trials. Again, the clear meaning is that evidence is like clues pointing to a conclusion, potentially misleading us, forcing us to make a judgement call.

Correlation is not proof but it is evidence supporting a hypothesis. Lack of correlation is strong evidence against a hypothesis, yet measurement error and confounding factors could result in something that is a true effect appearing to be uncorrelated.

The evidence that exists in favor of the hypothesis of anthropogenic global warming does not rise to a standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt for you or for many including me. In my assessment it achieves the standard of a preponderance of evidence, but that’s just my opinion which may well be wrong.

It seems far more relevant to me to ask the question whether warming from whatever cause is harmful or beneficial.

Stating that the preponderance of evidence, or clues, points toward anthropogenic warming being real is a far cry from claiming that it is dangerous and should be addressed by dismantling modern society. I believe it is a minor but real phenomenon which has a beneficial effect and should not lead us to take any action.

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 12, 2024 6:33 am

“In law, we speak of proof beyond a reasonable doubt based on evidence. Evidence is therefore not proof, not absolutely certain.”

I have to disagree. The evidence *is* the proof. Without the evidence, there is no proof.

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 2:45 pm

The only so-called “evidence” of human causation is grounded in a purely hypothetical effect.

Which, in turn, has never been empirically shown to operate in reality as hypothesized.

Rich Davis
Reply to  AGW is Not Science
May 11, 2024 3:03 pm

I’ve emphasized it over and over without making a dent, but my view is that there is at least substantial natural causation and only possibly significant human causation but neither are harmful and indeed warmer is better, more CO2 is better.

There’s really just the basic correlation of temperature and CO2 that causes me to acknowledge that there’s some evidence. Again evidence is not proof and I am only saying that the facts are consistent with the possibility that the enhancement of the natural greenhouse effect may result in a significant part of the empirically observed modern warming being the result of fossil fuel emissions.

That this should be a controversial opinion is strange to me.

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 14, 2024 11:44 am

Yup biggest lie they’re selling = warmer climate is worse than a colder climate.

As for correlation between atmospheric CO2 and temperature, that is not present across the entirety of the climate record, and the climate record includes numerous examples of reverse correlation that show that the notion of causation (as in CO2 driving temperature) is highly questionable.

Extremely high levels in the distant past without any upward effect on temperature show that there is no positive, amplifying feedback that exists to turn the “all other things held equal” hypothetical effect of doubling atmospheric CO2 into something six times as large, this notion is utter nonsense. The fact that Earth experienced an ice age with ten times today’s atmospheric level of CO2 similarly shows the notion of the supposed “climate driving power” of atmospheric CO2 to be nonsense.

Also recall that the ice core reconstructions (the portion of the climate record that does show correlation, but also shows reverse correlation) show temperature change happening first, and CO2 level changes following. This suggests a “temperature drives atmospheric CO2” relationship, not an “atmospheric CO2 drives temperature” relationship. The only “suggestion” of a “CO2 drives temperature” relationship is the hypothetical effect based on the “all other things held equal” foundational assumption. I won’t ever see that as “evidence” because a hypothetical effect is not ‘evidence,’ particularly of itself.

The time lag of the suggested “temperature drives atmospheric CO2” relationship =~800 years give or take. Subtract 800 from 2024 and you find yourself in… The Medieval Warm Period. So at least part of the current rise in CO2 can be credited to an echo of that previous warm period, as shown in the ice core reconstructions.

As for the rest of recent increases to atmospheric CO2, who knows. We make our contribution, but that’s the only thing being measured (and even that is by inference as opposed to direct measurement). An increase of other natural sources, which account for 96-97% of total annual emissions, would swamp our contribution. The bottom line is they are not measuring all sources and sinks of atmospheric CO2, so their assertion that our small contribution to it is the “tail that wags the dog” is little more than guesswork and speculation and assumption. And it is in turn based on the scientific incompetence of directly comparing dodgy “air bubbles in ice” proxy measurements to current instrument measurements as if they are the same and can be used to indicate the level of change down to the part per million.

So as I see it, while there is ample climate history which seems to refute any climate impact from atmospheric CO2, there isn’t any that supports the notion that atmospheric CO2 is the, or even A, “climate control knob.”

Today’s so-called “climate science” reaches its conclusions only by willfully ignoring most of the actual climate history, by adjusting data, by discarding data, by cherry picking, and by completely ignoring any natural forces that impact the climate, while viciously attacking any scientists who are remotely skeptical about any component part of their narrative which, under scrutiny, is a house of cards.

Duane
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 5:38 am

Absolutely not true. There is only evidence that CO2 is a tiny trace element in the atmosphere that, if it were the only factor affecting atmospheric temperatures, would have some effect on temperature … but there is absolutely no evidence that CO2 concentration in air is the “control knob” for the atmospheric climate. There IS OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE that numerous other factors work together in a complex environment to affect atmospheric climate, such as Earth’s orbital position relative to the sun; axial tilt; geo-tectonic affects; ocean currents; prevailing wind patterns; the sun’s emissions of energy; the effect of atmospheric moisture and clouds; geochemical interactions between air, ocean waters, and biological actors like trees and shellfish; and most importantly, the fact that the ocean is the heat sink for the planet where most of the sun’s thermal energy arriving on Earth is stored … and also, that the oceans’ waters control the atmosphere, not the other way around as the silly warmunists claim. Plus numerous other factors affect climate too, such as the effects of cosmic radiation, the strength of Earth’s magnetic fields; and feedbacks from plants and animals.

What kind of a scientific ignoramus actually believes that just one thing, a tiny trace gas in the atmosphere, controls literally everything on earth? As if the planet itself, and the solar system, and the marvelously complex Earthian environment do not even exist.

Even a scientific ignoramus must understand that on a mass basis, most carbon dioxide in the biosphere and atmosphere is dissolved in oceanic waters, and that as the oceans warm or cool, due to all those other factors and more that affect ocean water temperatures, either releases CO2 (if warming) or absorbs CO2 (if cooling), since we know that temperature controls the solubility of any gas in liquid water. The association of CO2 with atmospheric temperature is something the warmunists have always had bass ackwards. When temperatures go up, it CAUSES atmospheric CO2 concentrations to increase. The CO2 concentration in the atmosphere, then is an effect, not a cause, of global warming.

The entire notion that there is a single control knob for the climate, and that that is CO2, is immensely ignorant and illogical from a scientific perspective, if not from common sense.

Reply to  Duane
May 11, 2024 7:57 am

Well said.

Reply to  Duane
May 11, 2024 3:23 pm

There are indeed many factors that drive earths climate. But man-caused CO2 emissions have dominated since about 1970. There is no other cause that explains the current rapid warming.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 11:04 am

There is no evidence that the current warming is in any way rapid.
The warming from 1850 to 1970 was the same speed as the warming since.
If you know as much “science” as you claim to, you will know the problem of trying to compare annual data against proxies with centennial and millennial resolutions.

Reply to  MarkW
May 12, 2024 11:13 am

How do you rationalize your ignorance of the data, and then dreaming up stuff?

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 6:55 am

Au contraire the body of scientific data actually refutes it.
Anyone can write a bad novel with a scary plot line We don’t pay regard to literature here.
We leave that to ArtStudents™.

Reply to  Leo Smith
May 11, 2024 3:28 pm

Your post would be quite a surprise to the worlds climate scientists who have universally concluded that man’s burning of fossil fuels are the primary cause

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 11:06 am

How does one become a climate “scientist”. The preferred method is to be anointed by someone who is already recognized as a climate “scientist”.
No actual science knowledge is necessary, indeed most of the prominent climate scientists have little to no actual experience in any of the standard scientific fields.

Reply to  MarkW
May 12, 2024 11:18 am

When did you start projecting your mental problems onto others?

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 2:41 pm

There is NO “evidence.” The quantity of material “published” is meaningless, since most of it is nothing but assumptions and speculation.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:33 pm

No evidence that we are causing any “global” warming or global climate changes.

If you think there is evidence that humans are warming the globe by emissions…

… then post it.

Scarecrow Repair
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:19 pm

SHOW YOUR WORK!

Reply to  Scarecrow Repair
May 10, 2024 5:32 pm

I didn’t do any of “the work”. “The work”, ie, finding and assessing the evidence, has already been done by thousands of scientists working in every country of the developed world. “The work” can readily be found in reports by NASA, the IPCC, the National Academy of Sciences, or other scientific institutions.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:46 pm

You still refuse to present any of this actual evidence.

Why is that ??

I bet you have NEVER read any of it. If you had you would find it rife with conjectures, models, suppositions, mantra…

… and very little actual science

Even if had read any.. it is doubtful you have the intelligence to actually see how bad most of it is.

So.. PRODUCE the evidence.. … or be an empty nothing. !

Scarecrow Repair
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 6:58 pm

Then you could more easily link to it and quote it than refuse to SHOW YOUR WORK!

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 8:02 pm

No evidence of CO2 warming in any of those pages…

You need to be much more precise, and not just link to baseless mantra rhetoric and political propaganda pap.

You will need to figure out what “science” actually is, first, though..

Then read through all your links and you will find out the evidence ISN’T there.!

We can wait.

MarkW
Reply to  bnice2000
May 10, 2024 9:15 pm

He’s been trained to believe that religious pronouncements by those he’s been told are experts is more important than actual data.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 3:49 am

He has faith.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 4:57 am

This comes to mind:

His Master’s Voice

His-Maters-Voice
Reply to  bnice2000
May 11, 2024 4:43 am

“You will need to figure out what “science” actually is, first, though..”

I think that’s the main problem. Warren doesn’t know how science is supposed to work.

Warren, people who make scientific claims are supposed to back up their claims with facts and evidence. It’s not up to skeptics to provide counter-evidence. The skeptics’ role is to point out when there is a lack of evidence and that’s what we do here at WUWT on a daily basis because we get all sorts of unsubstantiated claims from climate alarmists and we point that out to them.

The way to shut up the skeptics is to provide said evidence. You have not done so, therefore skeptics will continue to request the evidence you base your claims on.

All those reports and papers you provide have been examined by people here at WUWT long ago and were found wanting, and lacking in evidence.

You need to figure out the difference between what is facts/evidence, and what is not facts/evidence. You are assuming too much.

Speculation, assumptions, and unsubstantiated assertions are what Alarmist Climate Change is all about.

You should take notice that when a skeptic asks you for evidence, you don’t get any help from other climate alarmists who frequent WUWT. The reason for that is they know they don’t have any evidence to substantiate their claims, so they remain silent. You should, too, until you find some real evidence.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 11, 2024 5:25 am

“All those reports and papers you provide have been examined by people here at WUWT long ago and were found wanting, and lacking in evidence.”
A bunch of Deniers declare, that peer reviewed science is “wanting” and “lacking evidence”? And haven’t published any or their work in a scientific journal? Sounds like they lack the courage of their convictions, not to say lacking any data or analysis.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 9:51 am

In other words, if anyone questions those you consider to be experts, then those doing the questioning must be wrong.

Once again, you not only don’t know what science is, you are proud of your ignorance.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 9:14 pm

Actually it can’t, but then faith never needs evidence.

David Wojick
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 2:48 am

Opinions are not evidence.

Reply to  David Wojick
May 11, 2024 3:42 am

Agreed 100%. That’s why researching scientists, publishing their work in peer reviewed scientific journals, are to be believed, but Deniers not so much.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 4:14 am

Yet you still haven’t produced any.

And you obviously have ZERO CLUE how peer/pal review works in climate non-science.

Hint… it is nothing about actual science.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 4:17 am

Warren, I am puzzled. Why waste your time commenting here if you have no actual desire to engage in a conversation or even entertain the possibility that the conventional wisdom could be flawed?

Science is not an opinion poll. There have been many cases where large majorities of the public have believed false things.

There have also been many examples of the elite using the beliefs of the masses to enrich and empower themselves.

Do you really not grasp the distinction between something being real and something being catastrophically dangerous?

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 4:31 am

You’re puzzled? I am really puzzled. Why do you waste your time spouting nonsense that has no basis in science, that is contradicted by every bit of scientific research (not opinion, in spite of what you claim) done on the climate issue?

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 6:15 am

So you are a self-declared troll, whose only interest is to disrupt and harass rather than to engage in a thoughtful discussion?

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 8:11 am

Even climate science is a made up field.

Climate was thousands to millions of years. The IPCC had it changed by the WMO to only 30 years of weather,I guess that’s all the models to hope to model and so far they have done a poor job at that.

Good models should have error above and below the actual values. The IPCC models all run hot showing that they are flawed.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 9:55 am

Warren, who can’t even define what science is, is declaring himself to be the sole arbiter of who is permitted to question the high priests of science.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 8:05 am

The IPCC models don’t even include the variations in the Sun and its magnetic field or clouds. The magnetic field when low allows more cosmic rays to strike the Earth causing more clouds and clouds can reflect up to 90 percent of the Sun’s radiation that strike the Earth.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 9:53 am

In other words, peer review is the gold standard of science, and nothing that is peer reviewed may be questioned. Ever.

You obviously know nothing about either peer review, or science.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 3:48 am

It must be nice to have such faith.

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
May 12, 2024 6:49 am

Comfortable in the Bubble.

Joe Crawford
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 11:56 am

“We just have to stop causing it.” Onus probandi (i.e., the burden of proof is on the affirmative).

Reply to  Joe Crawford
May 11, 2024 11:59 am

And the last 50 years of scientific research have established that CO2 emissions from the burning of fossil fuels are the primary cause

Joe Crawford
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 12:07 pm

Most of those ’50 years of scientific research’ have been based on the untested, and therefore invalid, models and the remainder on pure speculation. There is no proof that man has caused any detectable global warming.

Reply to  Joe Crawford
May 11, 2024 1:06 pm

A common misconception. The theory that explains the current rapid warming of the planet is based on hard data taken from the physical world, and the physics that explains the behavior of the climate. Models are never considered evidence.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 11:12 am

The problem is that nothing out here in the real world is in any way shape or form, unusual.
There is no increase in the number or strength of storms.
There is no increase in heat waves or droughts.
The current warming is much smaller than warm spells that have occurred in the not too distant past, indeed 90% of the last 12 to 15 thousand years has been as much as 2 to 3 degrees C warmer than it is today.

The only “evidence” that CO2 is a problem are your GCMs. And none of them have been able to successfully hindcast the known weather of the last 50 years. For all of them, their predictions from 10, 20, 30 years have all run hot when compared to the real world data as it was collected.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 1:48 pm

Again, scientifically unsupportable BS is all the beetroot has to offer. !

Still waiting for actual evidence…. the beetroot has NONE. !

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 14, 2024 11:54 am

Because if they were to admit they have no case they would be killing the government grant funding gravy train that their ridiculous narrative is supported by.

As that very apt quote puts it, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”

Reply to  Sean Galbally
May 10, 2024 4:20 pm

It’s all caused by human activities- 80% by mankind’s burning of fossil fuels, the remainder by man-caused emissions of methane, N2O, and HFCs.

Mr.
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:26 pm

Are you gonna get Alvin Bragg to make this case?

Reply to  Mr.
May 10, 2024 4:28 pm

The case has already been made by every researcher in the world that studies the climate.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:36 pm

Yet when asked to produce the evidence… you FAIL utterly and completely.

Warming by enhanced CO2 remains what it has always been…

… a scientifically unproven conjecture.

Richard Greene
Reply to  bnice2000
May 11, 2024 4:26 am

“Yet when asked to produce the evidence… you FAIL utterly and completely.”

The internet is filled with evidence, probably 99% pro-AGW, along with papers by nearly 100% of climate scientists since 1896.

There is no agreement on how much AGW, and a few skeptic scientists think there is very little. Climate change is 100% natural is a rare claim.

Only a fool like you spends his life blabbering about “no evidence” and never attempting to study any of the evidence.

When asked for an alternative cause of warming you invent El Ninos and underses volcanoes. That’s Nutter territory.

If there is ever a contest to pick the conservative who most helped the leftist climate alarmists by parroting climate science myths, I will nominate you, now officially known as: “You Can’t Prove It, so BeNasty”

Reply to  Richard Greene
May 11, 2024 8:18 am

With only a 30-year window the climate is always changing, it is now just 30-year weather which is always changing.

Reply to  Richard Greene
May 11, 2024 10:04 am

All the “evidence ” I have seen is conjecture, not emperical evidence. CO2 is a trace gas, not a magic molecule. One major physical effect not considered in all this conjecture is specific heat. If that is not considered, it is not science. The specific heat of water vapor is 5X that of CO2, and there is far more of it in the atmosphere.

Reply to  Richard Greene
May 11, 2024 1:49 pm

You have never been able to produce any evidence either, RG

All you ever yap on about is consensus… which is NOT science.

You remain as EMPTY and SCIENCE-FREE as the beetroot.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 9:16 pm

Not true by a mile, but I’m sure you’ll get your cookie tonight.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 8:16 am

Climate scientist don’t even study the real climate of thousands to millions of years but a new redefined made up “climate” of only 30 years.

Geologists are the real climate experts.

The IPCC charter was to find evidence of human causation so they were biased from their beginning.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:34 pm

Even the IPCC does not claim that man is responsible for 80% of the warming.
Half the warming occurred prior to man producing much in the way of CO2 emissions.
During the period where mankind started producing large amounts of CO2 emissions, there was NO increase in the rate of warming.

You have no evidence to support opinions.

Reply to  MarkW
May 10, 2024 4:44 pm

The IPCC summary of the peer reviewed research concludes that man is responsible for 100% of the warming

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:17 pm

IPCC only consider human effects.

That is their charter.

So they just basically fabricate nonsense and ignore all natural warming.

They are a political organisation… not a scientific on.

Still waiting for you to produce a paper with evidence (not models or speculation or mantra) that human released CO2 causes warming.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 9:17 pm

It’s quite obvious that you have never read any of the IPCC papers. They say nothing of the sort.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 4:54 am

The IPCC Assessments say that the mean estimate is that anthropogenic causes account for 100% of the warming. And yes, I’ve read them.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 9:58 am

When you get hold of a good delusion, you don’t ever let go.
Personally I’m surprised you can even spell IPCC.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 10:11 pm

Now that is false because the warming trend started about 1700 while CO2 didn’t start going up until the late1880’s so for about 185 years CO2 didn’t do anything.

Reply to  Sunsettommy
May 11, 2024 4:13 am

You haven’t checked the data. Mancaused emissions of CO2 began to accumulate in the atmosphere beginning about 1750, whereas global temperatures didn’t begin to rise significantly until about 1900, and then only slowly until about 1970 when it accelerated to the current trend line of 0.18C per decade.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 5:06 am

The Trend Repeats

PhilJones-The-Trend-Repeats
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 8:23 am

The Sun with its higher output has also be storing up heat in the oceans for 100 years and warmer oceans release CO2 like a warmed soda pop bottle. The IPCC doesn’t even consider that since manmade warming is all they care about.

Reply to  scvblwxq
May 11, 2024 5:08 pm

The oceans transfer heat to the atmosphere over time. The IPCC considers all those factors.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 10:01 am

CO2 levels only increased by about 10ppm over the first 200 years. Since 1950 it has gone up by over 100ppm.

More than half of the warming since the bottom of the Little Ice Age occurred prior to 1950.
If 10ppm was sufficient to cause half the warming, then 10 times the CO2 should have caused 10 times the warming.

Rod Evans
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 12:59 am

Appealing to authority (such as it is) does not convey any truth in your statements.
Here is the fundamental situation.
Those who seek out facts and truth are not believers. That is clear, because they seek knowledge not beliefs.
Those who believe without evidence or facts to support their beliefs are simply adopting a quasi religious position. Why they would want to do that is their affair. Maybe it is social conformance, or may be just seeking an easy life with fellow believers.
The rest of us? Well we carry the burden of doubt and who knows, as time goes by our knowledge increases. But the believers still believe what ever they choose to believe, always devoid of facts and truth.

Reply to  Rod Evans
May 11, 2024 5:29 am

So I gather you’re someone who would never look to experts in the field for the best science available. So of course you would never take your child to a medical doctor, or your auto to an auto service facility. I applaud you for relying on the local janitor for both.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 6:53 am

Warren, time to come up for breakfast. Mom made your favorite avocado toast.

And by the way, with your 35th birthday coming up soon, have you considered getting a job and moving out of the basement?

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 10:03 am

If doctor’s had the same track record of failed predictions that the so called climate scientists do, nobody would be taking their children to them.

You seem to believe that once someone is declared an “expert”, from then on, nobody may question any of the pronouncements of these “experts”.

That’s not how science works.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 11:14 am

Here’s the problem Warren, you have declared that only the people who agree with you can be considered “experts”. Everyone else is just a despicable politician.

Reply to  MarkW
May 12, 2024 11:21 am

Thousands of the world’s researching scientists, publishing in top scientific journals, agree with me. You? Not so much.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 14, 2024 1:08 pm

Your so-called “experts” are neither experts nor scientists. They are activists who pretend to be scientists.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 4:30 am

I 1995 the IPCC arbitrary dismissed all atral causes of warming as “noise”

Since 1995 all warming was officially manmade and natural causes were noise.

An arbitrary political decision
Not good science.

The IPCC will not find evidence of natural causes of warming when they are only looking for evidence of manmade causes.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 8:20 am

The IPCC was formed to show that man is responsible for warming, it was in their charter. They said what they were formed to say.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:34 pm

Absolute rubbish… Unbacked by any actual empirical science of any kind.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 3:51 am

I suspect Beeton is AI, set up to annoy this site with patently absurd comments. They’re too simple minded to be a real person.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 9:56 am

In other words, absent man’s intervention, the weather would never change. It would be the same thing year after year after year.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 2:06 pm

You don’t even know the difference between weather and climate?

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 11:15 am

Evading the point.
How typical of you.

Reply to  MarkW
May 12, 2024 11:22 am

You didn’t have a point.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Sean Galbally
May 11, 2024 4:13 am

If global warming is pleasant, and it is, the cause does not matter.

Reply to  Richard Greene
May 11, 2024 5:09 am

It matters if politicians want to waste $TRILLIONS of our tax dollars to try to control CO2.

May 10, 2024 2:29 pm

The Earth is still in a 2.5 million-year ice age named the Quaternary Glaciation with 90 percent of the fresh water locked up in ice caps and 200,000 glaciers. Outside of the tropics everyone, that can, lives in heated houses and apartments, drives heated cars, works in heated buildings, and wears warm clothes most of the year. 

CO2 dropped to 180 ppm in the last glacial period, at 150 ppm most land plants die from the failure of photosynthesis taking most land animals down with them. The next glacial period may start at any time. 
https://pioga.org/just-the-facts-more-co2-is-good-less-is-bad

The cost is astronomical. Bloomberg’s green energy research team estimates $US200 trillion to stop warming by 2050. There are about 2 billion households worldwide, that is $100,000 per household. Probably only 10 percent of households can afford anything additional so that will be $1 million per household. Given the choice, almost all households would prefer $1 million in the bank and a degree or two of warming.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-07-05/-200-trillion-is-needed-to-stop-global-warming-that-s-a-bargain

It would probably cost only around $US1,000 per household or $US2 trillion to provide air conditioning with a solar panel and batteries, where needed, for every household worldwide.

People live in all kinds of long-term climates from Alaska which has a January average of 14F( -10C) to Dubai in Saudi Arabia which has an average July temperature of 106F(41C).

This study says that around 4.6 million people die each year from cooler weather compared to around 500,000 that die each from warmer weather. Where temperature is concerned, cold weather is the big killer of humans.
‘Global, regional and national burden of mortality associated with nonoptimal ambient temperatures from 2000 to 2019: a three-stage modelling study’ 
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(21)00081-4/fulltext

This study from 2015 says that cold weather kills 20 times as many people as hot weather and that moderately warm or cool weather kills far more people than extreme weather. When it is cool our blood vessels constrict to preserve heat raising our blood pressure and that causes more strokes and heart attacks in the cooler months.’Mortality risk attributable to high and low ambient temperature: a multi-country observational study’ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(14)62114-0/fulltext

People outside the Tropics probably spend only about 5 percent of their time outdoors anyway, so who cares if it warms up a couple of degrees?

Scissor
Reply to  scvblwxq
May 10, 2024 4:27 pm

I attempted to go to pioga.org in Australia and found that it was blocked there, both in Victoria and WA. I meant to try my vpn but didn’t get around to it.

HB
Reply to  Scissor
May 11, 2024 3:39 am

also NZ VPN worked set to US

Rich Davis
Reply to  HB
May 11, 2024 7:09 am

We really must do something about the slow pace of censorship in the US. Biden’s puppeteers are incompetent!

Richard Greene
Reply to  scvblwxq
May 11, 2024 4:44 am

You were going good until

“This study says that around 4.6 million people die each year from cooler weather compared to around 500,000 that die each from warmer weather” 

In reality, extremely few people die only from very hot or very cold weather.

The statistics are exaggerated by including people who dies from heart disease.

NOAA’s take: heat is the bigger killer

Over the 30-year period 1988 – 2017, NOAA classified an average of 134 deaths per year as being heat-related, and just 30 per year as cold-related—a more than a factor of four difference.

There is more stress on the blood circulation in cold weather. So cold weather increases deaths of heart patients. But is that really a cold weather death?

Heart patients die from the heart disease. Maybe they would live a few years longer in a warmer climate?

The fact that greenhouse warming mainly causes warmer winters is good news for heart patients.

Reply to  Richard Greene
May 11, 2024 8:27 am

I mentioned above that in the 2015 article it said moderately warm or cool weather kills far more people than extreme weather.

Reply to  scvblwxq
May 11, 2024 8:29 am

Colder or cooler weather causes our vessels to contract and that raises blood pressure to increase causing more heart attacks and strokes in the cooler months.

jshotsky
May 10, 2024 2:51 pm

I think most people don’t realize that every written word, every invention and everything we know happened in THIS interglacial period. It happened after the last glacial period, more specifically during the last half of this interglacial period. About the last 6000 years.
I think also that most people have no idea that the earth emits over 95% of the annual CO2 by itself, and if ALL human CO2 was stopped, it would have no effect on climate. None whatsoever. But that won’t stop people from spending trillions of dollars to reduce CO2 instead of improving the human condition by improving the availability of clean drinking water and sanitation facilities. That money would actually save lives, unlike the CO2 spending.
The only thing to fear is a return to a real glacial period, which would kill over half of the world’s existing population due to crop failure and disease. Just look at what happened in the LITTLE ice age for a preview of what would happen in a ‘REAL’ glacial period.

AlbertBrand
Reply to  jshotsky
May 10, 2024 3:03 pm

Every 12000 years the wobble in the earth’s orbit moves the seasons by six months; that is the northern hemisphere will have its winter in June and summer in January. However if you follow this logic 6000 years ago and also 6000 years in the future there will be no seasons as the wobble will be at right angles to the direction of the sum. Was this why Egypt flourished at that time. There seems to be no mention of seasons anywhere. Is no one aware of this or am I all wrong?

Reply to  AlbertBrand
May 10, 2024 3:54 pm

The axis of Earth’s tilt wobbles, but never goes anywhere near zero. The precession of the equinoxes simply means that the point in the Earth’s orbit in which a solstice or equinox occurs slowly changes over time. The actual tilt varies (wobbles) slightly, but only by a few degrees.

Reply to  AlbertBrand
May 10, 2024 4:18 pm

You are wrong. 6000 years ago there were seasons.

MarkW
Reply to  AlbertBrand
May 10, 2024 4:37 pm

ANcient Egypt depended on the annual flooding of the Nile. Annual flooding is the very definition of seasons.

Richard Greene
Reply to  AlbertBrand
May 11, 2024 4:51 am

Your brain is wobbling

Rud Istvan
Reply to  jshotsky
May 10, 2024 3:38 pm

Almost, but not quite. The invention of stone tools and fire happened before. Writing, agriculture, and all else important like beer—yup during this interglacial.

jshotsky
Reply to  Rud Istvan
May 10, 2024 4:23 pm

Agreed. The first stone tools were multiple ice ages ago…about 2+ million years. The actual ‘stone age’. But as you know, that wasn’t my point. They were not using 3D printers for those tools.

Reply to  jshotsky
May 10, 2024 4:18 pm

“…most people have no idea that the earth emits over 95% of the annual CO2 by itself, and if ALL human CO2 was stopped, it would have no effect on climate”.
That’s not what scientific research concludes. Do you have some special knowledge?

Mr.
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:31 pm

Nah, no special knowledge required.
We just have to be able to read and comprehend the earth’s long history on geological scales.
And not be a natural history “denier”.

Reply to  Mr.
May 10, 2024 4:32 pm

“No special knowledge required”. That’s what the know-nothings said.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:19 pm

You are the one that seem bereft of any actual scientific evidence.

You are the very epitome of a “know-nothing”

MarkW
Reply to  bnice2000
May 10, 2024 9:20 pm

He’s one of the faithful. Actual knowledge is not only not required, it’s actively discouraged.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 9:19 pm

So only know nothings know that water is wet?

Your irrational pronouncements are getting stranger by the hour.

jshotsky
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:34 pm

The answer is easily found using google. This from MIT:
The Earth’s natural carbon cycle moves a staggering amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) around our planet, says Daniel Rothman, MIT professor of geophysics. Some parts of the planet, such as the oceans and forests, absorb carbon dioxide and store it for hundreds or thousands of years. These are called natural carbon sinks. Meanwhile, natural sources of CO2 such as undersea volcanoes and hydrothermal vents release carbon. Altogether the planet absorbs and emits around 100 billion metric tons of carbon through this natural cycle every year, Rothman says.
That’s equivalent to over 350 billion tons of CO2. (Scientists often measure the carbon cycle in terms of the weight of carbon atoms, not whole molecules of carbon dioxide, because the carbon has the same weight no matter what form it takes as it moves between plants, ocean, atmosphere, and other parts of the natural world.)
This natural movement of carbon dwarfs humanity’s contribution: it amounts to ten times as much CO2 as humans produce through activities such as burning fossil fuels.

Reply to  jshotsky
May 10, 2024 4:43 pm

“This natural movement of carbon dwarfs humanity’s contribution”
Yes, that’s what the science says. And it also says that Earths natural sources and sinks are in balance, and cannot accomodate man’s annual 40 billion tonnes of CO2 emissions. Nor the man-caused emissions of CH4, N2O, and HFCs. So 45% of mankind’s CO2 emissions are absorbed by the atmosphere. Those annual CO2 emissions have increased atmospheric CO concentration by 48% since 1750.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:20 pm

Of course they accommodate the enhanced CO2

NATURE LUVS IT !! Plant biosphere is expanding and increasing

Reply to  bnice2000
May 12, 2024 9:57 am

You won’t find your incorrect response ones supported by any science

sherro01
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 7:47 pm

WaRREN,
Yes, that’s what the science says. And it also says that Earths natural sources and sinks are in balance”.
There is yet no known way to measure that sink-source balance with sufficient accuracy over sufficient time to confirm or deny it. Some people who are soft scientists simply find it comfortable to assume that there is a sink-source balance of zero. Proper science does not prgress via convenient assumptions.
If you think (wrongly) that the science says there is a balance, you should provide some links. Geoff S

Richard Greene
Reply to  sherro01
May 11, 2024 5:06 am

Manmade CO2 emissions
about +5 ppm a year

Atmospheric CO2 increase
about +2.5 ppm a year

CO2 absorbe by nature
about -2.5 ppm a year

Go find a child to explain the math to you

Reply to  sherro01
May 11, 2024 5:06 am

Why don’t you submit your contradictory analysis to a peer reviewed scientific journal and then we can have confidence in your work product? I only see opinion, however, and no science behind your assertions.

Rich Davis
Reply to  sherro01
May 11, 2024 3:40 pm

If the sources and sinks were in balance, we’d still have 7% CO2 and wouldn’t have any limestone mountains or the risk that in the next glaciation CO2 is going to fall below the point where plants die and then all animals die.

However, it’s a false claim that we depend on an assumption that natural sources and sinks are in balance to prove that rising CO2 is caused by fossil fuel emissions.

The sources and sinks are certainly not in balance. The sinks absorb the equivalent of about half of the emissions on top of all the nature-sourced CO2. If we emit 40 Gt in a year but concentration goes up only by the amount corresponding to 20Gt, the rest has to go into the natural sinks. Nature cannot be a net source and a net sink at the same time.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 12:34 am

Abject garbage. I doubt our annual emissions equate to more than a couple of extra CO2 molecules per tree leaf on the planet. Then consider that every living thing on the planet on the land, in the sea and in the air is composed of carbon compounds that were once in the air as CO2. The claim that nature cannot cope with our contribution or that the carbon cycle was somehow magically in perfect equilibrium before we started to burn coal and oil is a complete fairy tale designed to fool the gullible. And here you are.

Reply to  Right-Handed Shark
May 11, 2024 3:57 am

”You doubt” is opinion, without scientific basis. What I posted is scientific fact, the result of tons of scientific research, and can be verified in the body of scientific literature.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 4:19 am

What you post is NOT scientific anything, it is mindless regurgitated propaganda mantra…

.. and you are obviously totally clueless of the difference.

You are just yapping mindlessly, without having the vaguest clue what you are talking about… and cannot present a single piece of actual real science to back up any of the arrant garbage you have spewed up..

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 7:24 am

What I posted is fact, logic and common sense which by themselves refute your “scientific fact”, if you’re so sure you are correct I suggest you organize a demonstration of the awesome power of CO2. One caveat though, it has to be in open atmosphere. You have yet to post one single paper, peer reviewed or otherwise, that proves CO2 affects temperatures on a planetary scale. (A clue: infra red wavelengths cannot penetrate the surface of water beyond a few microns, so that’s 70% of the “globe” that cannot be “warmed” by CO2)

Reply to  Right-Handed Shark
May 11, 2024 5:12 pm

Experiments showing the greenhouse effect caused by atmospheric CO2 are conducted in high school science labs all over the United States, and the world. Did you sleep through that class?

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 8:35 am

The IPCC models omit the most important sources of heat and heat variability, the Sun and the clouds. You shouldn’t trust them at all.

Reply to  scvblwxq
May 11, 2024 5:06 pm

Source?

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 10:08 am

Anything that is “peer reviewed” is fact and may never be questioned?

It must be nice to live in a world where thinking for yourself is never needed.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 2:03 pm

You can question all you want. At the end of the day I want a trustworthy scientific source. You’re not it.

resiurkigam
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 2:14 pm

It seems that all of your arguments are appeal to authority. Why?

Reply to  resiurkigam
May 11, 2024 4:44 pm

Two reasons:

  1. I always go to experts in the field who know more than me when I can. You know, as in this analogy: going to the doctor instead of a janitor when you need medical care
  2. I find the gish gollop method of argumentation by science deniers quite tiresome.
MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 11:17 am

The problem is that you have limited science, to anything you agree with.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 3:45 pm

You define a trusty source as being anyone who tells you what you want to hear, and dismiss everything that you disagree with.
The sad thing is, you actually believe that this is what science is.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 14, 2024 5:46 pm

The nonsense you think is “science” is nothing but opinion. There is no empirical evidence to support their narrative, or it would have been gleefully shoved in our collective faces years ago.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 3:25 pm

Beeton is correct on this point. Those of you desperate to claim that fossil fuel emissions are not the cause of increasing CO2 concentration are strengthening his argument that we skeptics are scientifically inept.

He is correct, but it doesn’t mean that higher CO2 is the least bit dangerous or that higher CO2 necessarily causes any significant warming.

More CO2 has at a bare minimum been responsible for avoiding millions of famine deaths. We missed extinction by just a bit at the last glacial maximum. CO2 is the gas of life.

There is NO CLIMATE EMERGENCY!

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 4:03 pm

Thank you.
Whether CS is at the bottom of the range or at the high end, the effects on storm disasters, species extinction, tropical disease moving north, rising sea levels and acidification of the oceans and the threat to the worlds marine food supply are well documented in the science. This is not the time for seat of the pants guessing, but for scientific analysis — which can be found in the IPCC 6th Assessment

Rich Davis
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 6:03 pm

There is no credible correlation between mild warming and severe storms. The evidence runs in the opposite direction.

Likewise it is counterintuitive to claim that milder weather which opens a larger habitable range would do anything but reduce the pressure on endangered species. They are threatened by loss of habitat unrelated to the climate. Whereas the preferred non-solution you are pushing with windmills is in fact threatening them both on land and at sea. Polar bears are fat and happy.

Sea level has been rising very slowly throughout the Holocene and claims of acceleration are bogus.

Slightly less alkaline sea water has no actual effect on marine life. Coral are thriving. Bleaching is hyped as dying coral but it is actually a normal process in their life cycle.

Overfishing is not caused by slightly nicer weather.

All of your scare stories have been debunked at length many times on this site.

There is NO CLIMATE EMERGENCY!

Reply to  Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 6:31 pm

You don’t find any of that in the scientific research. In fact, most of your claims are contradicted in the science. I go with the Science.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 3:48 pm

So when what you are told to believe contradicts the actual data, you will go with what you are told.

Tell me, have you ever used your brain to do anything other than keep your eyes from falling into your skull?

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 3:46 pm

What is really sad, is that everything in your list has been shown to be pure fantasy, but you will only believe what you are told to believe, such a good little troll.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 14, 2024 1:18 pm

Based on what? They are aren’t measuring any of it. Assumptions estimates and guesswork are not “data.”

Richard Greene
Reply to  jshotsky
May 11, 2024 4:59 am

“This natural movement of carbon dwarfs humanity’s contribution”

So what?

Nature has been a net CO2 absorber most likely for all 4.5 billion years

The carbon cycle did not change that trend

Volcanoes did not change that trend

The very long term trend is less CO2 in the atmosphere and more CO2 sequestered as rocks, shells, oil, natural gas and coal.

Burning fossil fuels started a new trend of putting (sequestered as carbon) CO2 back into the atmosphere. And nature is still a net CO2 absorber.

Reply to  Richard Greene
May 11, 2024 5:16 am

It’s untrue that there is some sort of permanent “net absorbing” trend . Atmospheric CO2 has varied from 180 to 280 ppm and back again, several times over the last 800,000 years, as earths sources and sinks varied from net absorption to net addition.
It is true that for the last several hundred years, the earth has been in a slow cooling trend as natural sinks absorbed more CO2 than natural sources produced, that is, until man caused CO2 emissions resulted in a net addition of CO2 to earths system.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 8:51 am

CO2 has been over 2,000 ppm in the past. The ice age the Earth is in has cooled the oceans causing them to absorb CO2.

Richard Greene
Reply to  scvblwxq
May 11, 2024 9:21 am

The current ice age had 100,000 year
cooling / warming cycles of up to +/- 6 degrees C. that caused a change in the oceans / atmosphere CO2 levels by about +/- 100 ppm

MarkW
Reply to  scvblwxq
May 11, 2024 10:09 am

There have been times when CO2 ranged from 5000 to 7000ppm.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 1:08 pm

Yes, when the sun was 15% dimmer. And even so the climate was hotter.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 3:51 pm

One, the sun wasn’t 15% dimmer 100 million years ago.
Two, if 15% dimmer is enough to compensate for CO2 levels being 20 to 30 times higher than pre-industrial, then you have just proven that CO2 is a very weak greenhouse gas and there is no way that a mere doubling can have any impact on climate.

Reply to  scvblwxq
May 11, 2024 5:05 pm

All true. But so what?

Richard Greene
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 9:15 am

180 ppm is the lowest estimated CO2 level in 4.5 billion years

The long term trend was down

The variations from 100,000 year M cycles did not stop the long term NATURAL downtrend.

In fact, 180 ppm is too low for C3 plants an it is very good news that humans started “recycling CO22”

“It is true that for the last several hundred years, the earth has been in a slow cooling trend” 

You must be thinking of another planet.
Earth has been warming since the late 1600’s, probably warming since the peaks from 5000 to 9000 years ago and much warmer than 20000 years ago.

Reply to  Richard Greene
May 11, 2024 2:14 pm

I agree with the argument that atm CO2 was declining formuch of the planets history, but I don’t think you can argue that trend was operating over the last 800,000 years when, as you point out, atm CO 2 was varying between 180 and 280 ppm due to Milankovitch cycles. Wouldn’t it be more indicative of a stable .pattern , until interruption by Man-caused emissions overwhelmed those cycles?

And indeed the earth was in a slow natural cooling trend for about the last 1400 years, until the industrial era and its co2 emissions took over.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:43 pm

Yes… it is what real scientists have concluded.

The year flux of CO2 is about 95% natural, 5% human.

It only takes say a 10% change in natural emissions from natural warming, to swamp any human CO2.

Richard Greene
Reply to  bnice2000
May 11, 2024 5:09 am

Your science is all fluxed up, as usual
Nature is a net CO2 absorber and has always been a net CO2 absorber in the very long run

Reply to  Richard Greene
May 11, 2024 1:53 pm

Poor RG.. all you can do is blather, and DENY.

Richard Greene
Reply to  jshotsky
May 11, 2024 4:50 am

“I think also that most people have no idea that the earth emits over 95% of the annual CO2 by itself,” 

Only clueless people say that

You are counting carbon cycle emissions and ignoring carbon cycle absorption that slightly exceeds the emissions.

That is like claiming the stock market goes up every year by ignoring all the down years.

Reply to  Richard Greene
May 11, 2024 7:35 am

Nobody knows how many sources there are. Known active volcanos are only one small part of the story. Dormant volcanos, even those declared extinct can still outgas CO2, see Lake Nyos for an example, and there are an unknown number of sub-sea volcanos and sea mounts. The claim that it is only human emissions that stay in the atmosphere and accumulate year on year is abject garbage.

Only clueless people say that”

Richard Greene
Reply to  Right-Handed Shark
May 11, 2024 9:33 am

Volcanoes erupting are rare
The last underseas one was January 2022.

Since the mid-19th century, Mauna Loa’s Northeast Rift Zone has erupted nine times: in 1843, 1852, 1855–1856, 1880–1881, 1899, 1935–1936, 1942, 1984, and 2022.

Humans emit at least 100x more CO2 than volcanoes, and 2x lore CO2 than the inrease of atmospheric CO2

And nature, including volcanoes is a NET CO2 absorber

All the volcanoes, vents and wildfires in history were unable to stop the 4.5 billion years atmospheric CO2 decline.

There are only two players in the “CO2 game”

Man

and

Nature

Reply to  Richard Greene
May 11, 2024 1:55 pm

Man produces about 5% of the annual CO2 flux.

The rest is from nature, and the natural flux is increasing.

It is called The Carbon Cycle”

Try to learn something each day.. dont’ get stuck in ignorance.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Right-Handed Shark
May 11, 2024 3:51 pm

RHS
It’s true nobody can measure or necessarily even identity all the fluxes. But we can measure the concentration and estimate the amount of fuel burned with at least 50% accuracy. And that’s all the information we need (plus high school algebra) to show that it has to be fossil fuel emissions that causes CO2 concentration to rise.

And no, that doesn’t mean that fossil fuel emissions are causing warming or that any warming is dangerous.

There is NO CLIMATE EMERGENCY!

Rich Davis
Reply to  jshotsky
May 11, 2024 7:26 am

You’re mixing good sense with nonsense and undermining your argument.

Fossil fuels emissions correspond to 200% of the CO2 increase in the atmosphere. Nature is a net sink of CO2, absorbing about half of our excess. Yes, around 96% of the seasonal flux into the atmosphere is from natural sources, but 102% of the natural outgassing is subsequently absorbed by natural sinks.

The fact that our emissions are slowly increasing CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is not something we need to try to deny. It is doing no harm. If it is slightly enhancing the natural greenhouse effect, it’s all beneficial. We don’t have enough economically extractable fossil fuels left to raise temperatures to anything approaching dangerous.

May 10, 2024 2:58 pm

Higher solar output over the last 100 years probably has led to more outgassing of CO2 from the oceans. Also, the charts of CO2 over the past 800,000, years probably don’t have the resolution to catch a few hundred-year peaks in CO2 before the next glacial period.
https://lasp.colorado.edu/lisird/data/historical_tsi

Clouds can reflect up to 90% of the incoming solar radiation and cover about 67 percent of the Earth’s surface, yet the IPCC models don’t consider and forecast them or the Sun whose magnetic field can influence the number of cosmic rays that strike the Earth and. can cause more clouds

Considering that the CO2 influence is only a small fraction of a percent of solar radiation, that seems like the influence of clouds completely overshadows the effect of CO2.

Reply to  scvblwxq
May 10, 2024 4:16 pm

Over the last 50 years the sun has slightly cooled –during a period of the fastest rate of warming in millennia. The sun doesn’t explain the warming

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:46 pm

The sun has cooled from a grand solar maximum.

The total absorbed solar radiation has been climbing.

The sun and the changes in cloud cover explain all the slight warming

Absorbed-solar-radiation
Richard Greene
Reply to  bnice2000
May 11, 2024 5:16 am

The sun and cloud cover percentage do not explain the primary warming at night, which would be a likely symptom of greenhouse warming

Reply to  Richard Greene
May 11, 2024 1:56 pm

Dry nights cool rapidly…. nothing to block the radiative flow..

… didn’t you know that, either ??

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:47 pm

30 year trailing TSI shows the sun is indeed the driver of warming ..

Kopp-30-year-trailing-TSI
Richard Greene
Reply to  bnice2000
May 11, 2024 5:17 am

Both satellites and sunspot couts reflect less solar energy at TOA while the planet was warming after 1975.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:16 pm

The oceans store up the heat over hundreds of years so the higher solar irradiance during the last 100 years has warmed it releasing CO2 and warming the Earth.

Reply to  scvblwxq
May 10, 2024 5:36 pm

No, during the period of fastest warming – 1970s and later — the sun’s output slightly diminished. So changes in solar irradiance cannot be the cause of post 1970s global warming.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:50 pm

FAIL… Absorbed solar radiation has continued to increase.

Absorbed-solar-radiation
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:53 pm

Slight drop since 2000 through SC24, 25

But the period from 1960-2000 was a very strong period of solar input.

TIM_TSI_Reconstructionheating
Reply to  bnice2000
May 10, 2024 8:19 pm

I’ll try a very simple analogy for your very simple mind.

Suppose you are heating up a large tub of water, and you have the heater on at “9” on the dial..

After a while, but nowhere near “hot” yet, you turn it down to “8”.

Does the water cool down ?

Anthony Banton
Reply to  bnice2000
May 11, 2024 6:54 am

“…a very strong period of solar input.”

Right!
So a peak of around 0.5 Wm^2 above peaks around 150 ya.
Equating to 0.5×0.7(albedo)x0.25(Earth’s solar SW absorbing surface)
=0.0875 W/m^2 of increased TSI

The 11yr solar cycle produces a variation of around twice that.

Yes, a massive “very strong” (sarc)

Richard Greene
Reply to  bnice2000
May 11, 2024 9:36 am

Sunspot counts are a BS proxy

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:55 pm

The only atmospheric warming this century has come from two major El Nino events in 20016 and current

Before the 2016 event, there was a near zero trend.

From 2017 to the start of this El Nino, was a COOLING trend.

Absolutely no signature of human causation.

Richard Greene
Reply to  bnice2000
May 11, 2024 5:19 am

No signature of any intelligence in a BeNasty comment

Reply to  Richard Greene
May 11, 2024 1:58 pm

Poor RG.. has no counter to the facts… so has a tantrum.

Very funny !!

jshotsky
Reply to  scvblwxq
May 10, 2024 4:22 pm

The reason the IPCC doesn’t model clouds is because the charter of the IPCC is to identify HUMAN CAUSED climate change. Natural climate change is not in their bailiwick. That allows them to make outrageous claims while ignoring all natural change.
You might have to use the ‘wayback machine’ to see the original charter. They have edited that part out of the current charter and disappeared all references to it. But it is there – I have read it, and I just might have a copy in my email system which goes back to the 90’s.

Mr.
Reply to  jshotsky
May 10, 2024 4:36 pm

I think Donna Laframboise has documented the history of the WMO / UNFCCC / IPCC in her various publications.

https://nofrakkingconsensus.com/

This is a good expose –
The Delinquent Teenager Who Was Mistaken for the World’s Top Climate Expert

Richard Greene
Reply to  scvblwxq
May 11, 2024 5:14 am

Higher solar output over the last 100 years 

Data free speculation

TOA TSI has declined since the 1970s so did not cause any global warming after 1975

Solar energy reaching Earth’s surface is claimed to have increased in the past two decades but the estimate margin of error is likely too large to be sure.

Even if true, lower SO2 emissions are one cause.

May 10, 2024 3:00 pm

Humans (and all of the other Hominids) are a tropical species. The world is definitely much colder than the optimum temperature for humans.

Cereal grain crop production is undoubtedly the most important “weather related” item on the planet. As the CO2 content of the atmosphere has been increasing, the total cereal grain production and the production per acre/hectare has been increasing substantially.

Anyone that wants it colder, is either a misanthrope, a scientific illiterate, or a Green Bay Packers fan.

Scissor
Reply to  pillageidiot
May 10, 2024 4:25 pm

Could be all three.

J Boles
May 10, 2024 3:21 pm

No way can we ever reduce C02, only increase, thank goodness!

Reply to  J Boles
May 10, 2024 3:48 pm

About $US4 trillion spent and CO2 keeps increasing at the same rate
https://www.co2.earth/monthly-co2.

Reply to  J Boles
May 10, 2024 5:34 pm

Yep.. that is the HILARIOUS thing about all this Net-Zero nonsense.

a) it will have absolutely ZERO effect on global CO2 emissions (actually, will probably increase them)

b) since CO2 has no effect on climate anyway, Net-zero will accomplish absolutely nothing except the down-grading of their own societies when they fall into the trap of idiotically following that anti-science virtue-seeking agenda.

Reply to  J Boles
May 10, 2024 5:34 pm

editing a double post …

Rud Istvan
May 10, 2024 3:32 pm

Nuanced discussions of complex problems are always appreciated. But I don’t think the core of the ‘climate problem’ is all that complex (although climate itself is). It is rather straightforward, and has just two main components.

A lot of western academics have built their careers on ‘the climate problem’, despite the facts that their big predictions did NOT materialize (sea level rise did not accelerate, Arctic summer sea ice did not disappear,…), and that their climate models are PROVABLY wrong. Heck, the models cannot even hindcast 30 years in real temperature terms after their parameters are ‘tuned’ to best hindcast. CMIP hides this by only comparing model temperature anomalies, rather than actual model temperatures that vary by about +/-5C in tuned 30 yr hindcasts!

A renewables ‘Carbon industrial complex’ grew up to mitigate the problem academics like Hansen and Mann falsely claimed existed. It would not be viable but for massive subsidies, which politicians granted because academics said there was a big problem for which renewables (not nuclear) were the solution. As grid penetration grows, it becomes ever more evident that there is no non-ff solution for renewable intermittency. The whole industry would fail at grid scale but for fossil fuel fired backup dispatchable generation—needed about 70-80% of the time given actual renewable capacity factors.

And now we have the western world literally jumping the shark. Take Biden’s USA. Heavy truck BEV will never meaningfully exist no matter what Biden wants—trucks should haul cargo, not batteries. Biden’s newly EPA mandated CCUS exists only one place in the world, Boundary Dam #4, where it does NOT work well. At best 60% uptime, and a 35% parasitic load when up. So an unlawful EPA interpretation of specific 1972 CAA provisions.

And all for nothing because China and India won’t play the West’s climate game. They depend on coal to advance their economies. And they will advance.

Editor
Reply to  Rud Istvan
May 10, 2024 3:58 pm

The western world can’t literally jump the shark. There isn’t a water-ski large enough. Otherwise, all good!

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Mike Jonas
May 10, 2024 4:08 pm

Ok. Figuratively jumping the shark. I stand sort of corrected.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
May 10, 2024 4:08 pm

“…trucks should haul cargo, not batteries.”
That extra 10,000 or 20,000 lbs of batteries – let’s see, what might that do to the motive energy required? And tire wear? And road damage? Etc.

Edit: I looked it up and it seems there will only be a 2000 lb extra allowance above the 80,000 lb gross weight limit. But still, all the less-than-full-load miles still matter.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
May 10, 2024 4:15 pm

Sorry but there are no failed predictions in the scientific literature, None. You posted a series of straw men.

Scissor
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:30 pm

LOL.

Reply to  Scissor
May 10, 2024 11:54 pm

I’ve missed Griff too.

Mr.
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:42 pm

Funny.
I went to Glacier National Park a year ago just to see where those glaciers used to be – you know, the ones that the official signs used to say would be all gone by 2020.

Those buggers were still very much there, and I swear one of the peaks clearly took the shape of a raised middle finger.

Reply to  Mr.
May 10, 2024 4:46 pm

None of the scientific research ever predicted glaciers in the park would be gone by 2020. But glaciers are substantially reduced , in case you havent noticed.

Scissor
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:58 pm

That’s the thing about interglacials. Nevertheless, Schneider and others were worried about the glacial growth from the 40’s to the 70’s continuing. He was wrong fortunately.

Reply to  Scissor
May 10, 2024 5:04 pm

Schneider didn’t predict what you say. In fact he made no prediction.
He said that IF aerosols continued to be present in the atmosphere for extended periods, THEN the world COULD experience a cooling trend. Schneider later pointed out that aerosol lifetimes were much more limited, and it was likely the world would continue to warm.

Scissor
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:15 pm

You obviously don’t know what you are talking about.

Science, 1971, Rasool and Schneider, “Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide and Aerosols: Effects of Large Increases on Global Climate.”
An increase by only a factor of 4 in global aerosol background concentration may be sufficient to reduce the surface temperature by as much as 3.5°K. If sustained over a period of several years, such a temperature decrease over the whole globe is believed to be sufficient to trigger an ice age.”

Then came China. As I said, he was wrong.

Reply to  Scissor
May 10, 2024 5:28 pm
  1. Just as I said, Schneider theorized that IF aerosols were sustained over several years, etc. He did not predict that they WOULD be sustained, or that the world would cool.
  2. China had nothing to do with aerosols not being sustained. The speculation of quadrupling was based on the rapidly increasing concentration of aerosols like sulfur dioxide leading up to the 1970’s. However, with the adoption of policies like the US Clean Air Act, aerosol emissions began to decrease in the late 1970’s.
MarkW
Reply to  Scissor
May 10, 2024 9:24 pm

Like most alarmists, he just makes it up as he goes.
He hopes bluster will substitute for actual data.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 9:24 pm

If it’s a failed prediction, then obviously the paper wasn’t scientific.
Therefore there are no failed predictions in scientific papers.

Your evasions are getting weirder and more pathetic all the time.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 4:52 am

thats a lie. I never said the first line.

Anthony Banton
Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 7:02 am

The accepted consensus science is what is published in the IPCC ARs.

Pse find and report any predictions that have failed since the first AR was published in 1990.

And yes, “failed” means a prediction that should have run it’s course by 2024.

https://archive.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/publications_ipcc_first_assessment_1990_wg1.shtml

MarkW
Reply to  Anthony Banton
May 11, 2024 10:17 am

First off, consensus science is an oxymoron.
Secondly, the IPCC only prints studies that support the politically pre-determined position.
Thirdly, the Exuctive summary written prior to the chapters being finished and the chapter summaries are required to conform to the executive summary.

Anthony Banton
Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 11:40 am

consensus science is an oxymoron.”

No, it’s just stating the obvious.
There is no complex system that has unequivocal answers to all aspects of itself + the science is ongoing and new techniques and technologies are being applied all the time.

I know that the echo-chamber here requires certainty of 101%.
But the rational among us know that is not possible.
Hence a consensus has to be obtained..

IPCC only prints studies that support the politically pre-determined position.”

Cart before the horse.
The IPCC prints the science – to which AGW deniers attribute political motivations.
That is your ideology again justifying denying the science (along with the likes of wanting 101% certainty and “knowing” that scientists are altering data to fit your narrative).
Like I’ve said – there is no refuting that sort of thinking.
Cannot get through your ideological carapace of denial.

But it’s fun watching the slow-motion car-crash exhibited by the contortions of logic required here.

MarkW
Reply to  Anthony Banton
May 12, 2024 4:00 pm

Reality was never one of your close acquaintances, was it.

In real science, they don’t write the conclusions before the work has been finished, yet that is what the IPCC does.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:47 pm

Fascinating how the predictions suddenly cease to exist when they turn out to be false.
Up till then, it’s full hype ahead.

Reply to  MarkW
May 10, 2024 4:49 pm

Then cite one of the failed predictions by scientists. (You won’t find ANY)

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:24 pm

So you are saying all the failed predictions didn’t come from psuedo-scientists like Wadhams, Viner, Hansen, Potsdam asylum…. etc etc..

… but from pressitutes.

So why didn’t the actual scientists come out and say.. no, we didn’t make that prediction.

You have failed yet again.

Reply to  bnice2000
May 11, 2024 12:00 am

Warren, aka Griff Mk2, will tell you that all these predictions contained the words “could”, “if”, “may”, “likely” and many other caveats and so haven’t failed by any stretch of the imagination.
He’s been primed on that at least.

Reply to  Ben Vorlich
May 11, 2024 11:52 am

If you were to say ‘if the Russians set off Nuclear bombs, the US will as well’. That’s not a prediction that the US is going to set off nuclear bombs, now is it?

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:24 pm

So you are saying all the failed predictions didn’t come from psuedo-scientists like Wadhams, Viner, Hansen, Potsdam asylum…. etc etc..

… but from pressitutes.

So why didn’t the actual scientists come out and say.. no, we didn’t make that prediction.

You have failed yet again.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 9:25 pm

WUWT has maintained a list of all the failed predictions.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 4:51 am

And there are none in the body of peer reviewed science.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 10:20 am

So what? The predictions were made, they were published by the press.
They exist and none of your so called scientists objected.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 5:28 am

It’s a long list.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 11, 2024 5:30 am

A long list with no entries that meet the definition of failed predictions in the scientific literature.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 10:20 am

Your desperation is showing.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 8:31 am

Here’s one. You lose.

“According to Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia, within a few years winter snowfall will become “a very rare and exciting event”. “Children just aren’t going to know what snow is,” he said.”

MarkW
Reply to  mkelly
May 11, 2024 10:24 am

Warren is taking the fall back position that unless the prediction is made in a published, peer reviewed paper, then it doesn’t count.

Even if one of his so called experts makes a public pronouncement that is published in all the papers and not questioned by any of the other so called experts, it doesn’t count.

ANd when that fails, he will invent some other ridiculous requirement so that he can continue to ignore the obvious.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 2:00 pm

The question is which is more reliable, scientific research reviewed by experts in the field for errors, or papers that are not reviewed by experts. The problem is that there is a tremendous amount of junk science in the climate field, much of it seen on WUWT. In particular, by non scientists claiming, “Oh experts don’t know science any better than me”, when “me” can be someone with no training in the sciences whatsoever, but thinks he knows as much as experts in the field. Well I’ve got news for these self important know nothings: you wouldn’t take your child to a barber for major surgery, and I don’t go to you and your nonsense claims for my science.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 4:03 pm

You really do have a high opinion of this mythical peer review.
Shows how little you know of the process for approving papers.

Then again, ignorance seems to be the only talent you have ever developed.

Reply to  mkelly
May 11, 2024 2:20 pm

Nope. That’s not from the body of published scientific research.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 2:58 pm

So lying only happens if you are under oath in a court of law?

Reply to  mkelly
May 11, 2024 4:56 pm

Don’t know what you’re talking about.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 4:05 pm

Not knowing seems to be your greatest talent.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 10:18 am

Waddam predicted that the Arctic would be largely free of ice in the summer by now.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 5:00 pm

No such statement in the body of peer reviewed research.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:48 pm

Now that is just funny !! Denial at its most delusional.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 10:23 pm

You are a very ignorant man, here is a sample of failed predictions made by prominent warmist/alarmist scientists:

Ice Free Forecasts

LINK

Reply to  Sunsettommy
May 11, 2024 4:00 am

None of these appear to be failed predictions from the scientific literature. Cite just one of them and we can discuss.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 4:23 am

WOW.. you have just accused all these scientists of DELIBERATELY LYING to make headlines.

Of making comments to the press that aren’t backed by their literature.

You obviously have a very low opinion of them… as well you should.

Pretty DISGUSTING behaviour from any scientist.. wouldn’t you agree. !

MarkW
Reply to  bnice2000
May 11, 2024 10:25 am

I doubt he has thought through any of the claims he’s been making.

Reply to  bnice2000
May 11, 2024 11:26 am

If there are no falsifiable predictions then it’s not even an hypothesis, far less a theory and no where near a fact

Reply to  Ben Vorlich
May 11, 2024 11:40 am

It’s a well accepted theory among researching scientists in the field

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 4:08 pm

Just shows how unscientific the scientists in this field have become.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 15, 2024 3:55 am

“Well accepted” does not equal “science.” If your so-called “scientists” cannot or will not test their pet hypothesis with FALSIFIABLE predictions, then what they are doing is activism, not science.

May 10, 2024 3:44 pm

It is too cold to live year-round in most places outside of the tropics without houses, heating, and warm clothes.

Below around 60F(16C) hypothermia can set in causing death.

The facts on the right of this page say that the Global Temperature is 58F(15C). That includes the Tropics so the temperature outside the tropics probably averages around 45F(7C). American Indians moved south during the colder months and birds fly south every year to escape the cold winters.

Reply to  scvblwxq
May 10, 2024 4:02 pm

It is too cold to live year-round in most places outside of the tropics without houses, heating, and warm clothes.”

I think even the Neanderthals figured that out. So did the Inuit (who don’t migrate thousands of miles like birds for the winter…).

Rud Istvan
Reply to  johnesm
May 10, 2024 4:20 pm

Inuit winter igloos were very cleverly designed. A hard snow block half dome, with a narrower long half dome entrance away from the prevailing wind. Very small hole at the top to exhaust burning blubber smoke to keep the interior warm—above freezing. The thing would seal itself off, and was never meant to be permanent,

Reply to  Rud Istvan
May 11, 2024 8:25 am

In survival training we had to learn basics of building one. As I remember the entrance is lower than the living area to keep “heavier” cold air away from the steeped up sleeping platform. You are correct about the hole and it was offset away from TDC. The last thing was never eat snow to quench thirst as you used up too much body heat melting snow.

May 10, 2024 4:08 pm

The last ice age started about 21,000 years ago.”

The last glacial maximum peaked about 21,000 years ago…

So would we rather have a 1-3°C temperature increase or 1-5 billion dead?”

The Left would like to get the population down to 500 million, so they really want about 7.5 billion dead.

Reply to  johnesm
May 10, 2024 4:12 pm

Smart Conservatives believe in Science — and the Scientific research universally concludes that Man’s activities –primarily the burning of fossil fuels — is rapidly warming the climate, and that the net effects are strongly negative.
What is your scientific source?

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:34 pm

Science is wrong sometimes but gets correct over time.

Reply to  scvblwxq
May 10, 2024 4:35 pm

It long ago discovered that the Deniers are wrong.

Scissor
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:03 pm

As a scientist Ph.D., that gives me two capital “D”s apparently.

Reply to  Scissor
May 10, 2024 5:07 pm

Science Denial isn’t necessarily limited to non-scientists, if they reject the overwhelming consensus of peer reviewed research and especially if they are not experts in that field

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:29 pm

You are definitely in a class of your own when it comes to science DENIAL and science fiction.

Waiting for you produce evidence … of anything !!

ps.. you do know fabricated junk consensus is not remotely “science”, don’t you.

Scissor
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 6:09 pm

There is no “Denial” position statement. Science is a methodology to improve the probability of opinions about how nature works.

On the topic of climate change, those aligned with the thinking of Nobel laureate John Clauser are in good company.

Reply to  Scissor
May 10, 2024 6:52 pm

In my opinion, you’re right about Denial — Deniers have no consistent explanation for the warming of the climate. But Science does. The research results can be found in the body of scientific literature, and the consistent finding is that only one hypothesis can explain the data: man-caused emissions of greenhouse gases are warming the climate.On the topic of Climate Change, Clauser has published no research in the field. All he’s published are opinion papers, eg “In my opinion, there is no real climate crisis”

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 8:08 pm

Your opinion is totally worthless. !!

You obviously have very little scientific understanding of anything to do with climate… or anything real, whatsoever..

You have proven you cannot present any actual scientific evidence, just links to political propaganda mantra and pap.

There are plenty of explanation for the very slight warming out of the coldest period in 10,000 years … and thank goodness for that…

There is absolutely no need to invent a spurious conjecture that remains unbacked by anything real in the way of science.

At least you admit that it is a hypothesis

… thing is, this hypothesis has never been verified by anything in the way of measurement or actual real science…

… and would have died a natural death ages ago if not for the massive funding and political and academic milage the AGW scammers have managed to create for themselves.

MarkW
Reply to  bnice2000
May 11, 2024 10:31 am

Like most trolls, Warren believes that science is whatever he has been told to believe it is.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 8:44 pm

The research results can be found in the body of scientific literature”

Yet you have been totally unable to find any of them.

You have been CONNED by mantra pap !

Reply to  bnice2000
May 11, 2024 5:37 am

Skeptics have examined the “body of scientific literature” and have found no evidence there that shows CO2 is the control knob of the Earth’s atmosphere.

How about pointing out some specific results you think confirm human-caused climate change.

You are the one asserting the results are there, so it is up to you to show what you are talking about.

Otherwise, you are just blowing smoke.

And, for the record, I was wrong. I said earlier that the way to shut up a climate alarmist was to ask them for evidence, and then you would never hear from them again. But you proved me wrong. Asking for evidence from you does nothing to dissuade you from your misunderstanding of the situation.

You are hanging on to your “False Reality Bubble” with both hands.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 11, 2024 5:59 am

You mean Deniers have examined the body of peer reviewed science, don’t understand it, and instead regurgitate talking points from their blogs and silos, while never publishing any of their analyses in scientific journals. In other words, they are too chicken (or incapable) to refute the work of thousands of scientists from around the world. That’s hardly a record to be proud of.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 10:32 am

In other words, anyone who fails to believe everything the politically declared experts says, is anti-science.

Anthony Banton
Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 11, 2024 7:13 am

Skeptics have examined the “body of scientific literature” and have found no evidence there that shows CO2 is the control knob of the Earth’s atmosphere.”

LOL:

If you mean “skeptics” on the likes of WUWT – then the term does not apply.

It is a self-fulfilling prophecy that it they would have “found no evidence”, on this minor echo-chamber of the Interweb.

Funny that, as near 100% of Earth scientists have come to the exact opposite conclusion.
Oh, that’s it.
Peeps here aren’t “skeptics” are they (?).
They are AGW deniers.

Big difference!
Absolutely NO evidence would suffice.
There is always the “scam”/manipulated data ploy to ensure a “with one bound he is free”.
In their own minds only of course.

MarkW
Reply to  Anthony Banton
May 11, 2024 10:35 am

Earth scientists????
Has the term climate scientists finally reached such extreme disrepute that you no longer use it?

Regardless, the claim that all the real scientists agree with this nonsense has been shredded so many times, that only those with no understanding of science still try to use it.

Anthony Banton
Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 11:25 am

Earth science or geoscience includes all fields of natural sciencerelated to the planet Earth.[1] This is a branch of science dealing with the physical, chemical, and biological complex constitutions and synergistic linkages of Earth’s four spheres: the biospherehydrosphere/cryosphereatmosphere, and geosphere (or lithosphere). Earth science can be considered to be a branch of planetary sciencebut with a much older history.”

LOL: “shredded so many times”.
Of course it has.
Here.
As I said a self fulfilling prophecy from an inconsequential climate science denying website.
Would be funny if you supported the science.
Or is that to logical for your ideologically addled dunning Kruger managed mind?

Reply to  Anthony Banton
May 12, 2024 10:02 am

“As I said a self fulfilling prophecy from an inconsequential climate science denying website.”

WUWT must be consequential enough that you feel the need to smear it.

Requiring climate alamists to prove their claims is not denying science. It is a request for those making claims to show some evidence, which is what science is based on.

Got any evidence, Anthony? Of course, you don’t. That’s because there is no evidence human-caused CO2 is doing anything to the Earth’s weather or climate.

The truth hurts sometimes.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 12, 2024 10:06 am

How do you rationalize your ignorance of the body of scientific research on the climate?

MarkW
Reply to  Anthony Banton
May 12, 2024 4:16 pm

Another troll who thinks that science is whatever he’s told to believe it is.

One constant with you and the other trolls is that you never actually try to defend what you believe is science, and you never try to refute the arguments of others.

You just declare that anyone who doesn’t believe as you do are wrong.

Anthony Banton
Reply to  MarkW
May 12, 2024 9:49 pm

Another troll who thinks that science is whatever he’s told to believe it is.”

So are we, as you, supposed to deny (this place is in no way sceptical), the science just because we are told it?

How much science do you conduct yourself, and so (in your mindset) be able to believe it?
I’ll wager that is not a problem for anything that does not rub against your ideological mindset.
Oh, I’ll pull another “appeal to authority” – I do have a career background in the field.

There you have even more reason to vent – what this place does best.

Reply to  Anthony Banton
May 12, 2024 9:55 am

“Funny that, as near 100% of Earth scientists have come to the exact opposite conclusion.”

Now you sound like Warren. Appeal to Authority much?

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 12, 2024 10:00 am

You think you have as much competence and credibility in climate science as the thousands of researching scientists in the field? If so, you have an astonishing case of Dunning Kruger

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 9:30 pm

The earth has been warming and cooling since the surface cooled enough for water to form. There is no clear explanation of any of those.
The world started to warm up in 1850, and CO2 had nothing to do with that, because CO2 levels weren’t changing.
We don’t need to provide an alternate explanation for the warming in order to demonstrate that CO2 can’t be responsible for it.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 4:21 am

The world began to warm noticeably about 1900. Atm CO2 concentration began to rise about 1750.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 10:37 am

CO2 concentrations only increased by about 10ppm from 1750 to 1900.
Large increases in CO2 concentrations did not start until about 1950.

In other words, 50 percent of the warming occurred prior to 90% of the CO2 being added.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 11:01 am

You make two errors:

  1. Warming is driven by the cumulative increase in atmospheric CO2, with a time lag, not emissions in any given year.
  2. There was little significant warming until about 1900, and the current rapid warming trend didn’t begin until about 1970.
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 12:11 pm

A time lag? Do you think that a CO2 molecule has to train for a few years and get match-fit before having an effect?

Reply to  Right-Handed Shark
May 11, 2024 1:00 pm

Did you forget that 93% of the excess heat goes into the oceans, and it takes a bit of time for that thermal inertia to give up its energy to the atmosphere?

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 10:05 am

“Did you forget that 93% of the excess heat goes into the oceans”

Are you claiming the atmosphere heats up the oceans?

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 12, 2024 10:08 am

I’m claiming that the oceans and atmosphere exchange heat energy

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 4:20 pm

Now you are really showing your ignorance.
Before the heat can get into the oceans, it first has to warm the air.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 4:18 pm

A time lag yes, a year or two at most.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 10:03 am

“The world began to warm noticeably about 1900.”

Based on what?

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 12, 2024 10:06 am

The data

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 4:50 am

You haven’t checked the data. Atm CO2 concentration started to rise in 1750, and its accumulation is the cause of global warming which began to be evident about 1900, due to the enhanced greenhouse effect.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 10:30 am

Since the end of the Holocene Optimum, there have been 5 warm periods.
Egyptian, Minoan, Roman, Medieval and Modern.
These warm periods have been regular at about 1000 years apart and each has been cooler than the previous. The cold periods between them have also been getting colder.

Nobody knows what caused the other 4, however the null hypothesis would be that whatever caused the first 4 is also causing the 5th.
CO2 could not have been the cause of any of the other 4.

Your belief that unless skeptics can come up with an alternative explanation as to what is causing the Modern warm period, that we must accept your belief that CO2 is causing it. Despite the fact that you can’t present any evidence to support your belief.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 11:11 am

None of those periods were global warming events –just regional. And the planet had not yet begun to experience the 40 billion tons of annual CO2 emissions happening now.
So far skeptics have no consistent hypothesis that explains modern day warming. But scientists do have a consistent theory. You can find it in any of the references I’ve supplied to you — basic science, taught in every University.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 4:22 pm

They were all global, as the studies have shown.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 9:28 pm

Of course the claim that there is an overwhelming consensus is another claim that has been shredded by actual scientists, but still touted by those who know nothing of science.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 4:38 am

The latest study, by Cornell University, shows a 99.9% consensus on the cause of the warming.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 10:38 am

Another study that requires one to already agree with the conclusion before being interviewed.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 10:54 am

Did you read it?

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 4:24 pm

Yet another study that questions only those who make their living off of producing the science that the politicians want.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 5:43 am

Appeals to Authority are a mainstay of Know-nothings (people who don’t really understand the subject).

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 9:27 pm

I”ve yet to see you actually prove that anyone is wrong.
Whining that everybody who agrees with you, agrees with you seems to be the limits of your intellectual abilities.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:49 pm

I posted this above:
This scientific study says that around 4.6 million people die each year from cooler weather compared to around 500,000 that die each from warmer weather. Where temperature is concerned, cold weather is the big killer of humans.
‘Global, regional and national burden of mortality associated with nonoptimal ambient temperatures from 2000 to 2019: a three-stage modelling study’ 
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanplh/article/PIIS2542-5196(21)00081-4/fulltext

This scientific study from 2015 says that cold weather kills 20 times as many people as hot weather and that moderately warm or cool weather kills far more people than extreme weather. When it is cool our blood vessels constrict to preserve heat raising our blood pressure and that causes more strokes and heart attacks in the cooler months.’Mortality risk attributable to high and low ambient temperature: a multi-country observational study’ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(14)62114-0/fulltext

Reply to  scvblwxq
May 10, 2024 4:51 pm

That is correct. And as the climate warms, the number of deaths from sustained extreme hot weather — heat waves — is increasing.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:26 pm

And since most warming is in colder areas…the number of deaths from COLD decreases rapidly.

And no… the deaths from heat have reduced markedly over several decades.. because of the availability of fossil fuel powered cooling.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:39 pm

The study I posted above says that most deaths are caused by moderate warming and deaths from cold are 20 times higher than deaths from heat.

Reply to  scvblwxq
May 10, 2024 5:41 pm

Yes. And the deaths from warming are increasing as the number and length of sustained periods of extreme heat increase.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 6:07 pm

Wrong.. Where is your evidence of increased warming deaths.

Where are these extended extreme heat periods you are yapping about?

Fossil fuel electricity has enabled a massive drop in climate related deaths, but still, many times more die from cold than from heat.

Warming , according to the AGW scammers will be mainly in colder countries and at night..

Your comment is meaningless, and all that will happen is a reduction in cold deaths.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 9:34 pm

I see you are another troll who actually believes that if you repeat a lie enough times, it becomes true.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 4:19 am

I’ve repeated the results of the scientific research done in the 20th and 21st centuries. . Whereas Science Deniers reject Science. Does that mean you’re one of them?

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 10:40 am

You’ve lied about what is science.
You have lied about what the science says.
You have even lied about what you’ve lied about.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 10:53 am

For the first time in your life, you might try reading the results of the scientific research conducted in the 20th and 21st centuries:
https://climate.nasa.gov
https://www.ipcc.ch/assessment-report/ar6/
https://www.nationalacademies.org/topics/climate
https://royalsociety.org/current-topics/climate-change-biodiversity/

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 2:03 pm

You have NEVER read any of those links.

If you did you would realise they contain NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.

They are just propaganda pap, designed for the low-information, low-intelligence AGW-cultists like you.

Be precise, show us where exactly in your links this evidence is.

That means you will have to read them for the first time… after you figure out what “scientific evidence” is.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 4:27 pm

You have repeated the conclusions reached by those who agrees with what you want to believe, and ignore everyone else.
Just like a good know nothing.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 9:44 pm

Where? Riyadh? Kuwait City? Singapore? Last I heard, they’re doing quite well…

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 4:26 pm

There is no increase in “sustained periods of extreme heat”.
Of course I should point out that “extreme heat” is nowhere actually defined. It is a meaningless phrase designed to scare those who only think they know what they are doing. Such as you Warre.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 9:33 pm

Real world data puts the lie to another one of your claims.
Regardless, year in and year out, 5 to 10 times more people die due to cold weather than hot.

BTW, there has been no increase in heat waves, much less severe ones.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 12, 2024 4:24 pm

Except the total number of people who are dying from weather related causes is going down.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:49 pm

There is no such evidence, if so you would have produced some by now.
Models are not scientific evidence.

Reply to  MarkW
May 10, 2024 4:54 pm

Models are not evidence, nor are they ever considered to be evidence by scientists. Rather, the evidence is the hard data taken from the physical world. It can be found in the peer reviewed scientific literature, or in reports by NASA, the IPCC, the National Academy of Sciences, and other scientific institutions.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 5:27 pm

Yet you cannot produce any of the “evidence” for CO2 warming.

We can wait.. a life time… You still won’t produce any.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 9:35 pm

Funny, the real world has no evidence to support any of your claims.

Perhaps if you spent some time outside your mom’s basement, you would know that already.

Reply to  MarkW
May 11, 2024 4:14 am

Funny, you haven’t reviewed any of the data taken by scientists in the 20th and 21st centuries.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 5:50 am

Obviously, you don’t know MarkW.

You probably shouldn’t argue with MarkW. It won’t turn out well for you.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
May 11, 2024 6:00 am

Ohh, I’m so scared.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 10:42 am

You lack the wits to be scared.

MarkW
Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 11, 2024 10:42 am

Funny, what you think is data, never is.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 4:54 pm

Yet you are totally incapable of producing any of this so-called science. Why is that ??

We can wait. ! We have been waiting for a long, long time.

Fossil fuels are what holds modern society together. A massive NET BENEFIT.

There is no way you or any of your AGW-cultists could get through a single day without the use of fossil fuels in some way or other.

The CO2 from fossil fuels enhances the natural carbon cycle that all life depends on.

There is no CO2 atmospheric warming signature in the whole 45 years of satellite data.

Reply to  Warren Beeton
May 10, 2024 6:35 pm

is rapidly warming the climate”

NO. It isn’t.

In fact, the only atmospheric warming this century has come from 2 major El Ninos.. neither of which has any human causation whatsoever.

There has been a slight warming since the coldest period in 10,000 years.

This has been totally beneficial to all life on Earth..

… as has the enhanced level of atmospheric CO2

There is absolutely ZERO down-side. !

Anthony Banton
Reply to  bnice2000
May 11, 2024 7:20 am

Now Mr Oxy

“In fact, the only atmospheric warming this century has come from 2 major El Ninos.. neither of which has any human causation whatsoever.”

I’m fascinated to know how this magic heat from your ENs is able to to be maintained in the atmosphere during the LN cycle between.
How come it does not radiate to space like all other terrestrial LWIR?

Now come, dont be shy pray tell.
Then publish a paper and prepare for your inevitable Nobel.

Reply to  Anthony Banton
May 11, 2024 2:05 pm

Poor AB doesn’t realise that the warm oceans water spreads out from an El Nino event.

Very sad to be so ignorant.. but he can’t help it.

Noted that you also avoid the “human causation” evidence.

That would be because YOU DON’T HAVE ANY. !

Anthony Banton
Reply to  bnice2000
May 11, 2024 9:49 pm

“Poor AB doesn’t realise that the warm oceans water spreads out from an El Nino event.”

Duh – Well of course!

And they cool … you know (?) mix with colder water/radiate to space/cool by evaporation.
Its called the 2nd LoT.

And yet they continue to warm the atmosphere despite having cooled to conditions prior to the warming, in your thinking !!

You are seriously puddled Oxy.

“Noted that you also avoid the “human causation” evidence.”

Because the ENSO cycle is not human caused …. Which further destroys your befuddled ideologically driven nonsense … if it were oceans would be boiling now.

Intuitive obvious to those who aren’t ideologically bigoted, is the fact that each successive EN has a higher base from which to reach a peak temp.
Now I wonder why that could be?

Oh, silly me – I implied the A reason.

Reply to  johnesm
May 10, 2024 4:27 pm

References for the Left wanting to get the population down to 500 million? The Left like the Right has many factions in different countries, but I’ve never heard or read that.

Reply to  scvblwxq
May 10, 2024 7:11 pm

Jane Goodall, Paul Ehlich, Georgia Guidestones (which has inspired some environmentalists). Granted, not all have agreed on that specific number, but it’s definitely a lot lower than what we have now.

sherro01
May 10, 2024 7:34 pm

“What do you think?”
Your words are the all-too-common result of writing about climate change through the narrow, restrictive lens of “environmentalism”. Hard scientists are not interested in word salads of consensus opinions from people in a cult of advocacy. Modern environmentalism is mostly anti-science.
Please give it up for something more worthwhile.
Geoff S

May 10, 2024 8:35 pm

a more accurate prediction 

Makes my head spin. How can any one prediction be more or less accurate than any other prediction at one point in time?

Ireneusz
May 10, 2024 11:53 pm

A sudden increase in the extent of ice in the Bering Sea.

comment image

Reply to  Ireneusz
May 11, 2024 12:46 am

I would suspect an error of some sort for that sort of increase…

…. although several other regions look like they have increased a bit as well.

May 11, 2024 1:33 am

I don’t need to name names but there are a few persistant posters here who are either deliberately putting out false information or ignorant of proper science. They take up way too much space on this platform as everybody piles up to respond and therefor trigger a (imo) useless back and forth.
So, instead of giving in to the urge to counter obvious falsehoods why don’t people simply IGNORE them? I assume the people on this platform already share a common belief so why address idiots and trolls? To correct the false information? Ok, but to who’s benefit? As i see it it is part of the problem. Feeding a monster. Keep correcting genuine posters and forget about feeding trolls who get a kick out of the exchange.

Reply to  ballynally
May 11, 2024 6:05 am

“I assume the people on this platform already share a common belief so why address idiots and trolls? To correct the false information? Ok, but to who’s benefit?”

There are a lot of people reading WUWT who don’t know all the details about CO2 and the Earth’s climate, so if someone makes claims that are not supported by science, then it is necessary to correct them, otherwise their climate change propaganda will be accepted by some people as fact.

A lot of people are easily influenced by rhetoric, so questioning the claims of climate alarmist trolls is useful.

And, a lot of people do not understand the scientific process and climate alarmist trolls allow us to explain it to not only the troll but to the general population, too.

This kind of education appears to be necessary considering that only seven percent of Chicago’s students are proficient in science. I imagine that percentage applies to a lot of other locations, too, since the National Education Association is teaching leftwing political propaganda to our students today, rather than math and science.

Rich Davis
May 11, 2024 2:18 am

A pedantic point perhaps, but I always found Dutch women to be very attractive, very few dykes over there.

Dikes on the other hand are an entirely different thing. The Dutch have indeed been building dikes for a long time.

The plural Dutch word is dijken.

Richard Greene
May 11, 2024 4:09 am

“What do you think?”

I think this article is lame, with many errors, and breaks a streak of a high percentage of good articles poste here. I suppose there has to be a clunker.

There is not much need to speculate about the benefits of global warming, which has been good news for the past 48 years

The USCRN warming since 2005 (+0.34 degrees C. per decade) has been faster than the IPCC’s average climate model prediction of +0.3 degrees per decade, which they claim is catastrophic

If you cherry pick GAT data, the average warming trend since 2007 was +0.3 degrees C. per decade.

By the IPCC definition, the world has had a catastrophic warming rate for almost 17 years and with NOAA’s USCRN, the US has had a catastrophic warming rate for almost 19 years

Was anyone harmed?
Did anyone even notice?

The US reached +1.5 degrees C. last year
Did anyone notice?
Is anyone troubled by warmer winters?

“But there are also negative feedback loops; more carbon dioxide and warmer weather means more plant growth.”

Not mentioned is the positive feedback of warmer oceans, 71% of our planet, outgassing some CO2 as they warm.

“So would we rather have a 1-3°C temperature increase or 1-5 billion dead?”

These numbers were pulled out of a hat

“Based on 1920s Climate-related Death Rate of ~0.25% and considering there are 8b people on earth now, 20m people each year are saved compared to 1920s levels”

Lives are saved by early warnings and better medical care. There are actually declining trends of extreme weather events with global warming, despite false opposite claims by Climate Howlers.

“The period of ice ages is about 21,000 years. The last ice age started about 21,000 years ago.”

There were at least five major ice ages throughout Earth’s history: the earliest was over 2 billion years ago, and the most recent one began approximately 3 million years ago and is still in progress

21,000 years ??

“Maybe we don’t want the world to get 1-3°C warmer. But we definitely don’t want it to get 14°C colder.”

Thi is a bizarre false dilemma fallacy.
The false dilemma fallacy occurs when someone misrepresents an issue by offering only two options (when more exist) or by presenting the options as mutually exclusive (when they are not).

“What should we actually worry about?
I’m concerned that by 2100 ,,,,” 

Don’t wait until 2100 to worry!
We have clueless politicians re-designing electric grids that were reliable, and trying to force their deluded Nut Zero down our throats with leftist fascism: Mandates, regulations, tax credits ad ignoring SCOTUS rulings on the EPA

May 11, 2024 6:51 am

What I think is that you haven;t actually questioned the CO2<==>temperature relationship at all.
It is by no means certain that elevated levels of CO2 will change anything very much, except plant growth,

There is an energy crisis caused by eschewing nuclear. There is no climate crisis at all,.

Sparta Nova 4
May 13, 2024 7:51 am

The highest objection I have to the climate models is a total lack of analysis of alternatives.
This is the flip side of the articles suggesting consequences of decisions need to be addressed prior to the decisions being implemented.

May 13, 2024 11:08 am

Inanity also rhymes. Please fact check what you repeat.