Finding the Origins of Supermassive Black Holes

From NASA

Astronomers have identified a rapidly growing black hole in the early universe that is considered a crucial “missing link” between young star-forming galaxies and the first supermassive black holes, using data from the Hubble Space Telescope to make this discovery.

This artist’s impression is of a supermassive black hole that is inside the dust-shrouded core of a vigorously star-forming “starburst” galaxy. It will eventually become an extremely bright quasar once the dust is gone. Discovered in a Hubble deep-sky survey, the dusty black hole dates back to only 750 million years after the Big Bang.

Image Credit: NASA, ESA, N. Bartmann Last Updated: Apr 14, 2022 Editor: Yvette Smith

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Michael ElliottMichael Elliott
April 15, 2022 2:50 am

Interesting, re the reference to the “Big Bang”.

I much prefer Hoyles “”Steady State
“” theory. A far more logical explanation for the Cosmos.

Michael VK5ELL

Leo Smith
Reply to  Michael ElliottMichael Elliott
April 15, 2022 3:54 am

A logical universe would be illogical

William Astley
Reply to  Michael ElliottMichael Elliott
April 15, 2022 2:41 pm

I totally agree. There are now more than 50 observational paradoxes and one hard observational paradox (in peer reviewed papers complete with detailed summaries) any one of which disproves the theory that all of the atoms in the universe were created 13.7 billion years ago.
 
The Big Bang should have failed when the detailed astronomical observations proved that the universe is ‘flat’. The discovery that the universe is flat required the creation of new physics. Inflation physics to keep the Big Bang theory alive.
 
Inflation ‘physics’ requires the existence of a new ‘field’ (that does not exist in our physics). The new magic field is capable of expanding space. Expanding space in the inflation theory means moving all of the atoms, in the universe, apart at 100,000 times faster than the speed of light for a short period. The inflation field after the faster than light expansion, stops expanding space. At that special point in time, all of the atoms in the universe stop moving apart from each other. This special space expanding field expands space in a scalar manner. That means it expands space regardless of the amount of matter/atoms and regardless of the density of the atoms in regions of space. This special requirement is avoid over expanding or over expanding regions of the new universe because density differences.

This ability to expand space is necessary because the atoms need to be moved apart without changing the inertial energy of the expanding atoms. The inflation concept must only happen once. If it happened again … The sun and the earth would suddenly be separated by a vast distance. The inflation theory is kind of vague about the details of the expansion. It must be correct they say or else the Big Bang theory could not exist.

If the Big Bang event created all of the atoms in the Universe 13.7 billion years ago…. Those created atoms could:

1) Expand faster and faster for every: Open Universe
2) Expand and then collapse: Close Universe
3) Expansion energy is exactly match by the total universe mass in such a way that the universe is flat.
 
The Standard Big Bang theory cannot explain a flat Universe. A flat universe is exactly what a so-called Steady State universe would look like.

Inflation has been theoretically proved to not be possible (see link that discusses the death of inflation). If inflation did happen, quantum theory shows the same conditions happen again and again. If inflation happened again there would be no earth and sun. We could not exist.  
 
http://physics.princeton.edu/~cosmo/sciam/

Phineas
Reply to  William Astley
April 15, 2022 3:25 pm

Thanks Astley. The theory of lumetic decay of light easily disposes of the so-called red shift. Light traveling through space loses energy in quanta and drops to predictable lower frequencies. The predicted spectrum resulting from lumetic decay matches the observed spectrum right down to the cosmic microwave background. The graph overlay is astounding. Galaxies further away are not receding faster, the light from them has simply lost more energy over the greater distance.
Further, energy is being converted back into matter in black holes and ejected. Light cannot escape but matter can. .

Reply to  William Astley
April 15, 2022 11:55 pm

This ability to expand space is necessary because the atoms need to be moved apart …”

What atoms?
Inflation happened way before there were atoms.
Inflation happened at 1E-36 – 1E-32 seconds.
Ionized atomic nuclei of hydrogen and helium would not appear until about 3 minutes.
And neutral atoms would need to wait till 300k-500k years.

RobR
Reply to  William Astley
April 16, 2022 7:27 pm

Thanks for the kowledge. Alas, I fear Biden has expanded inflation theory in a major way.

Reply to  Michael ElliottMichael Elliott
April 16, 2022 9:25 am

I don’t like an infinite universe
I believe in what we can see
One big bang, one spacetime, one universe, one standard model, one Calabi-Yau manifold, one God one faith, one baptism … o wait…

Vuk
April 15, 2022 4:20 am

the dusty black hole dates back to only 750 million years after the Big Bang.
“dusty black hole” is contradiction in terms ! !

fretslider
April 15, 2022 4:34 am

I have identified a rapidly growing black hole where all the unreliables subsidies are sucked in never to be seen again and it’s only 5 miles down the road!

Old Man Winter
Reply to  fretslider
April 15, 2022 5:54 am

Maybe that’s where Trenberth’s missing heat is, too!!! 😮 😉

fretslider
Reply to  Old Man Winter
April 15, 2022 5:58 am

The exact location is

SW1A 1AA

JeffC
Reply to  fretslider
April 15, 2022 7:06 am

Talking of five miles down the road, Fred Hoyle was born and went to school about 5 miles down the road from where I live. Clever chap.

Reply to  JeffC
April 15, 2022 11:57 pm

Hoyle’s belief in an infinite universe was religious in origin, stemming from his belief in Hindu pantheism. It’s bad and discredited physics.

goracle
April 15, 2022 4:55 am

cough… cough… bull****…. cough…cough

Reply to  goracle
April 15, 2022 11:58 pm

Had a covid test?

Old Cocky
Reply to  Phil Salmon
April 16, 2022 1:36 am

I misread that as a bovid test.

Tom Abbott
April 15, 2022 5:11 am

They are saying they have spotted a supermassive black hole that has formed 750 million years after the Big Bang, so this black hole must have formed in a manner other than by slowly eating stars and gas in its vicinity. It would take much longer than 750 million years for a supermassive black hole to form eating just a few stars at a time.

I believe the thinking is that the early, supermassive black holes collapsed directly from the gas and dust of the early universe.

commieBob
April 15, 2022 5:28 am

I just watched a conversation between Jordan Peterson and Roger Penrose. In the last few minutes starting around 1:34:30, Penrose discusses black holes. He discusses how black holes evaporate and eventually become large warm spots that have been detected, at the same places, in the data from two different satellites.

So, there is a model of black holes, and there is a prediction, based on that model, that something will be found, and that thing is found. Hmmm …

John Bell
April 15, 2022 5:51 am

What was before the Big Bang? The Big unbanged banger, I guess. 🙂

Old Man Winter
Reply to  John Bell
April 15, 2022 5:57 am

That sounds like a plot for either a Western or a “hot & spicy” movie! 😮 😉

fretslider
Reply to  John Bell
April 15, 2022 6:21 am

A pork sausage. (banger)?

Slowroll
Reply to  John Bell
April 15, 2022 10:02 am

In the beginning, there was nothing, then it exploded…

Randy
Reply to  John Bell
April 15, 2022 3:22 pm

Perhaps the universe is just one of those things that ‘happens’ from time to time. (I don’t know which astrophysicist is responsible for this quip, but I like the irony of it)

Flash Chemtrail
April 15, 2022 6:56 am

When do we get to see a photo of this black hole?

JeffC
Reply to  Flash Chemtrail
April 15, 2022 7:07 am

It’ll be a black and black photo!

Earthling2
April 15, 2022 7:49 am

In order for there to be a black hole, there must have been a super massive first generation early binary Neutron star that went bust, creating the massive black hole that could gorge on the left over dust in the accretion disk making it a super massive black hole. Although they say here once the dust is all consumed, then comes the quasar. How could the rest of the galaxy have then been formed if the dust was all consumed by the quasar? And then why does the quasar go lights out, but still there is material to create the rest of the new galaxy to come? Maybe, maybe not.

While I am fascinated with astronomy, sometimes the speculation of the scientific discipline to make pronouncements on how things are, including artists’s impressions, remind me of the Hairy Krishna’s or the JW’s religious experiences, in vivid magazine color. It doesn’t matter a lot, since it will only use up its share of research dollars and they can speculate about what’s what until the cows come home. Maybe it’s true, maybe it isn’t, but it doesn’t affect our everyday life if they are wrong.

However, when translated to the real world, the CAGW’ers use the very same ‘scientific’ speculation about climate, but may be dooming the human race to misery because of ill thought out climate theories and all the resulting stupidity that comes from everything being seen through that same hubristic ‘scientific’ lens. And then comes all the crazy absurdities that academia, media and politicians will make everyone endure from that. The ‘climate emergency’.

Science can be as dangerous or as enlightening as religion, but we have to learn to distinguish between to two. Faith in CAGW is not science.

Last edited 1 month ago by Earthling2
Moderately Cross of East Anglia
April 15, 2022 9:58 am

Not so much early universe then, more giant Swiss cheese full of very big holes – are we living in a giant sponge ?

Andy Pattullo
April 15, 2022 10:28 am

In truth, someone at NASA spilt their caramel macchiato on the control board and inadvertently aimed Hubble at the White House.

Mr. Lee
April 15, 2022 11:33 am

I suppose they exist. d

Last edited 1 month ago by Mr. Lee
Gary Pearse
April 15, 2022 1:06 pm

“Astronomers have identified a rapidly growing black hole in the early universe …. using data from the Hubble Space Telescope to make this (!)discovery(!).”

Really! Cosmologists have been inspired by doctrinaire climate scientists. They have a scintilla of data from a hundredth of a pixel in the universe from which they spin and conjure a rich tapestry (the discovery). I wonder if Josh could make “an artists impression” of the field of view the astronomers actually saw. Here’s a template to get him started: ◯

Frank from NoVA
April 15, 2022 1:48 pm

‘This artist’s impression is of a supermassive black hole that is inside the dust-shrouded core of a vigorously star-forming “starburst” galaxy.’

Artist’s impression? What does the data show?

Earthling2
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
April 15, 2022 4:17 pm

1/100 of a pixel. LOL But I defer to those who obviously know more than me, whom only knows enough to be dangerous. Personally, I believe much of it is illusionary, as a few here have pointed out in obvious contradictions.

How do we reconcile between quantum physics and Einsteinian physics/general/special relativity and the standard model? When the SM doesn’t really explain gravity. But it does make me want to live another 25 years to find out what we don’t yet understand.

William Astley
April 15, 2022 3:28 pm

The hottest discovery in science is the discovery of a simple observation that disproves the big bang theory. Astronomers have discovered complexities in a class of objects, Globural Clusters, which cannot be explained/created by a collapsing cloud of gas and stellar physics.
 
Conventional stars form from collapsing gas clouds. The gas cloud before collapse is well mixed. All stars formed when the initial gas cloud collapses, therefore, have the same elemental (chemical) composition. Conventional stars when they form a collapsing gas cloud move apart due to the momentum they gain from the gas cloud. There are no stars in the region of space where cold gas clouds collapse.
 
Globural cluster ‘stars’ stay together in a tight group. A typical globural cluster has 100,000 to 1 million star like objects in it. The star density in a globural cluster is the same as in the center of a galaxy. Every galaxy has globural clusters in them. The number of globural clusters in a galaxy scales with the galaxy’s mass except the new small galaxies have 30 times more globural cluster and the strange Cd galaxy which there is only one of in every cluster of galaxies which also has 30 times more.

Observations with the Hubble telescope discovered (completely unexpected) that all globural clusters which are older than 2 billion years have two populations of stars in them. The second population is the majority. The elemental composition within a population is the same accounting for different elemental evolution due to star mass within a population. The second population of stars is enriched in some of the elements that are lighter than calcium. There are mathematical relationships and patterns in some of the elements that are enriched. The amount of iron in both populations is the same.
 
It is not possible to explain the second population based on nuclear synthesis. There is no possible initial elemental composition which could be evolved in young large stars to form the second population. And due to the mass balance problem… Only 10% to 15% of the initial stellar mass is available to from second generation stars. Also there is no physical explanation as to why gas would collapse to form a second generation of stars in tightly spaced stars.

The gas cloud origin cannot explain why the globural clusters are so tightly space and it cannot explain existence of the second generation of star or the second generation star element composition.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1712.01286.pdf
 
 
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1510.01330.pdf
 
A critical assessment of models for the origin of multiple populations in globular clusters

April 16, 2022 12:10 am

Supermassive black holes are sloppy eaters.
They are meant to devour the mass that falls into them.
But the intense radiation emissions propagating axially from the accretion disc carry away some of that infalling matter as radiation energy.
Matter in the accretion disc of a supermassive black hole is accelerated to near light speed and raised to insanely high temperatures.
Under these conditions a kind of nuclear reaction converts the matter to energy at a rate of something like 20-30%
This is huge, it compares to only 0.1% mass loss in nuclear fission and 0.6% in fusion.

This means that ~20 percent of the matter supposedly consumed in a SMBH doesn’t go into the hole, instead it gets emitted in the axial radiation emissions (across the spectrum including high energy gamma rays).

If we could recreate conditions in a SMBH accretion disc it would be the perfect energy source.

TallDave
April 17, 2022 5:10 pm

 Discovered in a Hubble deep-sky survey, the dusty black hole dates back to only 750 million years after the Big Bang.

lol it’s becoming obvious the primordial black holes not only formed supermassives in the pre-baryonic era but probably also account for dark matter per Jedamzik

watch Webb will find even younger ones

true black hole accretion seems logically impossible since nothing can cross an event horizon in finite time, but presumably the sticky zone near the “edge” can trap particles and an outside observer would see an expanding event horizon

it’s been said an observer could cross a very large black hole’s event horizon (with minimal tidal effects due to size) and never notice anything unusual in proper (the observer’s) time but this seems flawed… first the infalling blueshifts would reach gamma-ray intensity then (much) later the outgoing Hawking radiation would evaporate the mass of the black hole as you approach, presumably starting at the edges such that you never cross in proper time either

Last edited 1 month ago by TallDave
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