Climate Change Enables Storms to "Push 600-Ton Boulders Around"… Reality Check

Guest eye-rolling by David Middleton

The featured image is a USGS picture of a boulder from a debris flow in Venezuela.  I chose not to use the photos from the Earther article to avoid any copyright issues.

From the alarmists who brought you, “Climate Change Is Causing the Seafloor to Sink“…

Apparently Storms Can Push 600-Ton Boulders Around

Maddie Stone

On the rocky shores of a windswept island just west of Ireland, the 620-ton boulder looks almost at home. But careful analysis of its position over the last few years has revealed something odd: between the summers of 2013 and 2014, the boulder shifted a couple meters toward the sea. That discovery is causing scientists to rethink what they know about the impacts of powerful storms.

In fact, the rock is one of more than a thousand boulders—including a handful of Very Large Boulders (VLBs and yes, that’s a technical term) weighing over 50 metric tons—shuffled around by the powerful storms that pounded Ireland’s west coast during the winter of 2013-2014, the stormiest in decades. Described in a new paper in the journal Earth Science Reviews, these boulders offer some of the first concrete evidence that storm waves, not just tsunami waves, can pack enough punch to hurl giant chunks of Earth around. (For comparison, 100 metric tons is about half the weight of a Boeing 747.)

In a warming world where more energy in the oceans and atmosphere could mean more powerful storms, that’s an important insight.

“Ten years ago, it was possible to say storms can’t move 50 ton boulders,” lead study author Rónadh Cox, a professor of geosciences at Williams College, told Earther. “If you were building a model of storm intensity or thinking about risks posed by severe storms, then your upper level for storm energy were to some extent informed by that understanding.”

[…]

Earther

“Ten years ago, it was possible to say storms can’t move 50 ton boulders”…  This is where I rolled my eyes.

OkBGyqU

https://imgur.com/gallery/uzBxh

But, 20 years ago, it was possible to say that storms did move VLB’s around (Ms. Stone is correct about VLB’s being a genuine technical term)…

QUATERNARY RESEARCH 48, 326–338 (1997)

ARTICLE NO. QR971926

Boulder Deposits from Large Waves during the Last Interglaciation on North Eleuthera Island, Bahamas

Paul J. Hearty

Bahama_Boulders

The greatest weight (from an estimated denasity of 2.4 g/cm3) is about 2,300 tons for Boulder 1.

OK… The largest Eemian Bahama Boulder was 2,300 tons.  It was ten times the size of Holocene boulders moved by waves.  That would be 230 tons.  Yet, 10 years ago, storms couldn’t move 50 ton boulders.

For that matter, the Irish boulders which couldn’t be moved by storms 10 years ago, were very likely deposited by storms…

PUBLIC RELEASE: 27-NOV-2017

Boulder deposition by tsunamis and storms

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES

A study explores the origin of boulders deposited on cliffs in western Ireland and New Zealand’s North Island. The question of whether tsunamis or storm waves are responsible for the presence of boulders on ocean cliffs remains unsettled. John Dewey and Paul Ryan compared two deposits of boulders weighing more than 30 tonnes on the coastline of Annagh Head, western Ireland and on the Matheson Formation, a Miocene deposit in New Zealand. Oceanographic data, field measurements, and historic storm accounts indicated that Annagh Head deposits, which weigh more than 50 tonnes, are subject to 20-30-meter-high storm waves. Field measurements of the Matheson Formation indicated that a 12-13-meter tsunami with a period of approximately 1 hour could have deposited the boulders, some of which weigh more than 140 tonnes. Further, compared with the Annagh Head deposits, the Matheson Formation deposits are spread over a large geographic region and include a large proportion of ocean floor sediments–both of which are indicative of a tsunami. A numerical model of storm waves indicated that boulder size, shape, and density determine the site at which waves deposit boulders. According to the authors, the Matheson Formation likely represents the deposition of a single tsunami over 1 hour, whereas the Annagh Head deposits likely represent the result of centuries of storms.

Article #17-13233: “Storm, rogue wave, or tsunami origin for megaclast deposits in western Ireland and North Island, New Zealand?,” by John F. Dewey and Paul D. Ryan.

Eureka Alert

Any questions?

 

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Mark from the Midwest

“On a ridge” … “some situated on limestone” … oh my, it must be the wind with such a stable base ….

Bryan A

Looking at the accompanying image, a vary reasonable possibility is that the wave action eroded some of the smaller rocks supporting the stone allowing it to slide towards the water line

MarkW

As the article states, the picture is not from the paper in question.

Ian McCandless

I’ll have to try this line…. “Officer, the wind from global warming must have shifted my car toward the bottom of the hill: only a DENIALIST would blame the parking-brake!”

rocketscientist

EROSION – it works, has been for…. well since ever.

Ian McCandless

Along with the fact that water is lower than land, and the article expressly says that the boulders shifted towards it. To wit:
But careful analysis of its position over the last few years has revealed something odd: between the summers of 2013 and 2014, the boulder shifted a couple meters toward the sea.
And how fardown? The article doesn’t mention that part.
What rolls down hills,
in warming or chills?
Everyone knows, a boulder!

EricHa

comment image
Uluru…
•is 348 metres (1141 feet) high
•rises 863 metres (2,831 ft) above sea level
•is 3.6 km long (2.2 miles)
•is 1.9 km wide (1.2 miles)
•is 9.4 km or 5.8 miles around the base
•covers 3.33 km2 (1.29 miles2)
•extends about several km/miles into the ground (no-one knows exactly how far)

EricHa

comment image

Interested Observer

That’s not a boulder. THIS is a boulder! (See picture above)

tty

“extends about several km/miles into the ground (no-one knows exactly how far)”
I do, just about about 3,960 miles.

Donald Thompson

Apparently, everybody must get stoned.

thomasjk
Ian McCandless

You’d HAVE to be stoned to think that “the wind BLEW the rock downhill.” Usually they just do that by themselves.

Nah, that’s that gravity stuff, mate!

Severian

Climate Change can move a VLB, one RCH at a time. Derp.

higley7

Back in 1991, a hurricane, Bob, hit the coast of Maine. Afterwards, the Coast Guard was apparently missing a large concrete pier. They assumed it had broken its supports and sank into the sea. However, they located it about a hundred yards inland on the other side of a low hill. Storm waves pack a huge punch and the buoyant force cannot be ignored.

eyesonu

Is a VLB similar in size and texture to a BFR (big f*****g rock)? There are a lot of BFR’s on whitewater rivers. Not sure if they moved to their location or if everything else just left, or both. Like ‘climate’, everything should always stay the same. Prime flow rates should always stay the same, otherwise the BFR could become a BFH (big f*****g hole).

Andre Lauzon

How did they get where they were in the first place???

rocketscientist

Natural causes.
One must also realize that they started out as bigger rocks.

Ian McCandless

Andre Lauzon “How did they get where they were in the first place???”
What are you, some DENIALIST, with your “null hypothesis” that anything existed before that?

James Bull

As a child playing at the seaside or in rocky streams I found it was possible to move fairly large stones by directing a water flow in just the right area at the leading edge of the stone and this could be enough to lift it to move. Don’t ask me the hows and whys but it did work.
James Bull

Ian H

You don’t have to lift a boulder to move it across a surface. A massive boulder can be rocked back and forth using a tiny fraction of the force required to lift it, and if the base is irregular this kind of rocking motion is enough to make it walk. That is conjectured to be how the Easter Island statues were moved. Waves supply exactly the kind of intermittent force needed to make a boulder walk.

Martin457

Close to 10,000 years ago there were these pranksters……(sarc)

Extreme Hiatus

“Apparently Storms Can Push 600-Ton Boulders Around”… by “Maddie Stone.”
This has to be a joke, right? Maddie Stone writing about boulders?
“Ten years ago, it was possible to say storms can’t move 50 ton boulders”
Sure. It was possible to say that. It was possible to say just about anything as is shown by some of the ridiculous things that were said then, or now.

Roger Knights

There are some interesting sociological studies that have found an unusual correspondence between people’s names and professions. There’s even a term for it, something like “nomen… determinism.” I like it. it demonstrates that there’s an unknown whimsical force at work in the world.

quaesoveritas
Extreme Hiatus

Maybe this Dr. Cox (as well as Jonathan Overpeck) were destined for Chickenology or something more suitable, but went astray.

The last name of Smith. I always figured that, somewhere up the family tree, there was a black/silver smith.

Auto

Spoon Smith – Messer Schmidt [German][ – IF I have remembered the spellings and that.
Yes, Surnames [Family Names] did sometimes take the profession – Cooper; Hunt – or Hunter; Carpenter; Mason..
There are – IFRC – some seven types;
Others include
Location – Scott, London, Haythornthwaite, York(e);
Descriptors – Long; Short; Black;
Local points – Hayfield, Byhill Underhill; Greenfield;
Significant roles in community – [Plays – like King; Knight, even Foule]; Councillor;
And two more I cannot remember – sorry.
Auto

Hivemind

Also Raper or Reaper, derived from grain harvesting.

Ian McCandless

Extreme Hiatus: “Ten years ago, it was possible to say storms can’t move 50 ton boulders”
Actually they CAN, by causing floods and landslides.. which is exactly how this 600-ton boulder was moved a few meters toward the sea– and sea level as well:
it SLID.
As in DOWNHILL.
But I guess those signs saying “WATCH FOR FALLING ROCKS” are didn’t exist before Global Warming winds started blowing them downhill, since clearly gravity wasn’t the culprit.

MarkW

Nobody noticed it before, therefore it wasn’t happening before.

Extreme Hiatus

Ian – I think you missed my point. I was quoting the words of a ‘scientist’ from this article. It is possible to say anything, as shown by the CAGW Gang here and elsewhere/everywhere. That doesn’t mean it is true or anywhere near close to true or even worth listening to.
For example, I can say that gravity doesn’t exist. See. I just did.

Ian McCandless

Extreme Hiatus- that’s my point, The cagw gang is ALSO saying that gravity doesn’t exist.

Joel Snider

‘Extreme Hiatus- that’s my point, The cagw gang is ALSO saying that gravity doesn’t exist.’
You beat me to it. I was going to suggest ‘gravity’.
Now if the wind blew a six hundred ton stone UPHILL… well, that would be impressive.

Roaddog

Once again, Everybody Must Get Stoned.

pameladragon

Let us not forget the “Mysterious” moving boulders in Death Valley…at least they leave tracks….

ResourceGuy

beat me to it
+1

ralfellis

They rocks are moved by ice rafts. The rafts act like huge horizontal sails, developing enough wind friction to be moved along, and dragging any embedded rocks with them. Which is why the rock-tracks are usually parallel.
R

ResourceGuy

The clay minerals help.

Rainer Bensch

Yes, and even up hill.

barryjo

I believe I read about something similar occurring somewhere in South America. The rocks were at the end of a long trail in the sand.

Latitude

It takes a special kind of brain damage to even come up with this stuff….
and there’s too many of them out there with it!
makes you not want to leave the house!

Extreme Hiatus

“makes you not want to leave the house!”
No kidding. Wouldn’t want to get hit by one of these boulders in a storm.

Solomon Green

Anyone who has walked in a wadi will know that flash floods following storms can move boulders far heavier than 600 tons. About twenty years ago one flash flood caused a boulder the size of several double decker buses to dam a ravine in the Great Maktesh. Three years later another flash flood moved the rock about two hundred meters and cleared the lake that had formed.

Sara

Anyone who has seen the videos of floodwaters carrying boulders in Iceland after Eyefjalljokul erupted knows that water can move ANYTHING it wants to, including your entire house, contents and all, fully-loaded semitruck trailers, and freight trains.

Roger Knights

But those were downhill or level-land movements. Lifting big boulders high above sea level is Something Else.

Ian McCandless

Solomon Green “Anyone who has walked in a wadi will know that flash floods following storms can move boulders far heavier than 600 tons”
Yes, it’s called a mudslide. Gravity does the moving, because they always move downhill.

Solomon Green

Actually in the case that I cited the first sift was downhill on dry stony river bed. The second, however, although obviously gravity inspired, was due to the sheer volume/weight of water, which had remained after the first flood and been added to by succeeding rains, forcing the boulder cork out of the ravine even though at the point where it had previously come to rest there was a rock ridge some 2 to 4 feet high. In other words the boulder was pushed uphill, albeit a small hill.

ResourceGuy

Just keep staring at it….and earn tenure and promotion too.

tty

Since the previous interglacial (MIS 5e, Eemian/Sangamonian) was significantly warmer than the present one there has been a great deal of effort expended on trying to find traces of politically useful climate catastrophes (collapsing ice-sheets, sudden sea-level rises etc). Paul Heartys specialty is catastrophic super-hurricanes (note that tsunamis are not a politically correct explanation, since they aren’t climate related, it’s gotta be hurricanes).
These data from Ireland is seriously bad from this point of view since there are no tropical hurricanes at all there, just ordinary North Atlantic storms.
By the way, doesn’t anyone remember what happened to the “Mulberry A” artificial harbor off Omaha beach in the storm 19-22 june 1944. 21 out of 28 concrete caissons weighing from 2,000 to 6,000 tons, filled with sea-water and standing on the seabottom were quite simply washed away.

Thank you tty!
I was thinking that same thought. There are pictures of the devastated mulberry shortly after the storm.

HDHoese

Even us biologists keep things around like Wiegel’s “Oceanographical Engineering,” published in 1964. Whole chapter on wave forces, uses lots of logarithmic graphs. 1997-20=1977.
Author probably never swam in the surf. Closest thing cited in Bahamas article to an engineering study is a Soil Survey. Where do you keep getting these papers? Actually maybe not that hard to find, impressive until you really read them. Does the paper use the word erosion anywhere? D has a hole in it. Last time I looked coastal engineers preferred denser granite because calcareous rocks move too much among other problems.

co2islife

CO2 doesn’t only cause warming, it alters gravity. Is that the theory?

DONM

Don’t be silly. CO2 just interferes with gravity, doesn’t alter it.
its all that extra co2 that causes the denser atmosphere and therefore the increased buoyancy on the rock ….
(need to ask the authors how much that 50 ton rock weighs when it is under water; and how much force a wave surge imparts on the face (or back) of the rock; and why that surgeforce would be different now as compared to any other historic/future timeline)

Sara

CO2 may be the one thing responsible for time dilation when waiting for the bus to arrive on a cold, dark winter night.

Ian McCandless

Don’t hold your breath.

Bruce Cobb

Oh my. The sea must have been angry that day…

AndyG55

Waiting for Nick or tone to come and defend this idiocy. 🙂

Ian McCandless

Even Nick Stokes recognizes the gravity of this situation.

Vincent

Maddie Stone – boulders.
You guys have been suckered !-)

Dog

This person has obviously never heard of the Sailing Stones of Death Valley nor the Living/Growing/Moving/Breeding rocks of Romania. Boulders and rocks do some pretty funky stuff but this observational study is the least funky of them all.
“Ten years ago, it was possible to say storms can’t move 50 ton boulders”
Uh oh he may be on to something:
https://www.google.com/search?q=boulder+landslides
Some of these boulders traveled nearly a mile so we better act NOW before we all get crushed by boulders!

tobyglyn
Robert in Busan

Forget the boulders. It’s those rouge asteroids that plan their attacks to occur during government shutdowns we must worry about.

Edwin

“Water is fluid, soft, and yielding. But water will wear away and move rock, which is rigid and cannot yield. As a rule, whatever is fluid, soft, and yielding will overcome whatever is rigid and hard. This is another paradox: what is soft is strong.”
― Lao Tzu

Ian McCandless

The explains the persistence of this “Soft Science” behind AGW… it doesn’t yield to facts.

wally

My eyes rolled at that very statement.

Ian McCandless

Ironically, Neil De-Grass Tyson is an AGW-proponent. I guess it beats obscurity… the real “inconvienient truth” is that it doesn’t pay for academics to tell the truth, and so the ones who support Climate Change are a bunch of pimps and whores.

Tom in Florida

David, that looks more like Robert Mueller.

Tom in Florida

Come to think of it, Peter Strzok looks like Eddie Munster.

jclarke341

One of the defining postulates of the current climate change paradigm is, “If I haven’t seen it before, it has never happened before.”
Is that delusional, or what?

Reg Nelson

The delusion is unprecedented.

jclarke341

Reg…your response made me laugh, but, unfortunately, such delusion is all too common throughout human history.

Jeff L

Climate “scientists “ ignore geology at their own peril. Sedimentary geology only records all past climate… surely there must be something to be learned there /sarc.
IMHO, the best climatologists are actually sedimentary geologists

rbabcock

I’m sorry.. this is important why? Are we concerned about boulders decimating NYC due to climate change?

Ian McCandless

Indeed, my first response was “soil erosion,” while the fact of their moving towards the ocean gives a clear hint that they were shifting downhill. To wit:
“between the summers of 2013 and 2014, the boulder shifted a couple meters toward the sea.
Pardon me, but doesn’t land tend to descend toward the sea-level? I notice that the boulder’s elevation was not mentioned, and I wondered if it might also have dropped a few meters…i.e. basically, it rolled downhill, as per the law of gravity. You know, Newton, the apple-guy who’s not Steve Jobs.
But then, I suppose that 600-ton boulders are nothing for the wings of a Climate-Change theorist’s imagination, where the laws of physics do not apply…and the big winds of their endless talk can move mountains– or build them in the path of human progress with endless fearmongering. They certainly have done much of that.

Extreme Hiatus

At least they didn’t try to explain that as evidence of accelerating sea level rise.

Ian McCandless

Only because they didn’t think of it.

AllyKat

That is the next paper.

Susan Kay

What role do actual ice age(s) with massive glacial movement – growth & melt – have on these theories?
What is their (glacial-weight, mass, ice, melt) effects on these huge stone movement(s), their displacement, the deposit of stone, & their original placement vs. later placement?
How does that alter or disprove each of the 2 theories presented here?
Water, water everywhere : If water movement can carve out the Grand Canyon over millenia, why not consider it’s effects – slow & steady, or rapid & ragged, on stone masses?
Like rolling rocks in the Mojave, the ‘friction’ holding those rocks in place is greased by seasonal rains, then the boulders there are easily blown about by the trade winds (and even leave a trail!). Exciting, almost magical stuff!
— We’re all just hanging out between ice ages, awaiting the next big chill.

Ian McCandless

It’s not water that moves it, it’s _gravity._ Water just goes alone for the ride.
The article expressly says “the boulder shifted several meters toward the sea–” i.e. toward sea-level, which is thus downhill.
Only friction holds it in place; and when erosion and/or rainfall etc. sufficiently creates a net-force to overcome the friction-coefficient, symbolized as “u,” then voila– it falls, whether by sliding, rolling or both.
Saying “the climate-change caused wind to to it,” is a new low in stupidity even for them.

Sheri

Note that Ms Stone started with a theory, wove the circumstances into the theory, will wait for boulders to follow the theory and most likely will ignore everything that does not fit her world view. She is very invested in her world view—she IS going to see a boulder move. She does at least do field work, but it’s quite obvious that field work can be just as filled with confirmation bias as a model. Ms. Stone seesh what she wants to see.

Sara

Will it help her if we hire David Copperfield to support her need to see a boulder move?

pameladragon

I know the perfect spot in northern Portugal. There is a boulder the size of stretch limo that can be rocked back and forth with very little effort….

Ian McCandless

Sara: what could it be a boulder move than hiring David Copperfield?

David L. Hagen

Megafloods also moved boulders
The ice age outburst megafloods also swept along “particles” of up to 10 m (30 ft) or larger in diameter. e.g., See Walters Butte boulders, Helverson Bonneville boulder, and “Lake Bonneville Flood boulders”
Lake Bonneflood Flood – Melon Gravels

The Melon Gravels deposited by the flood average three feet in diameter, but some well-rounded boulders range up to 10 feet in diameter. These boulders are composed almost entirely of basalt broken from nearby basalt flows. Only several miles of transportation by the flood was sufficient to round the boulders after which they were dumped in unsorted deposits up to 300 feet thick. Melon gravel bars are as much as one mile wide by 1.5 miles long.

See ice age outburst megafloods
e.g.
Lake Bonneville, USA
Lake Bonneville: A Scientific Update, Charles G. Oviatt, John F. Shroder Eds. 2016 preview At Google Books http://bit.ly/2kOxAN9
Lake Bonneville Flood, Digital Geology of Idaho, Idaho State Univ. http://bit.ly/2zGpcBU
Glacial Lake Bonneville YouTube http://bit.ly/2yiVWUY
Lake Missoula, USA
Ice Age Floods – Study of Alternatives Section D-Background NPS.gov http://bit.ly/2gEYZMY
Cataclysms on the Columbia: The Great Missoula Floods, By John Eliot Allen, Marjorie Burns, Scott Burns 2nd Ed. 2009. Google Books http://bit.ly/2yqC55T
Glacial Lake Missoula, YouTube http://bit.ly/2xFWOn4
Altai (Altay) Flood, Chuja (Chuya)-Katun River, Siberia
Ice Dammed Lake Outburst Floods in the Altai Mountains, Siberia – A Review with links for further resources, J. Herget, Tomsk State U. J. Biology 2012, 1(17) 148, bit.ly/2yJkRBq
English Channel
Two-stage opening of the Dover Strait and the origin of island Britain, S. Gupta et al. Nature 2017, http://bit.ly/2ibOrZm;
A megaflood in the English Channel, Jenny Collier, 2016 Harold Jeffreys Lecture, http://bit.ly/2gEN4i3
Megaflood: How Britain became an island 41:03, Dr. Jenny Collier, Dept of Sci & Engineering, Jul 11, 2012 Imperial College London
http://www.imperial.ac.uk/earth-science
Prehistoric English Super Flood, YouTube, http://bit.ly/2xFBein
PS Anti-catastrophic world views continue to censor and erase such interesting material from geological textbooks.

Gerontius

My understating is that on Easter Island the big rock statues are reported to have walked to their current site.
http://cdn.architecturendesign.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/AD-Easter-Island-Statue-Bodies-4A.jpg
That is not to say that I believe it.

Ian McCandless

But what buried them up to their necks like that?

Gerontius

Looks like soil to me

Are YOU a denier…. 97% of the science is settled (:-))

Sheri

I would note that there are large boulders to be found all over Wyoming in the mountains. My hubby and I always said the BLM set the boulders on edge for the benefit of tourists. Using Ms. Stone’s logic, I’m considering staking out the boulders and waiting for that BLM crane to show up. I’m sure at least one will be moved and I’m going to catch it being moved. It’s a perfectly good theory……I feel justified in checking it out. Thank you, Ms. Stone.
(/sarc—I know the theory is glaciers, but the BLM seemed a niftier theory and one I could actually “prove”.)

observa

Nah it’s those Canadians not being very neighbourly and smashing into you all the time. They need to learn to control their rocks-
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techandscience/ancient-supercontinent-mysteries-revealed-after-17-billion-year-old-chunk-of-canada-found-stuck-to-australia/ar-AAva3tx

tty

That is pretty remarkable. A piece of continent four times older than the Earth. Does it consist of kryptonite I wonder?

Joe Shaw

Did you read even the first paragraph of the article before snarking? 17 in the url is actually 1.7 in the text.

Does this mean that Stonehenge is under threat, too? I know it’s on land now, but with sea level rising and really, really big storms …

DMA

The combination of storms and ice can move huge amounts of material. About 30 years ago an unusual, steady east wind at ice break time up on Fort Peck Reservoir moved the ice that had been pushed to the east shore by the normal winds. The ice was several feet thick and must have covered at least 100 acres. It had enough momentum to break off large pieces of the sandstone shelf along the west shore bluff that stood about 30 feet above the water. We found blocks of ice and rock on top of the bluff piled another 15 feet high. Some of the rocks were over 30 feet long and 3 ft. thick

Ian McCandless

Yeah, but doesn’t ice, like…. float in water, and smash into the shore propelled by wind and current, and then melts leaving only the rock when the water recedes? I’m pretty sure the 60-ton boulder didn’t do that uphill from the ocean.

tty

Don’t be too sure. Arctic coastal ice-push ridges can be pretty impressive. Ten feet thick ice in motion ice can do some remarkable things:
http://www.arctic.uoguelph.ca/cpe/environments/marine_water/features/icepush_ridge.jpg

Ian McCandless

tty- in ONE YEAR?

ResourceGuy

Exxon has vast reach.

“Described in a new paper in the journal Earth Science Reviews, these boulders offer some of the first concrete evidence that storm waves,”

Once again, snowflakes or their equivalents (the horror!), imagine everything known starts when they initiate their study.
A) The researchers utterly fail to calculate what force water can achieve; velocity, mass, per surface area of the rocks.
B) The researchers ignore that water is not air. Submerged rocks are easier to move than rocks completely out of water. I’ve flipped over underwater rocks that would make me a modern Hercules if they were above water and dry. (We were catching hellgrammites for fishing)
C) The researchers fail to look up common massive rock moving events; e.g. flash floods

D) The researchers forget that mankind has a long experience attempting to moderate water’s influence through the use of monster rocks; e.g. jetty construction, dams, dikes, etc.
Storms have damaged many jetties and even destroyed quite a few.
http://customer.djc.com/stories/images/20151022/Jetty1_big.jpg
E) As tty mentions, the Allies in WWII experienced the power of Atlantic storms when a mulberry (artificial harbor) was seriously damaged about by wave action, much as tinker toys would.

sophocles

You missed “lift.” Consider a fast current flowing over and around a curved rock. Water is a lot denser than air. Look at how small an aircraft wing is to generate lift in air. Ok, now move to water. It’s denser than air. It can generate a lot of lift.
Look at hydrofoils—wings in water.
Lift. That’s what moves boulders in streams. Forget buoyancy. Rocks don’t have any.

tty

“Forget buoyancy. Rocks don’t have any.”
Oh yes. They have. A rock of one cubic meter has a buoyancy of one ton. So it is considerably easier to move underwater though its net buoyancy is still negative (unless it is volcanic pumice, which has a density lower than water:comment image?cb=1422602349

Gordon Dressler

What tty posted, plus the fact that very muddy water (such as in a flash flood, even moving along a nearly horizontal surface) has a specific gravity above 1.0. I could not find an on-line source for the maximum or even typical specific gravity of very muddy water, but I suspect it would be in the range of 1.5-2.0. The buoyancy force for a given rock volume will be proportion to the specific gravity of the fluid it is immersed in.

Bob Burban

There are glacial erratics in New England (USA) that exceed 600 tons in weight – they were deposited there more than 9,000 years ago. In granite country, tors on top of hills can easily exceed 600 tons and these eventually end up in the drainages below.

Extreme Hiatus

“Guest eye-rolling by David Middleton”
Breaking: CAGW causing extreme eye rolling!
Twenty years ago, it was possible to say ‘science’ news can’t make so many eyes roll.

Bruce Cobb

I think it’s causing extreme grave-turning as well.

Michael S. Kelly

Article #17-13233: “Storm, rogue wave, or tsunami origin for megaclast deposits in western Ireland and North Island, New Zealand?,” by John F. Dewey and Paul D. Ryan.
I didn’t know Paul Ryan had a PhD. What’s he doing studying boulders, when he’s Speaker of the House. And isn’t John Dewey the guy who invented the decimal point?

JN

If a storm occurs where a poorly calibrated material is available to be mobilized, particularly if there is a large amount of more clay or silty material, any large block can be mobilized, and can even be a 600 tons easily. This is not because of climate change of cours. It happened in the past, it happens today and certainly will happen in the future, provided that the conditions of the place of drainage and the availability of sedimentary material allow it. This is related to the fact that the booster fluid ceases to be water but a mixture of water and sediment, becoming a non-Newtonian fluid. The viscosity of this fluid allows the transport of large particles. Any middle geologist knows this. The example pointed out in a previous commentary, which shows rocks to sustain coastal erosion, is not happy because although the seawaves can be very energetic, capable of mobilizing these blocks and destroying the defense structure, it can not mobilize them too much because the sediments in the breakzone and nearshore do not develop non-Newtonian fluids. In the zone where the waves dominate, the particles are mainly superior to 63 μm (silt and clay are bellow this dimension), in the domain of the sands or larger, and do not provoke this effect. In colder regions where glaciers dominate, the outwash currents from the glaciers, mixed with fine sediment and with a little help from the low temperatures (which help the fluid to become more viscous) large deposits of large particles, sometimes with several kilometers wide, are developed, called outwash plain deposits or Sandur.

Ian McCandless

JN If a storm occurs where a poorly calibrated material is available to be mobilized, particularly if there is a large amount of more clay or silty material, any large block can be mobilized, and can even be a 600 tons easily.
It’s not the storm that mobilizes it: it’s gravity; and I haven’t yet met the nut who denies that. The storm just provides the lower friction-coefficient toallow the force of gravity to achieve a net force that allows movement.. sort of like oil on a wheel, since clearly wet sludge is more slippery than dry dirt.
The question is: HOW COULD ANYBODY NOT KNOW THIS?

JN

Ian, you are certainly right! Of course that the main “engine” it’s gravity. But it’s gravity and the mobilization of particles in a non-Newtonian fluid. Cheers

tty

“large deposits of large particles, sometimes with several kilometers wide, are developed, called outwash plain deposits or Sandur.”
Sandurs are typically fine-grained sandy to silty deposits (I have several from the Younger Dryas near where I live). You may have been misled by the most famous Icelandic sandur Skeidhararsandur which is atypical since it is formed by Jökullhlaups, i e volcanic outburst floods, rather than ordinary periglacial processes like its eastern “neighbor” Breidhamerkursandur.

JN

Yup tty, I was just thinking in that deposit! Went there in 2016. In most cases, the first part of the outwash deposits can have very large boulders. Those are the ones that ‘m referring too. Not only the ones from the terminal moraine. Of course, mostly of the Sandur deposits, mainly the most distal parts, I’ve saw large braided channels transporting large amounts of boulders. Some of them with impressive size.

Michael Darby

Clearly the coal miners of Queensland – the same miners who killed all the polar bears on the Great Barrier Reef are now responsible for random localised gravity fluctuations in Ireland.

willhaas

There is no real evidence that there has been a climate without strong storms. My Mother’s house is in a very benign area yet a recent storm there caused huge bolders to travel miles in a matter of hours. The lasd where she lives is all aluvial and some of the bolders imbeded in the ground are huge. The climate change we have been experiencing has been so small that it takes networks of very sophisticated insturments to even detect it and it is very difficult to distinguish climate change from normal weather cycles. There is no real evidence that the climate change we have been experiencing is responsible for anything let alone the movement of bolders.

tty

Theoretically a very warm climate, like e. g. during the Eocene should be less stormy since temperature gradients were much weaker. However there is as far as I know no geological period without tempestites, i. e. storm deposits.

MarkW

Thunderstorms depend on the amount of energy in the air(temperature and water vapor) along with the vertical temperature gradient.

Hivemind

“Any questions?”
Yes. How do I get a whole lot of money for garbage like that, too?

douglascooper

“Rocks don’t have buoyancy.” Wrong. Their weight is offset by the weight of the water their submerged volume displaces.

Found out what caused it! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2494032/
Stonados.

If that boulder is on sand, I can move it downhill (i.e. “toward the sea”). Just takes a shovel and a moderate amount of time digging out the sand in front of it. And a tolerance of getting crushed if it rolls too far.

The kind of storms that moves these boulders is powered mostly by horizontal temperature gradient. When global temperature changes, the Arc temperature changes more than the temperature of the rest of the world. So global warming actually weakens this kind of storm. Note that these storms are most powerful during cold weather season, not summer.

nobodysknowledge

The story about the Cow and the Bull and the other boulders from Eleuthera in Bahamas is spread around the world, to show the destructiveness and forces of superstorms. It`s an exiting story about what happened in superstorms 118000 years ago, when the wind and waves lifted boulders of up to 2300 tons ashore. The New Theory of Boulder Elevation came from a geologist Paul J. Hearty, and illustrate what we can expect if we don`t agree on a radical reduction of CO2 emission. This was really food for the climate scientist-activist James Hansen. “Hearty, an expert on Bahamas geology, first published in 1997 the idea that Cow and Bull and were hurled to their perch by the sea. Since then, Hansen has given the work much added attention by framing the boulders as Exhibit A for his dire view of climate change — which has drawn doubters in the scientific community.” ”That period was one where, in Hansen’s interpretation, “all hell breaks loose”: a collapse of polar ice, quickly rising seas, a shutdown of heat-transporting ocean circulation, and then superstorms spawned by a greater temperature contrast between warm tropics and cold poles.” Cited from: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/megastorms-that-can-throw-thousand-tonne-boulders-up-cliffs-may-be-on-their-way-back-thanks-to-a6754511.html
What do we know about storms blowing rocks ashore?. We know it can happen. And we know about some instances. For the block at Bondi Beach the original source gives a weight of about 235 t. “Wave-transported during storm in 1912 (Süssmilch, 2012); often cited as an example for largest coastal boulder dimensions observed to have been moved during a storm (Felton and Crook, 2003; Switzer and Burston, 2010; Terry et al., 2013.)” From: Block and boulder transport in Eastern Samar (Philippines) during Supertyphoon Haiyan . S. M. May et al. Quite some difference between heaviest known boulder moved (235 tons) and the superstorm possible move (2300 tons). Ten times stronger waves than anytime during the last 105 years? And should the temperature contrast between warm tropics and cold poles be greater during a globally warm period than during some ice age?
“Hearty and another leading Bahamas geology expert, Pascal Kindler of the University of Geneva in Switzerland, agree that the boulders are older than the surface upon which they rest and, thus, probably were moved by the sea.” Kindler`s theory was that only a tsunami could move that big rocks. In 1996 Hearty wrote that it was possible that the boulders could have been moved by a tsunami. “The waves that transported the boulders may have been initiated by tsunamis, local slumping of the bank margin, or massive storms. The unidirectional flow generated by a tsunami is capable of transporting very large blocks, but if massive storms were responsible, they must have been much larger than those occurring during the Holocene. These findings may have important implications related to global warming during the present interglaciation.” This was forgotten a couple of years later, when it was only superstorms that counted. “ Chevron Ridges and Runup Deposits in the Bahamas from Storms Late in Oxygen-Isotope Substage 5e “. He then had two other geologists with him on The New Theory of Boulder Elevation, A. C. Neumann and D. S. Kaufman.
So, how was The New Theory of Boulder Elevation received among geologists? In 2002 there was presented a paper at The 114th Annual Meeting of the Geological Society of America. It was from the most profiled geologists of Bahamas. Boardman, Mark R., Carew, James L., Mylroie, John E., Panuska, Bruce C., Sealy, Neil E., and Voegeli, Vincent J.: Holocene deposition in Northwest Providence Channel, Bahamas : a geochemical approach. The conclusion was that Hearty and others hadn`t got the age right, and that the boulders was younger than the ground underneath. They had never been moved. “We regard the “boulders” to be residual karst towers, which explains the presence of the caves.”
Of couse Hearty and Hansen held on to The New Theory of Boulder Elevation. So, finally in 2016, when the Paris conference should be arranged, they gathered the climate scientist community around the paper: “Ice melt, sea level rise and superstorms: evidence from paleoclimate data, climate modeling, and modern observations that 2 ◦C global warming could be dangerous”. James Hansen1 , Makiko Sato1 , Paul Hearty2 , Reto Ruedy3,4 , Maxwell Kelley3,4 , Valerie Masson-Delmotte5 , Gary Russell4 , George Tselioudis4 , Junji Cao6 , Eric Rignot7,8 , Isabella Velicogna7,8 , Blair Tormey9 , Bailey Donovan10 , Evgeniya Kandiano11, Karina von Schuckmann12, Pushker Kharecha1,4 , Allegra N. Legrande4 , Michael Bauer4,13 , and Kwok-Wai Lo3,4 . But now with no other geologist than Hearty. But when he had to defend his new theory against his old co-worker Kindler, he came up with some new “geologists”. “Reply to Engel, Kindler, and Godefroid’s comment …” Paul J. Hearty , Blair Tormey, Bailey Donovan , and George Tselioudis. (geologist, master degree geology, geology student and adjunct professor physics) “There is near consensus that the megaboulders on Eleuthera were transported by giant waves around the end of the late last interglacial (end-Eemian; late MIS 5e), and we welcome validation of this conclusion by our colleagues.”

nobodysknowledge

David Middleton. Perhaps you should investigate the case a little better before you spread the fairytales of Hearty and Hansen.

nobodysknowledge

““Ten years ago, it was possible to say storms can’t move 50 ton boulders,” lead study author Rónadh Cox, a professor of geosciences at Williams College, told Earther.”
Cox should know that this is not true. Süssmilch gave out his observations in 1912. And was referred to later, as by Felton and Crook, 2003.
Note on Some Recent Marine Erosion at Bondi. Volum 46 av Jour. and Proc, Roy. soc. of New South Wales
Carl Adolph Süssmilch, 1912.

tty

I have been following Hearty’s publications for a long time and the description above is essentially correct.

Robert THomson

Great to know that this phenomena pre-dates the start of “man made climate change” ………
“The most sublime scene is where a mural pile of porphyry, escaping the process of disintegration that is devastating the coast, appears to have been left as a sort of rampart against the inroads of the ocean. The Atlantic, when provoked by wintry gales, batters against it with all the force of real artillery- the waves having, in their repeated assaults, forced for themselves an entrance. This breach, named the Grind of the Navir, is widened every winter by the overwhelming surge, that, finding a passage through it, separates large stones from its sides, and forces them to a distance of 180 feet. In two or three spots the fragments which have been detached are brought together in immense heaps, that appear as an accumulation of cubical masses, the product of some quarry.” Hibbert-Ware (1822)
https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/travels-geology-scotlands-stunning-shetland
http://www.landforms.eu/shetland/grind%20of%20the%20navir.htm

Patrick MJD

1 cubic meter of water weighs 1 metric tonne. Add inertia to that, 1T at say 30kph, then multiply that by several thousand results in enough energy to move mountains.
When water flows in a big way, best get out of its way.

Peta of Newark

Aw c’mon guys, where’s yer sense of hmuor? Gallantry even. Self awareness.
Maddie is trying to help.
Maddie sincerely has the very best of intentions and desperately wants The World nice nest for her (future?) babies. I’ll get a slap for saying this but “That’s what girls do”
Have you *seriously* got a problem with that?
Hope not.
Almost the entire reason Maddie comes unstuck is with the education she received.
And who was responsible for that, if not the generation above her.
No chance it was that thing you see in a mirror was it………
(Try not to pass any bucks while pondering that)

Philip Finck

I remember a granite slab I mapped back around 1989 in southern Nova Scotia. It was `around’ 150 m long, 10 m high, and around 40 m wide. It was moved as a coherent slab during a minor re-advance of the last ice sheet and deposited on top of glacial outwash (sand and gravel for the non geologists). So at 2.68 mt per cubic metre it works out to be 60,000 mt…..BIG. But that is glaciers, were talking about wave action.
Lets assume that in the paper (which I haven’t read), that the researchers measured the actual position of the boulders, not the position of the boulders relative to the shoreline, e.g as an example the base of a cliff. Cliffs erode, and if that was the case the boulder movement could be, or could be partially movement of the cliff face. I am being mean as I,m sure the researchers aren’t that stupid…… though I have seen many examples of environmental studies folks, or other `experts’ working outside their fields of `expertise` making incredibly stupid claims.
Mapping along cliffs, quantifying coastal erosion, I have seen many boulders move seaward…. it is what boulders do. Waves do not need to move the boulder, they erode sand, gravel, cobbles, other smaller boulders around the base and under the boulder and the boulder moves down slope…gravity as many people mentioned. This is something that a student would learn in first year geology.
Also remember that the force of a breaking wave is much, much, much greater than a non breaking wave in a marine setting. In the marine setting the energy of a non breaking wave simply moves through the water….there is little movement of the actual water. However when a wave breaks, the force in which it hits an object is incredible. Remember the old F = ma. When the wave breaks the m is the mass of the actual water. In a non breaking wave the mass is very little. So things such as high or low tide can have a big effect on say movement of the boulder. Just the right tide height so that the waves break against the boulder, and scour at the base, along with loss of effective weight in water…. and away it goes.
Wish I could be `published’ for discovering that boulders move from the top to the base of a beach. sarc.

J.H.

Climate Change stole my dingo.

The doomsday clock just moved to: two boulders to midnight and it is scary

J Mac

The moving stones are Ogri, silicon based life forms from the planet Ogros in the Tau Ceti system.
Dr. Who – The Stones Of Blood episode