Review of Proposed Minimum Efficiency Standards for “Consumer Boilers”

From MasterResource

By Mark Krebs

“DOE’s recent appliance efficiency ‘determinations’ are doing more harm than good for consumers and defy objectivity and transparency processes required by the Code of Federal Regulations (the Process Rule)….  Accordingly, this program should be dismantled as DOE has once again proven itself to be unworthy of objectively and transparently serving the best interests of American consumers.”

This post updates my September 19th analysis to examine just-filed comments in opposition to the U.S. Department of Energy’s hell-bent strategy of mandating less choice and higher costs for consumers in return for specious benefits.

Background

On August 13, 2023, DOE’s Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy (EERE) posted a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for “consumer” boilers.  The comment period ended on October 13th, 2023.  This NOPR, if finalized, would ban common gas-fired hot water boilers by requiring an AFUE (Annual Fuel Utilization Efficiency) of 95%.

According to Energy.gov, a high-efficiency heating system has an AFUE rating of 90% to 98.5%. Such premium efficiencies come at a premium cost, especially in the replacement market where most of these  dependable and long-lasting non-condensing boiler technologies are common.

My Comments

I have been documenting EERE’s misdeeds for more than a decade in scores of filings publicly available through regulation.gov. Additionally, I have disclosed scores of articles further documenting these misdeeds for the past decade that are publicly available through my archives at MasterResource

The reason for these inclusions is not for EERE; but for the benefit of elected and appointed lawmakers who may intervene in cleaning up the mess that the enabling legislation, the Energy Conservation and Policy Act (EPCA), created (unwittingly or otherwise) that increasingly harm ordinary consumers.

In addition to the added purchase expenses of high-end condensing furnaces, all such homes would require costly new boiler exhaust systems and cause potential problems for any non-condensing heating systems “stranded” on the existing non-condensing exhaust systems (i.e., typical gas-storage water heaters). 

Condensing technologies are also much more complicated, requiring additional maintenance and repair costs that can easily wipe out EERE’s claimed savings from reduced gas bills. Basically, high-end boilers are computer controlled. One failed motherboard component means a replacement. If such a failure occurs out-of-warranty, the fix is a new motherboard that can exceed the life-cycle savings estimated by EERE in this docket, savings of about $350 per year on average. Condensing boiler heat exchangers also don’t last nearly as long. 

Some manufacturers claim that condensing boiler heat exchanges will only last 10 years, as opposed to the 27+ years claimed by EERE.  Additionally, EERE’s meager $350 savings are highly inflated (by about 70%) due to  claimed Social Cost of Carbon (SCC) reductions and nebulous “health benefits,” both of which are highly contested by independent science.  At least arguably, EPCA never intended for these concocted benefits to be included, let alone given greater weight than reduced consumer utility costs.

Given these one-sided factors (and more discussed below), EERE claims a highly dubious 2.7-year simple payback.  It should also be noted that DOE has never based its “determinations” upon any semblance of actual installation histories.  Instead, EERE relies on a variety of biased analytical apparatchik that defy (by design) independent verification largely through biased forecasts with results averaged into oblivion.

Even more audacious is the fact that EERE is repeating the same manipulative Monte Carlo “random assignment” methodologies that DOE was recently admonished for using by the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit where the Court remanded DOE’s final rule for commercial boilers.  By once again repeating this severe analytical cheat documented within the Court’s order, it further indicates DOE’s ongoing contempt for analytical objectivity and transparency that (at least arguably) shows contempt for the Court’s ruling.[1] The essence of this “random assignment” cheat is this:

 – that base case purchasing decisions are never influenced by the economics of potential investments in Standards-Compliant products regardless of the economic stakes involved– is indefensible.[2]

DOE’s recent appliance efficiency “determinations” are doing more harm than good for consumers and defy objectivity and transparency processes required by the Code of Federal Regulations at 10 CFR 430 Appendix A to Subpart C (a.k.a., the “Process Rule”).  But it’s a massive win for EERE’s radical “electrify everything” cult, their well-funded minions and the “administrative state” they collectively serve.

Accordingly, this program should be dismantled as DOE has once again proven itself to be unworthy of objectively and transparently serving the best interests of American consumers.

Comments filed in opposition to EERE’s NOPR for “consumer” boilers posted after October 13 deadline:

  • Gas Analytic & Advocacy Services (GAAS):  ID EERE-2019-BT-STD-0036-0075
    These are my comments as summarized above.
  • PHCC (Plumbing-Heating-Cooling Contractors—National Association) Consumer Boiler: ID EERE-2019-BT-STD-0036-0088
    As expected from a contractor trade association, PHCC provided an excellent real world rebuttal to DOE’s artificial lowballing of installation costs
  • Burnham Holdings LLC (BHI):  ID EERE-2019-BT-STD-0036-0074
    BHI is the parent of several boiler manufacturers.  Their 179-pages of comments detailed how EERE is not following its own rules and did an exceptional job refuting EERE’s claimed boiler life expectancy of 26.9 years.  BHI also laid waste the EERE’s shipment assumptions along with many more that collectively over-estimated claimed economics (as usual).
  • Joint States Attorneys General (AG):  ID EERE-2019-BT-STD-0036-0076. 21 State AG’s filed joint comments opposing EERE’s NOPR on the basis of ignoring numerous policies (such as Federalism) violation of EPCA, etc.
  • HARDI (Heating, Air-conditioning & Refrigeration Distributors International) comments DOE Energy Conservation Standards for Consumer Boilers: ID EERE-2019-BT-STD-0036-0079
    HARDI’s comments oppose EERE’s NOPR on the basis of violating both EPCA and the Regulatory Flexibility Act (RFA).  HARDI’s comments also refute EERE’s claims for positive consumer benefits.
  • Energy Marketers of America (EMA):  ID EERE-2019-BT-STD-0036-0087
    EMA is a federation of 48 state and regional trade associations representing family-owned and operated small business energy marketers throughout the United States.  EMA opposes EERE’s NOPR because it fails to meet the criteria set forth in EPCA for new and amended conservation standards, are not technically feasible and cannot be economically justified due to the economic burden it will place on manufacturers and consumers alike. Finally, the NOPR will not result in significant energy savings since older inefficient systems will likely remain in operation without any alternative equipment that most consumers can afford.
  • EERE-2019-BT-STD-0036-0089
    Joint gas industry commenters include the American Gas Association (AGA) , the American Public Gas Association (APGA), the National Propane Gas Association (NPGA), and Spire, Inc.  Their comments are outlined and addressed as follows:
  • The proposed standard violates the unavailability provisions of the Energy Policy and Conservation Act (“EPCA”).
  • DOE’s analysis seriously mischaracterizes the boiler market and there are fundamental errors in how DOE analyzed installation costs.
  • DOE’s use of random assignment systematically skews the results of the economic analyses that underpin the proposal.
  • DOE’s analysis is based on an unreasonable assessment of the facts relevant to boiler installations.
  • DOE’s proposal will negatively impact American manufacturing and jobs.

The above “random assignment” methodology is highlighted because it indicates that EERE is ignoring the admonishment they recently were dealt for their Final Rule for commercial boilers which, as I described earlier, was remanded by United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit.  I call that contempt. If this docket for “consumer” boilers is finalized, it stands a good chance that the court will also view it as contemptuous.

The joint gas industry comments also included a two-part (561 pages in total) attachment that provides an exhaustive history of related filings, many of which I wrote hile employed by Spire. This filing and its attachment indicate that the joint gas industry plans on appealing should this NOPR be finalized.

  • AHRI (Air-Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute ): ID EERE-2019-BT-STD-0036-0086AHRI’s 29 pages of comments covered a lot of ground. What I found most intriguing was the following discussion under the heading “DOE Should Account for Uncertainty Around its Estimates” at page 19.  Excerpts follow:

The calculations in the LCC contain at least 18 independent variables (Table 1), each of which DOE has estimated in some fashion. In its peer review report, the National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine specifically recommended that DOE account accurately for the uncertainty and variability and that “the uncertainty or variability the parameters represent should be compounded or propagated—properly accounting for any correlations— throughout the calculation.”25 While DOE has attempted to understand and account for variability in some of these variables, it has not and does not account for the uncertainty around its estimates. AHRI questions whether DOE’s estimates are accurate.

AHRI then goes on to list such variables.  It’s a long list, taking up the next page and a half. The intriguing part for me personally is that EERE’s initial advisory panel, back in the mid ‘90’s, (that I was appointed to) made similar observations and recommendations.  Basically, we advised EERE to provide stakeholders the capability to independently perform “what-if” scenarios around such variables. What we got was EERE’s adoption of “Crystal Ball” which is high-end proprietary Monte Carlo software that EERE used to obscure, rather than illuminate, sensitivity analyses. This is the same software that EERE still uses for the aforementioned “random assignment” methodologies to falsely “determine” consumer benefits.

There were also several anonymous comments opposing this NOPR.  And of course, there were the usual suspects commenting in favor of this NOPR.  There were also a few comments that were difficult to say whether they were for or against the NOPR.  One of these was Rheem Manufacturing Company: ID EERE-2019-BT-STD-0036-0080.

Rheem comments elected to address EERE’s list of questions. One of these questions and Rheem’s reply indicates they support EERE’s ≥95% AFUE proposal and mission (“creep”) towards minimizing CO2 as follows:

14. DOE requests comments on its approach for developing efficiency trends beyond 2030. Rheem supports the ≥95% AFUE proposed by DOE for gas-fired hot water boilers. If finalized, the only significant increase in energy efficiency beyond 2030 would be with heat pump technology. Rheem understands that there are two main goals of the appliance standards program: 1) to reduce energy use and 2) to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, both in a responsible way that preserves consumer choice and product utility. Rheem recommends DOE evaluate hydrogen blends and full hydrogen boilers, which could reduce energy use while almost fully eliminating greenhouse gas emissions.,

I guess I overlooked the section under EPCA that EERE’s mission includes reducing greenhouse gas emissions. But I agree that EERE has unilaterally made it their mission.

Rheem (inadvertently?) provided a useful “heads up” that warrants discussion as follows:

Rheem notes that the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) is set to propose a rule11 to establish a safety standard for residential gas-fired furnaces and boilers.

Footnote 11 provides the reference:

CPSC Carbon Monoxide Rulemaking Docket: https://www.regulations.gov/docket/CPSC-2019-0020

The following links are to CPSC meetings covering this matter:

Personally, I wasn’t aware of this situation within the CPSC, but it sounds to me like more of the SOS that started all the controversy over gas cooking and woke the sleeping giant that justly is the American consumer.  Unfortunately, the comment period is long ended and the CPSC is pondering its next move.

Conclusions

Overall, the number of commenters in opposition well exceeded those in favor. Regardless, I expect EERE will finalize this NOPR (with some minor adjustments perhaps) and then the 60-day window starts under the Administrative Procedures Act to challenge a Final Rule.  If litigated, I hope that my articles will help make the case that EERE deserves no legal deference and, instead, should be sunsetted, or at least their appliance efficiency standards program.

Since this article is an update, there are four more news items worthy of mention.  These are:

  1. Supreme Court passes on red state challenge to Biden ‘social cost of carbon’ rule
    Most online news entities have a version of this.  The recurring theme is that the “red” states failed to adequately show harm. In other words, showing harm that is yet to come doesn’t count.  Although I have some ideas of my own, I ask MasterResource readers to list in the comments section below any historical examples of historic harm that may qualify.
  2. AGA, APGA and NPGA File Legal Challenge to the DOE Final Rule for Commercial Water Heating
    On October 5th, EERE issued a final rule requiring more stringent energy efficiency standards for commercial water heaters. It requires gas-fired storage water heaters to have a 95% thermal efficiency (condensing) and 96% thermal efficiency for gas-fired instantaneous water heaters. On October 13th, AGA, APGA, and NPGA filed a petition with the US Court of Appeals for DC challenging the DOE CWH Final Rule. This is very good news as it indicates that gas industry trade associations are getting better organized and have a willingness to fight for both their customers’ free choice and their own interests for staying in business.  For a copy of the filing (USCA Case #23-1285 Document #2021854) click here.
  3. Climate Documentary Debuts on NewsmaxA professional attempt (but not the first[3][4]) at opening the long overdue debate regarding the “climate crisis.”
  4. National Propane Gas Association et. al. sue the State of New York over pending gas ban
    An official press release is located here: NY Lawsuit
    The legal filing is located here: NY Complaint

[1] DOE misuse of “random assignment,” and the vast implications thereof, is technically complicated to put it mildly.  The Joint gas industry comments (ID EERE-2019-BT-STD-0036-0089) provide a detailed explanation of this analytical cheat.  WARNING: Explaining the deeply complex devil-in-the-details of “random assignment” constitutes half of the 35 pages of the joint gas industry’s filing (starting at page 11 and ending at page 28).

[2] Ibid

[3] https://eelegal.org/policy-2/#ElectrificationReport

[4] https://blog.friendsofscience.org/2021/12/21/the-cost-of-net-zero-electrification-of-the-u-s-a/

————–

Mark Krebs, a mechanical engineer and energy policy consultant, has been involved with energy efficiency design and program evaluation for over thirty years. Mark has served as an expert witness in dozens of State energy efficiency proceedings, has been an advisor to DOE and has submitted scores of Federal energy-efficiency filings. His many MasterResource posts on natural gas vs. electricity and “Deep Decarbonization” federal policy can be found here.

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strativarius
October 25, 2023 2:48 am

This sort of thing isn’t new. I recall when the EU decided to ‘do something‘ about vacuum cleaners.

“Consumers are being urged to buy powerful vacuum cleaners while they can after it emerged that some of the most powerful models on the market will disappear in September when a new EU rule comes into force.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/21/anger-as-eu-bans-most-powerful-vacuum-cleaners

Result? Longer cleaning times and more elbow grease, of course.

When it comes to the dogs dinner that is UK energy policy, the push against gas boilers isn’t going very well at all. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

“…the government is increasing the grants available for heat pump installations under its Boiler Upgrade Scheme from £5000 to £7500.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/24/heat-pumps-boiler-upgrade-scheme-grant/

The problem? Old housing stock and in many cases very old housing stock that is often listed. It would be futile, nay insane, to consider installing an heat pump before an house has been effectively sealed against the elements with oodles of insulation of divers types – walls, windows, roofspaces etc etc

“…the Boiler Upgrade Scheme grants do not necessarily cover the full cost of installation or any recommended property renovations. 

homeowners need to insulate their homes first, or do it as part of the application process.”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-67059247

And doing that that is way, way more expensive than just a mere heat pump, or even some radiators thrown in. So, for such a madcap scheme to work the housing stock has to be fully insulated, because if it is not you’ll have to get creative…

“Nigel Cleall, 52, decided to take the drastic measure after being given one of the controversial air source heat pumps being pushed by the UK government.

He says the shoddily installed system – propped up on two bricks – failed to heat his home properly leaving him with black mould in his bathroom and son’s bedroom. In a bid to warm his freezing home last year, Nigel covered the walls and ceilings of the property in Martley, Worcs., with cardboard he bought for £1 off eBay.

He has since spent £140 on polystyrene wall tiles which he has placed over the cardboard in his bedroom, living room and hallway.”
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1827043/home-insulation-diy-heating-bills

I would imagine that the US might have younger stock, but it was built during the old paradigm…. of progress.

atticman
Reply to  strativarius
October 25, 2023 2:57 am

Cardboard? Polystyrene wall tiles? I just hope his house doesn’t catch fire!

strativarius
Reply to  atticman
October 25, 2023 3:09 am

I doubt he can afford an EV somehow. He has a landlord…… he lives in social housing – Platform Housing Group.

Reply to  strativarius
October 25, 2023 10:42 am

Sue the social housing for causing climate change!!!

Reply to  strativarius
October 25, 2023 4:14 am

“It would be futile, nay insane, to consider installing an heat pump before an house has been effectively sealed against the elements…”

And think how happy your old oil or natural gas furnace will be once you’ve done that since it’ll hardly have much work to do- rather than installing at great cost a heat pump. My new oil furnace here in Wokeachusetts pumps hot water around the house just fine. Hot water systems keep the temperature steady- better than pumping hot air around.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 25, 2023 4:25 am

As a former resident of Connecticut, I solved my heating problem by moving to south Florida.

Reply to  Tom in Florida
October 25, 2023 6:07 pm

by moving to south Florida.

Don’t get too cocky, your house in Florida could be inundated in a few hundred years if melting glaciers keep melting.

I live at 37S close to water that gets down to 9C in winter and frost occurs a few days a year. I need winter heating.

Imagine if everyone moved to sub-tropical and tropical zones to avoid the need to heat.

strativarius
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 25, 2023 4:35 am

once you’ve done that “

But that is the point, Joseph. Most have no hope of affording it. You are talking about huge costs per house – virtually rebuilding them. In fact, in many cases it would be far cheaper to demolish and start again. Whole terraces in thousands of streets? Some think it possible….

“Unfortunately, we are going to have to do this house by house, because it’s not just the house. It’s how people live in the house,” 
https://twtrno.dynu.net/news/2023/10/21/octopus-energy-heat-pumps-installation-net-zero/

Now, that’s what I call deluded.

Reply to  strativarius
October 25, 2023 4:45 am

Well, if you were still in the EU you could move to Sicily! I only wish I could afford to retire to the Mediteranean. Since all my grandparents came from Italy- I’ve always wanted to bike much of that nation or now, I’d love to retire there. Can’t afford it because, as an honest forestry consultant, I didn’t make enough money, like the lazy government foresters.

strativarius
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 25, 2023 5:17 am

I happened to be hitched to an Italian…..

Funny thing. Back in 1980 I put all my documentation into the Italian embassy (Grosvenor Square) for my application for citizenship. Including an irreplaceable Metropolitan Borough of Battersea birth certificate. What happened?

An explosion wrecked the Italian Consulate in London, UK, on Monday (24 March) and police believe it was caused by someone with a grudge rather than being the work of a terrorist group.
https://www.britishpathe.com/asset/179926/

All gone. Poof.

strativarius
Reply to  strativarius
October 25, 2023 5:23 am

Er, still am hitched!

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 25, 2023 11:36 am

“Zorzin” is Italian??? Some Ellis Island official couldn’t handle the “O” on the end?

Reply to  PCman999
October 25, 2023 12:02 pm

100%. There are a lot of variations on that name some with vowels at the end and some without. My research on it indicates it goes back to Greece as the Ottomans were chewing up the Byzantine Empire. Many of the Greeks weren’t interested in fighting Turks and headed north through the Balkans- this is about 1,000 years ago. There is a Hotel Zorzin in Croatia. Others headed to NE Italy where my grandparents came from. My other grandparents were from Abruzzo. I gotta get over there someday.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  strativarius
October 25, 2023 9:55 am

You know they are lying about heat pumps when they start saying they are 300% more efficient than gas boilers!

By the way current prices for energy in UK are 7p per kWh for gas and 27p per kWh for electricity (both inclusive of VAT)

That makes electricity almost 4 times more expensive – but,you know, ‘clean green energy’ is coming to the rescue someday, decade or century soon!

Doug Huffman
Reply to  strativarius
October 25, 2023 5:41 am

“I recall when the EU decided to ‘do something‘ about vacuum cleaners. … Result? Longer cleaning times and more elbow grease, of course.“

No. There are physical limits on the power of a ‘vacuum cleaner’; air cannot exceed the speed of sound, and vacuum pressure cannot exceed a perfect vacuum. Excess ‘hoover’ power presents as noise, hence the EU limit 83 dB on household appliances.

strativarius
Reply to  Doug Huffman
October 25, 2023 5:47 am

No, the EU decided….

And so it seems have you – for your own bonkers reasons

October 25, 2023 5:35 am

As I’ve worked it out, to my own satisfaction, the problem with Condensing Boilers is a Surfeit of Safety

This starts with the fuel itself = natural gas
A colourless odourless substance with a propensity (as all gases do) to escape from wherever you try to put/keep/store/move it

The real hazard is then that the inevitable escape will be undetected and as us humans have an insane capacity for setting things on fire – nothing else can happen but that we will blow ourselves up
(All ‘Wildfires‘ are man made. All of them, every last one. There is No Such Thing as a True Wild Fire. I’ll explain sometime)

So, the quest for safety safety safety starts with putting a stinky substance in with the gas. No easy task for a gas but lo & behold, Sulphur comes to the rescue with some incredibly stinky (and toxic) compounds

Fine, we can tell when the gas has escaped and call for help.

When gaseous Sulphur compounds are burned and or extremely heated in an Oxygen environment, they make Sulphur Dioxide, itself readily further oxidised to Sulphur Trioxide
The suicidal death wish then shifts into top gear as the burning process also produces water – something which both of those Sulphur compounds have truly epic affinity.

So far so good because the burning process is very hot and the Sulphur/water mix remains as a gas/vapour until it well-mixed with huge amounts of fresh air after being exhausted from the boiler/heater/furnace via the flue-pipe or chimney.
This sort (any sort) of Sulphur would be of immense use in the process of Global Greening – farmers certainly nowadays can hardly get enough of the stuff and if any ‘just happens’ to fall down out of the sky – fantastic. Truly.

But no, this cannot be allowed to happen so the flue gases must be condensed.
And there-in the real magic occurs, especially in a very warm place like a flue-pipe – extremely strong Sulphuric Acid is created as a liquid.

Inside the delicate little high tech flower that burned the gas.

That stuff eats almost anything, stainless steel has to be the right type and even then, after a few years it’s totally wasted. It goes through concrete with the same ease as it goes through people and as a hot knife goes through butter

And then, beauty of beauty heaped upon beauteous beauty, they imagine that pumping Sulphur into the sky will solve the climate crisis.
Erm excuse me Dumbo – why didn’t the existing/ordinary non-condensing gas boilers, all x squillion of them, already solve the crisis with the Sulphur they were emitting = the sulphur you insisted on putting there?

But no, madness prevails and it was/is the boilers that created the crisis

The folks behind all this are quite perfectly insane and there no longer seems to be any way of penetrating the fantastical and reality-removed bubble they now exist in.

as the essay here tells us

Mr Ed
Reply to  Peta of Newark
October 25, 2023 8:33 am

Condensing in boilers refers to the temperature of the return water. The problem
as I understand it is when the return water is below say 150F it corrodes the boiler
wall, which shortens the life of the boiler. It’s a huge deal on sold fuel boilers, like
wood or coal and gas also. The new boilers don’t last very long according to a
plumber I know due to that factor.

Rick C
Reply to  Mr Ed
October 25, 2023 1:20 pm

No. Condensing refers to the water formed in combustion being condensed to recapture the latent heat of vaporization. Without recapturing this heat the maximum efficiency is less than 90%. This requires flue gas temperatures to be close to ambient which also means return boiler water temperature has to be low.

Mr Ed
Reply to  Rick C
October 26, 2023 11:53 am

Thanks for the clarification. I bought a woodgas boiler a number of years
ago, some call it a “a thinking mans wood burner”. It’s tied in to my main
heat system. I had a master plumber help me and do the final hookup. It has
a near boiler loop that runs till 150* then switches to the main primary loop.
It has a barometric air valve on it’s exhaust pipe all single wall which I’ve
never seen on a wood burner. This thing is a beast when it’s up to temp
and running, epa says it’s 98%+ efficient. I can put my bare hand on the single
wall flue , no smoke just smell like somethings cooking when out side. But it
is not like the propane boiler as it wants the return water to be above 150* or
it will corrode the wall and it’s also pressurized unlike all other wood boilers.
When it’s gasifying and I open the lower door the flame which is down burning
looks like the flame on a oxy/act cutting torch but much larger 24″ long by 6+”.

Dena
Reply to  Mr Ed
October 25, 2023 6:43 pm

Something I saw indicate the problem is the water condenses in a rich carbon dioxide environment causing carbonic acid to form. If you have a copper drain pipe, you need to replace it with plastic. The inside of the furnace must be made of a substance that can resist this mild acid because while it’s not a strong acid, the exposure is long term.
In a normal furnace, water is never allowed to from so the problem leave through the vent pipe.

rhs
October 25, 2023 5:47 am

News tip – since we’re poking at models based on delusions and bad info:
https://techxplore.com/news/2023-10-world-solar-power.amp

Mr Ed
October 25, 2023 8:04 am

Ol man winter showed up last night 8F with a 1/2 a foot of snow at daybreak. Fired up the wood
boiler last night and life is good. It does have a EPA energy star sticker….I guess that’s
a good thing. .A wood fueled shower is worth the effort to fuel it. Government clerks
regulating things like heating systems is not a good thing based on experience.

Gums
October 25, 2023 8:49 am

Salute!

To be honest, I am getting scared about what is happening with the U.S. agencies dictating things like miles per gallon, “energy efficiency” requirements for your home heating, cooling, cooking and insulation and, and….

How about you?

Oh yeah… your mode of transportation. Sheesh, that is likely biggest and most prompt threat to our freedom here in the U.S. from the agancies. The “electric uber alles” folks must all live in dense housing like NYC – you know thousands of people per square mile and order food or walk a half block to a local deli. GASP! Just the infrastructure required to go all electric boggles the mind. And where to get all the volts and amps from someplace I can’t see the smoke or the turbine blades or …..?

Finishing my rant, but I need an engineer to explain how the end-to-end energy use happens using the heat pumps that many ignorant pols plus warmistas think will save the planet.

I have lived in extremely cold places and quite warm ones ( besides my time in the military). If your heat pump is using outside air for the process, you better have $$$ for your bill if you have a week or so of temperature down below 35 or 40 deg F and wish to have 55 or 60 deg F inside. Oh yeah, hope rest of neighborhood ain’t on electric heating systems or brownouts and even blackouts loom.

Gums rants…

Mark
Reply to  Gums
October 25, 2023 11:03 am

Hey Gums, maybe this will help

Google the following:
Fallacies of Supplying American LNG and Electric Heat Pumps to Europe to Fight Putin and Global Warming

John Oliver
October 25, 2023 9:30 am

In my business we install the SS flue ( chimney liners) for HE appliances ( condensing appliances. HE means lower flue temp thus more condensate mixed also with corrosive byproducts in combustion process) A HE appliance exhausted into a masonry flue not good- massive condensate and potential rapid deterioration of said brick mortar and fire clay flue liner. And there and be draft issues which is why most HE have mechanical not natural draft(motor exhaust fan with electronic damper) Complex integrated system indeed with ECM

SS liner must never be connected to the previous galvanized connector pipes or a separate hot water heater connector pipe if just a HE furnace as opposed to a boiler.

Then there is all the little stray currents and potential for galvanic corrosion even in the best designed HE boilers. Some work great are trouble free and pay back , others not so much.

But in the end it is a economic trade off denied to the consumer( affordability opportunity cost etc)

What is a bigger threat and more insane is the banning of NG/ propane entirely which is what they really want.

John Oliver
Reply to  John Oliver
October 25, 2023 9:35 am

Some modern HE you can just exhaust right out the side of the house with a plastic like pipe. That’s how low the exhaust temp is on some units. But there are code and location considerations

Gums
Reply to  John Oliver
October 25, 2023 10:11 am

Great post, John….

Having used fireplaces at several homes while moving to new assignments, I saw some of the problems you mentioned with the flues/chimneys. And I can appreciate the temperature and chemical reactions depending upon both the exhaust material and the temperature and then the exhaust path that can “condense’ stuff for future problems.

The complexity and maintenance of the “condensing” systems could be a greater problem down south, especially along the Gulf coast, than up north or in the mountains out west. From basic anec-to-total experience down here in Florida, the gas water heater and winter furnace heater exhausts still work fine and have had good inspections for over 30 years. Of course, heating is no problem even when temps get down to freezing or below ( we in north Florida).

Our fishing cabin in high mountains cannot function with only electric heating. It needs a gas or propane furnace due to very cold nights from October to May. And I guarantee my North Dakota apartment I lived in when active duty would not have survived with a heat pump, so we had a fuel oil furnace.

Very good info, John, thanks…

Neo
October 25, 2023 9:59 am

JustTheNews:

Experts say 50 million miles of new power lines needed for green energy, and that may be impossible

Some estimates say the U.S. needs to build over 700,000 miles of transmission lines to reach its own renewable energy goals: enough to circle the globe 2,000 times.

A 700-mile transmission line starting in Wyoming cost $3 billion and took 15 years to clear regulatory permits.

Gums
Reply to  Neo
October 25, 2023 11:46 am

Good point, Neo….actually two points.

I have to tell my friends who like electric vehicles because they “don’t smoke” and are quiet – where do you get the volts and amps from? You ain’t saving the planet because the volts are likely from a fossil fuel plant far away, but you are maybe helping local air pollution. I explain that if all their neighbors are charging their cars, that their neighborhood will need new, really big wires and likely a buncha extra transformers. Otherwise, expect brownouts and blackouts and such.

Second point, Neo, is I ask them about getting all the permits and doing all the studies to get all the new wiring/transmission lines in place. Seems that the ambitious projects must meet many environmental and safety requirements the electric proponents for your home and vehicle do not know about. So I can easily slow down and make expensive new infrastructure projects to the extent they will get frustrated and angry. You know, the govmit should have known all this before promising a clean, green electrical future.

But no. C02 is the evil force that must be eliminated at any cost. And the unintended consequences of moving to a “carbon free” Earth are already begining to make an impact on daily life.

Gums sends…

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Neo
October 25, 2023 12:29 pm

Two words: Carrington Event

Reply to  Neo
October 25, 2023 4:38 pm

and that may be impossible

Nonsense, you just need to get everyone to wish hard enough!

October 25, 2023 10:39 am

Isn’t there a rule or law preventing agencies from lying?

Reply to  PCman999
October 25, 2023 11:41 am

Only if those lies breach the US constitution or amendments, that you can prove that they knowingly lied and that by doing so they have caused harm or limited the freedom of other US citizens. Otherwise, nope, nothing.

Bob
October 25, 2023 11:59 am

Scrap the Department of Energy, the Environmental Protection Agency, the Department of Education and get out of the United Nations. There is lots more we can do but this is a start.

Lee Riffee
October 25, 2023 12:53 pm

It’s about time that manufacturers (well, at least most of them) and trade organizations are stepping up to fight these nonsense regulations. The only thing I can’t help but wonder is why has it taken so long? It isn’t like this stuff was all of the sudden sprung on consumers and industry….it didn’t just happen overnight!
I remember when this climate change (or global warming, as it was called back then) nuttiness got going in earnest in the early 90’s. Clinton was president then and there was talk about going after CO2 emissions back then. I remember thinking that one day, they (meaning government) would set about going after devices that burn fuel. If I could see the direction that was heading way back then, 30 years ago, why have others (especially others who have a lot more stake and much more to lose, like manufacturers) been so blind?
It’s good they are reacting this way, but IMO it might end up being like trying to fight off an invading army once it has already breached the city walls. Being vigilant and seeing the invading army coming from far away (where there is the chance of stopping it before gets close) is a much more successful tactic than waiting until you are swarmed with invaders – and then trying to fight them off.

Now the fight (this and the fight against EV mandates) will be much harder because the enemy has taken so much ground it’s going to be hell to try to reclaim it. And not only reclaim what’s been lost, but to send the enemy packing!

October 26, 2023 10:14 am

You know what they say, “You’ll have to buy (prb’ly rent) poor performing, vastly overpriced appliances, and you’ll like it.”

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