Amtrak’s new high-speed trains have been delayed again because the tracks they’re supposed to run on are too old and busted
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/amtraks-new-high-speed-trains-have-been-delayed-again-because-the-tracks-theyre-supposed-to-run-on-are-too-old-and-busted/ar-AA1bZCgc
The eagerly awaited debut of Amtrak’s new high-speed trains has once again been pushed back, marking the third consecutive year of delays. According to Amtrak, these setbacks are attributed to difficulties in meeting federal safety standards on the outdated Northeast Corridor tracks. While Amtrak and its train manufacturer, Alstom, assure the public that the trains themselves are not to blame, skeptics of government projects aimed at achieving greener modes of transportation remain unconvinced.
Amtrak’s slow progress in introducing their next-generation Acela trains has left passengers frustrated. Initially scheduled for a Spring 2021 launch, the debut has been postponed once again, this time to 2024, due to complications in passing federal safety benchmarks.
Amtrak’s spokesperson acknowledged the desire to introduce the new trainsets promptly, but emphasized that safety requirements must be met before they can be put into passenger service. Alstom, the manufacturer, points to the aging and specific characteristics of the Amtrak infrastructure, particularly the tracks, as the primary challenge. According to an Alstom spokesperson,
The modeling of the wheel to track interface is particularly complex due to age, condition, and specific characteristics of Amtrak infrastructure on the Northeast corridor, and especially the existing tracks.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/amtraks-new-high-speed-trains-have-been-delayed-again-because-the-tracks-theyre-supposed-to-run-on-are-too-old-and-busted/ar-AA1bZCgc
This admission raises concerns among skeptics about the viability of implementing new technologies on outdated infrastructure.
The trainsets were previously delayed by the coronavirus pandemic in 2021 and again in 2022.
The introduction of the new Acela trainsets faces a significant hurdle in meeting the Federal Railroad Administration’s Tier III regulations, which impose stringent safety standards for high-speed trains. Alstom explains that extensive investigations and testing activities are being conducted to ensure compliance with these regulations. While safety is paramount, skeptics question whether the lengthy process of meeting these standards could have been better anticipated and managed.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/amtraks-new-high-speed-trains-have-been-delayed-again-because-the-tracks-theyre-supposed-to-run-on-are-too-old-and-busted/ar-AA1bZCgc
Amtrak’s three-year delay in commencing service with the new Acela trains underscores a fundamental challenge facing the United States in adopting higher-speed rail systems. The nation struggles to integrate next-generation transportation within dated infrastructure systems. The Northeast Corridor, particularly between Boston and Washington, is known for its rundown tracks, with some sections dating back 150 years. This lack of modernization and infrastructure upgrades has been a subject of concern for railroad officials and politicians aiming to improve services in this densely populated region.
Amtrak’s ongoing delays in launching their high-speed trains have garnered skepticism from those wary of government projects aimed at achieving greener transportation.
The outdated infrastructure has raised questions about the efficiency and efficacy of such endeavors.
To read the article originally from MSN via Business Insider, click here.
HT/resourceguy
It’s not so much dated as it is different. The US runs heavy freight trains. 95% of the crossties in American railroads are wood. That percentage is growing. Concrete crossties lack the flexibility of wood. When they fail, they fail fast. Nothing degraded about it – they turn to powder. They beat the trucks (wheels) and track because they are rigid. In America, high speed passenger trains need a right-of-way to call their own. They are light and they need very tight tolerances to operate at those speeds. Pay the piper. Look at the California rail debacle, they are doing it right and they can’t afford it. Amtrak’s head girl’s were thinking magical thoughts. You can’t do what they want to do. It will be delayed and it will never operate at the intended speeds.
Yes, High speed and AMTRAK must have their own ROW.
I did not know of the deficiencies of concrete sleepers that you report. I believe other first world nations are transitioning to concrete sleepers.
UK railways worked it out – concrete sleepers are waaaaay too hard – on the train, the passengers, the track itself and themselves
Wooden sleepers give a little bit of ‘bounce’
The Chinese had a problem with their hi-speed endeavours = basically, their trains kept jumping off the track once they got up to anywhere close their intended TrainWarpSpeed
As I understood, it’s the effect we all know of dropping a steel ball/marble onto a tiled floor.
Contrary to what many folks think, the steel marble bounces incredibly well – much better than a classic RubberBouncyBall ever would/could
A high speed train, on a concrete track is the exact same situation – the train ‘hits’ the track as it moves along and, via Newton’s action/reaction, both the track and the train ‘bounce’
It’s the ‘bounce’ in the track that was diagnosed as the Chinese problem.
The locomotive/engine (the really heavy bit) at the front of the train creates a shock-wave in the track and shockwave/ripple/tsunami shoots away in both directions – ahead of the train and also backwards and beneath the train.
It happens for all trains but normal slo-speed trains never notice because the wave moves so very fast (speed of sound in steel) compared the train.
Picture it as an upside down cosine wave where the front of the train is the negative peak (impact point)
For hi speed trains though, dependant on their length, track temperature and not least their speed, the rear of the train can meet the positive peak of that cosine wave – the track is trying to push it up while it is trying to push down.
As we know from steel marbles bouncing so well – so does the train.
Imagine the tiled floor coming up to meet the falling marble – how high will it bounce then?
Upshot is that the back end of the train is ‘bounced’ off the track by the shockwave coming from the front of the train – and there will always be ‘some’ speed where it will happen once you try to nudge 200mph+
The front of the train can also come to grief by ‘discontinuities’ in the track in front of it – especially any classic expansion joints.
Such as at stations, level crossings and of course ‘points’ where trains need to change tracks.
The shock-wave headed out forwards, if it sees a ‘discontinuity’, will reflect at that boundary and come right back at the train.
So again, distance speed and temp dependant, the front of the train can find itself on the positive peak of the cosine when it is trying to create a negative peak.
And when there is no ‘give’, bounce or damping in that situation, the irresistible force (the shockwave) wins out and throws the immovable object (the train) off its tracks
(Possibly why the Chinese came unstuck was with their notorious (lack of) Quality Control.
Any hi-speed track would have to be ‘all welded track’ and poorly welded joints would act as discontinuities, reflecting the shock wave back onto the oncoming train -thus derailing the crate.
That has got to be the ‘quality’ element of the complaint here with Amtrak and why the California effort is becoming so expensive….
Effectively, every welded joint along the entire (high speed portion) of the track Has To Be Perfect – else the thing will derail itself
We are talking nuclear power station levels of quality control on all those welds.
Meanwhile, here’s a lovely bit of cross threading..
It’s got snow, mountains, a train, AI (drones), trees and everything.
It’s even got pianos, his Lud’ship will well away….
Maybe not me too much, heights ain’t my strongest feature
Learn2Dance, you know you want to…
It is a nice track.
haha. sorry.
edit/reply: Realisation.
The high speed train is behaving exactly as a ‘Newton’s Cradle’ – bouncing off itself.
Using wooden sleepers effectively puts a tiny bit of cotton wool, or even paper, between the marbles of the cradle – they don’t bounce too good then and the cradle stops as soon as you start it.
This phenomenon was known due to the frozen turkey episode on WKRP.
The speed of sound in steel is 5960 m/s.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-admin-issues-20-year-oil-drilling-ban-ignoring-pleas-native-americans
5.960 X 60 X 60 = 20,145.6 km/hr.
The difference between a 50km/hr train and a 200km/hr train won’t make any difference.
On the other hand, the faster a train is going, the harder it is going to hit the rails, so that could be what is making the larger shock wave.
I think the relevant physics is about vibrational modes in supported beams. 4th order p.d.e.s vaguely return to my memory.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/structures-vibration-frequency-d_1989.html
If that is true – and I have no knowledge whether it is or is not – maybe the best answer is to run shorter trains at the higher speeds? Then those non-existent “last carriages” cannot derail.. Seems an exercise in futility, as it becomes less profitable as speed increases. Why bother? Aren’t current speeds good enough?
“Look at the California rail debacle, they are doing it right and they can’t afford it.”
But I wonder if it has to be so expensive? Does CA have to pay top union wages as any such project in MA does? How much is pilfered by the politicians and contractors? Are bids for the work truly competitive? As I noted- here in MA, any state funded projects must hire only union workers at absurdly high wages.
If it’s a government contract, they have to pay the highest union wages.
A new CA law will result in goat herders monthly salaries increased from $3,730 to $14,000. Goats are employed to eat eat the invasive grasses and other plants that provide such great tinder for starting and spreading wild fires. Companies that own the goats and employee herders to care for and direct them on location say they will be unable to stay in business at that cost, so even this small effort at forest management in CA in likely to be killed by the new legislation.
I can’t stand your negativity. If we really believe we can do it, we can do it. And this will be the best yearbook ever.
Might want to mention all the dangerous curves, old tunnels, etc. in centuries old track layout that would put numerous speed limits in place compared to straight arrow raceways. Somehow those other countries accomplished that track layout and the U.S. is still in colonial and civil war era networks. The shiny engines will not straighten the path and the infrastructure billions used on projects will be spotty at best, i.e. no comprehensive plans to be found.
Most of those other countries are smaller than many US states. Much of Europe’s railways were blown to bits during WWII so are a lot newer than those found in the US.
I think the jury is hung on concrete ties vs. wood ties.
Amtrak seems to love concrete ties. The big freight railroads have also installed tons of them.
So far, it doesn’t seem like concrete ties have lived up to the promised service life, which was the basis for using them over wood to begin with.
Metro North, which operates various commuter operations in NY and CT, has soured on concrete ties after a “bad batch” resulted in wholesale replacement of miles of them in the Greenwich, CT area. Although the ties themselves were replaced under warranty, I don’t think cost of the removal of the “bad” ties and installation of the replacement ties was, nor were any additional costs due to operating disruptions while the project was ongoing.
Early concrete tie installations also experienced high failure rates when railroads didn’t allow their cure period to run before installing them. In wet environments, they sometimes erode quickly from water draining through the ballast.
Where the future lies, who knows.
Passenger trains are such a stupid transit solution. Anyone who thinks they are valid should read Romance of the Rails. It concentrates on urban transit starting with the 1800s horse-drawn trolleys, but covers long distance passenger trains too. At every step of the way, governments first fought the new system to preserve the corrupt status quo, then accepted it, then defended it against the next new system. Passenger rail is about the most inefficient and expensive transit option possible, and Amtrak is just another example. The California High Speed Rail debacle is possibly the worst.
Jam tomorrow
Maybe the Amtrak team need to talk to the experts of delay and cost overrun.
Have they considered speaking to the HS2 team? There is a full on range of options for them to use to explain why nothing is being produced within a time those who are paying for it are still around to use it.
The ongoing farce that is HST2, another brewery piss up organised by the UK government
These people are not familiar with the concept of air travel. Safe, Cheap and Reliable. Available NOW at much lower cost.
No government, aka taxpayers, money involved in purchasing the aircraft
The ownership of aircraft is not real clear from what I’ve seen take
https://www.aircastle.com/ for example. Some of the large
public retirement funds have money/influence in a lot of different
places. One of Warren Buffets early books was about the money he
lost in aircraft/airlines and what he did to hedge the risks.
I remember comments in past WUWT articles complaining about Warren Buffet supposedly having investment in railroads and disliking pipelines that would take hauling business away from railroads.
Berkshire is the biggest player in the oil by rail industry in the US by
a huge amount. He wrote about his airline losses in the book
The Warren Buffett Way but didn’t follow his own advice and lost $5B
during the covid years in airlines..
Airports have both government subsidies and user fees. Airports that handle big airliners have security stuff that costs money. And, cost of a passenger rail car even per passenger-mile per day of being fully utilized seems to me as a lot less than that of a jetliner.
Having been on several Amtrak cars, I would be surprised if there is that much difference between the per passenger cost of a plane vs a train. Don’t forget to include the cost of the engine as well as the cost of the other cars needed to support the engine. Finally, you have to include the cost of the rails that the train is running on.
It’s been many years, but I once looked at a trip across several states comparing plane, bus, and train. Plane would have taken a few hours (3 I think), bus was an overnight trip, maybe a day and a half? Both were point to point. Train would have cost me closer to the plane than the bus, and was 3-4 days with several stops. It didn’t go anywhere near point-to-point.
Maybe it’s better now, but I haven’t bothered looking up train travel ever since.
The highspeed passenger rail location is said to be factored around the
” too far to drive and too short to fly” situation. The Brightline Orlando
to Miami round trip cost for a family of 4 is listed to be $400. The highway
on the FL east coast into Miami is said to be the 4th busiest the country
and a real stressful trip for commuters.
Out here in the west it would be air no question. I know several farm/ranch
operations that have vehicles in town and own a light plane
with a airstrip on the farm site.
“these setbacks are attributed to difficulties in meeting federal safety standards on the outdated Northeast Corridor tracks”
Sheesh! They didn’t think of this ahead of time?
In the world of project risk management for large mega-projects, playing games with the project’s risk analysis is often done to hide the impacts of those task items which carry the greatest cost and schedule risk.
Hiding the true cost and schedule risks of a large project inside a pencil-whipped risk analysis allows the project’s advocates to lowball the cost estimates in order to get the project sold to potential sponsors. This has the effect of ‘front-loading’ the project’s cost and schedule with task items which are certain to greatly exceed their originally estimated costs and times to complete.
Difficulties in meeting federal safety standards on the outdated Northeast Corridor tracks probably isn’t the only issue facing the project. A variety of smaller issues are likely affecting the project’s cost and schedule. The outdated tracks issue is likely being used as cover for hiding a number of smaller issues which in the aggregate have a similar total impact.
The longer a project runs beyond its originally estimated completion date, the greater are the project lifecycle overhead costs of maintaining the staff personnel and the project support infrastructure.
At fifty trillion dollars, Net Zero in the US has to be the largest front-loaded project by far in American history, bigger than fighting World War II. Bigger in fact by an order of magnitude than any project attempted anywhere in all of human history. And for no measurable effect in reducing the current rate of global warming.
Considering slowdown and speed up time for a train traveling at120 MPH a Five-minute stop at a station adds six minutes each stop. Thus, ten stops will add an hour to a trip from WDC to NYC. Now consider that this is a long-distance trip with baggage and kids – NOT a commute to work. That means each stop is going to add closer to 15 minutes delay for each stop on a high speed or “Bullet” train. If you only have three stops your time from WDC to NYC at 120 MPH, it is going to be in the order of three hours. And that ignores initial boarding and departure time. Thus, it is still close to driving yourself. Especially when you consider door to door of your trip will be less.
It’s been said that those who control the project’s assumptions control the world.
Manipulating a project risk analysis through the cherry picking of data and information, combined with pre-directed choices for which assumptions to include and which to reject, guarantees that a highly positive cost-benefit ratio will always be be produced for projects such as the Amtrak high speed train.
Your own analysis is correct, but only under the assumption that most people will still own a personal car allowing them to drive door to door after the Net Zero crowd gets through with us.
In the late 70’s I was involved with the initial planing studies for a high speed rail system for the State of Ohio. The idea was a regional system connecting all the major cities. It was sold on the idea of business use and that a lot of the travel time between city centers and airports was wasted.
My argument was that by the time this thing got designed and built, technology would allow instant video communication and data trasfers between businesses so there would be much less of a need for face to face meetings. A lot of guffawing about that and of course it went nowhere.
The actual plan eventually went to a $4B bond issue (which at the time was the largest public works project ever proposed in the US) which went down in flames.
I was long gone by then…
Are they thinking of the real requirements of net zero? Same mind set.
Trains run more slowly in the land of “American Exceptionalism”. Also in the land of “American Exceptionalism”, things cost more especially prescription drugs and medical care, and one country has most of the world’s medical bankruptcy. This country also has infant mortality and birthing mother mortality running world champion high among countries prosperous enough to have baby birthing being mostly done in hospitals.
Wow, is there anything you know that is actually true?
I don’t know where you are from, but if the only way for you to build up your home country, is by tearing down others, it can’t be a very pleasant place to live. Or perhaps the problem lies within yourself?
Trains run more slowly because we don’t waste money on feel good projects such as bullet trains that nobody’s going to ride.
Prescription drugs cost more for two main reasons. First, the government isn’t subsidizing the cost. Secondly, laws in other countries make it impossible for American companies to recover the cost of developing drugs in other countries. Their laws require drugs to be sold for the cost of manufacturing plus a small mark-up. Covering the cost of creating the drugs in the first place has to be borne by the American consumer.
It’s hardly surprising that countries that pay for their medical care by taxing the productive, don’t have a lot of people struggling to pay their medical bills. Instead you have 10’s of thousands of people every year who die while waiting for their turn to see a doctor. You seem to be proud of that.
You can always tell when a socialist has nothing intelligent to say, when they bring up infant mortality.
The simple minded can’t be bothered to actually examine how the data is collected. It looks good, so they run with it.
Every country calculates infant mortality. In the US, if the baby takes one breath after birth, it is counted as a live birth. If it then dies, it’s an infant mortality.
In other countries, if a baby dies within 24 hours of birth, it’s counted as a still birth, not an infant mortality.
In other countries, if the baby is under a certain weight and dies, it is counted as a miscarriage.
These aren’t the only differences, however you don’t care, do you. All you want to do is tear down America. Why? I leave that up to your psycho analyst to figure out.
Amtrak, their theme song is “In the ditch again”.
Someone should tell Amtrak that high speed rail and multiple station stops are mutually exclusive. Even the pre-Acela trains were capable of decent speeds if you don’t stop at every major city along the northeast corridor.
In the grand scheme of things, New York City and Washington DC are the only two cities on the east coast which matter. Everything in between is fly-over country and can be safely ignored.
Ironically, the original “high speed” trains on the “corridor,” the multiple unit “Metroliners,” had a NYC to DC schedule that was 15 minutes faster (2 hours. 30 minutes vs. 2 hours, 45 minutes) than the current “Acelas,” despite a lower permitted maximum speed (120mph vs. 150 mph) on much more “suspect” track than the Acelas enjoy.
There was a time when I used to ride Metroliners. Those took about an hour and 10-20 minutes between PHL and NYC, and about an hour & 40-45 minutes between PHL and Wash. DC, when they were running on time which they often didn’t. This means at best for Metroliners 2 hours 50 minutes from NYC to Wash. DC when they were on time during times when I rode them.
Go ahead and send the Acela trains to the railroad museums for the enjoyment of kids and families. Otherwise, we really need sleek and modern museums dedicated to Federal waste and mismanagement for grownups to learn. And don’t let this news (advocacy) story be a call for more stimulus programs for the squeaky wheel.
Rails to Trails is a better concept after exhausting all other costly possibilities.
“Americans Will Always Do the Right Thing…” – The Churchill Project – Hillsdale College
In a number of places the governments involved had to use eminent domain to revoke clauses in original transfer documents that the land being sold to the railroads was to revert to the original owners when the railroads were through with it.
I knew of all of these problems decades ago. Are you telling me that the well-remunerated smart people the government relies upon did not?
Well, you’re the economist, John.
First 125mph Brightline Test Train on the Orlando Line
OK, let me provide some perspective as someone who knows a good deal about American railroads.
First, the notion that the Northeast Corridor (“NEC”) is “old and busted” is nonsense. The Boston, MA – Washington, DC NEC track has been thoroughly rebuilt and has been well maintained for decades now, this is not the crumbling infrastructure of the Penn Central any more.
That’s not the issue.
The issue is that the NEC route is an assembly of rail lines laid out in the 19th Century. It has lots of speed restricted curves that one would never find on Europe’s purpose designed high speed rail trunk lines.
One of the delays was due to the inability to keep the pantagraphs (that collect electric power from the overhead catenary wire) in contact with the wire on the tight NEC curves. You have to remember that these new trains were designed to run on the very straight, purpose-built European high speed rail infrastructure.
As for the latest FRA regulation related delays, there is still a very limited amount of freight service (mostly local pickup and delivery plus some stone/gravel trains) operating on the NEC. FRA regulations historically apply very stringent crash standards to equipment operating on rail lines where freight and passenger trains both operate. This lead to the original Acela train sets being heavily customized for US requirements, which made them very heavy (they are often referred to as “bank vaults on wheels”).
Since the new train sets seem pretty much like “out of the box” European designs, there may have been some relaxation of what was seen as excessive FRA standards, or maybe some kind of exemption, I’m not sure. Haven’t seen the details of the latest delays yet.
So no, the NEC is not the arrow straight, purpose built high speed rail route these new trains were designed for, but it’s not some broken down Toonerville Trolley either.
I travelled on Amtrak between DC and NY sometime around 1970-71. The return journey was memorable for being extremely slow. Departure was delayed, and the tracks through New Jersey and Delaware were flooded, making any high speed journey impossible.
I wonder whether Amtrak have looked back in the records to be sure that their track programme is good enough to prevent a recurrence.