Guest post by Rud Istvan
Introduction
The Wuhan coronavirus potential pandemic has been much in the news recently. ctm discussed my doing an update to a rather long comment a few weeks ago. I first agreed but then demurred until now.
The reasons for agreeing were the numerous analogies (below) to climate change ‘science’ and ‘prognostications’—albeit on usefully shortened testable time frames like this year, not 2100. Examples below include assuming we know what we actually don’t based on models, and reporting worst case but unlikely scenarios as ‘likely” because ‘if it bleeds, it leads’.
First reason for originally demurring was that the factual situation was too fluid for rational qualitative analysis—alarmist rumors were flying all over, like from ‘reputable’ UK research groups who modeled an R0 near 4 (horrible, as defined below). Pure unsubstantiated alarmism, just like AGW prognostications.
Second reason (ironically), I came down with a wicked, likely coronavirus (less runny nose, more sore throat and cough) cold last week and am still recovering at day nine. So was too sick to even think about a guest post until yesterday evening day 8. Finishing this draft today merely proves that I am finally recovering on day 9 and that it probably was a human common cold corona virus since the typical rhino duration is ‘only’ 5 days, not 9-10.
Qualifications
None, if you are a CAGW ‘believer’. I am not a microbiologist, a virologist, or an infectious disease MD. A CAGW/skeptic ‘critique’ all too familiar at WUWT.
But, I served as CEO for a decade of a small private company that attempted (unsuccessfully for reasons beyond the scope of this post) to commercialize a novel topical antimicrobial PERSISTENT against all bacteria, all fungi, and many viruses including all colds, influenza and pinkeye. I had to teach myself the topic and its medical ramifications in order not to mislead my investors or misuse their several million dollars. Plus, we formed a pre-eminent science advisory board on infectious disease. Plus, in the 2009 swine flu scare, my corporate board forced interactions with NIH (Dr. Fauci), CDC, the FDA, and even the National Security Council (special briefing in the EOB at the WH, 2 hours, spooky)—because our FDA regulatory guy DIED in June 2009 from the swine flu contracted while on a cruise vacation to Mexico with his family (more below).
Those not interested in the background science sections can skip to the last sections of this longish comment, where the intervening basic science is applied to Wuhan coronavirus without further explanation.
Basic Virology
What follows perhaps oversimplifies an unavoidably complex topic, like sea level rise or atmospheric feedbacks to CO2 in climate science.
There are three main types of human infectious microorganisms: bacteria, fungi, and viruses. (I skip important complicating stuff like malaria or giardia.) Most human bacteria are helpful; the best example is the vast gut biome. In human disease some bacteria (typhoid, plague, tetanus, gangrene, sepsis, strep) and certain classes of fungi (candida yeasts) can cause serious disease, as do some human viruses (polio, smallpox, measles, yellow fever, Zika, Ebola).
There are two basic forms of bacteria (Prokaryotes and Archaea, neither having a genetic cell nucleus). Methanogens are exclusively Archaean; most methanotrophs are Prokaryotes. Membrane bound photosynthetic organelle containing cyanobacteria are the evolutionary transition from bacteria to all Eukaryotes (cells having a separate membrane bound genetic nucleus) like phytoplankton, fungi, and us. Both Prokaryote and Eukaryote single cell (and all higher) life forms have a basic thing in common—they can reproduce by themselves in an appropriate environment.
Viruses are none of the above. They are not ‘alive’; they are genetic parasites. They can only reproduce by infecting a living cell that can already reproduce itself. The ‘nonliving’ viral genetic machinery hijacks the reproductive machinery of a living host cell and uses it to replicate virions (individual virus particles) until the host cell ‘bursts’ and the new virions bud out in search of new hosts.
There are two basic virus forms, and two basic genetics.
Form
1. Viruses are either ‘naked’ or ‘enveloped’. A naked virus like cold causing rhino has just two structural components, an inner genetic whatever code (only the two basic types–DNA and RNA–are important for this comment) and an outer protective ‘capsid’ protective viral protein coat. An example is cold producing rhinovirus in the family picornavirus (which also includes polio).
2. Enveloped viruses like influenza and corona (Wuhan) include a third outer lipid membrane layer outside the capsid, studded with partly viral and partly host proteins acquired from the host cell at budding. These are used to infect the next host cell by binding to cell surface proteins. The classic example is influenza (internal genetic machinery A or B) designated HxNy for the flavor of the (H) hemagglutinin and (N) neuraminidase protein variants on the lipid membrane surface.
Conceptual images of both virion forms follow from CDC.
Naked Rhino Enveloped Influenza
![clip_image004[1] clip_image004[1]](https://i0.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/clip_image0041.png?resize=233%2C222&quality=75&ssl=1)
Genetic Type
The second major distinction is the basic genetics. Viral genetic machinery can be either RNA based or DNA based. There is a huge difference. All living cells (the viral hosts) have evolved DNA copy error machinery, but not RNA copy error machinery. That means RNA based viruses will accumulate enormous ‘transcription’ errors with each budding. As an actual virology estimate, a single rhinovirus infected mucosal cell might produce 100000 HRV virion copies before budding. But say 99% are defective unviable transcription errors. That math still says each mucosal cell infected by a single HRV virion will produce about 10 infective virions despite the severe RNA mutation problem. The practical clinical implication is that when you first ‘catch’ a HRV cold, the onset to clinical symptoms (runny nose) is very fast, usually less than 24 hours.
There is a related epidemiological consequence of great concern. It has been proven possible for a single mucosal cell to be infected ‘simultaneously’ by more than one viral seriotype. That is a simple math probability of virions and host cells Example: you have an easily transmissible ‘normal’ coronavirus cold already (defined below), go to Wuhan and also contract Wuhan. In your body those two different coronaviruses can now both be replicating in the same host cells, and because of RNA replication are indiscriminately exchanging genetic material. So you might end up with an attenuated virulence Wuhan, or a more virulent Wuhan—but most likely both.
The history of the 2009 Swine flu scare showed this. The novel new H1N1 seriotype started in Mexico, where my guy contracted his early fatal infection. For reasons explained below, flu is strongly seasonal. It was winter in South America, so the first hard hit country was Argentina. The mortality data were horrific (5.5%). But, this in hindsight meant the most virulent strains were already burning themselves out, since dead people cannot replicate virions. By the time swine flu reached the North American winter several months later, it was already significantly less virulent (1-2%, still very bad). What actually saved the situation was that based on Argentina, the world appropriately panicked, commandeered global conventional flu vaccine production, and crashed through a swine flu vaccine in just under 6 months at the expense of the normal next year stockpile.
Upper Respiratory Tract viral infections.
So-called URI’s have only two causes in humans: common colds, and influenza. Colds have three distinguishing symptoms–runny nose, sore throat, and cough—all caused not by the virus but by the immune system response to it. Influenza adds two more symptoms: fever and muscular ache. Physicians know this well, almost never test for the actual virus seriotype, and prescribe aspirin for flu but not colds. Much of what follows in this section is based on somewhat limited actual data, since there has been little clinical motivation to do extensive research. A climate analogy would be sea surface temperature and ocean heat content before ARGO. Are there estimates? Yes. Are there good estimates? No.
Common cold URI’s stem from three viral types: RNA rhinovirus (of which there are about 99 seriotypes but nobody knows for sure) causing about 75% of all common colds, RNA coronaviruses, for which (excluding SARS, MERS, and Wuhan) there are only 4 known human seriotypes causing about 20% of common colds, and DNA adenoviruses (about 60 human seriotypes, but including lots of non-cold symptom seriotypes like conjunctivitis (pink eye and pharyngoconjunctivitis) causing about 5% of common colds.
Another climate change related analogy. The internet (including Wikipedia) gets the previous paragraph’s facts mostly wrong. For example, Wiki distinguishes picornviruses from rhinoviruses without realizing the later is a subset of the former, so double counts.
Available data says rhinovirus seriotypes are ubiquitous but individually not terribly infective, coronavirus seriotypes are few but VERY infective, and adenoviruses are neither. This explains, given the previous RNA mutation problem, why China and US are undertaking strict Wuhan quarantine measures.
This also explains why there is no possibility of a common cold vaccine: too many viral targets. You catch a cold, you get temporary (RNA viruses are constantly mutating) immunity to that virus. You next cold is simply a different virus, which is why the average adult has 2-4 colds per year.
This also explains why adenovirus is not very infective. It is a DNA virus, so mutates slowly, so the immune memory is longer lasting. In fact, in 2011 the FDA approved (for military use only) a vaccine against adeno pharyngoconjuntivitis that was a big problem in basic training. (AKA PCF, or PC Fever, highly contagious, very debilitating, and unlike similar high fever strep throat untreatable with antibiotics.) In the first two years of mandatory PCF vaccine use, military PCF disease incidence reduced 100 fold.
These data expanded to influenza also explain why the annual flu shot is so hit or miss. The intent is to match the most common HxNy A or B types from end of this season for vaccination next season. That guess is never perfect. Plus, RNA based influenza mutates rapidly. So even IF the annual flu shot was a good initial match, the flu that spreads by the end of the vaccinated season will be the bits the guess missed—basic Darwinian evolution at work explaining the limited efficacy of the annual flu shot.
A clinical sidebar about URI’s. Both are worse in winter, because people are more indoors in closer infectious proximity. But colds have much less seasonality than flus. Summer colds are common. Summer flus aren’t.
There is a differential route of transmission explanation for this empirical observation. Colds are spread primarily by contact, while flus are spread primarily by inhalation. You have a cold, you politely (as taught) cover your sneeze or cough with a hand, then open a door using its doorknob, depositing your fresh virions on it. The person behind you opens the door, picking up your virions, then touches the mouth or nose (or eyes) before washing hands. That person is now probably infected. This is also why alcohol hand sanitizers have been clinically proven ineffective against colds. They will denature enveloped corona and adeno, but have basically no effect on the by far more prevalent naked rhinos.
There is an important corollary to this contact transmission fact. Infectivity via the contact route of transmission depends on how long a virion remains infective on an inanimate surface. This depends on the virion, the surface (hard doorknob or ‘soft’ cardboard packaging), and the environment (humidity, temperature). The general epidemiological rule of thumb for common colds and flus is at most 4 days viability. This corollary is crucial for Wuhan containment, discussed below.
The main flu infection route is inhalation of infected aspirate. This does not require a cough, merely an infected person breathing in your vicinity. In winter, when you breathe out outside below freezing ‘smoke’ it is just aspirate that ‘freezes’ and becomes visible. Football aficionados see this at Soldier and Lambeau Fields every winter watching Bears and Packers games. The very fine micro-droplet residence time in the air depends on humidity. With higher humidity, they don’t dry out as fast, so remain heavier and sink faster to where they don’t get inhaled, typically minutes. In typical winter indoor low humidity, they dry rapidly and remain circulating in the air for much longer, typically hours. This is also why alcohol hand sanitizers are ineffective against influenza; the main route of flu transmission has nothing to do with hands.
Wuhan Coronavirus
As of this writing, there are a reported 37500 confirmed infections and 811 deaths. Those numbers are about as reliable as GAST in climate change. Many people do not have access to definitive diagnostic kits; China has a habit of reporting an underlying comorbidity (emphysema, COPD, asthma) as cause of death, the now known disease progression means deaths lag diagnoses by 2-3 weeks. A climate analogy is the US surface temperature measurement problems uncovered by the WUWT Surface Stations project.
There are a number of important general facts we DO now know, which together provide directional guidance about whether anyone should be concerned or alarmed. The information is pulled from reasonably reliable sources like WHO, CDC, NIH, and JAMA or NEJM case reports. Plus, we have an inadvertent cruise ship laboratory experiment presently underway in Japan.
The incubation period is about 10-14 days until symptoms (fever, cough) evidence. That is VERY BAD news, because it has been demonstrated beyond question (Germany, Japan, US) that human to human transmission PRECEDES symptoms by about a week. So unlike SARS where all air travelers got a fever screening (mine was to and from a medical conference in Panama City). Since transmission did not precede symptoms, SARS fever screening sufficed; with Wuhan fever screening is futile. That is why all the 14-day quarantines imposed last week; the only way to quarantine Wuhan coronavirus with certainty is to wait for symptoms to appear or not. Quarantine is disruptive and expensive, but very effective.
Once symptoms appear, disease progression is now predictable from sufficient hundreds of case reports—usual corona cold progression for about 7-10 days. But then there is a bifurcation. 75-80% of patients start improving. In 20-25%, they begin a rapid decline into lower respiratory pneumonia. It is a subset of these where the deaths occur with or without ICU intervention. And as whistleblower Dr. Li’s death in Wuhan proves, ICU intervention is no panacea. He was an otherwise healthy 34 years old doctor.
There are two (really now three) key epidemiological numbers: R0 pronounced medically as ‘Rnaught’ (or, as we now know, R0 before and after symptoms). R naught is how many naïves will a single infected individual infect? We know from the Japanese cruise ship Diamond Princess quarantine that R0 is at least ~2. (As of now, 63 diagnosed out of 2667 passengers and ~1100 crew). Since Japan has moved the 63 symptomatic patients to hospital isolation, that same cruise ship may in the next 14 days also provide an experimental symptomless Wuhan R0 estimate. Late revision update, now 69, so asymptomatic R0 is unfortunately above 1.
The second important number is mortality, a virulence metric. We don’t know the mortality rate yet even given 811 deaths/37500 diagnosed. That is because of the multi-week disease progression, even if there were no other data issues. SARS was about 10% in the end (774 deaths from about 8000 diagnosed). The “Spanish flu’ of 1918-19 was also ~10% or perhaps a bit higher (CDC guesstimate is 40-60 million died out of about 500 million infected). BTW, for those wanting to deep dive that last lethal viral pandemic, I highly recommend the NYT best selling book THE GREAT INFLUENZA by John Barry. Wuhan is very unlikely to reach anywhere close to that mortality; otherwise we would already have seen many more deaths.
We also now know from a JAMA report Friday 2/7/2020 analyzing spread of Wuhan coronavirus inside a Wuhan hospital, that 41% of patients were infected within the hospital—meaning the ubiquitous surgical masks DO NOT work as prevention. The shortage of masks is symptomatic of panic, not efficacy.
Scientists last week also traced the source. There are two clues. Wuhan is now known to be 96% genetically similar to an endemic Asian bat corona. Like SARS and ‘Spanish flu’, it jumped to humans via an intermediate mammal species. No bats were sold in the Huanan wet market in Wuhan. But pangolins were, and as of Friday there is a 99% genetic match between pangolin corona and Wuhan human corona. Trade in wild pangolins is illegal, but the meat is considered a delicacy in China and Vietnam and pangolins WERE sold in the Wuhan wet market. This is is similar to SARS in 2003. A bat corona jumped to humans via live civets in another Chinese wet market. Xi’s ‘simple’ permanent SARS/Wuhan coronavirus solution is to ban Chinese wet markets.
This is similar to what is now known about the 1918-19 H1N1 ‘Spanish flu’. It started as a 1917 avian H1N1 (wild duck, Mississippi flyway, fall migration) influenza. It was hosted and incubated in an intermediary species, hogs, in Haskell County, Kansas for the rest of that year. A country doctor tending surprisingly many severe flu cases among hog farmer families as winter 1918 began raised an alarm, but his public health warnings were ignored. Then it jumped from Haskell County, Kansas hog farmers to Camp Funston, Kansas soldiers during winter 1918, where doughboys were training then deploying to Europe to finish the great war. The rest was history, with an R0 guesstimated between 2 and 3.
Conclusions
Should the world be concerned? Perhaps.
Will there be a terrible Wuhan pandemic? Probably not.
Again, the analogy to climate change alarm is striking. Alarm based on lack of underlying scientific knowledge plus unfounded worst case projections.
Proven human to human transmissibility and the likely (since proven) ineffectiveness of surgical masks were real early concerns. But the Wuhan virus will probably not become pandemic, or even endemic.
We know it can be isolated and transmission stopped with 14-day quarantine followed by symptomatic clinical isolation and ICU treatment if needed.
We know from infectivity duration on surfaces that it cannot be spread from China via ship cargo. And cargo ship crews can simply not be given shore leave until their symptomless ocean transit time plus port time passes 14 days.
Eliminating Chinese wet markets and the illegal trade in pangolins prevents another outbreak ever emerging from the wild, unfortunately unlike Ebola.
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Doubles every 5 days .
1000 out of 40000 is 2 1/2 %
So for 15 days, 3 doublings if death numbers to catch up
Is 8000 out of 40000 (close) nearly 20%.
Doctor friend pointed out that there would be a large number of unreported mild cases.
Halve rate?
Still 10%
Should I sell, Rudd?
Quarantine.
Quarantine.
Quarantine.
An excellent lucid essay of the kind that brings me back to WUWT. I was hoping that this topic would stay open.
I was under the impression (possibly wrongly) that flu vaccines were also developed in response to existing outbreaks in each Northern Hemisphere winter such that by the time it reaches us in the South we can be protected. I also read once that many flu/cold versions begin somewhere in Africa on an annual basis. Most outbreaks begin in the northern Hemisphere and move South with the seasons. On most occasions flu vaccines have worked for me – with only one failure during the last 10 years
I am already planning for isolation for my family. That is something we can do i.e. real isolation in a cabin. I still rank the odds of a pandemic at 4% but will still prepare
What makes me chuckle is the obvious unspoken truth that the panic is more financial than medical. I have worked in sites of natural disaster. The rich flounder. The poor walk merrily on. I am not a socialist, just a thinker. A financial crash would hurt me too . For all that I don’t mind seeing the super rich squirm.
Nature: The great leveler
Cheers
M
Yeah, about those Flu vaccines… You usually get at least 3 and now 4 different vaccines in a single shot (quad-variant). If they (CDC) guess well, you might be as much as 80% less likely to get a single variant of the Flu, and possibly have less severe symptoms if you get it. Normally you are about 40% to 60% less likely to get the Flu variants you are vaccinated for. Often a new variant you have not received a vaccination is one of them that spreads on any given year – if you are lucky one of the vaccination variants you took will at least be partially successful. So anyone thinking we will have a magic Corona Virus vaccination that is 100% effective should probably take a chill pill, sit down, and accept the risk.
Isolation only works if you have a source of food, water, and heat that you can tap into. That is assuming that there are no natural animal carriers of the virus in question. Far more effective is getting the best possible care for those you love if they become infected. My own guess is you have a 95% chance of not even noticing you are infected, and only 5% will show severe enough symptoms to need a hospital. Further, the healthier you start out the more likely you won’t even notice. It’s far more likely you would die from secondary causes and not the virus itself – so pneumonia for example, which if treated quickly (and is not a variant that is drug resistant) can be cured with a high success rate.
China is likely a worst case for this disease for various reasons already mentioned – high population density, poor hygiene in many ares of the cities, close proximity to animals, bad air pollution, smoking, etc. Avoid these conditions and your odds of dying from pneumonia go way down.
The poor hygiene in China is cultural, period.
So if I was on that cruise ship (day 7 of quarantine) and yesterday they took infected people off, then I could have caught the virus yesterday. In 7 days I will be released with no symptoms but I could have infected someone else just before release. They may find I am infected but they won’t find the last person I infected as there are too few virons in them. To be effective, don’t you have to stay quarantined until 14 days after the last discovered infection?
Everyone is isolated in their rooms. This should prevent further cross-infection.
Not the crew running the ship, cooking and delivering the meals.
And depending on how airborne it is, and how much virus the sick people taken off are shedding…
I have no idea about the air handling on those ships, but I did read that some have balconies and access to fresh air, but some have a tiny window. And how cold is it over where they are right now?
Can they just leave the window open?
I doubt they have fans.
Masks. Effective? Yes, with more protective equipment, training, and absolute following of procedures.
There is a study that shows wearing a mask is as effective as a respirator, the problem is the person wearing the mask must not touch their face with their hands. must change the mask regularly….
…. and in addition they need gloves, googles, a disposable gown, and procedures as to how and when to take the stuff off and safe disposal.
The problem is likely that the Wuhan staff did not have goggles, gloves, and a plastic disposable gown and/or they were so tired they made a mistake.
Medical staff at other hospitals, similarly, don gloves, goggles, and masks before seeing potential coronavirus patients. (William:… and gowns)
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51205344
Jonathan Ball, professor of molecular virology at the University of Nottingham, said: “In one well controlled study in a hospital setting, the face mask was as good at preventing influenza infection as a purpose-made respirator.”
Respirators, which tend to feature a specialised air filter, are specifically designed to protect against potentially hazardous airborne particles.
“However, when you move to studies looking at their effectiveness in the general population, the data is less compelling – it’s quite a challenge to keep a mask on for prolonged periods of time,” Prof Ball added.
Jake Dunning, head of emerging infections and zoonoses at Public Health England, said: “Although there is a perception that the wearing of facemasks may be beneficial, there is in fact very little evidence of widespread benefit from their use outside of these clinical setting.”
He said masks had to be worn correctly, changed frequently and got rid of safely if they were to work properly.
“Research also shows that compliance with these recommended behaviours reduces over time when wearing facemasks for prolonged periods,” he added.
People would be better to focus on good personal and hand hygiene if they are concerned, Dr Dunning said.
There is a Canadian NGO that claim in a Canadian National Newspaper that they found a virus that is 96% identical to the Wuhan virus, 15 years ago in a cave in China, where bats have lived for hundreds of years.
They said also that they tested people who live in the vicinity of the bat cave and found a small percentage had a immunity response that provided some protection to the virus.
They said they published their results and that the Chinese authorities placed a sign on the cave warning people not to enter.
Masks that gap at the sides offer little protection.
But at least they can contain some of a potentially infected person’s aerosolized coughing without having to use a bent elbowed sleeve.
Actually they could also be effective in stopping the subconscious touching of the nose and mouth, so they might be more effective then doctors typically think. (/shrug)
True. As long as you don’t touch your eyes more often as a result and from adjusting the mask.
The ones called N95 are supposed to be the ones to get. Looks like they are the ones which have a metal bead around the whole edge.
Holds it away from your face and nose, can be bent to seal at least somewhat.
I ordered some on Amazon a few weeks ago. My order disappeared…no record of having made it.
And they masks that used to be 10 for $6.99 are now $159 for a pack of 20, or one for $15…
I have plenty of PPE…respirators and dust masks and surgical masks, box full of tapes, rolls of a few kinds of plastic, tarps…
I will be waiting in line at some store and look down and see something, and recall…”Hey, remember that anthrax scare back about 18 years ago…”
My father was an administrator and on the faculty of a large teaching hospital.
Did an internship with the chairman of the neuroanatomy department when I was about 15.
The stories…OY!
He published a periodical called Animal Health News back in the 1960s…focus was on farm animals and the diseases they got, outbreaks, quarantines…most people have no idea what goes on.
“Masks that gap at the sides offer little protection.”
Yes . At times we worked in an area with a high concentration of graphite dust .
We would “cigarette roll ” electrical tape ( sticky side out ) and apply it on the complete outside edge of our masks .
Newbies would laugh … until we got done and pulled off our masks ….
our faces under the masks were clean …. theirs looked like they had no masks …
told them their lungs looked like their faces .
Still a handy ” get by ” in some situations .
And yes , you PULL off a mask edged with Scotch 33+ …
😉
Great field expedient hack.
Duct tape! Don’t leave home without it!
William, 96% identical, so why haven’t they found a cure for it? I’m sure somebody took a sample to a lab some where and studied it??
I know 96% isn’t 100% but its damn close
The difference between a harmless flu that barely makes anyone sick and pandemic flu that is deadly is a few molecules rearranged here and there.
Antibodies are highly specific.
Like putting the wrong key in a lock.
It might look like the same key, but you know how when you get a copy made, and you cannot even see why the new one is not working…it looks identical to the original?
Antibodies are a lot more specific than that.
In fact there may never be a vaccine. There are plenty of viruses that have been around forever with no vaccine.
Just because they made something does not mean it will work. Or be safe.
Thanks God, antibodies are lot less specific then high quality locks.
And that can be bad too. That’s why the hep B vaccine causes so much MS cases, other neurological diseases, many auto immune diseases…
Which is it, auto immune or caused by a vaccine.
You have to get the story straight.
Antibodies are very specific…not less so.
That is why vaccines are still not able to be made against many viruses that have been around forever.
So, if a vaccine can cause all those disorders, how about infections?
They are foreign, reproduce like crazy, attack our cells, and provoke an immune response.
But it is the vaccines which have virtually eliminated many diseases that we have to worry about?
Ironic that the very vaccines that have made so many people’s lives so free of actual causes for worry, have filled many of these same people with irrational fear.
Autoimmune caused by a vaccine. What I wrote. Duh.
“So, if a vaccine can cause all those disorders, how about infections?”
Influenza is known to cause a sometimes deadly immune response. So does Hep B. Duh.
Another big reason to avoid vaccination. Duh.
“But it is the vaccines which have virtually eliminated many diseases that we have to worry about?”
Which ones?
“Ironic that the very vaccines that have made so many people’s lives”
Prove it.
A wondrous thing to behold…a mind completely unencumbered by facts or information.
There is nothing wrong with you continuing to make a complete fool of yourself.
You may in fact be a valuable counterpoint to the people who comment here that are NOT empty headed fools.
So by all means, continue.
Why not tell us what is your specific beef?
What set you off against medical science?
What convinced you that the people who know what they are talking about are the ones who do NOT have any knowledge of the subjects at hand?
Has it ever occurred to you to actually investigate the things you babble about but have zero knowledge of?
Just curious.
So you admit you have no argument and nothing of value to post. You can’t make a point and don’t want to anyway.
You are only there to fill empty space, shilling for “science” (aka the medical buffoon buddies).
I’m done with you.
“I’m done with you.”
This is your biggest lie yet.
We all know you could never be content with merely proving yourself the Stupidest Troll on the Internet.
You will comment over and over again, making ever more succinct appeals for being awarded the status of Most Obnoxious Jackass On The Planet, not to mention consideration for your lifetime achievement award for Outstanding Vapidity and Insipidly Vacuous Doltmongering While Contributing Exactly Zero To Any Discussion Anywhere, Ever.
Just admit it…you are not going anywhere with all of that on the table.
Thanks for proving my point you are only there to pollute the Internet.
Why do mods allow you to fill the comment thread with sh*t is beyond me.
So now you are going to go PeeWee Herman on us?
“I know you are, but what am I?”
Weak.
Do better.
I am sure you have far more idiotic things you can babble about.
And you still have not been able to provide even one small piece of evidence showing one vaccine was ever useful.
You are only humiliating yourself. Why don’t you see a doctor to cure your provax derangement syndrome?
to: niceguy (a certified moron) re: “And you still have not been able to provide even one small piece of evidence showing one vaccine was ever useful.”
Stupid, go study the Polio epidemic the US saw in the 50’s, and the eventual cure:
https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/dell-rapids/2017/08/22/remembering-polio-epidemic-part/104718400/
PS. I’m surprised a lifeform such as yourself doesn’t require a breathing-assist device like an iron lung to maintain life, much as fully-affected Polio sufferers required a breathing-assist device such as the “iron lung”.
Nice guy is a troll, an antisocial incel sitting in some basement wearing a dirty wife beater, probably aged between 15 and 17.
In one sentence he asks for proof of the efficacy of polio vaccine, then asks what is polio.
His continued presence would seem to indicate he is either just a complete buttmunch or a masochist.
There is no part of the antivax psychopathy that pretends that vaccines are a hoax and no vaccines are any value whatsoever.
He pretends to believe that there is no such thing as disease, which is the tall.
He would be a laughingstock back in medieval times with his purported belief system.
Thedoric of York would call him an ignoramus, and be right.
There is an outside chance he is on the level and is actually as devoid of wits and education as he claims…but I doubt it.
He manages to spell and use punctuation better than Mosher.
I think he is just a low self esteem human punching bag.
He will not admit to reading anything, and will not go away.
Just watch.
He said he was done, but I could tell he would not be able to force himself, no matter how hard he tried, to just go away.
It all adds up to angry child.
overweight, pimples, never been kissed.
This is the most attention he has ever gotten, but has not been around long enough to figure out how to participate in a conversation that involves exchanging information or asking questions and learning something.
@Mod
DO
SOMETHING
very debilitating indeed. Anyone showing symptoms of “wokeness” needs to be isolated from the rest of the community as a matter or urgency.
since to date it is incurable, euthanasia may be necessary in severe cases.
Greg
“… euthanasia may be necessary in severe cases.”
Brute force method!
Would you keep that in case a member of your family is affected?
Rgds
J.-P. Dehottay
One definition of a Liberal is a Conservative who hasn’t mugged yet, either by a common criminal or the government for taxes.
A couple of points.
Influenza A and B (IFA/IFB) virus has 8 RNA segments (Influenza C only has only 7 segments but is not further considered here). An infective IFA/IFB virion must have all 8 segments, properly packaged. There are packaging signals on each of the 8 RNA segment that assists the proper assembly so all 8 are present before the protein-based matrix layer forms around them. This RNA genomic packaging is probably some very complex computational biology problems solved by RNA conformational structures. These packaging signals and conformations on the RNA segments are probably the least understood portion in Influenza virus molecular biology.
The practical outcome for this multi-segment Influenza genome in influenza A (IFA) is the ability of influenza to re-assort into novel viruses when a host is simultaneously infected with two different strains. This happens frequently in pigs (swine) as the intermediate host between the avian reservoir for almost all influenza viruses and humans acquiring a new reassortment version of influenza, with domestic chickens or pigs frequently as the intermediary host. The neuraminidase (NA) protein is coded on one segment, while the Hemagglutinin (HA) protein on another. There are now 16 HA subtypes identified (H1-H16), and 9 NA subtypes (N1-N9). This where the H1N1 and H3N2 designations as the two most common IFA types that infect humans. This creates lots of opportunities for a new reassortment IFA viruses to appear as they jump species. Thus successful IFA reassortment events, where a host is simultaneously infected two two different strains, this can lead to (and often does) a new novel strain different Hx and Nx designations. This is been given the name “antigenic shift” as in a sudden jump (shift) for the novel IFA virus. This is contrasted to antigenic drift which is the steady accumulation of RNA coding mutations that can bring the virus to evade immune system pressures from antibody binding to the 2 main surface structural proteins HA and NA primarily. The 2009 H1N1 Swine Flu was a genomic shift event that produced a novel combination of H1N1 segments that there was little to no preexisting “herd” immunity to in the human population.
The reason to cover this about Influenza when discussing Corona virus (CoV) is that the CoV is a single stranded RNA virus. CoV is not RNA multi-segmented like the influenza viruses. CoV is one long 27 to 32 kilobases (kb) length of RNA. Thus there is no antigenic “shift” of rapidly emerging reassortment viruses possible as happens in IFA. CoV must evolve by acquiring sporadic (stochastic) replication machinery mutations to its RNA via inevitable coding errors. These errors then that gets selected against or for by host immune response pressures and viral replication fitness. But because even a single cell makes so many tens of thousands of new particles, there are lots of opportunity for trial and error testing. Thus selection of “fitter” virions naturally occurs. The term “virion fitness” is routinely used by virologists when discussing this viral evolutionary strategy.
So where Rudd wrote, “In your body those two different coronaviruses can now both be replicating in the same host cells, and because of RNA replication are indiscriminately exchanging genetic material. So you might end up with an attenuated virulence Wuhan, or a more virulent Wuhan—but most likely both”, that is NOT a particularly accurate description about how CoV is thought to evolve new genomic mutations and shift it viral fitness for a new host or cell type. But it is accurate for a multi-segmented virus like IFA.
The other point that needs to be touched on is that RNA viruses, broadly speaking, come in two flavors Negative sense (strand) coding and Positive sense (strand) RNA coding. Corona viruses are Positive sense RNA viruses. Influenza viruses are negative sense viruses. What “negative sense” means is the viral RNA first has to be replicated to the opposite positive sense once it gets inside a cell, then the cell’s protein production machinery (ribosomes) can use the newly made positive sense RNA to make viral proteins. SO negative sense viruses have a two step process to make viral proteins and thus be infectious. Negative sense RNA viruses thus have to bring with them packaged inside their own RNA dependent, RNA polymerases (polymerases are the proteins that reads RNA and strings together the new RNA strands). That means that negative sense influenza RNA introduced into a cell without their viral polymerases is not infectious.
But on the flip side, CoV with its single strand, positive sense RNA is infectious by itself if it can get inside a cell. In other words, a full length naked Corona Virus RNA, introduced inside a cell, is all that it takes to initiate the infectious life cycle and the virus to begin hijacking the cell’s own machinery to begin making a releasing new CoV virions. This viral ecology of CoV makes it far more infectious (able to spread cell to cell) once inside a host while evading (failing to trigger) an early systemic immune response. The interferon response of all mammals is the host cells’ and tissue frontline first defense mechanism against viruses, a defense system that successful viruses have to find means of evasion to interferon responses in the early stages. A fever is an indication the interferon defense pathways have been triggered by an infection, and a person with a fever typically feels malaise (tiredness) and is more likely to isolate themselves (less contact). Thus Corona Viru, with its positive sense RNA nature, has innate advantages (in addition to active immune suppression mechanisms) for evading an early immune response while spreading to many cells inside the host, before widespread viral budding begins from cells and the immune system is activated.
Interesting points, thank you.
The question one should be asking, knowing a little about Chinese statistics. Is – how many have died of pneumonia or unknown causes in China, the last there months? That is the number that will give you the right answer. This has been raging in China since November and there is no end in sight.
P.S – Notice how the number of cases has risen sharply in Japan, are those from the ship, and we have a 135 fresh cases on the ship, or are we seeing a sharp acceleration in Japan?
Excellent work Rud. Especially for someone who has been miserably sick for a week. Can you elaborate a bit on your last sentence? Hope you’re feeling better.
I haven’t been too worried about Wuhan. Seems to me like worst case, it might do a lot of damage. But humanity and modern civilization will likely survive.
Ebola on the other hand. With death rates on the order of 50% of those infected. That’s scary. Given that it is active in a part of the world that appears to be barely capable of dealing with day to day life, much less an epidemic, what’s keeping it under some sort of control?
Don, a late return after a bit of a relapse on day 10 (right ear). Three observations.
1. Bat corona=>Civet=> human SARS and Bat corona=>pangolin=> human Wuhan have the same derivation from wild to human, no different than Duck avian influenza=>hogs=> human ‘Spanish flu’ in 1918. In both SARS and Wuhan (similar, not same end result viruses), the intermediary final transmission to humans was in Chinese wet markets. Close those, and another emergence from the wild is unlikely.
2. We do not know the wild reservoirs for Ebola. But it appears an intermediate species isn’t necessary. African bushmeat may suffice, or maybe mere direct contact with sufficient feces. It is suspected that one of the recent outbreaks started with village kids playing in a hollow tree preciously occupied by fruit bats. But the tree supposedly burned down, so could not be tested. Well, then go get a bunch of fruit bats and see if they are carrying Ebola. Africa is too poor for this sort of research.
3. Ebola is both easily transmissible via body fluids and very virulent—maybe 50% mortality. So once in humans, it rapidly ‘burns itself out’. Recurrences will therefore be from the wild reservoirs where the disease does not burn itself out. This has been an oft repeated pattern for African Ebola.
One thing about masks. You’ve got to change them often. Over time your breath soaks the material and that provides an excellent medium for pathogens to survive.
A great source for actual graphics, data, calculation methods, background information etc. on the Wuhan Corona virus outbreak is the following: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Main topics: Cases – Deaths – Countries – Death Rate – Transmission Rate – Incubation – Age
I am convinced that ALL current R0 numbers and death rates are unknown. The numbers are FUBAR. There is zero chance China would risk a major economic collapse and risk permanent loss of trade with these severe quarantines if the small numbers they are reporting are accurate.
Most cases are never recorded. Most deaths from this are likely not tested and recorded as respiratory failure if they are recorded. Many thousands were never accepted in the hospitals. ( Many videos of this) Many went home to die. Many recovered, but passed the virus on. The economic damage to China is immense, and quite possibly lasting.
Given the above, can we expect other nations to be honest in their reports?
Agree: there are many unknown factors. But if data are gathered in a consequent way at least trends may be inferred from those data. And the official data available are the only nationwide data there are.
Perhaps we can only find out the right number for R0 after the epidemic. The epidemic is still young and developing.
There are many signs of a very strong reaction of the Chinese government. They must have their reasons. Yesterday I saw a video of the city of Shanghai, far from Wuhan. No one on the roads.
The Chinese reaction is brutal. What China is doing may be down right murder, if reports are correct? It is shown that they are seperating anyone that MAY have been exposed to a positive case into buildings with no real medical supplies, very limited restrooms, rows of beds right next to each other, hundreds – thousands of beds. ( A 1.5 million sq foot convention center as an example)
It is certain that some of these people will be contagious although currently symptom free. These conditions make contagion almost certain with Asian ACE2 in men very high and perhaps 25 percent needing IC, which is likely N.A.
I tend to think the worst aspects of contagion about this are likely true.
Why? Because there is no chance that China would put 70 million plus on lock down and 350 million plus in severe travel restrictions for the numbers they are reporting. Because they arrest Doctors that show anything outside the party line. Because the videos look real and not staged. Because of numerous reports from wealthy well connected Chinese business men who say it is far worse then the official numbers.
Probably the Chinese government knows best what is happening and knows best the severeness of the threat.
With this in mind we should look to all messages that reach us. Not only Wuhan but an increasing number of other cities are having strict measures about contacts that people may have: Shanghai, Beijing and others.
Please pardon me if this is a silly question, I have never been on a cruise of any kind.
The passengers on the cruise ship under quarantine are kept in their cabins 24/7 correct??
They are getting food on room service trays delivered to the cabin correct??
Does a cruise ship have enough trays for all passengers and crew on hand??
If not how are they cleaned in between cabins and is the method used sufficient to eliminate food service from being a vector of transmission??
John G
Your questions are valid, not silly. My experience has been that cruise ships are very careful in their cleaning and sterilizing. An infectious outbreak onboard is an expensive nightmare for everyone from the investors to the staff.
I have read that passengers in this case are confined to quarters. This is likely worse than you think. Cabins can be very small – I’ve seen bathrooms in the US that were larger. Some cabins may just have a small window that can not be opened. If you ever contemplate a cruise, upgrade to a cabin with an exterior balcony!
You have to feel very sorry for the staff. They are being overworked, and are no doubtless scared, themselves. And at the end of this nightmare, I suspect gratuities might not be much.
I would think that meals are served at staggered intervals (breakfast served at 6, 7, 8, or 9 depending on your grouping) This would give them time to collect, clean, and sterilize what was used at 6 (picked up at 7), and used again at 8 , and the 7 oclock items reused at 9. I would hope they are using as many disposable paper plates and plastic utensils as they can.
Some of these cruise ships have 3000-4000 passengers on board. It would be a logistics nightmare and given there have been several food poisoning outbreaks in recent years I am not sure they are prepared for a total ship-wide quarantine situation. It would be dreadful for all.
Correction – I see the numbers from Japan has normalised and are back to 26, probably got a data glitch and counted the numbers from the ship as cases in Japan.
Excellent read! Thanks
I have a somewhat more negative take on the data out of China. The problem is that we just don’t have good data.
Given the sum total of all the data I have seen, I would guess that 2 < R0 < 3.5 and the death rate will approach 2-4%. With the number of people under quarantine in China, reported deaths of less than 1K makes little sense to me. I think following the data from the cruise ship anchored in Japan will give us a much better read. 130+ and counting as others have mentioned. I will be interested to see how your views change as the cruise ship data changes. While I get the problem of quarantining the people on land, I do question the wisdom of keeping people enclosed on a cruise ship. Some vacation those people are having!
I think the data manipulation out of China makes the climate data manipulators look like pikers.
From: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#repro
How contagious is the Wuhan Coronavirus? (Ro)
The attack rate or transmissibility (how rapidly the disease spreads) of a virus is indicated by its reproductive number (Ro, pronounced R-nought or r-zero), which represents the average number of people who will catch the disease from a single infected person.
A more recent study is indicating a Ro as high as 4.08.[22]. This value substantially exceeds WHO’s estimate (made on Jan. 23) of between 1.4 and 2.5[13], and is also higher than recent estimates between 3.6 and 4.0 and between 2.24 to 3.58 [23]. Preliminary studies had estimated Ro to be between 1.5 and 3.5 [5][6][7]
Based on these numbers, on average every case of the Novel Coronavirus would create 3 to 4 new cases.
An outbreak with a reproductive number of below 1 will gradually disappear.
For comparison, the Ro for the common flu is 1.3 and for SARS it was 2.0.
Ro? I take it that worldometers.info is not to be taken seriously.
Did you have a look at the webpage?
“Eliminating Chinese wet markets and the illegal trade in pangolins”
Maybe more than that. I asked my doc about why China is such an incubator for cross infection from animals and he said that they live in close quarters with the animals, large and small that they raise. He said in Vietnam they passed a law some years ago that you had to have separate lodging for your animals just for this reason.
John. That’s a reasonable question. Assuming we’re talking about the Diamond Princess, it’s tied to a dock in Yokohama. If they need more trays, I assume that someone on shore will put a bunch out on the dock for the crew to pick up. Same for food. As far as cleaning the trays and utensils, yes, that’s probably a problem, but likely a largely manageable one. If they need more working space, they presumably have a now empty dining hall to work in. How do they keep the on-board food workers from contracting and spreading the disease? Beats me.
“Assuming we’re talking about the Diamond Princess, it’s tied to a dock in Yokohama.”
Are you sure? I read that the city authorities don’t want its emissions and have ordered it to stay at sea except for occasional visits.
Roger. You may well be right. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the the Japanese sent the ship off to the most distant Japanese port that can accommodate it — someplace in Hokkaido or the Ryukus.
My lady and I we had a conversation yesterday about how quick and how strong Africa might be contaminated by this 2019-nCOV guy.
The reason is evident: China’s presence in Africa is, for obvious reasons, very high.
So I didn’t wonder to find today in the French newspaper Le Monde a link to a study:
Preparedness and vulnerability of African countries against introductions of 2019-nCoV
M. Gilbert & al.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.05.20020792v1
(PDF preview accessible inside)
Could the extent of response to the Corona virus in China be inferred from satellite imagery? Particularly vehicles in streets? Vehicle flow patterns also.
Thankyou very much Mr Istvan.
The plot thickens? When asked specifically the Chinese ambassador would NOT say that Wuhan Coronavirus did not come from a lab!
Wow. check out the videos of the trucks spraying down Wuhan.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1226902394765746176
Actions speak louder than words. I just can’t reconcile what they are doing with the idea that the Wuhan coronavirus isn’t much worse than the numbers.
I can’t even imagine how bad it might be in North Korea. I have been pleasantly surprised that we haven’t heard much from Africa.
I wonder what that fog is. They do a lot of things just for show.
That looks like mosquito fogging and a plane getting some kind of ceremonial washdown.
Nelson: “I can’t even imagine how bad it might be in North Korea.”
WR: from Twitter yesterday:
https://twitter.com/The_Daily_NK/status/1225737983497822208?s=20
Mr. Istvan;
I greatly enjoy your postings on various topics, in various fora.
I had no idea about your adventure with the anti-microbial/viral/fungal agent.
Hard to see how my small private placement bets are going to get commercialized when your compellingly important product didn’t.
I’m even less of an epidemiologist than you.
But as I interpret your conclusion,
it is implicitly reliant upon effective quarantine of infectious persons. Yes?
Is there any other mechanism which is intrinsically limiting spread from Wuhan to other Northern Hemisphere regions?
Asking again differently, does your tentative conclusion change if we have outbreaks in the USA? We are less able to weld people into their quarters than the CCP.
Thank you again for your educational efforts.
The amount of expertise on this site is staggering, that’s why it’s my go to site.
Keep it up lads ( & lasses & others ).
And thanks to Anthony for hosting you’ve done a great service to foster the scientific principle.
Anthony attracts very good people to his site. These people are not only intelligent and knowledgeable, they are easy to get along with.
I’m one of the many ‘silent lurkers’ here.
We visit everyday to learn about the many topics discussed here….
We also know better than to post a stupid question…..
We stay in the background and learn, also donate $ to WUWT.
“because it has been demonstrated beyond question (Germany, Japan, US) that human to human transmission PRECEDES symptoms by about a week.”
Complete BS. Everyone is rushing to publish to pad their careers and cash in. Debunking of the New England Journal of Medicine paper referencing German data is here.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/paper-non-symptomatic-patient-transmitting-coronavirus-wrong
Tell that to the 11 people (including 2 doctors) infected by the British guy who did not feel ill intil he had been back in the UK for a day.
In that time he had been to a Pub, a community hall Yoga class before going to his local hospital A&E.
Evidence beats “papers” every time.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7990525/Coronavirus-super-spreader-revealed-businessman-scout-leader-Brighton.html
The average adult gets 2 to 4 colds a year?
I have had maybe 3 colds in the last 20 years.
When I was a kid I used to have them all the time, but sometimes long periods would go by with no cold.
I have to question where such a stat comes from?
Some people claim to get sick all the time, but many people rarely or almost never get a cold or the flu.
If half of people get zero colds, does that mean the other half get twice as many?
Are these numbers self reported?
Maybe a few people get 52 colds as year and spare the rest of us from the misery of a cold every few months.
I have a friend who claims she gets the flu many times every year.
Obvious malarkey, but most people who are hypochondriacs are also extremely thin skinned.
I think she probably gets between zero and zero every year, and occasionally has a sniffle which she makes a giant big poor widdle me deal out of.
I’ve read that the elderly get fewer colds. I forget the reason, or if one was offered.
A lifetime of getting colds has something to do with it, I am sure.
But I mean when something is going around a home, or an office, or a school, and almost everyone is getting sick…some people do not get sick very often. Some people seem to never get colds or the flu.
I have rarely ever gotten either. I think I had flu twice in my life. One time I was little I recall it vividly.
I have had strep throat several times.
A lifetime of getting colds has something to do with it, I am sure.
But I mean when something is going around a home, or an office, or a school, and almost everyone is getting sick…some people do not get sick very often. Some people seem to never get colds or the flu.
I have rarely ever gotten either. I think I had flu twice in my life. One time I was little I recall it vividly.
I have had strep throat several times.