From the “you can’t make this stuff up” department comes this inane story. Josh has his take on it.
Scottish Power admitted 71 of its windmills were hooked up to the fossil fuel supply after a fault developed with their power supply.
Full story here
Josh, as usual, is on the case.
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Brilliant. Just Brilliant!
This would be for powering their blade engines not to propel the turbines?
What, renewables cannot supply their own power?
Wind turbines require Reliable Grid Sourced electricity to maintain operation.
http://www.aweo.org/windconsumption.html
In other words their own Unreliable Generation is insufficient to allow them to function
I was told that when the blades are oversized, the wind mills cannot stay still when there is no wind, otherwise the blades would be bent under their own weight. So a small motor makes slowly rotating to avoid this until the wind blows again.
Normally the power to turn the blades comes from the mains supply, but due to a fault, this couldn’t happen. That’s why they had to install these diesel generators. Not to make power, just to stop them from freezing in the winter conditions and breaking their bearings.
There are other issues with large wind turbines remaining stationary. From what I understand, if they stop spinning, the bearings can develop points where they are work hardened by the rollers rocking back and forward. This can cause increased brittleness in the bearing surface and premature failure of the bearings. The bearings, particularly the main bearings, are generally undersized for the loads they experience, properly sizing them would increase friction in the system and reduce the efficiency of the turbine. So, bearing failure is one of the most common failure modes for turbines. This isn’t just due to work hardening when stationary, but also due to differential and variable loading of the blades at different altitudes.
From the article, it seems that the main purpose of the diesel generators was to heat the blades (and possibly other parts of the turbine, I don’t imagine that the gearbox lubrication would work efficiently at very low temperatures). But, the external power would be used for several things, from controlling the blade pitch and turbine yaw to pumping lubrication around the various mechanical parts and energizing generator stators.
From what I understand, if they stop spinning, the bearings can develop points where they are work hardened by the rollers rocking back and forward.
I keep seeing comments about this, but I clearly recall many (often most) of them sitting stationary along I-10 (or was it 60?) between San Bernardino and Palm Springs. Of course, that was a long time ago so perhaps this is something that’s been learned since then?
Tony_G, I was thinking the same thing about the major installments here in Iowa. There is a major wind farm north of Blairsburg, IA that we used to drive thru often. If you use street view in google maps, drop the little yellow dude on county road C70 just West of Hwy 69 and look at the turbines in all directions. Not uncommon to drive thru this “farm” with only a handful of them spinning slowly. There were a few times as well where nearly all of them were spinning with the optimal conditions.
A consideration is the size/weight of the rotor. Smaller/lighter rotors may be OK w/not rotating.
I used to drive through there several times a week, and though the wind almost ALWAYS blows there, sometimes very hard, most,if not ALL of the windmills ere sitting idle! I seldom EVER saw them turning at anything like a normal speed! I wondered if they were ever going to be activated! It isn’t uncommon for the winds to blow at 70+ MPH through that pass, yet the windmills were still?
When the wind is blowing too hard, wind turbines must shut down or they self-destruct.
When they are running, wind turbines are as picky about wind speed as Goldilocks was about the porridge temperature. In the operating range of the turbine, power is roughly proportional to the third power of wind speed. At 1/2 the maximum speed, you only get 1/8 the power. To get 50% of the rated power, you need wind at least 79% of the maximum speed. At slightly over the maximum speed, the turbine shuts down and the power goes to zero, if not slightly negative because the system uses a little power…
If they don’t turn, all the load is resting on a single bearing which can cause ”Brinelling” or damage to the surface of the bearing. Flattening or pitting will cause irregularities in the rotation and the subsequent friction can lead to… fires.
Whenever you see a wind turbine moving slowly it’s probably running power from the grid to keep itself lubricated rather than generating any electricity for the grid.
You will notice that this is surprisingly often.
similar as I understood but for mega mega size windmills – do they crunch their own bearings if they sit still for more than a few minutes?
(There’s a word for it which I forget right now = Crannelation??)
Is what they’re doing the equivalent of ‘Donkey Engine’ as sometimes used – now that would be a picture: Donkey Powered Windmill
How low have we sunk………………..
(The humour’s pretty grim too. sorry)
Consider just the blades weigh upwards of 92 tons (184,000 lbs)
It’s called “Brinelling” (as in Brinell Hardness) and results in deformation of bearings and races when the load is static and very large. Keeping the blades rotating at all times prevents it but requires electric motors and power. That is why you’ll often see turbines rotating when there is little or no wind. If you see a stopped large turbine it’s probably headed for a major repair.
Proposed by Swedish engineer Johan August Brinell in 1900,
it was the first widely used and standardised hardness test
in engineering and metallurgy. [Wiki]
Colloquially called brinelling when the bearing race work hardens under static ball or roller bearing contact points. Hardened lines or points develop that causes the bearing to fail. It normally takes vibration as can be caused during shipping to produce. Windmills I’ve seen on still days don’t move so assume they don’t maintain a creep speed.
I was thinking of a donkey engine like used on the old Caterpillar dozer to start the main engine. There are a lot of old Cats still operating. I wonder how long these mills will run. Old style APU:
https://youtu.be/vOl5YpFVGYU
But its OK as humor.
Because of height wind mills are required by FAA to have a red blinking light. That light is powered by something other than the mill itself.
Add that to the list of things kept from the general public and off the lobbyist talking point list.
One suspects this electrical power used by windmills is not tracked or aggregated properly.
Odd that they did not install large battery packs instead of diesel generators. That alone speaks very badly for wind turbines.
I suspect that “large battery packs” are MUCH more expensive than a diesel generator and the fuel. Not to mention the diesels are MUCH more reliable.
Thank You, Rudolph!
Yes, lack of lubrication is a significant problem for any bearing, and is particularly a problem when there is an oscillating load and insufficient lubrication to prevent hydrodynamic operation. Bearings do not operate with metal to metal contact, there should always be a film of oil between surfaces. Once that is gone bearings will suffer galling, metal fatigue and short life. As these are large bearings carrying a large load I would expect there is continuous pumped lubrication, another reason to need auxiliary power from somewhere.
David CEng
When the wind doesn’t blow, the blades must still be slowly rotated. They are so heavy that if left standing still they would warp the main axial bearing. Axial bearing failure is the main turbine failure mode. And it is inherent in the uneven loading since wind speed increases with altitude, inducing rotor spindle wobble.
Indeed it is probably the factor that ultimately limits the size of turbines that can be made without breaking down too often. The problems are even more severe for tidal turbines:
Tidal turbine blades are subjected to significant thrust and torsional loadings due to the high density of the seawater in which they operate. These thrust loadings lead to high bending moments at the blade root, which can prove to be a serious design constraint for these devices and can have implications with respect to cost-effectiveness and scalability.
Rud
If what you say is true then what happens when the wind is gusting too fast and the blades are not allowed to spin? Perhaps you can explain.
The blades are feathered (unpowered). The shaft is still rotated slowly.
Dozens of giant turbines at Scots windfarms powered by diesel generators
“Scottish Power admitted 71 of its windmills were hooked up to the fossil fuel supply after a fault developed with their power supply.
Dozens of giant turbines on Scotland’s windfarms have been powered by diesel generators, the Sunday Mail can reveal. Scottish Power admitted 71 of its windmills were hooked up to the fossil fuel supply after a fault developed on the grid.
The firm said it was forced to act in order to keep the turbines warm during very cold weather in December. But a whistleblower has told the Sunday Mail the incident is among a number of environmental and health and safety failings.”
.
Thanks Krishna, I chair a meeting every month, and I like to open the meetings with a funny story before we get down to business. Your contribution here was perfect in its conciseness and information. WELL DONE!
I just wanted to donate a little, but I am very sorry Josh, but the donation page doesn’t work. The PayPal Page shows this: Die Seite dieser Organisation funktioniert nicht.” Please make it work again, and let me know. Best
Michael
Should be fixed now, please try again.
https://cartoonsbyjosh.co.uk/donate
Are we sure the Brits aren’t trying to use the diesel generators to power wind turbines, in order to create wind???
If they’re after creating wind all they need to do is open the doors of Parliament and let the Hot Air out
LOL!
Why not? Didn’t the Spanish use diesel generators to power flood lights for their solar arrays when it was too dark?
LOL!
I think you will find that all offshore wind turbines has an emergency diesel power supply.
If an underwater cable is severed or develops a fault, you can’t allow a large turbine to be out of control, unable to feather its blades, put its brakes on or turn to face the wind. Any of your possibilities will destroy the turbine in a gale or storm.
Whether you have a small generator in each turbine base or one per five turbines matters not.
Gotta love generation sources that are dependent on ideal weather conditions…NOT
Many of them seem to have a ~1MWh battery these days.
This shows the fluids and gases in one turbine of the UK’s Hornsea 3:
When the wind blows… within operational range.
Scotland is a truly virtuous place
I believe that one of the early experts on advanced wind power was this Scotsman:
The generation of electricity by wind power. By E. W. Golding. London (Spon’s Electrical-Engineering series), 1956. Pp. xiv, 318, 101 Figs.; 28 Plates; 38 Tables. 50s
FREEDOM!
If there’s a wind turbine anywhere in the world that meters the electricity from the grid that they all require on a continuous basis it’s a well kept secret. The Green’s report it’s so small it’s not worth the bother. Critics claim about 10%. My understanding is that a 35% capacity factor turbine should be de-rated 35% x 0.10 = 3.5 = 31.5% net.
Search on DuckDuckGo. You will find better Info. Keep in mind the consumption percentage is of Name Plate power not generated power. As this article shows there is a common belief that Consumption is subtracted before the meter which is WRONG.
http://www.aweo.org/windconsumption.html
Wind turbines are metered on both Consumption AND Generation. Consumption is an expense and is Tax Deductible. Also, the majority of Wind Turbines and many other “Power generating facilities” are NOT within the Service area of the Utility receiving the “Generated” power and the Servicing company wants paid for their consumed Power.
50+ years in the Generation department of electric utilities and responsible for installing these meters at several power plants. You will note that BOTH EIA and IEA does not tell you about the amount of power “Power generating facilities” use, ONLY, the amount of power GENERATED, which then gets used after it is metered. Helps keep the Envirowhacos happy thinking of how much power these Scam Turbines generate and perpetuate the Green Energy Agenda Scam.
Gross vs. Net.
Thanks for that, this is the first time I have heard that information- VERY relevant!
the link references the decades old Morris, Minnesota study conducted by a student. I found that many years ago. The rest of the link simply restates all the demand provided by turbines. You seem well positioned to shine a light on this neglected issue. Please help!
Excellent, so considering your experience how much is consumed by a 5mW turbine. 10% = 0.5 mW (24*7*365)? (Doubtful), or as the Green’s would have us believe <1%? 0.05%? How is it possible that this issue is not more broadly reported?
A five milliwatt turbine???
Might as well be, given how useless intermittently and inconsistently and unpredictability they produce electricity, and given all their parasitic loads when the wind speeds are not cooperating or it’s cold and lubricants need heating, etc.!
5 mega-watt
That would be “MW”. Capital M = mega = million
Small m = milli = one-thousandth
I checked out Duck Duck Go and found one other mention of wind turbine consumption in a 2010 Oil Price article that didn’t attempt to quantify anything. I restate my position: “If there’s a wind turbine anywhere in the world that meters the electricity from the grid that they all require on a continuous basis it’s a well kept secret”. Intentionally suppressed by the very agencies that are supposed to act in the public interest. Shameful.
Problem is that not a single commercial Wind turbine can start without a source of electricity. First problem is that the Nacelle needs to be positioned into the wind. Then the Blades need to be positioned to the proper pitch to move because of the flow of wind past them. Both of those actions need oil pressure just like your ICE engine in your car. Thus, the oil pump needs to be running. The weather instrumentation needs to know which way the wind is blowing and how fast, The Computers need to send that info to the Pitch and Nacelle position equipment and several dozen other things that need electricity that I do not have time to explain to you. Just like your car will not start with a dead battery same for a wind turbine as it has NO BATTERY. It uses Metered Service Power. Reread my post. Then find some good information on the internet – DuckDuckGo. Avoid reading anything written by the proponents of the Wind turbine. They are all in the same class as the FTX Crypto Scam, they are in the business to MAKE MONEY NOT ELECTRICITY. They make money even when their equipment is not making electricity. That is why Wind energy costs more than Coal, NG or Nuclear energy.
Not only this; yesterday in the paper it said that in central London there was enough light pollution to generate electricity in solar panels.
As an astronomy enthusiast, I find that very interesting… and frustrating.
Very telling that they chose diesel generation instead of battery storage.
Most manufacturers specify a cut-in wind speed of 3m/s, or 6.7mph/11kph. The optimum doesn’t occur until 12 t0 14m/s or 30mph/47kph.
So although at 3m/s is needed for a measurable output, less than 2m/s will means not enough energy to turn the blades, at which point external power is required.
Scotland has 1500+ windmills. One crucial bit of information that I can’t find is how much energy is used to keep windmills going when wind doesn’t turn the blades
I suspect the blades may turn a bit at below cut in speed so long as there is no generation load. Turbines are not very efficient close to cut in speed anyway. See this typical efficiency curve for a 3MW turbine
https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/GqyyC/1/
At cut in the efficiency is about 17% of the theoretical maximum, or almost 25% of the practical maximum. So the energy to turn the blades at cut in is 60-100kW. However, they are rotated more slowly when just preventing brinelling, so allowing for a square air resistance term we are probably looking at say a quarter of that.
So with no wind and 1500 turbines and each windmill using 25kW then the total load will be around 40MW.
The icing on the cake of climate alarmist hypocrisy here is that Scotland has cut down nearly 14 million trees to make room for the wind turbine farms according to the report below…
14m trees have been cut down in Scotland to make way for wind farms | HeraldScotland
No, you sure can’t make this stuff up.
When socialists are “just trying to help the peasants”, it really sucks to be a peasant. And so on. No great surprise when this applies to the plants, too.
I still think methane is an even better example:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4078820/The-great-green-guzzler-Monster-digesters-meant-guzzle-waste-churn-eco-friendly-energy-fed-CROPS-produce-pitiful-levels-power-cost-216m-subsidies-HARM-environment.html
Which shows how even things that could be useful if done in a sane way are warped into utter disaster and then kept this way by several layers of perverse incentives.
Well that story is a little hyped Bull Shit. So the turbines need control systems power, and de-icing systems power. And the equipment’s deicing and control systems needs power even if the generating function is offline.
Surprise, Surprise, Surprise … my 1962 VW Beetle needed a DC battery to start the engine, and this battery could also run the headlights, and gulp, that battery was needed because sometimes the little mill wasn’t running.
Just Stop Oil: Big oil! Keep it in the ground!
Big Oil: But if we did, your windmills wouldn’t work.
Just Stop Oil: Ermm…OK.. Keep most of it in the ground, except for the bit for our windmills!
Big Oil: But, how would you use your mobile phones if we did?
Just Stop Oil: Ermm…OK.. Keep most of it in the ground, except for the bit for our windmills and the mobile phones!
Big Oil: Oy vey!
If the oil industry was effectively shut down with the exception of the amounts required by certain “green” industries.. the price of the petrochemical products that they would require would be orders of magnitude higher, as they currently benefit from the massive economies of scale present in the oil industry. All their lubricants and hydraulic oil and the plastics and composites that they require for construction would be much more expensive, likely multiple orders of magnitude.
Their “free” energy just becomes even more expensive.
In contrast to your Beetle, I had, btw, a 1965, windmills will start with wind instead with a starter powerd by a DC battery. 😀
Never came across a hand cranked starter?
Not in a Beetle, but in motorbikes, lawn-mower, chain saws, small generators…
But you are not the one starting a windmill with hand cranked starter 😀
Here:
Never seen a Beetle like that here in Germany (hand cranked starter), I know that only from some old Citroens from France 😀
I remember them, and my dad warning about breaking thumbs when you didn’t get it right and the engine kicked back.
Alec Issigonis making transverse engines popular eventually did for the starting handle
When my Beetles battery was empty and unable to start, I switched combustion “on”, choosed 4th gear and started push-start.
Some meters pushed, I jumped into the car, clutched and put the pedal near the metal. Always worked well 😀
Started several cars in my 20’s and 30’s by “popping the clutch”.
Guess no one posting here is old enough to recall cranking a really old model car, or tractor… and yes, you have to be really careful, or it’ll HURT!
Yes, but not on demand…
So …. those big eyesores that are going to deliver us from “Evil Fossil Fuels” need “Evil Fossil Fuels” to deliver us from “Evil Fossil Fuels”?
Ayup
They need oil and gas extraction, not only to lubricate the bearings that both allow the turbine to spin and the mount to turn into the changing wind direction but also to manufacture the 92 ton (lightweight) blades.
They also need Coal (coking coal) to manufacture the high strength steel used to create the masts that support the nacelle
And the oil necessary to create the asphalt paving as these behemoths need strong road bases to allow for safe initial transport to their sites as well as maintenance materials
According to the World Coal Association a typical wind turbine contains around 260 tonnes of steel made from 170 tonnes of coking coal. Wind turbines are, however, getting bigger and bigger so their steel requirement is probably increasing.
Both land and sea based turbines use concrete for foundations and floating platforms. Fly Ash from coal burning is an essential component of concrete.
I spoke with a site foreman when they were building turbines around Crystal Lake, IA, where my in-laws lived. He explained to me at the time that each footing required 33 full loads of concrete. I wish I could remember how many feet of rebar were used in each footing too. It was amazing!
The Blue Creek Wind Farm in Ohio says their footings required 60 truckloads of concrete each for the 328ft tall turbines.
YES. And not only from the generators. Every step of raw material extraction, raw material siting and refining, manufacturing, election, maintenance, demolition, and transportation at every step requires fossil fuels.
These worse-than-useless things are 100% dependent on fossil fuels for their existence.
As do all cars, even Teslas.
My 50 Ford Coupe had a 12v DC battery…as did my
68 Camaro
72 Pinto
73 F100
79 Mustang
82 Olds Cutlass
86 Taurus
90 Geo Storm
94 Pontiac Grand Prix
98 Dodge Durango
2008 Charger
As well as ALL my work trucks.
Every one had a 12V DC battery and none of those spontaneously combusted
12V negative earth were only introduced in the 1950s before that it was 6V positive earth. In the UK 12V positive earth lasted until the 1970s for some companies.
Positive earth can create corrosion problems.
If you can get a car with a dud battery started it will keep going until you switch off. The same doesn’t apply if the alternator fails. The same is true for renewable energy and storage.
Your were, however, extremely fortunate that your Beetle did not need to be running continuously, being used or not, which is the whole point of this article.
Given that the wind turbines are already in place along with all electric transmission lines, it makes a lot of sense from an infrastructure cost viewpoint, to put any required backup generation at wind turbine sites. Backup batteries too, except standby generators are much less expensive.
Keep wasting more money and resources to maintain what is already a waste of money and resources?
“Transition” back to what worked. Sell for scrap the then unneeded transmission lines and what can be salvaged from the pinwheels and solar.
Use some of the money to restore the land where they stood.
Wouldn’t that just be an example of the sunk cost fallacy? The technology is not capable of delivering the required output, it was put in place on effectively false pretenses and backed by false (or at least highly misleading) promises, so the correct response would be to stop throwing good money after bad.
“except standby generators are much less expensive”
Prof Michael Kelly, FRS and Fellow of the Royal Academy of Engineering (UK) calculated that the £45m battery installed in Adelaide in 2018 would power the emergency wards (30% of total wards) of Addenbrookes Hospital in Cambridge for 24 hours on a single charge.
The current back up for the hospital is two diesel generators that run for as long as there is fuel and cost £0.25m.
https://www.thegwpf.org>content>uploads>2022>03>Kelly-Net-Zero_Progress-Report.pdf
Many down votes but the comment left out was….
And having the backup generators in place, you can take down the turbines and have reliable power.
Looks like a pretty important “left out’.
And this story won’t be reported in the MSM.
Right now, it is hard to top the Chinese spy balloon story in the MSM. The spy balloon will be at or near the top of the headlines for a while.
Replaced by an earthquake or two.
Reading the article in the Daily Record it is striking how naive the environmentalist Scots are, imagining that turbines can be built without oil in their gearboxes and bearings. You have to guess they have no idea about what it takes to manufacture them, especially now they have closed down their own industry by making it uncompetitive.
Scots prolly think turbines are lubricated by single malt…
Or lanolin.
Reminds me of the scam of using mains-powered searchlights to get power into solar panels paid for at much higher rates by ‘normal’ electricity users.
That was Spain.
Can’t be. I don’t remember Griff telling us about these issues.
Also this is happening in Europe.
https://www.zerohedge.com/weather/wind-power-makers-suffer-huge-losses-want-abandon-major-project
There was an earlier article here showing that some wind turbines off the NE coast of the UK were net consumers of electricity. This was due to the need to heat the nacelle at all times, and in winter when the wind velocity was low, this heating requirement, plus the need to turn them slowly when there is zero wind, exceeded the power generated.
This isn’t the case at all times, of course, so keep a little salt handy.
The turning requirement (which grows with turbine size and mass) is needed because large steel shafts bend permanently if they sit in one position with a large weight attached.
A $500m gas turbine generator installed in India by Bechtel Corp was ruined because they failed to rotate it every few days or weeks during a protracted law suit. The main shaft, big as it is, has to be moved so it doesn’t sag. It was ruined and never operated.
So, having made the investment in these huge turbines, they have to be kept turning slowly in still air if there is any chance for them to operate in future. That takes power, and that will come from somewhere, often locally generated by diesel-fueled engines.
As with all things progressive, green, renewable, environmental it’s the thought that counts. The reality is totally irrelevant, or at least the proponents of this nonsense act as if that is the case up until the moment they are asked to sacrifice a tiny shred of their privileged, elite existence as a symbol of participation in the charade they preach to the rest of us. Hypocrisy is not nearly a big enough word for this.
The reality is not «totally irrelevant». On the contrary…
― An Open Letter to Open-Minded Progressives, Chapter 8.
They were using the diesel to ‘keep them warm’ apparently.
I just had to go have a ‘little explore’
Hopefully you see a screenshot from a nearby Wundergound.
Things got ‘a bit cold’, hardly Mt Washington or even Texas, for about 10 days from Dec 5th thro 15th, especially nights of 13th and 14th so, maaaaaaaybe, they needed some de-icing
What is particularly mirth-worthy though is the wind-speed plot.
Looks like somebody had been using whisky for anaesthetic….
fail fail fail fail fail
(I got that from a sign on the motorway north of Carlisle, where the M6 becomes the M74 as it crosses the border.
There’s a huuuuge blue/white sign on side of the road and it says:
Failte gu Alba
Here’s the link.… Welcome to the Land of Fail