From the talk not action department and TRINITY COLLEGE DUBLIN comes this laughable press release:
Policy makers and ecologists must develop a more constructive dialogue to save the planet
Dublin, Ireland, Tuesday July 19, 2016 – An international consensus demands human impacts on the environment “sustain”, “maintain”, “conserve”, “protect”, “safeguard”, and “secure” it, keeping it within “safe ecological limits”. But, a new Trinity College Dublin-led study that assembled an international team of environmental scientists shows that policy makers have little idea what these terms mean or how to connect them to a wealth of ecological data and ideas.
Progress on protecting our planet requires us to dispel this confusion, and the researchers have produced a framework to do just that.
Ian Donohue, assistant professor at Trinity, and leader of this study, said: “Human actions challenge nature in many ways. We lump these into a grab-bag of ideas we call ecological stability. We want nature to be stable in some sense of that word. But what do we know about stability from our theories and experiments? And how can that knowledge help policy makers? We offer some solutions to these important questions.”
In the paper published today in the journal Ecology Letters, Donohue and an international team of colleagues outline exactly what policy makers, ecological experimenters, and theoreticians all think about this term “stability.”
The answer is very different things — and there’s a real problem with this lack of agreement. Professor Donohue said: “We need to be talking about the same things, using the same language, so that what ecologists know can sensibly inform the choices of policy makers.”
“Consider this example” says Stuart Pimm, Doris Duke Chair of Conservation at Duke University, in the USA, and one of the paper’s co-authors. “There’s a lot of discussion about “tipping points” — the idea that there are boundaries beyond which, if we push nature it will collapse. There may be places where this happens, but while nature may work this way sometimes, there is no compelling argument that it must always.”
Why should this matter? Pimm responds: “if politicians think there are tipping points and the world hasn’t collapsed thus far, then it encourages policies that continue to degrade our world. If there isn’t a catastrophe so far, why worry? The more likely alternative is not a sudden change, but a progressive loss of fisheries, croplands, damage to all our natural worlds. A wrong view of nature can have disastrous consequences.”
So what can we do? Professor Donohue and his colleagues believe that the solution is to recognise that nature responds to human pressures in complex ways, even as policy makers often demand simple solutions. Acknowledging the need for better communication on the science-policy interface is essential.
Policy makers sometimes have designed crisp, clearly defined targets, such as several of those for the Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services — a body broadly based on the more familiar IPCC that deals with climate change. “That’s good. The issue is when they have not. Our work identifies those discrepancies,” argues Donohue. “And we suggest solutions.”
Unfortunately, most of the policies examined by Professor Donohue and his colleagues contain terms that are ambiguous, or have multiple definitions that mean different things to different people. The recently announced United Nations Sustainable Development Goals are no exception.
Professor Donohue added: “This ambiguity is a huge problem as it means that we cannot measure progress, or indeed a lack of progress, towards achieving policy goals. This paralyses policy. Ecologists, policymakers and practitioners urgently need to develop a shared language in order to be more effective in managing the world’s ecosystems — our life-support system.”
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Ever notice how the green alarmists talk more about the message and how to more effectively convey it to convince people and not so much the data or science?
And they also want to censor their critics.
Who is Doris Duke, and how did she get a whole University named after her ??
g
Doris Duke was a tobacco heiress and I’m pretty sure the university was named after one of her relatives/ancestors.
Daisy Duke’s mother.
And ‘paralyses’ is a plural noun. The verb and adjective forms are spelled with a ‘z.’
It’s a smart move when you don’t have data and science on your side.
I don’t know about smart RC, its the only card left in their hand. Always was their only card actually.
Adaptation of an old law school bromide: “When the Science is on your side, pound the Science. When the facts are on your side, pound the facts. When neither the Science nor the facts are on your side, pound the table!”
Magicians use it every day, it’s called misdirection
its called propaganda
We need a dialog on how to save us from policy makers and ecologists.
G
People that can’t control their emotions look to limit the freedoms of others, someone smarter than me, said something like that once.
That is by-design. It is not a flaw for the dishonest purveyors of climate pseudoscience and the Progs. For example, “climate change” is the ultimate ambiguous term. It can and does mean many different things to different groups. And it is used in a way that makes it meaningless… by-design in order to push an agenda.
The “eco-nerds” let the semantic genie out of the bottle a long time ago, let’s see them stuff it back in.
If anyone can find one phrase in “A Silent Spring” that has a concrete meaning I will buy them a double-scoop dark chocolate-cherry on a waffle cone from Moomers, (this offer applies only to the original store on Long Lake Road).
Politicians hate that kind of ambiguity.
Sadly, the folks with the simple clear answers are the ones most likely to be wrong.
In this case ‘probably right’ means 51 or 52 percent and probably wrong means 60 percent. ie. the charismatic expert might be right about 40 percent of the time.
The enviro-alarmists refuse to believe that.
“I never said half the things I said.”
Yogi Berra…maybe
They say “save the planet” like the phrase has any real meaning at all. 😉
I don’t believe my savings account is big enough to put the whole planet into it.
And what exactly would the strategy be when the sun expands and incinerates the 4 inner planets?
The sun doesn’t expand, that’s old pseudo science.
Mark:
I haven’t heard that before, and I can’t find anything contradicting the hypothesis that the sun will expand. Can you please share your information?
They say “save the planet” like the phrase has any real meaning at all. 😉
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10-4 Paul. George Carlin debunked that decades ago.
[warning: salty language]
..”world’s ecosystems — our life-support system.” I’d like to suggest Professor Donohue take some time out in the world’s ecosystem until her comprehends modern society and all that goes with it is our real life support system. He’ll work it once he contracts one of mother natures little cherubs .. like staph or some sort of flesh eating fungi.
You gotta remember–no one ever sat down in a highly-charged emotional state to blast big checks off to a dot-org because everything’s going GREAT! Desperation, hand-wringing, appeals to apocalypse are necessary to keep those funds coming. And there are so many MORE NGO’s nowadays.
As far as REAL environmental issues are concerned, how ’bout “First, do no harm?”
Grade A b*ll*cks
That’s really all I need to say.
You mean ‘bollocks’, surely?
But they are dependent on vague definitions for any credibility. Climate change is equated with AGW, and CAGW is presumed with no evidence. There is an old line about it not paying for a prophet to be too specific.
Donohue — “This ambiguity is a huge problem as it means that we cannot measure progress, or indeed a lack of progress, towards achieving policy goals.”
Not quite. That ambiguity means they don’t know what they’re talking about.
Ambiguity means never having to admit that you were wrong.
Or never have to say you’re sorry.
Exactly. Sums it up perfectly. Not only that, they can hide anything in there, they can tweak it any which way they want it to go. From claimed victories (“Look it’s working!”) to up-scaling threat value, they’ve got it all covered if they keep from nailing down any kind of clear meaning.
Vagueness is the key to ambiguity….
““This ambiguity is a huge problem as it means that we cannot measure progress, or indeed a lack of progress, towards achieving policy goals.”
I suspect it is designed this way so there can be no measuring stick or accountability with which to defund projects.
Multiple definitions and ambiguity are a feature, not a bug. This is politics, not science, after all. Deliberate obfuscation is a primary tool to push policies and agendas which would not stand a chance otherwise.
great minds think alike
Professor Donohue added: “This ambiguity is a huge problem as it means that we cannot measure progress, or indeed a lack of progress, towards achieving policy goals. This paralyses policy.
Perhaps that’s a good thing.
I prefer gridlock in Washington, it means no new laws are getting passed
The problem with gridlock is that too many wrongheaded laws are already passed. Changes or removal of these bad laws is as important as not passing new ones. Rather than gridlock, we need a clear clan-up of the legal and tax system, especially for businesses.
I agree that is, in general, a good thing. But when a dishonest man comes along, and the People bestow enormous power on him, and then that man also decides to bypass the traditional checks and balances of a constitutional separation of powers…. we have a serious problem.
The US President and his installed minions have been for 6+ years effectively rewriting the nation’s laws whole-cloth while bypassing Congress. The constitutional remedy (the Founders foresaw this possibility) is impeachment and removal. But they set a high bar of 2/3 super-majority in the US senate for removal. We now have 46 gutless, ethics-challenged US Senators (out of 100) who have collectively given Mr Obama an “immunity idol” from removal. Obama realizes this, and it allows him to act in a lawless manner, only now checked by the US Courts on domestic issues.
This should be fun….
They are going to clean up a science that would not exist without ambiguity…
…by trying to make it less ambiguous
A refreshing start would be for them to tell the truth for once.
Irish academics are paid very high salaries, which are commensurate with their disconnect from the real world. They have consistently prepared documentation of appalling poor quality to justify the roll out of renewable energy and other climate change related measures. In particular participating on the UN IPPC documentation. Of interest is the below, which was used to justify a 40% renewable electricity target, nearly all wind based, for the Irish generation system, which has already blighted many parts of our landscape and cause a 50% rise in electricity bills:
http://www.uwig.org/irish_all_island_grid_study/workstream_2a.pdf
It’s worth looking at for its appalling poor quality, not least as it projected a maximum installed cost of €1.3 million per MW, when actual costs are €2 million per MW. The same type of shoddy work by Irish academics is to be seen in the below, particularly chapters 7 and 8:
http://www.ipcc.ch/report/srren/
One can see this when one delves into the drafts in the link above and the various comments.
How deeply are Irish RC organizations involved in this Irish situation?
For example, the RC Trocaire organization’s involvement in the divestment movement and climate change?
University College Dublin Foundation
UCD O’Brien Centre for Science
Donors include:
Eddie O’Connor, Irish wind turbine mogul.
http://www.ucdfoundation.ie/search/?q=campaign%20for%20science
OilPrice, April 25, 2012
‘Oilprice.com’s 5 Most Important Figures in U.S. Clean Energy’
Steven Chu
Dan Reicher
Elon Musk
Eddie O’Connor, Ireland
Paul Woods, The Algae King
http://www.oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Renewable-Energy/Oilprice.coms-5-Most-Influential-Figures-in-U.S.-Clean-Energy.html
GWEC/Global Wind Energy Council (Brussels)
‘Mainstream CEO Eddie O’Connor appointed as GWEC Global Ambassador’
Also named World Energy Policy Leader by Scientific American 2013.
http://www.gwec.net/mainstream-ceo-eddie-oconnor-appointed-as-gwec-global-ambassador
Mainstream Renewable Power, Ireland has wind projects in the U.S. and Canada
energy [r]evolution / GWEC – EREC – Greenpeace
A Sustainable World Energy Overlook, 290 pages, 2012
P.18: Policy changes
8 demands by Greenpeace, GWEC and EREC
Including:
Cap-and-trade
Priority access to the grid for renewable power generators
Feed-in tariff
Canadian tar sands are mentioned in this document.
http://www.energyblueprint.info/fileadmin/media/documents/2012/EnergyRevolution2012.pdf
Slow download.
GWEC, May, 2014
‘GWEC Board election and new Executive Committee’
Executive Committee:
Included: Robert Hornung, CANWEA/Canadian Wind Energy Association President.
http://www.gwec.net/gwec-board-election-new-executive-committee
“Unfortunately, most of the policies examined by Professor Donohue and his colleagues contain terms that are ambiguous, or have multiple definitions that mean different things to different people. “
Well, I’m glad they cleared that up. I was beginning to think were using vagaries on purpose to push an indefensible agenda or something.
The low-density “green” energy converters are taking a progressive toll on flora, fauna, and the environment.
What pub was this written in?
@ResourceGuy – following on from Anthony’s lead on using data to inform debate, try this for size: “Irish teenagers drink less than most Europeans of same age”
I know the trope of the drunken feckless Irish is an immutable and ineluctable view held by many English and some Americans. Don’t know which you are. Please try to keep up with the times and the latest research.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/irish-teenagers-drink-less-than-most-europeans-of-same-age-1.2574012
Ps: anticipating the response by some that the work referred wasn’t written by teenagers I would respond: ‘you reap what you sow’
There are so many problems with this story. First, humans are part of nature not separate from it. That’s the fundamental flaw in environmentalism. Second, nature isn’t stable across most timescales (certainly on a human scale). The world is always changing and always will. So trying to achieve “stability” is futile at best. Third, there is no such thing as a climate tipping point – we wouldn’t be here if there was based on past climate.
“there is no such thing as a climate tipping point”
From my reading Dinsdale the opposite is entirely plausible.
It’s not just tipping points that are non-existent. It’s global warming that is strangely absent , although
somehow these greenies have the amazing ability to ignore as irrelevant data unless it shows warming, somewhere, to some extent, regardles of how inconsequential. One cannot expect sensible logic from such people. They are guided by emotions that force them to continue to believe the fiction of a paid-for
opposition.
<i… “There’s a lot of discussion about “tipping points” — the idea that there are boundaries beyond which, if we push nature it will collapse. There may be places where this happens, but while nature may work this way sometimes, there is no compelling argument that it must always.”
Why should this matter? Pimm responds: “if politicians think there are tipping points and the world hasn’t collapsed thus far, then it encourages policies that continue to degrade our world. If there isn’t a catastrophe so far, why worry?….
Hmm…as a policy maker, I would say:
“I would certainly worry if I thought I was running into a catastrophe. But first I would want to be fairly sure about it. And if your track record of predicting disasters is uniformly wrong, I suggest that you get your prediction ability up to the stage where there is a better than 50% chance that you are right before coming to me and asking me to do anything about it…”
I find it refreshing that Pimm would cast doubt on the “tipping point” concept, even if for a peculiar reason (politicians might not get excited). It’s likely he will get attacked for even suggesting such heresy.
Allow me to change a couple of words Dodgy:
“the idea that there are boundaries beyond which, if we push nature it will collapse” – Change collapse to flip to a different phase or state. No one is suggesting the climate will “collapse”.
“there is no compelling argument that it must always.” There are plenty of compelling reasons to suggest it may. Raising the average Arctic a couple of degrees could dramatically alter the albedo such that it could remain ice-free for several decades. That would clearly represent a tipping point. It could tip back of course but that may take an extended period in the new phase.
Anyone with serious interest in the subject of the Science/Policy interface should start by reading The Rightful Place of Science: Science on the Verge and other books from the The Consortium for Science, Policy, and Outcomes at Arizona State University.
Frequent readers here will recognize that Roger Pielke Jr.’s The Rightful Place of Science: Disasters & Climate Change is part of the same CSPO book series, it is available here at no or very low cost.
Methinks they kissed the Baloneystone before writing this.
http://oi65.tinypic.com/9gztl5.jpg
That is the Profits’ prophecy.
Not ecologists. Conservation is principled, traditional, and no longer chic. More like “green” industry lobbyists and scientific mystics.
Re “the talk not action department”.
“When all is said and done, a great deal more has been said than done.”
I wish I could remember who I’m quoting, but it’s spot on.
The transition from rhetoric to logic is nearly impossible as the though processes involved are essentially incompatible. The panic-inducing rhetoric of the past 30 or so years of climate activism was crafted to motivate people, especially uncritical thinkers such as politicians and publicists. Any programs to actually take effective steps towards a clearly defined objectives require thinking that is very analytical and critical.
For clarity and an excellent distillation of actual facts and real-world implications of various climate policies, I recommend “The Moral Case for Fossil Fuels” by Alex Epstein. It’s written for non-technical persons and an easy read..