From the MANHATTAN CONTRARIAN
My previous post discussed a few aspects of the just-issued Tesla Report with the title “Sustainable Energy for All of Earth.” Today, I’ll poke around at a couple more.
If you were to try to read this Report (not recommended) you will quickly find your head spinning in a sea of numbers the significance of which is completely unclear. Was that last number expressed in kilowatts, megawatts, gigawatts, terawatts or petawatts? Is it big or small? Reasonable or completely absurd? It’s quite difficult to tell without some context. So let me try to provide some of that.
You probably know that New York State seeks to establish its pre-eminence in the energy transition game with its Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act of 2019. The CLCPA sets a series of targets for reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. The first big target is a 40% reduction in GHG emissions by 2030. The easiest place to achieve those reductions — and maybe the only place to achieve most of them — is in the electricity generating sector. Since the electricity sector represents well less than 40% of primary energy consumption in New York, the achievement of the 40% GHG reduction essentially means the near complete elimination of fossil fuels from electricity generation by 2030.
How to get there? Basically the entire idea that these geniuses have come up with is to build lots and lots of wind turbines and solar panels. At the end of last year they put out an endless and impenetrable document known as the Scoping Plan, supposedly laying out the specifics. Here is an easier-to-digest summary dated January 3, 2023 from a publication called The City. A few key lines:
There are grand plans in the works . . . for large investments in renewable energy with wind power at the forefront. Under the Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act of 2019 (CLCPA), New York State has committed to developing nine gigawatts of offshore wind-produced electricity by 2035 — enough to power over six million homes, the most ambitious target in the country. That puts New York at the forefront of an emerging trend along the east coast. . . .
The plans are “grand.” They are “the most ambitious in the country.” They put New York “at the forefront.” And what are these “grand” plans? Nine GW of offshore wind turbines by 2035. Read a little further, and you will find that the plans also include some 3 GW of solar by the same date.
Enough to “power over six million homes”? If you know these numbers, you know that would only be true if the wind blew all the time at full strength, which it doesn’t, not even close. And then, there’s a lot more to powering an economy than powering the homes. What about the cars, industry, agriculture, airplanes, ocean and rail freight, and so forth? New York State’s current electricity generation capacity is 39.89 GW per EIA 2021 numbers, and almost all of that works almost all the time. The new 12 GW of wind and solar will work on average about 30% of the time, so will add on average 3.6 GW to the existing base of 39.89 GW. Our “grand plans” come to less than a 10% increase in effective capacity, and will only work intermittently. The 12 GW of wind and solar additions, even assuming they all get built (they won’t) won’t bring us anywhere near net zero electricity generation in the 2030s, let alone a net zero economy. But they do represent a good indication of the limits of the possible in building these things over the next decade or so.
With that context, let’s now go back to the Tesla Report. Here is their chart for the U.S. of the new generation facilities that will need to be built to fully electrify the economy with carbon-free generation:
That’s right — it’s 5,338 GW of renewables, of which 1,971 is wind and 3,052 is solar. Almost all of that 5,338 will have to be newly built. (Per this EIA chart for 2021, the current nameplate capacity of “nonhydro renewable” electrical generators in the U.S. is about 200 GW.)
New York State is about 6% of the U.S. by population, so I guess that under Tesla’s scheme we will have to be building around 6% of 5,338 GW of renewable capacity, or about 320 GW. Our “grand plans” to build 12 GW in the next decade are insufficient by a factor of about 27. But I guess if we can get going and then maintain the pace of building about 12 GW per decade for 270 years, we can get there by, say, about the year 2300.
So the correct term for the Tesla document is “completely absurd.” The same goes for New York’s energy transition plans.
But you knew the Tesla Report was absurd without reading it. If a company has a vision for a new product or system that is better and cheaper than what currently exists in the marketplace, the last thing it would ever do is put out a Report like this supposedly telling everyone else how to do it. Instead, it would invest its own money to develop the product or system, and keep all the profits for itself. Here, the plan is transparently to get the government to put up all the money and for Tesla to harvest the subsidies.
Not in a NY minute or millennium
The manufacture, transport and installation of cement/concrete footings for these facilities is a major contributor to CO2 emissions.
If the cement industry were a country, it would be the third largest emitter in the world – behind China and the US. It contributes more CO2 than aviation fuel (2.5%) and is not far behind the global agriculture business (12%).
“….Third largest emitter…”
Well, good for them
And let’s hear it for the plastics industries as well.
Cement and plastis are wonderful, civilisation enhancing products.
Totally unlike wind turbines, solar panels,
Heat pumps, ‘smart’ meters, EVs, powderes bugs and all the other useless, ridiculous nonsense.
Now, now. Heat pumps don’t belong in that list of other nonsense. Like any system, heat pumps aren’t for every situation but in the right places heat pumps shine.
Landfill?
dont bother talking sense here about heat pumps.
In the UK gas per KWH is 20% of the cost per KWH of electricity, so to make it work with a COP of 5 (very likely unachievable with air source pumps) you have to insulate the house and also increase the heating surface area due to the lower water temps. Then you hopefully stand still on the cost of heating. Your capital investment gains you nothing/ By the time you have done all the insulation work you may as well stay with the current gas boiler and radiators and save most of the capital outlay. Your gas usage goes down you you save having to rip out and replace all the radiators. Unless if like me you live in a house with solid walls with lime motor and slate laid direct on wood where drafts stop the house from rotting away. If you do go all the way and get a heat pump there is no plan to increase electricity supply so you better keep that gas boiler hidden in an outhouse or no heating in winter. I will stick with my oil boiler and coal boiler combo.
Why not!? You never do.
In Steve’s world, sense is whatever the government says it is.
no. In your world if the government says “X” then your religion requires you to believe “not X”
Like any system, heat pumps aren’t for every situation but in the right places heat pumps shine.
Heat pumps work well in regions with moderate temperatures, where the outdoor temperature typically stays above freezing (0°C or 32°F) for most of the year. Heat pumps are particularly efficient in areas with mild winters, such as the southern United States, where they can provide efficient heating and cooling for homes.
Heat pumps can also work well in cooler climates with colder winters, provided they are properly designed and installed. In these climates, heat pumps may need to be supplemented with electric resistance heating or have a backup heating system in place to ensure adequate heating capacity during extremely cold weather.
Overall, the suitability of heat pumps depends on several factors, including the climate, the size and insulation of the building, and the specific needs and preferences of the occupants. Consulting with a professional HVAC technician can help determine if a heat pump is a suitable option for a specific location and application.
I can assure you that the combination of passive systems and acclimatisation also works well in those conditions.
The counter-examples provided above don’t meet those criteria.
I live in Phoenix metro area I have a heat pump and I still need resistive heating. The old furnace was a resistive heating, when my old furnace was replaced I was told I would save money on my electric bill. Nearly ten years later I still waiting for those savings.
This from the guy who thinks that the global warming scam, isn’t a scam.
and you whine if i call you a denier
Anyone that decides to get a Heat Pump should spend serious time and effort learning about the Economic and Thermal balance point of your considered HP. I got one back in 2004 as the Utility offered a winter discount on the electric bill.
As I have commented on WUWT before, when it is below 45 degrees the house is COLD. As a result, the temperature had to be set t degrees F higher. On cold days but above the Thermal brake point when I had a nighttime schedule, it would be about two hours befor the house was comfortable. When it was cold enough that the HP was “locked out” the Gas furnace had the house warm before I got out of bed. On many nights the HP would run 12 minutes every 1/4 hour all night long.
After studying up on HP Thermal and Economic Balance point I discovered that the HP was set at the Thermal BP meaning that it was set at the point a few degrees above the point that it would run forever to heat the house. Determining and then setting the HP for the Economic BP reduced the all night runs and saved me money on my total heating bill. [Gas/oil prices vary, the Economic BP may be below the Thermal BP, in which case leave it a few degrees above the Thermal.] Stay away from HPs with an electric resistance backup – unless you live in the southern states.
Wind turbines, solar panels, Heat pumps, ‘smart’ meters, EVs, powderes bugs and all the others are fine if financed and developed by private enterprise and sold in a free and open market. Things go pear-shaped only when governments try to command them.
PS. How many billions have governments wasted on powderes bugs? I haven’t seen that figure, but I’ll bet it’s lots.
Wind turbines, solar panels, Heat pumps, ‘smart’ meters, EVs, powderes bugs and all the others are fine if financed and developed by private enterprise and sold in a free and open market. Things go pear-shaped only when governments try to command them.
fighter aircraft, tanks, landmines, ‘atomic bombs, all the others are fine if financed and developed by private enterprise and sold in a free and open market. Things go pear-shaped only when governments try to command
them.
look powdered bugs and EVs are financed and developed by private enterprise. so are heat pumps
however there are some things the market cannot do, and shouldnt do.
god forbid you had private woke companies deciding what we could tweet
oh wait we already had that market failure.
Let’s pretend public goods and natural monopolies don’t exist.
People who say there are things that markets can’t do don’t understand markets. Markets can do anything. That does not mean they should. Conflating the two different terms is ridiculous for an English major.
nope a market cant do anything, cant square the circle,
cant price externalities, cant protect itself from governments
the two different terms
conflating what terms? can and should? i didnt conflate them
there are some things the market cannot do, and shouldnt do.
thats what i said
Privately financed, that is a laugh!
I replaced two heat pumps this past Fall when an out of production condenser failed.
Why the two? Because we got a discount for replacing the second heat pump, then 18 years old and well past it’s expected life if the company got to replace both systems at the same time.
In thirty years, we replaced one heat pump twice and the other heat pump three times. When a heat pump fails before it’s expected, they give you credit, not much on the newer more expensive heat pumps.
We were charged $30,000 dollars payable over 14 months. Miss a payment and the entire arrangement goes to 18% interest charges for the entire term.
Privately financed? You mean it’s a closed market where all of the installers mysteriously have prices within fractions of a percentage point. Slight differences between companies are made up with surcharges.
https://allthingsbugs.com/our-story/
Looky here, the socialist is actually trying to argue that as long as the government funds defense, everything else he and his fellow subsidy hounds can fave whatever they want paid for by government as well.
Then again, it’s not like Steven has ever demonstrated an ability to think straight, or for himself.
no thats not the argument. the argument is
A: these things are not FUNDED by the government.
B: government funding works just fine: see defense
so the OPs argument makes no sense. the source of funding does not determine the quality of the project.
the market is not without flaws, and the government does get somethings right.
try not to strawman my arguments. if you think you understand the argument you are most likely wrong
Once more
Let’s pretend public goods and natural monopolies don’t exist.
look mark i will make it easy for you here is the argument i disagree with
Wind turbines, solar panels, Heat pumps, ‘smart’ meters, EVs, powderes bugs and all the others are fine if financed and developed by private enterprise and sold in a free and open market. Things go pear-shaped only when governments try to command them.
A these things are fine is financed by private funds
B. when the government funds things it goes pearshaped.
my argument
the source of funding doesnt determined the quality of the product
A: powdered bugs, EVs Heat pumps are all Privately funded
But their purchase is in some cases subsidized or encouraged
B: government funds things that work. things dont always go pear shaped
C The market isnt perfect.
now i know you guys fancy yourselves as great logic choppers
here is step 1. quote my words
step 2: restate in your own words!!!
step 3: check that you understood! that means ask me
“is this your argument?
step 4 repeat 2-3 until we agree that you understood the argument
step 5. make your counter argument
miss me with your labels of socialist
yahoo – as reported in WUWT more CO2 is good for the earth& mankind – already plant yields are soaring and the amount of farmable land has increased 14% (the land mass size of the US) – my question is what happens to all these renewables once the subsidies stop
The manufacture, transport and installation of cement/concrete footings for these facilities is a major contributor to CO2 emissions.
NOPE NOPE NOPE
data?
The average CO2e impact of cement in foundations for land-based and offshore wind turbine foundations is about 1 gram (g) per kilowatt-hour (kWh) of electricity generation. This accounts for about 10% of emissions for land-based and offshore wind energy—approximately 11 g/kWh and 12 g/kWh, respectively.
So Nope, Nope, Nope is justified by a single citation free response to the third of the “nopes”. I see a big future for you in climate science.
I think you are a little misled Steven. Making a tonne of cement releases a lot more CO2 than the fossil fuel usage alone. The chemical reaction releases at least another tonne of CO2, but I do agree that this is relitavely small compered to the steel making, transport, other materials and plastic and glass for the blades. The overall gain from a wind turbine is a few times the cost in CO2 terms, but that is not the real snag. It is the unreliability of wind that is the killer, along with the absolute necessity to have complete backup as well. You may say grid scale batteries, but this swings the overall CO2 reduction to be entirely negative, partly because of the vast storage required, in the UK something like a 1000 billion tonnes of batteries to store 1/2 pentawatt hours, and even this would only provide a 95% chance of being enough. It would also need to be replaced every 10-20 years, and would cost more per year than the GDP. The average electricity consumption in the UK is about 40GW, which at 500 Whr/kg (the best figure) needs about 80,000 tonnes of batteries to supply, per hour!
Referring to the Energy Informationj Administrration (EIA) 2023 Annual Energy Outlook https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/tables_ref.php
In light of Biden’s crackdown on fossil fuels I was surprisedto see virtually no significant change in fossil fueil demand in base case through 2050 (below). Based on Biden’s bellicose signalling I expected to see significant change.
Here is a plot of the EIA base case figures on US Demand by energy type through 2050 … EIA base case. They also show cases covering a very wide range of assumptions on inc./dec. of fossil fuels vs. renewables. I assume base case to mean most likely based on current knowledge.
EIA base case looks reasonable to me…. and given the “natural limitations” facing the electric car industry in conversion from gasoline and diesel to electric in spite of massive subsidies from the Biden Administration) e.g., vehicle mileage limitations, need for massive fueling station network over a large country already set up for gasoline / diesel fuel), etc. etc.
Question: I am surprised that Biden Administration has not forced EIA to e.g., have the drastic low fossil fuel case the “base case.” In other words, to lie. Such dishonesty from Biden Administration would not surprise me..
In summary it appears to me the Biden story on reducing fossil fuel consumption as energy source and massive shift to electric vehicles is a lot of smoke and mirrors.
n light of Biden’s crackdown on fossil fuels I was surprisedto see virtually no significant change in fossil fueil demand in base case through 2050 (below).
thats because there is no crackdown!
Idiot.
Don’t forget arrogant, condescending, tends toward circular argumentation with a narcissistic refusal to admit any error.
That’s because Biden’s “crackdown” like the rest of what Biden has attempted to do, was totally botched.
The list of things that Biden has done to restrict fossil fuel use is well documented, even if you are being paid to not see it.
Hitler never succeeded in capturing St. Petersburg, there for conservatives a wrong when they claim that Hitler made an all out attempt to capture St. Petersburg.
Despite steve’s belief to the contrary, failure to achieve your objective is not evidence that no attempt was made.
We need to keep all fossil fuel generators that are fit in operation. They should be refurbished and updated in addition to being maintained. Those fossil fuel generators that are past their lifetime should be replaced with new fossil fuel generators or nuclear generators. We need to do the same with all nuclear reactors. New nuclear plants will be built in the style we know works, we can move on to newer models when they have been proven to be better.
We need to move full steam ahead recovering and refining our own fossil fuel.
We need a plan in place to remove wind and solar from the grid as soon as possible. What we do with the wind and solar facilities is up to those who built them but they are not going to walk away from them and leave the rest of us saps to clean up their mess.
At some point we are going to have to think about how to deal with our aging hydro systems. What do we do with dams that are no longer sustainable or safe?
sustainable dams?
Isn’t it cute when Steve pretends to be ignorant?
But I guess if we can get going and then maintain the pace of building about 12 GW per decade for 270 years, we can get there by, say, about the year 2300.
So the correct term for the Tesla document is “completely absurd.”
completely absurd? no its your fallacy of incredulity.
better get used to solar and wind and relearning everything you think you know
If the Biden Administration would spend the time and the money needed to produce a detailed engineering-level feasibility analysis for achieving Net Zero in the US electric power sector by 2035 — an analysis which is being supported by all the assumptions and all the calculations used in producing its study conclusions — then those of us who seriously doubt it can be done would have less reason to be skeptical.
In the absence of such a detailed study, one which demonstrates how wind and solar can replace coal-fired and gas-fired generation on a megawatt-hour for megawatt-hour basis, the only inference we can draw is that achieving Net Zero by 2035 can only be accomplished through a program of strict government-enforced rationing of fossil-fueled electric power.
Written like somebody whose paycheck depends on the advancement of intermittent energy.
And I must say based on the organised and grammatical nature of your messages today contrasted with your history of ungrammatical drive by postings, written like somebody who has adopted chatGPT or similar to write prose for him.
Anybody who can be replaced by a computer should be.
Steven,
have you factored the decline in output as existing wind generators age and that they are near end of life in a couple of decades?
From you?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
The IEA has just released “Energy Technologies Perspectives 2023” here are some excerpts
“The world still relies on fossil fuels (FFs) for its energy supply. The growth in clean energy supply since 2000 has been dwarfed by that of oil,gas and coal, especially in emerging and developing economies”
“Oil is the single largest source of of primary energy (29%) followed by coal (26%), Natural gas (23%), solar and wind (2%), nuclear (5%), hydro (2%)”
“While electrification has accelerated over the last two decades, fossil fuels still dominate energy end use – 35% of total energy use in buildings and 95% in transport”
In 2021 coal provided 75% of energy used in global steel production and over 50% in cement production while about 70% of chemical production was based on oil or natural gas.
“The extraction and processing of ‘critical minerals’ typically relies on fossil fuels”
Critical minerals are, of course, essential in the ‘push’ for net zero
Better get used to fossil fuels being around for a long time since the revolution in wind and solar that you are after is totally dependent on them
It’ll all come to an end as the true costs of the solar and wind nonsense become clearer and clearer https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2023-3-18-a-proposal-for-exposing-the-true-costs-of-getting-electricity-from-wind-and-sun
Notice how Steve, for the umpteenth time, doesn’t even bother to try and defend the position he’s paid to take.
Instead he just insults anyone who disagrees with him and pretends that he actually knows what he is talking about.
According to the International Energy Agency (IEA) 2019 World Energy Balances, the global primary energy supply is 165 PWh/ year, and total fossil fuel supply is 134PWh/year1ab. 37% (61PWh) is consumed before making it to the end consumer. This includes the fossil fuel industries’ self-consumption during extraction/refining, and transformation losses during electricity generation. Another 27% (44PWh) is lost by inefficient end-uses such as internal combustion engine vehicles and natural gas furnaces. In total, only 36% (59PWh) of the primary energy supply produces useful work or heat for the economy. Analysis from Lawrence Livermore National Lab shows similar levels of inefficiency for the global and US energy supply
Mosh, ICE engines are more efficient than generating electricity, transmitting it through the grid, charging a battery (NB requires AC-DC conversion), losing some energy to self-discharge or maintenance charge, and then finally converting to propulsion. Get back to us when no loss conversion and transmission is closer to reality, or when widespread fission or fusion plants have made humungous batteries and the corresponding massive motorcars fiscally viable.
Turbocharged CI engines are more efficient again, and moreso when running at fixed speed.
Yep, the best combined cycle plants hit about 63% efficiency, so you’re already behind at the plant busbars.
Again Mosher, your message here is way too well written to have come directly from you.
Mosher has been replaced by a chatbot with an improved result. AI is already replacing humans in non-creative tasks, such as writing Mosher’s comments.
Everyone drives to Lawrence Livermore National Lab, there is no other way to get there.You can see all the parking lots on Google maps. They even have their own carwash. So you forgot to include their inefficiencies of their analysis in your rant.
Talk about using only the statistics that can be distorted to support your case.
Previously steve was whining that the author of this article obviously did not understand the statistics he was quoting. Then he proceeds to demonstrate that when it comes to ignorance and confusion, steve is a world champion.
The huge flaw in plans to build more wind turbines and solar panels is that when the wind does not blow, ALL wind turbines in the affected area do not produce electricity. Building more of them does not produce a single kilowatt of power.
Same with solar panels. At night, or when a blizzard blankets solar panels with snow, ALL of them fail.
There are only two ways to avoid failure. One is massive batteries which can store enough electricity to run NYC or wherever for a week or so when the power is not available from renewables. Technology for battery capacity on a grid scale does not exist, and what is available is hugely expensive.
The other is stand by fossil fuel capacity when renewables fail. We need enough standby fossil fuel capacity to run everything in a stricken area. This means that we must have two duplicate systems in place, one renewable, and a second fossil fuel/ nuclear, to provide 100% reliability. The cost of this duplication is more than twice fossil fuel/ nuclear by itself because of the inefficiency of standby ff, and the cost of integrating highly variable output from renewables into a tight banded output.