From NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT
By Paul Homewood
h/t Dave Ward
Money Mail can today reveal a timebomb looming in the second-hand market for electric vehicles (EVs).
Our investigation found that many EVs could become almost impossible to resell because of their limited battery life.
Experts said that the average EV battery guarantee lasts just eight years. After this time, the battery may lose power more quickly and so reduce mileage between charges.
Many EVs will lose up to 12 per cent of their charge capacity by six years. Some may lose even more.
Yet the cost of replacing an EV battery is astonishingly high, our research found.
A five-year-old Renault Zoe costs £9,100 but a new battery will set you back £24,124
In some cases, the cost of a replacement battery is as much as £40,000. For certain EVs, the cost of replacing the battery could be ten times the value of the vehicle itself on the second-hand market.
That means used EVs have a limited lifespan — which makes them a bigger and bigger risk as the years go by.
Research into EV batteries is yet to be conclusive and the second-hand EV market is new, given the first popular EVs were rolled off the production line in 2009.
Last night, one motoring expert said customers should be wary of buying a used electric car beyond its warranty (typically eight years), as after that timespan there is no easy way of measuring how much the battery will degrade before it needs replacing.
This may mean you end up needing to pay for an expensive new battery.
Motor expert Shahzad Sheikh, who runs the YouTube channel Brown Car Guy, said: ‘With a decaying battery, the range will be poor and you may find it becomes increasingly hard to resell the vehicle after eight years.
Buyers will know that they’ll only get a small amount of life out of the car so will pay only a small sum, if anything at all.’
This problem is exacerbated by the fact all new cars coming onto the market by 2035 will be electric and motorists will have to get used to paying around £10,000 more than it’s petrol equivalent, for a vehicle which is not built to last as long.
Take a new petrol-driven Renault Clio — it costs around £20,000, while its all-electric opposite, the Renault Zoe, costs closer to £30,000.
While you can drive a traditional petrol or diesel car for around 200,000 miles over 14 years before the engine needs fixing or replacing, by comparison a new EV is typically guaranteed under a warranty for 100,000 miles over eight years.
Should your petrol engine need replacing you can expect to pay around £5,000, but replace the battery on your EV outside warranty and you’re looking at an eye-watering £13,000 to £40,000, depending on the make of your car, if you fit a manufacturer’s new unit.
And there are external factors at play with battery degradation — including use of fast chargers and even a colder climate.
The high cost of EV batteries is a result of it being difficult to mine metals such as nickel, cobalt, lithium and manganese that are used in the lithium-ion batteries.
They are also in demand for the production of other electronics, including mobile phones and laptops.
In the most extreme cases, such as with a 12-year-old Nissan Leaf that cost £2,000 to buy, you can pay as much as £24,000 for a brand-new replacement 24kWh battery.
However, most owners would upgrade to a newer 40kWh Nissan battery costing £12,780 before garage installation fees of around £2,000. This later battery has a bigger capacity but can still be fitted into older models.
These high costs to maintain an electric car do not bode well for a fledgling second-hand market believes Shahzad Sheikh, who points out: ‘Early adopters have already bought electric cars while the next wave of buyers are looking for value for money — and struggling to find it.
‘The second-hand market might seem a natural place to look for an EV but unfortunately it is fraught with danger as the batteries are worth more than the car. If the battery stops working, the vehicle becomes almost worthless.’
Vehicle trading website AA Cars agrees and says that nearly half of all potential second-hand EV buyers are put off because of concerns about battery life.
The situation is even worse than the Mail thinks.
This is not just a problem for eight year old cars, because it will cascade back up the supply chain.
For instance, if you buy a 5 year old petrol car now, you can reasonably assume you will still get a couple of thousand back when you trade it in in three years time. Buy a 5 year old EV, and and you probably won’t get a penny back. That in turn therefore devalues that 5-year old EV, as buyers cannot afford to buy one otherwise. And so on up the chain.
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More good news. Get the government out of the transportation business, they wreck everything they lay their hands on. Sheese!
Just exactly what one should expect from a Disposable Society who hates waste and expounds the virtue of SUSTAINABLITY … Throw away EV Cars … that cost 5 times more than they’re worth just to replace the fuel tank
And just last week Joe Biden concluded his otherwise incoherent speech (on abortion restrictions) by shouting “Get the government out of our lives!!“
As they say these days:
if it is to BE, you travel in an ICE.
Why would anyone with more than two braincells to rub together ever buy a used EV..
You would not know if the battery had received a big bump of some kind..
.., you would not know how often it has been rapid filled to 100%, or anything else about the battery.
High probability you are buying a total lemon.
The first adopters of this misbegotten technology will, hopefully, lose a LOT of money when they try to upgrade or change back to a usable car..
Virtue-seeking always has it just rewards. 😉
Surely if you’re buying a total lemon then with suitable electrodes you can use it to power your car ? 🙂
If life gives you lemons, make batteries
Used BEV and PHEV batteries can be tested
Of course a BEV has hit a pothole or bump at some time. So what?
There are no data to show that fast charging to 80% of capacity: (Level 3 — 480 volt DC) has any effect on battery life. That is conjecture not based on data.
Very few BEV owners do a lot of 480 volt charging.
As usual you spout conclusions with no research.
If such a vehicle hits a pothole how can you guarantee the integrity of the battery? Especially since the slightest collision is giving insurance companies apoplexy just in case there’s damage to a single cell that potentially causes a conflagration. There’s the rub, no one can know for certain what affect these events have on battery lifetime or safety. They can only be determined by post marketing vigilance.
You hit the key words there, JohnC: insurance companies.
They are on the ball fairly quickly, and they don’t much like EVs.
Watch what happens to insurance premiums for homeowners that re-charge their EVs in attached garages after some conflagrations that burn down homes.
… well then, somebody needs to tell those insurance companies that they are nutters that just spout nonsense without doing any research; then direct them to the richard greene website where they can be educated.
after that, they will surely realize that EVs are more efficient and not any more of a liability than standard vehicles.
Off you trot, little mind… go and buy yourself a 4-year-old EV.
Prove just how stupid you really are.
Not only a shill for CO2 warming, but a shill for EVs.
A typical agw apostle. !
Do you have any engineering credentials?
Mr. Greene: Internal inconsistency alert! Mr. 2000 said “big bump” which you water down for some reason to “pothole or bump”. So EV battery hits “big bump” and you say “so what?” Why would a battery need to be tested, which you say “can” be done? If EV batteries are being tested (maybe you can link to a service shop or dealer doing that, if you did links), what are they being tested for? To see if a big bump has set next week’s thermal runaway in motion??!! Why test for a “so what”?
I think Mr. 2000 is right, the damage from a big bump may not be detected by whatever testing “can” be done. But you seem to think that totally unnecessary testing “can” be done. It must be hard to see the face of Janus in the mirror.
I also said 100% charge, which the dim-wit tried to downplay to 80%.
D’OH !!
You are grossly exaggerating the risks of EVs. The battery packs in EVs have expected lifetimes that are approximately equivalent to the life of the vehicle, or any vehicle, of 10-20 years. All are warranted for completely battery replacement for at least 8 years, about double the typical drivetrain warranty on ICVs.
I don’t own an EV, but I have owned lots of ICVs over the years, and my last vehicle had a failed engine (the engine block cracked, apparently due to a design defect), and I was very fortunate that the $14 thousand replacement cost on a four year old vehicle happened just a few thousand miles before the manufacturer’s drivetrain warranty expired. If it had waited another few thousand miles, the vehicle would have been equivalent to being totaled in an insurable accident. That’s a risk that every single buyer of a new or used vehicle assumes, regardless of how it is powered.
10-20 years after purchase of any new vehicle, it is going to be depreciated 70-90% from its new car price, no matter what it is powered with. The day you drive it off the showroom floor, it depreciates at least 10%, and three years later about 40%.
The government does not need to nor should it promote EVs as so many government are doing these days. Buying an EV should be a private decision determined by personal needs and market pricing.
But demonizing EVs is silly and counterproductive. Whether it is wailing about battery replacements, or wailing about EV fires when ICVs are destroyed by fires at a far higher rate than EVs – but the media doesn’t write about ICV fires, only EV fires, because they are a new and notable thing.
EVangelists like Duane and Richard Greene are always going on about the lower fire risk of EV’s compared with ICE vehicles. This is disingenuous for two reasons: first, lithium battery fires are more like chemical explosions and are extremely difficult to extinguish, unlike petrol or diesel fires, and second, the vast majority of recorded ICE fires are the result of arson or insurance fraud. I have driven over 500000 miles in 40 years, and I can’t remember when I last saw an ICE fire. I have seen two EV fires recently, an e-bike in China and a Tesla in the UK.
Never seen an ICV fire happen while parked in the garage overnight. EV fires definitely happen when parked whether charging or not
Mr. cat: Evangelists indeed. I wonder why they insist on preaching to an audience that won’t give them an amen.
yea right. U clearly know sweet zilch about cars.
“10-20 years after purchase of any new vehicle, it is going to be depreciated 70-90% from its new car price,” Bollox.
I have an old Jaguar – 35yrs old. None of your crap EVs will be around while mine is still going strong – with the original engine a decade from now. In fact it’s outlasted 3-4 generations of EV’s already.
Quite apart from being wrong about values – most older 40+ year old cars become collector’s items and the value goes skywards.
Quite apart from being wrong about almost everything you spit out here, who is wailing here?
YOU!
“my last vehicle had a failed engine”.
FYI HDI engines are very reliable, particularly European ones.
ALL farming is still done with diesel tractors, that end up putting food on your table.
It’s not gonna change any time soon.
Maybe you change the marque of stuff you buy or just shut up about things you are blatently ignorant of?
It has been my experience that Corvettes decline in value for about a decade, and then start to appreciate. Formerly, 4WD vehicles would decline in value to about $2,500 and then hit a plateau, while conventional sedans of similar vintage, used for commuting, might go well under $1,000. It really depends on the type of vehicle and how they are maintained as to how much they depreciate. Which is really the point of this article: The bottom is likely to fall out on the re-sale value of EVs because of the cost of replacement batteries. The same thing would happen with ‘ICVs” if the engine had to be replaced every 100,000 miles.
I rebuilt a Volkswagon beetle engine 4 times on my kitchen table for 400,000 miles of 30 MPG driving. It was never even close to a higher cost of replacing the engine. The savings in vehicle costs paid off my mortgage in 15 years, a real incentive and wealth building strategy.
I’m not planning to rebuild EV batteries on my kitchen table. The forklift wont fit through the door. Even if it did, the table wouldn’t support the weight.
My dad parked his Scout in his (way)backyard 45 years ago, now covered by blackberries, and it is now worth more than he paid for it. Yes, at some point inflation takes over and monetary value rises. (My ’96 Tahoe has reached the bottom and is going up.)
Given that Scout is not really an in-demand thing, it shows that usable stuff is usable and has value as long as it it usable.
EVs are like motor homes. After they are essentially used up, they will be acquired by the ignorant, and then left on the street as the responsibility of ‘others’.
Wow! A 35 year old Jag would predate Ford’s buyout, so your car must have Lucas electrical parts. That’s almost worse than being an EV! Yet it’s still going strong. I commend you, sir!
With Jags, the first thing you do is change out as many British made parts as you can for Bosch and away you go for another half century 🙂
“With Jags, the first thing you do is change out as many British made parts as you can for Bosch”
That’s complete bollox also.
The injectors always were Bosch, the relays are all German, the auto boxes are ZF, manual – Getrag, but the main important bits – engine and diff are all Gleason patent for the axle (US/UK dana/salisbury) and the 24V engine one of the best ever made.
Nothing German comes even close to the casting qualities of the engine block and head from WYF, like nothing German comes close to the (3.2L ) piston forgings from Cosworth – Gloucester.
better stop dissing everything Jag and British.
Those cars were so thoroughly tested before release, and company that went to that AC today would be bust!
Brits drink warm beer because they all have Lucas refrigerators.
I once had an old Ford XE, the engine died of I can’t remember what
Got a rebuilt engine, in this case rebuilt by a guy who did stock car racing (new engine compressed at 10.5), fully installed for $3000…. man did that car go !!!
Let’s see anyone replace an EV battery for that sort of price.
My 18-year-old BMW is still “like new”. The usual ‘old car’ maintenance items have been attended to, a few modifications made to improve its performance – power and fuel – and as it is amongst the last of the N54 V6’s, the value is appreciating considerably each year as it is becoming a more rare and desirable performance car.
I’ve lost Engine Blocks myself last one being 10 years ago. It was $5200 to replace. If you paid $14,000 to replace an ICV engine you might want to find another mechanic
He may have used a dealer. You can’t pay more, but you certainly can get better service anywhere else.
The vast majority (i.e. almost all) of ICV’s I’ve seen that were “destroyed by fires” were already destroyed by other means (typically collision) first. Although there was the one destroyed by a fire that started in the meth lab in its trunk.
“…expected lifetimes…”
What you expect is so often not what you receive. That almost sounds like it came from the Bible, but simple observation was enough to teach me that.
Almost all EV battery warrantees are pro rata after the fist 2 years on an 8 year warrantee. If your EV battery fails after 6 years you’ll pay 75% of the replacement cost.
And once again, the lack of perspective makes Duane’s opinions worthless.
Yes, a very tiny number of ICE vehicles have defects that may make the engine worthless long before the average ICE engine wears out.
As to your claims of a $14K fix. Please document your numbers. That number is almost 3 times greater than most engine replacements.
Compare this against the fact that all batteries will need replacing long before an equivalent ICE engine will, and the battery will cost at least 2 to 3 times as much to replace.
There is also the well known fact that even small bumps have the potential to make the battery, and hence the car carrying it, worthless.
PS: Despite your frequent lies about ICE fires, when like is compared to like, EVs are many times more likely to catch fire.
“the battery will cost at least 2 to 3 times as much to replace.”
in some cases 2-3 times the purchase cost of the actual car. !!
Do you have a citation to support that claim? I suspect that the correct statement is that the total number of ‘ICV’ fires is higher, but the rate is much lower.
It’s one of those lies that Duane has been called on many times, but he keeps repeating it because it’s all he’s got.
What they did was compare the number of fires in both ICE and EVs in a given year, and compared that to the number of cars of each type sold in the same year.
There are so many problems with this number that’s it’s hard to know where to begin.
The biggest problem is that sales in a given year are not representative of the number of cars on the road in that same year.
Because ICE cars have been on sale for a much longer period of time, and because ICE cars last so much longer, there are many more ICE cars on the road then there are EVs. Beyond that, ICE cars are driven a lot more than EV cars are.
When you compare the number of fires/miles driven, the ratio completely reversed.
That’s why Duane continues to use a number that is so discredited, reality doesn’t support what he wants to believe.
You are grossly exaggerating the risks of EVs. The battery packs in EVs have expected lifetimes that are approximately equivalent to the life of the vehicle, or any vehicle
I agree with that general statement Duane on the assumption you’re talking about quality battery systems like Tesla and perhaps BYD or MG exports. However there has been plenty of rubbish produced in China –
China is Throwing Away Fields of Electric Cars – Letting them Rot! (youtube.com)
and serious battery problems/recalls with trusted legacy Carmakers using early adopters as their road test guinea pigs.
OK so we know Chinese carmakers like BYD and MG etc have to charge a lot more in Western export markets than consumer Wild West in China with their more risky junk. But that still leaves the used buyer facing catastrophic loss with battery failure out of warranty-
Why EV repair and insurance is a NIGHTMARE | MGUY Australia (youtube.com)
and insurers beginning to understand the level of loss they’re taking on too-
Some EVs UNINSURABLE – mechanics don’t want to TOUCH them | MGUY Australia (youtube.com)
EVs aren’t even WORTH FIXING, sent to JUNK YARD instead | MGUY Australia (youtube.com)
If you feel you’re helping change the weather buying an EV new or used then I have this bridge for sale in Baltimore.
Duane,
After going more than a year without telling us that the president can not impact oil prices in any way, I was starting to give you the benefit of the doubt (as to your honesty vs. ignorance).
Given your above statements, I am back to thinking it isn’t simply ignorance.
Speaking of a “big bump,” that’s what one can expect frequently in an off-road vehicle. Why would one even consider buying an electric 4WD like the revived Scout by VW? Not someone with off-road experience.
There will be a lot of people who are uncertain about buying a used EV but there are plenty of people who will not check.
I’m not sure what the timebomb aspect is supposed to be? EV not worth what you paid? Boohoo
“Timebomb” is apposite – have you seen an EV burn?!
Where you live, are there any trashed motorhomes left on the streets?
Multiply that by 20 for future EVs.
Petrol tanks don’t lose capacity….
Doh
Although I am not contradicting the article, the analogy is false. In fact in an electric car the motor(s) are more like the crankshaft, with the battery being the rest of the engine.Crankshafts don’t wear out (easily)but piston rings etc do. And gas mileage suffers accordingly.
It’s like buying a used car back in the day when an engine rebuild at 70,000 miles was necessary.The bigger EV killer is the insurance costs. The second biggest is how much a battery replacement would cost.
Well we will see. The aim of government here seems to be to force private vehicles off the roads entirely.
Tires generally wear very quickly as well as they become EViscerated.
Brake pads and rotors last longer for BEVs
BEVs typically experience less brake wear due to regenerative braking,
OTOH, tyres last less than half as long due to the added weight.
Typical Tire lifetime on ICVs is 80,000 miles.
Typical Tire lifetime in EVs is 20,000 miles
EVs produce 4 times the amount of tire waste (microplastic?) pollution
Fortunately, brake pads are cheap.
The omniscient ones have plans for that although it’s a double edged sword-
Euro 7: Council and Parliament strike provisional deal on emissions limits for road vehicles – Consilium (europa.eu)
So you thought buying an EV would assuage the Green crocodile eh?
So do roads
With modern lubricants and regular oil-changes (at least annually irrespective of mileage) there is no reason for piston-rings to wear out. I’ve known cars with well over 100k miles on the clock that never needed the oil topping-up between changes.
If that were true, why would engine designers still put oil filters on the engines? If there is no wear, there is nothing to filter out.
He mentioned piston rings, not everything. Other items do wear. I got 330,000 miles out of my Honda Odyssey. Timing belt broke a little earlier than the next replacement mileage of 360,000 miles. The car did not burn oil even at the end. Same with my wife’s Corolla. Engine ran forever. Modern rings last for the life of many cars.
That might be true in cars with electric oil pumps.
For cars with mechanically driven oil pumps, there is a lot of wear during the first few seconds that a car runs. Until the oil pressure has built up and the oil is reaching all parts of the engine.
Gee Leo, crankshafts wear out, and all things mechanical wear, including electric motors, which are mechanical. Wear of an electric motor includes degradation of contacts, bearings, armature, stator, etc., which cause inefficient power use and can stress a battery more, so mileage will suffer and affect battery life. This is well known by engineers.
Battery replacement is the highest cost because there is no “real” aftermarket for these contraptions. Motor replacement is also expensive, but also the design of many EVs make it difficult to do this sort of repair. For these reasons, many engineers believe that EVs will remain costly to maintain and repair
Sorry Leo but the Electrons turn the Motor creating mechanical motion while batteries store the electrons for use. Electrons are the FUEL and the Battery Storage is the FUEL TANK
As ICE cars age, fuel economy declines. No matter how well you take care of your vehicle, it’s engine efficiency and power are never as good as when you drive it off the lot. However, while a product of the miles you’ve driven, this decrease in efficiency is most likely due to faulty or worn engine components.
But the tank doesn’t shrink.
ICE maximum driving range declines just like a BEV’s range although not as much.
That’s not my experience. If anything, well run-in IC engines are more economical than new ones.
In 50+ years of motoring, and around 1 million miles, I haven’t noticed.
I monitor my gas mileage very closely. I limit maintenance to the schedule provided in the manual.
I have not found any difference in mileage. If anything, it has improved a bit over the years. My “gas-guzzler” is ten years old. Toyota makes a nice engine. I’d get good value for this car if I wanted to trade it in or sell it. I don’t.
One of the main hallmarks of leftists is their intellectual dishonesty; they’re not mere dishonesty with others but are additionally dishonest with their own selves. They believe the truth is something that sounds like it might be true. In the 30 years of owning my daily driver gas car, if it has had any diminished driving range due to wear in the engine/drive train, it is statistically insignificant. A mile or three at most. Now consider an EV with a likely real-world range currently of 200 miles. Apply the 12% reduction in range over 6 years noted in the guest post above, and – correct me if I am wrong on this – you’ve just lost 25 miles. For my cross-country drives arriving on fumes at a gas station 30 years ago, maybe today I’d need to walk the mile or 3 to get a little can of gas. Imagine instead coming up that short in a trek across open countryside …. where you will not be able to bring a can of electricity back to your dead car that would you allow you to make it the rest of the way into the nearest town.
One other reminder about the “Richard Greene” commenter: that alleged ‘political conservative’ still does not pass the smell test with me, and this dual personalities problem he suffers from over being a serial EV apologist promoter while he trashes skeptic climate scientists via quotes straight from Greenpeace only amplifies the situation.
Mr. Cook: Agreed on Mr. Greene, yesterday I made a reference to Janus (the two faced greek guy), Mr. Greene is the house Janus.
I’m glad someone else noticed. Maybe he’s a bot.
How many ICE cars 15 years and older are still running like clockwork.
No EV will reach that unless it spends most of its life a virtue-seeking showpiece…never used at all.
And after 5 or 6 years will be totally worthless… like your comments.
I’ve got a 15 year old Camry. I’ve done 370,000 km with no significant problems or major replacements. Twice a year I drive fully loaded and with a trailer to and from Johannesburg and Cape Town – 1,400 km one way, on 2 tanks of petrol. Electric cars are silly and expensive toys for the rich with a use value limited to local shopping and showing off.
Gilded Golfcarts
My 2004 Commodore died last year with some sort of computer issue.
Had close to 400,000km on it.
Sold it to a mechanic.. and he was eventually, after several weeks, able to get it up and running again.
Now have a 2006 Mitsubishi 380 that runs beautifully.
Just to throw in my two cents, I have a 2003 4Runner (we bought used in 2008) that has over 360,000 miles on it. Some dings and wear-and-tear, but still running well.
I had a 1970 Scout with close to 500,000 miles on it that I finally sold about 2015, (for more than I paid for it) not because there was anything wrong mechanically with the engine or drive train, but because 10 years after moving to the Midwest, the road salt had taken a toll on brake lines, springs, gas tanks, and the body. We have yet to learn what the build-up of conductive road salt is going to do to the lifespan of big batteries.
Half the EV cars out there are still on the road.
The other half made it all the way home.
Pretty much every one that I’ve ever owned.
Talking utter bollox.
I have a Honda V6 engined car – dates from 1988.
The engines never use any oil and I have seen many with stratospheric mileages – one of mine did 450 000 and still running perfect with no emission issues at all.
You change the timing belt occasionally and of it goes for another 150 000+
Diesel engines developed in France by Peugeot and Citroen routinely do 200-250 000 kms with usually the turbo being the first to be changed. Often the engines go on and on.
(I work often in a garage that services them!)
Do you always wanna look totally ignorant or stupid or is it effortless for you?
Turbo engines do not lose performance or power an don’t use more fuel.
It’s how they work,+piston ring wear is negligible these days with modern materials like Goetze and Mahle.
Just imagine, in 15 more years you will have driven it enough that the fuel cost to take you those hundreds of thousands of miles will finally equate the premium cost of the typical EV/ICV price difference
Not quite, depending upon where you charge it, the electricity can cost as much as fuel for an ICE does, and even if you can charge at home, at night (cheap rate), the only reason BEV’s make any kind of sense is because of the tax benefits.
“Talking utter bollox.”
It is RG’s speciality !!
My Dodge Durango got 14-17 mpg back in 1998 when it was new.
Just before I sold it in 2023 with 104,000 miles it got 14-17 mpg…still
My 1970 6-cyl Scout got 16 MPG — no matter what speed I drove it at, up to the legal speed limit — until the last re-build where I put a slightly milder cam in it and it got 17 MPG.
One thing did improve my mileage though and that was Oregon Gasoline
We drove a 2008 Dodge Charger from Santa Rosa to Seattle Wa. Filled up on CA gas before we left. Refueled in Redding then again in Ashland Or. Final refuel was in Seattle prior to returning. First tank 22 mpg California Gas. 2nd tank 24 mpg California Gas. 3rd tank, Oregon Gas, 34mpg. California gas formulation really sucks for mileage
ICE efficiency improves during the beak in period.
Only if the engine isn’t taken care of.
Actually, peak gas mileage is usually well after the engine is broken in. Everything mechanical is subject to wear and general degradation. The issue is the rate and whether the design life is less than the typical length of ownership. However, this article is really about recyclability of EVs.
I have heard of old Holden V8’s with over 1,000,000 km on the clock, with only occasional gasket or other small part replacement, they are pretty hard engines to kill. !
Sometimes- I had a Ford F150 I bough new in ’88. About 10 years later, both fuel tanks rusted out and had to be replaced. But that truck was junk- constant problems with it. I now prefer Japanese cars/trucks.
But still the cost of replacing those fuel tanks was significantly less than the cost of replacing the typical EV fuel tank
Not much- something like $150/tank plus labor cost. A bit less than a new EV battery. The gas tank on my 20 year old Toyota Tacoma looks brand new.
“A bit less”? EV battery replacement cost $5-15K.
I had forgotten the sarc tag- presumed it would have been presumed. 🙂
The sarcasm was so thick, I had to wipe off my screen after reading it.
To be fair, IC engines do typically lose compression in the cylinders over time and start burning or otherwise losing oil.
That’s when you switch to “Morelube” oil, that cheap 30wt reused and re-filtered oil. Since you’re going to burn it anyway, use the cheap stuff.
Here in pot hole ridden road UK we have an additional issue when it comes to choosing a battery EV.
Because the roads are now virtually abandoned in many rural communities and even in cities, the roads are being allowed to decay into pot hole hell, the shock when hitting one of these holes in the road surface, often results in wheel damage or tyre failure. Add to that the broken suspension springs and joints. Now sadly, that is the reality in 21st century woke focused Net Zero UK.
Anyone driving a battery powered car that weighs up to half a tonne more than its ICE configured alternative, is very aware of the risks they run when venturing off the smooth tarmac they expected to find.
If you hit a pothole, as I did recently and suffered two broken 19 inch wheels it is expensive. What shock loading is it putting into the battery pack when such impacts are encountered? This is increasingly worrying on our unkempt roads?
If I were a battery car owner, I would not be able to sleep at night thinking about what damage lurks in the battery pack of my car, often parked under the bedroom in the garage with its multiple other pieces of big boys toys stored there.
Have you seen the state of some roads in the USA, certainly around DC and Virginia, when we visited my daughter a few years back we were shocked at the rubbish road surfaces. In fact my daughter tried to sell her car before returning home and she couldn’t because the chassis had broken, there’s no equivalent of the MoT over there.
The other piece of road “furniture” to consider are speed bumps, which can be quite steep and tall.
Finally, what about flooding of low lying roads?
All good points John, The road humps being the most critical. The scale of those crazy constructs knows no limit in number and size. Their often scarred top surface, tells us all we need to know about the potential hazard they present to a battery pack slung at the lowest point of the car for obvious stability reasons.
What if it’s just very heavy rain. I’d think quite a bit of water will be kicked up by the tires. Is the battery of an EV exposed or is it insulated from such road water?
Even if it is sealed initially, what if the shell is punctured by a rock or scraping something, or the Winter brine spray finds its way in through a broken spot-weld?
Remember the video some months ago about the Tesla bursting into flames while parked in the UG garage in China? That car drove over Road Debris about 4 hours earlier and did unnoticed damage to the battery in the undercarriage
If I were the owner of a BEV, I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night knowing the thing could spontaneously turn into an incendiary bomb.
That’s what the B (omb) stands for in BEV.
Our local council does a reasonably job on road up-keep.. and recently seems to have found funds for road resurfacing of the main link roads.
Big news lately is a 500m section in the middle of town, that has been almost 100% pothole patches for some say 20+ years, is being totally rebuilt from the sub-base upwards. New kerb and guttering and all.. A miracle !! 😉
Vehicle-to-grid function will attract some punters but will wear battery quicker
Stupid governments like to rig the field so expect them to force ICE cars to have shrinking petrol tanks.
I don’t think you would have much luck selling one that isn’t clean either:
https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/tesla-cybertruck-car-wash-mode-breakdown-b2533701.html
What about the environmental costs of disposing of EV’s?
hmmm… when I bring an old air conditioner or refrigerator to the local recycle center- it’ll cost $40-50- so bringing a junk EV to any sort of junk lot or recycle center really must be very expensive- in some areas.
heh, I just put mine out by the curb for regular trash pickup. The late-night, aftermarket metal recyclers always pick it up before the trash comes in the morning.
This article is filled with disinformation and false conclusions.
The author is so anti-EV he can not think straight.
There are many problems with new BEVs and I can not think of a good reason to buy one. Even worse is having the government forcing people to buy BEVs.
EV batteries not lasting long enough is NOT one of the many reasons to avoid buying a new BEV. This article implies that is a reason. Therefore, this article is BS.
It is possible that a very cheap used BEV would be a decent investment for a city car used for shirt trips, based on current low prices for used EVs
“After this time (eight years), the battery may lose power more quickly and so reduce mileage between charges.” Homewood
Total BS
Battery capacity losses per year start at about 1.5% and gradually DECLINE. The estimated worst case for 20 years of use is 20% less capacity. That does NOT make an EV worthless or require a new battery.
“While you can drive a traditional petrol or diesel car for around 200,000 miles over 14 years before the engine needs fixing or replacing, by comparison a new EV is typically guaranteed under a warranty for 100,000 miles over eight years.”
Homewood
Total BS
An EV battery will easily last 20 years or 200,000 miles. Only 1.2% of US light vehicles are used for over 200,000 miles (only 0.03% reach 300,000 miles).
The length of the BEV battery warranty is NOT the lifespan of the BEV battery. Fearful BEV owners can buy optional battery insurance from their auto insurance company. No more than 1.5% of EV batteries have been replaced. Most due to damage from collisions.
“Buy a 5 year old EV, and you probably won’t get a penny back.” Homewood
Total BS
Homewood has no data to reach this conclusion. If used EVs are currently very cheap, then this speculation is most likely false.
Dick, dicking around with context as usual.
13% fall in price in around 50 days. Hundreds more examples where this came from:
Still no data for that claim
I can’t read your chart
Carfax data show that cars typically lose more than 10% of their value in the first month after you drive off the lot, and it keeps dropping from there.
It’s a ‘reasonable assumption’ as it’s in the future, for when we have no data.
Click on the chart. Assuming you are using a modern OS and not MSDOS it should expand to become readable.
The Tesla in question is a 4 year old model with 37,000 miles on the clock. It hasn’t driven off the second hand lot and has lost 13%. By Carfax’s estimation if it was bought on the day this advert was placed and driven off the lot it would have fallen by another 10%, totalling 23% in 50 days.
Teslas Model X
March 12, 2024 $57,449
April 23, 2024 $49,989
Value difference -$7,460 in 42 days
Just zoom in on the inset. Unfortunately the linked image is blank
Try clicking on the chart!
he knows that … he’s just being a Richard.
If that were true, why do you think the manufacturers only warranty the battery for 8 years or 100,000 miles?
Irrelevant question
The warranty time limit is set by competition and at the mileage where the manufacturer expects 99% to 100% of batteries to last.
There is not a lot of data to be sure, so the manufacturer wants a safety margin.
The BEV company compares sales benefits of a long warranty with expected costs and tries to find a good balance.
With a longer warranty, the customer might argue that a battery that has lost 15% to 20% of its capacity in 10 to 20 years is “broken” and should be replaced.
Why would a customer think that a battery that’d lost 20% over 20 years was broken?
Why would the manufacturers not offer a 12-year warranty if they thought 99% of batteries would last that long, surely that’d be a massive competitive advantage for them?
Have you any evidence to support your claim that “The estimated worst case for 20 years of use is 20% less capacity”?
Mr. Eric: Follow Mr. Greene’s comments for more than 5 minutes and you’ll see two formats. 1. He makes citation-free pronouncement. 2. He calls out a post for “citation-free” or “evidence-free” comment, and follows with citation-free pronouncement. Both on full display here.
Now now, we’ll have none of that. No stating the truth.
Truth is Disinformation
People don’t use or need warranties. It’s simply a BS marketing tool, because the vehicle is always flogged of under 2yrs old, and warranties are never transferable.
Cars nearly always attract big bills into the 2-3rd owner and the manufacturers charge fortunes for the spares to make their REAL margins, they don’t make on constructing the thing.
Ask me how I know? I work in the motor trade.
R Greene is talking utter crap.
Manufacturers’ warranties are, a simple google shows that.
RG is going to become a collector of used EVS.. How stupid is that. !!
Who is paying you to be a SHILL for EVs, RG??
Earlier buyers are already finding that the saleyards won’t even take them as trade in, because they know they cannot re-sell them..
Only a mindless twit would want to be stuck with a worthless hunk of junk. !
Please don’t pretend to yourself that you would actually buy a 5-6 year old second-hand EV..
Not even you are that stupid… or are you. !!
You have clearly never used an iphone in recent times and know nothing about marketing/sales strategies.
The very definition of anything using electricity + rechargeable is called:-
>BUILT IN OBSOLESCENCE<
It’s part of the design and marketing brief, like a kleenex – designed to be used, scrapped and thrown away within 4-5 years.
+
After 6 years NO SPARE PARTS.
““After this time (eight years), the battery may lose power more quickly and so reduce mileage between charges.” Homewood
Total BS
Battery capacity losses per year start at about 1.5% and gradually DECLINE. The estimated worst case for 20 years of use is 20% less capacity. That does NOT make an EV worthless or require a new battery.”
Please throw your used Kleenex away immediately after use rather than use it for 4-5 years
““After this time (eight years), the battery may lose power more quickly and so reduce mileage between charges.” Homewood
Total BS”
“Lithium-ion batteries, of the type used in most electric vehicles (including Skoda electric vehicles) have a restricted lifespan. Battery capacity will reduce over time, with use and charging. Reduction in battery capacity will affect the performance of the vehicle, including the range achievable, and may impact resale value. New car performance figures (including battery capacity and range) may be provided for the purposes of comparison between vehicles. You should not rely on new car performance figures (including battery capacity and range), in relation to used vehicles with older batteries, as they will not reflect used vehicle performance in the real world. For further information on battery degradation/preservation and the Skoda 8 year/100,000 mile battery warranty, please click”
It could if the range was already marginal for the way it was being used. That is, if there was little or no marginal reserve, one might get stranded frequently.
You are the one coming to false conclusions.
As usual, your contrary claims are without any data or facts. For one, EVs haven’t been in in use long enough to support your claims. Besides, batteries are fickle devices. Some last a while, some do not. Battery testing is also unreliable. Even a load tester will not detect many incipient failures until they happen.
While you can drive a traditional petrol or diesel car for around 200,000 miles over 14 years before the engine needs fixing or replacing,
This may be true in general but I bought a new Vauxhall Astra Griffin in November 2021 and in June 2023 I was told that the car needed a new engine.
The other problem to be considered is the cost of maintenance. Well before 14 years, the cost of maintenance is likely to be so high it is not worth keeping the car. In 2018 I got rid of a 9 year-old car as it was beginning to cost me over £1,000 to get it through its MOT. A relative of mine is currently experiencing the same problem with her car. It is far from 14 years-old.
I drive a Chevy pickup truck that is 32 years old, and have a GMC van that is 35 years old. Routine maintenance is all they have needed all these years, with the exception that both transmissions had to be rebuilt, at a cost of about $1000,00 for each.
No EV for me.
A couple of points here.
Modern European/Japanese cars in the UK have, at best, a 10,000 mile service interval, often longer. That is considered my many to be far too high. It should be around 5,000 miles for an oil change especially if the engine is turbocharged as the heat characteristics breaks oil down faster than with normally aspirated engines.
The crappy roads and crappy weather in the UK, combined with winter salt on roads, are death to a car. Go to Spain or Portugal and there are pristine examples of cars which would be scrapped in the UK.
Congestion and the stop start nature of motoring here is also hugely destructive to components and engine wear, and modern diesels are entirely unsuited to urbane traffic conditions as they rarely heat the ERG system up enough to burn off the contaminants they are designed to trap.
Finally, was it Vauxhall themselves (or main dealer) who told you a new engine was needed? It’s usually worth going to an independent specialist for a second opinion. I was told the ECU was screwed on a car I had, which was going to cost thousands to replace. I took it to a specialist and it turned out to be a £20 short circuit in the wiring loom.
I have a 12 year old Fiat 500. A rather cheap car to begin with.
In the last 4 years, the only thing I have replaced on this car are the window wipers. If I had a place to park the car that was out of the sun, it’s unlikely I would have had to replace them.
“Money Mail can today reveal a timebomb looming in the second-hand market for electric vehicles (EVs).”
No pun intended!
I think the Market Place is going to decide and it’s not looking good for EV’s.
The issue is: current produced ice cars use very dodgy electronics and chipsets and all the automated computer system faults cause multiple system failure issues. Ie, crap parts hooked up to software. This is not a pro EV stance, just reality. The reality of EVs are clearly stated in the article. Some might criticize the details but it is in general right.
Anyway, we are fecked in any case with the state doing its best to make things worse, as usual..
Why would EV’s use better electronics and chip sets?
I am not saying they are. I am just saying that ice cars produced since after the financial crash around 2008 have had cost cutting measures. The days of 20 year old cars are over. Mine is from 2007. 3 years to go. But it is a relative simple petrol one and has low mileage so i hope more.
I still see plenty old mercs and volvos from the 90s on the road.
I know a lot of families have 2 cars. W an ICE and an EV you are covered. People w money to spare often opt f an EV as second car. I like EVs but generally not their looks. I wish new tech will replace ICEs. Despite all the hype about EVs and hydrogen fuel cells i put my faith in small nuclear power devices. Imagine the amount of power it will generate!
Such is the problem with Progressive Ideology
Progressive = Progressively Worse
I’ve never had any problems with the electronics of any car that I have owned.
I had one with electronics problems – when I turned left the horn would honk, and when I turned on the lights the wipers started.
But that was after 300,000+ miles of VERY hard driving.
Better than being feckless.
The real problem I see with BEV’s is that they’re just not suitable for a lot of people.
There are plenty of people who do relatively low mileages, so a car that’s dead after 10 – 12 years might have only travelled 60,000 or so miles in its lifetime, barely run in for a modern ICE, is essentially a waste.
I still see cars from the mid to late 90s in daily use, plenty more that are pushing 20 years old, how many of today’s BEV’s do we expect will still be on the road 20 years from now?
It’s really depressing to see cars that were introduced years after I graduated from college, being labeled as classics.
Once again proving that EV ownership is not a good deal for the non-affluent.
On the other hand, it may be a great deal for me. I’ve long been considering an EV as a third car for errands around town. Since these trips are usually well less than 10 miles, even a 50% degradation of a 200 mile battery would be meaningless to me. I wouldn’t mind a well cared for used 5-year old luxury model for less than $10,000.
The government’s push for EVs is as ‘near sighted’ as any other government mandate.
Ya know, someone is going to come up with an ICE based battery pack replacement that would make converting a used EV affordable. These guys may have the candidate: https://innengine.com/
If every car owner has to pay $10k more for an EV do you know how much economical damage this will do? A second hands car market is important to many people, but also in more poor countries as eastern Europe, Afrika,… An used EV is just not an option. Mobility brought a lot of wealth and economic growth. If plans go through and people can’t afford mobility anymore we might see a revolution. No car will also mean less activities. People will stop being able to go out for sports becoming less healthy, or leisure activities causing more non essential businesses to close. And even when they buy an EV there might be no money left for those things. Before cars got a basic utility you died in the town where born and went twice a year to the big city. Back to an economy of 100 years ago.
The Chinese BEV’s solve the problem. They cost less than the battery in a tesla.
It is actually worse than what the article talks about in regards to resale value.
While the argument holds that an EV battery can last far longer than 8 or so years and that they are warranted up to that age for failure, unless you want to be almost tethered to a charging station or tow one you won’t be going far on a charge.
On the tester it might show that the battery is still 80% ok, what matters is how far can you go on that. And what has now proven is that charging an 7 or 8 year old battery does not get you to 80% of the distance it was first tested to.
By the way all those distance tests are done in a lab, not on the road. Actual distance one is able to travel in an EV is about 100km, 60 odd miles, less than stated. Just don’t tow the boat.
The problem right now is that older EV’s are hard to sell and soon everyone will realise that even 3 year old ones are hard to on sell.
The reality is that the second owner of the now 3 year old EV can’t sell the, what is now only good as a boat anchor, thing anymore as the prospective owner of the more or less now 6 year old EV knows that they will be up for a 20K odd battery replacement soon.
Which basically means that those people who currently buy 3 year old EV’s have to commit to writing off the whole value of whatever they paid as it is worthless.
People may not realise that yet but it is already happening. Traders don’t want second hand EV’s as trade at any age any longer. The public to public sales are drying up and soon the only thing left for anyone buying an EV is driving the thing until it ain’t going any longer. Accept that you have lost the whole initial investment and move on.
The owner is left with having to dispose of it themselves only to find that there is no facility that wants to take it off your hands anymore, not even if you pay them. As for now there is no safe method of recycling the battery. Only a few plants are attempting to recycle them with great difficulty and danger, that needs to be resolved first.
Insurance premiums are going up on EV’s as they find out that even in relatively minor accidents they have to replace the battery out of safety concerns as not every cell can be tested, yet, to make sure that the battery is not going to short.
For those countries/regions who insist all out going to EV in 15 or 20 years the trade in ICE’s will roar and the poor suckers who ended up in an EV early will have 5 old ones parked in front of the house on the road. No doubt incurring council fines.
Tyre use is up by 40 to 60%. Road user charges will only go up as guvmints need to recover the lost taxes from selling less petrol. The list goes on.
Not to mention that EV’s are now showing having all sorts of electrical problems, not holding charge being one of the main issues, ie very short range. But certainly not limited to that.
All that is a shame really as the smell of an ICE exhaust fuming away has never attracted me much.
But if you want to go from A to B and B is more than 300 km away the only way you can really predict your arrival time is with an ICE.
[QUOTE FROM ARTICLE]”In the most extreme cases, such as with a 12-year-old Nissan Leaf that cost £2,000 to buy, you can pay as much as £24,000 for a brand-new replacement 24kWh battery.
However, most owners would upgrade to a newer 40kWh Nissan battery costing £12,780 before garage installation fees of around £2,000. This later battery has a bigger capacity but can still be fitted into older models.”
So the upgraded Nissan battery can store 40 kWh of electrical energy. One kilowatt is 1000 Joules per second, and 1 hour = 3600 seconds, so that 1 kWh = 3.6 megajoules (MJ), and 40 kWh = 144 MJ.
Most of the compounds in gasoline have heats of combustion of at least 40 MJ/kg, so that the energy stored in this battery is equal to the chemical energy stored in 144 / 40 = 3.6 kg of gasoline. Since gasoline has a density of about 0.75 kg/liter, this would have a volume of about 4.8 liters, or about 1.27 gallons.
Admittedly, gasoline engines are only about 35% efficient in converting the heat of combustion to useful work, so that the energy stored in the battery would be equivalent to burning 1.27 / 0.35 = 3.6 gallons of gasoline, if the electric motor was 100% efficient (its real efficiency is probably in the 80% to 85% range).
Most gasoline-powered cars have tanks that can contain at least 12 gallons of gasoline, so that an equivalent gasoline-powered car would have over three times the range of the electric Nissan with a fully-charged 40 kWh battery. If the equivalent gasoline-powered car got 25 miles per gallon, the electric Nissan with a fully-charged battery would have a range of 3.6 gal * 25 miles/gal = 90 miles, while the gasoline-powered car would have a range of 12 * 25 = 300 miles.
So, how many people want to pay about 14,270 pounds sterling (about $17,800 US) for a battery that takes all night to charge and can only go 90 miles, compared to filling up a gasoline tank at a station down the street in five minutes with a range of 300 miles? If people do the math, there won’t be many takers.
There may be some savings in the cost of recharging compared to that of gasoline. If electricity costs $0.10 per kWh, recharging the battery costs $4.00 in electricity, compared to about 3.6 gal * $4.00 per gallon = $14.40 worth of gasoline for the 90 mile trip, or a savings of about $10.40 for 90 miles = $0.116 per mile.
But if the $17,800 battery has an 8-year lifetime, the depreciation cost of the battery is $2,225 per year. If driving the electric car saves $0.116 per mile in energy costs, the electric car would have to be driven about $2,225 / ($0.116/mile) = 19,200 miles per year to recuperate the cost of replacing the battery after 8 years. This is equivalent to 53 miles per day, in a car with a 90-mile range. How many people would drive an electric car that far, with the risk of a dead battery far from a charging station?
The answer is easy: ban ICEs. Or restrict them, tax them heavily and the oil companies, give giant subsidies for EV producers and users. For that the small price to pay is your freedom. See, it’s all working out!
Just to make sure: i was being sarcastic but i am pretty sure this is what the Greenies want and think.
Don’t buy a £40,000 battery for a £5,000 car. Just buy 8 £5,000 cars, and pull a trailer with 7 cars on it to swap whenever one gets too low. Problem solved. You’re welcome.
These findings added to the facts that EVs are already overpriced, have uncertain cruising ranges, questionable cold-weather dependability ratings, low resale values, and overall reliability records almost 80% worse than their ICE counterparts should depress sales even further. So this is another case of buyer beware.
The average age of a car in the US fleet (>280 million) is over 12 years. There were fewer than 50,000 EVs sold by 2012, so it’s hard to compare the experience of EV owners vs. ICEV owners. Even Tesla didn’t get to 500,000 cumulative sales until 2019.
Battery EV’s losing 50 percent of value in three years is an issue, but for buyers like me who like to buy 3-year lease trade-ins and drive them for 3 years, BEV isn’t an option. A $48,000 car depreciating $8,000 per year the first three years to ($24K), and $6,000 per year for the 2nd three years to ($6K) and $2,000 per year during the 3rd three years to ($0k), is costly. $0K because people buying 9-year-old cars don’t have garages and/or don’t want a car that may come up with a dead $15,000 battery in a couple years.
New BEV’s are for the top 10% earners, 3-year-old BEV’s for the next 15%, and an even worse investment for everyone else. The fad is fading. Give it up. Gasoline at $4/gal, makes the cost, complexity, and weight of a hybrid economical, but BEV’s are like ethanol, wind, solar, and grid scale battery storage, “less than wise”.