Guest lampooning by David Middleton
Hopefully, this post won’t have as many typos as my last post.
I just love ridiculing The Grauniad…
The news that many water companies use dowsing to locate underground water has prompted outraged demands from scientists that they desist at once from wasting time and money on “medieval witchcraft”. They are right to call this practice deluded. But it reveals how complicated the relationship is between scientific evidence and public belief.
When the science blogger Sally Le Page highlighted the issue after her parents spotted an engineer dowsing for Severn Trent Water, the company responded to her query by claiming that “we’ve found some of the older methods are just as effective than [sic] the new ones” (such as the use of drones and satellite imaging). The engineer concerned told her parents that dowsing works for him eight times in 10.
Further inquiry elicited the comment from Yorkshire Water that “although few and far between, some of our techs still use them!”, while Anglian Water said: “There have been occasions where we’ve used dowsing rods.” Le Page says that 10 out of 12 British water companies she approached have admitted to the practice. But “admitted” isn’t quite the right word; what is striking is the jaunty tone of these responses, as if to say: “Yes, isn’t it extraordinary that these old methods work?”
Let’s be clear: dowsing doesn’t work. Le Page’s blog links to detailed experiments conducted in Germany in the 1980s which showed that the dowsers tested weren’t locating water at levels better than random chance.
[…]
The resistance to basic scientific reasoning and evidence displayed by large businesses that also deploy cutting-edge space technology may seem lamentable, but it shouldn’t surprise us. It has never been more apparent that an inability to make scientifically informed choices is no obstacle to flourishing in modern society.
[…]
Given that company executives and engineers seem no more immune to pseudoscience than the rest of the population, it’s not obvious that better public education about science is going to dispel the modern-day survival of concepts rooted in Renaissance natural magic. (Whether the public should be expected to bear any costs incurred is quite another matter.) Rather, these beliefs need to be understood – and if necessary confronted – in the way that all magical thinking should be: as an expression of desire and the need for consolation.
•Philip Ball is a science writer
This bit is worth repeating…
The resistance to basic scientific reasoning and evidence displayed by large businesses that also deploy cutting-edge space technology may seem lamentable, but it shouldn’t surprise us. It has never been more apparent that an inability to make scientifically informed choices is no obstacle to flourishing in modern society.
Given that company executives and engineers seem no more immune to pseudoscience than the rest of the population…
It always amuses me when academic pinheads and “science writers” lament about private sector scientists and engineers resisting the “basic scientific reasoning and evidence” which they reject.
While, there are lots of reasons to doubt that dowsing can directly detect water, minerals, lost jewelry or anything else. Dowsing can detect subtle variations in the Earth’s magnetic field… And the presence of groundwater can cause magnetic anomalies.
ABSTRACT
Perturbations on the earth’s magnetic field may coincide with the existence of groundwater. Theoretical calculations are made showing how and to what extent this effect may exist. The suggestion is also made that water dowsers may get a dowsing reaction as a result of entering a change in magnetic gradient. Tests were conducted to determine the statistical significance of dowsing reactions obtained by separate individuals dowsing in a common test area. Approximately 150 people participated in the experiment over a period of one year. Chi·square tests showed considerable statistical significance. Virtually all people tested experienced dowsing reactions though most of them had never dowsed before. There is some evidence of correlation between magnetic gradient changes and dowsing reactions.
Chadwick, Duane G. and Jensen, Larry, “The Detection of Magnetic Fields Caused by Groundwater” (1971). Reports. Paper 568. http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/water_rep/568
There are reasons why scientists and engineers, with decades of experience in their fields and successful track records, might just choose to ignore the lamentations of academic pinheads and “science writers” and continue to employ practical methodologies despite the “outraged demands from scientists” to cease and desist.
Disclaimer: As a professional geologist, I am not endorsing dowsing as a method of finding anything. I’m just pointing out that the real world operates in a totally different universe than government, academia and journalism do.
Featured image from Wikipedia.
In the late 1970s our Company Secretary received a letter asking if we could make available our Cessna Citation to fly fast and high above Australia, while the letter writer noted for us those locations he detected while in flight as propitious for new mineral discoveries. For a large up front fee.
The letter was signed. Uri Geller.
I leave it to the readers here to guess if we engaged his consultancy. Geoff.
But Geller now lives in a mansion he bought with money made from dowsing for oil companies (he says).
City engineer 50 years ago taught me how to dowse with bent coat hangers as shown in first picture. We had old wood stave water pipes which the state-of-art pipe finders couldn’t reliably locate. Dowsing worked with those, and also with concrete sewer pipe. As I recall, the hangers would rotate across each other for a full (water) pipe, and rotate away from each other for an empty (sewer or storm drain) pipe. Or the other way around. Years later I tried with bent brazing wire with similar results.
Of course, why should anyone doubt such an accounting.
Your reference to a City Engineer and the difference between full and empty pipes gives it just the right panache to erase my doubts.
So, now this effect is shown to work on all pipes, on wood with no water in them, on groundwater including mere cracks 85 meters down, and never fails.
Gosh, are we all in the wrong line of work or what?
A problem for the water diviner bent stick person is determining when there is zero response, as in what does the rod do when there is no water within range.
There will almost always be some water down there.
One of the big surprises from my time in exploration was that very few people, even professionals, knew what was below the surface in terms of main components of soil profiles, rock weathering, ground water, water tables, artesian water, natural reservoirs, rock porosity, permeability, etc.
The wrong picture of what is down there might have come from fairy tales about underground civilisations, rivers with adjacent fields way below surface, Jules Verve stories, Al Gore’s rather hot core temperature estimate and so on.
It is not surprising that people getting into water divining territory have very little understanding of wat exists sub surface. They might not be armed to ask the right questions and they are not good at assessing the answers.
What is surprising is the reluctance of many people to accept the correct scientific explanation to replace the fairy tales.
Which heels explain why WUWT is not just popular, but vitally needed by society in general to question the fairy tales within the global warming propaganda.
There are sincere people here, writing about water divining and believing in it. There are also sincere people writing about global warming and believing in it. Now do you see again, the obstacles in moving towards the best scientific understanding of both? Geoff.
Very discouraging overall, to me.
But illuminating.
As I noted, there have been a few of these comment threads showing similar results from time to time.
The wheat is separated thusly from the chafe.
IMO, any regular commenters who read this thread and hold their tongue are no better than real scientists who stay silent in the face of rampant alarmism.
OK, good enough.
Dowsing is BUNK!
I should not need to speak out, but the great number of people who accept dousing gave me pause.
Allow me to digress:
Back when I was in grad school –
{me}: Why is this system doing this crazy thing? We do not understand this!
{Prof}: Anything not understood might be the basis for a *new* analytical method of chemical analysis. It is possible that Fame and Fortune await.
{me}: OK!
With money to be made, dowsing never showed up anywhere it could be measured. With money to be made with a new technique, dowsing is conspicuously absent.
Pseudosciences tend to carry a self-imposed tax on the gullible.
the well by my Fathers century old cottage on Dartmoor in Devon suddenly dried up some years ago. He was told that the hot summer had led to a crack in the wall of the well and that the water would not return. Due to the remoteness of the cottage there was no main supply nearby. I suggested a water diviner much to my Father’s scorn, but there was one listed in Yellow pages. He came and asked for a plan of the property and then started stabbing different areas with a Biro and suggested that while one spot would give more water, as it was down a slope, a more powerful pump would be required and recommended a point nearer the cottage where, he claimed water would be found at 110 feet with a supply of so many gallons an hour. My father decided to risk calling in a drilling company and so it proved. Not only did he know where to find water but how much. He was unable to explain this ability and he used no rods or any other equipment, just a map and a pen.
Why not just install new casing in the old well?
That’s not as “romantic” as plying the Yellow Pages for odd balls in Devon. I mean Devonshire colic was nothing to do with poisoning after all.
Because he was told by someone other than a water diviner that the water would not return?
Shouldn’t that waterboard engineer use a magnetometer instead of a forked piece of wood?
It takes more than one water engineer to set up and run a magnetic field survey.
If dowsing works, as described in the Utah State University study, it doesn’t work like a metal detector.
menicholas, if’n yr still reading…
I think it was Max Photon, not you, who got excited about plasma universe – and only for a day.
I misremebered, mea culpa, my apologies!
Anyway, great effort from you today railing against the Oija board people in our ranks. 🙂 Kudos.
Still reading…I forgive you too!
Believe it or not, I once found my wifes lost cell phone with divining rods (bent hangar wire). It took me several minutes and found it in the garage behind the trash can we keep there for recycling. I think it worked because the metal rods were attracted to it’s ringing.
That aside, I found this post to be most interesting aside from menicholas constant putting people down throughout the thread to not make his point. I can understand his reasons for not believing it, but not his persistence at proving he too can be an a$$.
If you do not know why, I likely cannot explain it to you.
But I will try a little anyway.
One reason we have the effed up mess that is CAGW is because people are far too reticent to do what I did here last night.
Everyone wants to be nice, and to fit in and avoid stepping on toes, if the people spouting nonsense are on the same side on some other issue or issues. It started out small, and snowballed into a situation which threatens the integrity of science itself, which has resulted in the mass miseducation of millions of children…entire generations, and which has empowered people who would steal our very freedom.
The end game of the CAGW fascists is world domination, nothing less…the globalists see it in their grasp to reorganize the world under their fist by grabbing the means by which our entire civilization is powered.
And it is given credence in large part by legions of people who know enough to call bullshit on the alarmists and rent seekers…but they do not say anything…it would not be polite.
Sorry if you do not understand that.
I am shocked by the long list of people here who have said what they have said.
If that rubs you the wrong way, too bad…grow a thicker skin.
Or maybe it was my momma when she done run oft with that dowser man.
Mods.
Can you approve my new and improved handle, John “menicholas” Nefastis, so my comments will post?
Pretty please? Thanks in advance.
No need to grow a thick skin, you did not rub me the wrong way. I doubt dowsers are looking for world domination through mass miseducation of millions of children…entire generations, which would empower people who would steal our very freedom.
Unlike CAGW scientists educating folks about their favorite world ending subject, here we had people who were sharing their own experiences and stories with dowsing, pretty tame in my book, no need to attack them. You could have made your position clear in one or two posts which seems to be that there is no proof. I dont think most posting would disagree. But, that does not negate folks wishing to express their own experiences and stories on the topic.
Well said Go Home. Everyone was content sharing their experiences… until he started in with his badgering and labeling people as having lost all credibility. Dowsing has been around for a very long time and many scientific studies have tried and failed in their testing methods to discover what makes it work. An AOL search for “dowsing” has about 1,640,000 results.
http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/Dowsing.htm
This is a study on the studies testing dowsers from over a century of them being done. On page 362 the first thing said in the final comments section is…”In spite of the large number of investigations made into dowsing, its status remains unclear. This is largely a result of sloppy experimental procedures and or report writing.” And goes on from there.
https://barryhopewell.com/2017/11/23/dowsing/comment-page-1/
I like what is said in this short article and some of the comments. “I’m not trying to denigrate science itself, which is a wonderful way of understanding aspects of the world and developing technologies which enhance our lives. It is the closed mind of materialism, and the denial of possible alternative explanations and approaches to the world, that actually contradict the very spirit of science.”
“Dismissing things because of your own credulous beliefs is not science.”
Go Home,
I did not put anyone down, and it was not constant, but sporadic.
Maybe Menicholas’ mother ran off with a water diviner when he was a little boy?
Oooooohhhhhh!
I hid my secret so well…how did you know?
IMHO, when the divining rods come out, you’ve either got an engineer (it was my boss) that was bored and wanted to test the things, or he was really at wits ends.
I was too young and inexperienced to tell which one it was.
I don’t remember being impressed by the results though.
I do not know about water
But dowsing seems to be indicative of buried pipelines and electric lines
Some years ago I designed a reservoir that was near to a pipe carrying gas from the North Sea. Before it could be built we were required to dig down and show its exact location.to a representative of the gas company. The representative came to the site with two bent welding rods, wandered across the field and where they swung together marked a spot with a pole. I and the contractor’s representative were skeptical and repeated the experiment some distance from the original marker and each other. The three marker poles were in a straight line and when we dug down the pipe was there.
I had a job burying telephone cable. We always had to dig, gently, by hand to locate buried gas lines and electrical cables. Etc. Often the land owner could only vaguely recall the location of the invisible obstacle. We had to dig, but where, exactly should we start? I used dowsing rods, and where they crossed, we’d gently plant a shovel. Usually, we found the gas line or cable right away.
Dowsing is no better than guessing, but when you have to guess anyway, it makes no difference what guessing method you use.
It also makes a great make-work job for public sector unions.
The Divining Hand: The 500-year-old history of Dowsing (2000) by Christopher Bird is $40 new (paperback) and $14 used on Amazon at:
https://www.amazon.com/Divining-Hand-year-old-Mystery-Dowsing/dp/0924608161/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1511636546&sr=8-1&keywords=divining+hand
It tells of the success of the marines in detecting enemy tunnels in Vietnam with dowsing (p. 208), of General Patton’s reliance on dowsing in N. Africa (p. 217), onto Parisian dowsers in correctly locating underground quarry holes dug by the Romans (p. 11), of Soviet geologists in locating mineral deposits, (p. 229), of a Russian dowser in locating “wolf holes” (cavalry detergents) at the Borodino battleground (p. 240), and of an employee of Harvard’s Facilities Maintenance Department in locating underground pipes (p. 313).
The Secret Vaults of Time: Psychic Archaeology and the Quest for Man’s Beginnings (1978) by Stephen A. Schwartz is $7.50 (hardback) and $10 (Kindle) on Amazon at:
https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Vaults-Time-Archaeology-Beginnings-ebook/dp/B00EA361H4/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1511643642&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Secret+Vaults+of+Time
Chapters 3 & 4 describe the very successful use of dowsing in locating the most fruitful places to dig at archaeological sites in Britain and Canada.
One White Crow by George McMullen describes his experience with using psychic dowsing to assist at archaeological sites, mostly in Canada. In addition he has used “psychometry” (getting vibes from holding an object that tell about who owned it, what it was used for, when it was made, where it was dug up, etc.). Archaeologists have tested him with hundreds of objects and given him an 80% accuracy rating. It’s about $3 plus shipping for a used paperback on Amazon at https://www.amazon.com/One-White-Crow-George-McMullen/dp/1571740074/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1511657177&sr=1-1&keywords=one+white+crow
Roger,
Another interesting read about the dangers of dreadfully bad science is the Summary for Policymakers with the 5th Assessment Report of the IPPC.
You must have near zero or even negative ability to separate propaganda from science. Would you really promote a book describing Cold War tactics as reliably free from passages of deliberate deception?
Sorry, but if you and others here believe unreservedly in dousing, I do not want you on my side as I continue to criticise the poor science in various IPCC writings. Geoff
Geoff Sherrington November 26, 2017 at 2:15 am:
“Another interesting read about the dangers of dreadfully bad science is the Summary for Policymakers with the 5th Assessment Report of the IPPC.”
I’m aware of its many flaws, having followed this site for over eight years, and making thousands of comments.
“You must have near zero or even negative ability to separate propaganda from science. Would you really promote a book describing Cold War tactics as reliably free from passages of deliberate deception?”
Huh? Are you suggesting that the parts of C. Bird’s book about the marines using dowsing to detect enemy tunnels (and booby traps) was disinformation? The author interviewed some of the personnel involved in this matter, and quoted marine documents about it. And that was only one of the real-world successes. Pages 315–20 describe outstanding drilling successes by Western NGOs in well-drilling in India and Sri Lanka, for instance.
“Sorry, but if you and others here believe unreservedly in dousing, I do not want you on my side”
I’m not an unreserved believer. I found that the rods turn for me when I walk over buried pipes or under electrical wires in my backyard. However, I can’t detect which cardboard box covers a hidden anvil. What I’d like to see done is a better testing protocol, one that tests whether dowsers can pinpoint long-buried pipes whose location can be confirmed by maps and/or advanced ground-penetrating gadgets. There must be lots of sites at colleges or defunct factories where testing could be done at little expense. Students could be recruited for small payments to do the dowsing, after filtering out those with no talent in a pre-test qualification run. To make matters interesting, there could be side-bets about the dowsers’ success rate with Skeptics in attendance, hopefully including Randi.
I now realize that what you [(GS)] meant by “Would you really promote a book describing Cold War tactics as reliably free from passages of deliberate deception?” was my statement, “Soviet geologists in locating mineral deposits, (p. 229).” OK, lets dismiss that claim. The others remain.
“GS”, not “GOES”. (My shorthand got expanded when I wasn’t looking.)
I had a dowser explain one day the “dowsing” is originally associated with locating of find – something. Water dowsing is what we are most exposed to, and perhaps the most likely use. I find it interesting that unless we can break something down to terms we can comprehend, it must not be.
And it doesn’t work for everyone. If it works for you, use it. If not use other methods.
the company responded to her query by claiming that “we’ve found some of the older methods are just as effective than [sic] the new ones” (such as the use of drones and satellite imaging).
The above is the key to it all.
Just because something is expensive and high-tech doesn’t mean it works better than random chance or a more primitive method.
If the company has found that the cheap method works as well (or similarly poorly) as a more expensive method, they should go with the cheap method.
Every water and sewer department in my area has professional dowsing rods similar to these https://www.amazon.com/C-Green-cgreendr-Copper-Dowsing/dp/B003115X5M/ref=sr_1_6?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1511671992&sr=1-6&keywords=dowsing+rods along with people who “know” how to use them. They do not work for me, even over known pipe locations. Other people who believe in them watch me walk with them just like they do and when nothing happens are mystified. I’m not.
A pair of bent steel welding rods worked for me when locating buried steel pipelines, including a good idea of orientation when not approaching at right angles. Kept the locals amused as well.
It does take a little bit of practice to learn how to hold the steel rods properly. They must be held as freely as possible to enable turning and ever so slightly tilted by forearm rotation so that that they point in opposite directions parallel to your body. I am sure that the forces involved are miniscule. I have never used a wood dousing stick or nonferrous metals so I cannot comment on these materials.
One last comment, the rods I used are about 22 gauge steel with a very thin copper plating and are not insulated by a coating. They are each about 1.5 feet long with a 90 degree bend at 6 inches that you hold on to.
Sure it´s works! Bull sk-t that water devening is “bunk”!!
Don’t know if anyone has talked about this but if not here’s a possible explanation for how dowsing works:
I’m sure you’ve heard of Galvano and his frog’s legs which twitched when an electric current was applied to them. The dowsing rod moves due to involuntary contractions of the muscles in the dowser’s arm or fingers in response to a change in the atmospheric electric fields cause by the presence of a conductive water bearing location. The dowsing rod merely magnifies the involuntary twitching of the muscles carrying it.
Probably no one will see this but there it is – the explanation.
Dowsing works but it doesn’t detect water. It detects structural change in the ground including digging trenches to bury pipes with or without water in them. Many so called experiments along the lines as mentioned above, operate on a false premise and are therefor useless.
We hired a water well driller to dig 2 wells for us; 1 on my property and 1 on my son’s property. The driller was 65 years old and had drilled water wells all over western Canada.
Before he started our first question to him was how do you determine where to set up the rig. Well he said the e-log records for this area are good so I have a good idea at what depth I’ll have to obtain to find a good water supply so it’s up to you. Where do you want your well?
What if an area has no records; have you seen other methods like witching? Well he said I’ve seen it but I have little faith in it. It seems like guesswork to me. If I have no knowledge or records for an area I set the rig on the highest rise of land in the immediate area.
Long story short, the experienced hand drilled 2 very good wells for us with a plentiful supply of water in each and no dowsing was required.