Scientists claim wood fired pizza is bad, saying baking it is 'damaging to the urban environment'

From the ‘those are fighting words’ department and the UNIVERSITY OF SURREY. Just wait until they get a load of the “coal fired pizza” in Texas.

coal-fired-pizza

The pizza slice that comes at a price

Scientific report announces emerging risk caused by wood burning stoves in pizza restaurants and charcoal in steakhouses to the environment

A recent study has shown that emissions in major cities caused by restaurants such as pizzerias and steakhouses using wood burners can be damaging to the urban environment.

The findings published in the journalAtmospheric Environment points out the underlining pollution causes of the Latin American city of Sao Paulo in Brazil. This work is a collaborative effort by ten leading air pollution experts from seven universities, led by the University of Surrey’s Dr Prashant Kumar from the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, under the umbrella of University Global Partnership Network (UGPN).

The Latin American megacity of São Paulo is the only megacity worldwide that uses a much cleaner bio-fuel driven fleet. With about 10% of Brazil’s total population, Sao Paulo’s inhabitants fill their vehicles with a biofuel comprising of sugarcane ethanol, gasohol (75% gasoline and 25% ethanol) and soya diesel.

Dr Kumar said: “It became evident from our work that despite there not being the same high level of pollutants from vehicles in the city as other megacities, there had not been much consideration of some of the unaccounted sources of emissions. These include wood burning in thousands of pizza shops or domestic waste burning.”

Despite feijoada (a pork and bean stew) being the often hailed Brazil’s national dish, pizza is revered by the residents of Sao Paulo. The ‘pizza day’ is celebrated every July and the neighbourhood pizzeria is the Sunday dinner with the family venue for most of the city’s residents. People of all ages line up for hours outside pizzerias every Sunday evening and the city is home to around 8,000 pizza parlours that produce close to a million pizzas a day and can seat up to around 600 people a time. In addition to the 800 pizzas a day being made using old-fashioned wood burning stoves, a further 1,000 a day are produced for home delivery, with Sunday being the busiest day of the week.

Dr Kumar continued, “There are more than 7.5 hectares of Eucalyptus forest being burned every month by pizzerias and steakhouses. A total of over 307,000 tonnes of wood is burned each year in pizzerias. This is significant enough of a threat to be of real concern to the environment negating the positive effect on the environment that compulsory green biofuel policy has on vehicles.”

Co-author Prof Maria de Fatima from the University of Sao Paulo added, “Although the huge number of passenger vehicles and diesel trucks are the dominant contributor to particle emissions, at least we understand the impact that this is having on the environment and can factor in solutions. The important contributions to particle emissions gained from burning of wood and the seasonal burning of sugar cane plantations need to be accounted in future studies as they are also significant contributors as a pollutant.”

pizza-fumes
This is an illustration of some of the sources of the air pollutants. CREDIT University of Surrey

Additional co-author Prof Yang Zhang from the North Carolina State University explained, “Once in the air, the emitted pollutants can undergo complex physical and chemical processes to form harmful secondary pollutants such as ozone and secondary aerosol. While most studies in Brazil have focused on impacts of vehicle emissions on air quality and human health, the impacts of emissions from wood/coal burning and meat-cooking in pizzerias and restaurants are yet to be quantified”

In addition, another part of the problem is the impact of the neighbouring Amazon rainforest. Biomass burning from the south southern edge of the forest can be transported across the Atlantic coast to Brazil and had to be included in the qualitative assessments of the city air pollution.

Citing this recent work, Dr Kumar, continued: “We believe that the contents of this new direction article provide an unprecedented approach in examining the adverse impact of air pollution in such a unique megacity as São Paulo.”

Professor Vince Emery, Senior Vice-President of Global Strategy and Engagement, University of Surrey commented: “This is another excellent example of how global challenges such as air pollution in cities need global networks to identify the problems and ultimately create innovative solutions”.

Paul Smith, Associate Dean in the Faculty of Engineering and Physical Sciences, University of Surrey added “It is great to see that the seed funding invested by UGPN partners has facilitated internationally co-authored work in such an important research area”.

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June 17, 2016 9:54 pm

OMG, are you being serious? In the real world, these folks would be thought of as insane. This is vile and twisted thinking. Lock the lunatics up, toss the lot. Politically correct thinking is a legitimate mental illness disease.

ferdberple
Reply to  John
June 18, 2016 11:23 am

what about farting in elevators? why is that not a hanging offence? Instead we get a study about how to get the government to pay for pizza’s delivered to your door.

Ziiex Zeburz
Reply to  John
June 19, 2016 2:52 am

In Germany it is ” Verboten” to cook commercially with open fire !

AndyG55
Reply to  Ziiex Zeburz
June 19, 2016 3:17 am

Really? I thought the Germans liked decent food..
And the ONLY way to get the best out of most red meat is with an open fire.
They must really have WIMPED OUT to allow that to happen !!
Maybe a remnant from WWII?

Reply to  Ziiex Zeburz
June 19, 2016 8:36 am

Not surprising, given the current political climate of Germany.

Erdmon
Reply to  Ziiex Zeburz
June 21, 2016 2:03 am

Actually, the Germans don’t like decent food, only decent beer. Germans normally prefer boring food.

Eugene WR Gallun
June 17, 2016 9:55 pm

Sometimes I think the green loonies have a death wish. Fuking around with people’s pizza? — Eugene WR Gallun

Reality Observer
Reply to  Eugene WR Gallun
June 17, 2016 11:55 pm

Hey, I’m OK with a NG fired pizza oven. But they’re coming after my STEAK!
That gets me looking at the ammo inventory…

Reply to  Reality Observer
June 18, 2016 2:54 am

First they came for the Pizza, and I said nothing…

SMC
Reply to  Reality Observer
June 18, 2016 6:00 am

The surest way to alienate the young generations is to take away their pizza. They would live on it if they could. Maybe threats to the pizza supply is a good thing. As for the steak…they can take my steak when they take my gun. :))

Eugene WR Gallun
Reply to  Reality Observer
June 18, 2016 10:02 am

Bartheby — Had to pick myself up from the floor. Your the winner! Who can match your comment? — Eugene WR Gallun

Reply to  Reality Observer
June 18, 2016 8:09 pm

Beauty Bartleby!
Now waiting for someone to do the “they can pry my pizza from my the cold dead hands” number.
Why use eucalyptus wood for pizza anyway? In Canada we have a few gazillion square miles of boreal forest – we can supply pizza ovens for literally billions of years into the future.
Fear not, good people, your wood-fired pizza ovens are safe!
Thank God for Canada! I mean, like, y’know, totally!

ozspeaksup
Reply to  Eugene WR Gallun
June 18, 2016 2:45 am

indeed..I ran a pizza bar for a while
our power bill for the electric oven was humongous!
it ate just about all the profit from the pizzas.
and 7.5 acres a month of fast growing renewable Eucy wood to fire theirs, for so many ovens..
whatta bargain 😉

emsnews
Reply to  ozspeaksup
June 18, 2016 4:59 am

Eucalyptus trees are nasty when you burn them. Not at all like oak which i burn to heat my home in upstate NY during the winter.

Reply to  ozspeaksup
June 18, 2016 8:41 am

That was my first thought. How do you use Eucalyptus without the pizza tasting like a cough drop? I’d go oak, cherry, apple. Hickory or mesquite if smoking

Reply to  ozspeaksup
June 20, 2016 1:16 am

Burned Eucalyptus just tastes/smells charcoally in my experience but maybe my memory is faulty. People sometimes confuse the oil from leaves from the excellent burning wood: http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/94257/smoking-with-eucalyptus

philincalifornia
June 17, 2016 10:01 pm

Right, I’m going to organize a protest outside Chez Panisse, the fabulous and historic restaurant in Berkeley next week. Who’s in? Can we do it at 2:00pm, so I’ve had time to have a wonderful Pizzetta or Calzone, from their wonderful wood-fired oven, for lunch.
Thinking of the lunches I’ve had there over the years, I might be a no-show, finishing up some excellent wine inside there, but go ahead without me please. We only have 90 days to save the planet.

gnomish
Reply to  philincalifornia
June 18, 2016 8:48 am

Harold & Kumar Go to White Castle

simple-touriste
June 17, 2016 10:07 pm

Will someone think of the children?
Will they know what a pizza should taste like?

ozspeaksup
Reply to  simple-touriste
June 18, 2016 2:51 am

oh lordy..Im already swearing at the lack of real taste and ingredients kids and young adults now suffer from..
they have never tasted proper scalded cream on fresh home made bread with home made apricot jam..or fresh fruit from the tree not from a cold store.
packet muck and frozen stuff full of gums fillers n soyfakery , jelly goo for sauces etc
cake that tastes like nothing- choc flavouring not real cocoa in it. coloured with beetroot ffs!
even vanilla is being faked by wood and gmo synth, honey chem flavour not honey..the list is growing daily.
older gen saying they have lost their sense of taste..probably havent, the damn food substitute is why they cant taste anything…there is none.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  simple-touriste
June 18, 2016 3:49 am

Most people do not know what real pizza is supposed to taste like.

bill johnston
Reply to  Tom in Florida
June 18, 2016 9:32 am

The first question to answer is how do we define “real” pizza?

Eugene WR Gallun
Reply to  Tom in Florida
June 18, 2016 10:24 am

bill johnston — We need to create a computer model of “real pizza”. We can alter ingredients, cooking methods, etc. and arrive at the perfect pizza. No real world data like taste tasting will be needed.
It is only the beginning. I can see “the culinary art” being renamed “the culinary science” — a science that is always settled. — Eugene WR Gallun

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Tom in Florida
June 19, 2016 6:54 am

Eugene, you forgot to add in the government grant request. BS “science” has no place without government grants paying the way. It is the reason for their existence.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Tom in Florida
June 19, 2016 7:05 am

Bill,
Real pizza is a delicate balance between the sauce, the mozz and the crust. Sauce should not be spicy and overpowering but rather light and tomato tasting, the mozz must not be laid on too thick so that the oil in the sauce can filter through, the crust must be salted, light and fluffy but well charred around the edges (only coal fired ovens can do the trick). You should wake up in the night thirsty if the crust is prepared correctly. Dried oregano is ALWAYS sprinkled on BEFORE cooking. Corn meal is used to prevent the dough from sticking to the peel not flour. The biggest problem with pizza these days is under cooking the dough. If I wanted a soft, doughy flavored crust I would go to Dunkin Donuts and get a fritter. Finally, ham and pineapple DO NOT belong on any pizza!

lee
June 17, 2016 10:08 pm

‘Dr Kumar continued, “There are more than 7.5 hectares of Eucalyptus forest being burned every month by pizzerias and steakhouses. A total of over 307,000 tonnes of wood is burned each year in pizzerias.’
But burning wood is good isn’t it because it is renewable? Or else scrap wood chips for DRAX.

MfK
Reply to  lee
June 18, 2016 1:23 am

Back in the 1970s, the anti-nuclear crowd had a slogan: “Split wood, not atoms.”
They got their wish, and, predictably, don’t like that outcome either.

Iron Mike
Reply to  MfK
June 22, 2016 2:53 pm

You are absolutely right MFK. Greenies don’t care about the environment, they just hate people middle class and poor people, because their tastes are different from upper middle class Environuts

Eugene WR Gallun
Reply to  lee
June 18, 2016 10:34 am

lee — Haha! Good point! The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. Or even care. — Eugene WR Gallun

June 17, 2016 10:12 pm

just to be clear, we are talking about air pollution and not about AGW.

Vuil
Reply to  chaamjamal
June 17, 2016 10:15 pm

It’s all the same to the green madmen.

Jon
Reply to  chaamjamal
June 18, 2016 7:47 am

But doesn’t wood have Carbon in it?

SMC
Reply to  Jon
June 18, 2016 9:30 am

Yes but, so does cheese, and flour and peperoni and tomato sauce.

AussieBear.
June 17, 2016 10:25 pm

Jesus F*ing Christ. Give them data (real or modeled) and they will create whatever information or rather
press releases from it.

Annie
Reply to  AussieBear.
June 18, 2016 2:55 am

AussieBear, while I agree with the gist of your post I do not like the start of it. We could do without the blasphemy thanks.

PiperPaul
Reply to  Annie
June 18, 2016 4:31 am

Crikey! I hope God isn’t angry or we could get some bad weather.

toorightmate
Reply to  Annie
June 18, 2016 5:17 am

I’m with Annie.
And, without fail, we must stop all those people in Africa, India and China who are recklessly cooking their food on wood fires.

BallBounces
Reply to  Annie
June 18, 2016 7:28 am

+1

Hugs
Reply to  Annie
June 18, 2016 11:12 am

If he’s offended, he knows what to do without you telling.

Juan Slayton
Reply to  Anthony Watts
June 18, 2016 9:08 am

just for the record…I’m with Annie also.

June 17, 2016 10:26 pm

Is there such a thing as a small-scale electrostatic precipitator and could a pizzeria afford to run one?

Reply to  Richard A. O'Keefe
June 18, 2016 2:59 am

Yes, many forced air heaters in the US use them to scrub dust out of the air. I know Honeywell make them.

snopercod
Reply to  Bartleby
June 18, 2016 4:19 am

The home units don’t work. I installed one and after two years, there was zero dust on the collector plates.

John Harmsworth
Reply to  Bartleby
June 18, 2016 8:09 am

An electronic air filter works very well-if it’s working. Not made for flue temps though

Reply to  John Harmsworth
June 18, 2016 7:05 pm

Isn’t the essential mechanism the same though? Certainly this is a “scaled down” example that might be applied to a wood fired oven? Not a commercial scale coal plant, just an oven? I have three catalytic woodstoves that might all benefit from this so I’m sort of invested.
Think for a moment about a commercial oven hood. The distance between the blower and the intake is variable by design, I had a hood over my stove that had a 30′ flue between the intake and outlet. By the time the exhaust gas makes it to the fan, the temperature is nearly ambient.
I see very little reason the same technology used to collect dust from a household furnace couldn’t be adapted for use in a pizza parlor. But that’s just me? Flame on. 🙂

Reply to  Bartleby
June 18, 2016 7:36 pm

I installed one and after two years, there was zero dust on the collector plates.
All I can suggest Snoper is something is wrong with those collector plates, most likely you have a ground problem.
The way they work is through a high voltage direct current static charge. Any ground in that system will cause them to fail, and the ground for a high voltage DC system doesn’t need to be physically attached or in physical contact; that charge actually bleeds off into the atmosphere over time even if it’s completely isolated. If it isn’t correctly installed it won’t work at all. It can jump an air gap to a ground that’s too close to it.
This isn’t to say they don’t work, but they do have to be installed and maintained correctly.

Jean Parisot
Reply to  Richard A. O'Keefe
June 18, 2016 6:55 am

a better stove design that burned more completely.

bill johnston
Reply to  Jean Parisot
June 18, 2016 10:42 am

How about one of them solar ovens some people think the undeveloped folks should use?
[Because pizza is ordered after dark? .mod]

Ernest Bush
Reply to  Jean Parisot
June 18, 2016 3:25 pm

johnston – How about they get left alone and be allowed to continue using wood burning pizza ovens and grills. The solar ovens for developing countries in Africa prevent health problems for children and women and gives them free time to do things like – oh, education.
There are probably few undeveloped countries left in the world and the rest are developing faster than we realize. But Africa still has large regions where tribal villages are the norm. Solar cookers are a good fit for those places until faster, better, cooking methods become available.

Reply to  Jean Parisot
June 18, 2016 7:18 pm

“a better stove design that burned more completely”
And they’ve been around for decades, Vermont Castings make a high efficiency catalytic stove that surpasses the design of every pellet (forced air induction) stove produced. This is old tech. No difficulties.
There are questionable reasons institutions like the EPA have paid little (really no) attention to them over the past 30 years and they actually do have something in common with the vested interests of “environmental” interests who invested in the wrong technology. It’s pure protectionism.

Reply to  Jean Parisot
June 18, 2016 7:20 pm

[Because pizza is ordered after dark? .mod]
And by their darkness ye shall know them! The Pizza Vampires!

Reply to  Jean Parisot
June 18, 2016 7:23 pm

“environmental” activists not “environmental” interests who invested in the wrong technology …

June 17, 2016 10:37 pm

This is – literally – the money quote
“the impacts of emissions from wood/coal burning and meat-cooking in pizzerias and restaurants are yet to be quantified”
So they have no data, and can’t say if there’s any problem.
Presumably they’re hoping someone will give them the funds to go and eat steak and pizza in Sao Paolo for a few months while they consider the matter.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  richardbriscoe
June 18, 2016 1:45 am

Oh yes, the money quote!

Reply to  Patrick MJD
June 18, 2016 7:54 am

“…there had not been much consideration of some of the unaccounted sources of emissions. These include wood burning in thousands of pizza shops or domestic waste burning.”
I believe I truly understand why they would combine the making of food with the proper handling of waste material.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Patrick MJD
June 19, 2016 5:14 am

It, waste food, usually goes to feed pigs. No need for landfill.

Reply to  richardbriscoe
June 18, 2016 3:08 am

Good thing I read through the comments before posting mine, you beat me to it.
It just irritates the crap out of me newspapers run nonsense like this as science or even real journalism. If you didn’t measure it, it didn’t happen. I hit that sentence and all the alarms went off, all the needles swung into the red and the lights started flashing.
The really sad part about it is the folks who pick up stuff like this and start repeating as gospel. When you go back and point out it’s all conjecture with no empirical foundation they ask you who you are to criticize a real scientist! Like there was something to it! It’s horrible.

June 17, 2016 11:13 pm

So wonky math hear,
First, they talk about 1,000,000 pizzas per day, but it turns out only 1800 of them are from wood fired stoves, less than 0.2% of the total. So sounds like wood fired pizzas are actually pretty hard to find. Then comes the claim that 7.5 Hectares of Eucalyptus are being burned every month to support the wood fired pizza industry. Well, there about 11,000,000 hectares of eucalyptus under cultivation in Brazil, and every month 0.00007% of the crop gets burned for pizza. Yes, 0.00007%! What happens to the rest? Well, it get turns into pulp, paper, oil and charcoal, the latter two being ultimately burned for all sorts of purposes, only a teeny tiny fraction of them being to make pizza. So if burning the stuff is a problem, its not burning it for pizzas that is the main issue.

JohnKnight
Reply to  davidmhoffer
June 18, 2016 1:39 am

It’s the main issue for certain pizzerias in Sao Paulo . . which the inhabitants might want to visit real soon, to see what all the fuss is about ; )

SocietalNorm
Reply to  davidmhoffer
June 18, 2016 2:48 am

“The Latin American megacity of São Paulo is the only megacity worldwide that uses a much cleaner bio-fuel driven fleet. With about 10% of Brazil’s total population, Sao Paulo’s inhabitants fill their vehicles with a biofuel comprising of sugarcane ethanol, gasohol (75% gasoline and 25% ethanol) and soya diesel.”
All of this sugarcane ethanol comes with a tremendous amount of environmentally disastrous costs. The cutting/burning of the rainforest in order to create the sugarcane plantations and, if you are worried about particulates, the burning of the sugarcane fields (which is being phased out) are much bigger problems than pizza.

ozspeaksup
Reply to  SocietalNorm
June 18, 2016 2:57 am

yeah but..the cessation of burning in cane fields then allows the bugs rodents and disease tally to rise
and the ash was good for the soils..
yes you can compost some, but in Aus at least what they do is BURN it IN furnaces to power the processing and the local homes, at best.sell other off as compressed garden mulch to down sth dwellers at premium prices.
old fashioned me remembers a decent autumn/end of harvest burn smelt wonderful and killed soil nasties, and knocked off the weed seeds. smokes the mice to death also for bonus points. we didnt have such bad plagues and I suspect it also helped knock off the Locust eggs in soils as well

Gringo
Reply to  SocietalNorm
June 20, 2016 10:58 am

All of this sugarcane ethanol comes with a tremendous amount of environmentally disastrous costs. The cutting/burning of the rainforest in order to create the sugarcane plantations
Due to the laterite soil found in the Amazonian rainforest, very few long-term mass cultivation attempts there have been successful. In general, fields cleared from the Amazon rainforest to grow cassava/manioc tend to last only about 5 years. The locals abandon the field and then burn down some more forest. The exhausted manioc field then reverts back to rainforest.Sugar cane cultivation doesn’t come from areas that were formerly rainforest.

Almost 90 percent of Brazilian sugarcane production takes place in South-Central Brazil, with the remainder grown in Northeastern Brazil. Both producing regions are located some 2,000 to 2,500 km (1,240 to 1,550 miles) away from the Amazon. That is roughly the distance between New York City and Dallas, or Paris and Moscow. The Amazon region simply does not offer appropriate growing conditions for sugarcane and would never be a target for expanded production, regardless of government regulation.

FYI.

Gringo
Reply to  SocietalNorm
June 20, 2016 1:32 pm

All of this sugarcane ethanol comes with a tremendous amount of environmentally disastrous costs. The cutting/burning of the rainforest in order to create the sugarcane plantations.
The link in my reply got messed up. so I am reposting the link.
The point is that sugarcane cultivation doesn’t come from former rainforest.
http://sugarcane.org/sustainability/preserving-biodiversity-and-precious-resources

PiperPaul
Reply to  davidmhoffer
June 18, 2016 4:38 am

Yes, but everything must be carefully rationed (rationing overseen by the green mob environmentalists, of course) because we’re eventually going to run out of it (‘it’ meaning ‘everything’). Well, except Green bullshit – that’ll never be exhausted. There’s no “waste” or human activity too small to be micromanaged by the self-appointed custodians of the planet. They’re literally saving us all! We should be thanking, no, worshipping! them!

brians356
June 17, 2016 11:36 pm

That coal-fired pizzaria in Texas is only copying the oldest and most venerated pizza parlors in New York City, where it is claimed by pizza connoisseurs that only coal can properly flavor the true New York style pizza. There remain only a handful of parlors grandfathered in to still use coal, because of the air quality issues.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  brians356
June 18, 2016 3:51 am

Frank Pepe’s in New Haven CT (the original) has been burning coal in its oven since 1938.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm good.

Tom Moran
Reply to  Tom in Florida
June 19, 2016 6:14 pm

Yes! The best pizza in the country, cooked with coal fired ovens, is often frequented by climate alarmist central at Yale. If you’re in New Haven, I recommend 1 bacon pie, 1 white clam and garlic, washed down with a Genesee Cream Ale.

Craig
Reply to  brians356
June 18, 2016 6:30 am

Compared to places like Patsy’s, Juliana’s, and other great coal-fired places in NYC, Russo’s doesn’t even rise to the level of “low-grade dog food.”

SMC
Reply to  Craig
June 18, 2016 8:42 am

Uh oh…Is that the first shot in the Pizza Wars? 🙂

Philip Schaeffer
June 17, 2016 11:43 pm

Of course the statement that these people are claiming that wood fired pizza is bad only exists in Anthonys headline. The scientist and their report said no such thing.
Seems like quite a reasonable report to me overall. Air pollution in areas of dense population can be a serious problem, and it’s important to understand all factors.
They aren’t attacking pizzerias, just pointing out that having thousands of businesses in a city burning wood, has and effect that should be understood and taken into account.
davidmhoffer said: “So wonky math hear,
First, they talk about 1,000,000 pizzas per day, but it turns out only 1800 of them are from wood fired stoves, less than 0.2% of the total. So sounds like wood fired pizzas are actually pretty hard to find.”
First the numbers are in Anthonys words, not the scientists. That part wasn’t a quote. Second, it was 800, not 1800. Third, what’s wonky about their math. Either 800 pizzas a day equals the wood usage claimed, or it doesn’t. The total number of pizzas made doesn’t make any difference to whether or not this claim is correct.
Also, the overall carbon balance of using wood isn’t the only important thing, especially in cities. Particulate emissions are a bigger problem in a city.
[Mr. Schaeffer,
1. I stand by the headline, despite your spin. They do in fact malign pizza in their press release saying in their headline “The pizza slice that comes at a price”. Clearly they malign not just wood fired pizza, but all pizza, and even single slices. I deemed their headline inaccurate, so created one that quoted their exact words: ‘damaging to the urban environment’. Tough noogies if you don’t like my headline, but they made a clear claim.
2. “They aren’t attacking pizzerias, just pointing out that having thousands of businesses in a city burning wood, has and effect that should be understood and taken into account.” Oh, please. The word “pizzeria” appears eight times in the article. If they just wanted to make it about wood, they could have said something generic like “restaurants with wood fired ovens”. They didn’t. Your point fails.
3. “First the numbers are in Anthonys words, not the scientists. That part wasn’t a quote.” Gosh, can you read? The article is a press release from the UNIVERSITY OF SURREY which I quoted in entirety and did not edit. I made no numbers of any kind. You can read it word for word right here: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-06/uos-tps061716.php
Your purpose here seems clear now. You’ll need to retract your statements before commenting further. – Anthony]

Philip Schaeffer
Reply to  Philip Schaeffer
June 18, 2016 7:38 am

1: What is wrong with pointing out that everything has a price, and the case of things that cause a lot of wood to be burnt in large cities, that we should consider the impact?
2: The number of times a word appears is now how we judge whether or not a report demonizes the thing that the word refers to? That’s nuts.
3: It was not made clear that the article posted was written by the University of Surrey.
“From the ‘those are fighting words’ department and the UNIVERSITY OF SURREY. Just wait until they get a load of the “coal fired pizza” in Texas.”
It sounded like you were reporting on the study, not reproducing a copy of the press release. You didn’t actually state that it was a press release from them.
[Mr. Schaeffer, I’m disappointed that you can’t admit to your own mistakes, but not surprised.
1. You claim I’m the only one saying pizza is bad. You’ve now switched the argument to say what’s “what is wrong with (them) pointing out…”. Sigh.
2. No it’s not “nuts”. You simply lost the argument, and don’t mention the main point about that if the article was only about wood burning, they could have simply said something like “wood oven restaurants”. Your point and counterpoint both fail.
3. It says right at the top UNIVERSITY OF SURREY, just like I do for all press releases. I have the source in BOLD. You’ve been around here long enough to know this. It also has their headline, their subheadline, and the ending ### a signature of press releases seen thousands of time on WUWT I never end my self-written articles with ###, unless it is a press release of my own. This and -30- is a standard way of ending a press release. Your were just too busy trying to refute the article to read it carefully and got caught up in your own mistakes.
I’m not going to get into a time-wasting pissing match with you because you misread the article and won’t admit it. Nobody else seems to have a problem confusing the source. You’ve been on permanent moderation for awhile. This thread disruption with comments like these is why. – Anthony]

Philip Schaeffer
Reply to  Philip Schaeffer
June 18, 2016 8:08 am

1: Pointing out that everything has a price, is not the same as calling those things bad. If wood fired pizza ovens contribute to air pollution in cities, then the effect needs to be considered and understood.
2: That the article uses wood fired ovens as an example does not mean they are demonizing them.
3: You didn’t make it clear that you were reproducing a press release when you said: “From the ‘those are fighting words’ department and the UNIVERSITY OF SURREY. Just wait until they get a load of the “coal fired pizza” in Texas.”
I thought that meant you were writing an article about their actual report, not quoting the press release verbatim.
“It says right at the top UNIVERSITY OF SURREY, just like I do for all press releases. I have the source in BOLD. You’ve been around here long enough to know this.”
I didn’t know this, and to my untrained eye it looked like you were prefacing your thoughts on the actual report from the university, not just posting their press release, which you didn’t link to.

John Harmsworth
Reply to  Philip Schaeffer
June 18, 2016 8:24 am

And now this from the University of the Deliberately Obtuse!

Philip Schaeffer
Reply to  Philip Schaeffer
June 18, 2016 8:43 am

Oh well, it’s your blog, so if you say end of discussion, well, that’s it, but I stand by my statements.

Philip Schaeffer
Reply to  Philip Schaeffer
June 18, 2016 8:17 pm

I’ll admit I was wrong about the article being in your words, but that was what I genuinely thought, and you could have stated that specifically rather than leaving it to me to infer that from my experience with your writings. Without that information it could well be inferred that that you were referring to a report from the university, rather than a press release from them.
[nobody else had the problem /mod]

Reply to  Philip Schaeffer
June 19, 2016 10:07 am

Mr Schaeffer;
In your first ill considered salvo you insisted that I had quoted 1800 pizzas per day when the actual number is 800. You are wrong. The article says 800 pizzas per day for in restaurant serving, and an additional 1000 pizzas per day for take home. You’d be well served to double check your own reading comprehension before pissing on others.

RexAlan
June 18, 2016 12:11 am

And then they came for the wood fired pizzerias.

Another Ian
June 18, 2016 12:18 am

I somehow doubt that sun dried pizzas will be a replacement hit

David Chappell
June 18, 2016 12:19 am

What are “secondary aerosols”, please?

michael hart
Reply to  David Chappell
June 18, 2016 4:44 am

What are “secondary aerosols”, please?

I would guess those are airborne particles derived from the burning wood.
The primary aerosols would be tiny airborne particles of pizza, a well known environmental hazard which the EPA regulates quite strictly.

E.M.Smith
Editor
Reply to  David Chappell
June 18, 2016 6:48 am

I would guess they mean secondary source. I.e. not their major source of vehicles.

John Harmsworth
Reply to  David Chappell
June 18, 2016 8:26 am

They’re given off by whatever the primary arseholes burn to make pizza

old engineer
Reply to  David Chappell
June 18, 2016 1:12 pm

David Chappell-
“secondary aerosols” are small; “liquid” or solid particles formed in the atmosphere when sunlight causes reactions of NOx and VOCs (volatile organic carbons, which are complex hydrocarbons). They are called “secondary” because they are formed in the atmosphere, and are not emitted from some source like an automobile or power plant.

Dr. Strangelove
June 18, 2016 12:46 am

7.5 hectares of burned forest a month is nothing. They can always replant and reforest. That’s how commercial forestry works. But they should report how many hectares of forest were burned and forever turned into sugarcane plantations for their massive biofuel program? I’m sure the seasonal burning of sugarcane plantations emit more air pollution than pizza wood stoves. Scrap the biofuel program. Just use LPG and recycled cooking oil for cars.

E.M.Smith
Editor
Reply to  Dr. Strangelove
June 18, 2016 6:46 am

Brazil has massive offshore oil. Think Saudi scale.. They did the ethanol thing in the ’70s, then discovered the oil… and have been slowly drifting back to petrol since…
So no need to burn forests, or sugarcane, or LPG for cars. Gasoline is fine and available.
Note the mention of 75% gas 25% ethanol. In the original ethanol program it was 100% ethanol in new cars. Then they added 10% ethanol to gasoline for old cars. Now, with flex fuel cars, the mix can shift even more.
BTW, my ’79 carburetor car does poorly on gasahol. It loves alcohol free ‘boat gas’.

Walt
Reply to  E.M.Smith
June 18, 2016 5:01 pm

Clearly your car is a concerned about alcoholism.

Warren in New Zealand
June 18, 2016 1:09 am

Wait till they start to work out all the wood fired ovens from the Etruscans, or before, up till now, then we can start on the potters from pre-history.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Warren in New Zealand
June 18, 2016 1:36 am

I lived in Featherston, in the Wairarapa just north of Wellington, New Zealand, and the term “pea souper” was relevant sometimes during the winter as the air was heavy with wood burning smoke. Fortunately it was rare as it was usually very windy there. But still…you could see the whole town blanketed in smoke.

Gary Hladik
Reply to  Patrick MJD
June 18, 2016 2:19 am

Lots of wood-fired pizza parlors in Wairarapa? 🙂

ozspeaksup
Reply to  Patrick MJD
June 18, 2016 3:00 am

yeah and Adelaide was the same for some late winter afternoons too, industrial zone all the way to the port, plus wood fires..and the towns in a “bowl” so if the winds werent moving it did “inversion layer” n hang round
oddly? I dont remember anyone having asthma or other issues or even complaining at all
that was late 60s to mid 70s

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Patrick MJD
June 18, 2016 3:51 am

No but main domestic space heating is provided via wood burning and that causes significant air quality issues. The odd wood fired pizza place would not.

Manfred
Reply to  Patrick MJD
June 19, 2016 1:44 pm

Wellington – allegedly the windiest city in the World. Meridian Energy even claims a capacity factor for its wind turbine of 49%. I hardly think pollution is a problem. So, please define and quantify the terms, “problem,” “sometimes during the winter,” “relevant” and “rare.”

Jon
Reply to  Warren in New Zealand
June 18, 2016 7:53 am

Quite so. I wonder if the rise in number of pizzas eaten parallels the rise of Industrialisation globally? If so,we know what’s REALLY causing global warming!

snedly arkus
June 18, 2016 1:10 am

Let’s not forget all the forests being cut down, especially in the southern US, to supply “renewable” fuel power plants with wood pellets in England and other countries.

June 18, 2016 1:19 am

I think the concern expressed in the article can be justified.
This is not about climate change, and it is not about burning of a substantial amount of wood.
However, wood burning is a serious source of air pollution. Globally it is the single source causing most deaths, especially from indoor air pollution due to lack of chimneys, but also from unfiltered outdoor pollution, as is the case here.
The emissions from power stations fired with wood pellets is beyond compare cleaner than the unfiltered emissions from stoves.
This is about the very real problem of big city air pollution, which we should take seriously
Jan

Jon
Reply to  Jan Kjetil Andersen
June 18, 2016 7:55 am

They could always put a filter on it.

ldd
Reply to  Jan Kjetil Andersen
June 18, 2016 9:17 am

When they get serious about what our climate is about, then I’ll think about not using wood to heat since we can’t afford their heavy carbon taxed electric prices in our local. If we heated in winters with electricity, our hydro bills would be more per month than the house mortgage payments are. We know this is fact since we ran out of wood in winter for one month. Current bills are $330-$350 of which we actually use about $100-120, rest is GOV-Carbon taxes. One 5 ft base board heater costs at least $150 per month- counts the rooms in avg home and do the math – that was a quote from Ontario HYDRO 3 yrs ago, prices have gone way up since then too. Ontario, Canada.
They’ll have to put a heck of a lot of people in jail here if they start outlawing our wood stoves when we can’t afford their hydro bills. PS, we would use our electric heat if it was affordable. Future plan, install n-gas furnace.

Manfred
Reply to  ldd
June 19, 2016 1:53 pm

This is referred to in Greenista circles as the ‘double benefit’. Cream the profits and taxes on energy and reduce the population through the incidence of cold deaths.

Robert from oz
June 18, 2016 1:22 am

You can prise the wood fired pizza slice from my cold dead hand . You nut jobs !

Patrick MJD
June 18, 2016 1:42 am

I would be OK with particulates from wood burning providing food establishments than PM2.5 and PM5 particulates from poorly maintained diesel engines and high sulfur diesel fuel in Africa along with their open, charcoal fired, fires. Want to see what real bad air quality is? Go and spend a night in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.

MfK
Reply to  Patrick MJD
June 18, 2016 1:52 am

No, thank you. I once entered a contest in which first prize was a night in Addis Ababa, and second prize was two weeks in Addis Ababa.

AussieBear.
Reply to  MfK
June 18, 2016 2:37 am

Had to read that twice. Now THAT is funny!

Patrick MJD
Reply to  MfK
June 18, 2016 3:46 am

It’s not all that bad, not as bad a Slough, UK. But air quality is, and you can see it more “clearly” at night.

toorightmate
Reply to  Patrick MJD
June 18, 2016 5:01 pm

Particulates (including dust) are soluble in darkness.

MfK
June 18, 2016 1:48 am

I must really take exception to the remarks about “looking at the ammo inventory” and “locking up” the nut jobs. That puts us on the level of the the nut jobs, who must resort to force rather than have a provable case.
In this instance, the air pollution may be a very real problem. I lived in Southern California’s Inland Empire from 1980 to 2008, and in that time saw the population quadruple, and the air quality improve significantly due to anti-pollution efforts. It’s difficult to convey how “significantly” that improvement was, but it was enormous. There was a saying when I first arrived: “The mountains go on vacation for the summer,” which referred to the fact that for several months of the year, one couldn’t see the mountains because of the smog. I’ll never forget the first time I saw the mountains while driving to Canoga Park, having driven the same route for months and not knowing they were there.
The chief culprit had been the Kaiser Steel plant in Fontana, California. They ran coke ovens which put enormous amounts of sulfur-laden hydrocarbons into the local atmosphere. The geography of the region trapped this awful stuff in a way that never allowed it to disperse. Despite valiant efforts on the part of Kaiser to clean up those ovens, they were never able to improve the situation, and finally shut them down. Air quality improved over night.
The same may (or may not) be true in Sao Paulo, but to automatically respond with underlying threats of force is just bizarre. They may have a genuine problem, and it may be anthropogenic – as it absolutely was in Southern California. But they may also not care about that problem, trading their desire for pizza for their desire for cleaner air. That’s really the issue. And an academic debate is a good venue in which to start.
Having said all that, it’s delicious to see the “greens” hoist on their own pitards…

Robert from oz
Reply to  MfK
June 18, 2016 3:19 am

Made no mention of violence , but what part of nut job is upsetting ?

Reply to  MfK
June 18, 2016 3:28 am

I think the outraged response, at least on my part, is the relative impact of wood burning pizza ovens on Sao Paulo air quality and the admitted lack of any hard evidence to suggest such an absurd claim might be of any real import.
I understand particulate pollution is a real problem in some areas (and I had the chance to visit L.A. in the 60’s to witness it for myself). But you have to admit the alarmism over Pizza ovens is classic 🙂 I certainly wasn’t belittling honest and well documented research on the factors influencing urban air quality.

TA
Reply to  MfK
June 18, 2016 7:12 am

MfK wrote: “I lived in Southern California’s Inland Empire from 1980 to 2008, and in that time saw the population quadruple, and the air quality improve significantly due to anti-pollution efforts. It’s difficult to convey how “significantly” that improvement was, but it was enormous. There was a saying when I first arrived: “The mountains go on vacation for the summer,” which referred to the fact that for several months of the year, one couldn’t see the mountains because of the smog. I’ll never forget the first time I saw the mountains while driving to Canoga Park, having driven the same route for months and not knowing they were there.”
I was out in Los Angeles in the early 1970’s and the air quality was very bad. Yellow and Orange skies and visibility very limited. You could smell it in the air.
The improvements have been dramatic, and welcome.

TA
Reply to  MfK
June 18, 2016 7:14 am

BTW, I think the people who were talking about “getting out the ammo” were just kidding. Noone is going to take away their pizzas anyway, so there is no need. 🙂

June 18, 2016 2:04 am

There are no inductive inferences.
Karl Popper

JustAnOldGuy
June 18, 2016 2:15 am

Guess what. Your charcoal grill is next along with camp fires, incense sticks and probably even the wooden matches used to light them. Taking the human race back to pre-industrial times is one thing; forcing us back to the point where we don’t use cooking fires is another.

Annie
Reply to  JustAnOldGuy
June 18, 2016 2:59 am

Hmm…where does that leave Drax I wonder?

June 18, 2016 2:18 am

Biomass burning in the Netherlands is good for half the “renewable” electricity generation.

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