Putting The Hype Back Into Hyperloop

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

A recent article has discussed how Elon Musk’s “Boring Company” has raised $113 million dollars in startup capital. This is the company Musk formed to drill the tunnels for his proposed “Hyperloop” transportation system. It has encouraged me to discuss some of the engineering and practical problems with his LA-to-San Francisco Hyperloop proposal. The Hyperloop concept involves a windowless “pod” traveling at just below the speed of sound in a tube with all the air evacuated from it. There’s a reasonable description of the Hyperloop at Wikipedia and a much more hyper description at their website. It all sounds so good and so 21st Century, what’s not to like?

In no particular order, the problems with the Hyperloop include:

Vacuum: The Hyperloop requires a near-perfect vacuum to run at the proposed speeds. It has been tested with a one-kilometer long test track. The test track was billed as the “second largest vacuum chamber in the world”, after the vacuum chamber of the Large Hadron Collider.

hyperloop one.png

But the LA-to-SF route is 615 km. This is a huge, almost unimaginable step up in size and problems. Consider that although the LHC is carefully internally braced to keep the pressure from collapsing it, they’ve said the Hyperloop tube will be a 1″ thick steel pipe supported on pillars. There’s no way to brace it internally, the pod has to run through the middle. The day/night expansion on that much steel would be very large, and the expansion joints for that use have never been built. In addition, atmospheric pressure on the tube would be about ten tonnes per square metre … and there’s a 15-tonne “pod” running through it, putting large stresses on all bends and joints.

This means that if the vacuum is breached for any reason, say a car runs into one of the pillars, or some fool shoots an high-powered rifle round at an expansion joint, or terrorists place even a small bomb anywhere along the length of the route, or a small thermally driven “kink” in the pipe develops, or heck, a ubiquitous California earthquake, everyone in the tube would die from the instantaneous deceleration. Here’s what happens to a railroad tank car with ~ 1/2 inch (12 mm) steel walls when it is not properly vented … it collapses from nothing more than the atmospheric pressure, and that is without a near-perfect vacuum inside.

 

Ooogh … you don’t want to be inside if that happens.

Thermal Expansion II: A difference of only 3°C from the top to the bottom of the tube will cause differential expansion of about 25 metres from top to bottom of the pipe over the length of the SF-to-LA run … very no bueno. The pipe will tend to either lift out of its supports or bend at the expansion joints … joints with a 15-tonne pod going through them at 750 mph.

Energy: The pumps necessary to keep the tube evacuated will be quite large. Remember that each pod has to be air-locked in and out at every station. The energy cost of this constant pumping at each station is unknown, but definitely not small.

Pod Integrity: The pod will be in near total vacuum. Airplanes fly at about 33,000 feet (10,000 m). The pods will be traveling at the equivalent of 50,000 feet (15,000 m). This means that if there is the slightest leak, there will be catastrophic decompression and everyone in the pod will likely die.

Hyperloop two.png

Passenger Throughput: This is likely the biggest problem with the Hyperloop—for all of its speed, it is remarkably slow at actually moving people. Consider the competing technologies. Freeways typically carry 2,000 cars per hour per lane, that’s maybe 3,000 people per lane per hour. So a four-lane freeway of the type common in California will carry about 12,000 people per hour.

A subway with three-minute headways between cars will carry about 36,000 passengers per hour. The proposed and insanely expensive high-speed “Bullet Train To Nowhere”, which Governor Moonbeam is trying to build fro LA to San Francisco will carry on the order of 12,000 people per hour.

Now, Musk claims that a pod will depart SF-to-LA and LA-to-SF every 30 seconds carrying 28 people per pod. That’s the best case, and it’s only 3,300 passengers per hour.

But wait, as they say on TV, there’s more. In general, you don’t want to run cars, trains, subway cars, or Hyperloop pods so close together that they can’t stop safely in case of an emergency to the car ahead. Humans can only sustain about half the force of gravity, called “0.5 G”, for safe deceleration. Musk says the cars will be traveling about 760 mph (1225 km per hour). At that speed, it will take around 75 seconds at 0.5 G to decelerate to a stop. So the inter-pod time has to be at least 80 seconds … and that means passenger throughput drops to 1,260 passengers per hour.

And the bad news doesn’t end there. The whole system can only run as fast as the slowest segment of the Hyperloop, and that’s the stations. Remember, at every station, the pods need to be depressurized. Then passengers need to get on and get off, and the pods need to be repressurized. Musk says that up to three pods will be in the stations at once. So that means that depressurization, passenger unloading and reloading, and re-pressurization need to take place in about two and a half to three minutes … and you better hope that nobody forgets anything on a pod and has to go back to get it, or the entire system slows down.

Net result? The Hyperloop will make less than half the difference in passengers transported, and likely much less than half the difference, that would be made by adding a single lane to the LA to SF freeway …

In Short: The Hyperloop is extremely dangerous to passengers, vulnerable to a host of problems, will kill everyone inside if even a small failure happens, moves a very small number of people, and oh, I forgot to mention … what happens if the power fails, as happens these days in California all the time because of our insane renewable mandates pushed by our less-than-genius Governor, Jerry Brown. Care to think about being stuck inside a windowless pod inside a steel pipe on a hot day in the California desert, with no way to escape?

And all of that for less gain than adding a single lane to the freeway … but there is one thing we can be sure of.

Elon Musk will get even richer from government subsidies for his latest whiz-bang proposal … truly, the man is a subsidy artist. Where most of us can see nothing but government boondoggle and waste, he sees personal wealth.

My best to all,

w.

THE USUAL: When you comment please quote the exact words you are discussing, so that we can all understand your subject. In addition, rather than telling me or anyone that we are doing something wrong, please demonstrate the right way to do it.

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Nels
April 18, 2018 4:49 pm

In today’s environment, building something so sensitive to manpad missiles with shaped charges is beyond foolish. I’m with Elon in thinking it neat and wonderful, but we aren’t in that Star Trek peaceful future yet.

upcountrywater
April 18, 2018 4:50 pm

Add a few new AIRPORTS and enlarge some of the others, The total land use will be less than hundreds of miles of right of way needed for tube or rail trains..
Have fleets of helicopters using helipads, like in LA in the 50’s..
For the future, file flight plans over the ocean for some supersonic flying..
Remember this is what liberals want to use trains for.Note also for crude oil, no pipelines.comment image

April 18, 2018 4:53 pm

sounds like you watched thunderfoot.

commieBob
April 18, 2018 5:09 pm

Robert Heinlein wrote a story, The Roads Must Roll. It features a network of parallel moving sidewalks. Passengers would load at the outside and move to progressively faster sidewalks. They would ultimately work up to a sidewalk moving at 100 mph.
After reading Willis’ article and the comments above, Heinlein’s idea seems eminently practical in comparison with Tesla’s idea. For sure it would move orders of magnitude more passengers.

Don K
April 18, 2018 5:17 pm

Willis, You started off with the Boring Company, and sorted of segued into Hyperloop. My impression was and is that while the Boring Company could be used to ream out hyperloop tunnels, Musk really had something simpler and slower in mind. I’m not sold on urban tunneling. Huge permitting problems. And too much poorly documented infrastructure under cities. The latter turned out to be a huge problem in Seattle when a boring machine trying to dig a two mile tunnel to replace the aging Alaska Way Viaduct hit a steel pipe and was stuck for TWO YEARS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaskan_Way_Viaduct_replacement_tunnel.
But there seem to be cases where tunneling looks like the best of a bunch of bad choices. For example connecting downtown Chicago to O’hare airport. There aren’t a lot of companies that can manage a tunnel like that. It may be that the Boring Company (sans Hyperloop) is actually a viable business.

Nigel S
Reply to  Don K
April 19, 2018 8:02 am

That’s an impressive TBM! The smaller twin tunnels under East London for UK HS1 worked out OK. 2 x 7.15m diameter 19km long. At least one back garden disappeared overnight but not the houses luckily!
https://www.arup.com/projects/high-speed-1
http://www.tunnelsonline.info/news/ground-collapse-above-ctrl

April 18, 2018 5:28 pm

Hyperloop One Test:comment image

commieBob
Reply to  Vic Logan
April 19, 2018 5:23 am

I was curious so I assume others will also be curious. It’s from the movie ‘Contact’. link

charles nelson
April 18, 2018 5:40 pm

I can’t be the only person who thinks that Elon Mush is a fantasist?

observa
April 18, 2018 5:41 pm

Well spotted with vacuums in cylinders and vacuous humans inside them but my Superlative Spherical Storage Company has the shortcomings licked with the appropriate seed capital to save the planet. As you know there’s a wee problem with unreliable wind for the turbines so Superlative Spherical Storage is desperately needed. With large enough spheres surrounded by a circle of wind turbines when the wind blows hard they would additionally drive vacuum pumps to evacuate the sphere and when the wind is low the valves would be opened for the inrush of air to drive the wind turbines again. As you know this is all settled science and just needs a few grants to sort out the best plumbing arrangements, etc but first up a meeting of the minds in the Maldives to get the balls really rolling.

Michael Jankowski
April 18, 2018 5:45 pm

This makes me think of the Schlitterbahn ride in KC.

Schrecken
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 18, 2018 7:26 pm

Yeah, it kinda does, now that you mention that. And of course we know what became of that ride – and the men who designed it (well, OK, they’ve only been charged and haven’t yet gone to trial). However, neither of the two men who designed the ride had any background in engineering. One would hope that wouldn’t be the case for a hyperloop, should it ever be built!

Foyle
April 18, 2018 6:16 pm

I are a mechanical engineer. I think the problems are far smaller than you suggest and there is far too many people wading in on this who are consulting only their intuition rather than informed assessment.
-The tube can be easily constrained against thermal deflection by supports at 50-100m spacings, like high speed rails (it is like a wire 300000x longer than it is in diameter), slight longitudinal compression or expansion is not a big deal, +/-20°C gives only about +/-40MPa, an order of magnitude below the strength of the steel, and the curves are exceedingly gentle – probably >20km radius to reduce g-loads so that lateral buckling forces from these stresses are very very low. They can either be purely constrained by supports or accommodated by hermetically sealed welded metal bellows joints over overlapping steel tube expansion joints.
-Leakage will be almost non-existent, so vac pumping average power will be very low (outside of pump down events after maintenance), Air-locks can have cm-close fitting solid blocks around pods to reduce pumping, or be filled with low-vapour pressure vacuum oil in a 10m high u-tube type manometer arrangement to eliminate vacuum pumping entirely using hydrostatic pressure.
-Buckling failure is a non-issue, 1inch thick walls are rigid as hell, and rigidity scales with cube of thickness. If super paranoid add circumferential ribs, or spiral weld tube in situ from a pre-ribbed strip. I’ve used 2m dia vac industrial chambers constructed with 12mm walls for years.
-Steel is ridiculously cheap, $0.3/kg in bulk, so tubes are 20km radius curvature (holding lateral acceleration to <0.5g at Mach 1).

s-t
Reply to  Foyle
April 18, 2018 7:50 pm

“the curves are exceedingly gentle – probably >20km radius”
Where do you find >20km radius-flat terrains?
“in a 10m high u-tube type manometer arrangement ”
I don’t see it. Could you please post a drawing?

Khwarizmi
April 18, 2018 6:34 pm

“Self-flying aircraft will make this scheme and high-speed trains unnecessary.
– Chimp
Not exactly a novel idea.
1988. – “This is the first fully automated plane, flown by a computer”:

s-t
Reply to  Khwarizmi
April 18, 2018 7:52 pm

It was a human who decided to make a demonstration at very low altitude, low power, high AoA!!!
(And yes there are certainly issues with the Airbus computer system, but the accident does not demonstrates that.)

Reply to  s-t
April 20, 2018 5:07 pm

It was the crew that persisted in ignoring the aircraft’s computer that was telling them to pull up – apply more power – they were going to crash. It was right and they were wrong.

s-t
Reply to  s-t
April 21, 2018 9:47 pm

No, they applied more power, and the computer did not immediately.
There is also a big “ideation” to exchange the recorders, obstruct justice, etc. to preserve Airbus reputation. This was a terrible scandal in France and proved that French authorities could only be trusted to obstruct justice and destroy evidence, as they still do.

Chimp
Reply to  Khwarizmi
April 19, 2018 1:02 pm

AI software has gone through a number of generations in the past 30 years, evolved rapidly and now is at least as good as humans. There can always be a remote, joystick-equipped human in the loop if need be.
If software and sensors allow the USN’s MQ-25 Stingray stealthy autonomous tanker/attack drone to trap on a carrier deck, it can land on land without trouble. It’s catapulted off the carrier, but with a longer take off roll, it was tested on land.

Chimp
Reply to  Khwarizmi
April 19, 2018 1:10 pm

Not to mention autonomous commuter drone tech from three years ago, air and ground:

Toto
April 18, 2018 6:43 pm

Wasn’t there a Bond movie where he rides in a capsule inside a pipeline?

Ragnaar
April 18, 2018 7:01 pm

A partial vacuum. If 2/3s of the air was removed, it seems wind resistance would down to 1/3 of normal. Jetliners fly where this less air rather than using bigger engines.

Reply to  Ragnaar
April 19, 2018 12:30 am

see the white paper.

flyfisher
April 18, 2018 7:52 pm

Dumb question from a non-engineer. Is there a problem with passenger movement within the hyper loop vehicle while it is “running”? Passengers standing, bouncing their legs, any of this a problem inside a vacuum? For some reason I’m thinking about when kids ride the elevators down and start jumping up and down (like the scene in Big).

s-t
Reply to  flyfisher
April 18, 2018 8:13 pm

“Is there a problem with passenger movement within the hyper loop vehicle”
Probably not; according to the article:
“there’s a 15-tonne “pod” running through it”
And then it’s guided – by some unspecified method. (Almost every technical detail is unspecified, or specified in contradicting ways, that’s my main criticism.)
For comparison, the ascent stage of the Apollo LM was only 4,700 kg according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Lunar_Module#Ascent_stage

Reply to  s-t
April 19, 2018 12:32 am

looks like you didnt read.

StandupPhilosopher
April 18, 2018 8:01 pm

Hyperloop is the cold fusion of transportation ( and the hot fusion ) if people only believed enough we will see fantastic results in 20 years.

s-t
April 18, 2018 8:02 pm

@Willis Eschenbach
@mods
“The pods will be traveling at the equivalent of 50,000 feet (15,000 m).
I believe this is incorrect. Very, very wrong, actually.
https://hyperloop-one.com/facts-frequently-asked-questions says

We’re designing and constructing the tube and pods explicitly to handle down to 100 Pa of pressure or more (equivalent to air pressure at 200,000 feet above sea level),

This is a big difference!

s-t
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 18, 2018 9:15 pm

For static behavior, it makes very little difference for either the tube or the pods, both will have pretty much 1 atm pressure difference. (The discussion of the difference of differentials is ridiculous, the difference in pressure between two difference days is much greater than that.)
The issue is supersonic air flow around the pod and the rapid variation of pressure implied. The buildup of air in front of the pod at that speed will be an issue.

April 18, 2018 8:11 pm

“truly, the man is a subsidy artist”

That may be correct assessment, Willis; but I think “artist” is the wrong word there.

s-t
April 18, 2018 8:39 pm

“There’s a reasonable description of the Hyperloop at Wikipedia and a much more hyper description at their website.”
The two big design proposed are:
– an air levitation design
– a magnetic levitation design
Not sure what counts as “Hyperloop”! There are many ideas thrown randomly with relatively few technical details in common. (“low pressure tube” is a vague hint, not a technical detail)
Two sources on Hyperloop design are given in the article: WP and Hyperloop One website.
According to the WP article:

In Musk’s original concept, each capsule floats on a 0.02–0.05 in (0.5–1.3 mm) layer of air provided under pressure to air-caster “skis”, similar to how pucks are suspended in an air hockey table

According to Hyperloop One website:

The vehicle floats above the track using magnetic levitation and glides at airline speeds for long distances due to ultra-low aerodynamic drag

What are we even discussing here?
“The Hyperloop concept involves a windowless “pod” traveling at just below the speed of sound in a tube with all the air evacuated from it.”
I just can’t get my head around that: how can people discuss that as a subsonic transportation when it is clear that the airflow around the pod will have to be supersonic? How does air behave in that case?

tty
Reply to  s-t
April 19, 2018 12:40 am

“glides at airline speeds for long distances due to ultra-low aerodynamic drag”
I wonder how that is going to be accomplished. Magnetic levitation does get rid of mechanic friction and since the vehicle has no wings or fins there will be no induced drag, but the parasitic drag moving at airline speed close to the ground will be very large. As a matter of fact it will be worse than for a low-flying aircraft because the vehicle will be only inches off the surface and there will be a lot of interference drag.

StandupPhilosopher
Reply to  s-t
April 19, 2018 1:16 am

The speed of sound is related to air density. In an evacuated chamber like the Hyperloop is supposed to be in, the speed of sound and supersonic shockwaves will be dramtically reduced. What everyone keeps refering to as the speed of sound is the speed of sound at sea level, aprox. 700mph, which it definitely won’t be inside the tube.

rocketplumber
Reply to  StandupPhilosopher
April 19, 2018 6:26 am

No, the speed of sound in gases is determined only by the molecular weight and the temperature. Pressure is irrelevant.

s-t
Reply to  StandupPhilosopher
April 20, 2018 10:29 am

What will be the temperature inside the tube when the air is pumped out the first time?

TMLutas
April 18, 2018 8:43 pm

I think that Elon Musk is a modern day Charles Yerkes. He’s both capable of delivering very real results that far surpass what his critics think is possible and simultaneously perfectly comfortable flimflamming his way past competitors, both real and potential. I think you’re spotting the flimflam, kudos for that, but are distracted by it nonetheless so you’re not seeing what’s really going on. I’m not sure what’s going on either, but I think that I see some real situations where his Boring Company actually has a practical route to profitability.
Charles Yerkes pushed and prodded the city of Chicago into allowing the creation of the Chicago Loop.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-flash-yerkes-elevated-train-loop-0910-story.html

Reply to  TMLutas
April 18, 2018 11:02 pm

He’s a charming scam artist, Solar City is a massive joke, Hyperloop is a massive joke and Tesla is asking for volunteers to help them meet production targets 😀

April 18, 2018 9:52 pm

I think it’s actually intended for use on Mars.

April 18, 2018 11:00 pm

Mathematics makes a mockery of this Hyperloop folks.
Atm Muskrat is stripping down a Tesla, and trying to make it go not quite as fast as a high speed train, but it’s just a Tesla stripped down to nuts and bolts with wheels and no driver 😀
Furthermore, the stripped down Tesla will be the equivalent of a truck doing 60mph and the rail inside the tube that this will run alone, looks rather flimsy for such a load.
Then there is the types, rusted, and so weak that they can’t even retain their shape under their own weight, and this test will run in a citycomment image?

Reply to  Mark - Helsinki
April 18, 2018 11:03 pm

Then there is the “tubes”

April 18, 2018 11:05 pm

Also, this can only go in a straight line 😀 LMAO
We already have those high speed trains, Musk reinventing the wheel, by putting expensive corners on it

April 18, 2018 11:15 pm
Ian Macdonald
April 18, 2018 11:48 pm

Claustrophobia could be a problem.
https://youtu.be/YtktNetGOKU?t=77