Monitoring Twitter, a number of people are reporting some download sites aren’t working. So, since WUWT has been setup to handle such things (Climategate for example) here is the memo in full. Some might say “Why is WUWT getting into the polictical mess that has nothing to do with climate?”.
Well, if you monitor Twitter like I do, you’ll see that many of the major players in climate alarmism are Tweeting about it. I figure if Michael Mann can rail about it…
…the least I can do is provide a link for the document.
370598711-House-Intelligence-Committee-Report-On-FISA-Abuses (PDF)
(updated to include Mann’s Tweet)
For those less informed on this topic let me summarize:
1) A salacious anti-trump dossier was paid for by operatives of the Clinton campaign, preceding and during the USA presidential campaign of 2017.
2) It was delivered to democrat operatives in the Obama administrations FBI and DOJ by cats-paw John McCain.
3) The uncorroborated dossier, asserting ‘russian collusion with Trump campaign personnel’, was used to corruptly secure a secret FISA court surveillance warrant.
4) The corrupted FISA warrant was used for surveillance of the Trump campaign and nominee/president elect/President Trump.
5) A now +1 year long investigation of ‘russian collusion with the Trump campaign’ by special council Robert Mueller was authorized by the corrupt FISA warrant, based on the uncorroborated anti-trump dossier.
6) Mueller staffed his investigation team with Obama and Clinton supporters, further demonstrating overt reliance on socialist democrat operatives and his own political bias.
7) The + 1 year of ‘investigation’ by the politically biased Mueller team has resulted in no published evidence of ‘russian collusion’. Nada. Zip. Nuthin. Zero…
The civil liberties of a host of American citizens have been violated by Obama and Clinton operatives colluding to create a salacious and patently false ‘russian dossier, corruptly securing a FISA surveillance warrant, and then illegally spying on employees of the Trump campaign, President-Elect Trump transition team, and President Trumps administration.
“High Crimes And Misdemeanors” indeed!
Why did they do it?
a) To keep Trump from being elected. FAIL.
b) To discredit the President-Elect Trump transition team. FAIL.
c) To cripple and destroy the President Trump administration. FAIL
F. A. I. L.
It wasn’t ‘russian collusion’ at all. It was Obama and Clinton operatives colluding to corrupt a presidential election and personally destroy political opponents. The politically motivated operatives that colluded in these ‘High Crimes’ must be indicted, tried, convicted, and incarcerated! Here lies the real ‘investigation’.
Yup. That about sums it up nicely. Same folks that brought you CAGW. Mann’s tweets suffice as evidence thereof.
C’mon Rud. “That sums it up nicely”? What it sums up is the conspiracy theory du jour, straight out of Fox News and Breitbart.
Both sides are guilty of this behavior. There seems to be no middle ground nor exercise of any common sense. A perfect sign of the times.
But if you choose to align yourself with one side or the other of this nonsense – well, it’s a free country.
ristvan, what do you know about the other evidence provided in support of the FISA application? Anything at all? You’re making a bunch of not very skeptical assumptions to reach the conclusion you have on the basis of Nunes’ memo, which he wrote without actually having read the FISA applications himself.
“Both sides are guilty of this behavior.”
Again, SJWs always project.
“Both sides are guilty of this behavior.”
Which FISA warrant was brought against any individual or volunteer of the Obama or Clinton election teams by the previous administration’s top DOJ and/or FBI brass on the sole basis of “We JUST don’t like him”, for the sole purpose of undermining that duly elected individual’s term in office?
When did that happen again????
And don’t show yourself an utter moron by citing Nixon as an example…you insult our intelligence while belying your own.
“…which he wrote without actually having read the FISA applications himself.”
But Gowdy did, hence your objection is specious.
Scraft1,;just follow along tonight. You have already lost. Bigly.
sy computing said:
“But Gowdy did, hence your objection is specious.”
If I was going to write such a memo, I’d make sure that I actually read the FISA application myself.
Right now all we have is one mans opinion, without the necessary information to independently weigh up the claims fairly.
What was actually in the FISA application? I don’t know and neither do you. And the fact is that Page was being investigated long before the dossier existed. As early as 2013. The Russian spies who were trying to turn him into an asset were actually caught, and one of them jailed in the US.
“Philip Schaeffer February 2, 2018 at 8:49 pm
ristvan, what do you know about the other evidence provided in support of the FISA application? Anything at all? You’re making a bunch of not very skeptical assumptions to reach the conclusion you have on the basis of Nunes’ memo, which he wrote without actually having read the FISA applications himself.”
What we KNOW is:
“* The Steele dossier formed an essential part of the initial and all three renewal FISA applications against Carter Page.
* Andrew McCabe [Deputy Director of the FBI] confirmed that no FISA warrant would have been sought from the FISA Court without the Steele dossier information.
* The political origins of the Steele dossier were known to senior DOJ and FBI officials, but excluded from the FISA applications.
* DOJ official Bruce Ohr met with Steele beginning in the summer of 2016 and relayed to DOJ information about Steele’s bias. Steele told Ohr that he, Steele, was desperate that Donald Trump not get elected president and was passionate about him not becoming president.”
Not a material thing in the so called “Steele Dossier” has been corroborated by a reliable source despite the fact that “Dossier” has been out in the public for months.
So where’s the beef? Where is the probable cause required for the warrant and extension and to justify the designation of a special counsel for an investigation? Nothing in the public square justifies either and the evidence we have now clearly indicates that the neither the FBI or the DOJ have operated in compliance with the law.
Both sides are guilty of this behavior?
Do you have any evidence to support that whine?
I also love the way you try to slime Fox and Breitbart. As always, it’s easier to attack the messenger since we both know you can’t attack the message.
They guy in charge of the investigation is on record as saying they couldn’t have gotten the warrant without the dossier.
Please to try to keep your evasions up to date.
sy computing said:
“But Gowdy did, hence your objection is specious.”
See here:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/02/02/read-the-nunesmemo-here/comment-page-1/#comment-2733644
RAH said:
“* The Steele dossier formed an essential part of the initial and all three renewal FISA applications against Carter Page.”
How do you know that?
“* Andrew McCabe [Deputy Director of the FBI] confirmed that no FISA warrant would have been sought from the FISA Court without the Steele dossier information.”
How do you know that? Exactly what did McCabe say?
‘* The political origins of the Steele dossier were known to senior DOJ and FBI officials, but excluded from the FISA applications.”
How do you know that? Exactly what did the FISA application say?
ristvan – so I’ve already lost? Lost to what, majority opinion on this thread?
Gimme a break. You’ve drunk Trump kool-aid and believe anything they say. Some skepticism.
“ristvan – so I’ve already lost? Lost to what, majority opinion on this thread?”
Not just that, but also because of your own failure. You’ve undone yourself with your own ad hominem nonsense:
“Gimme a break. You’ve drunk Trump kool-aid and believe anything they say. Some skepticism.”
Doh.
To quote Trey Gowdy:
Reporter: “The memo has nothing to do with the Russia probe?”
Gowdy: “Not to me it doesn’t.There is a Russia investigation without a dossier. So to the extent that memo deals with the dossier and FISA process, the dossier has nothing to do with an email sent by Cambridge Analytica. The dossier really has nothing to do with George Papadopoulos’ meeting in Great Britain. It also doesn’t have anything to do with obstruction of justice. So there’s going to be a russia probe even without the dossier.”
“The civil liberties of a host of American citizens have been violated by Obama and Clinton operatives colluding to create a salacious and patently false ‘russian dossier, corruptly securing a FISA surveillance warrant, and then illegally spying on employees of the Trump campaign, President-Elect Trump transition team, and President Trumps administration.
“High Crimes And Misdemeanors” indeed! ”
Yes, the Obama administration “uncovered” numerous members of the Trump administration. Samantha Powers, Obama’s UN Ambassador supposedly uncovered something like 200 people and Susan Rice, Obama’s National Security Advisor also uncovered people.
The question is did they use the Discredited Dossier to wiretap *all* these people? This particular FISA Court violation seems to be focused on Mr. Carter. But what about all the others?
And what is a UN Ambassador doing requesting that hundreds of people be spied upon? What gives her the authority to do this? Obama, no doubt, but what law authorizes her to do this?
The corruption in the Obama administration is deep. Lots of investigations needed.
“The question is did they use the Discredited Dossier to wiretap *all* these people? This particular FISA Court violation seems to be focused on Mr. Carter. But what about all the others?’
No, that’s not the issue, not at all..
Any criminal activity by the FBI and DOJ based on fraudulent, unverified, information is a crime — a very serious crime. And all of that evidence will be thrown out, as it was illegally obtained.
Illegal search and seizure is a violation of our laws and Constitution.
d) To keep the pathway open to a New World Order and Global Governance open. FAIL
Chris,
Agreed. Good addition!
Summary point d) accepted, with the second ‘…open’ deleted.
Always see the error after I hit “Post” !!
J Mac, I am not so sure about this point.
“7) The + 1 year of ‘investigation’ by the politically biased Mueller team has resulted in no published evidence of ‘russian collusion’. Nada. Zip. Nuthin. Zero…”
I get the distinct impression that a lot of the details in this Memo have actually come from the Mueller investigation as he has followed the various trails that were started by the “Russian” connections.
THey may have been followed up by others or by some of his “team”.
Oh – That is soooo fine! Just…. fine!
I’m surprised Mann didn’t also mention Mark Steyn, the Koch Brothers, and Exxon.
I’m not surprised Mann didn’t mention Steve McIntyre because he’s seemingly incapable of naming him.
Obama promised the most transparent administration in history.
Now that he’s out of office, his promise is finally becoming true.
For a blog that claims it is all about science, climate, and weather, this posting is disgraceful.
…
I do hope the people running this blog realize that delving into politics ruins it’s reputation.
“For a blog that claims it is all about science, climate, and weather, this posting is disgraceful.”
Except that’s not true, this blog makes no such claims. It’s whatever interests Anthony, that determines what is posted. Sometimes that doesn’t include science, climate or weather directly.
“The world’s most viewed site on global warming and climate change”
…
F U TA…..it’s at the top of the page.
I’m guessing that either reading comprehension was never your strong suit, or you are just desperate to change the topic.
That a blog spends a lot of time one one or two subjects is not evidence that this is all it covers.
PS, What happened to that tolerance you lefty’s are always going on about.
Cussing at someone for the crime of not agreeing with you. How progressive of you.
It has become that.
But all it ever “claimed” to be was, as someone also quoted,
Remy, that’s not the way to win friends and influence people.
No problem TA, I wouldn’t want you as a “friend” ever.
“For a blog that claims it is all about science, climate, and weather”
Which it doesn’t, of course.
Thank you very much catweazle666: “Which it doesn’t, of course.”
…..
It is nice to know that you acknowledge that this site has nothing to do with science.
Poor little Remy, getting all upset because we spend our time talking about something that hurts his friends.
Let’s see, one article out of 100 that is primarily political in nature, and now, all of a sudden, this site doesn’t care anything about science.
If it is still possible, please grow up.
Twist and shout.
I was never a big Beatles fan (though my older sisters were) but I think their version on was more entertaining.
https://youtu.be/b-VAxGJdJeQ
Have you read the ClimateGate emails, Remy?
Climate Science is Political Science, not actual Science. It’s been clearly documented — in their own words.
Why would Anthony not realize and expose that?
Sorry Reg, I don’t think stolen property has much value to the discussion of scientific merit. How do you know all those emails weren’t edited?
Because Phil Jones of the CRU said so. Check it out in the couple of days following the release.
Once again, the troll tries to divert attention.
1) There is no evidence that the e-mails were stolen, leaked is much more likely.
2) What matters is what the e-mails say, not how they got into the public domain.
For a Mann who claims he is all about science, climate, and weather, this posting is disgraceful:
I do hope the people funding this political Mann realize that his delving into politics undermines the illusion that it’s “all about science.”
Mann is a voing citizen of the USA, and as such he is entitled to his own political opinion. Can you please explain to me how his political opinion influences his work in the field of science?
“The people running this blog” are not voting citizens, thus are not entitled to any political opinions. They should abstain from posting content deviating from the parameters arbitrarily imposed by Remy Mermelstein.
yours sincerely,
Remy
* * * * *
About Watts Up With That? News and commentary on puzzling things in life, nature, science, weather, climate change, technology, and recent news by Anthony Watts
https://wattsupwiththat.com/about-wuwt/about2/
* * * * *
How fascinating, Mann is a voting citizen and is entitled to his opinion.
But apparently Anthony, who is also a voting citizen is not entitled to an opinion.
It really is fascinating how leftists change their definition of right and wrong based on whether it’s their goose being cooked or not.
“Can you please explain to me how his political opinion influences his work in the field of science?”
Oh Remy! That one made me laugh out loud! It is so funny because every skeptic is being constantly accused of being a right-wing nut job in the pay of big oil, so anything a skeptic says can be ignored. Of course, there is no evidence of such.
It is a matter of record that Mr. Mann is and always has been, supported and paid by organizations of the left. Does that taint his science? I don’t think so. I believe his far left ideology taints his science and he would publish crap science whether he was paid or not. But that is just my opinion.
Mann is tweeting as a professor of PSU, I’m not sure a member of a public tax exempt organization should be engaging in politics, it could jeopardize PSU’s tax exempt status.
What was the “reputation” that caused you to grace us with your presence ?
Or were ya just slumming ?
It really is fascinating how leftists actually seem to believe that they have a right to determine what other people are allowed to talk about.
“I do hope the people running this blog realize that delving into politics ruins it’s reputation.”
Don’t you contradict yourself Remy? As if you thought or cared that this blog had a good reputation in the first place…
And did you see the “Category” drop-down list on the right-hand side, Remy?
The one that says, “Politics”?
Did you see that one?
“I do hope the people running this blog realize that delving into politics ruins it’s reputation.”
I agree that it would have been wiser to have avoided starting this thread, because it will be cited by warmists as evidence of our bias and motivated reasoning on climate-related matters. To date, AW has prudently avoided the temptation to create threads on explicitly political matters, AFAIK. (Maybe there were a couple of exceptions.) This thread should have been posted elsewheree, at am’s-length from WUWT.
“I agree that it would have been wiser to have avoided starting this thread, because it will be cited by warmists as evidence of our bias and motivated reasoning on climate-related matters.”
Let us dare not speak of any other truth in the world because it might make us look bad to outright liars, fools and Statists?
Why should I care if they like me in the first place?
Roger, “CAGW climate science” has always been about politics, a lever to political power. Obama’s administration was a major enabler. Exposing and uncovering what happened under his watch is important.
Show the corruption, the violations of the principles behind the bounds of the government “We The People” set up.
Remove the taxpayers’ green and break the lever CAGW has provided to power.
Others will come up, but this is part of breaking the many current levers in operation.
Once that is broken, maybe this blog will get back to other green matters. Maybe asparagus?
“Let us dare not speak of any other truth in the world because it might make us look bad to outright liars, fools and Statists?”
No—because they will be able to use it to convince fence-sitters that WUWT is a right-wing site and its opposition to the consensus is political, not scientific. That has been their claim all along, and now they have evidence they can cite.
“No—because they will be able to use it to convince fence-sitters that WUWT is a right-wing site and its opposition to the consensus is political, not scientific.”
Haven’t you just made my point for me?
By that logic, climate skepticism, enabled by Trump, could be tarred with the brush of climate-skeptic Trump’s mis-deeds. So that logic fails.
Obama wasn’t a big enabler of clisci until his second term. Clisci has been enabled by dozens of non-corrupt governments around the world, and ditto by scores of local jurisdictions in the U.S. Collectively, their backing was more important than Obama’s. Funding for clisci research came mostly from supposedly independent agencies manned by civil service personnel, or by a revolving group of mostly non-governmental scientists at the NSF. But there’s been plenty of funding by U.S. foundations and Green NGOs, and by foreign entities.
The link between misbehavior in one realm by an administration (trying to win an election by hook or crook, which is fairly common) and that in another (climate policy) is too tenuous to be convincing to most of the public. Claiming there is a link makes us look (at first glance, which is all many people will do) like a partisan site, and therefore likely opposed to the climate consensus for partisan reasons.
“By that logic, climate skepticism, enabled by Trump, could be tarred with the brush of climate-skeptic Trump’s mis-deeds. So that logic fails.”
Except that you’ve failed to make the proper distinction between CAGW and “climate skepticism”. The former is a lie, pushed in part by agenda driven scientists (Mann, et al.) and used exclusively by certain politicians for a single political goal, i.e., power. The latter is founded upon sound reasoning and scientific principles. Therefore, it would appear irrational to link Trump’s misdeeds to climate skepticism.
For what reason would one make the link? The advancement of…”non-power”???
Some of Obama’s “stimulus” package monies went to local governments and was spent on air conditioning and other infrastructure “upgrades” that conformed to a green initiative. That’s a single example. Is it any wonder local governments would sign on to “clisci” when the Federal government is handing out candy for them to do so?
But even were it true that Obama failed to push “clisci” policies until his second term, this evidences nothing except for the corruption in the agenda. He knew the American public wasn’t interested and therefore advanced nothing toward the lie until after he was re-elected, in which case, the second term is the final term. No need to worry about votes any longer. Had the matter truly been about “the Good” then it would’ve been addressed in the first term.
Which “non corrupt” governments around the world have enabled “clisci”?
“The link between misbehavior in one realm by an administration (trying to win an election by hook or crook, which is fairly common) and that in another (climate policy) is too tenuous to be convincing to most of the public.”
Not when the link is a chain that’s never logically broken. The chain is “Power” and the link is “clisci”.
“Claiming there is a link makes us look (at first glance, which is all many people will do) like a partisan site, and therefore likely opposed to the climate consensus for partisan reasons.”
Why should such individuals come to a site like this? If such as these are as you say, you seem to contradict yourself to believe they’d ever come here in the first place. This is a site for the thinking man.
And if a few do, how can such be convinced of anything other than what they already believe? Hence, why do I care if such non thinking individuals consider me a partisan?
Your point was “it might make us look bad to outright liars, fools and Statists”
My response was that it will make us look bad to fence-sitters. So no, I haven’t made your point for you.
And in my opinion, a so-called “fence-sitter”, who would come to this site and conclude from thousands of articles on AGW versus just a rare few on political matters that the focus of it is to promote right-wing anything is foolish.
“a so-called “fence-sitter”, who would come to this site and conclude from thousands of articles on AGW versus just a rare few on political matters that the focus of it is to promote right-wing anything is foolish.”
1) But if he’s heard on social media or elsewhere that WUWT is a right-wing site, he won’t even come here.
2) One “slip-up” (as our opponents would call it) can taint everything else a site does. Look at how a few slip-ups by alrmist bigshots in the climategate emails negated all their “scientific” writings thereafter, because they were seen as “motivated reasoning.”
“1) But if he’s heard on social media or elsewhere that WUWT is a right-wing site, he won’t even come here.”
Then it would appear my argument is sound. Any individual who chooses to believe the gossip of talebearers is a fool. A wise man looks into the matter for himself.
“2) One “slip-up” (as our opponents would call it) can taint everything else a site does. Look at how a few slip-ups by alrmist bigshots in the climategate emails negated all their “scientific” writings thereafter, because they were seen as “motivated reasoning.”
Agreed! And thank you for this excellent evidence for my argument! Indeed the truth seems to have it’s way with lying and liars alike. Truth seems to prevail, as it has in your example. Therefore, let this site be always for the truth, wherever it’s found, whatever the perceived “cost”, for in the end truth will never let you down.
Roger Knights: “1) But if he’s heard on social media or elsewhere that WUWT is a right-wing site, he won’t even come here.”
sy computing: Then it would appear my argument is sound. Any individual who chooses to believe the gossip of talebearers is a fool. A wise man looks into the matter for himself.
Yes, but 80% of fence-sitters and other uncommitted people are not wise men. They are followers—followers of opinion-leaders. And they are afraid of social pariah-hood. If WUWT becomes demonized as a right-wing (i.e., nutcase, to many), Nunes-pushing site, few of the 80% will admit publicly to even taking a look at it, never mind citing it. They won’t even take the chance of their opinion on climate change being modified in their own mind, to avoid cognitive dissidence.
The effect in the non-wise, real-world of WUWT’s Nunes thread will be to diminish the general credibility and influence of WUWT. It would have been more prudent to post the thread somewhere else and then link to it in a WUWT thread devoted only that link—an arms-length tactic.
Roger:
With respect, it would appear we’re covering old ground at this point.
Much of your latest argument has been addressed already. I’m not sure what more I can say. We’ll have to agree to disagree on this issue, good sir!
All the best!
🙄
When I first read the blog and the comments I thought the same as Mr. Mermelstein but then I realised that it is important to expose the culture that has developed among state employees (including, for example, those in the British Cabinet Office and Treasury) that truth should be made subservient to their wider aims.
Is there any difference between the FBI using devious means to achieve a political objective and the EPA using devious “statistics” to promote the political CGAW hypothesis?
Science depends on truth and the exposure of untruths, no matter where they occur, is essential of science is to flourish.
1) The connection to climate was detailed in the header.
2) This blog is about whatever interests Anthony, as it says in the description.
3) I love it when left wingers whine that we are spending too much time embarrassing them.
Does “by any means possible” include physical violence I wonder?
That’s the pattern usually followed by the left.
Now, all of a sudden , the FBI is worried about leaks
Mann’s hper partisanship will alway cloud his judgement and his ability to recognize facts.
Nunes has admitted that he hasn’t actually read the FISA application himself before writing his memo. And Page was initially investigated back in 2013, long before the dossier.
Without actually having access to everything that was put in front of the judge, there is no way to judge the veracity of this report.
Gowdy did, hence you’re wrong.
If I was going to write that memo, I would make sure that I actually read the FISA application myself, rather than relying on the note taking of a third party.
Also, Nunes hasn’t actually provided evidence to support his claim. Do you know what other information went into the application, and exactly what the judge was told?
It is also a fact that Page was being investigated long before the dossier existed. All we have at this point is one mans opinion.
“If I was going to write that memo, I would make sure that I actually read the FISA application myself, rather than relying on the note taking of a third party.”
No you wouldn’t have, otherwise you wouldn’t have had the opportunity to write the memo and expose this abuse of power by Progressives. The agreement between Justice and the committee was that a single individual would read the memo.
“Nunes said he thought Gowdy would be the best choice because of his background as a federal prosecutor, and that Gowdy then shared his notes and observations with the rest of the members.”
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/372119-nunes-admits-he-did-not-view-the-surveillance-warrant-applications-that-form
“Also, Nunes hasn’t actually provided evidence to support his claim. Do you know what other information went into the application, and exactly what the judge was told?”j
It is enough to know that the information that did go into the application was knowingly false, i.e., a LIE. As to what other evidence was submitted, if there were any, which I highly doubt (otherwise there would be no need to submit a LIE would there???) I don’t really care, and neither should any other American concerned with how the State is justifying spying on American citizens with FISC.
“It is also a fact that Page was being investigated long before the dossier existed. All we have at this point is one mans opinion.”
Do you not see that Page was a mere bait fish to Trump? The excuse for the warrant was Page, the fish the FBI was hunting was the President. The FBI had nothing on Trump, hence they used a patsy, i.e., Page, to obtain a warrant based upon a LIE in order to spy on the opposition candidate for President of the United States. Because they didn’t LIKE him. He represented a threat to everything the prior Progressive administration had “accomplished”.
Furthermore, we have squealing Progressive Democrats and squishy left-leaning Republicans pretty much backing up every claim Gowdy is making simply by their actions alone. Not a single Democrat voted to release the memo and all publicly berated Nunes, et al., prior the memo’s being released, including the FBI brass.
If there’s a “NothingBurger w/cheese” here, why the squeals of terror?
I hope this helps.
sy computing said:
“No you wouldn’t have, otherwise you wouldn’t have had the opportunity to write the memo and expose this abuse of power by Progressives. The agreement between Justice and the committee was that a single individual would read the memo.”
Actually it was one person plus a staff member. And what exactly stops the person who read the classified information from writing the memo themselves? Who’s opinion is it we are actually getting?
“It is enough to know that the information that did go into the application was knowingly false, i.e., a LIE. As to what other evidence was submitted, if there were any, which I highly doubt (otherwise there would be no need to submit a LIE would there???) I don’t really care, and neither should any other American concerned with how the State is justifying spying on American citizens with FISC.”
How do you know the information was knowingly false? How do you know there wasn’t any other information? Do you know exactly what parts of the dossier are true or false? How do you know? Because Nunes said so?
“Do you not see that Page was a mere bait fish to Trump? The excuse for the warrant was Page, the fish the FBI was hunting was the President. The FBI had nothing on Trump, hence they used a patsy, i.e., Page, to obtain a warrant based upon a LIE in order to spy on the opposition candidate for President of the United States. Because they didn’t LIKE him. He represented a threat to everything the prior Progressive administration had “accomplished”.”
A lot of assertions. I’m sure you’ll be able to spell out exactly how you know all those things.
“Furthermore, we have squealing Progressive Democrats and squishy left-leaning Republicans pretty much backing up every claim Gowdy is making simply by their actions alone. Not a single Democrat voted to release the memo and all publicly berated Nunes, et al., prior the memo’s being released, including the FBI brass.”
Well, you’re entitled to your opionin.
Philip:
To quote a phrase:
“You’re not a moron if you can’t see the truth. But you are a moron if you refuse to see it.”
All the best!
Come to think of it, I should’ve been kinder. My apologies.
There’s a healthy kind of skepticism tempered with reason, logic and critical thinking skills that allow an individual to “see” certain truths they otherwise might not see. An example is AGW skepticism. And then there’s an unhealthy kind of skepticism that applies no critical thinking skills whatsoever to a proposition, but rather simply denies that anything can be known about anything unless the thing involving the proposition is empirically experienced by the subject evaluating it.
In my opinion, you suffer from a version the latter, in which case, you’re not a moron at all and I’m sorry.
All the best!
PS, a late return. The reason Nunes didn’t read the Fisa app was DOJ would not let him. The DoJ response to his subpoena was to place the subpoenaed documents in a secure room at DoJ, and let exactly three people see them and take notes but not copies. Thenthree were two staff investigators and one committee member. Nunes chose Trey Goudy, an experienced former federal prosecutor, rather than himself, a former dairy farmer. Quite sound, and shoots your objection down in flames.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that the state of disorder of a system tends to increase over time. That means that constant work is necessary to maintain order. If order in a thermodynamic system is considered to be analogous to laws in a political system, then the second law can be restated for political systems as follows:
The Second Law of Politics:
Or in other words: All political systems will tend to totalitarianism over time. That means that constant work is necessary to maintain lawfulness.
Phil,
Thomas Jefferson recognized that work must be input to maintain the engine of Liberty.
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.”
Thank you. That is more eloquent. I am too much of a nerd when it comes to the humanities.
What makes me sad is that I am just not surprised anymore that these things are happening.
What’s much worse is the people who will brazenly pretend that it doesn’t matter:
1) The lame-stream media who claim to care about such things as truth and properly functioning electoral processes, and
2) Some of the professional politicians who are paid to care, and are elected by the American people to both care about such things and to fix them when events like this occur.
Regardless of all else, the BEST thing about the release of this Memo, is that we can now have an investigation into the entire matter that is out in the open. The act of declassifying the Memo and sending it to congress allows congress to hold investigations into all of the matters raised, and that will be raised.
This is how you drain the swamp folks.
That’s right. The congress will start an investigation. If this investigation reveals that Obama, his government members or Democrats have acted criminally, they can hand over their posts and postmen as well as postpasts. In the case of offenses against the Constitution alone the President can pardon and in this case he will do a devil. I’ve been expecting that for a long time, this is just the first step that will bring down the House of Cards. The Trump side has not fallen on its head and will have more aces up its sleeve. That Trump does not play all at once is right, slowly, one after another is the right one. Revenge is best when it takes a long time.
This reminds me a bit of the case of the lock of many Russian winter athletes for alleged area doping. Apart from a few athletes just a few days before the CAS won all plaintive athletes for the apparent lack of evidence. What kind of jurisdiction is this in sports, if you can not prove the reason for a ban, sometimes life long. It was a pure witch hunt against Russian athletes, who can now force their participation in the Winter Games, so that the Russian team will provide the numerically strongest Kontigent. Does the power of liberal American billionaires go so far as to influence international sports politics? In addition, the embarrassment of Wada comes because of commonly used urine containers, which can be easily opened, the contents exchanged and can be closed again. Since every investigation on doping is hopeless. Also in the “clean” western sport.
It is clear to me why, e.g. US Billionaires like Soros in Hungary are “Persona non Grata”.
This is relevant because “climate change” is a political issue not a scientific. All the usual climate alarmists tend to be lefties. Sorry, just the way it is.
To answer the criticism often posted,
Not all leftists are AGW alarmists, but pretty much all AGW alarmists are leftists.
It’s understandable that being called a denier and worse has embittered so many of us. I have been called such things by my liberal church and by some friends. My lukewarmer POV and centrist politics has also resulted in demonization by the right. I remember in the early years of WUWT when Anthony said he often voted Democratic. There was a lot more civility among posters back then and much fewer hominem attacks.
The global warming/climate change science class I teach becomes more difficult every year as politics, nasty politics, shapes understanding,.and common civility, even listening to other POVs, is replaced by name calling.
My students ask me, ” where can I go for a balanced view.” I say, “I don’t know.” The only web site remaining, that I know of, that still promotes understanding above agenda and polemic and has civil comments is “Science of Doom.” However, it’s too technical for most of my friends and students. It saddens me that WUWT, like most other climate blogs, is succumbing to the siren call of identity politics over the open-minded skepticism of science.
Another snowflake melting under the disinfectant qualities of sunshine. Let the truth come out and the voters will decide what to believe, and what to reject. That is what this is about, and what this site is about. Don’t tell me what to believe, show me the evidence, and I will decide what it says. If you have been following the “climate science drama” over the past 30 years, you would not be trying to separate the politics from the science. Climate science is political science. It is funded by political sources, and designed to produce results that empower political institutions. The climate is fine. It is the corruption of unethical political methods to obtain power that is unstable.
Well said.
The political corruption was exposed by the Climategate emails and continues on unabated. They, high ranking climate scientists, sought to promote the “Cause” not the “Truth”.
Doug Allen, if you seek to teach young minds about science, teach them the Scientific Method, and demonstrate how Climate Science does not adhere to this rigorous standard.
Teach them about political corruption and how this corruption has infected once noble fields like Science. Teach them to think for themselves and question authority.
You seem to be missing something which it would normally be thought as blindingly obvious. If you seek to balance an object which is fundamentally flawed and doomed to destruction without the application of UNBALANCED corrective measures, anyone whose fate is tied to that object will be doomed to destruction as well, like a sinking ship kept on a balanced and even keel with counterflooding as it slips underneath the surface of the sea with all aboard. Maintaining civility does not require the compromising of fundamental principles of science, constitutional government, and the Rule of Law. That reality is one of the most important principles of life students can learn about the natural and social sciences.
I am well pleased by the depth of understanding reflected in the comments. This is a very fact based group of commentators. One note on a matter I have not seen in the comments. The information gathered based on the bogus FISC approval for surveillance found its way into Obama’s daily security briefing where it was discriminated to a very broad audience. In that process the names of political opponents/American citizens were being revealed. Obama was spying and gathering political intelligence on Hillary’s opponents. I could easily imagine that Trump was not the only opponent being spied upon.
Dudley:
And you would be confirmed correct in your imaginings!
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/30/opinion/sunday/if-donald-trump-targets-journalists-thank-obama.html
I’m embarrassed for my country (UK) if, as seems likely, HMGov was in cahoots with USA spooks to undermine Trump candidacy.
The only way the usual suspects are going to stop spinning what happened is when Obama and Killary are in gaol
Unfortunately, Christopher Steele may have implicated the UK in the attempt by a foreign government or foreign governments to influence the 2016 U.S. election, because he has now used his attorneys to invoke a claim the London court should not require him to make a deposition in a court case regarding his allegations against Trump and Aleksej Gubarev, a Russian businessman Steele accused of criminal hacking. This gives the appearance that Steele claims to be a retired MI6 intelligence officer operating as a private citizen with a commercial intelligence business, yet he wants to claim he cannot and/or must not be compelled to give a deposition to the London court on the basis of being subject to Crown law regarding official secrets? If so, this would raise the question of how an active British intelligence agent can conduct official espionage against a U.S. target and work under contract with the FBI of the United States at the same time without violating British law and the 5 Is agreement between the UK and US Governments? This information appeared in a Fox News story by Pamela K. Brown February 5, 2018.
Thanks Anthony, for posting this for us!
Thanks WUWT followers for all the good comments!
Good to finally see some fair and balanced discussion on this issue.
This past year and a half has been so frustrating, with respect to the main stream media reports on
President Trump. WPR has been so unbalanced in their discussions that perhaps they should not be getting any tax payer funding what so ever. I had been a fan for a number of years of WPR Ideas network, too.
I have a question regarding Carter Page. So the guy was under investigation for suspected ties to the Russian government starting in 2013 (he was “warned” but never charged). Then he again comes up for investigation again for the same ties in 2016. Yet somehow the guy got onto the Trump transition team. Exactly how did that happen? A suspected Russian SPY got onto the Trump transition team. A RUSSIAN SPY!? Don’t they do back-ground checks for that kind of thing? No hate towards President Trump, but if his team did not run any back-ground checks on people on their team they are out of their minds! Beyond the obvious insanity behind the Muh-Russian conspiracy BS bought and paid for by the DNC and Clinton Crime Syndicate, I see a different problem. If the Trump team did run back-ground checks, why didn’t the FBI tell the Trump transition team? Hmmm… could be they didn’t want to? Could be they did and no one cared?
So, you have proof Page is a Russian spy. Cool,get it to the FBI pronto!Apparently they could not find any.
Actually, the FBI had proof… hence the Title 1 FISA application.
No. That letter that the democrats heading the FBI used was a specific and deliberate lie paid for BY the democrat party specifically to CREATE the ability to apply to the FISA Court to justify the wiretaps and surveillance.
And the HUNDREDS of subsequent “release requests” of NSA surveillance to reveal the private conversations of the Trump transition team were submitted BY the democrat United Nations ambassador specifically to USE those wiretaps!
Really, the Steele”dossier” is proof that Page is a spy and they arrested him. And the press did not cover this sensational news. You clearly need to be running things for us!
“Actually, the FBI had proof… hence the Title 1 FISA application.”
You seem to misunderstand the nature of evidence. If the FBI already had proof that Page was a spy there would be no need for the FISA application.
It does not actually work that way… you have to have solid enough proof to justify a Title 1 FISA application.
“you have to have solid enough proof to justify a Title 1 FISA application.”
How does one apply to FISA with the proof one is attempting to obtain from FISA?
Title I FISA approval is made with the implicit understanding the FBI is presenting factual and irrefutable evidence that the American citizen targeted – in this case Carter Page – is operating as a foreign agent on behalf of a foreign government. Mere contacts with governmental officials is not enough to gain a Title I FISA warrant; “agent of a foreign power” who is “knowingly engaging in clandestine intelligence activities.” The evidence must show the American Citizen is an agent of a foreign government.
Remember the purpose of a FISA warrant: it is not “to investigate” but rather “to monitor.” Distinct difference.
“Title I FISA approval is made with the implicit understanding the FBI is presenting factual and irrefutable evidence that the American citizen targeted – in this case Carter Page – is operating as a foreign agent on behalf of a foreign government.”
Then the FBI lied:
“But investment banking wasn’t Page’s only contact with Russia: A Russian spy tried to recruit him as an asset in 2013. Page said he thought the spy was a businessman and provided him with publicly available energy-related documents.
The man and two other operatives later decided that while “enthusiastic,” Page was an “idiot” and not worth their time.”
http://www.newsweek.com/memo-nunes-trump-carter-page-russia-spies-796702
You might think about researching the matter more in-depth on your own going forward. Unless you’re really a troll (this is now my suspicion) you’ll find your own answers readily available in online news sites.
All the best.
I think you guys are missing my point though: Why was Carter Page CAPABLE of being hired by the Trump campaign? I am a full-bore Trump supporter, so don’t take my question as being hostile. Honestly think. Why was Page capable of being hired if in 2013 he was being investigated as a Russian spy. Not links to Russia – no – but an actual spy. How did he even get into the Trump team? How was it even possible?
He was a volunteer.
Maybe the Trump team thought he was not a spy and had seen no evidence that he was?
I’m not sure why you think they might have acted differently if they knew the allegations to be based on a fabricated document from the opposition, which would seem like the most likely probability in the run-up to an election.
The answer is quite simple: the first, and all subsequent, FISA warrant sought against Carter Page was classified. Trump had no access to that information as a Presidential candidate.
As you point out, the FISA warrant against Page was Title I, the most severe accusation — i.e. that Page was, in fact, a foreign operative (not merely colluding with foreign governments). This gave the corrupt FBI, DOJ, Clinton and Obama much broader surveillance powers.
BTW, Obama and Loretta Lynch first sought a FISA application warrant directly against Trump. This was denied, one of only twelve out thirty-five-thousand requests since 1979. It was only after this request was denied, that the went after Carter Page.
Page was never charged with a crime and is now suing everyone who defamed him.
Any political campaign who accepts a volunteer or a paid consultant to provide valid advice about the Russian oil and gas industry requires a person with some degree of personal financial and business experience working in that Russian business sector with Russians in Russia. Any business person working in Russia is going to be vetted by the Russian intelligence services to determine whether or not they can be utilized to benefit Russian intelligence and/or business relations. Any person who works with any Russian oil and gas company is going to be in contact with the Russian intelligence officers they use in the management positions of those Russian companies. Consequently, every foreign business person working in Russia or in the international financial markets with Russian business representatives will unavoidably come into regular and irregular contact with Russian intelligence officers and agents. Even in circumstances where a foreign citizen visited the Soviet Union with no intentions whatsoever of doing anything wrong, the Soviet KGB had InTourist house the visitor in a hotel room specially equipped with one-way mirrors and audio-visual recording equipment. The KGB then attempted to entice the person to engage in sexual relations with adults or minors of different sexual persuasions in an effort to capture audio-visual recordings to be used for blackmail. If those measures were ineffective, the KGB would try to record any other activities they could discover, initiate, or fabricate out of nothing that could be used for blackmail. Whether or not the current Russian intelligence services still engage in these intelligence operations is open to investigation. Bottomline, the Clinton RICO (Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organization) is well aware of Soviet-Russian intelligence operational procedures and made use of that knowledge to accuse Carter Page, rightfully or wrongfully, of illicit activities with the Russians for the purpose of acquiring FISA warrants to spy upon the Trump political campaign and its operations. The FISC (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court) should have known to discriminate the difference between the mere customary business activities and associated exposure to customary and unavoidable Russian intelligence operations versus actual witting collusion or collaboration with Russian intelligence operations. In other words, is this Democrat allegation another fictitious ploy comparable to the false allegations Sessions colluded with the Russians because he exchanged customary pleasantries with the Russian Ambassador while serving as a U.S. Senator in the committees requiring contact with all foreign ambassadors, including the Russian Ambassador? Under such circumstances, how do you propose it was possible for the Trump Campaign or any political campaign in opposition to the DNC and Clinton RICO to choose anyone as an expert on the Russian oil and gas industry who COULD NOT be falsely accused by Democrats in the FISC composed of all Obama appointed judges?