Reposted from the MANHATTAN CONTRARIAN
At this current crazy moment, most of the “Western” world (Europe, the U.S., Canada, Australia) is hell bent on achieving a “net zero” energy system. As I understand this concept, it means that, within two or three decades, all electricity production will be converted from the current mostly-fossil-fuel generation mix to almost entirely wind, solar and storage. On top of that, all or nearly all energy consumption that is not currently electricity (e.g., transportation, industry, heat, agriculture) must be converted to electricity, so that the energy for these things can also be supplied solely by the wind, sun, and batteries. Since electricity is currently only about a quarter of final energy consumption, that means that we are soon to have an all-electric energy generation and consumption system producing around four times the output of our current electricity system, all from wind and solar, backed up as necessary only by batteries or other storage.
A reasonable question is, has anybody thought to construct a small-to-moderate scale pilot project to demonstrate that this is feasible? Before embarking on “net zero” for a billion people, how about trying it out in a place with, say, 10,000, or 50,000, or 100,000 people. See if it can actually work, and how much it will cost. Then, if it works at reasonable cost, start expanding it.
As far as I can determine, that has never been done anywhere. However, there is something somewhat close. An island called El Hierro, which is one of the Canary Islands and is part of Spain, embarked more than a decade ago on constructing an electricity system consisting only of wind turbines and a pumped-storage water reservoir. El Hierro has a population of about 11,000. It is a very mountainous volcanic island, so it provided a fortuitous location for construction of a large pumped-storage hydro project, with an upper reservoir in an old volcanic crater right up a near-cliff from a lower reservoir just above sea level. The difference in elevation of the two reservoirs is about 660 meters, or more than 2000 feet. Here is a picture of the upper reservoir, looking down to the ocean, to give you an idea of just how favorable a location for pumped-storage hydro this is:
The El Hierro wind/storage system began operations in 2015. How has it done? I would say that it is at best a huge disappointment, really bordering on disaster. It has never come close to realizing the dream of 100% wind/storage electricity for El Hierro, instead averaging 50% or less when averaged over a full year (although it has had some substantial periods over 50%). Moreover, since only about one-quarter of El HIerro’s final energy consumption is electricity, the project has replaced barely 10% of El Hierro’s fossil fuel consumption.
Here is the website of the company that runs the wind/hydro system, Gorona del Viento. Get ready for some excited happy talk:
A wind farm produces energy which is directed into the Island’s electricity grid to satisfy the population’s demand for electricity. The surplus energy that is not consumed directly by the Island’s inhabitants is used to pump water between two reservoirs set at different altitudes. During times of wind shortage, the water stored in the Upper Reservoir is discharged into the Lower Reservoir, where the Wind-Pumped Hydro Power Station is, to generate electricity from its turbines. . . . The diesel-engine-powered Power Station only comes into operation in exceptional circumstances when there is neither sufficient wind or water to produce the energy to meet demand.
Over at the page for production statistics, it’s still more excitement about tons of carbon emissions avoided (15,484 in 2020!) and hours of 100% renewable generation (1293 in 2020!). I think that they’re hoping you don’t know that there are 8784 hours in a 366 day year like 2020.
But how about some real information on how much of the island’s electricity, and of its final energy consumption, this system is able to generate? Follow links on that page for production statistics, and you will find that the system produced some 56% of the electricity for El Hierro in 2018, 54% in 2019, and 42% for 2020. No figures are yet provided for 2021. At least for the last three years of reported data, things seem to be going quite rapidly in the wrong direction. I suspect that that’s not what you had in mind when you read that the diesel generators only come into operation in “exceptional circumstances” when wind generation is low. And with electricity constituting only about 25% of El Hierro’s final energy consumption, the reported generation statistics would mean that the percent of final energy consumption from the wind/storage facility ran about 14% in 2018, 13.5% in 2019, and barely 10% in 2020.
So why don’t they just build the system a little bigger? After all, if this system can provide around 50% +/- of El Hierro’s electricity, can’t you just double it in size to get to 100%? The answer is, absolutely not. The 50% can be achieved only with those diesel generators always present to provide full backup when needed. Without that, you need massively more storage to get you through what could be weeks of wind drought, let alone through wind seasonality that means that you likely need 30 days’ or more full storage. Get out your spreadsheet to figure out how much.
Roger Andrews did the calculation for El Hierro in a January 2018 post on the Energy Matters website. His conclusion: El Hierro would need a pumped-storage reservoir some 40 times the size of the one it had built in order to get rid of the diesel backup. Andrews provides plenty of information as to the basis of his calculations and his assumptions, so feel free to take another crack at his calculations with better assumptions. But unfortunately, his main assumption is that the pattern of wind intermittency for any given year will be just as sporadic as it was for 2017.
Then take a look at the picture and see if you can figure out where or how El Hierro is going to build that 40 times bigger reservoir. Time to look into a few billions of dollars worth of lithium ion batteries — for 11,000 people.
And of course, for those of us here in the rest of the world, we don’t have massive volcanic craters sitting 2000 feet right up a cliff from the sea. For us, it’s batteries or nothing. Or maybe just stick with the fossil fuels for now.
So the closest thing we have to a “demonstration project” of the fully wind/storage electricity has come up woefully short, and really has only proved that the whole concept will necessarily fail on the necessity of far more storage than is remotely practical or affordable.
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What we’re counting on: “then a miracle occurs”.
People look at the way computers have advanced and think that’s the way all technology works. Bill Gates really did compare the technological development of computers with that of automobiles. His point is that the technological development of computers was DIFFERENT.
People turned Gates’ remarks into a joke.
In light of the above, you’d think folks would be more savvy about the way technology develops but no …
Unfortunately I don’t recall what they were, but I saw a presentation by a guy who designs batteries, and he mentioned there are at least two laws of physics standing in the way of the quantum leap in battery technology the alarmists assure us is coming any day now.
His prediction was only marginal gains for the next 20-50 years.
Seems like they’ve already had a proof of concept trial for Wind/Solar/Battery system and had discovered that it doesn’t work without…
…Massive Government Subsidies
…Reliable Back-up of Fossil Generation
…During Cold Still Winter Nights
…Without inter-tie access to reliable generation from other States/Countries
¥ind, $olar and €atteries cost lots of upfront ¥$€£¢ and spend too much idle time being paid when they do and paid when they don’t produce energy.
I’d prefer that my car not lock up and crash so often.
It’s ok – just turn it off (completely), wait 10 seconds, and reboot.
You joke.
How about the Toyota solution to uncontrollable acceleration … take your foot off the brake. link
Why didn’t people simply pop the transmission into neutral, coast to a stop and then turn off the engine? Or ride the brakes for a minute until a safe place to pull over is found?
I don’t know. There are the 911 calls of the people it happened to but I’m not willing to listen to them again.
It shouldn’t have happened but it did … a bunch of times. link
Loren,
I you talking about mickey mouse skalectric pretend cars, there is an easy solution – abandon it on the roadside and get a reliable 10 year old diesel
Imagine you are merrily driving down the highway, suddenly your windows turn opaque blue and all controls fail. Thank goodness Bill Gates has moved on to vaccine and food production. What could possibly go wrong with those?
I had a Dodge Caravan with a minor slip in the transmission. If I accelerated to quickly it would sometimes drop in to limp mode. I actually drove it for two years by dropping in to neutral turning it off and back on drop back in drive and go on my way.
Your windscreen would go blue or black if Bill Gates windows was attached , just send $150 and they will solve the problem .
No, no….The models have been quite clear that none of these points is at all close to critical. All this model generated data thoroughly supports this program and you’re just clearly wrong. Oh…and racist…likely fascist as well…think of the children!
I agree completely. You can’t argue with the results of a pogrom. Sorry, program. We need to look forward to the glorious day when the patriarch is destroyed and there are no more male and female power plugs. Just female, neutered, and female assisted for three-pronged.
Sounds like you are paraphrasing Justin Trudeau.
>>Sounds like you are paraphrasing Justin Trudeau.<< speaking of neutered
How About A Pilot Project To Demonstrate The Feasibility Of Fully Wind/Solar/Battery Electricity Generation?
i think this is a great idea and perhaps the greatest experiment humans could ever conduct. just spitballing here but to do the experiment correctly you would need at least two locations. one in the north, say somewhere above the 45 parallel. one in the equatorial reign. both with zero fossil backup. one hundred percent wind, solar, battery. and the only wood burned must be grown with in the zone of the experiment. damn good idea. i want to help build it.
I nominate Martha’s Vineyard for the northern location. The locals just love the idea of renewables, or so it would seem based on their voting preferences.
yes, we can name it the barry experiment, where the results are known befor the experiment is conducted.
Didn’t Senator Kennedy oppose off shore windmills on MV some time before he passed away?
And that may or may not be why he passed.
Excellent idea!
Great idea, give them a year to build out then cut the power line from the mainland.
Sink or swim, since, you know islands can sink, or flip over according to Dem Rep Jefferson.
Add Delaware and DC
To do it right we should guarantee no outside intervention. The location should be sealed in some way for 10 years, after which we will judge the success of the project by counting the number of people remaining in the experiment area.
Exactly. The “real” CO2 emissions of a realistic test-case would include the power requirements including manufacturing all the sun-plates, pinwheels, batteries, pumped-storage equipment, etc on the island itself. Even cars, buildings, food-production — everything in fact.
yes, i like it.
Construction camps in remote locations are “pilot systems” that have already been built many times. No matter that you have been asked to check out green options by a virtue signalling public liason officer, PLO, you always end up with a diesel genset to run the kitchen and utilities, while solar panels and batteries are suitable to run the electric fence to keep bears out. You put a couple of PV solar panels on the satellite tower to humor the PLO…. Budget wise, it always works out that solar panels and batteries are 4 times as expensive to theoretically do the job. And you still have to have a genset as backup…..because that’s more economical than helicoptering everyone out to civilization if you happen to have 3 cloudy, windless weeks in mid January….So 100% standby gensets and a year’s supply of diesel is least risk and half the cost.
Below.
” How About A Pilot Project To Demonstrate The Feasibility Of Fully Wind/Solar/Battery Electricity Generation? ”
Something kind of an “ecological farm” for the school children? I.e., something that will illustrate how we can go without agriculture and agronomy in the whole world by not being able to provide enough food for the students?
“has anybody thought to construct a small-to-moderate scale pilot project to demonstrate that this is feasible?”
They have.
I think they call it Germany.
How is it doing? Well …. there is this gas pipeline to Russia …
Winter is a bitch isn’t it Chancellor?
Joe, we built a pilot project here in far western Queensland at the off-grid town of Windorah in 2008 at a cost of over $100,000 per house.
It previously had a diesel generator that used 100,000 litres of diesel fuel per year which was kept for back-up.
I have never been able to find a cost/benefits study but I rang the Mayor a while back and asked him how much diesel the town still uses and he said; “about 100,000 litres per year”.
IOW, more than 100% useless as it still costs a bundle to run and maintain.
Doesn’t that South Australia region that went solar and battery qualify as a demonstration project?
And that is with an unusually favorable pumped storage location?
It isn’t only very favourable for pumped storage. The Canary Islands sit in the Trade Winds zone. If the wind isn’t reliable enough there, it won’t be reliable enough anywhere.
Are they still running diesel generators on the Canary Islands?
Yes. Both the Canaries and the Azores have a range of generating sources, including geothermal, fuel oil/No 6 oil thermal, diesel, wind and solar. Different mixes on different islands.
I wonder who paid for all the wind and solar attempts…it has been a boondoggle
I was wondering why aren’t using any solar? Not in the budget?
Doesn’t fit the demand profile. Spaniards take siestas. Demand is very much after dark. No extensive need for aircon thanks to being in mid ocean. There is of course a certain amount of rooftop solar already. Live data here
https://demanda.ree.es/visiona/canarias/el_hierro/total
You would think that anything that generates extra power would be worthwhile. Help to keep that pump storage full.
On the other hand it is an island and land surface is at a premium.
No they don’t – they sit under the Azores High almost constantly – that’s why The Canaries are such a great all-year round holiday destination ##
And good for growing tomatoes.
Sometimes, like it did earlier this week and because it is sooooo huuuuuge, the Azores High becalmed most of Europe.
Crazy Climate Change or what – normally it does that in the summer.
Maybe there is ‘some‘ wind at 2,000ft above sea-level but I cannot see it being much and that is why the experiment failed.
How many solar panels did they use, they’d get stacks more energy and much lower maintenance costs
## Did they factor in the jet fuel used to get the holiday-makers in and out – or least out of the place?
The main problem really was that the storage was too small, constrained by the small lower reservoir. In the end they largely gave up trying to use it as storage at all, simply using one penstock and turbine to pump to the higher reservoir, and letting the water flow back downhill again in the other one without turning a turbine much of the time. It’s instructive to page through a day at a time using the arrows on the date here:
https://demanda.ree.es/visiona/canarias/el_hierro/acumulada/2022-01-20
The next few days are windless, with total reliance on diesel, but late on the 25th we reach a point where wind (eolica) produces more than demand, and pumping is used as the main balancing system. Mouseover the charts to read off the values: you will see that diesel is still there to aid with inertia throughout. There is almost no use of hydro to provide positive generation.
This satellite map shows the twin penstocks going into the hydro plant at the edge of the lower reservoir.
https://goo.gl/maps/qY7BXaWrVvDRKoWs7
Zoom out to see its location, and the upper reservoir to the NW.
Not entirely without problems. They had leakage in the upper reservoir, which as you can see from the photo is lined. The lower reservoir is really too small, almost at sea level below a cliff. They refrained from using the sea and salt water for the system, which would have solved the lower reservoir at the expense of corrosion risk, and salting the land if the upper reservoir or penstock leaked. These days the pumped storage system operates mainly as grid stabilisation, flexing the amount of pumping or generation with gusts in the wind.
I think this story illustrates the hardest part to grasp about renewables and storage – on this small island, going from 50% electricity generation with renewables to 100% generation, using the present pump storage system, requires 40 times, not 2 times, the amount of present storage.
I imagine most of the public, to the extent they think of it at all, assume that going to net zero is a simple step of dividing electric generation needed by nameplate capacities of existing wind turbines and solar panels and putting up the resulting number of turbines and panels, with a couple batteries thrown in here and there. That’s going to be a hard impression to change.
System Design appears to be a lost art.
Thinking seems to be a lost art.
Adding existing numbers appears to be a lost art
I suspect opinions will start to change when blackouts start becoming a frequent occurrence.
No, the blackouts will be blamed on the power companies. The Climate Scientists have so warped physics that no one will believe that the cause of the blackouts is rooted in physics.
We have had around 12 blackouts blackouts and numerous brownouts since our local 87MW industrial solar installation was commissioned in 2019. We have also lost hundreds of dollars worth of equipment and as our house was completed in that same year, it was all new. Just as an aside, we had to pay $30,000 for a transformer, poles and wiring to be able to connect to the grid. And a further slap in the face is that our water pumps are electric. When the power goes out so does our water.
The last time, I phoned our electricity supplier to find out why the power was out…again. She blamed it on a goanna!
what is your location?
We’re in Central West, NSW Australia. Our region has been declared a Renewable Energy Zone. The existing industrial solar is only the beginning, a 500MW solar works with 200MW BESS on 17 sq km of land was recently approved. A mega project of 63, 7MW wind turbines each at 280m high and a neighbouring 500MW solar works. These sites will each have backup batteries, 400MW and 500MW respectively. The site will also have its own internal transmission lines at 11 kilometres long plus a new substation. All this only eight kilometres from our town. This project alone will take up 93 sq km of prime agricultural land. There is more in the pipeline, we are up to a potential 200 sq km so far.
We moved here because the area is teeming with native wildlife. These animals will be driven out, bulldozed over and chopped up ny turbines. The landscape will never be the same. Anthropogenic CO2 destroying the world is total BS, the environmental damage done globally by the roll-out of renewables is very real!
Excellent idea! Write your Senators and recommend that a pilot project, maybe St Thomas or some other island should be put on a 100% renewable fast track so that we know the unexpected problems in making the conversion. After say, January 31, 2025, no fossil fuel imports to the pilot project island! No plastic, no gasoline, no sail cloth other than canvas or cotton, etc. Bio fuels, but only at 100% bio, none of this 85/15 mostly fossil fuel stuff. I bet that islands will be scrambling to be the demo project!
I am writing my Senators today!
Now that is a really bad idea.
Why on Earth are you proposing to destroy St. Thomas? The place is not exactly a tropical Eden, but it is close. What ever did the people of St. Thomas do to you for you to retaliate in such a hateful, spiteful way?
As a alternative, I would suggest conducting the experiment in an area where the people strongly support the notion of 100% renewables. An obvious location is almost any urban area in California. The benefits are obvious.
1) The people will support it.
2) The people who vote for this stuff will “enjoy” the consequences of the policies they advocate for.
Trial location B: Martha’s Vineyard, MA. Everybody there is liberal to hard-liberal. Most of the property owners are uber-liberal and trendy to the point of being “woke”. This is where President Obama bought his mansion, left wing as you get.
Let them try it out.
Martha’s Vineyard is a good tradeoff for St Thomas. This has to be done on an island, with no undersea cable to the mainland for backup power. I want a demo that is free of cheating. The only problem with MV is that some people will bring propane or other fuels by ferry or boat. I proposed St Thomas, a very nice place, as it may be harder to cheat there than say a city in California.
I suggest using Martha’s Vineyard using extensive security measures to avoid cheating – for science. Since Obama and other celebrities are there, extra security measures should be easily accepted.
If there are objections, complaints can be registered at the nearest DNC headquarters where their names will be logged and they will be admonished on every social media platform with possible fines involved.
Re: Martha’s Vineyard
Bravo! Excellent idea !!
Well look at it this way – if you were the project manager or administrator, where would you like to be? St. Thomas sounds like a no brainer.
Your biggest concern would be that the ice making machines had enough electricity and the beer stayed cold in the coolers.
That is why I would give it 2 weeks or less on St Thomas
I am all for the concept of placing it on The Vineyard (it is historic but not very picturesque nor tropical). However, the highest point on the island is only 280 ft ASL, and not that big. And interestingly, the nicer mansions are on Katama Bay on the eastern side while the heights are in the northwestern end.
Tidal projects would fare better, and they are truly abysmal.
You can’t build pumped storage in the U.S. anymore. Eagle’s Crest in CA is the prime example of the money from the crony battery capitalists preventing rational alternatives to battery storage.
G’Day Dave,
“Eagle’s Crest in CA is the prime example of the money…”
You got that right.
https://www.eaglecrestmountain.com
In fact, the Eagle Crest Mountain Estate is set within the last standing southern grove of Redwoods in California, replete with fascinating year-round wildlife and seasonal waterfalls. Oak Glen is amongst the most secluded yet convenient cities in Southern California which, of course, attracts A-list Angelenos to revel in lush, intimate privacy.
An obvious location is almost any urban area in California.
Catalina, perhaps? Not so urban, but if they can’t do Catalina at 100% they can’t do anywhere.
Use Big Bear Lake to generate hydro once again. But, what to do when nature fills it for you? Where do you store your excess capacity when your batteries are full? And BTW wouldn’t it be prudent to shunt or drain stored capacity when nature is about to inundate your plans? I don’t have much faith in CA state employees to manage these.
OK. So a 40x bigger reservoir – but how many more wind turbines to fill that larger reservoir? (Asking for a friend)
Not only that, how much energy does it cost to create such a resevoir and the wind mills? You need to consider the complete lifecycle cost. And do not forget about the cost of maintenance.
Try looking at the answers I found for Thursday Island in the Torres Strait.
https://euanmearns.com/wind-and-solar-on-thursday-island/
I’m sure that ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, NPR, The NewYork Times, Washington Post, National Geographic, Scientific America etc. will pick up on this report and in short order wheels will come off the whole Global Warming Climate Crisis band wagon and we will all live happily ever after.
I’ll be patiently waiting…
Needs music:
There are some people who have gone totally “off grid”. I don’t know if any have been successful with just solar and wind.
Most cases I’ve read about, the owners also had a backup generator and/or or wood for additional heat or, in one case, a steam powered generator that would burn about anything.
I’m just dredging my memory of the cases I’ve read about, but I think all of these off-grid people do have an ICV of some sort to haul themselves and materials to their abodes in the boonies.
There must be a few cases where someone was 100% successful at a zero-carbon setup. But I don’t think they are likely to be living to the same standards that we currently enjoy.
I don’t think there’s even a single household proof-of-concept example of zero-carbon living that maintains modern urban living standards. Sacrifices must be made.
People who want zero-carbon are just mindlessly repeating a catchphrase from the narrative. I don’t think they know what it really entails. There are some off-gridders that do know, though.
I don’t think there is any such case of 100% off the grid because all the materials needed have to come from the grid.
Now, if you are talking about regressing and living rough in a hovel or a cave, there are surely some of those, but that isn’t modern living, and no thank you from me.
👍👍
That’s what I was getting at in my last paragraph, Pat. The educated-but-brainless-and-clueless believe, “Oh, nothing will change except everything will be powered by solar and wind.”
Bzzzzztt!! Wrong. Stake out your cave early, folks.
Some time ago, maybe 25 years now, I visited a guy in Door County, WI – 45 deg. North who was doing exactly that. On his tour of the place, the first thing he said was it was VERY expensive electricity.
Unlike the Klimit Krazies who want 100% electric – heat, hot water, cooking, clothes drying etc. anything like that, he used gas which as you know is being banned by various jurisdictions.
I came away with notion that a solar powered house is doable, but expensive, and perhaps affordable.
Go east to the other side of Lake Michigan. Solar is basically useless in the winter. The moisture coming off the lake keeps most of Michigan cloudy all winter.
i live in s.e.michigan, and you speak the truth.
The Scottish island of Eigg in the Inner Hebrides is sometimes claimed to be self sufficient 95% renewable. However this is being economical with the actuality. The system is connected to the UK grid and only has battery storage for 24 hours. Disconnect from the UK grid, which receives the excess from the island, and remove the 5% diesel and I suspect it would fail fairly quickly one a high pressure system arrived.
For those intersted you can read about it here
https://www.lifegate.com/eigg-scotland-renewable-energy-self-sufficiency
Just do part of the experiment – have the US Postal System go full EV by 2030. That means hot location, cold location, city location, rural location. Have them put in the charging stations in all of these locations. They don’t need to worry about backup power, but they also don’t get to use IC cars/trucks either.
Rather than the government forcing us plebes to perform this EV experiment let the government do the experiment and then calculate the cost.
Slow Joe Brandon is trying to convert the entire US federal government vehicle fleet to batteries-only, this was one of ex. orders signed early on. This would presumably include the USPS.
Not sure how that can be accomplished with an EO. Especially as that EO has caveats that like 50% of materials have to be American/union made and also final assembly.
Also USPS delivery vehicles can’t be just any old car it would have to be custom designed. I doubt the USPS could absorb such costs within their current budgets without having increased appropriations from Congress.
Since it requires a commitment to get one or more of the US manufacturers (Big 3 plus a unionized Tesla?) under contract to make such vehicles, this cannot be accomplished by simply asking dozen and dozens of agencies to make their own plans. It would have to be a concerted effort that is separately funded by congressional appropriations and oversight.
reguarding the usps, this could backfire, the mail may actually arrive on time.
Good grief. If they can’t make this work in the balmy Canary Islands, how is is expected to work in places where it gets cold and the heating demand is high?
Try central Florida, where temperature is predicted to get inro the 30’s two nights in a row, no hills worth mentioning, hardly any wind, have had several days of cloudiness, and are not used to this cold weather with highs at best in the 60’s.
What about Washington, DC? Not too large population, people with actual power live there and they would be more than willing to follow their decisions.
Lots of variables to take into consideration. In this experiment, an area with no “heavy” industries (heavy in the sense the need to move heavy loads, like mining, manufacturing, etc) will look more feasible than one with those industries. But we all consume stuff from those heavy industries. So are the carbon neutral regions condemned (economically, strategically) to rely on those area that have no restriction? Having other jurisdictions making the heavy stuff does not really change much, just moves where carbon is generated while making you poorer by reducing options.
How bout those millions of watts electric arc furnaces the scrap steel industry uses?
There are a number of small island systems. There’s another on another Atlantic island – Graciosa in the Azores. The project was beset with endless troubles, but eventually went live with a combination of wind, solar and battery to try to minimise diesel use. Statistics on output for Jan-Nov 21 are here,
https://www.eda.pt/Mediateca/Publicacoes/Producao/ProducaoConsumo/POEE%20novembro_2021.pdf
and show
Diesel 4.34GWh
Wind 7.08GWh
Solar 0.95GWh
for a 64.9% renewables outcome, but no mention of volumes spilled or curtailed or losses through the battery system. It’s another case that shows that getting beyond 2/3rds renewables is hard and expensive. The whole system has of course been heavily subsidised by the EU with large sums written off over procurement contracts that failed on top.
More on the project here
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/an-islands-path-to-100-renewables
The video is worth a gander, because it does discuss the limitations that intermittency causes. Wärtsila and all, you might say.
Simris was a Swedish example with batteries and solar/wind.
https://www.eon.se/en_US/om-e-on/local-energy-systems/live-from-simris
That sounds great for the consumers….they will buy ICE generators after the 2nd or 3rd bout of “load shedding“ cuz of battery cost and the amount if energy you can store in a couple of jerry cans…..but maybe that’s part of the agenda….
Why go small scale? The entire UK will be the experiment…Boris is all in…save the bears!
it’s sad to see how far the once Great Britain has fallen
Yea, UK! The world needs crash test dummies. Of course, the U.S. has one of those at the White House.
an actual crash test dummy in the white house would be an improvement.
Isn’t Germany doing that right now?
Nope, they are using solar and wind to fleece taxpayers.
Pellworm is a smal island in the Northsea they started a teststudy of islands autarky with wind, solar, some self produced gas, batteriees and smart meter.
Result, the grid connection to the mainland couldn’t be shut down, no new jobs could be created, they never reached autarky, it was, finally a total failour with a considerable lost of money too.
See an translated journalistic text about:
Germany is using France and Putin as their backup plan when the wind stops blowing.
It is clear that pumped storage requires the proper geography to be practical. At best, you need a mountain to put your upper reservoir on. People note that a mountain is not always available where pumped storage might otherwise be desirable.
Modern problems require modern solutions.
Large scale civil engineering comes to the rescue.
Over the course of the years, I have known many people who were excellent at creating mountains out of molehills. I always felt that these people would be better off if only their special skill could be put to productive use. Unfortunately, nobody knew what that productive use might be.
Now we know.
Round up some of these people and put them on the engineering team tasked with building the mountain. Provide some molehills as raw materials, and you should have the mountains you need in no time.
Easy.
you can use old coal mines for pumped storage – or air: expandable air storage at the bottom of lakes, cryo compression and release… fly wheels.
I urge the UK to put the griffter in charge of the Great Experiment…hehehehehe.
Start using your lukewarm breath to fill coal mines, so you have something important to do.
Fly wheels? We are supposed to spend all our time swatting flies?
The idea of using underground storage as the lower reservoir for pumped storage was discussed here:
http://euanmearns.com/flat-land-large-scale-electricity-storage-fles/
You will find that the economics look somewhat challenging. But it attracted comment from among others, Phil Chapman (former astronaut) and David Mackay (Chief Scientific Officer at DECC and author of SEWTHA). The Dutch project last surfaced in 2019, but it failed to attract funding.
What are countries supposed to do if they don’t have old coal mines or any lakes? And with all the extra, intense drought we are going to get from global warming the lakes will all be empty, anyway.
Another solution that won’t work for a problem that never existed.
With usual Griff logic you don’t even have to have the mines you could use the mines in another countries perhaps one you are almost at war with … what could possibly go wrong 😉
I see the Australian government stands ready to ship gas to Europe if Russia turns the gas off which I am really upset about … How do people learn lessons if you don’t make them face the consequences.
Griff,
that is exactly how Dinorwic (circa 2 Gwatts) pumped storage plant was built, except it is in an old Welsh slate mine.
But, and it’s a very big but it is not intended to make up for wind intermittency but for frequency control. Because it can start producing very quickly, (0 to 2 Gwatts in about 12 seconds I believe?) it can recover large losses of power from other sources or a sudden increase in demand, which allows the dispatchable generators to catch up and maintain balance. They are short duration plants.
That’s all that storage can be as the capacity and extra generation capcity to keep it charged is simply far too great to make up for wind’s intemittency. It’s a common misconception due to a lack of perspective as the the amount required.
are you proposing flooding coal mines with water? how will we be able to burn the coal if it is wet?
Ah, compressed air. That’s fail safe, and if it does fail, do not be close by. That why we use in compressible oil in pressurized hydraulic systems. Fail.
That’s very true Griff, old open pit Coal mines are excellent places to place pumped storage reservoirs so, to prepare for the Pumped Storage revolution, we should dig as many open pit Coal Mines as possible and extract the Coal filling them up
Have you ever been near an “old coal mine”????
I used to see quite a few as a kid in Wales,inc actually operating ones.
Do you know what happens to those holes in the ground when they shut?
Griff can’t his big twat mouth shut long enough to understand or visit a coal mining area!!!
The drifts collapse and/or fill with water, as some miners found out to their cost,when they accidentally breached one and DIED.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58585552
The first intelligent comment griff has ever made. It must be Friday night in Beijing and the spam checkers are off for the weekend. >> air: expandable air storage << Billions of latex party balloons puffing up industriously with all that leftover wind from the mills. Think how decorative! How festive!
Anyone with at least half a working brain cell knows that it doesn’t, and can’t possibly work. This of course automatically excludes Griff and his ilk.
I get my information from those working on large scale renewable systems and from the scientists supporting those endevours… I think those people probably know a lot more than I – and the average Watts commenter
So where’s that 100% renewable town then griff? Surely your scientists can point to dozens.
Griffter….you are Net Zero.
Such as these failing at Pellworm ? They know how to fail 😀
Your problem, griffter, is you swallow the dishonest hype from renewable energy shysters and dishonest claims of climate alarmists lock, stock, and barrel. To make things worse, you then repeat the dishonesty without critically examining it and then, in a final insult to your intelligence, when a commenter schools you on your ignorance/stupidity you ignore the realist’s compelling arguments and actual data.
Would be good for climate “science” too:
We failed
For ALMOST two years, we – the press and the population – have been almost hypnotically preoccupied with the authorities’ daily coronatal.
WE HAVE STARED at the oscillations of the number pendulum when it came to infected, hospitalized and died with corona. And we have been given the significance of the pendulum’s smallest movements laid out by experts, politicians and authorities, who have constantly warned us about the dormant corona monster under our beds. A monster just waiting for us to fall asleep so it can strike in the gloom and darkness of the night.
THE CONSTANT mental alertness has worn off tremendously on all of us. That is why we – the press – must also take stock of our own efforts. And we have failed.
Danish Ekstra Bladet
Griff’s problem is that he is a paid troll working for the CCP to disrupt intelligent discourse on WUWT.
So tell us about all of their great successes.
They are going to happen, there are just a few problems left to solve.
At least that’s what the ad men keep telling us.
So provide some links to these systems & said scientists, so everyone can read the data and draw our own conclusions. If you can’t/aren’t willing to do so, then once again you’ll simply be viewed as spouting unfounded nonsense.
So you admit that you’re a brainless parrot then (apologies to parrots). Got it. Unlike you, we actually want the truth instead of ideology.
Go on, griff, name a few. And do tell us the peer-reviewed literature they have published.
In other words, griff gets his information from the public relations departments of groups that are angling for even more Other People’s Money.
Yep he believes in the grifters and losers which is probably the motivation behind the name rather than Ed.
Well, you must be digging deep. I haven’t read about any large, scalable “renewable” systems that have been successfully put into operation. Nobody has successfully “killed the duck” so to speak- the sudden increase in demand just as the sun is starting to go down! The only approach remotely successful is when the windmills and solar cells are running under the direct control of the major generating supplier, usually one with 3-5 fossil fueled power plants.
Bet you have to shop around for those scientists for a few days
Griff,
that is the problem, you are talking to the wrong people, engineers design power systems, scientists talk about them and from what I have heard lack the very basics of how they work. They all concentrate on intermittency and completely miss the technical aspects of asynchronous non inertial generators such as renewables
Most of the engineering guys I knew that went on to advanced degrees and research were “idea” guys.
One of them gave me a design he made and asked if I could build it. I had to tell him that he needed a Ft. Knox for some of the parts and that others just were not made. 100 dB gain antennas that fit in a suitcase, lol.
Not a one of them had the slightest knowledge about the physical world.
>>Not a one of them had the slightest knowledge about the physical world.<< PHd syndrome. Show up, spout a bunch of clever sounding nonsense laden with buzzwords, and scoot before the project implodes.
Been there, seen that, Huh?
Oh griff, you get your information, such as it is, from that smelly thing that follows you around. You’ve never once published any data, done any calculations, or quoted anyone who even pretends to have done so. You’re the king of drive by shootings.
They don’t build a model project because this was never about a system that would work.
It was and is about a handful of billionaires getting guaranteed profits from government subsidized boondoggles. The green talk is just the smoke & mirrors that make the scam possible.
A trial project would expose the scam before all the profit can be extracted.
That’s right it won’t be tried for the same reason the Krazies never debate.
I vote for a location that voted to enact a climate emergency declaration, like Victoria BC.
2 years to be net zero.
And no FF powered cruise ships docking either, only rowboats.
That sounds like New Zealand.
Way to go Griff……
WSJ
European officials are scrambling to lock down energy supplies they would need to keep their economies churning if hostilities around Ukraine imperil natural gas piped from Russia, and have turned to the U.S. for help finding backup sources beyond Moscow’s control.
Now, U.S. and European officials are racing to find short-term alternatives to refill depleted reserves. More than two-dozen tankers are en route from the U.S. to Europe, lured by high gas prices in the EU. Another 33 tankers that haven’t yet confirmed their destinations are likely to mainly head there as well, according to oil analytics firm Vortexa Inc. “They would only cover a fraction” of Russian supplies if all were lost, said Clay Seigle, managing director at Vortexa.
Biden administration officials in recent days have held marathon video calls with officials around the world, trying to convince buyers in South Korea, Japan and other countries that have already paid for their imports to let the U.S. reroute those shipments to Europe, people involved in those talks said. European officials have traveled or planned trips to Doha and the Azeri capital, Baku, to try to line up supply.
If Biden and his ilk are involved you know it will get effd up.
Wasn’t it Obama that said something like: You can always count on Biden to eff thing up?
2020 I paid $0.95 a gallon for propane, November 2021 $2.25
Thank you Brandon.
Xiden is so demented he agreed with the guy that said “Let’s Go Brandon” on a televised phone call. The look on “doctor” Jill’s face was priceless! “Let’s Go Brandon” is not an encouragement for him to do more, ever though he may think it is.
“European officials have traveled or planned trips to Doha and the Azeri capital, Baku, to try to line up supply.” Maybe having to go hat in hand – will wake up Europeans, back to some common sense regarding energy- but I doubt it.
It certainly is!
and…..
WSJ
American exporters, while eager to help, have told U.S. officials during talks that they are already sending as many cargoes as they can to Europe without breaking long-term supply contracts with other customers. Europe is already receiving 70% of America’s LNG cargoes, according S&P Global Platts. Further discussions on European supply will take place during an EU-U.S. energy meeting on Feb. 7, European officials say.
Ideologue politicians create a crisis then try to (unsuccessfully) patch things up.
Yes Australia offered to save Europes butt by shipping gas but really europe as a whole needs to learn a lesson about energy security.
And a lesson about electing Communist politicians beholden to the Chinese and the Russians.
and their may be russian subs hunkered down in the north atlantic as we speak.
In Sweden EON push the pilot project in Simris as a huge green success as a small village “going off grid”. The problem was that they for years also showed actual produced power and used power. I guess they produced more than they used about 1 day every two weeks. Yet they continue to claim it as a sucess story and something to copy for the society. They do not show the failure in real time anymore, wounder why?
There is a Netflix video about this system on El Hierro. I’ll have to look it up. It wasn’t just about that island but I think about renewable energy on isolated areas- but I’m not sure. I recall the Netflix video being extremely optimistic about it.
The dashboard output for KIREIP, the project on King Island in the Bass Strait is working again. It can get mesmerising to watch as the system copes with huge swings in wind generation over a matter of a few seconds. Catch it at different times to see the solar contribution, and various modes and different weather conditions. They seem to switch between different ways of system balancing. Sometimes they just rely on the variable resistor and the flywheel. At others diesel takes the main strain. The battery chips in from time to time.
https://www.hydro.com.au/clean-energy/hybrid-energy-solutions/success-stories/king-island#