UPDATE – BOMBSHELL: audit of global warming data finds it riddled with errors

I’m bringing this back to the top for discussion, mainly because Steven Mosher was being a cad in comments, wailing about “not checking”, claiming McLean’s PhD thesis was “toast”, while at the same time not bothering to check himself. See the update below. – Anthony


Just ahead of a new report from the IPCC, dubbed SR#15 about to be released today, we have this bombshell- a detailed audit shows the surface temperature data is unfit for purpose. The first ever audit of the world’s most important temperature data set (HadCRUT4) has found it to be so riddled with errors and “freakishly improbable data”  that it is effectively useless.

From the IPCC:

Global Warming of 1.5 °C, an IPCC special report on the impacts of global warming of 1.5 °C above pre-industrial levels and related global greenhouse gas emission pathways, in the context of strengthening the global response to the threat of climate change, sustainable development, and efforts to eradicate poverty.

This is what consensus science brings you – groupthink with no quality control.

HadCRUT4 is the primary global temperature dataset used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) to make its dramatic claims about “man-made global warming”.  It’s also the dataset at the center of “ClimateGate” from 2009, managed by the Climate Research Unit (CRU) at East Anglia University.

The audit finds more than 70 areas of concern about data quality and accuracy.

But according to an analysis by Australian researcher John McLean it’s far too sloppy to be taken seriously even by climate scientists, let alone a body as influential as the IPCC or by the governments of the world.

Main points:

  • The Hadley data is one of the most cited, most important databases for climate modeling, and thus for policies involving billions of dollars.
  • McLean found freakishly improbable data, and systematic adjustment errors , large gaps where there is no data, location errors, Fahrenheit temperatures reported as Celsius, and spelling errors.
  • Almost no quality control checks have been done: outliers that are obvious mistakes have not been corrected – one town in Columbia spent three months in 1978 at an average daily temperature of over 80 degrees C.  One town in Romania stepped out from summer in 1953 straight into a month of Spring at minus 46°C. These are supposedly “average” temperatures for a full month at a time. St Kitts, a Caribbean island, was recorded at 0°C for a whole month, and twice!
  • Temperatures for the entire Southern Hemisphere in 1850 and for the next three years are calculated from just one site in Indonesia and some random ships.
  • Sea surface temperatures represent 70% of the Earth’s surface, but some measurements come from ships which are logged at locations 100km inland. Others are in harbors which are hardly representative of the open ocean.
  • When a thermometer is relocated to a new site, the adjustment assumes that the old site was always built up and “heated” by concrete and buildings. In reality, the artificial warming probably crept in slowly. By correcting for buildings that likely didn’t exist in 1880, old records are artificially cooled. Adjustments for a few site changes can create a whole century of artificial warming trends.

Details of the worst outliers

  • For April, June and July of 1978 Apto Uto (Colombia, ID:800890)  had an average monthly temperature of  81.5°C, 83.4°C and 83.4°C respectively.
  • The monthly mean temperature in September 1953 at Paltinis, Romania is reported as -46.4 °C (in other years the September average was about 11.5°C).
  • At Golden Rock Airport, on the island of St Kitts in the Caribbean, mean monthly temperatures for December in 1981 and 1984 are reported as 0.0°C. But from 1971 to 1990 the average in all the other years was 26.0°C.

More at Jo Nova


The report:

Unfortunately, the report is paywalled. The good news is that it’s a mere $8.

The researcher, John McLean, did all the work on his own, so it is a way to get compensated for all the time and effort put into it. He writes:

This report is based on a thesis for my PhD, which was awarded in December 2017 by James Cook University, Townsville, Australia. The thesis1 was based on the HadCRUT4 dataset and associated files as they were in late January 2016. The thesis identified 27 issues of concern about the dataset.

The January 2018 versions of the files contained not just updates for the intervening 24 months, but also additional observation stations and consequent changes in the monthly global average temperature anomaly right back to the start of data in 1850.
The report uses January 2018 data and revises and extends the analysis performed in the original thesis, sometimes omitting minor issues, sometimes splitting major issues and sometimes analysing new areas and reporting on those findings.

The thesis was examined by experts external to the university, revised in accordance with their comments and then accepted by the university. This process was at least equivalent to “peer review” as conducted by scientific journals.

I’ve purchased a copy, and I’ve reproduced the executive summary below. I urge readers to buy a copy and support this work.

Get it here:

Audit of the HadCRUT4 Global Temperature Dataset


EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

As far as can be ascertained, this is the first audit of the HadCRUT4 dataset, the main temperature dataset used in climate assessment reports from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Governments and the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) rely heavily on the IPCC reports so ultimately the temperature data needs to be accurate and reliable.

This audit shows that it is neither of those things.

More than 70 issues are identified, covering the entire process from the measurement of temperatures to the dataset’s creation, to data derived from it (such as averages) and to its eventual publication. The findings (shown in consolidated form Appendix 6) even include simple issues of obviously erroneous data, glossed-over sparsity of data, significant but questionable assumptions and temperature data that has been incorrectly adjusted in a way that exaggerates warming.

It finds, for example, an observation station reporting average monthly temperatures above 80°C, two instances of a station in the Caribbean reporting December average temperatures of 0°C and a Romanian station reporting a September average temperature of -45°C when the typical average in that month is 10°C. On top of that, some ships that measured sea temperatures reported their locations as more than 80km inland.

It appears that the suppliers of the land and sea temperature data failed to check for basic errors and the people who create the HadCRUT dataset didn’t find them and raise questions either.

The processing that creates the dataset does remove some errors but it uses a threshold set from two values calculated from part of the data but errors weren’t removed from that part before the two values were calculated.

Data sparsity is a real problem. The dataset starts in 1850 but for just over two years at the start of the record the only land-based data for the entire Southern Hemisphere came from a single observation station in Indonesia. At the end of five years just three stations reported data in that hemisphere. Global averages are calculated from the averages for each of the two hemispheres, so these few stations have a large influence on what’s supposedly “global”. Related to the amount of data is the percentage of the world (or hemisphere) that the data covers. According to the method of calculating coverage for the dataset, 50% global coverage wasn’t reached until 1906 and 50% of the Southern Hemisphere wasn’t reached until about
1950.

In May 1861 global coverage was a mere 12% – that’s less than one-eighth. In much of the 1860s and 1870s most of the supposedly global coverage was from Europe and its trade sea routes and ports, covering only about 13% of the Earth’s surface. To calculate averages from this data and refer to them as “global averages” is stretching credulity.

Another important finding of this audit is that many temperatures have been incorrectly adjusted. The adjustment of data aims to create a temperature record that would have resulted if the current observation stations and equipment had always measured the local temperature. Adjustments are typically made when station is relocated or its instruments or their housing replaced.

The typical method of adjusting data is to alter all previous values by the same amount. Applying this to situations that changed gradually (such as a growing city increasingly distorting the true temperature) is very wrong and it leaves the earlier data adjusted by more than it should have been. Observation stations might be relocated multiple times and with all previous data adjusted each time the very earliest data might be far below its correct value and the complete data record show an exaggerated warming trend.

The overall conclusion (see chapter 10) is that the data is not fit for global studies. Data prior to 1950 suffers from poor coverage and very likely multiple incorrect adjustments of station data. Data since that year has better coverage but still has the problem of data adjustments and a host of other issues mentioned in the audit.

Calculating the correct temperatures would require a huge amount of detailed data, time and effort, which is beyond the scope of this audit and perhaps even impossible. The primary conclusion of the audit is however that the dataset shows exaggerated warming and that global averages are far less certain than have been claimed.

One implication of the audit is that climate models have been tuned to match incorrect data, which would render incorrect their predictions of future temperatures and estimates of the human influence of temperatures.

Another implication is that the proposal that the Paris Climate Agreement adopt 1850-1899 averages as “indicative” of pre-industrial temperatures is fatally flawed. During that period global coverage is low – it averages 30% across that time – and many land-based temperatures are very likely to be excessively adjusted and therefore incorrect.

A third implication is that even if the IPCC’s claim that mankind has caused the majority of warming since 1950 is correct then the amount of such warming over what is almost 70 years could well be negligible. The question then arises as to whether the effort and cost of addressing it make any sense.

Ultimately it is the opinion of this author that the HadCRUT4 data, and any reports or claims based on it, do not form a credible basis for government policy on climate or for international agreements about supposed causes of climate change.


Full report here


UPDATE: 10/11/18

Some commenters on Twitter, and also here, including Steven Mosher, who said McLean’s thesis/PhD was “toast” seem to doubt that he was actually allowed to submit his thesis, and/or that it was accepted, thus negating his PhD. To that end, here is the proof.

McLean’s thesis appears on the James Cook University website:  “An audit of uncertainties in the HadCRUT4 temperature anomaly dataset plus the investigation of three other contemporary climate issues“, submitted for Ph.D. in physics from James Cook University (2017).

And, he was in fact awarded a PhD by JCU for that thesis.

Larry Kummer of Fabius Maximus directly contacted the University to confirm his degree. Here is the reply.

ADDED:

JOHN MCLEAN here.
For Mr Mosher,

I don’t insult and I don’t accuse without investigation. And if I don’t know I try to ask.

(a) Data files
If you want copies of the data that I used in the audit, as they were when I downloaded them in January, go to web page https://robert-boyle-publishing.com/audit-of-the-hadcrut4-global-temperature-dataset-mclean-2018/ and just scroll down.

Or download the latest versions of the files from yourself from the CRU and Hadley Centre, namely https://crudata.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/ and https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs/hadsst3/data/download.html. (The fact that file names are always the same and it’s confusing is one of the fidnings of the audit.)

(b) Apto Uto not used? Figure 6.3 shows that it is used, the lower than expected spikes are because of other stations in the same grid cell and the vale of the cell is the average anomaly for all such stations.

(c) What stations are used and what are not?
The old minimum of 20 years of the 30 from 1961 to 1990 was dropped a few HadCRUT versions back. It then went to 15 years with no more than 5 missing in any decade. HadCRUT4 reduced it again to 14.

best wishes

John

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Barry Brill
October 7, 2018 11:10 pm

The IPCC AR5 found it “extremely likely that more than half” the observed warming of 0.6°C during 1951-2010 was caused by human influences. If Dr McLean is correct in his generous estimate that “observed warming” was overstated by only 0.2°C, then AGW for that 60-year period was somewhere between 0.2°C and 0.4°C.

The IPCC’s Special Report today, says that the world has warmed by 1.0° since about 1850. If so, and if AGW continues at the same rate as previously, then the overall rise will be 1.2° to 1.4°C in 60 years’ time. The IPCC won’t have to worry about hitting the 1.5°C target during this current century.

DWR54
Reply to  Barry Brill
October 8, 2018 12:59 am

Barry Brill

“The IPCC’s Special Report today, says that the world has warmed by 1.0° since about 1850. If so, and if AGW continues at the same rate as previously, then the overall rise will be 1.2° to 1.4°C in 60 years’ time.”
______________________

They’re not saying that though. They’re saying that the current rate is different from the rate 1850-present, because the early part of the record to 1900 is largely unaffected by AGW as is much of the first part of the 20th century. They define the ‘current’ rate of global warming as 0.2°C (+/- 0.1 °C) per decade with ‘high confidence’ (see SPM A1.1).

Using their best estimate figure of +0.2°C/dec, they would expect to see ~1.2°C within the next 10 years and ~1.4 °C within the next 20 years. In 60 years’ time, assuming a continued +0.2 °C/dec rise, temperatures would be ~2.2 °C relative to 1880. They could be wrong, of course, but that’s what they are saying as far as I can see.

DWR54
Reply to  DWR54
October 8, 2018 1:00 am

Relative to 1850, not 1880, sorry.

Reply to  DWR54
October 8, 2018 1:10 pm

Could you go through your calculations in more detail? 0.2C/decade should give 0.2C for the first ten years, 0.4C for 20 years, and 1.2C for 6 decades (60 years).

DWR54
Reply to  Jim Gorman
October 8, 2018 3:07 pm

Jim Gorman

Jim, the warming rate of 0.2C per decade is ‘in addition’ to the warming already experienced since 1901; the so-called ‘post-industrial’ temperature rise. This is estimated by the IPCC to be ~1.0 C at present (based on linear regression using an average of the GISS, HadCRUT4, NOAA and Cowtan & Way temperature data sets).

If you add that additional 1.0C to the values you state you’ll get the same numbers I quoted.

Reply to  DWR54
October 9, 2018 5:33 am

That’s not what you indicated. You mentioned relative to 1850, not 1901. In essence you’re saying 1850 – 1900 was flat, i.e. no warming, and the atmosphere started warming in 1901.

MarkW
Reply to  DWR54
October 11, 2018 11:48 am

When the real error margins are at least 10 times greater than trends you are claiming to measure, then you really can’t say anything meaningful about either trend.

Rag
October 8, 2018 12:20 am

Yippee ki-yay!

DWR54
October 8, 2018 1:18 am

“…one town in Columbia spent three months in 1978 at an average daily temperature of over 80 degrees C…”
____________________

I’m guessing that the anomaly then would be at least ~40°C, assuming these were summer months. It seems extraordinary that such an anomaly would by-pass any quality control filter. If it did, then I’m asking myself why no-one has noticed this until now? Also, why publish this astonishing evidence online via a website rather than in a peer reviewed journal?

Can anyone who has downloaded this publication confirm that the current published HadCRUT4.4 files contain monthly temperature anomalies for individual stations that are in the region of 40 °C for any month, let alone for a continuous 3-month period? Are we sure these are not just the ‘reported values’ rather than the quality controlled HadCRUT4.4 output? Are we sure that stations reporting these outlandish figures were even included in the HadCRUT4.4 database and not simply discarded?

Anthony Banton
Reply to  DWR54
October 8, 2018 1:45 am

See post from Nick Stokes.

Steven Mosher
Reply to  DWR54
October 9, 2018 3:45 am

i check his apto uto station

its not used.

you guys get your money back.

mem
October 8, 2018 4:59 am

As a statistician I find the concept of recording a global average temperature absurd. There were no statisticians included (nor are there yet) in the IPCC process. The misuse of statistics is a travesty beyond belief.

knr
Reply to  mem
October 11, 2018 10:38 am

Its an oddity that climate ‘scientists’ claim they are the only people able to judge their work , as the ‘experts ‘ , but regard it pointless to ask those who are experts in others areas for their input because climate ‘scientists’ are experts in everything .

You may not need to be any good and science, but you certainly need a planet sized ego and the ability to talk out of the side of your mouth to work in that area.

KaliforniaKook
October 8, 2018 8:48 am

This article should be saved under “Climate Fails” for future reference. It is big, notwithstanding Stoke’s contention that everyone who uses it cleans up all the failings of HadCRUT4, which is doubtful.

Anthony Banton
October 8, 2018 9:02 am

“It is big”
No, it’s a big fat zero.
“notwithstanding Stoke’s contention that everyone who uses it cleans up all the failings of HadCRUT4, which is doubtful.”

That’s NOT what Nick says …..

“These are errors in the raw data files as supplied by the sources named. The MO publishes these unaltered, as they should. BUT THEY PERFORM QUALITY CONTROL BEFORE USING THEM. You can find such a file of data as used here. ”

IE: HADCRUT4 does not have the errors in it.

Dutch
October 8, 2018 11:09 am

So the net conclusion from this paper and the comments is this: the government and academics lied in exchange for money power and status.

In other news, the sky is blue (isn’t it?)…

Paramenter
October 8, 2018 1:28 pm

Mr Banton: “Only if you think that because we don’t know everything (precisely) then we know nothing.
If that’s the case then we will get nowhere in anything.”

I prefer to think about it in the following manner: to make a certain judgments we need data/measurements with acceptable accuracy. Instrumental temperature records up to few decades ago simply do not provide sufficient resolution to decisively answer the question whether changes of global temperature average +/- 0.5 C per half of the century actually happen.

October 8, 2018 5:12 pm

Yeah, good work and all that, but doesn’t such a study belong in a bachelor level thesis. Its something that could have been done in a science fair project. I guess though, that the people who put HadCRUT together all have PhDs, too. Are there any climate scientists who DON’T have a PhD? Do experts nowadays skip BSc and MScs? Steve McIntyre’s famous quote comes to mind:

“In my opinion, most climate scientists on the Team would have been high school teachers in an earlier generation – if they were lucky. Many/most of them have degrees from minor universities. It’s much easier to picture people like Briffa or Jones as high school teachers than as Oxford dons of a generation ago. Or as minor officials in a municipal government.

Allusions to famous past amateurs over-inflates the rather small accomplishments of present critics, including myself. A better perspective is the complete mediocrity of the Team makes their work vulnerable to examination by the merely competent.”

– Steve McIntyre, Climate Audit Aug 1, 2013 at 2:44 PM

John Tillman
Reply to  Gary Pearse
October 8, 2018 5:45 pm

Gary,

I could be wrong, but IMO Gavin has more or less admitted that he was saved by the convenient emergence of CACA as a lucrative thing. His degree is in math, not any scientific discipline relevant to climatology. He wasn’t good enough to get a job as an academic mathematician, so computer gaming in NYC was just the thing for him.

Now, as a legal alien and federal employee, he can’t be gotten rid of. Which is why I advocate shutting down the corrupt conspiracy which is GISS and sending its now unemployed and unemployable former denizens to the North Pole to gather real data rather than making stuff up.

Archie
October 8, 2018 5:33 pm

If the global warming nuts would have based their speculation on regions where the data is plentiful they may have succeeded in their efforts. Areas with poor data would be excluded from the analysis. Then they could say that ‘40% of the regions show global warming’ and gotten their way. Instead they concocted the global temperature and botched the whole affair.

Another Scott
October 8, 2018 6:45 pm

Too bad there is so much politicization of climate data. “Bombshell” reports like this could be used to improve or correct errors in the dataset.

Steven Mosher
October 9, 2018 2:58 am

Simple check

CRU in the end uses about 5000 stations

these are refered to as the USED stations. stations can be dropped if they do not have enough coverage in the ‘baseline period”

To understand what data is ACTUALLY USED you go here

https://crudata.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/crutem4/crutem4_asof020611_stns_used_hdr.txt

the researcher claims:

“For April, June and July of 1978 Apto Uto (Colombia, ID:800890) had an average monthly temperature of 81.5°C, 83.4°C and 83.4°C respectively.”

there is NO such station in the data that is used

800010 126 817 1 SAN ANDRES/SESQUICEN COLOMBIA 19612011 101961 3646 1136
800090 111 742 -999 SANTA MARIA COLOMBIA 19752011 101975 3647 1138
800220 105 755 2 CARTAGENA/NUNEZ A COLOMBIA 19512011 301951 3648 1137
800970 79 725 250 CUCUTA/DAZA A COLOMBIA 19712011 101971 3651 1210
801100 62 756 1490 OLAYA HERRERA AIRPOR COLOMBIA 19412000 101941 3652 1209
802220 47 742 2547 BOGOTA/ELDORADO A COLOMBIA 19232011 101923 3655 1282
802410 46 709 171 LAS GAVIOTAS COLOMBIA 19712011 101971 3656 1282
802590 36 764 961 CALI/BONILLA A COLOMBIA 19482011 101948 3658 1281
803150 30 753 439 NEIVA/SALAS A COLOMBIA 19712011 101971 3661 1281
803910 79 726 -999 CAZADERO AP. COLOMBIA 19481970 101948 3663 1210
803920 76 726 1235 BLONAY COLOMBIA 19512000 101951 3664 1210
803930 49 751 1495 EL LIBANO COLOMBIA 19521970 101952 3665 1281
803940 50 757 1400 NARANJAL COLOMBIA 19512000 101951 3666 1209
803960 44 744 1550 TIBACUY GRANGE COLOMBIA 19522000 101952 3667 1282
803990 13 775 1700 OSPINA PEREZ COLOMBIA 19531970 101953 3668 1281

The reason why CRU does not USE Apto Uto is because it does NOT have the required number of years
in the base period. For CRU this is 1951-1980 and a station MUST HAVE 20 of those 30 years
OR IT IS DROPPED

But there is a way to use this data if you dont use anomaly periods

OH LOOK! QC flags the data

http://berkeleyearth.lbl.gov/stations/12644

take back this jerks Phd

Scott Bennett
Reply to  Steven Mosher
October 10, 2018 4:19 pm

What is with you guys and misdirection, the audit found 70 areas of concern.

.. a few people who know what they’re talking about… – Philip Schaeffer

Yeah, yeah they attacked one single issue! One down, 69 to go.

Ever heard of the law of small numbers, its another name for Secundum quid, the fallacy of hasty induction, generalization from the particular, illicit generalisation, blanket statement, leaping to conclusion… etc.

You really should look into the weakness of the fallacy of the lonely fact!

Philip Schaeffer
Reply to  Scott Bennett
October 11, 2018 12:50 am

Why do you think it is that they found this, but none of the so called real skeptics here did?

Were you all not looking, or is it an issue of technical ability? Can you point to anyone else here who is skeptically assessing the accuracy of this paper and its conclusions??

Scott Bennett
Reply to  Philip Schaeffer
October 11, 2018 1:44 am

Read my next comment and reply to Mosher, they didn’t find anything real! It was misrepresentation of the pertinent facts… again!

knr
Reply to  Steven Mosher
October 11, 2018 10:33 am

‘stations can be dropped if they do not have enough coverage in the ‘baseline period”’

and replaced by what ?

It a very easy game to drop data that does not support you and add in ‘model data ‘ which does , but its not ‘science’ its marketing straight out of the ‘nine out of ten cats ‘ approach .

John Endicott
Reply to  Steven Mosher
October 11, 2018 11:01 am

And what is your PhD in Mosh?

if we are taking back the credentials of jerks, yours should be at the head of the queue.

Stanley Parks
Reply to  Steven Mosher
October 11, 2018 11:13 pm

Has anyone canvassed the potential for transcription and conversion errors in historical data? For example historical temperature measurements in the British system would have been in Fahrenheit. Other countries’ observers may have used Fahrenheit or Celsius – who knows if the high 80’s records from Colombia were actually Fahrenheit numbers that remained unconverted to Celsius?
I would place no credibility on historic temperature records given the total lack of quality control in data recording. It’s rubbish!

John McLean
Reply to  Steven Mosher
October 19, 2018 5:14 am

I feel sorry for you. You have shown yourself gullible enough to believe what the CRU, home to the Climategate emails, says.
The demonstrable fact is that obvious errors, including those for Apto Uto, have found their way into the HadCRUT4 dataset (and for that matter into the CRUTEM4 dataset).

Steven Mosher
October 9, 2018 3:11 am

Poor guy.

1 check and his Phd is toast.

now some of you will pay for this report. But I wont because he failed the simple requirement of posting his data and code., And more importantly he points to data

THAT CRU DOESNT USE!! For fucks sake skeptics.

CRU requires data in the period of 1950-1980. that is HOW the calculate an anomaly

and look. in 30 seconds I checked ONE one his claims.

None of you checked.

you spent money to get something that FIT YOUR WORLD VIEW

you could have checked. but no.

gullible gullible gullible

Philip Schaeffer
Reply to  Steven Mosher
October 10, 2018 8:41 am

Pages of back slapping and cheering, and a few comments about how Stokes and Mosher will be along with their usual derision….. But do any of them actually bother to look at the study skeptically?

All the usual carry on, and here we are against as usual with you two actually examining and testing what was put forward, while others who didn’t cheer for the study and sneer bitterly at the few people who know what they’re talking about and actually bothered to investigate for themselves.

Scott Bennett
Reply to  Steven Mosher
October 10, 2018 5:58 pm

Again with the deliberate misdirection!

CRU requires data in the period of 1950-1980. that is HOW the calculate an anomaly – Steven Mosher

He wasn’t talking about the calculation of the anomaly, was he Steven!

He was talking about the calculation of the normals, the standard deviation from which the anomaly is later derived.
And there were two periods over which the long-term average temperatures and standard deviations are calculated for this location, the first from 1961 to 1990 and the second from 1947 to 1988; both in the period 1950-1980.

The author specified that his concern was for the inclusion of outlier locations – Apto Uto in this case – in the CRUTEM4 grid cell “Normals”:

The concern at this point is the inclusion of outliers in the calculation of the long-term average temperatures or of the standard deviations. Outliers present in this subset of the data will widen error margins in long-term averages, distort temperature anomalies and, for standard deviations, potentially lead to the inclusion of further outlying data in the data record at other times.

I love the smell of alliteration first thing in the morning:

gullible gullible gullible – Steven Mosher

Fire ready aim! 😉

John Tillman
Reply to  Scott Bennett
October 10, 2018 6:09 pm

As if English major and marketeer Steven is qualified to comment upon statistical analysis or the scientific method.

Michael Jankowski
Reply to  John Tillman
October 11, 2018 10:38 am

English doesn’t even seem to be his first language.

John Endicott
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
October 11, 2018 11:04 am

Perhaps his English degree should be taken away then. What’s good for the goose….

Reply to  Steven Mosher
October 11, 2018 12:28 pm

Dear Steven Mosher:

You say “he failed the simple requirement of posting his data and code.”

You should be even more concerned about such failures in the climate establishment, which is promoting policies which could potentially require trillions of dollars in spending.

Are you indicating you would be willing to vigorously support requests for data, associated code, etc. from researchers whose findings support the “climate disaster in the future” narrative? To the extent you would be willing to testify in court, such as the cases in Virginia and Arizona, regarding the critical importance of making such data available?

MarkW
Reply to  Ralph Dave Westfall
October 11, 2018 2:22 pm

I thought his data was HADCRUT 4. Isn’t that publicly available?
What code, he visually inspected the data and reported problems with it.

It really does seem that Mosh is just phoning it in these days.

Jonathan Griggs
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 2:56 pm

This is exactly what I was thinking Mark. The data is publicly available already, he didn’t modify it from what I can find in the report.

He may have written some code but it would be pretty basic stuff for anyone familiar with statistical analysis. Furthermore, the code didn’t do calculations against the data to come up with some other number to report, he just looked for outliers, missing data, and adjustments that don’t make sense.

I try not be mean towards people like Mosher when they post here. In fact I look forward to their posts because I learn as much or more from the replies and conversations that ensue (though the arguments are getting more than a bit repetitive these days). However, on this occasion I think its safe to say this was a swing and a miss.

Reply to  Ralph Dave Westfall
October 13, 2018 8:56 am

Amen, Ralph Dave Westfall!!!

Steve Mosher, Ralph asked you a pair of questions, in his last paragraph. I’m very interested in hearing your answers.

John Endicott
Reply to  Dave Burton
October 19, 2018 5:45 am

Don’t hold your breath, Drive by Mosh rarely answers such questions

Russell Scott
Reply to  Steven Mosher
October 12, 2018 12:51 am

Steven Mosher, forward this fine research of yours onto the IPCC, i think you’re a shoe in for AR7.

John McLean
Reply to  Steven Mosher
October 19, 2018 5:16 am

Language Mr Mosher!
Despite what you claim (and what the CRU says), I can show that the obvious errors in the Apto Uto data are included.

October 9, 2018 5:41 am

Has it ever been used and if so when was it dropped?

Reply to  Jim Gorman
October 9, 2018 8:07 pm

“Has it ever been used”
Well, that seems to be a question that John McLean, PhD, did not bother to investigate, nor his supervisor (norany of his supporters here). But this 2011 post-QC data listing shows the station had its data truncated after 1970. And then, as Steven says, for use in a global anomaly calculation as in CRUTEM 4, the entire station failed to qualify because of lack of data in the anomaly base period. That is not exactly a QC decision, but doubly disqualifies it from HADCRUT 4.

Simon
October 9, 2018 3:52 pm

Hopefully you all now see why temperature data has to be homogenised.

Bent Andersen
Reply to  Simon
October 11, 2018 10:25 am

Yes it is very clear now: the CAGW meme cannot survive without it

MarkW
Reply to  Simon
October 11, 2018 11:52 am

As if homogenization can turn crap into spun gold.

October 9, 2018 7:36 pm

This page has been recognized.

October 10, 2018 9:51 am

Enthalpy of moist air: look here for live graphs of the enthalpy at meteoLCD (Diekirch, Luxembourg) and notice the daily swings!

Reply to  Francis MASSEN
October 11, 2018 1:42 pm

Francis,

Those hourly peaks and valleys in enthalpy are probably due to thunderstorms. Absolute humidity usually falls during a thunderstorm because cold air from the upper atmosphere falls with the rain and because cold rain dehumidifies the air it falls through.

MarkW
October 11, 2018 10:16 am

The usual suspects have come out with the usual line about how the errors have been found and fixed.

The point is that lost data can’t be recovered. Sure they can make guesses about what the data should have been. However a sane person would never consider such guesses to be the same quality as real data.

And this is on top of the many quality control problems with the sites themselves.

The idea that we can use this data to figure out what the temperature of the earth is today, within 0.1C is ludicrous. The idea that we can use the same data to figure out what the earth’s temperature 100 years ago with equal accuracy is out and out insane. Only someone with no concept of how science works could make such a claim.

John Endicott
Reply to  MarkW
October 19, 2018 5:47 am

Which explains why an English major believes it. 😉

MarkW
October 11, 2018 10:17 am

Mosh being a cad. There is nothing new under the sun.

knr
October 11, 2018 10:29 am

The problem remains that you assume that data being wrong is a ‘bad thing ‘ when in practice that the data is wrong but ‘useful ‘ makes it a wholly ‘good thing ‘ in climate ‘science ‘ .
Has ever the trick is to not think ‘science’ ,but politics, religion or fanatical sport fan , and you then understand how this works and why ‘faith ‘ is far more important that ‘fact ‘

John Endicott
October 11, 2018 11:34 am

I’m bringing this back to the top for discussion, mainly because Steven Mosher was being a cad in comments

I’m shocked! Shocked to find that gambling is going on in here Steven Mosher was being a cad (with apologies to Casablanca

u.k.(us)
October 11, 2018 12:19 pm

If one of my frenemies, pulled it all the way back, and just called me a cad.
Well, ya gotta love them.

Richmond
October 11, 2018 1:51 pm

I just downloaded Dr. McLean’s thesis. If all of the readers here do that it will send a message of support.

October 11, 2018 1:55 pm

“Steven Mosher was being a cad in comments, wailing about “not checking”, claiming McLean’s PhD thesis was “toast”, while at the same time not bothering to check himself.”

Not s surprise.
Hard cheese to Mosher, for cad behavior; i.e. acting like any number of trollops.

Perhaps it is time to give Mosher a rest from WUWT commenting?

u.k.(us)
Reply to  ATheoK
October 11, 2018 2:09 pm

The site wouldn’t be the same without Mosher, he keeps us thinking.

MarkW
Reply to  ATheoK
October 11, 2018 2:25 pm

Nah, let Mosh keep being a cad. He helps to remind the world of the caliber of people who support the CAGW scamm.

John Tillman
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 2:35 pm

Computer Aided Denier of climate reality.

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 2:35 pm

MarkW, you have no clue as to the caliber of people that study and accept AGW. You certainly can’t base it on the class of people that visit this site. Real climate scientists don’t waste their time here.

MarkW
Reply to  C. Paul Pierett
October 11, 2018 4:40 pm

I base it on what they say and what they do.
As always, the alarmist assumes that the only reason people don’t agree with it are because they are ignorant.

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 4:52 pm

But MarkW you don’t know what they say and what they do. You spend all your time here, and you never interact with them .

2hotel9
Reply to  C. Paul Pierett
October 11, 2018 5:22 pm

If their report has no “errors” they should be able to easily prove so. Why hide behind a wall of obfuscation and denial, seems quite deceptive on its very face.

John Tillman
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 5:11 pm

A lot of commenters here do know what so-called “climate scientists” do and say. We can read their papers and communicate with Gavin on his blog, which he maintains on the taxpayers’ dime. Too much of what they do isn’t real climatology but GIGO computer gaming, and many aren’t even scientists but mathematicians and programmers. Some who are scientists, like Dr. Spencer, do comment here.

Who knows better what “climate scientists” say and do than atmospheric physicist Dr. Lindzen, emeritus Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology at MIT? His conclusion from this close acquaintance is that 90% of “climate science” should be defunded.

As the late, great “Father of Climatology”, Dr. Bryson, so eloquently stated, “You can go outside and spit and have the same effect as doubling carbon dioxide”. As you may know, Dr. Gray, the “Father of Hurricanology”, was also skeptical, to put it mildly, of catastrophic anthropogenic climate change.

These and many other skeptical climatologists, meteorologists, physicists, chemists and scientists in other relevant disciplines know well what “climate scientists” say and do. And are horrified or disgusted.

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 5:22 pm

Lindzen doesn’t believe tobacco causes cancer. He smokes during his lectures. How can you believe anything he says? He can’t deal with the scientific evidence of the harms of smoking on his own health, how can he even think about the harms of human pollution?

PS….he works for Heartland/Cato, firms that are paid by fossil fuel interests. Follow the money my friend.

2hotel9
Reply to  C. Paul Pierett
October 11, 2018 5:28 pm

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!! You so funny! Try again, loser.

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 5:28 pm

Tillman, you and everyone else here that are skeptical of the current science of AGW are actually providing a great service to the theory of AGW. Your complains and investigations only find the weak points in the theory, which are useful to modifying the theory, and improving it. The only problem you have is that no matter how hard skeptics have tried, they have never falsified AGW.

2hotel9
Reply to  C. Paul Pierett
October 11, 2018 5:39 pm

Let me simplify this for you, since clearly you have issues understanding simple things. The climate changes, constantly, humans are not causing it and can not stop it. Period. Full stop. Your apocalyptic religious fixation on your own imoprtance is not helping the human race, over all, and is in fact hurting us. Let me guess? You support Planned Parenthood?

John Tillman
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 5:32 pm

Paul,

Well, smoking hasn’t caused cancer in his case yet. He was born in 1940.

Lindzen works for Heartland because of his scientific conclusions. He doesn’t hold those conclusion because he works for that institution.

Could be wrong, but IMO Michael Mann and other alarmists have gotten more money from Bog Oil than any skeptic.

In any case, yours is an ad hominem argument. The fact remains that Lindzen is an eminent, genuine climatologist, well acquainted with “climate scientists”, ie knowing what they say and do, which causes him to have a low opinion of their work. Can’t comment on his opinion of his lesser colleagues personally.

John Tillman
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 5:40 pm

C. Paul Pierett October 11, 2018 at 5:28 pm

AGW was born falsified by reality. Earth warmed coming out of the LIA from the mid-19th century, without benefit of greatly increased CO2. The early 20th century warming cycle was indistinguishable from the late 20th century cycle.

For the first 32 years after CO2 took off after WWII, Earth cooled dramatically, indeed to such an extent that by the 1970s, scientists were worried about global cooling. Then, in 1977, the PDO flipped, and the planet warmed slightly for about 20 years, until the 1998 super El Nino, or shortly before it. Next, Earth’s temperature, to the extent that it can be measured, stayed flat for another ~20 years, until the 2016 super El Nino. Since it peaked, the planet is back to cooling. All these down, up and sideways trends while CO2 rose steadily.

Sea level rose during the added CO2 interval at the same rate as it had since the depths of the LIA, c. AD 1690. While Arctic sea ice was in a declining cycle from its century high in the late ’70s, Antarctic sea ice was growing alarmingly. Hence, no CO2 signal.

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 5:42 pm

Tillman, Heartland would not pay him if he came up with the opposite “conclusions.”

2hotel9
Reply to  C. Paul Pierett
October 11, 2018 5:49 pm

Actually they would, they are not leftist scumbags. They pay for results, not predetermined outcomes.

John Tillman
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 5:49 pm

C. Paul Pierett October 11, 2018 at 5:42 pm

Lindzen formed his conclusions long before joining Heartland.

Any honest atmospheric physicist would come to the same conclusions, or physicist in general, such as Will Happer, Freeman Dyson or Ivar Giaever, not beholden to the climatariat for career advancement.

The human contribution to CO2-caused warming is negligible and more plant food in the air is beneficial to life on Earth.

2hotel9
Reply to  John Tillman
October 11, 2018 5:52 pm

Oop, there it is. CO2 is not pollution, it is a basic component of life on this planet.

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 5:54 pm

2hotel9, I’ll use “simple” language so you can understand what I’m saying. You are 100% correct when you say that “humans are not causing it and can not stop it.”
..
..
However humans can influence the climate and that is exactly what AGW is saying. It says our emissions of CO2 are warming the earth. Humans do not “CAUSE” climate, they “INFLUENCE” it.

Get it?
..
Oh, and I have no idea what you mean by “stopping it.”

2hotel9
Reply to  C. Paul Pierett
October 11, 2018 6:04 pm

Yes, I get it! You are not going to forsake your religion simply because of facts. Again, since you are so dense, HUMANS ARE NOT CAUSING CLIMATE TO CHANGE, AND CAN NOT STOP IT FROM CHANGING. Period. Full stop. Destroying energy production, agriculture and manufacturing across the globe is simply, there is that word again, stupid. Only a leftist, well, idiot, would advocate such stupidity. And that is all the envirotard movement is about.

John Tillman
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 6:02 pm

Paul,

Hotel was referring to “climate change”, not climate. He wrote, “The climate changes, constantly, humans are not causing it and can not stop it. Period. Full stop.”

By “it”, he clearly meant “changes”, although in his sentence, that’s a verb rather than a noun. But, still, his meaning was pretty plain to me.

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 6:12 pm

Tillman says: “Earth warmed coming out of the LIA from the mid-19th century, without benefit of greatly increased CO2.”
….
Why did it do that?

How do you explain it?

John Tillman
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 6:33 pm

C. Paul Pierett October 11, 2018 at 6:12 pm

Thanks for asking.

Real climatologists have observed that Earth has naturally occurring climatic cycles within secular trends that are also cyclic. This is true at many time scales from decades to tens of millions of years.

The causes of some cycles are known fairly well, while others are less understood and controversial. For the centennial to millennial scale cycles, many propose periods of more or less solar activity.

The LIA, for example, suffered three or four (depending upon when you date its start) solar minima. (Major volcanic activity has also been cited, but not convincingly.) So, by the solar hypothesis, all that the LIA needed to end and for the Modern Warming Period to begin was decades of solar maxima, without any minima.

The Holocene, like other interglacials, enjoyed an early Climate Optimum of prolonged warming, followed for the past ~5000 years, by cyclic peaks of warming alternating with troughs of cooling, within a general cooling trend. Some would date the cooling from the end of the Minoan Warm Period (~3 Ka) rather than the end of the Holocene Climatic Optimum (~5 Ka), since the Egyptian WP (~4 Ka) reached about the same top temperature as the HCO.

Peak Roman WP (~2 Ka) warmth was lower than for the Minoan WP, and the Medieval WP (~1 Ka) was cooler still. So far the Modern WP has also been cooler than the Medieval, but man-made CO2 might interrupt this trend.

Between the warm periods are cool periods of approximately equal length. The LIA was probably colder than those which preceded it, although some say that the Dark Ages CP was cooler.

But whatever the cause, it’s clear that prior warming cycles have lasted longer and gained more in temperature than the late 20th century warming. IOW, nothing unusual is happening with Earth’s climate. Hence, the null hypothesis can’t be rejected.

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 7:25 pm

Tillman says: ” So far the Modern WP has also been cooler than the Medieval”

You have a serious problem making that statement. Since thermometers did not exist during the Medieval period, you must base your assertion on proxy measurements of temperature. If you accept the validity of proxy measurements, then you must accept Mann’s hockey stick. If you disavow Mann’s hockey stick and all of the subsequent studies confirming his work, then you disavow any/all proxies that say the Medieval is warmer.
..
You are caught between a rock and a hard place with that assertion.

John Tillman
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 7:42 pm

C. Paul Pierett October 11, 2018 at 7:25 pm

Nope. Seated quite comfortably, actually.

The problem with Mann’s HS was with his misuse of proxies, not with proxies in general. Trees aren’t thermometers. Tree ring width is subject to too many variables beside T to be used as such.

But that problem was only the beginning of all the things wrong with the HS.

So far, no fifty year period in the Modern WP has equaled, let alone exceeded, the three warmest such intervals during the Medieval WP. The period 1951 to 2000 might have come close. Our current 2001-50 may or may not equal one of the peak heat intervals of the Medieval. It’ll depend of course on what happens over the next 32 years.

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 7:56 pm

Tillman, there does not exist any reconstruction using any proxy that shows the Medieval period to be warmer than today. If you disagree please post a link to the global reconstruction that show this not to be the case.

In fact carbon dating of exposed organic material at the terminus of melting glaciers DO NOT DATE back to the Medieval time period.

Two strikes against you.

John Tillman
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 8:00 pm

C. Paul Pierett October 11, 2018 at 7:56 pm

You are mistaken. From 1994, but still relevant. There are lots of other such papers.

GLACIAL GEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE MEDIEVAL WARM PERIOD

http://ruby.fgcu.edu/courses/twimberley/envirophilo/glacial.pdf

Abstract. It is hypothesised that the Medieval Warm Period was preceded and
followed by periods of moraine deposition associated with glacier expansion.
Improvements in the methodology of radiocarbon calibration make it possible
to convert radiocarbon ages to calendar dates with greater precision than was
previously possible. Dating of organic material closely associated with moraines
in many montane regions has reached the point where it is possible to survey
available information concerning the timing of the medieval warm period. The
results suggest that it was a global event occurring between about 900 and 1250
A.D., possibly interrupted by a minor readvance of ice between about 1050 and
1150 A.D.

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 8:23 pm

Tillman, your cited paper does not claim (as you do) that the Medieval period was warmer than present.

However, it is apparent that you did not read the cited paper. Specifically section 5 (page 149) states: ” The bulk of detailed research has been carried out in Europe.”

Now….got anything that is GLOBAL?


For example below my quote(same page) they say: ” But regions such as the southern Andes or the Canadian Rockies contain thousands of glaciers which have never been examined”

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 8:39 pm

What is notable in your cited paper TIllman is that it is plagued by confirmation bias. Seems to exclude places such as Glacier National Park and Yellowstone which does not date back to the Medieval Period.

.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/melting-ice-yellowstone-revealing-ancient-artifacts-180956488/
.

Editor
Reply to  MarkW
October 11, 2018 11:00 pm

C. Paul Pierett write:
October 11, 2018 at 5:22 pm

> Lindzen doesn’t believe tobacco causes cancer. He smokes during his lectures.

Do you have a better reference? I think high fructose corn syrup causes some health issues. I also drink Coca-Cola.

The URL includes a letter from Lindzen on the topic:

https://www.climateconversation.org.nz/2011/05/lindzen-dismisses-hansens-defamations/

“I have always noted, having read the literature on the matter, that there was a reasonable case for the role of cigarette smoking in lung cancer, but that the case was not so strong that one should rule that any questions were out of order. I think that the precedent of establishing a complex statistical finding as dogma is a bad one. Among other things, it has led to the much, much weaker case against second hand smoke also being treated as dogma. Similarly, in the case of alleged dangerous anthropogenic warming, the status of dogma is being sought without any verifiable evidence.”

MarkW
Reply to  MarkW
October 12, 2018 7:18 am

and CPP once again reveals himself to be a hypocrite of the first order.

How do you know that this is the only place I ever frequent?

Once again, the alarmist can’t help but assume that people disagree with it because of ignorance.

MarkW
Reply to  MarkW
October 12, 2018 7:21 am

Once again CPP demonstrates that he is incapable of arguing honestly.
Lindzen’s comment was regarding second hand smoke, not cigarettes in general.
CPP, do you ever tire of being an A*hole?

MarkW
Reply to  MarkW
October 12, 2018 7:23 am

A yes, CPP the hypocrite claims that anyone who receives even a penny of money from fossil fuel companies is completely tainted and can never be believed on anything.
On the other hand, if you receive your money from government or other groups who seek to gain from the power that the control of fossil fuels will give them is a saint and can’t be questions.

MarkW
Reply to  MarkW
October 12, 2018 7:25 am

CPP, the number of scientists who have been fired for not supporting the AGW myth is legion. As always you are a hypocrite.

MarkW
Reply to  MarkW
October 12, 2018 7:27 am

CPP whines:

Why did it do that?

How do you explain it?

**************
Answer, there are a number of theories. In any case it doesn’t matter, it’s up to you to prove that whatever caused this other warming isn’t causing the current warming before you get to declare that the current warming must be caused by CO2.

That’s how science works. Not that you care.

MarkW
Reply to  MarkW
October 12, 2018 7:30 am

Once again, CPP demonstrates that
1) He has no idea what the position of skeptics is.
2) He has no idea how actual science works.

The objections to Mann’s graph is not that proxies are no good, it’s that tree rings aren’t a proxy for temperature.
It’s also that Mann used invalid statistical methods.

If you knew half as much as you think you do, you might be able to claim to be intelligent.

Michael Jankowski
Reply to  MarkW
October 12, 2018 10:09 am

“…Lindzen doesn’t believe tobacco causes cancer…”

There is hearsay that he found the association to be “weak” 20 yrs ago or more and that he had issues with some studies. Where is a direct quote from Lindzen saying he doesn’t believe it causes cancer, period?

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  MarkW
October 12, 2018 10:23 am

“How do you know that this is the only place I ever frequent?”

Because your mindset doesn’t allow you to understand what is discussed at a real science site.

And it’s apparent from the five or six replies to me that you are obsessed.
..
Thank you, and welcome to my fan club.

MarkW
Reply to  MarkW
October 12, 2018 12:32 pm

So CPP the hypocrite is now able to read minds.

As always, he’s convinced that everyone who disagrees with him is an idiot.
He just can’t let go of that conviction.

That just makes him a typical liberal.

MarkW
Reply to  MarkW
October 12, 2018 12:34 pm

Fascinating. You make over a dozen posts.
I respond to about half those posts, and according to you I’m obsessed with you.
It’s always about you, isn’t it.

John Tillman
Reply to  C. Paul Pierett
October 11, 2018 4:53 pm

Paul,

What’s your opinion of Dr. Hansen’s claim that Earth is on the Venus Express, and that man-made global warming could cause the oceans to boil?

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  John Tillman
October 11, 2018 5:11 pm

No opinion.

John Tillman
Reply to  John Tillman
October 11, 2018 5:14 pm

Paul,

Thanks for your non-opinion.

My opinion is that Hansen’s conclusion is, to say the least, not warranted and not supported by the evidence, hence invalid. Even most of his fellow alarmists don’t share his catastrophic conclusion.

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  John Tillman
October 11, 2018 5:32 pm

You are welcome for my non-opinon. I would also like to point out that I don’t care what your opinion is. The reason I don’t care is because your opinion is worthless.

Reg Nelson
Reply to  C. Paul Pierett
October 11, 2018 5:09 pm

“MarkW, you have no clue as to the caliber of people that study and accept AGW” ~ C. Paul Pierett

Can’t speak for Mark, but I can certainly speak for myself.

The Climategate emails revealed that people who accept this — the leaders in this field of “science” were\are highly corrupt. Corrupted by politics — conspiring to ignore FOIA requests, they conspired to delete emails, delete data and model programming code, conspired to corrupt the peer review process and blackballing scientists who had the temerity to question the status quo.

What caliber of people are they?

And why would anyone in their sane mind believe them and bankrupt their futures, and their children’s future on such nonsense?

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  Reg Nelson
October 11, 2018 5:37 pm

Basing your opinion on stolen property (emails) is not a recommended course of action. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but seeing that the stolen emails didn’t prove anything, carry on.

2hotel9
Reply to  C. Paul Pierett
October 11, 2018 5:48 pm

OHOOOOOO!!!! So, the Mafia can do what it wishes because intercepting their communications is “uncool”? Hahahahahaha!!!!!! Sweetheart? Since their work and lines of communication are paid for by me, taxpayer, we have full authority to audit ever word and digit. Don’t like that? Don’t take my money and then lie to me. That just makes them prostitutes, same as lawyers.

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  Reg Nelson
October 11, 2018 6:00 pm

2hotel9 if you are trying to make a point, what is it?

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  Reg Nelson
October 11, 2018 6:04 pm

2hotel9, since the emails were stolen, how can you guarantee authenticity lacking a provable chain of custody? Do you know what “chain of custody” means?

John Tillman
Reply to  Reg Nelson
October 11, 2018 6:07 pm

C. Paul Pierett October 11, 2018 at 6:00 pm

Again, it’s clear to me what Hotel is saying.

He points out that emails among workers at public institutions should be public property. As you may know, the emails were assembled because the UEA was under a FOIA request, which they fought tooth and nail, yet apparently expected to lose the battle.

Before HadCRU was ordered by a court to make the emails public, someone leaked them. They thus weren’t stolen but made public sooner than Phil Jones wanted, since he wanted to keep them secret in the first place. Just like his “data”. IOW, his attitude was antiscientific.

John Tillman
Reply to  Reg Nelson
October 11, 2018 6:09 pm

C. Paul Pierett October 11, 2018 at 6:04 pm

UAE admitted that the emails were genuine.

C. Paul Pierett
Reply to  Reg Nelson
October 11, 2018 7:31 pm

Tillman, the same people that have determined that the emails are “authentic” are the same people that have absolved the scientists from fraud, deception or any other irregularity. So, if you accept them as “authentic” you must also accept that they show no malfeasance.

If you disagree with me, please post a link to any criminal/civil/administrative action taken against any of the email composers to punish them for their action(s).

John Tillman
Reply to  Reg Nelson
October 11, 2018 7:50 pm

C. Paul Pierett October 11, 2018 at 7:31 pm

Nope. UAE said the emails were authentic. You can’t expect UAE and HadCRU, ie Phil Jones, to exonerate itself and themselves.

The various inquiries and reports on the emails’ content were a whitewash, yet still found some serious problems:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy#Inquiries_and_reports

Mann’s HS however was thoroughly eviscerated by other analyses, such as McIntyre and McKittrick.

http://www.multi-science.co.uk/mcintyre-mckitrick.pdf

I failed to mention regarding paleoclimatic data, that we don’t need to compare paleo proxies with thermometers. We can compare proxies with the same data for today.

MarkW
Reply to  Reg Nelson
October 12, 2018 7:33 am

Once again CPP demonstrates that he is so desperate that he will latch onto any excuse to dismiss data that doesn’t support his religion.
1) There is no evidence that the e-mails were stolen. What little evidence does exist leans towards them being leaked by an insider.

2) The e-mails have been confirmed as being authentic by many of the people named in them.

Now deal with the facts.

u.k.(us)
Reply to  C. Paul Pierett
October 11, 2018 5:12 pm

You’ve got the perfect forum, light moderation if any, educate us.
We are here to learn, so teach us.

Chris Hanley
October 11, 2018 2:41 pm

Whiskey’s recursive ‘Droste effect’-type argument that skeptics cannot be genuine skeptics because they are not skeptical of skepticism is reductio ad absurdum.