Guest post by David Middleton
The Strata group at Utah State University recently published a study on the “footprint of energy.” For each energy source, the calculated the full-cycle land use required to generate 1 MW of electricity from each source of energy. Despite the fact that they included the land required to drill and mine for natural gas and coal, all of the processing and transportation requirements, as well as power plant footprints, fossil fuels and nuclear power were the clear winners, by a long-shot.
Modern society requires a tremendous amount of electricity to function, and one of this generation’s greatest challenges is generating and distributing energy efficiently. Electricity generation is energy intensive, and each source leaves its own environmental and ecological footprint. Although many studies have considered how electricity generation impacts other aspects of the environment, few have looked specifically at how much land different energy sources require.
This report considers the various direct and indirect land requirements for coal, natural gas, nuclear, hydro, wind, and solar electricity generation in the United States in 2015. For each source, it approximates the land used during resource production, by energy plants, for transport and transmission, and to store waste materials. Both one-time and continuous land-use requirements are considered. Land is measured in acres and the final assessment is given in acres per megawatt.
Specifically, this report finds that coal, natural gas, and nuclear power all feature the smallest physical footprint of about 12 acres per megawatt produced. Solar and wind are much more land intensive technologies using 43.5 and 70.6 acres per megawatt, respectively. Hydroelectricity generated by large dams has a significantly larger footprint than any other generation technology using 315.2 acres per megawatt.
While this report does not attempt to comprehensively quantify land requirements across the entire production and distribution chain, it does cover major land components and offers a valuable starting point to further compare various energy sources and facilitates a deeper conversation surrounding the necessary trade-offs when crafting energy policy.
[…]
| Chart 1: Land Use by Electricity Source in Acres/MW Produced | |
| Electricity Source Acres per Megawatt Produced | |
| Coal | 12.21 |
| Natural Gas | 12.41 |
| Nuclear | 12.71 |
| Solar | 43.5 |
| Wind | 70.64 |
| Hydro | 315.22 |
Strata receives at least some funding from those great Americans: The Koch Brothers. They are also very up-front about their economic philosophy:
Thought leaders and authors we tend to follow:
Friedrich Hayek
Adam Smith
Ronald Coase
Joseph Schumpeter
Elinor Ostrom
James Buchanan
Gordon Tullock
Milton Friedman
MILTON FRIEDMAN… 




I just couldn’t resist taking their results and seeing if I could make renewables look even worse… And it was easy.
The U.S. currently has 274 GW of coal-fired generating capacity (274,000 megawatts). Using the capacity factors in the EIA’s most recent LCOE analysis, I calculated how many MW of each source would be required to replace 274 GW of coal and then used Strata’s per MW footprint to calculate the footprint required by each source, if it completely replaced coal.
| MW | ac/MW | Total Footprint (ac) | Sq. Miles | Capacity Factor | |
| Coal | 274,000 | 12.21 | 3,345,540 | 5,227 | 0.85 |
| Capacity-Adjusted MW | ac/MW | Total Footprint (ac) | Sq. Miles | Capacity Factor | |
| Natural Gas | 267,701 | 12.41 | 3,322,171 | 5,191 | 0.87 |
| Nuclear | 258,778 | 12.71 | 3,289,066 | 5,139 | 0.90 |
| Solar PV | 970,417 | 43.5 | 42,213,125 | 65,958 | 0.24 |
| Wind | 597,179 | 70.64 | 42,184,759 | 65,914 | 0.39 |
| Hydro | 394,746 | 315.22 | 124,431,759 | 194,425 | 0.59 |
Then I related the footprint of each source to U.S. States.
| Sq. miles | |
| Connecticut | 4,845 |
| Nuclear | 5,139 |
| Natural Gas | 5,191 |
| Coal | 5,227 |
| Hawaii | 6,423 |
| Georgia | 57,906 |
| Wind | 65,914 |
| Solar PV | 65,958 |
| Washington | 66,544 |
| California | 163,696 |
| Hydro | 194,425 |
| Texas | 268,581 |
For hydroelectric, I used the total areas of California and Texas. Otherwise, I just used land areas.

Some may say, “That’s silly! No single power source is expected to replace coal.” This is true, however some people think that wind, solar and hydroelectric can provide 100% of our electricity. In which case we would need a Georgia-sized wind farm, a Washington-sized solar farm and a hydroelectric capacity (including the rivers) almost as big as Texas.
Or, we could just roll with three Connecticut-sized footprints: Coal, natural gas and nuclear.
Glossary
LCOE: Levelized cost of electricity.
MW: Megawatt
GW: Gigawatt = 1,000 MW
Featured image source:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2TFvwUqpds
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No, the whole idea is to conserve, so actually producing power is irrelevant./sarc
[sarcasm noted and appreciated]
OTOH, there are those MANY enviro-Nazis, such as Tom Holdren, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Holdren, obama’s senior advisor [science and tech], who advocated strongly for such conservation while “non-conserving” human global population. If I recall correctly, he is in the group which advocated for total global human population = 500,000. Such people would NOT recognize nor appreciate the sarcasm in your statement.
Power generation from solar and wind is a function of land area and is therefore not scalable for general human consumption. Solar/wind cannot decide to ramp up existing output to meet increasing demand, they each require building more units.
but, unless Tesla EVs and the like make a difference in the future, isn’t US power demand declining?
And there’s a lot more energy saving from the likes of LEDs to come
All future solutions depend on scalability!
Yes, but only marginally. And that is expected to turn-around soon.
No, further conservation efforts will yield little reduction in overall electrical demand. It’s called the law of diminishing returns.
In my state demand is still growing, just not as fast as it was previously. Efficiency is kicking in, but more and more megawatt-hunger server farms are being built to serve Google, Amazon, Facebook, etc. They are contracting to get “100%” of the new load supplied by renewables, but we all know what that means. The grid is still being used to absorb the overage and supply the underage to make sure they have power all the time and not be subject to the intermittancy of renewables.
And, as the economy recovers, the loads will continue to rise overall, but maybe not in states that suppress growth through onerous taxation and anti-business regulation.
The blight factor is a significant metric when determining the composition of the energy production basket in individual ecosystems.
I grew up in Texas so maybe I have some antiquated property rights ideas. If I want to build a house on my property you don’t get to veto it just because you think its ugly. If I raise pigs you don’t get to veto them just because their smelly. If I want to frac you don’t get a veto just because you prefer solar power. If I want to lease my land to a wind farm… Well, you get the idea.
If you lived in Houston, where almost all neighborhoods have HOA’s… You’re neighbors in the HOA would have a veto if they thought your house was ugly, pigs smelly or even how many dogs you can have.
While, Texas State law prohibits local governments from regulating oil & gas activities, the City of Dallas won’t allow fracking within city limits… However, there’s very little to frack under Dallas. The Barnett barely gets into the city limits.
That said, if a pipeline company wants to run a common carrier pipeline across your property, they can use eminent domain to do so. Texas State law provides for this,
David,
Do your figures cover only replacement (Nameplate capacity) or are Capacity factors and generating restrictions factored in. I believe that it takes almost 4 tmes as much generation to offset fossil generation.
Also, does it include the needed additional capacity to charge batteries during the daylight hours? (capacity in addition to that immediately utilized for daily functioning)
I simply “normalized” everything to coal. Using the EIA’s 2017 LCOE capacity factors. It’s labeled “Capacity-Adjusted MW” in the table. It would take 970 GW of solar or 597 GW of wind to offset 274 GW of coal.
Sounds just about right, I kept coming up with 3 times and 4 times as much capacity as well, but this was for current average annual usage and not the increased energy necessary for electrifying transportation.
chadb: That’s probably true, but you might consider what I do to my property in response.
That’s exactly right, property rights are under assault pretty much everywhere and it always concerns me when people refer to “our” land use ,as if all land use should be decided by public planners with little or no regard for those who own and pay taxes on “our” land.
I’m making a wild guess about what the ‘blight factor’ is.
When an oil or gas well is done, the site doesn’t need much remediation. On the other hand, when a strip mine is done, the problem is significant. It seems to me that the two cases are orders of magnitude different.
Having said the above, a properly remediated strip mine looks a lot better than a solar farm and the environment is way more natural. link
Unless you are familiar with the reclamation process,. you probably cannot pick out where an old strip mine was. There are very few clues to the area’s past life.
How do you measure the land use impact of a coal slurry dam failure or the carry cost of on-site nuclear waste storage with security expense? These are non trivial analytics issues.
The study isn’t about expenses. It’s about land use requirements. Land use requirements for coal and nuclear waste materials is addressed on pages 3-4 and 8-11.
http://www.strata.org/pdf/2017/footprints-full.pdf
The same way you measure the radioactive tailings dams created in china to produce the rare earths necessary for wind turbines?
and smartphones and many other consumer devices. The problem is low chinese environmental standards in all industry, not that renewables require polluting mines/manufacture.
Then what about the cost of removing and disposing of solar panels? How about the cost of removing wind towers and the huge concrete base? We could play this game all day.
Been there, done that…
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/06/29/toxic-waste-from-solar-panels-300-times-that-of-nuclear-power/
Ah, the specious nightmare fears spread by rumor and innuendo.
You are correct. They are non trivial analytics, they’re specious claims thrown about by the trivial.
Tell us about the wanton deaths of raptors, scavengers, bats and migrating wildlife?
Or the artificial land desolation caused by massive solar arrays and wind farms?
Not forgetting the wind turbine impacts to humans, livestock and wildlife living near those false science edifices.
Can solar/wind electricity provide high quality, extremely consistent electricity needed to run industrial equipment? Of refine ore into the specific alloys needed for bearings, armatures, windings, structures of wind turbines?
The answer is, no.
Those subsidized absurdly expensive inefficient monuments to politicized science require near 100% backup by sources that can provide consistent high quality electricity.
Politics that forces wind and solar power usage as primary sources, instead of the reliable energy sources.
Solar: not short of parking lots or rooftops in the US, I think?
Did you factor in energy saving/demand management?
What size wind turbine did you allow for? If you put a few windfarms with the new 8MW turbines of the E coast, that cuts the space down on land perhaps?
and of course with coal and nuclear plants still closing and nobody building any more, their footprint is going down… old coal mines and old coal power plants are ideal for solar too.
Parking lots have vehicles parked on them during the day. Doh!
He was probably thinking of parking garages… Most of which have parking spaces on the roof.
Parking garages usually have parking on the roof also–that’s way too much space to waste. I often prefer parking on top because my car will be so much easier to see, and in the winter will be warmed by the sun, if any. The idea of using them for solar panels seems ludicrous to me.
Paul,
Well, to be the Devil’s Advocate here, one could elevate the panels and provide shade for the vehicles. That would be most appreciated in Phoenix. On the other hand, if you tried that in Rochester, and the panels collapsed on the cars after an exceptional lake-effect snow, the car owners might not be thrilled. Speaking of which, how does one clean off 4′ of snow on thin, delicate PV panels?
Paul, you can put solar over a parking lot. It also provides handy shade.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/01/28/the-best-idea-in-a-long-time-covering-parking-lots-with-solar-panels/?utm_term=.251176f15067
Just to be clear, there are already hundreds of parking lots with solar panels over them. NRG signed an agreement with Kaiser to put them in at all Kaiser’s Western health facilities (which may have gone with NRG reorg, haven’t kept up, but proves the practicality)
There’s an industrial wind plant here where there was a coal mine. Thousands of dollars in reclamation shot down with huge towers that mar the land. What a waste of money on all accounts.
My folks are from a coal mining town… I stayed next to the mines as a child.
I cannot see that a coal mine is more pleasing to the eye -or better for the health – for the inhabitants of an area.
It’s much, much better. Coal produces energy 24/7. The mine does not stand 400 feet in the air and turn 300,000 acres of the prairie and mountains into an industrial area. It serves a purpose other than to make billionaires richer and richer and shaft the residence of the area.
Do you live next a wind plant? Are your recreational areas being turned into turbine jungles? Is your cabin 10 miles from 60 gigantic spinning towers of avian death? Would you love looking at hundreds of towers everywhere your drive, instead of herds of elk, mountain views, wildflowers, etc? How in the world can a mine at eye level, or below, covering only a few acres (versus hundreds for the turbines) be less of a disturbance than hundreds of spinning (occasionally) 400 foot towers? Either you’re blind or you have a very warped view of what’s ascetically pleasing. Nature is now concrete and steel.
Willful ignorance at full sail.
Solar: still no power 50% of the time.
More like 75% in most places.
This is a site which tracks daily electricity production and demand in California, by source.
http://www.caiso.com/outlook.html
“ old coal mines and old coal power plants are ideal for solar too.”
Shur nuff, Griff, …….. old coal mines are a wonderful place for disposing of old worn-out solar panels.
Finally, you comment contained something worthwhile ……. even though I’m sure the enviros “greenies” would adamantly oppose it.
There are 58 nuclear power reactors currently being built around the world.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/facts-and-figures/world-nuclear-power-reactors-and-uranium-requireme.aspx
Don’t forget about the renewables technology risk!
How the hydro land use requirement was arrived at leaves me wondering. What metric was used to “normalize” the sizing assessments?
The amount of energy derived depends on flow and pressure head. The pressure head comes from the elevation difference between the level of the reservoir and the level of the turbines, not on acreage of the reservoir. The capacity of the dam will determine the flow capability. A smallish reservoir will need to restrict its flow so as to not be drained as quickly. The flow rate that maintains pressure head equilibrium of the reservoir is dependent on the watershed replenishing it.
The acreage of the reservoir is the vast majority of the land use footprint of a hydroelectric plant.
Lake Powell is probably >99% of the footprint of the Glen Canyon Dam hydroelectric plant.
This is where I take issue with the study. While it is easy to measure the footprint of the reservoir and mark that down it’s not that accurate. They have shifted land use, but the reservoir has not become wasted space unsuitable for anything else. Do we consider lakes waste space? The reservoir is useful for far more than just creating electricity. Flood control. A supply of drinking water, recreational area, etc.
On the other hand most of the other energy sources pretty much restrict their land use to them and nothing else.
It’s not a matter of whether or not the reservoir is multi-use. Based on the average footprint of existing hydroelectric power plants, it would require an area equivalent to 72% of Texas or 118% of California.
You would get Far Greater descrepancies in land use if you only calculated the land used for generation
Diablo Canyon nuclear generation sits on 12 acres to produce 2200MW
I’ve done that before and the discrepancy is much larger. However, the mining, drilling and transportation of coal and natural gas is a significant factor.
Ivanpah sits on 4000 acres and produces 392MW
To produce 2200MW and replace Diablo (12 acres), the Ivanpah facility would require 22,000 acres,
1833.3 times as much land
Ok that’s the metric I was looking for. You determine the average sized reservoir that feeds a hydroelectric facility and then determined the ratio of average power generated for said average reservoir? Given the wide discrepancies between low head ponds and large deep reservoirs isn’t the mash-up a bit misleading and rather a useless metric?
Compound upon this that the reservoir is probably used for other water needs (drinking) might not the size of the reservoir more be determined by other factors rather than strictly for power generation? A good many small scale hydro generation facilities use small retention ponds with long enclosed penstocks to obtain a larger head. These would skew the values differently.
It doesn’t matter if the reservoir is multi-use. In order to have a hydroelectric plant, you generally have to impound a reservoir. High head, low head, deep, shallow don’t matter.
The only things that matter for land use footprint are 1) MW and 2) area.
Take the case of the flood control (multi use recreation & irrigation as well) dam; then, 20 years after construction of the dam add electric generation because the 90% of the infrastructure is already there and demand has grown. Now calculate the required footprint of the hydro generation.
A significant percentage (with respect to the overall land use impact outcome as presented/depicted) of the dams were going to be there anyway.
The fact remains that in order to build a hydroelectric power plant, you generally need to impound a reservoir with a dam.
This is akin to arguing that the upstream footprint of natural gas shouldn’t be counted if the well also produced oil. After all, you were going to produce the oil anyway and probably would have flared the gas if there hadn’t been a pipeline nearby.
That analogy only works if the oil wells were 5 to 10 times as large of an impact as they need to have been because they were also used for irrigation, flood control, & recreation.
The height of the water behind the dam determines the potential energy available to the turbines. The footprint of a hydroelectric plant is dictated by the height of then dam and the shape of the impounded river valley. Shallow, broad valleys will have larger footprints than deep, narrow valleys.
Most really big hydroelectric plants are associated with tall dams that impounded relatively deep, narrow valleys.
Dams and reservoirs totally alter the preexisting land use of their footprints. Although, they usually deliver benefits above and beyond electricity. Upstream natural gas footprints are minuscule and generally don’t alter the preexisting land use. But, they deliver no added benefits.
That’s rather prejudiced, Dave.
Very few dams are built primarily as “generating sources”. Most of those dams are built for water containment and control; primary, secondary and tertiary.
The electricity generation is installed because it is absurd to waste all of that work energy inherent in falling water.
Let us know when collected and concentrated wind or solar can safely provide similar energy efficiencies with all of the land involved providing multiple layers of benefit; e.g. drinking water, water control, irrigation, flood control, transportation, regional environment moderation, aquaculture, wildfowl habitat and nesting, boating, waterskiing, fishing, swimming, hiking, etc etc.
It’s just math.
The quality of the footprint is irrelevant to the size of it.
“Quality of the footprint is irrelevant”?
My statement stands, David. You do not present any relevance or logic in that response of yours.
When comparing energy generation land usage, land that is only used for one purpose, literally exclusive of other benefits to Earth, wildlife, mankind; especially for very low energy density, that is a pitiful waste of land.
The quality of the footprint is everything. Otherwise, it is mostly wasted space.
Again, hydro power is not a primary reason for building dams. It is lagniappe, as are many other benefits of reservoirs.
Each source of energy requires an average area of land per MW. Apart from solar, most of the land remains open to other uses.
Major hydroelectric plants are built into dams which were primarily designed for electricity generation.
Large wind farms are mostly sole use too, not multiuse.
Dams include power generation as a secondary feature.
Look up the history of TVA, Lake Mead and many other water projects. They were built for water control.
Many small reservoirs are built for water, not power. Water is intensely precious across America.
Controlling floods is extremely beneficial. Providing water for irrigation, populations is extremely beneficial.
Only when a consistent volume of water will fall from sufficient height to power generators are dams built with generating facilities.
Lagniappe! Not primary.
Dammed water, fossil fuels, nuclear density of land use is beneficial to far more than some company raking in subsidies from land turned desolate. Birds, bats, wildlife, humans are endangered within wind turbines’ operating areas; if the blades don’t kill outright, their low frequency vibration disturbs or damages biological systems.
Pristine beautiful recreational places, wind farms are not. Decaying cities have finer allure and greater benefits than unhealthy land wasting low density short lived subsidized electricity pits.
Texas is swarming with dams and reservoirs designed for freshwater supply. Most of these are unsuitable for hydroelectric power.
The Glen Canyon and Hoover dams can only generate electricity if the reservoir elevation is high enough. The higher the elevation, the bigger the footprint. This isn’t good or bad. It’s just volumetrics.
You have yet to make any valid points David.
You insist on defending an untenable opinion as your position. Just because you wrote an opinion, does not make it gospel or even correct.
Glen Canyon, just as Lake Mead were built for water retention, flood control and irrigation. They would have dammed the Grand Canyon as well, if citizens and government had allowed it.
It is not just volumetrics. As you notice with Texas’s potholes, height is required to produce serious electricity.
Using gravity and water volume to amass enough work potential to drive large generators.
Niagara Falls is one example of a generating facility built without intention to actually control the water; just to benefit from the water’s work potential.
Across America, water is life. Around water, life prospers. Hoover dam and Glen Canyon generating facilities were built long before there were sufficient people, businesses or industries around to benefit from the electricity.
California, however was buying, controlling or politically driving crusades to lock in water supplies for California; without care for who they took the water from.
Water from the Colorado River, Glen Canyon, snow fields in the Rockies, Great Lakes, icebergs, etc.; it doesn’t matter just so long as California gains the water they desire.
Where I live, there are three reservoirs within ten miles.
None generate electricity. Their sole purpose is water supply.
Could a local reservoir generate electricity? No.
These are all county reservoirs or jointly controlled county and town reservoirs. In order to amass a sufficient column of water to generate electricity on par or competition with nuclear, gas or coal facilities; they would have to flood the entire county and most of the neighboring county on the other side of a river.
Most modern dams, over the last 80 years or so, are built primarily, secondly and tertiary for water. Electricity is lagniappe and very useful, but low on the list and only viable where sufficient water column can generate electricity on par with nuclear, LNG and coal.
There is zero equivalence to the vast areas land wasted under alleged renewables. Alleged wind and solar renewables consume land and subsidies.
It is just volumetrics. Most Texas dams are unsuitable for hydroelectric power plants because they trap shallow, broad volumes of water. The reservoirs are designed for water supply and are great for bass fishing.
Power plants were built into the Glen Canyon and Hoover dams because they were designed for electricity generation and fresh water supply.
While TVA reservoirs serve multiple purposes, the primary purpose of the TVA was electrification of the rural southeast…
https://www.tva.gov/About-TVA
It’s not a matter of equivalance of hydroelectric and other renewables. Hydroelectric has the largest land footprint because it requires a man-made reservoir.
This isn’t good or bad. It’s just volumetric math. A recent paper insisted that all of our electricity could be generated by wind, solar and hydroelectricity. If 1/3 of our electricity was hydroelectric, the land footprint would be almost as big as Texas.
As Texas-sized hydroelectric footprint might be a good thing. A Georgia-sized wind farm might not be bad. A Washington-sized solar farm would be an economic and environmental catastrophe.
David, you are inventing fiction and cherry picking isolated descriptions.
The history and rationale for establishing the TVA and other large dams are well documented.
Dam electricity generation is lagniappe to the primary rationale, authorization and assignment to control floods.
Our modern era of dams are all about water!
Electricity generation is lagniappe.
Especially when the long term result of hydro electrical generation is cheap electricity.
Unfortunately, working for the Federal government frequently introduces workers to alleged leaders who set wild goals for major projects.
Eerily recorded in the Dilbert comic strip; clueless bosses love to inflate goals so they can puff up their achievements to their superiors.
This over assignment often was described by workers as receiving assignments to “create life”, “eliminate hunger”, “banish poverty”, “cure cancer”, etc.
Keeping assigned goals within achievable limits of budget and time, while simultaneously preventing “mission creep” required constant attention and effort.
That TVA had so many extra goals tacked onto their flood control mission is not surprising.
That TVA succeeded achieving their goals is surprising.
TVA’s success established the model for most major dam projects since.
N.B. each dam’s primary mission is to control water, control flooding, provide irrigation, provide water to people, businesses and industry.
Hydroelectric power generation is lagniappe.
Pretending that reservoir footprints are solely for generating electricity is foolish.
Dams, reservoir footprints, reservoir shorelines, etc. support a dam’s primary assignment while benefiting people, wildlife and plants.
The footprint of hydro-electric power are those components added to a dam for power generation, e.g. generators, sluices and gates.
Cheap hydro-electric power is lagniappe to water control.
Also there may be one storage reservoir but multiple generating facilities downstream reusing the water flow. Then there are run of river generation with no storage. These would reduce the total area.
nc, I agree. Such a combined metric conglomerates far too may different hydroelectric concepts and assumes they are all Hoover Dam.
For many large scale hydroelectric facilities the primary determining factor is how high the dam needs to be to generate the pressure head. The size of the subsequently created upstream reservoir is a result of the dam height and upstream topography, not so much on how much water will be needed to maintain flow rates.
This is a misleading metric which biases against hydroelectric generation if land use alone is the determining factor.
If you consider the purpose of this posting is to figure out how much land it would take to replace coal generation with other sources, it is probably a reasonable method. Sure there are lots of different types of hydro facilities with differing amounts of acres per megawatt, but in this case we don’t care if the metric does not fit well for all of them. We only care about the average, because if we built enough new hydro plants to replace all the coal plants, it would all average out anyway. So far ballpark figures, this is fine.
Paul,
It is really academic anyway. The best hydroelectric sites were built up first. I think I remember reading that something like 95% of all the suitable sites have been developed. Many of the remaining potential sites have issues of being in national parks/monuments or defined wilderness areas. So, for all practical purposes, we have all the hydroelectric capacity we are going to have. There is little chance for hydroelectric to make much in the way of inroads on replacing other sources.
I think the point is dams tend to be triple use. They 1: generate power 2: provide flood control 3: provide water for a thirsty populous. Hoover dam does all three of these, so you have to do an apportionment of how much of that land use should be dedicated to each cause.
Admittedly this gets tricky and folks use dubious math to prove their case with apportionment. Eg, when corn is turned to ethanol, they apportion some of the energy to the remaining low energy byproduct because it can be used as cattle feed – not that it actually is – since it has to be delivered most and would rot if not fed very quickly. Some more goes to the stover (corn stalks) which are used for animal feed, and occasionally as cellulose stock.
If wind is placed throughout the Texas panhandle and cattle grazing and farming continues uninterrupted then who gives a flip?
It already is. The point is that in order to replace coal with wind, you would need an area the size of Georgia.
Agreed, but the 80 acres/MW is the easement and spacing. When a 3 MW turbine goes up the builder does not fence out 240 acres. The physical footprint is a lot smaller than that. Most of the land is dual use, and in places like Iowa, Oklahoma, and Texas the original use is unimpeded. That may not be the case for ski resort towns in Vermont, but it is a little disingenuous to insinuate that an area the size of Georgia must be solely dedicated to wind. I understand that the article does not claim it, but the map implies it.
It doesn’t matter if the land would be multi-use. It would still require an area slightly larger than the State of Georgia to replace coal with wind.
It’s not a matter of whether or not it’s a good idea or a bad idea. It’s simply the scale of the land use requirement for each power source.
Most lakes created by hydro-electric dams are dual use as well. So what?
David, the renewable technology risk includes new emerging technology that outdates current renewable investments.
The Strata study and this post are just about the land use footprint for various energy sources. It doesn’t address costs or technology risks.
“I understand that the article does not claim it, but the map implies it.”
The article specifically uses the total land area rather than the direct land area for wind, thus assumes no dual use for the land.
To clarify, if the land can be used as it was before with the presence of turbines, you have not “used” any land. Dual use does matter. The authors recognise this when they discount the use of rooftop solar as not requiring any land. It is a pointless argument to say that generating the country’s power would require X square miles of land if those X square miles were all on roofs.
Puttng it another way, the total land area of the country is fixed. We simply have to divide it up as to how we use that area. If generating wind requires an area of X million square miles, but all those square miles can still be used as they were before (by grazing sheep or growing crops), then this land use has not been lost for those other purposes. The total land area needed is therefore pretty much irrelevant. The only relevant factor is the amount of productive land that can no longer be used for another purpose. This is a genuine cost and is the reason why biofuels should not be primary crops. The genuine cost in that case is the food that could have been grown. Bioethanol in the US was always more about fuel security than about environment, in my opinion, as backed up by Bush.
“The point is that in order to replace coal with wind, you would need an area the size of Georgia.”
There is an area the size of Georgia. It is Georgia. If we can ultilise this area without preventing the existing use of the area the size of Georgia then very clearly there is no problem, since we have a great many areas the size of Georgia available. Georgia being one of them.
The only problem is what we cannot use for other purposes, so the total area required is a complete red herring.
It’s a bit disingenuous to imply that the authors neglected the issue when it comes to wind when they actually give their reasoning. Rooftop solar is different because the land is already committed to a use before the panels are added. In the case of wind that use is restricted only after the addition of the turbines.
I did not imply they had neglected the issue. I said they chose a worst case senario.
Where will the installations go to power San Francisco? Washington D.C., Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York City, etc.?
You probably start running out about there. However, increased wind farms in Texas, Oklahoma, Iowa, Nebraska etc. along with a few strategic HVDC lines connecting Dallas to Memphis, Boise to Chicago and so on could displace a lot of the power currently being produced in the south east and near Chicago. I doubt lines connecting Iowa to New York could be profitable, but it is not difficult to imagine wind penetration increasing nationally from 6% to 15%. The natural answer for DC and NYC would be ocean. However, I doubt even 15 MW turbines could get down to $0.05/kWh so I don’t know whether that will ever be feasible. However, improved geothermal heating units could likely displace a lot of current energy use in the NE.
Even with HVDC, maximum practical distance is about 500 miles.
To MarkW below:
“Even with HVDC, maximum practical distance is about 500 miles”
Somebody should make sure Brazil knows that so they don’t build the 2,385 km long Rio Madeira HVDC line capable of carrying 7.1 GW. Oh shoot, they finished it in 2013.
Also, according to Wikipedia there are 14 individual projects over 1,000 km each with a total capacity of 68.6 GW. Another 3 with a total capacity of 22GW are under construction. Let’s note that these aren’t Germany Energywiende projects, they are coal and hydro powered lines in China and India. If China and India can push around 90GW of electricity on lines 1,000 km or longer we can build a line connecting Wyoming to California, Texas to Memphis, Iowa to Chicago, etc. To put it in perspective the Rio Madeira line could connect Dallas to New York. If Dallas could buy wind from West Texas farms at $0.04 /kWh (current wholesale is below that, but let’s kick it up to that level for fun) and sell it into NYC at their current retail rates of ~$0.2/kWh over a 10 GW line and you assume a 40% capacity factor (capacity factor of new wind turbines) they would make $5.6B/y on the spread. The reality is that the capacity factor of the line would be higher (solar farms would pop up near wind turbines to sell their power into NYC), and the state would likely charge high interconnect fees, so it is difficult to know what the exact return would be. However, the economics could very well work out.
How favorable are the envirowhackos going to look at the underground pipelines needed for transmission of this HVDC throughout the US along with the necessary facilities about every four to five hundred miles for distribution node points?
“Even with HVDC, maximum practical distance is about 500 miles.”
As pointed out by chadb, MarkW has again made an unsubstantiated and completely wrong assertion. I recommend checking before posting.
I don’t, but I don’t go there. The folks in the area who are annoyed by the noise and wildlife destruction might have a different opinion, and it is their territory.
…not to mention the taxpayers who’re forced to subsidize this crap.
Thanks, Walter. There’s far more than audible noise to be concerned about with industrial scale wind turbines. Why not include this form of ‘trespassing’
http://ulsterherald.com/2017/07/30/expert-warns-adverse-health-effects-turbines/
as part of the ‘footprint’?
The migratory birds that are being killed by the windmills give a flip.
Yes, chadb, the owner can and often does fence out the entire wind plant. The two large wind plants going in in Wyoming take 300,000 acres total area. Open space is destroyed, as is the history of the area and recreational opportunities (people don’t generally camp under wind turbines so far as I know). They are blight on the land—like sticking hundreds of Washington monuments out on the prairie connected with dirt roads. Of course, if you hate open space, wildlife, and nature, they’re perfect.
I have been to Wyoming. I would rather camp in a truck stop with our motor home than Wyoming open spaces.
There are an infinite number of free camp sites where you have all the open space you want.
We are not running out of open space.
Retired Kit P: A person from Japan will say we have too much open space because we have a backyard. So we all should live in 600 square foot houses packed in like sardines because the Japanese live that way. We can cram thousands more into cities that way.
Of course, since you don’t apparently like open spaces and wildlife and nature, you’d love wind turbines. Please have them moved to YOUR backyard, not mine, and we’ll both be happy.
(What is it about people that they fear being out alone in nature?)
The 550 mw Topaz solar farm is slated to be surrendered to the Corrizo Plain enviro groups when the panels are removed at the end of the PPA contract term. That was a stipulation in getting the groups to allow it in California. It was dry land before and will continue to be so after.
In spite of the tears of urban folk, nothing is really lost from Hydro. Part of a river is converted into a lake, both of water. Natural lakes can be made from cataclasmic volcanic explosions, or having a mile of ice form and scour the watercourse deeply before leaving a tailings dam at one end, of great size, or from immense landslips combined with deep erosion. And folk will say ‘how lovely’,with justification. None of the above last forever, however. So, get real.
It’s not a matter of whether or not any land is lost. The point is the area required per MW of electricity generation.
Hydroelectric power is great. Man made lakes are great. Texas probably has more dams and man made lakes than any other 5 States combined. Much of our freshwater supply comes from such lakes.
However, it would still take an area equivalent to 72% of the State of Texas to build enough hydroelectric capacity to replace 274 GW of coal-fired capacity.
As stated above (by others), neither storage area or volume is not the controlling factor in hydro design. The storage could be much less if a penstock were to be run horizontally, relatively flat,along the natural grade contour, and then drop into generation.
The 4 mile long penstock method would save “area”, but the reservoirs that are created along with dams are usually considered a benefit. If hydro systems were designed to minimize storage footprint, the storage footprint could be 20% (estimate based on experience and pulled from dark place) of the typical multi-use generation facilities.
Dams usually are designed to impound the maximum volume of water with the minimum surface area. When you’re buying and/or condemning land to be flooded, you’re paying for acres not acre*feet.
So, they are generally designed to minimize the footprint… yet they still have big footprints.
This is not about whether the footprint is bad or good. It’s just about the size of the footprint.
A hydroelectric plant’s footprint ia huge; but it is usually a value-added footprint due to recreational and water supply functions of the reservoir. Natural gas’ upstream footprint generally doesn’t interfere with the preexisting function of the land. The same goes for wind. None of this matters to the size of the footprint.
Ok let’s get real.
Lake Powell has materially changed the Grand Canyon.
Your flawed bucolic view is that since everything is eventually going to change anyway, why worry about sooner the later?
Logic like that is difficult to argue with because it’e mind-numbing stupid.
Natural dams on the Colorado had greater impact that anything done by man. They lasted longer than any manmade structure will last; they took longer to fill with water (20 years of obstructed flow before over topping); and more sediment released at failure than anything imaginable.)
The previous dams on the Colorado system materially changed the river system as well.
Perspective matters; I don’t live there so I don’t care.
https://wwwpaztcn.wr.usgs.gov/webb_pdf/Fenton-ea-2005-QR.pdf
The place we call ‘grand’ canyon is an isolated waste land with little value. It is not particularly unique or ‘grand’ when it comes to western river systems.
I have been there and it is beautiful. Other than its destination as a national park, the river could be used for power.
Anyone living in the area that is now underwater would bet to differ with the idea that nothing is lost, especially the farmers.
The St. Francis Dam had many losers. Those that lost their land to the new reservoir, and those that lost their lives and homes when the dam failed.
With both wind and solar, the best locations are already being used.
If we were to start ramping up production, less optimal sites will have to be selected.
This will cause the acres/MW number for them to get even worse.
Incorrect. Wind sites are already being repowered. The best sites were taken 20 years ago and now the 300kW turbines that were there are being replaced with 3MW turbines. Also, as the turbines get larger there are more areas that can be built without taking a capacity penalty.
MarkW – “the best locations are already being used” chadb – “Incorrect … The best sites were taken 20 years ago ”
???
Thomas – since the 300kw turbines are being replaced with 3MW turbines, the sites are only 10% “used”.
seaice1 – [ Thomas – since the 300kw turbines are being replaced with 3MW turbines, the sites are only 10% “used”. ]
You’re admitting that “the best locations are already being used”, so that is not incorrect. Your argument now is that, while those locations are in fact in use, the turbines there currently are so inefficient that replacing them with more modern turbines might produce more power.
The response is really aimed at this
“With both wind and solar, the best locations are already being used.
If we were to start ramping up production, less optimal sites will have to be selected.”
That is wrong because we can ramp up production by up-grading the already used land.
One of the contributors to Ted Talks did a back of the envelope calculation to see how much land area in the U K would be required to grow enough biomass to supply Britain’s energy needs. He ran out of country!
Trebla – I agree entirely. Simple back of the envelope calculations can easily show that land-based biomass cannot replace fossil fuels. Utilising waste biomass can make a contribution.
We lost the Hetch Hetchy Valley, the nearby twin of Yosemite, to a reservoir for San Francisco, and the tears were shed buy environmentalists, not the urban folk of San Francisco. http://www.hetchhetchy.org/history_of_the_valley
Who is we and what is lost?
Yosemite is lost to tourist hordes.
The only power source, sustainable or otherwise, that makes sense is nuclear. First we do liquid fluoride thorium reactors (LFTR), then fusion. LFTR is compact, scalable, dispatchable, non-proliferating, consumes nuclear waste and produces little, and is fail-safe. Its only problem is our environment of abiding ignorance, abetted by scaremongering media and politicians.
I agree that nuclear should be an important and incresing part of our energy mix. Nuclear offers us a reasonable and safe way to a lower carbon future. The anti-nuclear lobby is just as anti-science as the CO2 denying lobby.
Median capacity factor for onshore wind in the US,is,0.31, not 0.39. See guest post True Costmof Wind at Climate Etc. for details and sources.
0.39 is the EIA estimated average for new onshore systems entering service in 2022.
Probably nothing better than Electricity will ever be discovered that would displace it as the most efficient source of power/energy. However it is produced, and how much land is required to host the various means of production of electricity will still require dedicated right of ways for power lines (Both AC and HVDC) The one thing we should do now is to make sure these Easements and Right of Ways are in place for the future so as the CAVE people (Citizens Against Virtually Everything) protesting civilization and development cannot stall future power line construction. I may have missed it, but I don’t know if this article made much mention of the power line foot print required to transmit electricity, and we will need much more power line capacity in the future. It will be required forever, unless of course, Tesla was onto something with his wireless electricity transmission. I guess never say never, but it hasn’t happened yet.
” I may have missed it, but I don’t know if this article made much mention of the power line foot print required to transmit electricity, ”
you can only have missed it if you did not read the report. Each source has a section titled “Transmission/Transportation Land Use”
It is difficult to miss.
The only reference to power line foot print is very vague… “For each source, it approximates the land used during resource production, by energy plants, for transport and transmission, and to store waste materials.” There would be a lot of overlap on the same power line, whether it be Transmission or Distribution. All electrical generation, wind, solar, coal and gas or nuclear uses the same power line infrastructure. I didn’t see any substantive break down for such. However, this opens another question where say, much more distribution lines are required to install solar, but at a very low capacity factor as compared to a NG or nuclear generator that goes straight out to Transmission lines. This is a fairly simplified article, but it does show that capacity factor, and power density for choice of source of electrons does make a difference to total foot print.
Probably because the Power Line footprint is the same regardless of the source of energy generation. The only additional Transmission facilities would depend on generation placement though any new generation would require additional intertie
Bryan,
That’s wrong. Because solar and wind are so diffuse, they require a lot more transmission lines. This is a significant factor that is often overlooked or just hand-waved away.
domestic solar doesn’t need any more power lines at all… reduces amount of power needed to be provided over grid.
Griff,
That might be the most ignorant thing you’ve ever said. But it’s hard to judge since you spout so much ignorance. So tell me, just how do you interconnect millions of PV panels spread across thousands of acres of land?
Bravo. Excellent article.
It could be valuable to measure the land use for 1MW production at some time now and then. It would give more information to also tell about the MWh produced in a year or in average over a year.
A 3MW windturbine can produce 3MW maximum, but might only produce 1MW in average over a year.
Normal power stations produce 80 to 90% of the rated capacity over a year, if they are not reduced because of other variable and unpredicted sources.
It is certain that wind, hydro and solar will need more land than fossil fuels. However, the numbers are disputable. for example, for wind they say
“Within the total land use requirements are direct impact areas. Permanently disturbed land amounts to less than one acre and only 3.5 acres are temporarily disturbed by construction and other activities.173 Wind turbines require vast tracts of land to operate, but the direct impact area is often comparable to other power sources. Despite smaller direct impact areas, this study will rely on the total land use requirements of 60 acres per megawatt due to the restrictions on development that the presence of wind turbines causes. ”
So despite saying that direct impact of wind could use similar areas of land to other sources, they have chosen to use total land use – assuming the land cannot be used for other purposes.
I am sure the real answer is somewhere inbetween, but this analysis has taken the worst possible case for wind.
For solar, the location of concentrated solar plants is likely to be desert, which has little other use.
Whilst this sort of analysis is useful it is very far from being the whole picture. This sort of analysis is very useful for showing that land grown biofuels can never replace fossil fules for transport for example. However, the type of land used is very important, and deserts and mountain lakes tend to be pretty low productivity before the energy source is installed.
The only use for land is for human beings to cover it coast to coast? No open spaces, everything covered with concrete steel and roads. Perhaps even use wilderness areas and national parks. After all, the turbines don’t really disturb anything. There are millions of acres of parks in windy areas. Why not?
See Scott Adam’s “Absurd absolute proof” that I have won this exchange.
It would only be an absurd assertion if 1700 turbines weren’t going in within 150 miles of my house. Also, I remind you that at one time a boy saying he was girl and winning high school track meet trophies in the girl’s division would have fallen under the Scott Adams “Absurd Absolute”. In the face of the denial of reality by much of society, I’m not sure Scott Adam’s idea is still valid.
“to cover it coast to coast? No open spaces, everything covered with concrete steel and roads” Absurd absolute
And precisely how much land was budgeted for backup of these intermittent sources?
No, it didn’t put forth the “worst possible case” for wind. I don’t know what that is, but I know it’s worse than one central wind park. The reason is that wind turbines actually can’t coexist with random people. They are big, very powerful, and therefore very dangerous machines. Wind farm host municipalities have, for years, been struggling to find the safe “standoff distance” for people. Various studies have been done, but the one I recall the best analyzed the actual incidence of hazards that could affect the public from the long history of wind farms. Dominating the standoff distance calculation was blade-throw, the shedding of one of the multi-ton, 200 foot long blades and flinging it a considerable distance. Analyzing the actual history revealed a probability of 1 blade throw per hundred windmills per year. The authors guessed that the phenomenon would, in the long run, average one blade through per thousand windmills per year. Based on that guess, they recommended a standoff distance that exceeded that required for efficient turbine operation. In other words, the boundary of a wind turbine farm would extend further than calculated by a “hectares per watt” estimate, and the increase in land use would grow with the number of wind farms.
“Strata receives at least some funding from those great Americans: The Koch Brothers. ”
Not just recieve some of their funding from the Koch’s – the ties are closer than that.
“Simmons was the “Charles G. Koch Professor of political economy” at Utah State from 2008 through 2013 and is the President and Director of Research for Strata. In addition to serving as the Koch Professor at Utah State, Simmons also runs the “Koch Scholars” Program, which receives an annual grant from the Charles Koch Foundation.”
Simmons is the Strata president.
Ths does not make their conclusions wrong, but perhaps sheds some light on the choice of using the worst case scenario for wind of total rather than direct impact areas.
They also used the worst case for coal, oil, and gas by including mining and transportation land uses. I wonder why you left that part out?
I did not leave that out, all these are included in each case. Look at the quote I provide – they chose to use total land use rther than direct impact. That is a “worst case” for wind. Show me where they chose to use a total area rather than direct impact for coal and we can discuss. The mining and transportation uses for coal use are all direct impacts.
For anyone that wants to slag off Mosh for his Engish degree “Landon earned a bachelor’s degree in communications…”
Landon is the lead author of this report.
In his graphic comparing power footprints with states, David Middleton has covered eastern Mass. with nuclear power plants. The area includes Boston, Cambridge, North Shore, South Shore, and MetroWest. A most astute choice! This is one of the most liberal areas of the country, and is heavily infested with moonbats.
Paving the whole region over with nukes would greatly enhance the quality of life in the rest of the state. Finally, a climate change program we can all get behind.
Technically, I was surrounding Connecticut, because it is the closest area to the coal, gas and nuclear footprints.
An interesting point is the use of land outide the USA in some calculations. Whilst this is one way to look at things, it also increases the amount of land avalable to the whole world.
So no more nonsense about using up multiple Earths, right?
Tsk Tsk, touche. However, I was pointing put that the argument generally is discussng land area in terms of the USA, whereas the article is not restricted to USA.
Does Musk realize that less than 1/2 of all family homes have a roof facing South?
Does Musk realize that of those roofs facing south half of them have a pitch of less than 9/12 – 37 degrees with the most common pitch being 6/12 or 26.6 degrees. Thus they panels will not be at optimum angle for solar efficiency.
Does Musk realize that there are only 125 million homes in the USA? [https://www.statista.com/statistics/183635/number-of-households-in-the-us/]
Does Musk realize that the average home is only 1660 sq ft providing a roof of about 2000 sq feet, and only one half of the roof of a home facing south is usable, i.e. 100 sq feet? [https://www.fatherly.com/love-and-money/family-finance/average-size-houses-us/]
Is Musk aware of this map? http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/1961-1990/redbook/atlas/serve.cgii
Note that is for a plate tilted at an angle of 15 degrees greater than the latitude, about 50 degrees. do you want that on your roof.
Is Musk aware that when directly on the roof that all you get is this map? http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/1961-1990/redbook/atlas/serve.cgi
Musk realizes people will send him $1,000 to get on waiting lists because he’s a futurist like Tony Stark… /Sarc
Musk realizes that he can get people to buy his product by hyping the good points and not mentioning the bad. Just like every other company selling a product. Many of which, gasp, also take advantage of government subsidies. So why is Elon Musk always singled out?
Perhaps because he is the epitome of the modern progressive—using everyone else’s money to run his businesses. Tesla went something close to 13 years without making a profit. I read once that Musk said profit was not important, the mission was. Only someone not using his own money would say that.
Some apparently interesting work in this study is made absolutely misleading if not worthless by assignment of transmission acreage on a prorata basis. For nuclear, transmission represents 80% of total landuse of 12 acres/ MWe. Compare this with landuse for nuclear plants such as Chinshan in Taiwan and Hanbit in Korea which come in at 0.04 acres / MWe. When land is scarce, the production facilities themselves take up 300 times less land than the assigned value from the ‘study’.
Robust transmission networks will be required in any industrial society, and no, you can’t power steel mills from distributed rooftop solar. Further, nuclear due to large unit size and high capacity factor will use a much smaller share of transission acreage than other intermittent and distributed sources. This is clearly evident in FERC publications related to high penetration for wind.
For meaningfull comparisons, production facility acreage should be shown separately from transmission. Otherwise, comparisons are misleading.
The effort by the Strata team was to estimate the full cycle land use per MW. Transmission lines are part of the full cycle.