Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
There’s been a lot of talk lately about how the scarcity of “rare-earth” minerals like lithium and cobalt will short-circuit the “green revolution”. In that regard, I came across an interesting 2022 Standard & Poors Global (SP Global) study on the amount of plain old everyday copper needed for a Net-Zero 2050 scenario. The study is entitled “The Future of Copper: Will the looming supply gap short-circuit the energy transition?“, and the answer is … yep. It will.
In my post “Bright Green Impossibilities” I listed a number of physical, political, and economic reasons why we can’t get to “Net-Zero” CO2 emissions by 2050. This post is about one reason that I didn’t mention in that post.
The problem is that copper is the material most suitable in most conditions for conducting electricity … and in addition, it’s used in building construction, appliances, electrical equipment, brass hardware, and cell phones, as well as expanding applications in communications, data processing, and storage.
[UPDATE: As several commenters have mentioned, aluminum is replacing copper for the transmission of electricity at high voltages (generally over 480V.) However, copper is still used for to-the-home and in-home wiring, as well as all the other uses listed above. And the numbers in the linked study and in the graphic below are unchanged.]
So if we’re going to go to an all-electric world, we’re going to need a truly massive amount of copper.
How much? Well, according to “The Future of Copper” linked above, here’s the bad news:

Figure 1. Estimates of the amount of copper needed to achieve Net-Zero 2050.
No bueno.
And as they say on the TV, “But wait, there’s more!” The USGS estimates that there are 880 million tonnes of recoverable copper in the ground. And here’s how that compares to the cumulative copper needs shown in Figure 1.

Figure 2. Cumulative amount of copper required for Net-Zero 2050 per Figure 1, and known recoverable copper reserves using current technology.
So … by 2040 we’ll need about all the proven reserves of copper we’ve currently located in the ground, and we’re still nowhere near Net-Zero 2050. We’re likely to find more in the ground, which will allow for further recoverable reserves. But it will generally be very poor ore and expensive to mine. “Back in the day”, as they say, ores which were 4% or even 6% copper were not uncommon. But newly discovered ores are on the order of 0.1% copper. Of course, as it becomes more scarce it will become more expensive, allowing poorer ores to be economically viable … but that leads to another problem.
The current London Metal Exchange price for copper is about ten thousand dollars per tonne. So the copper necessary for Net-Zero will cost a minimum of fourteen trillion dollars at current prices. However, as noted immediately above, as copper becomes more scarce the prices will inevitably rise. So the likely total cost will be at least fifty percent higher or even more, call it a minimum of twenty trillion dollars …
And that’s just for the smelted copper. It doesn’t include turning the copper into electrical wiring with insulation, transporting the wire and other copper products to where they’re going to be used, installing the new transmission lines, substations, switching gear, generators, and all the other costs to get the global electrical grid up to what would be required for an all-electrical world. Top consulting firm McKinsey says:
Our analysis of the industry-standard scenario for net zero by 2050 suggests that about $275 trillion in cumulative spending on physical assets, or approximately $9.2 trillion per year, would be needed between 2021 and 2050.
That means we’d have to spend $25 billion each and every day, including weekends, until 2050. Starting tomorrow. Riiight … full McKinsey article here.
And expanding any kind of mining faces a host of political, environmental, and regulatory problems. It can easily take ten years and billions of dollars before the first shovel goes into the ground. Opposition from “greens” has stopped almost all new mining in the US … while at the same time, those geniuses clamor for an end to fossil fuels.
A final difficulty factor. Much of the copper ore, and the majority of the refining and smelting facilities, are in … yep … China. From the linked study:
The challenge will be compounded by increasingly complex global geopolitical, trade, and country-level risk environments. There are several dynamics that will have a particular bearing on copper access. China holds a preeminent position in copper smelting (47%), refining (42%), and usage (54%), in addition to its sizable position in production, making it the epicenter of world copper. Continued trade tensions and other forms of competition between the United States and China could affect the copper market going forward. Supply chain resilience has emerged as a strategic imperative, particularly after the COVID-19 pandemic and the war in Ukraine. The study finds that by 2035 the United States will be importing between 57% and 67%—that is up to two-thirds—of its copper needs. An intensifying competition for critical metals is very likely to have geopolitical implications.
And if you think the Chines won’t play those “geopolitical implications” to their advantage, you don’t understand our Eastern friends.
So can we please stop this Net-Zero nonsense? It’s an impossible goal that will not solve an imaginary problem, and it will bankrupt us all, cause widespread energy poverty, and shaft the poor in the process.
Best to everyone on a lovely winter day,
w.
As Is My Wont: I can defend my words. I can’t defend others’ interpretations of my words. So when you comment, please quote the exact words you are discussing.
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There were proposed mines in Minnesota and Alaska. I do believe the greens oppose mining, period.
Biden canceled the lease for the Twin Metals mine in North Eastern Minnesota in January of 22 after the company spent millions on environmental impact statements and getting the green light from the Trump Administration. It was to be a copper nickel mine with trace platinum and cobalt recoverable. The people who live on the range wanted it, greens who do not live there did not.
And then there is that miniscule insignificant issue of REPLACING the FF transportation fleet with Electric Engined Batty-ry powered autos and the 20 times current global copper production needed to replace the current UK vehicles or the nearly 50 times global production increase needed to replace the U.S. fleet or the additional VAST copper mining increase necessary to replace the 2.2B global transportation fleet
think canada, chile, mexico. peru
Because it’s perfectly OK for economically strategic metals to be under the control of foreign powers, none of whom will ever consider using them to leverage better trade terms or whatever.
All woke as well, good luck getting huge numbers of mines approved.
HAHAHAHA Canada
Have you met our Prime Moron Trudeau.
What a great comment
Thanks Willis.
Clearly, or perhaps not so clearly, the bigger problem in all of this is IGNORANCE. A well informed society would already know by now that NET ZERO and the other pie-in-the-sky dreams, are not needed, and are, in any case, unachievable.
Those who visit WUWT are able to tamp down their ignorance. Any chance the articles here will make it to the High Schools and U’s.?
Ignorance is not the problem at all.
Nor is incompetence
You and Willis have to learn to think like a leftist.
Start as a conservative, and delete reason and accountability
If you start by thinking about the leftist goal, every leftist decision is easily explained. Not just some decisions — every decision
Leftists hate capitalism
Capitalism has disappeared
Socialism has taken its place
The US is now a socialist nation. In 2022, 34.5% of GDP was government spending at all levels. That’s enough to meet my personal definition of socialism (over 33%).
There was a fundamental transformation from capitalism to socialism in 2020, 2021 and 2022 though massive government spending and unprecedented federal deficits in peacetime.
But the fundamental transformation continues — socialism was not the ultimate goal.
The next stop is fascism, and we are partially there with government/private censorship, persecution and prosecution of Trump and his supporters, Covid lockdowns, experimental vaccine mandates, and political prisoners in Washington DC since January 6, 2021.
Unfortunately, fascism is just the next stop of leftism — the final leftist destination is Marxism, which includes indoctrination in schools, the Marxist Critical Racist Theory, and the destruction of traditional Chrisian values in schools.
How does a nation move from socialism to fascism and Marxism?
Socialism must fail. Every leftist plan and decision is designed to make the current economic system fail. Not some decisions — all decisions. All leftist decisions with the same goal is not incompetence, or ignorance — it is a deliberate plan.
Now let’s jump to Nut Zero. We all should know here there is no climate crisis. I claim the current climate is the best climate in 5,000 years, based on climate proxy reconstructions.
There is no logical reason to justify Nut Zero. We immediately know Nut Zero will not stop the rise of atmospheric CO2 levels because over 7 billion of the world’s 8 billion people live in nations that could not care less about Nut Zero, including China and India.
Intelligent people like Willie E, and the comment by Rud Istvan, can easily prove Nut Zero is an impossible dream. Let’s not jump to the conclusion that every leftist does not know that. Nut Zero continues, without a real plan, cost unknown, feasibility unknown, and no successful pilot projects. There are long winded vision statements and an arbitrary completion date. So why is Nut Zero continuing?
Nut Zero is intended to fail.
The failed project has two goals:
(1) Long-term: Disrupt socialism and make people want a new economic system, and
(2) Short term: In a few years the obviously failing Nut Zero project will be spun as a new climate change emergency. And we all know leftists have only ONE solution for any emergency (whether a real or fake emergency) and that’s more government power.
The failing Nut Zero project will be the next “Climate Emergency” … and the only way to save the planet will be the usual leftist “solution”: MORE GOVERNMENT POWER.
I have been saying the same thing for a few years. I hope others will start seeing that Nut Zero is all about political power, unrelated to climate science and grid engineering. The leftists are not incompetent or ignorant. They are power hungry and devious in getting what they want. And making great progress in the past few years.
Leftists want the world to be ruled by leftist “experts”. And they have to destroy the current economic system (socialism) to get the power they want.
Every leftist decision has that goal. From open borders with Mexico, to Critical Racist Theory, to Climate Change scaremongering, to Nut Zero. They all have the same goal — ruin what works in the US to promote the leftist fundamental transformation goal — last stop, Marxism
If you want to do further reading, look up the:
Cloward–Piven strategy – Wikipedia
Richard Greene
Bingham farms, Michigan
Election Circus
I would suggest that you have substituted socialism for welfare. The old definitions of Marxism I was taught long ago are as follows:
Fascism – govt control of business and capital
Socialism – govt ownership of business and capital
Communism – collective ownership of business and capital.
The welfare state is a precursor to it all. Make people dependent on government and then the move through the phases of Fascism, Socialism, and Communism is smoothed.
Authoritarianism is possible under both Marxism and capitalism. Again, the welfare state is a precursor to authoritarianism, make the people dependent on government and exerting government authority over them is facilitated.
The US is well down the road to being a welfare state. That has facilitated the move in the US to both fascism and authoritarianism. You can gauge the move to authoritarianism by looking at the growth of the Bureaucratic Hegemony we live under. Our elected representatives are no longer in charge of what happens in the US, the unelected BH is, at least federally.
I was the writer of a for-profit economics newsletter — ECONOMIC LOGIC — for 43 years. I based my economic system definitions on nations of the world — reality — rather than the traditional textbook definitions of economic systems.
For example
Capitalism
= government spending under 33% of GDP
Socialism
= Capitalism plus a significant welfare state
— Government spending above 33% of GDP (government spending is mainly transfer payments)
Fascism
= Socialism plus election fraud and significant government control of private business, such as
— Nut Zero to control electric utilities
— EPS 49mpg CAFE for 2026 model to control auto industry
— Promoting censorship by social media and mass media
— Covid shot mandates to control medical care industry
Marxism (Communism) = No elections, or massive election fraud, and significant ownership of industry
— Not necessarily government ownership of every industry
Fascism can lead to Marxism because government experts can ruin the industries they try to micro-manage. The ultimate goal is for government “experts” to run all businesses. Unfortunately, “run” often becomes “ruin”, under government control.
Actually, in reality Tim Gorman is correct about Fascism, and Socialism by your definition is more like Economic Fascism by political policies that are picking winners over losers to generate greater revenue through all forms of taxation (a graduated Individual Income Taxes, stamps, fees, duties, licenses, excise taxes, estate & gift taxes, capital gains taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, inheritance taxes, etc.) and uses regulations and standards to achieve it. It is a myth that Fascism is “Right-wing” and that a dictator is needed whenever a president or other named leaders are given the power to dictate policies, and when a multi-party system of Congresses or Parliments can create the same goals under different policies. Many well-known economists say that Franklin D. Roosevelt’s era of congressional policies brought Economic Fascism to America where precedence’s were created and have been built upon ever since.
Aluminum is a passable conductor of electricity and is used in at least some applications. I suspect it won’t come close to solving the problem but it might be an idea worthy of study since it appears we are royally screwed when it comes to copper.
Silver is the best conductor.
Sure. Now price out your new house wiring in Silver vs. Copper…
When we run out of copper, silver and aluminum, use gold.
I’m sure the “elite” will be happy to donate all their gold in order to save the planet.
I used around 20kg of copper wires for my whole house. Price of Copper is around 10,000$/t, that means I spent around 200$ for Copper.
Silver is around 23$/oz, that means it is around 759$/kg. So my 20kg of wires would cost 15,000$.
For somebody it would be possible for sure, but not me…
Aluminum is around 2-3 times cheaper than Copper, it is possible to make home installation with Aluminum without bigger problems. I saw Aluminum home installation around 50 years old which are working. Biggest problem with Aluminum is contacts oxidation.
But Aluminum can replace Copper home installations instantaneously.
Although I really can not imagine using Aluminum inside of electric motors and transformers…
A “rule of thumb” (that I’ve always been told) that you want to observe with Aluminum is that if you are using a 14AWG or 12AWG copper conductor you will need to scale up your aluminum conduct to be 12AWG or 10AWG. Also, you need to be careful at junctions where the copper and aluminum (if there is a blended system) connect.
I can imagine it. But then, I see farther than most people, because I stand on the shoulders of giants…
…or at least I’m aware of current research in this area.
It’s 2-3 times cheaper (half to 1/3 the cost?) now, but eco watermelons have driven up the cost of electricity which is a big factor in aluminum production.
So expect it to close the gap, unless aluminum producers can work with free electricity from wind turbines spinning when they aren’t needed by the rest of society.
If silver were used the wire gauge would be much smaller to carry the same current but the weight between copper and silver would be different too.
Where is the room temperature superconductors we read about in sci-fi novels? They would be so useful.
We have to follow Tesla and use wireless transmission 😀
RTS is unlikely to ever come about give current physics theories of how superconductivity arises. Temperature causes by definition an increase in molecular agitation, very bad for Cooper pairs of electrons. That is why RTS remains in the domain of sci-fi.
We still have “high” temperature superconductors that operate at 77 K, the temperature of liquid nitrogen. As copper cost increases, high Tc superconducting transmission lines nay become competitive. It isn’t sci-fi, either. https://www.nexans.us/en/newsroom/news/details/2021/09/2021-09-02-pr-nexans-installs-and-commissions-superconducting-cable-for-chicago-resilient-electric-grid-project.html
I think you’ll find room temperature superconductors in the same aisle as cold fusion.
Small correction. Gold is as good as silver, and doesn’t corrode/tarnish. The A/V cables in my high end system all have gold plated terminals for that reason. (I live directly on the ocean and corrosion is an issue when we have the ocean balcony doors open all winter.) The only problem is that gold is MUCH more expensive than silver, which is MUCH more expensive than copper.
Gold is actually the 3rd best. The 10 best metals (equal gauge), in order of best conduction are silver, copper, gold, aluminum, zinc, nickel, brass, bronze, platinum, steel, lead, stainless steel. Gold does not tarnish as you point out which makes it more reliable at junctions.
Because of the need for copper to produce brass, during WWII, power lines at Oak Ridge were made of silver. It was quickly reclaimed after the war ended.
Aluminum wire has to be bigger and bulkier to conduct the same amount of electricity as copper, so not a good substitute for a lot of applications.
It also has a significant issue with expansion and contraction that causes arcing and fires.
Mix that up with lithium batteries and Tesla might as well call their resulting ev the “Cherry Bomb.”
Aluminum is useful for long distance, high voltage transmission lines. It’s bulkier, but it’s also a lot lighter so you can make lighter weight support towers.
The other problem is that long distance high voltage lines are a fairly small percentage of all the transmission lines out there.
It was tried in home building in the 70’s and 80’s when copper was more scarce. It works, but not particularly well. It flows when under pressure, like attempts to make a good connection, leading to arcing etc.
Yes, aluminum is clearly inferior to copper in most applications.
Many years ago, British Telecom tried using aluminum for telephone wiring in order to save money. It did not work out well at all and cost them a great deal of money in repair and ultimately replacement costs.
High voltage transmission lines are aluminum with a steel core. Aluminum used to be used for low voltage wiring (480 and below) but caused too many house fires.
I have attached a photo of typical steel reinforced aluminium bare conductor used for overhead transmission.
More details on this link:
https://www.vwcable.com/power-transmission-lines-bare-aluminum-conductor-100mm2-aac-aaac-acsr-acar-acs-aacsr/
These cables are commonly used for overhead lines. They have been around for a long time; certainly the 1960s and maybe before that.
I worked in the distribution engineering department the summers of 1956 and 1957 while an engineering student. Nearly all the distribution cable (from substations to the home entrance box) was “ACSR,” Aluminum Cable Steel Reinforced. And when I replaced the original oven in my home built in 1981, the cable from the fuse box to the oven was aluminum.
Much of the wire for net-zero will be used in motors and transformers. Aluminum is not the best choice for these uses. Aluminum is more brittle and doesn’t have the turn radius capability of copper (i.e you can’t wind it as tight). Copper wire for the same current capacity is smaller than aluminum wire so makes motors and transformers smaller.
Aluminum is a good choice for transmission lines because of lower weight but those will not be the biggest use for net-zero.
People have shied away from using aluminum since the ’70s because of a tendency to oxidize to a high-resistance coating. The high-resistance film generates resistive heat and caused a lot of fires. There are applications where it is safe to use, but it has less flexibility than copper.
Where is all the electricity to smelt the aluminum going to come from?
I’ve often thought that someday we will be mining our landfills for valuable materials that at one time were considered to be trash. I wonder how many electrical devices have been tossed into the dump in the past 100 years, just loaded with copper and other valuable elements.
Yeah, I know. This is all pretty far fetched. But not as far fetched as this Nut Zero crap.
Copper recycling currently contributes on the order of 15% to total copper production. Not major, but not insignificant either.
w.
On the other hand, the Keweenaw Peninsula has a lot of abandoned native copper mines. In recent years, the dumps have been crushed for road metal (literally). While I understand that larger pieces of copper are screened out, I’m certain that a lot of copper is ending up in roads, rather than being extracted for smelting. It seems that the left-hand often doesn’t know what the right-hand is doing.
The copper deposit in the Keweenaw Peninsula of Upper Michigan extends westward under Lake Superior all the way to Isle Royale.
Copper is a highly recycled material. Since the start of the last century, 95% of the copper produced is still in use but there still won’t be enough for NutZero.
I suspect most of the stuff that is thrown out, that has copper in it, are household appliances with relatively small motors. High cost and minimum return.
The most part, the big stuff is already being recycled.
Ore is defined as a mineral that contains material of economic value. Hence a resource estimation is based on the value of the contained material and the cost to extract it. The only difference between rock and ore is the cost to treat it in combination with the extractable value.
Land fill is probably easier to treat than hard rock in terms of the energy involved. Most mineral rock has to be ground to very fine powered. The last project I was involved in was grinding rock to 80% passing 7 micron. Way finer than bug dust. A huge amount of energy goes into grinding the rock.
So land fill has some advantage to start with. Separating the various materials of value will be an issue.
Most recycle now occurs ahead of landfill. USA has a very good record for recycling materials in vehicles and appliances.
And in construction. Where I live, we have an enormous amount of old beach house tear down/mansion rebuild. They inevitably have a recycling truck come for the copper wiring and plumbing. They even hand sort the refuse, because it is that valuable now.
Fun story from back when I was global strategy offices head at Motorola. We had a fairly big and expensive Schaumburg campus program on how to recycle cell phones and such for the valuable (gold, silver, high purity silicon, copper) materials. We would shred them fine, dissolve the shreds in a nitric/sulfuric acid mix, then refine out the metals. Only problem was, the cost was about a thousand times the value of the recovered metals. I finally shut it down over considerable green research lab protests.
Dump the landfill material into a big hopper and heat with fusion reactor energy until it’s a plasma. Use magnetic separation to direct different atomic weight elements to collection bins. Easy-peasy … in a thousand years.
If you can figure out how to make that work you may want to whip up some weapons grade U235 as as a side hustle. I am sure there is a market.
Recently, in Washington State, the cables at EV charging stations have attracted attention of thieves. Catalytic converters have also been targeted. The converters can be replaced rather quickly but the complete cable for the chargers is more difficult and costly. Also, of course, the charge isn’t available for months and complicates the whole EV business.
Using similar techniques, there is a lot of recyclable Copper to be had.
I wondered how long that would take. The lighting poles in some of our public parks have stickers at the access ports that say, “Aluminum wires inside. No copper.”
Copper and brass have been popular with thieves in Arizona for at least the last 20 years. They’ve stolen statutes, yard art, plaques, electrical cable and anything they can sell. In the Philippines in the early 1960s, the local thieves would cut buried cable and pull it out of the ground with carabao.
Transmission lines are normally made of Aluminium wrapped on a steel core. As for Copper and how much there remains to be mined depends on who is providing that data. Regardless, it’s a fact that there will be a shortfall and price adjustment.
Aluminum requires bauxite mining which requires heavy diesel equipment and then huge amperage of electricity to refine. So it’s a non starter in the environmental world.
Maybe, but I was replying to the statement “copper is the only material suitable for transmitting electricity”
Correct. Transmission of electricity, 69kV and up, predominantly uses aluminum wiring, as the lower conductivity is easily offset by larger cables that are much cheaper and stronger than copper. Not sure what the extent of use is on the distribution side, but I’ll bet that if most people look inside their service panels in their homes, they’ll see that the ‘drop’ from the street is most likely aluminum, as well.
“Aluminum requires bauxite mining”
Yes, and we do plenty of that. There is no shortage of bauxite. As Tim Spence says, aluminium, rather than copper, is the staple material for overhead transmission.
Unfortunately, metallic Aluminium is solidified electricity.
Bauxite reserves probably aren’t sufficient, either, but that’ just because of the way that reserves are accounted for.
Geoff should be able to provide a good run-down, if he takes notice of this article.
As for copper, apparently the old Mt Lyell tailings are now being “mined” for copper.
Love that!
“Solidified Electricity”
Sounds like an album title.
Okay, name some “abundant” bauxite production/deposits in North America or Europe or Japan.
Well, the name comes from Les Baux, in France. And then there is Bauxite, Arkansas.
But the big accumulations are in tropical regions.
Replace “big” with “better” or big & better! 🧑🎄
List of countries by bauxite production – Wikipedia
Note Australia.
Either you’re a bot or congrats on your internet search. Bauxite Arkansas has not produced aluminum from ore since WW2 and Alcoa has been spending on bauxite land reclamation for a generation. Also, go tell west Africans that their bauxite reserves and water/electricity capacity are unlimited. Might want to tell ISIS also. Then add bauxite digging to the two-faced approach of Australia in the great green debate, along with coal iron uranium natural gas and copper exports.
Aluminum is also the staple material for beer cans, hence the stewardship of this valuable resource is an existential imperative!
Most aluminum smelters are located next to hydroelectric dams (or geothermal steam in Iceland) where there is that huge amperage of cheap reliable electricity you need for the smelting. The ore is mined in developing countries who don’t care too much about CO2 emissions from diesel equipment and transported long distances in ships whose emissions aren’t charged to any one country. So winners all round.
The leaders of European car manufacturers are already telling their governments that the targets (2030/2035) for the elimination of ICE engined cars are unachievable and unrealistic.
Yeah, but governments are really good at ignoring what they don’t want to hear.
So is industry if they hear what they can’t possibly do.
I knew hoarding all those pennies in coffee cans would pay off someday.
My kids laugh at me for doing that very thing 1982 and older are real copper pennies, not the current copper washed zinc.
You do know that pennies haven’t been copper for a long time, no?
From the U.S. Mint
I remember the 60’s. A Silver Dollar had the buying power of an ounce of silver.
A dime had the buying power of 1/10 of an ounce of silver.
(In the early 60’s my parents got us all into coin collecting. I’m missing 2 (maybe 3) dimes, Mercury and Roosevelt, from my collection up till the mid or later 60’s. All silver and the filled by dimes that were in circulation back then.
I like the way the old silver coins ring if you spin them on a hard table and let them gradually tip over as they slow down. I’ve got a few Canadian quarters and dimes from ?1960s that had some silver at least.
Of course. Intrinsic metals in coins has been systematically eliminated since 1932.
Well, those of us who happen to have copper pots and pans will have to give them up when the induction cooktops become mandatory. So we can all add them to the pile of copper that will be needed to make the windmills and solar panels and batteries work well. I think that the Chinese did something like this back in the 60s, to make iron and steel in back yards, and it turned out really well – look at them now!
Or, we could figure out some way to use aluminum instead. It has been done before, and I think that a LOT of transmission lines use it, so why not? Maybe this time we will figure out how to do it so that houses don’t burn down.
The Chines as Willis describes them are business people and act like capitalists. I’m having a real problem understanding all our local activity in mining these metals. China will always undersell our production, making it uneconomic. We used to have rare metal mines in N.A. but they couldn’t survive at our costs. What has changed?
Nothing has changed. Their goal is the power, authority, to spread their ideology, by force if necessary, but they prefer to buy it by underselling The West. (Do they have a minimum wage?)
I think that the rank and file that have bought into CAGW and its “solutions” have a mind set similar to what happens when they turn their faucet for water or flush their toilet.
They assume water will come out and the other will be gone.
No need to think about what it takes to get the water there or the other “not there”.
Dams and/or wells are usually required. Wastewater plants and/or septic systems are usually required.
The Green energy dream requires LOTS of mining for copper, lithium, cobalt … and, yes, coal or drilling for other fossil fuel. Even nuclear requires mining.
The Green Dream is ugly and it is not sustainable.
I wonder what the ratio of copper in a 100MW coal power plant versus a 100MW of wind mills or 100MWs of solar panels? (Don’t forget the copper necessary to wire the mills or panels together, as well as the copper needed by the electronics necessary to connect those fields to the grid.
Mark, I have summarised some of the issues at Cliscep: https://cliscep.com/2022/12/12/on-the-materials-intensity-of-wind-power/
Good question.
For the resources used, what actually delivers reliable power?
At least the coal plant will generate power all the time, especially when you need it.
So 100MW of coal is worth at least 3x 100MW of wind, and that’s pretending there’s free magical batteries in the mix to hide the times no wind blows.
Good article, My dad worked in the main office at the Anaconda Copper
Wire mill in Great Falls MT when I was a kid. There’s a proposed mine
near White Sulphur MT, The Black Butte project and another up in the
Cabinet’s that has been tied up by the enviros for a long time. A geologist
neighbor showed me a photo of a stack of boxes that were full of legal papers
regarding the court fight over the Cabinet Mtn mine. The stack was taller
than the guy standing next to it.. Last summer there was a helicopter flying around
the Boulder Batholith area doing some obvious mineral exploration work judging
by his flight paths. Phelps Dodge was up here back in the ’80’s when the Hunt
bros got into the silver market and flew the area heavily and did a huge bunch of
core drilling. I knew some of the old timers from that time and one of the core
drillers. There’s lots of minerals left but the greens won’t let it happen.
Yes, but Al Gore said the oceans are boiling and a billion climate refugees are coming …so anything goes to stop it….forward….into the abyss.
“Recoverable reserves” is a moving target; the higher the price of copper, the more “recoverable” reserves there are. (Just like oil)
“The USGS estimates that there are 880 million tonnes of recoverable copper in the ground. And here’s how that compares to the cumulative copper needs shown in Figure 1.”
The S&P report cited here says something different:
“The total amount of copper on Earth is vast. The US Geological Survey (USGS) estimates that, as of 2015, identified resources contained 2.1 billion metric tons of copper, and undiscovered resources contained an estimated 3.5 billion metric tons. However, only a fraction of this geologic resource is economically viable at present-day prices and using current technologies. As noted above, copper by-products from manufacturing and obsolete products are readily recycled. This so-called “aboveground mine” contributes to supply.”
To put the growth in demand in perspective, S&P give this graph:
The grey is the requirement for the energy transition, green is growth of other markets. We’re going to need a lot more copper regardless of transition. By 2050, the need for transition will have doubled, from 8 to 16 MT/year. But the need for other purposes will have gone from 17 to 37 MT/year. So there is a problem to be solved, but energy transition is only a small part of it.
“So there is a problem to be solved, but energy transition is only a small part of it.”
But the point, Nick, is that there won’t be enough copper to go around. Willis wasn’t blaming electrification for causing a copper shortage – yet. He was merely observing that there won’t be enough copper to carry out Net Zero. Regardless of how it is being used.
“there won’t be enough copper to carry out Net Zero”
Then there won’t be enough copper for plumbing, roofing, phones etc either. The fact is that in 2050, as in 2023, there will be a supply of copper, and all users will compete for it. According to S&P, in 2021 we used about 1/3 of our copper for energy transition, and in 2050 we’ll do the same.
I love they way you ignore the point others are making.
Without the renewable power nonsense, the demand for copper is a lot lower.
Without plumbing and roofing, the demand for copper is a lot lower too.
Plumbing & roofing are necessary.
Renewables are not.
So do you want a government authority telling you what you can use copper for?
The fact is, markets allocate use.
When Nick isn’t ignoring the point other people are making, he’s mis-characterizing it.
The only one using government to allocate resources are the renewable energy guys.
They also like to lie and claim that renewable energy is just the result of market forces, completely ignoring the fact that none of it would exist if it weren’t for government subsidies and mandates.
About 6 billion people around the world haven’t got a roof over their head or plumbing Nick.
They need the available copper for proper electricity (and plumbing).
“The fact is, markets allocate use.”
To date, the market has driven us to a state where copper is not a primary need for either roofing or plumbing. (It does explain a lot if you really do have a concern as to whether or not you will be able to have a copper roof.)
And, it would be very nice if people like you would stay out of the way and allow the markets to allocate use.
Nick,
What market allocates use of uranium in Australia?
Government policy does. Geoff S
Would you want a free market in uranium?
This article is about copper.
My comment invalidated your evidence-free assertion that markets allocate use. They do not for uranium in Australia. More, they do not for fracked gas in Victoria. Geoff S
And when in a hole, Nick’s first instinct is to dig faster.
Homes are needed. Renewable power isn’t.
A while back there was a geology oriented article that made calculations based on what we supposedly know about the composition of the earth’s crust, which obviously varies considerably in any given location so i guess this was about that mythical average. Anyway, the story was, take any general square mile and go down one mile, i.e. one cubic mile of the crust. The claim was that in that (average) cubic mile exist all the minerals the human race would need well into the future. This was well before the current political insanity but regardless, the idea is that, if the need is there and the technology is developed and the will is there, the minerals are there.
But, at what price? And, with what environmental side-effects?
Most plumbing seems to us high pressure poly-pipe now.
What copper is used for roofing? That’s not a smart-arse question, I just don’t know the area to any extent.
Phone don’t use much of any metals, but there are a lot of phones.
The bottom line, though, is that the price increases as demand increases, so it’s worthwhile mining lower grade ores. There is also a switch to substitutes, as noted above.
The “we’ll run out of X” argument is rarely convincing. “We don’t have the capability to do it in the stated time frame” is far more valid.
According to copper.org
“Building construction accounts for nearly half of all copper use”
Thanks for the link.
Plumbing must vary between countries/states. When our current house was built 20-odd years ago, the external and internal pipes were high pressure (blue line) poly pipe. The only copper was in the brass fittings. It’s not negligible, but far less than if the pipes had been copper as well. Quite a lot of what was formerly copper (eg cistern float) is now plastic, and there is scope for more use of other alloys or plastic.
There didn’t seem to be any mention of roofing, so that’s probably not much of a factor now. I think guttering and down pipes might have been copper in the past.
not plastic! regardless of temperature, plastic will kill everything. Maybe hand bored rock pipes?
How are you going to have plastic after the “Just Stop Oil” ratbags (or ‘Teals’) take over the government front benches?
You and Andy are indulging in scope creep. If copper becomes more expensive, substitution will take place where possible. That’s just how it works.
Possibly anodised Aluminium instead of brass for water fittings, to pluck something out of thin air.
Copper is probably still the most practical material for low voltage wiring, but some additional efficiencies may be possible. Increasing voltage lowers amperage for the same power. Automotive application switched from 6V to 12V in the 1950s, which allowed lighter wiring. LED lights draw much less power than incandescent. Fibre optics for tail lights?
That means bigger holes in the ground, greater consumption of energy to mine and crush the ore, and a bigger waste disposal problem. The increases are geometric, not linearl
For the same output, yes.
Apparently it’s now economic to process the tailings of the closed Mt Lyell copper mine in Tasmania.
Ahh, that info about processing the tailings came from a friend who must have misheard it. It appears they plan to re-open the underground mine. https://www.australianresourcesandinvestment.com.au/2022/04/05/how-is-new-centurys-mt-lyell-restart-progressing/
Nick,
While there is enough copper in the ground to meet various forecast needs, the big uncertainty is the availablity of resources, such as competent, trained people and energy resources like gas and electricity for remote locations and infrastructure such as roads and abundance of the massive machines like haul trucks and more, more.
These are not off-the-shelf items. Can’t slip into Bunnings and buy them ready for use tomorrow.
The is a lag, often about 10 to 20 years, between exploration starting and product coming on the market. The duration of the lag is near as hard to predict as herding cats. The fundamental lag is always there and with copper mining we cope with it. Newer products like lithium are even harder to plan.
But the big effect that you are missing is sudden acceleration. The mining industry cannot simply dial in double the present production and have it start tomorrow.. It takes years and years to double production.
If net zero was possible by 2050, the accelerated production might, just might, be achieved by 2050. But it has to build up.
So what are we going to use during this huge and very costly acceleration from now to 2050? Dream on.
Net zero carbon by 2050 is a deadly concept that cannot succeed. Many people will be murdered in its early stages before sanity prevails. How can you, in good conscience, support this push that will be labelled mass murder Pot Pol style unless wisdom dominates over dogma and stops it dead? Geoff S
The IEA Global EV Outlook 2022, published in May 22, estimated the number of new mines needed to meet the ‘Stated Policies Scenario’ of 200m EVs by 2030 and the ‘Announced Pledges Scenario’ of over 250m EVs by that date.
For the SPS scenario there will need to be 30 new lithium mines, 41 new nickel mines and 11 new cobalt mines. Total 82 new mines.
For the APS scenario it’s 50 new lithium mines, 60 new nickel mines and 17 new cobalt mines. Total 127 new mines.
They acknowledge it can take 16 years or more to bring a new mine to full production and that the APS scenario fell somewhat short of where EV production needed to be to meet Net Zero by 2050 which would require production of over 350m EVs by 2030.
Geoff,
“But the big effect that you are missing is sudden acceleration. The mining industry cannot simply dial in double the present production and have it start tomorrow.. It takes years and years to double production.”
Well, I’ll shows another plot from Willis’ S&P report on future needs:
This is mine capacity; IOW, how much could we get from existing mines. As you see, it nearly trebled since 1995. So doubling to 2050 is not such a stretch. In fact, the increase is more like linear.
“So what are we going to use during this huge and very costly acceleration from now to 2050? Dream on.”
That is how it goes here. Double coal? Gas? Humans can do anything. But find an extra 8 MT of copper for energy transition, when non-energy needs are increasing from 17 to 38 MT/year? Dream on! What about regulation? Environmental restrictions? Training staff? Pollution? Child labor! You’ll have blood on your hands.
Then there won’t be enough copper for plumbing, roofing, phones etc either.
So unnecessarily increase significantly the demand for an already scarce resource? Great solution.
From Wiki — “Peak Copper”
Concern about the copper supply is not new. In 1924 geologist and copper-mining expert Ira Joralemon warned:
“… the age of electricity and of copper will be short. At the intense rate of production that must come, the copper supply of the world will last hardly a score of years. … Our civilization based on electrical power will dwindle and die.”[4]
As a life-long mining exploration geologist, who drilled his first copper discovery hole in 1976, I can assure Willis and everyone else that there always will be a resource of copper available. If the price doubled and the environmentalists and their associates (corrupt politicians) got out of the way I could produce a tremendous amount of copper. Willis correctly illuminates the problem: to process lower-and-lower grades (or metallurgically more complex, or more isolated, etc) the price has to go up. Trillions and Trillions, Oh My! Pretty soon Gazillions?
What soon emerges is that the energy required cannot be produced from weather dependent energy extractors to treat ever lower grades.
The difference between mineable ore and rock is that ore can liberate economic value. As the cost of treatment goes up due to rising energy prices, the amount of ore diminishes. Estimated resource drops to zero.
Any country relying on weather dependent energy extractors has no ore reserves. The cost of liberating the copper is more than its economic value. In different words, the liberated copper placed into a wind turbine will not liberate its share of energy in the life of the turbine. Likewise when it comes to recycling after the end of life.
As the cost of energy goes up, ore resources diminish. You may be able to find mineral deposits but none of it is economic to treat.
The ROEI argument is near impossible to refute without resorting to fairy dust and unicorns.
obviously, more subsidies are required.
Its like feeding some of your chickens to the other chickens when the chicken feed runs out.
Yes, Ron,
Ditto for me on Uranium.
Change the policy tomorrow to one of unlocking government restrictions and I could maybe double Australia’s capacity to produce uranium.
Not so sure about copper. It was tedious work to add what my colleagues and I have done.
There are perhaps 20 porphyry copper deposits, too low grade to mine so far, that need a look at, down the East coast of Australia.
Roxby Downs, that huge deposit of Cu and U, discovered by Western Mining Corporation in the 1980s, has potential more more of its type. We found that type of mineralization a hundred km away, but it was very deep and too risky to drill a lot more 1,500 m diamond holes to test grade and extent, when Roxby was alread doing production. Geoff S
“Gazillions” means plenty of incentive for substitution.
Yup.
Current melt value for the 95% copper Lincoln cents is about 2.8 cents. Would not surprise me at all if it hits 3 cents sometime in the not-too-distant future. I believe I recall reading though that it is currently illegal to melt down the copper cents because the U.S. Mint is worried it will create a shortage of them.
1909-1982 Lincoln Copper Penny Melt Value – Coinflation
Sort of reminds me of when the Mint took the silver out of the dime and quarter in 1965. The pre-1965 silver dimes and quarters probably disappeared from circulation pretty quickly. Current bullion value of a pre-1965 silver dime: about $1.71. Quarter: about $4.28.
Good luck trying to find a pre-1965 silver dime or quarter still in circulation today.
Oops. This comment was meant to be a reply to Doonman at 10:30 am above.
The copper in a nickle is currently worth roughly a nickle. If the price of copper goes up people will start hoarding their nickles.
One odd place to look for thin silver dimes is under the baseboards of old houses. When change fell to the floor a dime was just thin enough to slide under the baseboard, where it would be unseen.
My mother collected old coins, and on his way home from work my father would stop to talk to men ripping down old houses. Silver was still in circulation back then, but in the old days it was deemed good luck, when building a house, to put a silver coin under the front door threshold. Then when the house was torn down the men would grab the coins. The coins could be old ones, so my Dad would buy them off the workers and hand them to my Mom.
“”So can we please stop this Net-Zero nonsense””?
Apparently not.
“”Everything from the funding for net zero schemes to the need for regulation, parliamentary scrutiny, data, and research and development is examined, along with sectors of the economy from energy and transport to housing and farming.””
https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/19/uk-net-zero-report-recommendations-and-conclusions
It isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. They haven’t a clue
Ja. Ja. We need more copper. Just for the transport of electricity….
Green energy is not clean or affordable. Get over it.
My first thoughts were that copper recycling in future years might cover a significant part of the deficit, or that alternatives will be developed to cover the shortage. Looks like that was considered and ruled out. From the first bullet point in the Key Findings:
• Copper—the “metal of electrification”—is essential to all energy transition plans. But the potential supply-demand gap is expected to be very large as the transition proceeds. Substitution and recycling will not be enough to meet the demands of electric vehicles (EVs), power infrastructure, and renewable generation. Unless massive new supply comes online in a timely way, the goal of Net-Zero Emissions by 2050 will be short-circuited and remain out of reach. (Emphasis added)
But stealing copper cables from everywhere will rival the drug wars.
It’s already big business in many parts of the world.
Add one more to the large pile of reasons net zero is impossible, let alone by 2050.
It is a good thing the world has no real need to get to net zero, because it could never get there from here.
But the net zero concept does show the abject innumeracy of its advocates.
Ernest Hemingway’s comment about going bankrupt perhaps also applies to the bankrupt idea of net zero:
”slowly at first, then suddenly”.
Every Istvan statement is correct ONLY if you assume Nut Zero was intended to succeed. the innumeracy is deliberate. Nut Zero is designed to fail for political reasons detailed in my prior long winded comment.
You are too smart to think like a leftist.
You also love America and want to improve the nation.
Leftists don’t — they want a fundamental transformation of the current economic system.
Nut Zero is intended to help take down the current economic system. Leftists ruin everything they touch — there have a reason for doing that. They should never be allowed to redesign the electric grids. See my prior comment.
“The problem is that copper is the only material suitable for transmitting electricity”
Not arguing with the overall premise that we’ll run out of mineable minerals long before we can reach clean energy utopia, but I’m pretty sure the above statement is…um…less than accurate.
https://readytogocables.com/why-are-aluminum-wires-used-for-transmission-cables/
Yeah, that was an overstatement. I’ll fix it in the head post.
w.
The only logical answer to all this green madness is nuclear energy, period. In parallel, we’ll continue to use oil/gas as needed, even if that’s decades/centuries in the future.
I find myself getting more and more aggressive with people around me who make any mention of climate change, green energy, etc. as I’m simply tired of the blindness to it all. I’ve encouraged many to visit this site and just do some simple reading of the volume of good information share here. I can only hope they take me up on it.
I think you are whistling in the dark. My experience is “deniers” “conspiracy theorists” “oil company propaganda”, therefore a grave sin to even look at.
TS,
While agreeing with you in overall principle that nuclear is the way to go, there are further details to be sorted. We are talking about new copper mines needed. Typically, some will be found in remote places far from grids. Solutions? Small scale portable nuclear? New, sometimes very long grid supply? Continue with trucking diesel to on-site generators?
The alternatives are easy to invent and evaluate, but only when people stop making sweeping rules about what is allowed and what is not. Geoff S
Timing is everything – random off/on topic.
Just today i came upon a UK website where homeowners, those brave pioneers who have one, can record the performance of their heat pumps.
OK, bookmark for later although I did do some sums on one ##
Anyway, seeing the headline here ‘Copper’ it dawned, Holy Cow that’s what refrigeration systems are made of – Copper has immense thermal conductivity as well as electrical
Bless the interwebs, I does search for “copper content home heat pump”
In the UK it tells me:”Up to 21 kg/46 lbs of copper can be found in air source heat pump evaporators, condensers, compressors, piping, connection, control and sensor cabling
For 30 million houses in the UK, I get (using 20kg) 660,000 Tonnes
But every house in The Whole World will need one – either as a ‘heating’ heat pump or as a ‘cooling’ heat pump aka Air Conditioning
<over to you>
## The heat pump calc was sweet – from my spreadsheet here’s what I got.
It was for a heat pump installed in an oldish house in Fife, Scotland.
Over the 501 days since installation:
All before/after:
But work out the elec consumption = 8kW per day
Ain’t that sooo neat as it’s exactly what UK Gov says is a UK home’s ‘typical consumption’
So the heat pump doubles elec consumption
And as my electric car rule of thumb says, a 10,000 mile per year ‘habit’ will cost you 10kWh per day of electric
It really is True Insanity going on out there…
PS Today/tonite was a serious try out of getting folks to switch everything off between certain evening hours (16:30 thro 19:00 I think) in return for megabucks against the elec they would have used those hours.
UK grid slowed to (and is still at) 49.9Hz although voltage held up really well – I’m seeing 243Volts right now.
(The French were really mean tonite, hardly anything from their quarter)
In AC power engineering, voltage sag and frequency sag are two sides of the same coin (power demand/supply imbalance), necessarily calculated using complex numbers of the form a+bi. The closer to a generating source, the more you will see frequency sag; the further away, voltage sag (brownout). You are probably fairly close to a generating station.
Heat pumps work in a house designed for such a system. My house is 100% electric. I have a modern wood stove for emergency winter heat, or all winter. I have trees and cut and season the wood.
Many (most?) older houses without ducts and good insulation are a poor choice. Then there are apartments and high-rise condos. What will happen in those places when the electricity goes off?
This coming Monday evening, the NWS thinks the temperature here will be 6°F.
About 80% of the UKs 450,000km of low voltage networks is built for ‘lighting plus’ c. 1.2kW loads and not a 2050 load of 7kw EV and 9kW heat pump. This 80% will need replacing. Estimated cost £60 billion and involve digging up almost all the non motorway roads in the UK
See this discussion between a employee of V2G and a Doctor of Engineering at Southampton University
https://v2g.co.uk/2021/05/electric-vehicles-as-energy-smart-appliances/
It’s much easier to understand this problem after you set aside common sense, professional knowledge, and experience. At that point you can reconcile it as short-term political grandstanding (at your expense) and targeted spending programs for firms and labor groups (also at your expense). The rewards of holding political power are vast compared to a few hundred billion dollars in failed programs nationally and a few trillion dollars internationally. Some of the cost is actually zero net new funding when they re-label development funds as green.