Eco Numpties Unhappy with Charging Costs

From NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT

By Paul Homewood

h/t Ian Magness

Meanwhile back in Eco-Land, the numpties are unhappy:

ev2

The cost of charging an electric car on the road has soared by nearly 60pc in eight months, making the vehicles more costly to run on long journeys than petrol motors.

Rapid charge points used by motorists topping up on long drives are now nearly £10 more expensive than filling up a car with petrol, analysis by motoring body the RAC revealed.

Alongside surging energy prices, a key reason behind the cost is that VAT is charged at 20pc on public networks, compared to 5pc for domestic energy use.

Charging an electric car at home is still much cheaper than buying a tank of fuel at the pumps, but many drivers are unable to install a charger at home because they do not have off-street parking.

It comes as new petrol and diesel cars are due to be banned from Britain’s roads within years as the Government pushes to reach net zero by 2050.

Yet critics say the tax levied on public electric vehicle charge points poses a threat to the Government’s ambitions.

Some believe ministers are reluctant to take the “obvious” step of setting VAT at 5pc across the board because electric vehicles are seen as elitist.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/electric-cars-now-more-costly-than-petrol-for-long-journeys/ar-AA169wj0

The numpties apparently have not realised that owners of petrol cars don’t only pay 20% VAT on petrol, but also swingeing fuel duties, which the aforesaid numpties will soon have to pay as well.

Maybe money grows on trees in Eco-Land!

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Bryan A
January 11, 2023 10:07 pm

Alas, such is the cost of lecky juicy provided by ruinable lecky sources. Empty headed Numpties just can’t fathom the blight or cost of free lectricity

gDavid
Reply to  Bryan A
January 12, 2023 6:16 am

Thanks for the morning laugh. Luckily I hadn’t started drinking my coffee.

Bryan A
January 11, 2023 10:11 pm

Money on trees? Perhaps if those trees are artificial subsidized carbon scrubbers!

Bill Powers
Reply to  Bryan A
January 17, 2023 9:01 am

The old carrot v stick. They suck the indoctrinated in with the carrot of cheap EV usage and then bludgeon the poor dumb b@sterds with a stick, which does grow on trees, which they also need to heat their homes since electricity doesn’t grow on trees.

davidmhoffer
January 11, 2023 10:16 pm

Over here in Canada and the US roads are paid for by road taxes buried in the cost of gasoline. As we change over to electric, there being fewer gasoline and diesel engine owners buying fuel, governments will be forced to similarly tax electric cars. Ooops, up goes the price of charging by another 35% or so.

Then someone will start notcing that the roads are wearing out faster because instead of every car carrying 200 pounds of gasoline they are carrying 1,000 pounds of battery. So that will have to be paid for also.

Never mind the massive infrastructure costs that the tax payer will have to bare to build all that extra generation capacity and the distribution network to go with it.

Those electric cars are gonna get real expensive, but at a slow pace, boiled frog syndrome and all that.

HotScot
Reply to  davidmhoffer
January 12, 2023 1:37 am

And that 200lbs of gasoline reduces to nearly zero until the next fill up. Electricity weighs nothing so the EV’s 1,000lbs always weighs 1,000lbs.

Richard Greene
Reply to  HotScot
January 12, 2023 4:52 am

Gasoline weighs 6 lbs. per gallon so a typical full tank of 18 gallons would weigh 108 pounds, not 200 pounds, and that’s for a full tank. On average a gas tank might be 60% full (65lbs. of gasoline).

There is also the gasoline tank weight including the fuel pump and straps to hold it to the body structure. But the structure to support 1000lbs, of batteries adds weight too. So I don’t know if ICE vehicles are worse there too.

The always heavier EV wears out tires faster. leaving behind more plastic microparticles per mile driven, from tire wear, which are real pollution.

honestyrus
Reply to  Richard Greene
January 12, 2023 7:12 am

And road wear is approximately proportional to axle weight, raised to the fourth power!

MarkW
Reply to  honestyrus
January 12, 2023 8:35 am

You need one of these

comment image

Robertvd
Reply to  Richard Greene
January 12, 2023 11:56 am

Don’t forget the brakes that have to stop that 1000lbs.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Robertvd
January 12, 2023 12:27 pm

Right: Brake dust is pollution too

HotScot
Reply to  Richard Greene
January 13, 2023 2:40 am

Gasoline weighs 6 lbs. per gallon

Not in the UK.

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
Reply to  davidmhoffer
January 12, 2023 4:38 am

Road taxes vary between the various states. In Georgia we have had a state gas tax holiday since last March which just expired today, saving about $0.31 a US gallon. Federal gas tax adds about another $0.17 / gal.; together they add up to far less than 30% (based on my last fill-up roughly 11%) of the total cost.

If you have an EV in Georgia you are charged a flat $200 / year, which is more than most conventional car owners pay in fuel taxes. Driving a hybrid I pay quite a bit less.

In addition to a $50 surcharge for EVs, Hawaii charges annual registration fees based on vehicle weight class, so EV owners will pay more for the extra weight of the battery.

HB
January 11, 2023 10:51 pm

Chickens coming home to roost Just wait to the road user charges are added in enjoy it ya loonies

by the way oxford tomorrow looks like protests against the insane lock down Friday 13 th
https://thegreatclimatecon.com/oxford-residents-mount-resistance-against-the-sectioning-of-their-streets/
enjoy the show

Last edited 18 days ago by HB
HotScot
Reply to  HB
January 12, 2023 1:44 am

Whilst the Just Stop Oil mob can vandalise anything they want, in broad daylight, with few if any legal consequences, these guys are forced to obscure their faces and take action in the dead of night so as not to be arrested and the key thrown away.

Redge
January 11, 2023 11:03 pm

Even Tesco are stopping free EV charging (i.e. all Tesco shoppers subsidising people who can afford an EV)

About time too

kirriepete
January 11, 2023 11:21 pm

“owners of petrol cars don’t only pay 20% VAT on petrol, but also swingeing fuel duties”

Plus 20% VAT on the fuel duty as well, so the Treasury gets 2 bites of our cherry, double dipping b’stards!

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  kirriepete
January 12, 2023 2:09 am

So when the fuel duty rises by 12p a litre in the Spring the total increase will be 14.4p.

MarkW
Reply to  kirriepete
January 12, 2023 8:38 am

Speaking of double dipping, when did they start charging sales tax when you buy a gift card?

Rod Evans
January 11, 2023 11:37 pm

In the rural market town in central UK where I live our town council decided to get up to speed on the EV transport revolution apparently taking place.
They decided to install four parking spaces on the municipal car park for electric vehicles to charge.
Our little town has a shortage of parking spaces due to the manic adoption of no parking yellow double lines compulsory on every road within a mile of the town centre. No matter, four much needed spaced allocated to EV only charge points, despite the shortage of parking places. The cost to install the power to the upstands was £45,000. Since the four spaces have been operational, no EV has yet been seen charging there. The bays remain pure and unsullied, no one is parking there because the traffic wardens have been given power to ticket and fine any non EV car parking in the reserved bays.
The madness just goes on and on.

Last edited 18 days ago by Rod Evans
hiskorr
Reply to  Rod Evans
January 12, 2023 6:03 am

By what logic was it determined that private, for-profit, filling stations must be replaced with taxpayer-provided charging points with arbitrary prices unrelated to costs?

abolition man
Reply to  hiskorr
January 12, 2023 9:02 am

What logic? Libtard logic; the ultimate oxymoron!

strativarius
January 12, 2023 12:19 am

On the upside, at the lamp post charging point close to my house it’s fun to watch them plugging in and then faffing around with their phones while being pelted by the rain

So very intrepid

Dave Fair
January 12, 2023 12:47 am

There is no free lunch. And the insatiable maw of government must be fed. Given that the irrational push towards Nut Zero will drive up all energy and other costs and the fact that ruinables are much more costly than FFs, the numpties ain’t seen nothing yet.

quelgeek
Reply to  Dave Fair
January 12, 2023 1:51 am

All this and more is true, but I fret that in a few years, after the ICEs have been banned, the dearth of materials and parts will mean even a used EV will be beyond my means. The nupties buying them today, especially with subsidies available, may get the last laugh.

On the bright side I suppose in future I won’t have to worry about charging costs any more than I worry today about mooring fees for a super-yacht…

DavsS
Reply to  quelgeek
January 12, 2023 9:46 am

What’ll be the value of a used EV when a new battery will be required within a couple of years?

Richard Greene
Reply to  Dave Fair
January 12, 2023 4:58 am

Milton Friedman man was my favorite economist for many years. Now Walter Williama and Thomas Sowell.

Unfortunately, there is a free lunch for some people. Those who get government benefits and pay no income taxes.

Last edited 17 days ago by Richard Greene
Dave Fair
Reply to  Richard Greene
January 12, 2023 12:30 pm

About 50% of U.S. wage earners pay no Federal Income Tax. And tax credits are now cash rebates.

JamesB_684
Reply to  Dave Fair
January 12, 2023 12:46 pm

Those cash rebates are being paid for with currency fabricated out of thin air. Tax revenues are << FedGov spending, with Trillion+ $$ deficits, every year now. Eventually, this is going to all crash back to Earth.

Robertvd
Reply to  Dave Fair
January 12, 2023 4:05 pm

In the land of the Free there can’t be income taxes or other forms of Direct taxation.

Disputin
Reply to  Robertvd
January 13, 2023 2:27 am

So where is the “Land of the Free”? I want to go there.

HotScot
January 12, 2023 1:24 am

If internal combustion engines are to be banned altogether in the UK as of 2035, does this include Hydrogen as a fuel as it’s internally combusted?

Hydrogen fuelled ICE vehicles can’t be zero emissions (other than water) when they must use oil as a lubricant, which is burned in the combustion process?

With no oil or gas extraction (assuming Joe sticks to his word and eliminates FF’s altogether) how will hydrogen be produced without gas, being that electrolysis is prohibitively expensive and untried at scale.

Do politicians know anything?

quelgeek
Reply to  HotScot
January 12, 2023 1:58 am

It hadn’t occurred to me that one would burn hydrogen in a combustion engine. I’d assume we’d be using fuel-cells and electric motors.

(Edit: actually I assume hydrogen will never make much impact no matter how it’s used.)

Last edited 17 days ago by quelgeek
AGW is Not Science
Reply to  quelgeek
January 12, 2023 3:40 am

Like “renewables” (wind and solar), hydrogen is an energy sink, and will have no “impact” at all.

quelgeek
Reply to  AGW is Not Science
January 12, 2023 5:08 am

…no impact as an enabling storage technology. Better?

1saveenergy
Reply to  HotScot
January 12, 2023 2:24 am

“Hydrogen fuelled ICE vehicles can’t be zero emissions (other than water) when they must use oil as a lubricant, which is burned in the combustion process?”

Hydrogen fuelled ICE vehicles also produce NOX

0311
Reply to  HotScot
January 12, 2023 7:15 am

Politicians know only the grift. Go in rich come out much richer. That’s the drill.

abolition man
Reply to  0311
January 12, 2023 9:08 am

Only an idiot like Trump could lose wealth while serving in office, right libtards?

Modern Marxism; criminally insane sociopaths and psychopaths leading the ignorant and undereducated in the latest systematic method of human sacrifice; Scientism!

rah
Reply to  HotScot
January 12, 2023 8:23 am

I’m waiting to how those E trucks work for them. How about the cranes and other heavy vehicles and equipment used for construction. Then there is the agricultural machinery. I wonder how much an electric version of a CAT D9 bulldozer is going to weigh? Will all rail lines be electrified by 2035?

Dave Andrews
Reply to  rah
January 12, 2023 9:26 am

They won’t be in the UK. Network Rail that runs the rail line infrastructure put forward a plan to electrify 13,000 kms of track at cost of £30 billion. The Treasury turned it down. That was over a year ago. The cost will be even more now.

Alexy Scherbakoff
January 12, 2023 1:40 am

But… but…but it’s free energy from the sun and wind. Why do I have to pay?

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Alexy Scherbakoff
January 12, 2023 3:42 am

Cost of harnessing the “free” energy is enormous.

zzebowa
January 12, 2023 2:21 am

Wind power = 250% higher electricity. They caused this. They did it to themselves. They are incredibly stupid not to realize this,

Daniel Church
Reply to  zzebowa
January 13, 2023 7:24 pm

Windmills freeze people to death in their homes.

observa
January 12, 2023 2:45 am

The simple fact is EV public chargers rarely present a business case-
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2021/01/25/can-electric-car-charging-be-a-business/?sh=4e0502b371e9
Hence even in locations of maximum demand/useage the price will necessarily be high as well as a penalty standing charge to move users along and ensure they only fast charge between 20-80% of battery capacity. Essentially no dawdling with the slower top 20% of your fuel tank.

Consequently EVs are mainly suitable as household second car urban commuter/runabouts providing there’s off-street parking for overnight AC trickle charging. As that grows and coal fired power shuts down home charging will cop peak power rates without solar at night.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  observa
January 12, 2023 9:29 am

As I understand it constant use of fast charging degrades your battery rather quickly.

Peta of Newark
January 12, 2023 3:04 am

Of course they’re unhappy. Everybody is unhappy with everybody else. Grumbling and griping is now the only thing that makes anyone happy anymore – all else has been taxed/regulated into extinction
Thanks Tony. Thank Boris.
At least Boris tacitly admitted as much, his only significant joy was getting pi$$ed every Friday afternoon in the office/garden at #10, while formulating Government Policy.
Nice work etc etc
I couldn’t do that, been dry for 20 years now

Meanwhile (no comment I’m just saying) but it looks like the windmills are coming good.
Look at any of the gridwatches and UK windmills have been making over 50% of UK electric consistently these last few days.

Attached is a current snapshot from BMReports
UK electric wholesale prices are banging between £200 per MWh and £zero, or even negative.

(The horizontal scale is divided into 30 minute units of time on each day where ’48’= midnight)
So from 23:30 last night to 05:30 today, electricity was £0.00 per MWh while UK was using about 30GW through the night
See also same time yesterday, from 01:30 to 05:30 it was minus £11 per MWh

UK Wholesale Electrickery.PNG
quelgeek
Reply to  Peta of Newark
January 12, 2023 3:18 am

“Look at any of the gridwatches and UK windmills have been making over 50% of UK electric consistently these last few days.”

The players at the roulette table having been winning consistently these last few spins.

Is the expectation of consistent winning a good plan?

observa
Reply to  Peta of Newark
January 12, 2023 3:26 am

Typical NEM grid in Oz at 9:20pm at night and fossil fuels are running at 77% with wind only 14% which the latter could only manage 3% at 2 in the afternoon-
https://www.aemo.com.au/Energy-systems/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-NEM/Data-Dashboard-NEM
Knock off the 68% black and brown coal and all the fantasy EV owners wanting to charge at night and where will we be?

Richard Greene
Reply to  Peta of Newark
January 12, 2023 5:04 am

“Everybody is unhappy with everybody else.”

The people we know are mainly leftists, unfortunately, while we are conservatives More conservatives seem happy than leftists in my opinion. Leftists seem to think the future is grim with climate change, etc. while conservatives are too busy enjoying their lives with their families to be fearful of climate and other leftist fantasy boogeymen.

Last edited 17 days ago by Richard Greene
abolition man
Reply to  Richard Greene
January 12, 2023 9:18 am

Many polls and studies have shown that those with traditional, or conservative values, are both happier AND more generous! At least with their own money!
The Modern Marxist Maniac likes to spend OPM on his/her religious artifacts, in hopes that that Earth won’t become the Hell that they were proselytized to fear!
I find it fascinating that classical Liberals, probably on of the largest segments of the Western population, are now routinely called Nazis or racists. Makes you go “Hmm!”

MarkW
Reply to  abolition man
January 12, 2023 10:29 am

Seems like Nazi has become the standard label for anyone who disagrees with a socialist.

MarkW
Reply to  Richard Greene
January 12, 2023 10:26 am

In general people become leftists because they are convinced that the world is totally f’d up, and that only they can fix it.

Conservatives on the other hand recognize that the world is f’d up, realize that it’s been f’d up for thousands of years and that it will remain f’d up long after they are dead, and that there is nothing they can do about it.

Conservatives instead of trying to fix the world, concentrate on trying to make their little corner of the world a little bit better in the time they have, and don’t worry about trying to fix the people they come across.

Last edited 17 days ago by MarkW
Richard Greene
Reply to  MarkW
January 12, 2023 12:31 pm

That is a BIG load of wisdom in one short comment. You are brilliant, even using the dreaded F word, when no other word would work as well.

So good that I am stealing your comment for my Election Circus blog. And I have never used a curse word on any of my blogs since my first ECONOMIC LOGIC blog was launched in 2008.

As an editor, my motto for my three blogs:
If it’s good writing, I’ll steal it.

Election Circus: A great comment from the WUWT website by a Mark W. — Leftists versus conservatives

Last edited 17 days ago by Richard Greene
Paul B
January 12, 2023 3:15 am

I have one of these near me that I drive by four times each day. It’s been there since last summer and I have yet to see a car being charged there. 20 charging slots. Zero cars.

The eco geniuses put it at the end of a strip mall parking lot. Who knew folks wouldn’t want to sit outside on the asphalt watching the grass grow.

Alfred T Mahan
January 12, 2023 3:33 am

I bought a hybrid petrol/electric car a few months ago. My decision was entirely based on the tax incentives, even to the point where I bought a larger car than I strictly need because it has a higher electric only range and therefore falls into a lower bracket as a taxable benefit. But, of course, when it is being driven on petrol I’m carting around a huge extra weight of batteries and engine for no practical benefit, and when I’m driving on electric I have the weight of the ICE and fuel to cart about.

How on earth is that going to save the environment? It only increases the total amount of energy that I use.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Alfred T Mahan
January 12, 2023 5:18 am

Toyota Camry LE ICE curb weight 3,310lbs
Toyota Camry LE Hybrid curb weight 3,480lbs

The difference is 170lbs.
That’s not so much
170lbs. is equivalent to one really fat battle axe Mother in Law passenger, in scientific terms

The Toyota Hybrids battery cost varies depending on model and model year. However, the HV battery price ranges between $3,365 to $3,600. The total replacement cost with labor isn’t as high as Teslas. Toyota places the Hybrid battery under the passenger seat, and replacing the battery takes less than an hour.

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
Reply to  Richard Greene
January 12, 2023 11:15 am

Richard:

The term “hybrid” has unfortunately been stretched to cover both the original design typified by Toyota Synergy drive pioneered on the Prius and the newer “plug-in hybrid” designs with larger batteries intended to drive 30 miles or more strictly on battery power. A traditional hybrid has a small (~1.5KWh) battery usually using nickel metal hydride chemistry, so the weight penalty is not that great. A plug-in hybrid has a larger Lithium-ion battery, but not as large as a pure electric vehicle.

Toyota RAV4 offers, pure ICE, hybrid and plug-in hybrid options:

RAV4 ICE: $28,910, 3,380 lbs., 14.5 gal @ 30 MPG = 435 miles
RAV4 hybrid: $31,560, 3,710 lbs., 14.5 gal @ 40 MPG = 580 miles
RAV4 plug-in hybrid: $41,515, 4,235 lbs., electric range 42 miles, 580 on gas.

The small battery and electric motor in the traditional hybrid model add 330 lbs. The larger battery and motor add 855 lbs.

With the RAV4 spending an extra $2,650 for the hybrid saves 33% on fuel and gives another 150 miles of range on a full tank. Spending an extra $10K on top of that to go just 42 miles on electric makes no economic sense.

There are very few models available both as conventional ICE and BEV, but the Hyundai Kona is one:

Kona ICE: $25,095, 2,899 lbs., 13.2 gal @ 32 MPG = 436 miles
Kona Electric: $35,295, 3,715 lbs., EPA range 258 miles

So replacing the entire ICE drivetrain with a battery and motor adds 816 lbs. I don’t have a figure for the weight of just the battery pack.

All prices shown are for the least expensive option level show in Edmunds.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
January 12, 2023 12:53 pm

Thanks for valuable additional information
I think the smaller battery hybrids make more economic sense but that would depend on miles driven per year and typical miles driven per day.

Last edited 17 days ago by Richard Greene
Don Perry
Reply to  Richard Greene
January 12, 2023 11:27 am

“Total replacement cost … isn’t as high as Teslas.”
Nor is the life expectancy of the battery! You’re not comparing apples to apples.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Don Perry
January 12, 2023 12:59 pm

I did not say that
My comment was on weight differences and mentioned the Camry hybrid battery cost too.
I wasn’t comparing apples.
I was comparing an ICE Camry and a hybrid Camry weight.
Next time I’ll compare apples to apples.
Maybe discuss how to make a fruit salad?

May Contain Traces of Seafood
Reply to  Richard Greene
January 12, 2023 4:39 pm

Richard, but you DID say:

The total replacement cost with labor isn’t as high as Teslas.

So… comparing apples with different apples maybe?

There is also some room for confusion with the Toyota supplied material.

The Camry versions have it seems the same 2.5L donk, although the hybrid version is listed at a lower HP.

Why? Not sure. Best semi educated guess is that the engine is also being used to power the batteries, resulting in lest ‘real’ power available to actually drive the car.

So, if these assumptions are correct then the Hybrid has a less available engine power and is heavier. Hmmm… not seeing advantages here to be honest.

observa
January 12, 2023 3:33 am

Did you know last year Toyota sold 90000 virtual EVs in Oz and there’s queues of a couple of years for them?
https://www.carscoops.com/2022/10/toyota-exec-says-300000-hybrids-it-sold-equate-to-90000-evs-as-he-defends-approach/
It’s because car buyers with their hard-earned aren’t stupid.

observa
Reply to  observa
January 12, 2023 5:36 am
hiskorr
Reply to  observa
January 12, 2023 6:34 am

Twenty million vehicles on the road in Australia. One million new cars sold last year with maybe 200,000 BEV or HEV. How long to replace the fleet @ 1%/year?

Dave Andrews
Reply to  hiskorr
January 12, 2023 9:51 am

Earlier this year the IEA estimated there were 16.5m EVs worldwide and that there might be 200m – 250m worldwide by 2030.

There are currently over 1.4 billion ICEVs worldwide. Early adopters of EVs will be looking to replace the battery, if not the car, by 2030. Are EVs ever going to replace all ICEVs?

MarkW
Reply to  Dave Andrews
January 12, 2023 10:33 am

Are EVs ever going to replace all ICEVs?

Not on their own, which is why the totalitarians seek to ban them.

MarkW
Reply to  hiskorr
January 12, 2023 10:32 am

Don’t forget that the life expectancy for those EVs is substantially less than the life expectancy of an ICE vehicle.

Richard Greene
January 12, 2023 4:12 am

In the US
Tesla Model 3 EV MSRP = $48,440
A sub-compact low reliability higher insurance cost virtue signaling clown car
that runs mainly on natural gas and coal

Toyota Camry LE Hybrid EV / ICE MSRP = $29,515
mid-sized high reliability 50mpg car that runs mainly on gasoline

So the green dreamer econuts will pay $19,000 more for a smaller less reliable much less convenient to refuel clown car like the Tesla Model 3, and then have the nerve to complain that electricity costs too much?

Even worse, that pesky Elon Musk now believes in FREE SPEECH at TWITTER … So much for your hero, YOU $@#%$ LEFTISTS …$#@#%$ YOU AND THE HIGH HORSE YOU RODE INTO TOWN ON.

Simon
Reply to  Richard Greene
January 12, 2023 11:31 am

So much nonsense in one post.
So the green dreamer econuts will pay $19,000 more for a smaller less reliable much less convenient to refuel clown car like the Tesla Model 3, and then have the nerve to complain that electricity costs too much?
Less reliable says who? Maybe the older EV’s but not the newer ones.
Less convenient to refuel. Bollocks. I do it at my convenience at home. Never have to waste time going to a gas station. Couldn’t be easier.
Cost. I run my EV for the fraction of the cost of a gas car. I can do 160kms for just over $3NZ . The same in petrol would be closer to $30.
And find me an ICE car that can perform like a model 3 in the same price range. Certainly not your Camry hybrid. You are comparing apples with oranges. My model 3 does 0-60mph in just over three seconds. You are paying a whole lot more than that (both in running costs and energy) for a comparable ICE car. You think Im wrong… name one? And almost no maintenance compared to a performance ICE car. No tuning… no servicing.

MarkW
Reply to  Simon
January 12, 2023 2:09 pm

Says who? Says the data.

The battery will need replacing long, long before the ICE needs replacing.

There are many people who don’t have off street parking.

It’s only less expensive because other people are subsidizing you. FIrst in the purchase of the car itself, then the fact that you aren’t paying road taxes for the roads you are using.

It’s been decades since anyone has had to tune a car. You really should try to keep up.

Simon
Reply to  MarkW
January 12, 2023 2:50 pm

The battery will need replacing long, long before the ICE needs replacing.”
Yawn…. do some reading before opening your mouth. Modern batteries are way better and will last much longer than the earlier generations.
“There are many people who don’t have off street parking.”
I get that. Don’t buy an EV till you do get it.
“It’s only less expensive because other people are subsidizing you. “
Here we go again. No complaints when the fossil fuel guys get subsidies and tax breaks, but how dare the EV team get them. Hypocrite much.
“It’s been decades since anyone has had to tune a car. “
Any ICE cars that go from 0-60 in 3 seconds need costly maintenance. I note you didn’t suggest an ICE car that perform like that and cost 40k US.

MarkW
Reply to  Simon
January 12, 2023 6:01 pm

A few percent better is not way better.
Regardless, I was talking about modern batteries.

Is there any lie so thoroughly refuted that you won’t repeat it.
There are no subsidies for fossil fuel companies. Being allowed to deduct your expenses is not a subsidy.

If you want acceleration, buy a rocket sled. If you want to burn through massive amounts of other peoples money, buy an electric car.

If you want to be proud of yourself while burning through massive amounts of other people’s money, become a socialist.

Simon
Reply to  MarkW
January 12, 2023 10:36 pm

Is there any lie so thoroughly refuted that you won’t repeat it.”
Says the guy who tries to sell the world that the last 10,000 year global temperature was warmer than today.
“Being allowed to deduct your expenses is not a subsidy.”
More complete garbage. The fossil fuel industry has been given specific subsidies. Shall I list them Mark?

Graemethecat
Reply to  Simon
January 13, 2023 7:27 am

Says the guy who tries to sell the world that the last 10,000 year global temperature was warmer than today quoth mendacious troll Simon.

Perhaps you would like to comment on this image:

tree-stump-climate.jpg
MarkW
Reply to  Simon
January 13, 2023 9:10 pm

You just don’t like reality, do you. The entirety of the Holocene optimum was between 3 and 5C warmer than it is today.

Why don’t you list them. If you can.

MarkW
Reply to  MarkW
January 14, 2023 7:36 am

The Holocene optimum ran from about 15K to about 5K years ago. Since then the temperature has been gradually cooling with occassional warm periods and cold periods. We are currently warming up from the latest cold period. We haven’t even reached the level of the previous warm period, much less the other warm periods or the optimum itself.

Simon
Reply to  MarkW
January 14, 2023 8:17 pm
Last edited 15 days ago by Simon
MarkW
Reply to  Simon
January 14, 2023 9:38 pm

As always, when forced to come up with data, Simon quickly runs to his favorite propaganda sites, guaranteed to generate what ever is needed to support the narrative.

Simon
Reply to  MarkW
January 15, 2023 1:08 am

Well let’s see the quality sites you have to back up your bull shite and nonsense? I will look forward to seeing what you have… but I suspect, like always, it is at this point you will “run away….” Face it Mark, when the going gets tough, you get going…. away.

MarkW
Reply to  Simon
January 15, 2023 12:59 pm

Simon pulls up a chart form a no-name propaganda site, then demands that it be refuted.
The mere fact that there are hundreds if not thousands of studies that refute it doesn’t matter. All that matters is that it pushes the nonsense that Simon agrees with.

Have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period, as one of your saints once said.

Simon
Reply to  MarkW
January 15, 2023 4:10 pm

OK so a study published in Nature is no name propaganda…. you really are a complete clown aren’t you. I can see why your thinking is so far from the “Mark.” Find me a peer reviewed doc that agrees with your fictional statement that the average temp of the last 10000 years was warmer than today and we can have a conversation, till then keep dreaming….

May Contain Traces of Seafood
Reply to  Simon
January 12, 2023 6:28 pm

Yawn…. do some reading before opening your mouth. Modern batteries are way better and will last much longer than the earlier generations.

Way Better… Remind me, is that better or worse relative to Heaps Good?

I also note a few things here:

  • Admittance that batteries DO need replacement in the life of the vehicle
  • The comparison is from old EVs to nu EVs, not EV vs ICE.

The quality of EV batteries may have improved, but that was not the original question.

observa
Reply to  Simon
January 12, 2023 2:36 pm

For the majority financing their car or extending their home mortgage at best rates the added interest cost of EVs will negate any fuel costs. That’s before any consideration of depreciation which is by far the highest contributor to cents per mile/km as any fleet running cost comparison will attest. If it wasn’t so then why the taxpayer slushfunding and compulsion?

Simon
Reply to  observa
January 12, 2023 5:06 pm

If it wasn’t so then why the taxpayer slushfunding and compulsion?”
I get that they are not cheap. All new tech is expensive. But long term they will charge faster, last longer and be safer and cheaper. It is technology worth giving a leg up to, just like the fossil fuel industry had and still has.

MarkW
Reply to  Simon
January 12, 2023 6:03 pm

Batteries are not new technology.
Electric motors are not new technology.

Your lies, nothing new about them either.

There is not and never was a government leg up to the fossil fuel industry.

Simon
Reply to  MarkW
January 12, 2023 10:49 pm

There is not and never was a government leg up to the fossil fuel industry.”
You are so full of crap…
Shall I list the “leg ups” the fossil fuel industry gets…
Intangible Drilling Costs Deduction (26 U.S. Code § 263. Active). This provision allows companies to deduct a majority of the costs incurred from drilling new wells domestically.

“Credit for Clean Coal Investment Internal Revenue Code § 48A (Active) and 48B (Inactive). These subsidies create a series of tax credits for energy investments, particularly for coal. In 2005, Congress authorized $1.5 billion in credits for integrated gasification combined cycle properties, with $800 million of this amount reserved specifically for coal projects.

“Nonconventional Fuels Tax Credit (Internal Revenue Code § 45. Inactive). Sunsetted in 2014, this tax credit was created by the Crude Oil Windfall Profit Tax Act of 1980 to promote domestic energy production and reduce dependence on foreign oil. Although amendments to the act limited the list of qualifying fuel sources, this credit provided $12.2 billion to the coal industry from 2002-2010.”

“Last In, First Out Accounting (26 U.S. Code § 472. Active). The Last In, First Out accounting method (LIFO) allows oil and gas companies to sell the fuel most recently added to their reserves first, as opposed to selling older reserves first under the traditional First In, First Out (FIFO) method. This allows the most expensive reserves to be sold first, reducing the value of their inventory for taxation purposes.”

Oh it seems you might be wrong again MIUM….

MarkW
Reply to  Simon
January 13, 2023 9:11 pm

As I said before, deducting your costs is not a subsidy.

Why do you go out of your way to demonstrate your ignorance?

Simon
Reply to  MarkW
January 13, 2023 9:45 pm

It is a break, a leg up, a benefit, a hand out a huge dollop of government money given one way or another to the FF industry from and by the government. It’s the peoples taxes handed over to the FF industry. So why do you have a problem with EV’s getting any or all of the above? Because you do Mark, which in my book makes you an Olympic level hypocrite.

MarkW
Reply to  Simon
January 14, 2023 7:41 am

So not paying 100% of your income in taxes is a “break”, a “leg up”.

You really don’t know anything about economics or accounting do you. And you are so proud of your ignorance.

Depreciation is not a special tax break.
When a company buys office supplies, it gets to deduct them that year. When it buys a warehouse, it has to deduct the cost of the warehouse over 30 years. That is, instead of getting all of their money back this year, they have to wait 30 years to get all of their money back. Buying land is similar in that the company has to deduct the purchase price over decades, instead of getting it back immediately. They aren’t getting a break, they are just deducting the normal costs of business, the same as every other company does.

Simon
Reply to  MarkW
January 14, 2023 8:14 pm

Tax breaks are only part of the issue and many are breaks only available to the FF industry. But there are direct subsidies too. Some are listed above… you just either can’t read, or do the usual Mark thing of ignoring what you don’t like.

MarkW
Reply to  Simon
January 14, 2023 9:41 pm

Explaining why what you post doesn’t show what you wish it to show, is ignoring? Fascinating how impervious your mind is.

The depletion allowance which you mention above, is only available to the fossil fuel industry, because no other industry depletes resources in the same manner as does the fossil fuel industry, however it is no different in manner or effect than is depletion allowances used by mining industries, and are also only used by mining industries.

There are no direct subsidies, no matter how many times you repeat the lie to yourself.

May Contain Traces of Seafood
Reply to  Simon
January 12, 2023 6:20 pm

Simon responds to the original post:

Less convenient to refuel. Bollocks. I do it at my convenience at home. Never have to waste time going to a gas station. Couldn’t be easier.

(end quote)

I drive a turbo diesel. I get about 5L/100km and just under 1000km per fill. Filling takes me about 10 minutes, but I could get that down if I didn’t write up my note book and muse on buying snacks.

So 10 minutes a month.

You need to show to me that it takes you less than 20 second a day to plug and unplug your vehicle.

You also need to show me that in the remaining 43000 or so minutes in a month you can jump into your vehicle with zero prior notice and start driving.

You also also need to show me that with minimal prep (ie, check the tires, clean the windows, fire up the music) you can set off on an overnight road trip of say 600km or so.

Sorry, and your lifestyle may vary, but your EV sounds like a massive burden.

Simon
Reply to  May Contain Traces of Seafood
January 12, 2023 10:56 pm

“So 10 minutes a month.
You need to show to me that it takes you less than 20 second a day to plug and unplug your vehicle.”
I’ve never put a stop watch on it, but did tonight to check. 9 seconds dead.

You also need to show me that in the remaining 43000 or so minutes in a month you can jump into your vehicle with zero prior notice and start driving.”
My car has a range of 500km’s and I can honestly say I have never been restricted in driving anywhere. A burden it is not….

michael hart
January 12, 2023 7:18 am

“The numpties apparently have not realised that owners of petrol cars don’t only pay 20% VAT on petrol, but also swingeing fuel duties, which the aforesaid numpties will soon have to pay as well.”

The fossil fuel industry is taxed at every point, from beginning to end. Producer to consumer. Sometimes more than once. Up the ass.

It is/was a great source of revenue for the UK government. Back in the 80’s and 90’s even the BBC made programs about the “black gold” of North Sea Oil that propped-up the Thatcher Government in the hard recession and unemployment of the early 1980’s.

Where is the government going to get that revenue now?

Gunga Din
January 12, 2023 7:25 am

Maybe money grows on trees in Eco-Land!

It’s the unicorn fertilizer.

abolition man
Reply to  Gunga Din
January 12, 2023 9:25 am

I thought the unicorns just feed predominantly on money to produce more and higher quality flatulence! Isn’’t that why Ruinable Energy is so expensive?
Surely it couldn’t be wealthy conmen fleecing the gullible! Again!

MarkW
Reply to  Gunga Din
January 12, 2023 10:35 am

How do you fertilize a unicorn? And can it be discussed on a family friendly web site?

Gunga Din
Reply to  MarkW
January 12, 2023 1:23 pm

Promise it can sleep in a bed of leprechaun gold.
(Just don’t tell it that there is no end of the rainbow. That’s fairy tale.)

Tony_G
Reply to  MarkW
January 12, 2023 1:44 pm

Watch the closing credits of Deadpool, MarkW

DFJ150
January 12, 2023 8:14 am

Couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the elite’s plans to immobilize the population (high petrol prices, outlawing ICE engines, exorbitant electricity rates, “15 minute” cities, etc.)?

ResourceGuy
January 12, 2023 9:04 am

Ah yes, linear thinking strikes again.

ResourceGuy
January 12, 2023 10:10 am

LOL, the government’s “ambition” is high tax rates and revenue.

JamesB_684
January 12, 2023 12:40 pm

The real goal is not replacing ICE vehicles with EVs. The real goal is forcing the hoi polloi out of private vehicles entirely, due to the exorbitant cost of the EVs + charging stations + charging costs. That this will collapse the economy for everyone, including the rich virtue signalers, is not considered seriously. Consequences are for other people to deal with, not the politicians.

observa
January 13, 2023 2:16 am

Pop goes the car finance market and with it expensive EVs in particular
https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/news/elon-musk-and-others-warn-of-potential-auto-loan-crisis-ahead/ar-AA16garY

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