The Lure of Free Energy

Guest essay by John Popovich

In the 1950s we were assured by the best scientific minds and the U.S. President that nuclear electricity would be of such low cost that it would not make sense to meter it. The Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty granted every country the right to enrich and the nuclear haves promised the nuclear havenots that they would help them develop nuclear electricity to increase their economic well being. It may not be clear what went wrong but it is still very difficult to determine the economics of nuclear electricity and this is in part because the fuel is provided by governments and the price may not be indicative of its cost and because of the hazard and closure costs.

The U.S. government tried to get private industry to process nuclear fuel but had a difficult time finding takers. Union Carbide made an offer that required government guarantees and big upfront cash. Maybe Union Carbide knew something about nuclear fuel processing cost since they were operating a government nuclear fuel processing plant in Tennessee which happened to be the biggest electricity user in the U.S. Other concerns about nuclear electricity cost include the fact that much of the nuclear fuel available today is a result of a scaling back in nuclear weapons by the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. and of course the processing waste and the plant closure cost.

Bill Gates and other smart people are funding research on backyard nuclear power plants. Backyard nukes sound interesting and have a long history. In the late 1940s and early 1950s nuclear power was seen to be an attractive source even at very small scale, including for automobiles and aircraft (NB36, XB70). The world’s most esteemed nuclear physicists pronounced the practicability of nuclear reactors for these purposes, and the U.S. government gave encouragement and big dollars to these efforts. Oil companies were assured this was going to happen and were eager to participate. General Atomics was Gulf and Shell spending big on “Atoms for Peace” and hiring the best scientific minds to insure success.

After the small scale nuke bubble collapsed, nuclear industrial parks became all the rage and it was deemed that big electric users such as aluminum and fertilizer makers would colocate with nuclear power plants and this would result in great cost reductions which would improve our economic well being. It’s not clear what happened.

The Rasmussen report was used to insure us that a Three Mile Island type incident would only happen every 500,000 reactor years. Then there was Chernobyl and Fukushima.

Nuclear power plants use heat from fission to produce steam to operate turbogenerators for electricity production. The 4MeV neutrons produced by fission are rough on materials and greatly increase the plant cost relative to other heat sources. Imagine dealing with the 14Mev neutrons from fusion.

Solar electricity from photovoltaics is said to be free once you pay for the system but the overall cost is greater than the grid supplied cost of fossil fuel generated electricity and this means that to get an equivalent usable amount of electrical energy from photovoltaics more fossil fuel energy is expended in the manufacture, installation, operation, and maintenance and as a consequence more pollutants are generated and our standard of living is reduced.

Photovoltaics are produced with low cost Asian labor and coal fired electricity and installed on the homes of the wealthy in the West, where the wealthy buy the politicians (the poor can’t afford to) who force the utilities to purchase the electricity from the photovoltaic arrays at high rates and pass the costs on to taxpayers and ratepayers, who are the victims of this scheme. It’s a Rolex on the roof with the blessing of sanctimony.

Germany is of course the most egregious offender in that the amount of annual solar radiation in Germany is so low, it really is “Put this where the sun don’t shine” .

Germany tries to create a pretty picture of their energy policy and has largely succeeded in fooling the public and pleasing the Greens. German electric costs have soared and are now more than twice U.S. electric cost and rising fast. The only help is that they are burning more coal. The ruler of Germany may have to please the Greens, buts it’s a fool’s play and will result in great economic harm.

Intermittent/inconsistent energy sources such as solar and wind do not allow a reduction in the number or size of power plants and in fact there is a requirement for rapid response power plants which are much costlier and much less efficient and because they are often idled they have longer payback periods. Solar and wind electric systems also produce shock loads on utility grids which are costly to accommodate. No one wants to be without electricity when the sun is blocked by a cloud.

If photovoltaic electricity were less costly than grid supplied electricity, photovoltaics would be used to make photovoltaics.

Much is forgotten and must be repeated. In the 1970s there was a Solarex Solar Breeder project and it got big government funding and a large number of adherents. Politicians loved the term “Solar Breeder” and were clueless about the economics.

In the 1970s there was a large power tower project in Barstow California called “Solar One”, and after several years it was revealed that the value of the electricity produced was less than the cost of cleaning the mirrors. How could smart people have deemed this a good way to generate electricity? In addition to sand accumulation, the windblown sand caused scratching of the mirrors glass surfaces and necessitated periodic replacement.

Siemens promoted photovoltaics in the late 19th century when they were 1% efficient and steam power plants were 3% efficient. Today photovoltaics are 20% efficient and combined cycle power plants are 60% efficient. Since the grid was much less prevalent in the late 19th century, photovoltaics might have represented a better investment in many areas.

Smart people in government agencies in the 1970s and 1980s funded solar water heaters that cost more in electricity to run the pumps and controls than the potential savings in water heating costs and these people never seemed to have the time or interest to study the situation. The initial cost of these solar water heating systems could be more than 100 times the annual “potential” savings. In Southern California the average home spent ~$80.00/year on natural gas for water heating and the solar water heating systems might save half of this or ~$40.00/year. The government rebate for solar could be $5500.00 for the maximum allowed system cost ($11,000.00) and of course smart people learned to get the maximum rebate on all systems. The active systems required costly maintenance and rarely operated more than a few years.

Smart people in the U.S. government decided to fund corn to ethanol with a cost to the economy of hundreds of billions of dollars. U.S. corn and cellulose to ethanol conversion plants consume large amounts of low cost natural gas and coal fired electricity to produce a fuel for which the federal government generates a market thru mandates.

If corn to ethanol made sense, ethanol would be used to fuel the process.

U.S. government energy experts knew when oil was $2/barrel and synfuels were $8/barrel that synfuels would make economic sense when oil cost $8/barrel and when oil got to $8/barrel they funded synfuels and were surprised that synfuels cost $32/barrel but they were never able to grasp the fact that it required 4 barrels of oil equivalent energy to manufacture a barrel of synfuels with 1 barrel of oil equivalent energy. The significance of this still cannot be grasped. It may be that the current energy secretary can grasp the situation but the purchase of corn state votes is deemed of greater importance. Nothing has to be real; it only has to be sold.

There is a studied unwillingness to see cost as the important metric-money is just a trading unit of energy.

If photovoltaic electricity was less costly than grid supplied electricity, photovoltaics would be used to make photovoltaics.

 

If corn to ethanol made sense, ethanol would be used to fuel the process.

 

If cellulose to ethanol made sense, cellulose would be used to fuel the process.

When you try to close the loop things become more obvious. Closing the loop is what might in the vernacular be called a “bullshit detector”. These schemes are adult analogs of the childhood idea of the motor powering the generator powering the motor in that they result in additional energy consumption rather that additional energy production, the difference is that they occur at great economic cost to society. These schemes often exploit price disparities in fuels and require huge subsidies and a studied ignorance to prevail.

It’s somehow very difficult to grasp the fact that a dollar is just a trading unit of energy and productivity is simply a measure of the ratio of human energy expended to useful energy returned.

I believe solar energy can and will be used to provide food, fuel, heat, and fresh water at costs much lower than present solutions, but I believe that this will primarily be accomplished by exploiting biological processes. Farmers have learned to use solar energy profitably; we can learn something from them.

Current photovoltaic systems are often the most economical choice when the cost to connect to the grid is high. Many applications have low power requirements and high grid connection cost. In these instances photovoltaic systems are competing on capital cost. To force taxpayers and ratepayers to support photovoltaic systems in grid connected locations is to waste money and energy. If taxpayer or ratepayer funds are to be used to support solar energy, they should be used where it is most effective and not as currently used. Governments could encourage the development of self-sufficient homes and businesses. We need to develop comprehensive solutions for grid independence. Storage is the “Hard Problem” and rulers are more apt to spend money where they can get votes.

Edison pictured a world with very localized power production where the reject heat from electric power production could be used and in fact Pearl Street, his first installation utilized what today we call combined heat and power (CHP). Independent residences could also benefit from the direct current (DC) provided by photovoltaics, rather than the alternating current (AC) supplied by the grid. The arguments for AC in Edison’s time were that it was easier to change the voltage to current ratio via inductors and long travel distances would be more economical at high voltage to current ratios (not a concern for grid independence or short travel distance), AC did not have to be polarized: now AC circuits have to be polarized, grounded and include ground fault circuit interrupters, and AC motors were more efficient: brushless DC motors now offer very high efficiency and much higher power density. Additional benefits of DC power production include: fundamentally reduced electrocution hazard and lower voltages can be used, many appliances now use DC and must convert grid supplied AC to DC where cost and efficiency of the convertors are significant issues, and there is also a wide range of 12 VDC products available due to its use in automobiles, motor homes, and boats.

It would be nice to think that there is careful study of the economics of energy conversion but it’s not clear where the evidence for that resides, instead there is ample evidence of the lack of careful study. An example that got worldwide attention and considerable funding was Google’s “Renewable Energy Cheaper Than Coal” Initiative (RE<C) and their focus on power towers. Maybe it was studiously forgotten that Solar One, the giant power tower at Barstow CA was found to cost more for mirror cleaning than the value of electricity delivered and yet Google promised to make electricity cheaper than coal in 5 years time and were a big funder in the Ivanpah power tower. Renewable Energy World picked the Ivanpah power tower as its “Project of the Year”. One has to wonder about the economic viability of the other candidates.

The diffuse nature of solar radiation requires that the cost per unit area for any system, including a 100% efficient system must be low.

 

Academics can be hired to measure all of the energy inputs and outputs and studiously miss the forest for the trees. Terms such as EROI are diversions to make less economic schemes seem more economic. It must be realized that cost is the measure of energy. If a solar energy system results in delivered electricity costs twice as much as a hydrocarbon energy system, it uses twice as much hydrocarbon energy to manufacture, install and operate and therefore is responsible for twice as much pollution. It’s a concept that hard to grasp by those whose income depends on pushing the idea that the expensive energy is cleaner rather than much dirtier.

Productivity is a measure of energy expended to useful energy returned. Money is just a means to effect this transaction. It’s easy to imagine animals hunting or tricking or stealing to get the most energetic foods while minimizing the energy expended. Biologists have documented this in studies of animal energetics e.g. “Bumblebee Economics” by Bernd Heinrich. The life of the bee and of the hive depend on it. It is more difficult to see ourselves in this light, and yet we can imagine that a farmer must get more energy from a crop than the energy invested in the crop and the salesman must consider how much energy he is willing to expend to gain a sale. It’s easy to see when we buy energy more directly at the gas station, it’s more difficult to see when the transaction is less direct but the same phenomena exist. The value of money and of goods and services are manipulated to gain as much energy as possible for the least expenditure of energy.

It seems that the right knows that “alternative energy” isn’t profitable and the left doesn’t realize that it has to be, otherwise more energy is required than returned.

Politicians everywhere have discovered that they can get votes by promising a green energy future. What’s important is votes and they are apt be out of office before the shit hits the fan.

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richardscourtney
April 14, 2017 11:52 am

John Popovich:

All energy is free: it was all created at the Big Bang and cannot be destroyed.

But collecting energy into concentrations sufficient to do useful work is expensive.

Fortunately, nature has done much collection for us and has stored the collected energy as fossil fuels and radioactive materials.

Everything else is economics.

Richard

Gamecock
Reply to  richardscourtney
April 15, 2017 7:25 am

And politics. We could build nuclear reactors for less than a billion dollars . . . if we had to. It is our decadence that allows us not to.

April 14, 2017 11:54 am

There’s more to the energy picture than electricity, unless you plan on electrifying the entire transportation sector.

troe
Reply to  Nicholas Schroeder
April 14, 2017 12:50 pm

more or less that is the big plan. Cant see it for a very long time unless we want to cut living standards to the bone. Literally the bone age.

1saveenergy
April 14, 2017 11:56 am

We shouldn’t be looking at “alternative energy”

We should be looking at “ APPROPRIATE energy”

& keep politicians out of it… (in fact keep politicians grubby fingers out of anything to do with infrastructure & security).

Reply to  1saveenergy
April 14, 2017 12:36 pm

Surveyors, military types, and engineers did (do) a decent job of providing direction for the country. Bankers screwed things up a little, so to fix things politicians step in and shit on everyone.

MarkW
Reply to  DonM
April 14, 2017 12:42 pm

Bankers, trying to follow the directions of the politicians, screwed things up a little.

Hivemind
Reply to  1saveenergy
April 14, 2017 9:20 pm

“We should be looking at “ APPROPRIATE energy””

Here we have a problem, because greens run the government in most western governments. If they don’t have government in their own right, they have the balance of power. In those few places they don’t have the balance of power, they force the language of the argument in ways that mean they win.

So, the problem with green thinking, is that they don’t think it’s a problem if the power goes out. Look at the change of government in South Australia when they had that state-wide power failure. Didn’t happen, because it suited the greens that actually control the state.

Major power failures will happen in Victoria without the power generation from Hazelwood when the get into summer with exactly the same lack of consequences for the government. It will also cause another state-wide power failure in SA, but what do the greens care about them?

whiten
April 14, 2017 12:02 pm

Very informing article….in many regards.
In my opinion is one that should be considered very seriously…

But said all this, in the prospect of me not misunderstanding a given particular point….I have to say…that regardless of pros and cons when comparing the AC to DC current….as far as I can tell…in production and making of energy DC can not compete at all with AC, regardless of any scenario or idea…

When pros for DC may somehow make a case for it, the simple natural truth as for the moment is that while DC very cost efficient in it’s usage due to transformation, the DC current as per production and making of energy is a very big handicap when compared to AC.

When considering that no else in Universe can create or destroy energy, the only way to transform energy in means of production and making, in electricity, the AC is the main workable and sufficient main method, while in the same time the DC method is not even any where close to it for even the slightest comparison.

To consider that DC can overtake the AC in the transforming-production-making method of energy, one has to consider the very transforming of reality, nature, and Universe, in its own basics and laws…….at least as far as the reality , knowledge and experience does allow up to the present state of our civilization and human knowledge….and the reality up to now.

But still contemplating and venturing in it, can make some very very reach and wealthy- healthy with no regards to any thing else involved…..

cheers

Bruce Cobb
Reply to  whiten
April 14, 2017 12:15 pm

Mmmm…That’s some tasty word salad right there. Could use some dressing though.

Brett Keane
Reply to  Bruce Cobb
April 16, 2017 7:36 am

Is whiten a bot, after all?

Jer0me
April 14, 2017 12:04 pm

I saw an article recently that claimed that the cost of solar power had now gone negative! I didn’t bother reading it, but obviously we can now relax, power is not only free, it provides cash too.

Green fantasies are truly fantastic!

MarkW
Reply to  Jer0me
April 14, 2017 12:43 pm

When you add together all of the subsidies, this could easily be true.

Jer0me
Reply to  MarkW
April 14, 2017 3:41 pm

I actually went and found it and read it. Apparently this has happened in Germany, California and South Australia: they produce too much renewable power when nobody wants it, so have to pay people to take it! Amazing stuff, renewable energy, none of it around when we need it, too so much about when we don’t, they have to pay you to take it away. Sounds like mangoes round our way 🙂

I swear I’m not making this up, google “negative cost of solar power”.

Kalifornia Kook
April 14, 2017 12:09 pm

Well done, Mr. Popovich! Covered a lot of ground about as concisely as possible. Should be [resented before the House Science Committee.

April 14, 2017 12:09 pm

Fuel for transportation – South Africa makes synfuel from coal – wasn’t mentioned. I think oil should be reserved for petrochemicals.

I like the idea of solar photovoltaic powered residential communities. Pricey to be sure, has it’s limitations, and YOU have to maintain it, but combined with cell phones, “we” get rid of all the ugly “telephone” poles and no more outages from electrical and wind storms unless it hits your joint.

Windmills are ugly and dumb. The Texas panhandle, never a beauty spot, is really ugly now.

I think there were some exaggerations about the capital costs of producing solar, wind and methanol systems.

Other than that, spot on.

MarkW
Reply to  Steve Case
April 14, 2017 12:44 pm

Even in the best locations, you can’t put enough PV’s on your roof to power your house.
You’d still need the power poles.
PS: How you gonna get cable to your house?

Michael darby
Reply to  MarkW
April 14, 2017 12:51 pm

How you gonna get cable to your house?
.
.
.
Dish Network https://www.dish.com/

MarkW
Reply to  MarkW
April 14, 2017 1:13 pm

But only when it isn’t raining or the wind blowing to hard.
For me, cable includes internet, including high upload speeds which I need when doing work at home.

Reply to  MarkW
April 14, 2017 1:21 pm

Directional underground drilling machines. Natural gas, water and cable comes underground. It’s being done lots of places, but not for high voltage transmission. Telephone poles should largely go the way of the dodo bird – at least for residential. Industry & commerce is still gonna need lots of juice, and windmills and roof top solar aren’t ever going to do the job.

MarkW
Reply to  MarkW
April 14, 2017 2:27 pm

At the depth these things run, it’s cheaper to just dig a trench and drop the pipes and conduits into it.

Bruce Cobb
Reply to  Steve Case
April 14, 2017 12:49 pm

Oil doesn’t need to be “reserved” for anything. We don’t need government dictating what oil is used for. That is what the free market is for. And sorry, but solar powered residential communities is nothing but a pipe dream, and an expensive one at that. People who like “green” energy have no conception about cost. They don’t seem to care. It is all part of their cognitive dissonance.

davidgmillsatty
Reply to  Bruce Cobb
April 14, 2017 5:08 pm

You need to go fight the oil wars then. Or send your kids.

MarkW
Reply to  Bruce Cobb
April 17, 2017 8:02 am

What oil wars?

Kalifornia Kook
April 14, 2017 12:10 pm

Should be *presented*, but of course, a lot of them would resent it.

MarkW
April 14, 2017 12:22 pm

It’s hard to build an economical power plant when you have to redesign two or three times before construction is completed.

J Mac
April 14, 2017 12:43 pm

An excellent treatise on energy economics.
Thank You, John!
J Mac

DMA
April 14, 2017 12:52 pm

In my very humble opinion I can’t see the currant renewables ever gaining much of a foothold and never would have without the CO2 hysteria. As the truth emerges from the propaganda and the non problem of anthropogenic Global warming is exposed, wind and solar will fall back to the niche markets they can compete in. The real energy revolution is in new technology and is not that far out. Brilliant Light power expects a prototype this year (http://brilliantlightpower.com/).. Lawrenceville Plasma Physics is making good gains on their Focus Fusion project (http://lppfusion.com/), and several fronts are showing promise in the LENR field. If any of these make it to the market the wind mills and solar farms will be in need of reclamation.

sarastro92
Reply to  DMA
April 14, 2017 4:50 pm

Correct about LPPFusion. Their reactor is an aneutronic process (no radioactive waste or components) and involves direct generation of electricity by induction transformers (ie no generators or turbines)… that reduces the projected wholesale costs of electricity to about .5 cents a kWH instead of the current US average of $.12.. This is a near term (5 year implementation project)

The company is completely transparent and publishes in peer reviewed journals… Currently LPPFusion is ranked between #1 and #5 in the world for meeting fusion breakeven… but competitors have all peaked while LPPFusion will be loading final components and the ultimate fuel, pB11 , starting this summer. The reactors are incredibly compact and are designed to generate 5 MW each. Funding has been tight because the founder Eric Lerner will only license on terms that ensure that the electric power from his reactor remains ultra-cheap. Reactors like this can displace virtually all fossil fuel applications for heat, electricity and propulsion.

The latest educational videos can be found at

April 14, 2017 1:09 pm

Note that if you subtract the cost of regulations, delays, courts, etcetera, etcetera, ad nauseum from nuclear or fossil fuel power plants – they are far cheaper to operate.

Add the same costs as nuclear or fossil fuel plants to wind, solar, biofuels – they are an even worse deal.

This is even without considering subsidies to the worthless sources, which actually push them into a net negative expense (aka, profit) from government action.

troe
April 14, 2017 1:10 pm

In my part of the country we have shuttered nuclear plants including fusion from the Howard Baker- never met an atom he didn’t like-era

This is the genius behind the 1990 Clean Air regulations that John Beale received a gold medal for. Not against nuclear but have seen promises that didn’t come true resulting in 30 years of bond payments for nothing. WUWT should establish “The Ring” allowing proponents of different energy sources to battle it out.

MarkW
Reply to  troe
April 17, 2017 8:03 am

Including fusion??????

Pretty good way to discredit yourself.

D8T
April 14, 2017 1:12 pm

Solar electricity from photovoltaics is said to be free once you pay for the system but the overall cost is greater than the grid supplied cost of fossil fuel generated electricity and this means that to get an equivalent usable amount of electrical energy from photovoltaics more fossil fuel energy is expended in the manufacture, installation, operation, and maintenance and as a consequence more pollutants are generated and our standard of living is reduced.

Is the above statement true?
I had thought solar had progressed to the point where the panels where energy positive.
I’m watching a thread on another forum about the same topic and would like to respond but not sure what the real story is.

MarkW
Reply to  D8T
April 14, 2017 2:30 pm

The making of the panels may or may not be energy positive. However you also have to account for everything else that is needed to build up a solar power facility. There’s also the cost of recycling the panels when they reach the end of their useful lives.

RPT
April 14, 2017 1:13 pm

Make me think about the solar heat exchanger I had on my roof in FL. In a good day it might increase the temperature in my pool by 2C, then if I forgot to turn the flow off for the night, the temperature would be down by 4C the day after.
And it reduced the life of the roof shingles by several years, cost me 15k to replace!

Got a heath pump now, but I guess I should feel bad about that, and who really needs a pool!

Mike Williams
April 14, 2017 1:33 pm

“…the fact that much of the nuclear fuel available today is a result of a scaling back in nuclear weapons by the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. …”

I call BS on this statement…the output of Canada’s and Australia’s uranium mines can’t be used for weapons (by law/edict) so the supply is entirely driven by the demand of the nuclear power industry. And fwiw Canada has lots of untapped reserves of Uranium.

MarkW
Reply to  Mike Williams
April 14, 2017 2:34 pm

Uranium that had already been mined assuming a certain level of demand, still exists, even if the demand suddenly drops.
I’ve also read that when nuclear weapons were decommissioned, the highly enriched cores were diluted down the the lower levels needed for power plants and made available to power plants.

Tsk Tsk
Reply to  Mike Williams
April 14, 2017 3:50 pm

Good call. It is BS.

Mike Williams
Reply to  Mike Williams
April 15, 2017 12:38 pm

A quick look at global Uranium production data shows his claim to be utter BS. It is now dominated by Kazakhstan who produces 50% more than Canada (#2) and Australia (#3) combined. Their production increase represents the entire global increase since 2004…it increased 6-fold long after the SALT/START treaties kicked in so it was not weapons driven.

troe
April 14, 2017 1:43 pm

Mike,

Why can’t the output of those mines be used for weapons? Is it technical or policy.

Mike Williams
Reply to  troe
April 15, 2017 12:11 pm

In Canada’s case, back in the 60’s Lester B Pearson (PM at the time) banned the sale for use in weapons. The US sourced its weapons from African uranium and later on a US mine (I believe they also experimented with extracting it from sea water).

troe
April 14, 2017 1:44 pm

my bad. Should have read more carefully. Doesn’t it still impact overall supply/price.

Mike Williams
Reply to  troe
April 15, 2017 12:20 pm

Price yes…but read his statement…he implies supply was driven by demand for weapons which isn’t true when major suppliers weren’t serving that market (for Canada that was 50 years of supplying solely the power, medical, etc. industries).

AZ1971
April 14, 2017 1:49 pm

Seems that greenies want to add in the “social cost” of carbon-based fuels to up the ante against renewable sources, since there’s no way to square the economic benefit of RE vs. fossil fuels. In other words, change the equation to win the game.

Chris Hanley
April 14, 2017 1:50 pm

Gore Gored (via Tim Blair):

troe
Reply to  Chris Hanley
April 14, 2017 2:31 pm

Good post. Al Gore is a colossal douche. I known him as a 6th District citizen since 1975. Take my word on it.

PaulH
April 14, 2017 1:57 pm

Magical solutions have always had appeal. A miracle weight-loss system, the cure for cancer, a perfect sleeping pill, free energy for your home, X-ray specs, etc. Heck if there were a simple solution to all my problems, I’m sure I’d be interested. But I’m old enough to be a crotchety skeptic, and I can smell a con job.

Leonard Lane
Reply to  PaulH
April 14, 2017 3:27 pm

PaulH. I know a sure fire way to make a small fortune. Take a large fortune to the casino. And, there is no magic about it. Governed by the laws of probability and the house always has an advantage via giving themselves the higher probabilities.

DBH
April 14, 2017 2:15 pm

Cost and Price, while similar, are completely different.
The Cost of energy production and the Price of energy produced, varies, by necessity by the means to produce it.
Here in NZ, we have the majority of power produced by hydro and therefore the ‘cost’ would have been high initially, and the impact upon the country, equally high. Some even felt that this so called clean energy, shouldn’t even be had by way of hydro storage and there was a (successful) protest to ‘ban the dam’.

Nuclear here in NZ, is un-touchable…and I have to accept that, but have been swayed to look again at this power source.
The Molten Salts style reactors as promoted by Kirk Sorenson, is at the top of the list.
Here is a source where the Cost to produce the system is high, but the Price of the energy once the reactor is built, is negligible…so the energy consumed should be cheap….very cheap.
The material used for fuel is/could be the by product ie, read..waste, of other industrial processes.
The same can NOT be said for the current fuel for nuclear reactor sourced energy.

Low/no fuel cost for a MSR energy source = cheap energy/power.

Sadly, the chances of NZ having ANY nuclear source of energy, is the same as the CAGW crowd rolling over and giving up their views about CO2.

Sigh!!!

Gary Pearse
April 14, 2017 2:28 pm

Fukushima and Chernobyl are the poorest, examples to choose. Nobody died from radiation in the first, and 85% of all people who died died at Chernobyl. Only one person died in the French nuke system, possibly from a forklift accident. The cost for nuclear is grandly inflated because of activist hysteria. 4kto 5k workers annually perished in China’s coal mines up until recently. Radiation at Hiroshima declined to natural background within a year of the bomb. There is tons more of this story out there.

Crispin in Waterloo but really in Potchefstroom
April 14, 2017 2:34 pm

“If photovoltaic electricity was less costly than grid supplied electricity, photovoltaics would be used to make photovoltaics.”

One line is missing here: If wind powered electricity was cheaper then grid electricity from hydro, nuclear and coal-fueled, the wind turbines would be made using power from wind turbines.

Obviously they are not. If they were, they would cost at least twice as much as now, probably 4 times as much, based on my own calculations.

Energy is literally money. Less taxes and profit, the price on a turbine is entirely energy in stored or delivered form. The fact that production becomes more efficient with time doesn’t abrogate this fundamental principle. Raise the price of energy and the price of everything rises.

MarkW
April 14, 2017 2:38 pm

How many times have people died in fossil fuel plants because somebody failed to do sufficient amounts of maintenance?
Accidents happen. The world is full of humans and few of them are perfect.
The over all safety record for nuclear is as good or better than all other forms of power.